At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 18:06
VIEWED: 6644
PAGE 1 of 2
Pick one.
A) As long as it's limited to wacky protesters getting beat, designated enemy combatants doing goofy nude photos, and the occasional unlucky Joe getting tazed, I see no reason for alarm.
B) When I, personally, experience abuse at the hands of a representative of government at some time.
C) When I, personally, experience abuse at the hands of a representative of government on a daily or weekly basis.
D) After we become a bonafide fascist dictatorship.
E) Any violation of human rights is enough for alarm- best to be aware of/catch these things while they're still relatively small, lest the fangs of fascism close on us while we sleep.
F) I trust that those in authority have only our best interests at heart, and I resent this "poll", and YOU, Commie Chrisisall, AND your tinfoil hat!!
Respect-for-authority-challenged Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
LoLoLzzzz
When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?
Just askin, cause my tinfoil-hat ass knows exactly what you're saying, but for that you've invoked a mighty tempest from which the hand of God itself will gracefully emerge and come down upon thee as if in an open handed gesture of friendship.....
Just before it flies straight across your face, in what will go down in history as the bitch slap of the 21st century, while he exclaims "Whatchu talkin' bout Willis!?" in a 20 something Gary Coleman's voice. All for foolishly speaking the Devil's words like that.
I pity the fool who disses the Status Quo!!!!!
DISCLAIMER: The above message brought to you by a person who is of date unconfirmed in any religion but thinks about spirituality and lives every day like there is a God, as a human who makes mistakes, and has a track record here for defending God probably more than the bonafide Christians do.
Not that that makes what he said any better. Just sayin' is all....
(NOTE: Firefox is dumber than me because I went to dictionary.com and discovered that bonafide spelling of the word bonafide is bonafide eventhough Firefox keeps telling me that bonafide is spelled wrong as bonafide, buy putting a miniature string of red dots under every single bonafide which I posted in this bonafide idiotic rambling.
Be sure to buy me a beer for snorting your chocolate milk out of your nose when you laughed if you ever see me at Dragon Con.....
Chris too....)
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I would go with E.
Here's why:
When they came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.
Police should taser you if you resist arrest. You have no right to sleep if you’re a known terrorist and an act of terrorism is suspected which you may have information about. You should be bitch slapped upside the head by a 300 lb dude named Ben Dover, if you molest a child.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Oh, 'bout the time two cops shot a student at my girlfriend's college for asking for badge numbers after they beat a drunk dude unconscious for not quietly getting into an ambulance...
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I have major issues with authority, and this stems from the unprofessionalism I've witnessed in my years- from our Presidents to our police. That I have an ax to grind in no way changes the facts of these violations, or their destructive effects upon our society.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.
Laugh it up, fuzzball Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Awesome poem Veteran (or your choice of literary category for it here). One which I remember reading before but couldn't ever tell you where. Most likely, I'm guessing, in an old Disney cartoon that was thrown in the heap of old Disney cartoons too un-PC to be fit for viewing today, like the original cut of Fantasia which had a black girl Centaur slaving away for the white Centaur.
Might I be so bold to add a current event situation similar to that since it hasn't visibley gotten that bad for most yet?
"When they came for the smokers....
I remained silent
I was not a smoker....." ~ 6SJ 
Not to lessen the message by any means. Just in awe of how history repeats itself in so many mysterious, and yet, subtle ways. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"When they came for Finn,
I remained silent;
I was not a MacCumhal".
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I think it does. Having a problem with authority, or have some desire to mischaracterise a president or country you don’t agree with, makes you willing to make accusations that aren’t valid. The truth is that some people spend a great deal of time trying to convince me that we are living in Nazi Germany, yet their horrific accusations never materialize. How many times should I believe someone who repeated screams fire when there is no fire. A population should be vigilant against the encroachment of government power, but vigilance against a threat and crying wolf are two different things. And the more often you cry wolf, the less you’ll be believed, and the more people who cry wolf the less vigilant a people will be. The truth is that screaming about human rights violations by our government when it is nothing more then your issue with authority puts us in more danger, not less.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I have major issues with authority, and this stems from the unprofessionalism I've witnessed in my years- from our Presidents to our police. That I have an ax to grind in no way changes the facts of these violations, or their destructive effects upon our society.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations? Pick one.
It depends. There's sort of a decision/action tree at work, especially in RWED.
IF the alleged violator is not the US or a US ally
THEN no one is ever alarmed
IF the alleged violator is a US ally
THEN Chris's (E option applies
IF the alleged violator is the US
THEN don't wait for evidence or proof, be alarmed!
