FINALLY! Biden goes after Israel!!!
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 19, 2024 17:55
VIEWED: 9512
PAGE 1 of 2
IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME!!! 
Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100310/pl_nm/us_usa_israel_biden_23
Biden scolds Israel over settlement plan
Vice President Joe Biden publicly scolded Israel on Wednesday over a Jewish settlement plan, saying it was undermining peace efforts after Palestinians agreed to U.S.-mediated talks.
"It is incumbent on both parties to build an atmosphere of support for negotiations and not to complicate them," Biden said in a media statement alongside Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank city of Ramallah.
"Yesterday the decision by the Israeli government to advance planning for new housing units in East Jerusalem undermines that very trust, the trust that we need right now in order to begin ... profitable negotiations," Biden said.
In Jerusalem, an Israeli cabinet minister apologized for what he termed "real embarrassment" caused to Biden by the news on Tuesday that Israel would erect 1,600 settler homes in an area of the occupied West Bank it annexed to the holy city.
Israel's announcement of the project changed the tone of a visit in which Biden had focused on reassuring Israelis that President Barack Obama was committed to their security in the face of a possible Iranian nuclear threat.
andQuote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100309/pl_afp/mideastusdiplomacybiden
Biden slams Israel settlement plan
The controversial move angered Biden, who "showed up 1.5 hours late for dinner tonight at (Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's) residence," a White House press office statement said.
"I condemn the decision by the government of Israel to advance planning for new housing units in east Jerusalem," Biden said in a separate statement.
"The substance and timing of the announcement, particularly with the launching of proximity talks, is precisely the kind of step that undermines the trust we need right now and runs counter to the constructive discussions that I?ve had here in Israel."
The Israeli decision also infuriated the Palestinians, who consider settlements to be a major hurdle to reach peace and want occupied east Jerusalem as the capital of their promised state.
ANDQuote:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/mar/10/biden-says-palestinians-deserv
Biden says Palestinians deserve 'viable' state
Vice President Joe Biden said Wednesday the Palestinians deserve a "viable" independent state with contiguous territory, seeking to reassure them of U.S. support after Israel announced plans to expand a Jewish neighborhood in disputed east Jerusalem.
The Israeli move has overshadowed Biden's visit, meant to promote a new round of U.S.-led negotiations, and drawn Palestinian accusations that Israel is not serious about peace. Israel apologized for embarrassing Biden with the timing of its announcement, but made clear it has no intention of reversing its plan.
Capping a day of meetings with Palestinian leaders, Biden told his hosts that the U.S. is committed to brokering a final peace deal - something that has eluded U.S. leaders for decades.
"The United States pledges to play an active as well as a sustainable role in these talks," Biden said. He stressed the Palestinians deserve an independent state that is "viable and contiguous," meaning the territory should not be broken up by Israeli settlement enclaves.
It was a clear message to Israel that the U.S. expects a broad withdrawal from the West Bank as part of a deal.
e-viable-state/news-breaking/
"Scolds", "Slams", "Condemns"--YES!!! (how do you make the text HUGE??) 
It's a start, it's a start, it's a start, it's a start...
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "He
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It is nothing
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/03/20103101248178104
75.html
'Nothing fruitful'
Marwan Bishara, Al Jazeera's senior political analyst, said nothing new came out of the news conference, especially in the light of Tuesday's condemnation of Israel.
"Aside from repeating more of the same familiarities, nothing fruitful was said," Bishara said."None of this condemnation is going to go anywhere and the Palestinians know that."
Nour Odeh, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Ramallah, said aides of the Palestinian president summed up the "vague press statement as a moment of crisis".
"Palestinians are requiring action on the ground," she said. "What the Palestinians are saying is thank you for the condemnation and now what!
"[They are saying] these plans can only be reversed if the US uses its leverage to push Israel into retracting the plans - and actions."
Talk is cheap, especially the amount of talk we have seen in the past decades
Biden, Obama all they do is talk
While Bush and Cheney were sociopaths at least they were honest about it
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"Nukem till they glow!"
-USAF 520th Aircraft Generation Squadron motto
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
"Nukem till they glow!"
-USAF 520th Aircraft Generation Squadron motto
wtf?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/520th_Fighter-Interceptor_Squadron
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Anyone know how much money is sent by the US to the Israelies?
Im not talking individual donations.... Im talking about how much of our tax money is sent to Israel.
Ive heard all sorts of figures. So Im actually curious.
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Goodness, you expected otherwise from PN?? Remember who he hates more than anyone else in the world?
Wulf, to answer your question (hang onto your hat!)
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel
Grand Total
$84,854,827,200
Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000
Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200
Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_the_US_give_Israel
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Has he changed his spots ?
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No, he's just not buying into the "Israel can do no wrong" idiocy our government's been following for far too long. Huzzah!
I hear no lies or changing of spots; Israel is not related to Iraq; Israel IS our biggest ally in the Middle East, the ties between Jews worldwide is just as strong as he described. I don't know what he thinks being a "zionist" means, but I don't think it means what he thinks.
...and he's a politician, for heaven's sake, what do you expect?
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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if there is a subject that i am even less rational on than gun control, it is israel. hence, i forbear comment.
however, i thought know ya'll should know, that somewhere out there, a kosher beast minces, gnashes his teeth, and dreams of eating his matzah with the blood of the fallen.
lol joos rule the world lol joos pwn
that is all.
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Ooops, double post...apologies.
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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I got nothing against Israel, please know. I'm just so sick to death of America backing them no matter what they do--and they've been guilty of atrocities every bit as bad as the Palestinians from time to time.
I just want fairness, and I'm all for Israel's survival and flourishing, as long as it's not at the expense of the innocent!
And omygawd, don't tell people here you're Jewish...PN will crawl through the ether and strangle you!!! ;o)
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I got nothing against Israel, please know. I'm just so sick to death of America backing them no matter what they do--and they've been guilty of atrocities every bit as bad as the Palestinians from time to time.
I just want fairness, and I'm all for Israel's survival and flourishing, as long as it's not at the expense of the innocent!
And omygawd, don't tell people here you're Jewish...PN will crawl through the ether and strangle you!!! ;o)
Many of the Jewish people I know feel the same way... Israel has been built on the suffering of others, and continues to make others suffer for whatever purpose
Hell, many Israelis are against the acts of their own government... I have posted some of their reactions before.
But the US doesn't change what they do, complain publicly and continue to support them with arms and money
to the point where most people don't really care if Israel survives at all. Perhaps the idea of a religious based state is wrong, perhaps it should be ripped apart and replaced with a more secular government that is inclusive of ALL the citizens of the area.
But that is talk, as everything the US has done up to now is talk.
If Israels actions are crimes, and the US keeps giving them money and guns... then the US shares those crimes... and that striped to the bone is why their is a war of terror going on right now.
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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i know, i'm jewish by ancestry, but also a militant, mouth-frothing atheist. i think the idea of a jewish state is dumb, as dumb as the idea of a christian or muslim state. frustrates me, though. there's isn't a single secular or inclusive state in the region, and suggesting that israel ought to be one where Saudi Arabia isn't, is sorta weird. and yes, i get the colonialism angle, too. israel is, however, a fact on the ground. and no side has a monopoly on atrocities, sure.
however, its really hard to keep these thoughts seperate from my identity, and not feel like someone questioning israel's actions, or our unqualified support of them, isn't part of the ancient game of jew-baiting. i know that's not where ya'll are coming from, though...
with the possible exception of PN. PN, do not strangle me. I have hella many Mossad bodyguards, like all joos.
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Good for you, Mincing! Although I think that ought to be 'do not TRY to strangle me'! If you see something ugly ooozing out of your computer connection, SMACK IT! Then again, he's probably a coward anyway, just likes to mouth off and act insane...tho' I'm not sure that last part is an act...
Trust me, doll, I've got nothing against any religion, except that they're organized religions 
--I rarely know what denomination anyone is, or care, unless they make an issue out of it (and NOBODY prosletizes like born-againers!).
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
i know, i'm jewish by ancestry, but also a militant, mouth-frothing atheist. i think the idea of a jewish state is dumb, as dumb as the idea of a christian or muslim state. frustrates me, though. there's isn't a single secular or inclusive state in the region, and suggesting that israel ought to be one where Saudi Arabia isn't, is sorta weird. and yes, i get the colonialism angle, too. israel is, however, a fact on the ground. and no side has a monopoly on atrocities, sure.
however, its really hard to keep these thoughts seperate from my identity, and not feel like someone questioning israel's actions, or our unqualified support of them, isn't part of the ancient game of jew-baiting. i know that's not where ya'll are coming from, though...
with the possible exception of PN. PN, do not strangle me. I have hella many Mossad bodyguards, like all joos.
Hell, I'd say you were dead right on Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, etc
and they all get military aid, intell support, etc including help them keep down the oppressed segments of their population who might want to change their government.
The really funny thing is, and I have said this before too
Iran is the moderate state when compared to the rest of the list...
Education, Healthcare, employment, etc
but the Western media seems to hammer on the negatives Iran has while ignoring the fact that all their neighbors have worse records
" suggesting that israel ought to be one where Saudi Arabia isn't "
perhaps they all should be, but Israel was brought into being by the West... so the West owns some responsibility for what they did there
perhaps this might interest you
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8550614.stm?lsm
" Despite their ties to Judaism, many of the Lemba in Zimbabwe are Christians, while some are Muslims. "
these guys seem to have it worked out
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interesting stuff. i've heard of traces of similar communities as far a field as china, but this is something new.
the reason why jews in zimbabwe look like zimbabwians (sic?), and chinese jews don't, is pretty straight forward. people screw; religions don't.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
interesting stuff. i've heard of traces of similar communities as far a field as china, but this is something new.
the reason why jews in zimbabwe look like zimbabwians (sic?), and chinese jews don't, is pretty straight forward. people screw; religions don't.
I love this
" Despite their ties to Judaism, many of the Lemba in Zimbabwe are Christians, while some are Muslims.
"Christianity is my religion, and Judaism is my culture," explains Perez Hamandishe, a pastor and member of parliament from the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC).
Despite their centuries-old traditions, some younger Lemba are taking a more liberal view.
"In the old days you didn't marry a non-Lemba, but these days we interact with others," says Alex Makotore, son of the late Chief Mposi from the Lemba "headquarters" in Mberengwa.
"I feel special in my heart but not in front of others such that I'm separated from them. Culture is dynamic. "
They manage to share cultures, traditions and religion ( Jewish, Christian and Muslim to boot ) without conflict ripping up the tribe.
The last line says it all
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That's not actually new, you know, Mohammed pulled it off in Medina back in 622AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina
http://www.ijtihad.org/compact.htm
So there's plenty of precedent for it, but the state and culture of Israel is currently run by people who IMHO, are insane.
-F
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" IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME!!! "
nazi
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.
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In their defense, Jong - it seemed a good idea at the time.
Historically, the Muslims had often sheltered Jews against Christian persecution, you see, and even now, even still, have a LONGER history of solidarity than they do conflict - this bloodbath is a fairly recent development, and what sparked it in the first place was the desperation of fugitives and refugees needing a place to LIVE, and when it became clear no one else wanted them due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place.