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Finn, I feel you are as blinded by your need to legitimize authority as you say I am in my resentment of same. As Kirk said, reality is probably somewhere in between us. I am at least ready to acknowledge this possibility...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The truth is that screaming about human rights violations by our government when it is nothing more then your issue with authority puts us in more danger, not less.
Still, how can you possibly justify not FIRING (or not prosecuting) someone in authority who behaves like this?:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1
IMO this is government sanctioned unprofessionalism- at best. At worst it's a symptom of what might be down the road...like getting tazed for jaywalking or not filing your taxes on time...
Chrisisall, alarmist with a cause
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:"When they came for the sheeple,
Originally posted by Geezer:
"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"
I did NOT remain silent;
I did not want my fellow Browncoat Geezer to be mistreated!"
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The truth is that some people spend a great deal of time trying to convince me that we are living in Nazi Germany, yet their horrific accusations never materialize.
Man.... it's really got to mess with your head that I'm trying to convince you that we're two steps away from living in (fictional) '40's Germany when I am probably the largest decryer of the Hollocaust here. lol
It's like a paradox which would cause Bender's CPU to explode.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.
I was going to say the same thing only you said it first and better so given that...I vote "G".
H
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I'm probably somewhere between E and G. I acknowledge -some- of the HR crud is just whining; on the flip side, I consider some of the taser usage that Finn finds acceptable to be unacceptable. For practical purposes, I'm probably much more 'looking at 'E', but keeping 'G' 'in mind'.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
G) When it is actually human right violations, and not just someone calling it that because they have some issue with authority or political or economic ax to grind.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
the sheeple,
"Sheeple" are the result of cross breeding PirateNews and his beloved goat.
Sure they make handsome jackets and good eating...but the crazy talk you have to put up with when fattening them up is too much.
"Baaa-naziJewQueen. Baaa-Bushchildmoester. Baaa-911consipracy."
H
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
At what point?
When we're too lazy, too discouraged, too frightened or too authoritarian-minded to DO anything about it. Because by then well find out that we can't.
Which was, IMHO, about 20 years ago.
BTW:
Quote:Would you taser the President? Would you waterboard a cop? Would you "detain" a solider in solitary for years and years w/o charges? I note for the record that the statement says HUMAN rights, not rights for authority but not for others. Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.
When it is actually human right violations
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Thanks Signy, you never disappoint.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.
Fan of reason Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Would you taser the President?
Only if he was disorderly and refused to calm down. I note for the record that the Secret Service will likely intercede.
Quote:
Would you waterboard a cop?
If he (in his off duty time) was a high ranking Al Queda leader (everybody has a hobby...some of our cops have a band) who had and refused to divulge information that could be used to prevent terrorist attacks, then yes I would authorize it under controlled circumstances and on a limited basis.
Quote:
Would you "detain" a solider in solitary for years and years w/o charges?
I note for the record you failed to specify American soldiers. By the end of World War 2 some 400,000 German, Italian, and Japanese POWs were housed in approximately 500 camps in the United States. Many were conscripted into labor and used to harvest and process crops, build roads and waterways, fell trees, roof barns, etc.
The most dangerous ones were likely held in solitary for months, if not years. The same and worse was true for American soldiers in enemy custody...such is war.
Quote:
I note for the record that the statement says HUMAN rights, not rights for authority but not for others. Once you start parsing out human rights as if they belonged to some but not others you're already there, man.
One, you cannot taint an entire system with a few isolated incidents. There have been what...two incidents of waterboarding since 9/11, both high level Al Queda types, both are in good health, and both yielded results that directly resulted in the prevention of terrorist attacks.
Two, sometimes bad things happen to bad people and oddly...I don't feel real sorry for them. Fact is if they want their rights they need to be a little more cooperative. Without their complete physical and psychological capitulation, then I and the govt can not be held responsible for the consequences of their beligerance.
Three, if an innocent person is abused in any fashion that is a tragedy. However it is not the end of the world. The end of the world is far more likely to happen if our fear, caution, or good intentions prevent us from doing everything we can to stop terrorist attacks.
Four, our primary goal must be the prevention of terrorist attacks. Our respect for human rights is essential, but must always come secondary to survival. After all the Constitution is not a suicide pact and a dead man has no rights human or otherwise.
I would ask you reserve any further comments about human rights until AFTER the terrorists have chopped off your head. At that point your perspective will carry more weight. We'll keep you around in a jar and whenever we need someone to tell us we're too hard on the bad guys we'll get you out of the fridge and listen very carefully to your silent testimony.
H
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Our respect for human rights is essential, but must always come secondary to survival.
Your post was well-worded Hero, and even funny, but I think where we differ is "Survival". You see it like it's an all-or-nothing proposition...if we lose we die...or so it would seem from your post.
We can't be responsible for a rogue Jack Bauer type- but once we legitimize, through legislation or consent, the ways of the savage, then we ARE that savage.
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Your post was well-worded Hero, and even funny, but I think where we differ is "Survival". You see it like it's an all-or-nothing proposition...if we lose we die...or so it would seem from your post.
I guess that I just don't want to leave the issue of our survival to the mercy of our enemies.
Quote:
We can't be responsible for a rogue Jack Bauer type- but once we legitimize, through legislation or consent, the ways of the savage, then we ARE that savage.
I note for the record that Jack Bauer who tortures, murders, and drives without a seat belt...is an EXTREMELY popular character suggesting that the majority of people approve of such actions under the right circumstances (like right before a commercial break). I note for the record that all of life's really bad things happen in the last five or first five minutes of any given hour.
Edited to add: And somebody explain to me how a single, highly trained agent can drive anywhere in LA in five minutes or less but his highly trained team of back up agents is always ten minutes away by helicopter.
H
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:HERO-This is the all-or-nothing part. Enemies. All of them. All willing to drop THE BIG ONE on us if they can.
I guess that I just don't want to leave the issue of our survival to the mercy of our enemies.
In reality, people our are enemies to varying degrees. Some may want to bury/isolate us economically. Others may simply want to thwart our hold on Mideast oil. Others may stand aside and let third parties do the dirty-work. Still others may feel that they need an invulnerable self-defense. Only a few really hate the USA with a white-hot passion aimed at destroying the USA in toto, and those are typically not affiliated with bona-fide nations which generally have a lot to lose in a no-holds-barred fight (altho there are exceptions to everything). Because even our enemies have self-interest. You just learn to create win-win situations where you can, and where you can't you deal in proportionate response. It's called realism. You may have heard of it.
BTW- The USA airwaves are saturated with nonsense like "24". That's what makes us a nation of idiots. Not saying that you are.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Geezer, show me please where I've NOT called Chinese government a bunch of evil neo-comms...
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
I've condemned what's happening at Darfur, the treatment of Palistinians...I hated the South African government way before Lethal Weapon 2 made it fashionable...
Please don't lay that trip on me bro, we actually see eye-to-eye on many things here, K?
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Updrafts.
Originally posted by Hero:
And somebody explain to me how a single, highly trained agent can drive anywhere in LA in five minutes or less but his highly trained team of back up agents is always ten minutes away by helicopter.
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
"When they came for the robbers and murderers
I remained silent,
Because I was not a robber or murderer"
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Touche. Actually, I saw to it that they were aware that they had the right to remain silent.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Geezer, show me please where I've NOT called Chinese government a bunch of evil neo-comms...
I've condemned what's happening at Darfur, the treatment of Palistinians...I hated the South African government way before Lethal Weapon 2 made it fashionable...
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.
I tried a couple of times concerning Zimbabwe, but all I got back was either 'the US does worse' or 'the US government isn't doing enough to stop it'.
I'm very much afraid that here in RWEDland, my earlier theory holds true. If it ain't the US or their allies accused of human rights violations, no one wants to talk about it.
Tell me true, when you started this thread, who were you thinking of as being the human rights violater?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
6SJ,
Don't smoke myself, not counting my twice yearly cigar. But I feel for you and all my friends at the neighborhood bar that have to keep walking outside to have a smoke.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:This was started as a domestically-oriented thread, sparked (if you'll excuse the pun) by a vid I saw of a police officer tasing a guy he pulled over for not listening closely enough.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Tell me true, when you started this thread, who were you thinking of as being the human rights violater?
Once again- I only have a say (and a teenie-tiny one at that) over stuff that happens in the country I am a citizen of, okay? So I'm always gonna start RIGHT HERE.
You think somewhere in Zimbabwe there's a guy right now flaming his fellow citizen for concentrating on problems in ZIMBABWE, and not ever discussing the taser abuse in the U.S.?????
So there Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I don't get your point. I'm willing to agree that these governments abuse human rights. I 'think' the point here is that many of us are in the US and we wish our country to be an 'example of that which is good'. Is that somehow a 'flawed' concept?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
Never a mention of the political repression or prisoners held by Castro's regime in Cuba, for example, but a new Gitmo/waterboarding reference every time you turn around.