But anyhow, they needed X amount of room for Y amount of refugees, and being that no one else would take em, and they didn't HAVE that room, in desperation they resorted to taking territory the only way it's ever successfully done in the middle east - by killin every living soul on it.
That's the root of the hatred, cause Muslim religion and culture is very strong on hospitality rights, privledges and behavior, and to have someone you've offered sanctuary then betray you in such a fashion is justification for Badal (total revenge) against them and everyone from that moment who offers them so much as a sip of water, it's "just not done" to a degree I don't think I can really explain to americans.
Worse was how the damn Irgun tried to drive out the foreigners who might call them on their bloody handed terrorism - by bombing them and trying to pin the blame on Muslims, they got caught on this a couple times, not just the Lavon Affair... but again, the history of backstabbing and deceitful conduct caused most of the folk who supported em at the time to pull out and let them swing, save for the dumbass Americans, who supported them at the time, and even to some degree now, more out of religious intolerance and racism than any justifiable reason.
But thing is, no one wants to look at the history prior to WWII and is often discouraged from doing so by a pathetic sympathy ploy which is such an overblown and tattered rag that it's now all but outright illegal to even QUESTION it ?
(Zundels a fucknut, but he's got a right to ask stupid questions and say stupid things!)
Even in the light of them more or less committing the same abuses against Palestine ?
Eff that - what most folk don't realize is that the particular religion and culture has well over a thousand year history of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, and that is how and why they wound up shoved on the only folks who would tolerate them DESPITE the outpouring of sympathy over concentration camps and mass graves, because they were still seen en-masse by everyone else to be about as trustworthy as Lu Bu - which is rather borne out by the situation at hand...
Although that's less Judaism in particular than the Zionist faction thereof, but so long as that faction is tolerated in the same way Christians tolerate their own fucking lunatics just cause they claim to be Christian, that ain't gonna be changing any time soon, especially when the tolerant folk who COULD pull the rug out from under then don't dare, since due to the Zionistas behavior, the rest of the middle east is so enraged that were they to do that, their whole nation would be obliterated in retaliation before they could even TRY to negotiate.
Now if we were to cut out unthinking and reflexive political, military and financial support though, those Zionista assholes would be forced to do something other than talk shit, backstab everyone in sight and then come crying to us when folk get pissed off about it - and once they REALLY start getting their ass kicked, prolly go whining and begging to the UN, who (having SOME sense) wouldn't give em the time of day, and they'd be stuck with two options, make peace, or get pacified.
At which poin
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Thanks for all that information. I never really cared too much about Israel and the Middle East conflicts. I'd like to continue that fine record of apathy on the issue, but it's gettin' harder to do that when it seems everything in the world is related to it somehow.
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Mr Frem: "due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."
with all due respect, WTF are you talking about? this is the awful liminal space, where legitimate discussion about israel crosses over into blood libel and anti-semitism. one could infer from your statement that, i dunno, jews have been persecuted over the centuries because they deserve it.
if you are right, and "somebody had to say it", I would expect this from PN.
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That's an old one, Mincing, don't let your emotions run wild. I'm pretty sure Frem didn't mean anything by it...many cultures are guilty of just the things he's talking about, there's no monopoly on it from the Jews. I'm not quite sure why he has such a hard-on for them, but it's not the first time we've seen him head-up about something.
However, I do think your view is skewed pretty dramatically, Frem. I realize you're talking mostly about the Zionists, who are about on equal footing with the IRA in my opinion, but to lump everyone together like that...and how many cultures do you think have done exactly the same things throughout history?? Backstabbing, etc., is POLITICS--everyone does it and I don't think the jewes have the monopoly you seem to indicate.
I'm not sure what you mean about America backing them "more out of religious intolerance and racism than any justifiable reason", given the intolerance Jews faced in this country for so long...
Mind you, I'm not pro-Irael myself, mostly because of the blind eye America has turned to the situation and how we've kept pouring money and backing in. But "nuke 'em"??? That's no solution to anything; I'd say your statements on that come very close to mirroring Wulf's "guns solve everything" attitude, and I don't think it's fair.
Shall we talk the Christian Crusades? If you want to talk about doing some bad shit, we can find it right there, not to mention what we did to the Native Americans. No country or peoples are any better in their way.
And no, I didn't get indoctrinated into the "Israel is always right" mentality, I was pretty unaware of all the history until after I read/saw Exodus, then went on to read QBIV and especially The Source. Our Israel backing has a LOT to do with the money Jews contribute to campaigns, etc., just like many other stances.
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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emotions? i don't have any.
this is not the first time I've heard such stuff, believe it or not, and certainly not the last. far be it from me to defend a theist state.
i'm not surprised that we can't talk about israel without getting into the broader historical narrative of the perfidy of the jews.
its disappointing, though, coming from a free-thinking anarchist type, as opposed to the batshit crazy PN type...
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Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
emotions? i don't have any.
this is not the first time I've heard such stuff, believe it or not, and certainly not the last. far be it from me to defend a theist state.
i'm not surprised that we can't talk about israel without getting into the broader historical narrative of the perfidy of the jews.
its disappointing, though, coming from a free-thinking anarchist type, as opposed to the batshit crazy PN type...
I'm with both of you on this one, looking at the guys in Zimbabwe or Frems previous example of Messina people with all three religions have gotten along in the past and are capable of it.
The current problem is that one side ( Israel ) has total control over the other and are not at all benevolent. No peace is possible under those conditions...
As for groups of people acting like assholes to the point where people cheer their decline... lets picture the United States if it continues its course in another fifty years if it is still around...
already Americans pretend to be from somewhere else when traveling abroad and in many places they are not welcome to travel at all... due to individuals paying the cost for the actions of the group.
But that is an entirely different conversation
Biden, and the US are blowing smoke right now...
but the positive move I think has come from the EU
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/03/201031115544623320.ht
ml
" The European Parliament has backed the findings of a UN-backed report into last year's Gaza war, which heavily criticised Israel and accused both Tel Aviv and Hamas of war crimes. "
Israel went into a near panic recently when several European countrys began to require Imported products be labeled Product of Israel, and Product of Occupied West Bank ( or words to that effect ) taking foreign policy out of the hands of the politicians and allowing people to decide whether or not to buy goods from Israel... and without violating trade agreements, etc. In exports other than weapons, the Israeli economy depends on the European market, as their neighbors don't buy their exports... some of these moves could have an effect to force Israel to the table... but only if the US quits handing over cash.
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Another editorial
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/imperium/2010/03/11/us-middle-east-policy-r
etreat
US in Middle East policy retreat
The US vice president's visit to Israel has to a large degree clarified the Middle East imperatives of the Barack Obama administration in its second year.
Joe Biden's cornerstone speech at Tel Aviv University is a major downgrade and retreat from the bold commitments made by President Obama in Turkey and Egypt.
The two-part speech will no doubt be read selectively. Israeli leadership will underline the appeasement, commitment and support in the first two-thirds of the speech, whilst the Palestinian leadership will emphasise the overtures and support for independence made in the last third.
The first part underlines the Obama administration's and Biden's own adulation and commitment towards Israel. It checks all the boxes.
Israel is a vibrant democracy, check. With moral standing, check. Acts in self-defence, check. Mutual values, check. No better friend, check. US commitment to Israel's security unwavering, check. Their views on security identical, check.
He also underlined how the views of US and Israel on Iran are identical. Iranian leadership a major problem, check. Iran has become more dangerous, check. Iran will not be allowed to go nuclear, check. Its allies Hezbollah and Hamas are threat to Israel, check.
Palestine in return for Iran
Biden substituted Washington's extended open hand towards Tehran with a firm fist, while placing the 'peace process' squarely at the service of US strategy towards Iran.
And he made clear, in no vague terms that the Obama administration needs to keep the diplomatic process alive in order to mount the solid front against Iran which Israel wants so badly.
The Obama administration must give the sense of momentum that makes it possible for "moderate" Arab regimes, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to join in future sanctions or blockade on Tehran.
That's why, as a close Zionist friend and ally, Biden urged Israel to cease making announcements of settlement construction that might derail the negotiations, and support the establishment of Palestinian state.
But the way in which the Vice President packaged the question of Palestine doesn't bode well for a just solution. He made no mention of the illegality of the Israeli settlements, let alone any mention of Israeli occupation of Palestinian and Arab land.
A Palestinian state, according to Biden, is indispensable first and foremost for Israel as a democracy and a Jewish homeland.
Bid for safety
As the Obama administration took stock of its dwindling popularity on its first year and analyzed aspects of its foreign policy failures, it concluded that it's safer for the time being to go back to traditional appeasement of Israel and continue putting pressure on Tehran.
Clearly, the Obama administration feels that it has burnt its fingers, at least publicly, by giving the impression of seeking rapprochement with Iran and distancing itself from Israel.
Although this might have been the right strategy or the necessary bold shift to reinvent the Middle East region, the Obama administration hasn't been ready to pay the political price in terms of the Israeli lobby's backlash domestically or the geopolitical costs in terms of accommodation with Iran.
It's in that sense that the speech at Tel Aviv University is the culmination of half a year of rethinking of US Middle East strategy and actual retreat from the ambitious plans at the outset.
Facing several hot and cold fronts at home and in the Greater Middle East region, the Obama administration hopes to improve the atmosphere with Israel, put the heat on Tehran, and enlist the support of so-called moderate Arabs.
To that end, the Obama administration seems to have abandoned comprehensive efforts towards far reaching global solutions to the region's conflicts, and instead is seeking to maintain the trappings of peaceful negotiations on the Israel-Palestine front in order to raise the h
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Yeah, the bastard backtracked and kinda ate his words, damn him:Quote:
Tho' he did reiterate his condemnation in the same speech, at least:
During the opening part of his speech, the vice president spoke warmly of his own personal attachment to Israel and pointedly repeated reassurances that the Obama administration is committed to Israel's security and is paying a price through its active involvement in the region.
"I am here to remind you, and I hope you will never forget, that America stands with you shoulder to shoulder," he said.Quote:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/joe-biden-reassures-israel-us-comm
Biden repeated an earlier condemnation of the move in his speech today.
"That decision in my view undermined the trust required for productive negotiations, so I, and at the request of the President Obama, condemned it immediately and unequivocally," he said.
The comment incited applause and loud cheers from his audience of mostly Israeli students.
itment-security/story?id=10070701
Maybe the younger generation is smartening up? Or not...sigh...
"With moral standing"...yeah, riiight!
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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and the alternative is....what?
as i mentioned earlier, israel is far from the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that the united states shores up. its not even the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that is currently slaughtering and oppressing its own citizens. not even the only state that is a product of ham-fisted colonialism.
it is however, the only one where the dreaded JOOS are the ones being the assholes. hence, its the only one that is plugged into the longstanding narrative of JOO EVIL. and i firmly believe that the term "zionist", is a dodge, a way for someone to say "kike" without uttering the syllables.
screw israel--i won't defend it, and i won't deny that it is premised on bullshit theism and a sense of historical injury. but lets be honest: a lot of the hostility to israel is rooted as much in the "kosher" character of the state as it is in any sense of injustice. and many folks can not resist discussing the policies of the state, and suddenly transforming it into a discussion of an entire group of people...
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Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
and the alternative is....what?
as i mentioned earlier, israel is far from the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that the united states shores up. its not even the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that is currently slaughtering and oppressing its own citizens. not even the only state that is a product of ham-fisted colonialism.
it is however, the only one where the dreaded JOOS are the ones being the assholes. hence, its the only one that is plugged into the longstanding narrative of JOO EVIL. and i firmly believe that the term "zionist", is a dodge, a way for someone to say "kike" without uttering the syllables.
screw israel--it is premised on bullshit theism and a sense of historical injury. but lets be honest: a lot of the hostility to israel is rooted as much in the "kosher" character of the state as it is in any sense of injustice.
My own hostility towards Israel is based on their actions, other countrys I feel the same way about as well... but none get the level of backing Israel receives... and that hypocrisy bother me even more...
The UN has had several resolutions against Israel, tried for others but were blocked by the US... solely because it was Israel ( in similar situations the US voted the opposite way )
This makes the concepts of the UN, international law, conflict resolution..... entirely worthless
I put more blame on the US for this than Israel, but they are both in this.
The only problem I have with the Jewish part of this mess, is the way it is used as a justification for the actions of both Israel and the US... bullshit
If say the Netherlands acted the same way towards its neighbors... they would have been rolled over long ago... why should it be any different?
Israel is the lynchpin of US foreign policy is the region...
Without that distraction.... all the other problems become easier to deal with.
I'd be happy if the US didn't prop anyone up, and folk could find their own way... Funny how some people ( many on this site ) hate government interference in their lives, but support their government interfering in the lives of folk in other countrys...
happy to discuss other countrys and situations with you Mince, we would probably even find room to agree... but Israel needs to be where the changes start.
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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dont disagree with you mr. gino. israel is broken, and no damned good for the US. lets just not blame it all on jews, or even better, a world wide jewish conspiracy.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
dont disagree with you mr. gino. israel is broken, and no damned good for the US. lets just not blame it all on jews, or even better, a world wide jewish conspiracy.
How about a world wide Israeli conspiracy ?
Another problem is that Israel has VERY effective lobby groups that provide donations, collect influence, sometimes even force the defeat of people who oppose them in other peoples governments.
This makes rational arguments difficult... and also would not be tolerated if say... Russia was acting in the same fashion.
It is not only Israel that is broken
But back to Israel, I posted a while back an opinion piece that suggested that internal politics inside Israel would not allow compromises necessary for any peace deal as long as there wasn't an outside influence they could point at and say " we have been pushed into this " Any political party trying to act on its own would lose power, but with the excuse of losing aid, or trade... they might get away with it.
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a worldwide israeli conspiracy may be, to some extent accurate. but it also provides covers for assholes who can cite the protocols of the elders of zion and simply substitute "israeli" for "jew." hence my discomfort.
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Nah, I was pointing out (being yanno, not born back then) that AT THE TIME, most nations had "such a hard-on for them" that they had no inclination to take in their refugees and pointing out that they were guilty of a lot of dirty business before WWII - not that they were *alone* in that, by far, but folks do tend to skip over and dance around the reasons that no nation would give them asylum, cause they were holding a grudge, some of it legit, some of it not...
Problem is, post WWII we're supposed to pretend that prior to that their behavior was absolutely angelic ?
C'mon folks, that's bullshit, and imma call it as such.
The reason *I* have such a nasty on for em politically is the simple fact that we're pouring money, resources, military equipment, into a country that does NOTHING BUT STAB US IN THE BACK EVERY CHANCE THEY GET - yeah, that'll tend to piss me off, yanno ?
I mean, I got a laundry list of shit they've pulled, most of which they admitted to, which IF ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET did to us, we'd be at war with, and here we are practically on our knees fellating them ?
Oh fuck that - and Bidens little talk is just blowing smoke, talk is cheap, and so far, that's all it's been, talk - which everyone on this dirtball prettymuch knows we won't hold to anyways.
As far as religious and racial intolerance, well, other than folks like PN and whatnot, it's not that folks ain't intolerant against em, although these days it seems calling them on their *actual behavior* gets labelled intolerance... it's that folks tend to hate on arabs and muslims even more, and there's plenty of folk, Rappy as a case in point, who support Israel for the sole purpose of their wholesale slaughter of such, believe me Niki, the words "two for one special" were so over the top they made *ME* wanna puke, be glad you weren't here for that discussion.
Nor was I in any way advocating nuclear weapons, I was pointing out that the folk currently in charge of that country are SO insane that they would, absolutely, start WWIII if they could, rather than not be in control, they're really that far gone, and it gives me the willies, and I suspect that's one reason folks are reluctant to call them out, cause they're friggin psychotic.
If I thought anything less would get the idea across, believe me, I would not have made that tomahawk missle suggestion, but in all honesty, I don't think anything less would be effective, cause if you *did* try to boycott them, you risk winding up thrown in the clink next to Zundel for "anti-semetism", or whatever you wanna call it, but basically even calling them on their bullshit is damn near illegal, and that is insane.
And yeah, we're not exactly paragons of moral virtue neither, cause Hitlers solution to his jewish problem was indeed cribbed straight off our solution to the native american problem, not to mention we were rounding up japanese-americans and stuffin em into camps ourselves - I make no bones about calling our misdeeds neither, difference is I get seriously pissy about being forced at gunpoint to finance someone elses.
And while it might seem I am being unusually harsh, look at the laundry list of crap they've pulled since 1946 and consider just how hard it's ever gonna be for anyone to trust them as a nation and religious/political entity ever again, I wasn't kiddin when I used the exact phrase "Chronic Backstabbing Disorder" - we're supposed to be their ally and yet...
Comverse Infosystems, AMDOCS, Zonealarm fiasco, Lavon Affair, Aipac, USS Liberty, "Art students", "Moving companies" and a whole lot of suspicious characters on forged passports checking out our infrastructure, as of late "locksmiths" too, which like the moving companies have engaged in direct criminal behavior and scammery as well as espionage - and we just sit there and take it and take it and smile and beg for more while handing them billions in cash and military equipment ?
Oh yes, I am very, very angry about that.
The moment that did it for me was quite a while back, reading about an incident whe
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ahem. i repeat, Mr Frem: "due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."
this is not a statement about the current misdeeds of israel, which i would generally agre with you on. this is a statement justifying the historical persecution of the jews because "they do shit like this" and always have. nobody is claiming the jews are angels, but it seems that you come pretty close to claiming the reverse. i dunno, for some reason i expected more from you.
EDIT:
"Lemme throw this last bit in, how would you feel if we had been directly financially and militarily supporting genocide in Rwanda while sucking up to the folks committing it in every way possible"
I imagine I'd be upset, but would like to think that I wouldn't segue into some sort of argument that "Well, Africans have always acted like this, and always will, and somebody has to say it, but thats why racism exists."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.
But the quest for statehood existed long before WW2 and the holocaust. It's a misnomer to think that statehood was simply a means of 'pay back' for the atrocities levied upon the Jewish people.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
ahem. i repeat, Mr Frem: "due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."
this is not a statement about the current misdeeds of israel, which i would generally agre with you on. this is a statement justifying the historical persecution of the jews because "they do shit like this" and always have. nobody is claiming the jews are angels, but it seems that you come pretty close to claiming the reverse. i dunno, for some reason i expected more from you.
EDIT:
"Lemme throw this last bit in, how would you feel if we had been directly financially and militarily supporting genocide in Rwanda while sucking up to the folks committing it in every way possible"
I imagine I'd be upset, but would like to think that I wouldn't segue into some sort of argument that "Well, Africans have always acted like this, and always will, and somebody has to say it, but thats why racism exists."
But to some degree your last statement does have some truth...
Tribal warfare in many parts of Africa historically hits close to genocide... and that hate of the other group has stayed with the culture... or the Balkans as another example
Historically in many places people have lashed out at the Jewish for various reasons and that left the same sort of cultural imperative... perhaps some deserved and some not
Not saying it is good or right... but if we don't acknowledge that it exists we would be in error
Unfortunately I would have to point out the actions of Israel generates the current, largest source of anti semitic feeling... even on a global scale. As a Jewish guy I used to work with said once... " Those fuckers are giving us all a black eye "
He even quit his synagogue after a disagreement over their raising funds to send to Israel...
A present day Adolf could easily use such feelings to justify a new crackdown... right ?
I think that is why many Jewish groups try to separate themselves from Israel in the public mind
and yet another reason to end this mess once and for all...
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.
But the quest for statehood existed long before WW2 and the holocaust. It's a misnomer to think that statehood was simply a means of 'pay back' for the atrocities levied upon the Jewish people.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "
hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "
hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were
I use to think as you. I guess it's all in how you're taught history.
The Brits weren't going to hold onto the land forever.
It was more a fire sale / give away than " pay back ". 10's of 1000's of Jews had been immigrating into the area long before 1948.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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I tend to defend Israel on two bases:
That however 'benevolently' Israel acted, people would still be determined to wipe it out - so pacifism isn't viable.
And although it is by far the stronger party in the conflict, it takes both parties to make peace.
That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?
Heads should roll
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Ain't tryin to justify any of it, it's all nuts.
Just tryin to explain the WHY, such as can be done with a situation this insane, and point out that were we to make the moral decision of cutting them off financially, politically, and militarily, they're likely to either get obliterated or start WWIII, neither of which are particularly nice options.
Desperate people do some pretty horrible things, and desperate they were, back THEN - there's no excuse to continue that behavior, especially when they've pressed Palestine to the wall and made THEM desperate, which just feeds the cycle.
As stated, it takes both sides to make peace, and alas that Israel ain't havin any of it.
Tell me folks, how many of these "agreements" have they *not* broken, usually before the ink is even dry ?
Bueller ?
Anyone ?
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?
On this matter, I can not. I don't know why it's deemed necessary to go forth in building these settlements , unless ( and I'm only guessing here ) it's thought that no compromise can be made w/ those who'd lob rockets at civilians. But it may be entirely something else all together.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "
hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were
I use to think as you. I guess it's all in how you're taught history.
The Brits weren't going to hold onto the land forever.
It was more a fire sale / give away than " pay back ". 10's of 1000's of Jews had been immigrating into the area long before 1948.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
But even today after decades of immigration, after all the Arab and Palestinian people that moved or were driven out
Jewish people are still a minority compared to the Arab / Druze / Palestinian demographic...
the numbers do get a bit distorted as since about 2002 you need to add the occupied territorys as a seperate demographic.. but considering what was Palestine in 1948 it remains true
What sort of government would the Brits have left if not for WW2 ? and when would they have left ?
Would be the questions...
I doubt they would have left things as there are now...
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?