People blown up in a pet market in Iraq by Shi'a militias? Not a peep. But show a fragment of a taser video and it's the end of the world.
Couldn't even get up a good sweat over the political repression in Myanmar.
Putin is about to railroad the elections in Russia without comment, but we'll hear over and over how Bush 'cheated' in 2000 and 2004.
Get the point? If you really want to complain about human rights abuses, complain about all of them. Don't pick and choose depending on your prejudices. Evaluate them all fairly based on their degree of seriousness.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:I don't get your point. I'm willing to agree that these governments abuse human rights. I 'think' the point here is that many of us are in the US and we wish our country to be an 'example of that which is good'. Is that somehow a 'flawed' concept?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.
Not a flawed concept, but I don't get that vibe from a lot of folks here. They seem to be saying, as has been noted before, that the US is one of the worst (if not THE worst) human rights abusers, and one step away from replacing the Nazis and Stalin-era Russia as the most evil.
I don't buy that, and think that if all countries were evaluated fairly, with no agenda, the US would be a pretty good example of what is good. I agree that there are things to fix, but if given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Well, it's kinda expected of a dictatorship, and can be usually taken as read that people don't agree with such things. However when it's the enlightened leader of the western world, it has somewhat more of an impact. The question can be asked, how can the western world condemn human rights abuses, while doing the same thing? Do as we say, not as we do?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
When we're condemning human rights abuses, and doing the same ourselves, kinda loses the impact, ya know.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Because people on the board are well-aware that North Korea, Russia and other nations on our "enemies list" violate human rights, and the media faithfully reflects those views.
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
But the press tends to be rather quiet about our allies' violations. For example, Pakistan (our ally du jour) did more to spread nuclear technology throughout the Arab world than any of our so-called enemies. Saudi Arabia has been a repressive regime for decades. Saddam Hussein was our ally at the same time he was dumping chemical weapons on the Kurds. The "freedom fighter" mujahideen were lunatic islamists.
Just providing balance.
Quote:Eh, but that's NOT the choice. If modern Europe is any example of how things work, nations that mind human rights within their own borders ar also better at supporting human rights abroad. So your choice is not only a false dilemma, it may even be 100% backwards.
if given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
When we're condemning human rights abuses, and doing the same ourselves, kinda loses the impact, ya know.
If we were doing the same things, with even close to the same frequency, this might be a valid point.
Please show me all the millions in the US who've been forced into refugee camps by their own government; to be bombed from aircraft, raped and murdered by militias, and have all these actions denied by their government in the face of overwhelming evidence. Happens in Sudan, not here.
Tell me about diversion of donated food from the starving population to maintain an American army thats 20% of the population. No, that would be North Korea.
How about the 8000% inflation and confiscated properties going to the American President's cronies. Zimbabwe.
If that stuff were happening here, I'd be at the barricades. It's not. Not even close. So instead I'll be at the polls.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
How about the 10 million people that we either killed directly or abetted in their murder (thru aid, arms, intel, field support, training, and political cover)? Starting with 2.5 to 5 million Vietnamese.
Also, I'm going to repeat my point about nations that have good human rights records at home having better human rights records abroad. The reason being that human rights "at home" is what nations do when nobody is looking very closely. (Since it takes an egregious act to make the world community sit up and take notice.)
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Right on Geezer,
Same people decrying human rights abuses in the US are perfectly willing to have the US stand by waiting for a UN vote while thousands die. Then if the US does something unilaterally to help people we're imperialist bastards.
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But the press tends to be rather quiet about our allies' violations.
Bull. Unless you've just been watching Fox News(I guess. Never watch it, myself). Stuff about lack of human rights in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. is all over the print, broadcast, and internet media.
Quote:
Geezer - given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.
SignyM - Eh, but that's NOT the choice. If modern Europe is any example of how things work, nations that mind human rights within their own borders ar also better at supporting human rights abroad.
Freedom of speech - Try denying the Holacaust in Germany or several other European countries.
Freedom of religion - Try wearing your Sikh turban to a French school.
Freedom of the press - Try to print a leaked document in England, and get charged under the Official Secrets Act.
Ask the folk in the Muslim ghettoes in France about police violence and racism.
What about the neo-fascist movements in Germany and Italy?
I could go on, but you (should) get the point. Europe ain't that pure when it comes to rights abuses.