On this matter, I can not. I don't know why it's deemed necessary to go forth in building these settlements , unless ( and I'm only guessing here ) it's thought that no compromise can be made w/ those who'd lob rockets at civilians. But it may be entirely something else all together.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
or cut off food and supplys from a population
or use WP shells on a population
or bulldoze people out of their homes
or shoot farmers while they work their fields
etc, etc , etc
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I tend to defend Israel on two bases:
That however 'benevolently' Israel acted, people would still be determined to wipe it out - so pacifism isn't viable.
And although it is by far the stronger party in the conflict, it takes both parties to make peace.
That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?
Heads should roll
I don't think it is defensible
but from what little I know about internal Israeli politics there is elements who want to push for all the land they can claim...
and with coalition governments already on the far right... not a hard sell for them to keep building to appease some of these factions in order to stay in power.
Take a look at a map that shows the weird borders they are trying to push as well...
they are grabbing all the water, lakes, rivers, resourses they can... any decent farm land, etc
ten years from now, no manner of negotiation will move the settlers off
Israel will keep this going as long as they can to keep grabbing bits and pieces here and there.
Two Questions...
Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?
Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?
I think the Palestinians often shoot themselves in the foot with crazy looking leaders making wacky declarations... but then again mind you... any time it looks like anyone could bring their factions together... Israel seems to find a reason to whack him.
While it is hard to negotiate with a mob
when you whack anybody who could become a leader which you could sit down with... it is a mob of your own creation
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
or cut off food and supplys from a population
or use WP shells on a population
or bulldoze people out of their homes
or shoot farmers while they work their fields
etc, etc , etc
Yeah, WP shells were used. Illegally or w/ intent on civilians ? Not proven. Overlooking the fact that Pal militants routinely hide behind or under civilian buildings, knowing full well the Israelis are reluctant to shoot, with the world looking on. But there's only so much one can stand before their hand is forced. Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.
Bulldozers, shooting folks....sorry, I don't find such claims to be so credible as presented at face value.
On such matters, the REST of the story needs to be told.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Two Questions...
Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?
Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?
Two answers - yes and yes.
When others have vowed to wipe YOU out, then it's o.k. to wipe them out first.
Didn't Israel give UP land ? Something like GAZA ? And how was that GOOD FAITH deed repaid ? Rockets. Not a few or a few dozen, but 1000's of rockets.
When have the PALS ever negotiated in good faith ?
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
or cut off food and supplys from a population
or use WP shells on a population
or bulldoze people out of their homes
or shoot farmers while they work their fields
etc, etc , etc
Yeah, WP shells were used. Illegally or w/ intent on civilians ? Not proven. Overlooking the fact that Pal militants routinely hide behind or under civilian buildings, knowing full well the Israelis are reluctant to shoot, with the world looking on. But there's only so much one can stand before their hand is forced. Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.
Bulldozers, shooting folks....sorry, I don't find such claims to be so credible as presented at face value.
On such matters, the REST of the story needs to be told.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
Israel is the party that has consistently restricted media access
Any lack of info is square on them.
I could post away dozens of news storys at this point... but they have all been put up here before
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/03/2010362141312196.
html
throwing out Palestians to move Jews in
even Israeli folk are protesting these things
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Two Questions...
Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?
Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?
Two answers - yes and yes.
When others have vowed to wipe YOU out, then it's o.k. to wipe them out first.
Didn't Israel give UP land ? Something like GAZA ? And how was that GOOD FAITH deed repaid ? Rockets. Not a few or a few dozen, but 1000's of rockets.
When have the PALS ever negotiated in good faith ?
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
Great... Then the Taliban are justified in killing every American they can
pre emptive self defense, after all your stated goal is to wipe them out
and any gov the US supports that oppresses anyone... they can start killing Americans by the dozens as well
I would loved to hear what you would have to say after living in Gaza for six months...
perhaps you would have some empathy at least.
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Great... Then the Taliban are justified in killing every American they can
Well no, not really. That comparison doesn't even begin to make any sense.
Quote:Well, they started it. After we saved their asses from the Commies.
pre emptive self defense, after all your stated goal is to wipe them out
Quote:
and any gov the US supports that oppresses anyone... they can start killing Americans by the dozens as well
Huh? Again, not making any sense here. Israel is DEFENDING herself. Not " oppressing " anyone.
Big difference.
Quote:
I would loved to hear what you would have to say after living in Gaza for six months...
perhaps you would have some empathy at least.
No, not really. Because I'd not have started my stay in Gaza by ripping up any and all infrastructure and usable technology, simply because the Jews had put it there. I'd have left irrigation and green houses, for example, in place, and tried to use them, instead of trashing it all.
But that's just me.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Quote:
Two Questions...
Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?
No. Auraptor wtf? A whole other people??
Geopolitics for me works in terms of windows of opportunity - most of the time peace is unattainable, Israel just has to choose the right way to protect its citizens against terrorism.
Quote:
Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?
Maybe, I've heard some such reports. And perhaps in the future? It's in Israel's interests, I don't think it can be impossible - though it may take an historic, visionary leader of some kind (weak leaders cannot make peace, etc.).
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
Two Questions...
Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?
No. Auraptor wtf? A whole other people??
No, not really. But it's an absurd premise on the face of it, so I simply followed suit.
Israel is in no means trying to wipe out anyone. I'm pretty sure there's nothing formal written about wiping anyone off the face of the map......
But the bigger problem here is, folks have already taken sides, and even though it's been proven that both sides "work" the media, folks generally assume that only 1 side gets heard, or one side is doing the bulk of the media manipulation.
It's been proven that, if anything, there are those in the media who have manipulated info AGAINST Israel, by fabricating stories.... doctoring photos.... so when I hear about how the IDF won't " allow " media in certain areas.....it's hard for me to blame them.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
Two Questions...
Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?
No. Auraptor wtf? A whole other people??
Geopolitics for me works in terms of windows of opportunity - most of the time peace is unattainable, Israel just has to choose the right way to protect its citizens against terrorism.Quote:
Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?
Maybe, I've heard some such reports. And perhaps in the future? It's in Israel's interests, I don't think it can be impossible - though it may take an historic, visionary leader of some kind (weak leaders cannot make peace, etc.).
Heads should roll
I don't think its impossible either
but I don't think the two state solution in its current form is going to go anywhere
BTW I'm done arguing with Rappy
I keep remembering his defense of the idea of shooting pregnant Palestinian to save bullets
lost cause
I do think Israel better act soon, or it will have the issue decided for them...
Europe for the most part has has enough of their actions
the US has other problems, and is likely very sick of having them thumb their nose at them anytime they ask them to do something towards the peace process...
They may have a great military... but their economy can't float it alone. No aid, cut off from export markets... 5 or 6 years at most...
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:
BTW I'm done arguing with Rappy
I keep remembering his defense of the idea of shooting pregnant Palestinian to save bullets
Talk about misremembering.....
You're referencing the " 1 shot, 2 kills " t-shirt, which shows a image of a pregnant muslim woman in a burka, in the cross-hairs of a sniper's scope.
You assign a position to me for which I NEVER took. How the hell am I suppose to answer to a point of view which isn't mine ?
All I said was - IF the pregnant woman has already condemned herself and unborn her child to death by being a suicide bomb, THEN it would be a justified shooting, TO SAVE THE LIVES OF OTHERS. That's the sole scenario which I deemed it even REMOTELY acceptable to pull the trigger. It never had anything to do w/ 'saving bullets'.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/280467/pregnant_palestinian_w
oman_and_niece.html
I'm not back tracking, or " making shit up " to cover up anything. The above link shows to what I was referring.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Oh bullshit, some of us were there, we know what you said, and if it weren't so fucking pointless might dredge up the thread and link it.
*points to Rappy*
THIS is the mindset of the folk in charge of Israel, and has been for a damned long time.
Still think negotiation is really possible ?
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
*points to Rappy*
THIS is the mindset of the folk in charge of Israel, and has been for a damned long time.
Still think negotiation is really possible ?
-F
Because defending oneself from suicide bombers is SO outrageous ?
I doubt there's a human one the planet who'd not take that shot to defend their own family. Every single person would do the exact same thing.
Every one.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Ok, fine, you wanna play it that way.
Here's the link.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=37443
You said what you said, and got verbally bitchslapped in epic fashion as a result.
Did you *REALLY* think you could count on the hope that people wouldn't remember and you could lie your way out of that ?
You're a monster, and such a good advertisement AGAINST the causes you support that no one needs a strawman with you around, and you're too fucking dumb to see it.
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Ok, fine, you wanna play it that way.
Here's the link.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=37443
You said what you said, and got verbally bitchslapped in epic fashion as a result.
Did you *REALLY* think you could count on the hope that people wouldn't remember and you could lie your way out of that ?
You're a monster, and such a good advertisement AGAINST the causes you support that no one needs a strawman with you around, and you're too fucking dumb to see it.
-Frem
Actually, you're the liar. And I'm so fracking tired of this dance. When the hell are you going to grow up ? Oh, I guess - never.
Here's what I ACTUALLY SAID
Quote:
When Pal women start dressing up their babies in suicide pampers, might be a good idea to go ahead and take care of both of them at once, before they have a chance to kill.
The CLEAR implication being, if anyone is suiting their own child up to be a martyr and kill scores of innocent others, then it's sane and logical to prevent that from happening. The MONSTER would simply allow it to occur, as you would, and then have the blood of 20,30, 100 or more people on your hands.
To save the life of a mother who is going to blow her and her own child up ANYWAY! That's the part you don't get. Your brain can't or won't process that simple, harsh reality of that. Maybe you don't want to think that anyone COULD do that, but it's EXACTLY the mindset of those butchers over there.
They say it themselves..... " We love death more than you love life " .
What is it about that which you don't get ?
Hate to play psychologist here, but you keep projecting YOUR views onto others, and then when you can't come to grips as to why anyone would murder their own child via a suicide bomb, you refuse to face the reality of their evil, and instead conclude.... " they're simply being driven to do this ! They have no other choice! "
Bullshit. YOU are the monster here, not I.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Okay, it's gonna be long, but as usual I'm late coming in and so much has been posted since I left, this is the only way to catch up for me.
Here’s a shock for you. All else aside, I am forced to say "Excellent self-control Raptor, I'm impressed". You made your points (much as I may disagree with them) and didn't resort to name calling until Frem did. Frem; way over the top and unnecessary in my opion. This time you can't say his posts are whatever nasty thing you want to call them: YOU started it. Or did you, with your pyschological manipulation strategy, deliberately go over the line, knowing how easy it is to trigger Raptor? I wonder.
Or, as he said himself, did you let your own anger and feelings, and past experiences with him, take you over the top? Whichever it was, you take the blame for this one.
Whatever caused your reaction; Raptor, I take you off "wind" status for me, however little that may mean to you. You'll still be wind to me when you deserve it, but if you make cogent (from your point of view) posts like these, you deserve my respect...only then.
As to "lying", I read the same quote--while it can be interpreted one way, it can also be interpreted Raptor's way, and he went on to justify it with the concept that if the mother is going to send her kid out as a suicide bomber, maybe it's worth considering. So I don't call what he said a lie, more an interpretation.
Mind you, I DO NOT agree with him, on almost all points, I'm just putting this up so that however this devolves into nastiness, you can't blame Raptor for throwing the first stone--yours wasn't a "stone", it was a bombast.
On other points: Raptor, you said in that thread from the past that we'd never seen child abuse like that in any other country. Totally wrong, and I think you know that. Hell, we can put America up as an argument against THAT if we want to. We've rarely seen children USED in such a way in a war, but then we don't hear about everything, so I doubt they're the only ones.
I agree they don’t want to wipe anyone off the map—tho’ if you’re fair, the extremist Muslims all over the Middle East DO want to wipe Israel off the map. What’s been said before is accurate; they want to grab as much viable land, by any means available, to give themselves the best of it and to put as much distance between them and their enemies as possible, in my view. That they go off the arable land is smart, and I can’t really fault them for that, but I find their actions reprehensible nonetheless.
As to the media, yes, in every conflict both sides try to manipulate. I can’t help wondering how the resources Israel has available to them makes gives them the money to do a better JOB of it and if their enemies had the same resources, they wouldn’t do it as well. At present, the Israelis have committed so many atrocities, and “if it bleeds, it’s news”, so perhaps they get more attention. I don’t know.
And the statement that Israel is the lynchpin of US policy in the region is right on...it is awfully sad to see the Obama administration reverse its policies and cow tow to Israel—I had hope there, as well as so many other places I’ve been disappointed. I wish they/he had the courage of their/his convictions on SOMETHING, dammit!!
I hold with Mincing that making a historical case against Jews such as Frem has is unsustainable. And I think it’s apt to compare America; our actions globally and historically have been just as egregious as any other religion or nationality’s—we have a shorter history, certainly, than other countries, but people around the world already say “Americans have always...” and condemn our actions in many other theaters.
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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KPO:Quote:
Hoo, boy, do I disagree with THAT one! Israel’s actions stopped being defense a long time ago, and yes, they are seriously oppressing the Palestinians, in ways that are reprehensible to the rest of the world, but to which the US has long turned a blind eye. Admittedly, in my view Israel did start out defending themselves, and I give them full credit for how well they did it, but that doesn’t hold water anymore and hasn’t for a long time.
Israel just has to choose the right way to protect its citizens against terrorism.{/quote]I concur. Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen; between backing of the US and the ability (because of the US) for them to continue behaving as they are, I don’t ee it happening any time soon.[qote] Israel is DEFENDING herself. Not " oppressing " anyone.
I got a shock a while back. Call me uninformed, but when several people on the website I run who are from England and Europe told me that one of the main reasons Americans in general are so hated by the rest of the world is our unqualified backing of Israel. I had no idea it was such an issue. I am better informed now, of course, and understand it completely. However it began, the Israeli state has become a “conquering” state, taking land from others and destroying everyone in its path, behaving in horrific fashion, ignoring the rest of the world’s efforts to stop it—and all because they have the backing of the biggest bully around: us.
However anyone started OUT in Gaza, Raptor, they deserve our empathy NOW. Whatever they did initially doesn’t change the fact that they’re being persecuted, pure and simple, and have had a “war” declared on them which SHOULD outrage any thinking American beyond belief. The horrors they live under deserve empathy, whether they’re right or wrong.
Gino:Quote:
That’s the best thing I heard about Biden’s speech (aside from the condemnation, but he kinda tempered that, which is a shame): the applause by the young students. That’s a hopeful sign to me; maybe those INTERNALLY can do something to temper their country’s action in the long term; certainly not in the short term, but it gives me hope.
even Israeli folk are protesting these thingsQuote:
That would have to be proven; I can’t accept it until it is.
Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.
Also, you made some great points. I, too, feel the same about countries who commit genocide, and Israel is only one of a long list of them. And I think Mincing’s point about making the case that “Jews have always behaved this way” is unsustainable...actually, so HAVE Africans, if you consider the atrocities committed there by various countries. Maybe the difference in part is that they’ve all had their own “homeland” from which to strike out or wipe out other populations within their borders. Maybe it’s because the backing of Israel, having so involved the US, makes it more “visible” to the rest of the world. Maybe because of the increased Muslim extremists’ actions globally nowadays, I dunno, but Israel gets focus; other places don’t. Simple as that.
You’re right; we can never know what would have happened when the Brits left (and they would have, their Empire was no longer sustainable) if it weren’t for WWII. It’s impossible to know, but I do believe without US interference (and perhaps as well the fact that so many Jews had to go somewhere and countries were tired of the influx, just as they are now of refugees from other places?), Israel would not exist. I don’t think it was any form of payback, however; more an expedient solution to the massive refugees, a political move responding to pressure, and land they were otherwise going to have to give up anyway. I could be wrong, certainly, but that’s how it looks to me.
Frem, I see your point now. You’re probably right that if we cut them off financially, politically and militarily, they’d be wiped out or start nuclear action, so lobbing a few to d
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I don't think it's any of our buisness. I believe we need to stop meddling in the affairs of other nations. Let them fight it out on thier own. We subsidize both sides in this disagreement and we get nothing but headaches for it. Lately it does'nt seem to matter which party we elect when it comes to our foreign policy of intervention. I wish we would heed our founding fathers advice of non-intervention. I think people's opinion of us around the world would change quickly. It's not just the 700 physical bases we have in 140 countries around the world that is ill thought. It's the economic and diplomatic meddling and malipulation as well. Some times minding ones buisness is the right choice......
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Niki.
I'm asking for your help on something. Educate me, because CLEARLY I'm missing a vital piece of information.
I'm not Jewish, ( that I'm aware of , anyway ) , was raised Methodist, though now am a non-believer. I have no ties, genetically,emotionally, economically, religiously - AT ALL. I've known, grown up and worked with a fair number of Jewish people. Some I liked, some not so much, but I don't recall ever having any real substantive issues w/ either their faith or anything. That's not saying I greatly admire the Jewish people as a whole... any more or less than I would anyone else.
I do recognize a lot of the animosity directed toward them is rooted in abject nonsense. THEY KILLED CHRIST ! Bullshit! That's laughably absurd, for reasons I'll skip , for right now. But my point is.... sure, they're a bit different, and odd, but over all, I've not seen them act out or be anywhere near as oppressive as anyone you'd expect, from those who had to face what they've been subjected to.
In short, I guess I'm saying I never got the memo which clearly states that Jews must be hated.
So, when I see Iranian leaders talking about 'wiping Israel off the map ', 1000's of rockets shot into civilian population areas ( and not military targets ) , suicide bombers taking out pizza restaurants and school buses.....I'm more than a bit perplexed as to what the hell it is they've done to deserve all this.
I'm not saying they're blameless on all counts, no one is. But I'd say the blame is weighted greatly toward those who want Israel destroyed, first, and not the Jews themselves. Blame can be attributed to one party more than another. In life, it's almost never 50/50. That's an idealistic and childish way of viewing the world, and one to which I do no hold.
I've visited and revisited this entire issue, on my own, over the years, and for the life of me, can NOT figure it out. Tell me, why is it that you lend more credence to the Palestinian side than the Jewish ?
In all honesty, I'd like to know.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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If I might jump in for a moment, Mr. AURaptor, I am jewish, and would never be mistaken for Woody Allen. In fact, unless I flash my decidely non-kosher star of David tattoo, you would assume that I am just another dashing, hunky white guy. Anyway, this makes me an authority. On everything.
I don't think Niki is coming fromt he vantage point that jews are extra hateable, or that palestinians are all doe-eyed innocents (though there are no doubt some in this thread who are). Rather, there's a certain asymmetry in their relationship that makes the palestinians underdogs--no matter what kind of vile bullshit they pull. Plus, the vile bullshit that the israelis pull is really, really vile.
Ultimately, you are asking for a rational explanation for irrational behavior. Good luck with that. The best catologue of the irrationality out there is poliakov's a history of anti-semitism, if you're curious. but suffice to say, in the words of lehrer (who sucks), "everybody hates the jews."
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Aur wrote...."So, when I see Iranian leaders talking about 'wiping Israel off the map ', 1000's of rockets shot into civilian population areas ( and not military targets ) , suicide bombers taking out pizza restaurants and school buses.....I'm more than a bit perplexed as to what the hell it is they've done to deserve all this."
I've already weighed in on what I think our role should be. Now for Isreal. I believe Isreal(or any soverign nation) has every right to defend themselves and do what it thinks is in its best interest. You would hope that both nations would make the choices that lead to peace for their people. However, as long as it does not effect the US directly we should not care. What I'm getting at is they both have every right to behave like assholes. The people of both nations(for the most part) appear to be behind thier respective government's behavior and policies. So, let them have at it. When the citizens of those nations decide that enough is enough they will change their goverments actions and policies.....when school kids have at it for a while. After beating the shit out of each other and realizing no teacher is going to break it up they find out how to get along....
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Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
If I might jump in for a moment, Mr. AURaptor, I am jewish, and would never be mistaken for Woody Allen. In fact, unless I flash my decidely non-kosher star of David tattoo, you would assume that I am just another dashing, hunky white guy. Anyway, this makes me an authority. On everything.
I don't think Niki is coming fromt he vantage point that jews are extra hateable, or that palestinians are all doe-eyed innocents (though there are no doubt some in this thread who are).
I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today.
I'm probably not alone in that, either. If the topic is specific to how PEOPLE have treated each other in that part of the world in recent decades, I'll cede, that it's likely to be all the more confusing ( and irrational ).
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Aur "I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today."
Banking.....it sounds crazy, but it all goes back to banking and religion two made up faiths....it's really amazing the absurdity of it all........
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"I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today."
very good point, and one that i've tried to raise. i think that this is why i think its a good point.
banking? christian triumphalism? muslim triumphalism? xenophobia? no, i think it really comes down to envy. jews are just the most awesome of all gods creatures, and this drives the goy insane.
but in all seriousness, the current discussion of israel lapses so easily into condemning the jews, as a people, and vindicating their tortured history.
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I'll try to answer you Raptor--I haven't read past your post so maybe others have gotten there first.
I have nothing against Jews themselves; my feelings are about the Israeli government and its actions (something becoming more and more shared by the Israeli people). I separate religion from politics, "Jews" are people, the "Israeli government" doesn't speak for them any more than my government speaks for me. There are just as many people who want to wipe MUSLIMS off the earth in my country as there are wanting to wipe Jews off the earth in the Middle East.
I could never use the old saying that "Some of my best friends are Jews", because I never KNEW--I don't ask and people are people. Some have told me they are after the fact, but I refuse to use that saying, given its meaning.
I was in FAVOR of the creation of a Jewish state. Not because I believed it was "payback" or anything, but because it solves some very real problems, and because they HAD been trying to create a homeland on their own before WWII.
I was, in my own vague way, on their side until the past few years. The things they have done and are doing now are just as oppressive as what was done to them...in many cases worse.
To support them ALONE at this point would be as bad, to me, as supporting the things that were done during the Bush administration; there is a difference between fighting a war and making survival all but impossible for a neighboring country, which is what they're essentially doing to the Palestinians.
Yes, they have a right to survive; but not at the expense of the Palestinian people's suffering. I have ceased supporting them because of this, and I resent the unqualified support of my country, financially and politically...especially given that the support is largely self-motivated for our government's own agenda.
To me, this issue has nothing to do with Judiasm, it has to do with the actions of a COUNTRY, any country, which has a lot of money and uses it to do horrific things to any other people. Period.
I can't speak for anyone else. I've heard the usual bullshit, "Global Jewish Conspiracy", "Jews are moneylenders", and may more. That's ALL bullshit to me.
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Ooops, I see Mincing answered for me, and yes, he's (she's?) accurately answered the question.
I don't know the why of the question: both Mincing and Kane actually answered it in short terms: Banking, and looking for a rational explanation for irrational ATTITUDES, I would say, not necessarily behavior (tho' attitude becomes behavior).
You really want to understand? Read Michner's "The Source"--a fantastic book which shows just how irrational people become over the issue of one religion versus another, and how the situation came to be historically. It's fiction, but as usual with Michner a fascinating read based on FACTS.
One review by just someone who read it, not a "reviewer":Quote:
Are you constantly perplexed by those "Mideast Peace Talks" that have (seemingly) been going on for 14 centuries? And still there is no peace in sight...and there never will be, of course....Well, Mr. Michener gives us a grand overview of the area. You'll find some surprises. Most notably that the Jews and Arabs used to get along pretty well. Not bosom buddies, of course, but better than they do now. But, I digress. What we have here is history and novel twined together in a fascinating way. Through the device of an archaeological dig, Michener provides personal stories of the folks who have populated the troubled region since prehistoric times. We have love, we have brutality, we have slavery, we have butchery, we have treachery, we have sieges outside the stone walls, we have a secret tunnel through the rock....and love again. It's life itself: messy but wonderful. And you get a nice history lesson along the way. Great book. You'll like it.
If you really want to search out some truths, you'll find them there.
Wikipedia tries:Quote:
If you want it broken down:
Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilisations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then.Quote:
Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:
Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."
Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."
Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."
Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)
Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."
As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:
Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were hated.
Chosen People -- a) In the late 19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the anti-Semites tolerate them.
Scapegoat -- Any group must already be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's ranting and ravings would not be take
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Hey, hey, hey, just found this:Quote:
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10081366
Israel is moving to amend the country's planning procedures on sensitive political decisions following an embarrassing diplomatic flap during a visit this week by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, a Cabinet minister said Friday.
The change endorsed by a parliamentary legislation committee Thursday will require a representative of the prime minister to be present when development plans are approved. The change aims to ensure the country's leader is not caught off guard by politically charged decisions, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he was by the approval of 1,600 new homes for Jews in east Jerusalem during Biden's visit.
Both Biden and the Palestinians sharply condemned the Israeli settlement decision.
Netanyahu apologized for the timing, though not the substance, of the announcement.
Biden's trip this week, aimed at renewing Mideast peace efforts as well as repairing Israel-U.S. ties strained precisely by disagreements over Israeli settlement construction, was overshadowed by the Israeli move.
Netanyahu said he was not aware of the decision — announced by Israel's Interior Ministry — before it was made public, and released a statement saying he had reprimanded the Cabinet minister responsible. There has been no indication he took further action against those involved
The proposed amendment to planning procedures was initiated by the country's welfare minister, Isaac Herzog of the centrist Labor Party. "This initiative is necessary to prevent similar mishaps in the future," Herzog said in a statement released by his office Friday.
The amendment must still be approved by parliament.
Israel's announcement of more east Jerusalem construction angered Palestinians, who had agreed only days earlier to begin indirect peace talks with Netanyahu's government, dropping an earlier demand for a full settlement freeze before talks begin. Netanyahu has agreed only to a limited slowdown that does not include east Jerusalem, which Israel sees as part of its capital.
Okay, it may be bullshit, nothing may change. But MAYBE, just maybe, Biden made a dent--they want our backing, they know Obama's not the unquestioning Israel backer Dumbya was...maybe? Just maybe?
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Quote:
There are just as many people who want to wipe MUSLIMS off the earth in my country as there are wanting to wipe Jews off the earth in the Middle East.
There are 300 million Americans. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world....
Americans who want to WIPE Muslims off the face of the Earth? Probably no more than 0.05% of all Americans.( Unless you count the extreme enviro-whack jobs, who want to reduce human population to 500 million, or some such... .)
"Some of my best friends are..... " Yeah, I refuse to use that phrase either, for the simple reason, I don't believe in having a quota for folks I associate. It simply does not apply.
Quote:
I was, in my own vague way, on their side until the past few years. The things they have done and are doing now are just as oppressive as what was done to them...in many cases worse.
I have to assume you mean in RECENT history. Since the founding of Israel. So pease, ENLIGHTEN ME!!
You say that Israel , the Jews, the PEOPLE, how ever you want to phrase it, deserve their own state, and are due the right to live. Fine! We agree! But one must be pragmatic here, and understand, you can't have ANY of those things and not tick off a few folks , especially if those folks happen to have a religious agenda bent against - EVERYONE ELSE.
I guess my biggest gripe would be... much of what the IDF and the Jewish Gov't is ACCUSED of doing is either straight up fabricated or taken greatly out of context, by omitting what was done TO them in the first place, by the other side.
It's like , well, it's like something else I can think of. The terrorists ( not all Muslims, not all Palestinians ) can do anything and everything under the sun, and no one bats an eye. And sure, folks will agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, but when it actually DOES something, the propaganda machines are up and running, at full speed.
No one wants to hold the PLO/ Hamas accountable, but all HELL breaks loose if Israel dares to color outside of the lines or screws up ONCE.
For the life of me, I cannot understand it.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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I think you're mistaking me, Niki.
I am pointing out that they are as guilty as misbehavior previous to WWII as anyone else, and ignoring that fact improperly frames things in a skewed fashion to begin with - doesn't justify nothin, and as for "deserving of condemnation", well shit, if you wanna get on that subject I also pointed out elsewhere that bloody massacre is kinda the usual dispute resolution policy in the middle east and has been for like a thousand years.
Ain't sayin it's RIGHT, just pointing out how it looks to the people involved from an internal point of view, and while every culture has a history of breaking treaties and agreements, it wouldn't be so MUCH an issue if the current government of Israel wasn't so bloody keen on breaking them over and over before the ink is even dry - so yes, other governments, cultures and theologies *are* going to point the finger and say "See? They can not be trusted!" which makes any resolution of the problem that much harder when they actually got a point to it - not that they're not hypocritical in saying so cause not a one of em is innocent, just sayin that folks ARE going to raise the issue of previous misconduct in light of current misconduct.
There's the way things should be, and the way things ARE.
I can't help it if most of the folk involved are crazy, all I can offer is some understanding of that kind of crazy, so maybe we can find some kind of way to subvert it or stem the tide before it all goes to hell.
What I am bitter and angry about isn't Israels existance, or even their conduct so much, although given the sabotage/espionage against us, their so-called ally, I think there's cause...
What I am bitter and angry about is being their bitch.
I really, REALLY hate that, and when seeing civvies massacred with weapons we gave them for pennies on the dollar, or even free, or that they bought with money we gave them - like that white phosphorous, and a lot of burnt up kids...
I get seriously, passionately ANGRY about it, it's like being forced to pay for a serial killers ammunition, to me, folks do what they do, but forcing me to pay such a huge chunk of taxes (as an independant contractor, I get really reamed on em, too!) and then financing this, this, this...
Insentient inhumanity, is all I can call it, how can I not be virulently angry about it ?
As for Rappy, again, historical behavior - you were not here for it, Niki, but those are far from the most racist, hateful and intolerant things he said, and when taken in context with the rest of the crap he was sayin *at the time* very clear in intent and meaning.
Maybe he's mellowed, but I don't buy it, not when he's willing to shovel that "wiped off the map" comment after it's been shot down no less than three times as a deliberate MEMRI mistranslation aimed at demonising Iran.
Here's more info on that for you.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
The key here, is what it usually is, Israel "agrees" to not keep taking Palestinian land (and mind you, I point out once again the only way to DO this in the middle east is to kill everyone else on it) and before the ink is even dry, goes right on and keeps doing it.
http://news.antiwar.com/2010/03/08/as-peace-talks-loom-more-settlement
s-for-israel/
I don't completely agree with Raimondo, but he's damn sure got a point, and while their own national policy is theirs to set, a lot of people, myself included, are sick of being Israels bitch.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/03/11/biden-in-israel/
It's all nuts, but the settlement issue is the key, cause them settlers move in, harrass, terrorise and slaughter the locals, and then scream for backup when the Palestinians retaliate, and in comes the IDF to "defend Israeli citizens" by ruthlessly slaughtering anyone who so much as looks at em funny...
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
So what are we gonna do, just let em drive the Palestinians into the sea ?
If we can justify airstrikes on supposed WMD sites, we can damn sure certainly justify them against
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Hell Frem...
Why not call it like it is
NATO bombed the shit out of Serbia over Kosavo, if there is to be any consistency NATO should bomb the shit out of Israel until peace is achieved.
Lose the double standards the hard way
( and I would bet that coupled with an Afghan and Iraq withdrawl... troubles with the Muslim world would decrease substantially )
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Cause here in america you can almost, if not actually, be arrested and charged with "anti-semetic hate speech" for even making such a suggestion without wrapping it in either obfuscation and justifications, or fawning apologism.
That's not hyperbole either, they really do have that much of a lock on our society, media* and politics.
Which is one of the things pissin me off so much.
*-Case in point, the US Mainstream Media gets ALL their translations from MEMRI, which oughta explain a lot on even the slightest investigation of that fact.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hey, hey, hey, just found this:Quote:
Israel is moving to amend the country's planning procedures on sensitive political decisions following an embarrassing diplomatic flap during a visit this week by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, a Cabinet minister said Friday.
The guests on Diane Rehm's news roundup yesterday seemed to think that the timing of the approval of new settlements was intended by the real hardliners to embarrass Netanyahu.
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/10/03/12.php#30601
Hour 2, about 7:30 in.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Truest words on this thread.
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
BTW I'm done arguing with Rappy
lost cause
All the "Please enlighten me" blah blah blah, then you tell him, & he yells bullshit.
He knows everything & can be told nothing. If it doesn't fit into his world view, it's lies.
Niki is obviously not sick enough of his crap to dismiss him, even when he pretends to be reasonable.
The laughing Chrisisall
"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010
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Yes, I mean relatively recent history. I’ve actually posted about specific Israeli atrocities before, so I’m not gonna repeat myself (probably would have to spend too much time hunting for those specifics anyway). But saying “much of what the IDF and the Jewish Gov't is ACCUSED of doing is either straight up fabricated or taken greatly out of context, by omitting what was done TO them in the first place, by the other side” is either disingenuous, ignorant of the facts, or brainwashing. There’s tons of stuff you can find if you like on the internet:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11683
http://www.socialistaction.org/foley136.htm
http://www.kawther.info/wpr/2009/03/08/austrians-and-palestinians-agai
nst-israeli-war-crimes-in-gaza
Austria: http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/resources/commentary-and-analysis/
57-broken-the-silence
Germany: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=116469§ionid=351020604
Ireland: http://www.kawther.info/wpr/2009/01/14/irish-foreign-minister-condemns
-israeli-atrocities
America: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/apr2002/demo-a16.shtml
Israeli human rights group: http://www.midwestfreepress.com/2009/09/12/human-rights-group-exposes-
israeli-atrocities/
Even Israeli soldiers have testified to their actions:Quote:
http://www.wideasleepinamerica.com/2009/04/rotten-orchard.html
On March 19th, two months after the 22-day devastation of Gaza and the slaughtering of over 1,400 Palestinians, the Israeli daily newspaper Ha'aretz published harrowing testimonies by numerous Israeli soldiers who had participated in "Operation Cast Lead." The soldiers, all recent graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory program, were speaking at an open academic forum about their recent military experiences and, as Sarah Anne Minkin of Jewish Peace News reports, "confessed that they'd knowingly shot civilians to death in Gaza, that they'd intentionally vandalized Palestinian homes, and that the rules of engagement in the war - rules handed down from above - were exceptionally permissive."Quote:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine.html
"The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction. The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure."
--Rabbi David Batzri, head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem [Israeli newspaper Haaretz, March 21, 2006]
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]Quote:
http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=0&cmd=articles&page=News
Israeli soldiers admit atrocities against Palestinians
Article&id=12683&start=1
As to “No one wants to hold the PLO/ Hamas accountable, but all HELL breaks loose if Israel dares to color outside of the lines or screws up ONCE”, that is just plain wrong. We hear all about Hamas and the PLO and anything they’ve done wrong, but what we DON’T hear about Israeli atrocities, the rest of the world does. Our media is biased and reflects our government, period.
Frem, I’m glad you clarified to agree “that bloody massacre is kinda the usual dispute resolution policy in the middle east and has been for like a thousand years”, tho’ I don’t think it’s limited to the Middle East. Bearing in mind that I am arguing against Israel’s actions as well, quite fervently, my only objection is that you were essentially saying the JEWS deserved condemnation throughout history, and there I disagree and say many religions/nations do as well.
Gino is putting it into context to a degree; there is a double standard at work and has been throughout the US’ history. There is censorship of the news in our country so that people believe that Israel is merely defending itself, while we don't hear much about their atrocities against the Palestinians.
Chris, I’m as sick of his crap as anyo
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Geezer, you may well be right...and they may wonder, too:Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/03/14/israel.biden/index.html?hpt=
Israel to probe housing announcement
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has set up a team to investigate why officials announced new settlement construction in disputed territory while U.S. Vice President Joe Biden was visiting the country.
Netanyahu announced the probe Sunday after a meeting with ministers the day before.
T2
May well be a move to derail any possible "peace talks"...maybe they got too close to actually talking? (Gawd forbid, of course!)
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Niki
Quote:
Frem, I’m glad you clarified to agree “that bloody massacre is kinda the usual dispute resolution policy in the middle east and has been for like a thousand years”, tho’ I don’t think it’s limited to the Middle East.
True, just that the blood soaked sands the middle east are so notorious for it, and imho it's idiotic, I mean, what, really, has it ever much SOLVED ?
Especially when you look back over a thousand years and see how little has changed - I mean, I bust on americans for never seeming to learn from our mistakes, sure, but we're very much not alone in that one!
Quote:
Bearing in mind that I am arguing against Israel’s actions as well, quite fervently, my only objection is that you were essentially saying the JEWS deserved condemnation throughout history, and there I disagree and say many religions/nations do as well.
Ah, not how I meant it - was that they were every bit as guilty as anyone else, and it's offensive that we are supposed to pretend they were perfect little angels prior to WWII and the atrocities visited upon them, that's ridiculous, they are, AND were, just as boneheaded, fulla shit, and capable of being assholes as anyone else, so they are neither paragons of virtue or villainry, although their current government seems hell bent on it to a degree that strikes me as some form of insanity-as-policy, rooted in a deep cultural fear triggered by memories of those atrocities...
Which is why I am very much concerned about that chain of foolishness continuing if Palestine should follow down that dark road and start oppressing some *other* culture eighty to a hundred years from now.
Better to stop this crap now good and proper, than go for the short term in a fashion that all but guarantees it rearing it's head back up in the future.
Quote:
Gino is putting it into context to a degree; there is a double standard at work and has been throughout the US’ history. There is censorship of the news in our country so that people believe that Israel is merely defending itself, while we don't hear much about their atrocities against the Palestinians.
Yeah that drives me into spirals of rage, as I said, it's not just our support of it, but my money payin for it...
Thing is, we talk and we talk, but until I see that flow of cash and weapons stop, or even slow down in the slightest, I don't buy a word of it - all the condemnations in the world don't mean a damned thing when we're still funnelling our resources to em at firehose velocity.
Our so-called-leaders address THAT, I might do something other than sneer at them when they start whining and whinging.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Truest words on this thread.
All the "Please enlighten me" blah blah blah, then you tell him, & he yells bullshit.
He knows everything & can be told nothing. If it doesn't fit into his world view, it's lies.
And this is different from the gang of Leftists on here - how, exactly ?
Oh, I know! I don't start w/ the knee jerk reaction of calling you LIARS on everything which we disagree. So, there is that.
Quote:
Niki is obviously not sick enough of his crap to dismiss him, even when he pretends to be reasonable.
Only it's not pretending. I'm at least ATTEMPTING reason here, which is FAR more a courtesy than some( most )have extend to me. I stated, in clear, direct and non inflammatory manner how I saw the issues and simply asked where it is we diverge on the facts. For that, I'm labeled as 'unreasonable' or a 'liar' by some.
It just don't make no sense no how.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm at least ATTEMPTING reason here, which is FAR more a courtesy than some( most )have extend to me. I stated, in clear, direct and non inflammatory manner how I saw the issues and simply asked where it is we diverge on the facts.
Thanx for the laff.
The laughing Chrisisall
"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Truest words on this thread.
All the "Please enlighten me" blah blah blah, then you tell him, & he yells bullshit.
He knows everything & can be told nothing. If it doesn't fit into his world view, it's lies.
And this is different from the gang of Leftists on here - how, exactly ?
Oh, I know! I don't start w/ the knee jerk reaction of calling you LIARS on everything which we disagree. So, there is that.Quote:
Niki is obviously not sick enough of his crap to dismiss him, even when he pretends to be reasonable.
Only it's not pretending. I'm at least ATTEMPTING reason here, which is FAR more a courtesy than some( most )have extend to me. I stated, in clear, direct and non inflammatory manner how I saw the issues and simply asked where it is we diverge on the facts. For that, I'm labeled as 'unreasonable' or a 'liar' by some.
It just don't make no sense no how.
Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor
Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."
I think the biggest problem Rappy is we have been down that road on this very subject
You don't think the IDF or Israel can or have done wrong...
enough separate sources have been posted over the years, Media, UN, even Israeli sources
but you continue to dismiss it.
If both side are wrong, then why is one side backed unconditionally?
Looking at even the Israeli death totals, the deaths totals are so lop sided and response so out of proportion... it has to make you wonder
as for Gaza, herding them all on to one piece of land doesn't make it a country...
especially when all the source of water and any decent farmlard was cherry picked
and Israel kept control on all border access, money transfers, electrical and water
but I am so sure you will dismiss this, I just don't see the point. Your mind is so made up... why should I try to change it
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Frem, I'm glad you wroteQuote:
Hopefully that will help Mincing see that you weren't concemning Jews, just giving background...which we could give on ANY sect of religion, any nationality, down through history.
Ah, not how I meant it - was that they were every bit as guilty as anyone else, and it's offensive that we are supposed to pretend they were perfect little angels prior to WWII and the atrocities visited upon them, that's ridiculous, they are, AND were, just as boneheaded, fulla shit, and capable of being assholes as anyone else.
Anyone ever see "Gentleman's Agreement"? Very old movie, about a guy who pretended to be Jewish, let the rumor mill run with it, then saw what happened. It was an unpleasant reaction to watch, but the movie was classic as to how Jews were treated earlier in American history.
I still say it's looking for a reasonable answer to an unreasonable attitude, which has been true of any "other" in any society. Applies to African Americans even more, tho' since they were originally slaves, it's expected that it would be harder to change the mind set.
Humans fear the unknown, and fear is usually turned to hate--THAT's the reasonable answer to the reasonable question. They still do and probably always will, sadly. Strange little species, we are...
Raptor, yes, you seem to be asking civil questions. But given they've been answered IN DEPTH here and before, it's bound to make one wonder if you're really asking seriously or not. I've not seen you give one INCH, and your statement that "No one wants to hold the PLO/ Hamas accountable, but all HELL breaks loose if Israel dares to color outside of the lines or screws up ONCE" is so outside reality that I can't help but question your motives. We hear all the time about how horrible Hamas, etc., are, and have to dig to find out about the atrocities of Israel (in this country), that what you said doesn't make sense. So I'm quitting trying to "answer" what I don't think are actual questions, however civilly they may be posed.
I haven't called you any names...if it were possible, I'd suggest you treat people as they treat YOU, rather than lumping and calling anyone who disagrees with you (which I recognize you haven't done to me, in this thread). But I'm pretty convinced you'd neither hear me nor care.
The time involved in trying to respond to your questions just isn't worth it, when it does no good.
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Frem, if anyone were to accuse you of anti-semitism, it wouldn't be for insufficient fawning, or for your politics, but rather for statements like:
"...well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."
I don't think anyone in this thread has maintained that jews, pre-holocaust, were anything other than people--certainly not innocent angels--and people are flawed. But I do believe that you have maintained, or at least intimated, that the persecution of the jews is historically justified by their actions. Just to be clear. This is where background and condemnation blurr together.
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Wasn't my intention.
Seriously, folks'd be just as "justified" saying us americans are dictator-supporting pricks, which is in fact true, but of debateable utility in justifying terrorism against em since most of us are against supporting em, and the would-be victims of said terrorism are all too likely to be those people.
What I was busting chops on was the bullshit myth that the jewish people were perfect little angels without a sin in the world when Hitler started riling up people against them, and that they had never engaged in any wrongdoing of their own.
THAT is bullshit, and to start debate from that point frames it in a skewed manner by pre-loading moral questions better asked in a longer historical perspective.
To narrow a debate regarding cultures that have existed for a very long time in proximity to each other to a single decade or century, cherry picked, in this fashion, is inherently dishonest.
That's as bad as the myth that the muslims hate the jews and always have, when in truth they have a much LONGER history of supporting each other against christian persecution, but when you frame the debate so narrowly as to not acknowledge this, you're starting from a dishonest beginning.
And it's kind of a tribute to the strength of that bullshit myth about what perfect little angels they were that when some asshole like me starts poking holes in the story it triggers such a reaction...
-F
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frem, i haven't called you asshole, or anything else for that matter. unless i have, in which case, please excuse me for being an asshole. all i've tried to do is call your attention to some of the words you've used. i appreciate your response, but still maintain that there is a world of difference between asserting that no, contrary to our pious holocaust narratives, some jews sucked; and blaming the victim for their victimization. just be sensitive to how one easily blends into the other, is all i would ask of you.
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Point taken, but a combination of outrage at the fawning servility we're supposed to treat their current government with, rage at being forced to finance its abuses, and disgust for the whole bloody mess doesn't exactly make that an easy thing to do, yanno.
-F
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I can understand people's anger at present day Israel and its actions - Frem, I can't understand your (apparent?) anger at Jews throughout history... What have they done besides being ousted from their native land and living as conspicuous minority in intolerant foreign countries - and generally being the whipping boy of history?
I kind of agree with Mincing: to me, some of those words were dripping with anti-semitism - perhaps fresh from a place you've been swimming recently, some reading material with an anti-jewish message perhaps?
Be careful with this - for people who feel the system is failing and rotten, blaming the unseen hand of 'world jewry' is the oldest, most seductive explanation in the book.
Heads should roll
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You want it in a nutshell ?
This.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
And that attitude persists in the modern day Likud party, which is still quite a force, politically.
Why is it that pointing out they were just as bad as everyone else in the region is antisemetism, why is it that pointing out they've engaged in terrorism, espionage and sabotage, antisemetism ?
And why is it that despite me saying as much time and time again, that this in no way justifies much of the bullshit pulled on them by others, folks jump right to that assumption on the slightest criticism against their actions ?
Conditioning.
Question it.
-Frem
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Quote:
This.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
And that attitude persists in the modern day Likud party, which is still quite a force, politically.
I can understand links being drawn from the Irgun to the modern state of Israel. What I can't understand is your drawing those links *backwards* to explain in part why Jews were so reviled and persecuted in Europe for centuries.
It's true the Jews are not a race of doe-eyed victims - that's clear from Israel's modern (and ancient?) military history. But you're tarring centuries of oppressed European Jews with the brush of what some of their descendants would do many years later...?
I feel a similar sense of anger towards some muslims in my country who outwardly refuse to commemorate the Holocaust. No matter how angry and disgusted you get at Israel's modern actions it should not stop you in any way feeling sorry for the sad story of the European Jews. As soon as you do you're becoming callous towards a whole race of people, and that's scary.
Heads should roll
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Major good point, KPO:Quote:
Double scary, actually. Making any race the "other" dehumanizes them, which makes them easier to hate, which makes that hate easier to manipulate, which makes them easier to persecute, etc. etc. It's one of the main problems with humans...and few are immune to it, in some form or another.
As soon as you do you're becoming callous towards a whole race of people, and that's scary
"Blacks came from Africa; they're primitives" (they were once, compared to us), "Mexicans are lazy, they just lay arond midday" (they did in their homeland, because of the heat), "Muslims are terrorists, look at their history" (those who are terrorists are so because of indoctrination to see US as the "other" and dehumanize US); pick one, pick ANY, you can find justification for looking down on any other culture. It's just plain wrong.
Mind you, I dislike the French (despite being the daughter of a French immigrant) and I know have my own prejudices against them which are not realistic, but the Jews are entirely too convenient a target and have been for centuries. I don't think any people's past actions should be used to justify anything currently. NOR should past persecution, something we Americans are a bit too stuck in. Propagandized with "Exodus" and all the rest (and loving underdogs and being unable to see Israel in any other light) have brainwashed us; time to treat them according to how they behave NOW. JMHO
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Oddly enough, KPO, if you go back somewhat further, before the Irgun and whatnot, they weren't near as bad as history makes em out to be *at that point*, since most of the history up till then was written by the christians who persecuted them, and therefore loaded with it's own justifications, many of them questionable in their veracity.
I mean, hell, look at how all three beliefs got on in concert and peace in Medina once Mohammed wrote the Medina Compact as a set of guidelines for living together without conflict, something which I think could, and should, be brought up as a current issue since it's tied deeply into the history and culture of all three beliefs and fully compatible with them - if we'd quit playin favorites and get behind a NEW Medina Compact we could probably get all but the worst fanatics on board because of that religious compatibility and just how deeply religion influences culture of the people in question.
And yes, the lot of jews did suck, often as not caught up in a lot of bullshit going on and without even the military might to be an active participant, at least during the crusades the muslim cultures could field powerful military forces - and much of the time did shelter persecuted jews as well, which I have noted.
And that in part seems to have lead to a certain cultural and social paranoia, which the Likud and other factions amplifies and plays on to keep power, and has gone to a place I think qualifies as a form of national insanity - but yanno, I don't feel sorry for their government, but their *people* ?
A little, although not much given how rare refuseniks are - there's a certain courage in NOT pulling a trigger too, as I have pointed out regarding a certain nameless tank driver in Tiananmen Square that day - and while I comprehend the level of cultural paranoia and indoctrination involved in this, comes a time when "just following orders" is no defense.
Same for the other side, cause just as you have the Likud stroking fear and paranioa to keep in power and then throwing poor shleps who mostly don't know any better into the fray to keep the bodycount going, so too do you have muslim leaders on the other side doing exactly the same goddamn thing, and those bastards NEED each other, cause each one keeps the other in power, and they damn well know it.
And the ones that suffer worst are the poor dumb bastards destined from the cradle to be cannon fodder to one or the other, and yeah, I do feel sorry for THEM, maybe not as much as I should, but I do - the leaders, not so much.
While there's been some progress on that kind of crap in Afghanistan via supporting literacy through RAWA (and subsequently showing them what the Quaran *really* says about some of those actions, cause it's got some strong words about mistreatment of prisoners, women and noncombatants) - given the IDF's habit of blowing the damned schools up I dunno how effective that'd be in Palestine.
Anyhows, some might call that limited sympathy callous, but one might also recall that is coming from someone who even as an emotionally stunted, nihilistic seventeen year old kid who had just lost the greater part of his family, and was LOOKING for a rationale to commit sanctioned slaughter - when handed the now-infamous twentynine palms survey decided "No, I will *not* kill someone over this, not for you, not for anyone." and wrecked what might have been a promising military career on the spot.
So my sympathies for those without the moral courage to refuse to pull a trigger, aren't that great - sorry, but there it is.
Charged as this issue is, I've been as rational as possible about it, and while that's maybe less than some would like, it's a damn sight better than most folk ever manage, yanno ?
So some cred for tryin here, willya ?
-F
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Well the Palestinians are protesting and the rest of the Islamic world are watching to see what Obama does with this settlement issue. I hope he makes a stand and shows Israel that we are going to stop supporting these acts of aggression.
It is time someone took their sword and pounded it into a plowshare. There is a need to construct peace between Israel and Palestine, not contruct 16,000 more habitats for Israelis on Palestine land.
I would rather see Israel make the gesture without us pushing them, but if requires us to get tough then we should start cutting our support.
http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler
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Quote:
And that in part seems to have lead to a certain cultural and social paranoia, which the Likud and other factions amplifies and plays on to keep power
This to me is just pretty standard right wing reactionary politics, not specific to Israel - only Israel's circumstances are specific.
You wish Israelis would disassociate with their government and military more? The military has preserved the survival of the nation on more than one occasion. Just because the country is paranoid doesn't mean there aren't people out there trying to kill them...
To my mind Israel needs peace-loving conscientious people *in* its army, not as objectors - to preserve a culture of respect for civilian life within the military, and also to provide accountability if there are orders from on high that are unethical.
But I guess you probably view the actions of Israel's military in a darker light than I do. And I can understand where you're coming from with your view of Israel having a kind of 'national insanity'... don't personally buy it though. It's when criticism of Israel strays into meditations on the 'Jewish nature' that I think we have to be alarmed - like acts of violence and barbarism are specific to just one group of humanity?
That said, I do think some cultures are more militant and warlike than others (like Prussian, and pre-WW2 Japanese?), and I do believe we have to be allowed to point it out when it's the case. Religion, as we know, is one volatile cultural ingredient that can inspire war. But the historical argument for the Jewish people being violent is just not there for me, and I don't think it's a factor to be included in the story of the Holocaust.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I can understand people's anger at present day Israel and its actions - Frem, I can't understand your (apparent?) anger at Jews throughout history... What have they done besides being ousted from their native land and living as conspicuous minority in intolerant foreign countries - and generally being the whipping boy of history?
I kind of agree with Mincing: to me, some of those words were dripping with anti-semitism - perhaps fresh from a place you've been swimming recently, some reading material with an anti-jewish message perhaps?
Be careful with this - for people who feel the system is failing and rotten, blaming the unseen hand of 'world jewry' is the oldest, most seductive explanation in the book.
Heads should roll
I watched a history channel program that had the Jewish folk, shortly after leaving Egypt wiping out the populations of several groups in order to seize their land...
Only have that show as a source... never really looked further into it.
A different history channel program explored the theory the Jewish folk in Egypt were not slaves, but mercenarys employed by the Pharaohs to keep the slaves under control... the theory went they had a bit of a contract dispute, raided the Pharaoh taking what they considered their back pay by force, and marched east to escape...
Not an area of history I am really familiar with,
anyone have more of a in depth knowledge ?
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Team Biden’s nuke-deal talks are positively absurd after Iran’s latest deadly attack
https://nypost.com/2021/08/06/team-bidens-nuke-deal-talks-are-positive
ly-absurd/
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
That's not actually new, you know, Mohammed pulled it off in Medina back in 622AD.
What is it with you always pushing for open borders and defending mohammedanism and camel jacker terrorist pedophiles?
You see to share a lot with this man who called himself a prophet including sending your fellow Americans 'Death Threats' if they dare might vote the wrong way
Think of Moohammad as a Joe Stalin, Hitler, a Slaver a Jeffery Epstein...I know Americans get obsessed over muh Constitutions Rights
but think of 'Constitution of Medina'
as something that would round up Joe Stalin's useful idiots
and even make the idiots open their borders to the Orc Goblin horde
btw
are you claiming islamism is Democratic now?
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Quote:
FINALLY! Biden goes after Israel!!!
Oh yeah? How's that one going 11 years later?
--------------------------------------------------
Vaccinated People: "You need to get muh vaccination shots that don't work because I got muh vaccination shots that don't work and I'm afraid of people that didn't get muh vaccination shots that don't work because muh vaccination shots that don't work don't work."
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absurd talks they say after latest deadly attack
how long has clownworld existed
...and Iraq took the blame for 911?
Release Details of Saudi Involvement or Stay Away From Memorials, 9/11 Families Tell Biden
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/08/06/release-details-saudi-inv
olvement-or-stay-away-memorials-911-families-tell-biden
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'Biden Administration Offers Weak Response to Israel’s Right Wing Shakeup'
https://truthout.org/articles/biden-administration-offers-weak-respons
e-to-israels-right-wing-shakeup/
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