Quote:
So your choice is not only a false dilemma, it may even be 100% backwards.
Ah, false dilemma, the new ad hominem.
Seems a perfectly valid question about how you would allocate resources.
If you had the resources (and resources actually are limited, you know) to:
a) either prevent a few thousand drunks and rowdies from being tased,
b)or feed a few hundred thousand starving North Koreans,
but not both, which would you do?
Keep in mind that although in the US, some drunks and rowdies are inappropriately tased, we're already feeding the North Koreans.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
(H) When some pack of idiots forms a Government.
At most, one person can oppress maybe an extended family, if they let em, and they gotta sleep sometime.
At most, one person, under ideal circumstances, could kill maybe a couple dozen people in a day.
A Government can oppress an entire country.
A Government can kill nearly 20,000 people in a day.
Government is the problem, and yet masquerades as it's own solution - it's like the One Ring, sure it's powerful, but that power comes with an inevitable and irrevokable price on those who use it.
In time, every earthly Government has fallen to it, only to be replaced by another, and another, which in turn will also fall to it in an explosive rush of chaos, misery and destruction, and the only check against it whatever is a rabid defense the very moment it inevitably oversteps it's bounds - a defense that, historically, generally fails because it's put into action far too late by people who usually deny the threat until it's unignoreable.
For myself, I think it's time that we, as a species, grew up and quit depending on the surrogate parentage of Government - throw that damn ring back in the fire where it belongs, and get on with evolving in a mental, emotional, and social aspect instead of simply physical, cause emotionally we're still at the have-bigger-club-take-your-stuff level of thought and behavior.
And I really don't think that's gonna happen till we have the ability and drive to get off this puny little rock and out into the universe at large, away from the greedy and grasping hands of that surrogate parentage strangling our humanity in it's crib before it even takes it's first baby steps.
And that's if we manage to do it before some pack of maniacs we handed the power to do it destroys our present living space with nuclear fire and radiation, bioweapons or genetic tinkering to make us more docile and controllable, which WILL happen, or at least be attempted, the moment the powers that be think it's technically viable and feasible to try it.
History is the key to predicting future events Chrisisall - look at the picture from a wider scale and it's usually pretty clear how things are gonna go.
Me, I want off this rock.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How about the 10 million people that we either killed directly or abetted in their murder (thru aid, arms, intel, field support, training, and political cover)? Starting with 2.5 to 5 million Vietnamese.
Yep. Easy to tell you're being objective about this. Obviously the Viet Cong, the North Vietnamese Army, the Chinese and the Russians had nothing to do with any of those deaths. Surprised you didn't bring up all those South Koreans we killed after the peace-loving Peoples Republic and their helpers - Hey, China and Russia again - tried to liberate them.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
For myself, I think it's time that we, as a species, grew up and quit depending on the surrogate parentage of Government - throw that damn ring back in the fire where it belongs, and get on with evolving in a mental, emotional, and social aspect instead of simply physical, cause emotionally we're still at the have-bigger-club-take-your-stuff level of thought and behavior.
Or, more likely, the Giant Purple Wish-granting Grape will come down and make everything all better.
Impossible solutions are not solutions at all. Try suggesting something actually doable for a change.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:The VC were in their own country. What were WE doing there? The way I head it, Ho Chi Minh came to us for help in freeing Vietnam from the French. He figured, having once been a rebellious colony, that we'd understand.
Yep. Easy to tell you're being objective about this. Obviously the Viet Cong, the North Vietnamese Army, the Chinese and the Russians had nothing to do with any of those deaths.
HA!
BTW, I'm not counting WWI, WWII, or the ten million or so natives that we genocided.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
When there is a violation. The real ?...is what to do? Do we fight it with a gun, money, or...?
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Oh, 'bout the time two cops shot a student at my girlfriend's college for asking for badge numbers after they beat a drunk dude unconscious for not quietly getting into an ambulance...
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
When did you become one of them trollfolk, Chrisisall?
I get antsy 'bout stuff like that Chrisisall
Voteronpaulisall.....Really....
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations? Pick one.
It depends. There's sort of a decision/action tree at work, especially in RWED.
IF the alleged violator is not the US or a US ally
THEN no one is ever alarmed
IF the alleged violator is a US ally
THEN Chris's (E option applies
IF the alleged violator is the US
THEN don't wait for evidence or proof, be alarmed!
"Keep the Shiny side up"
he has a point about Rwer's....
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
FredFima..
"Government is the problem,"
No. THIS Govenment is a problem. If the gov. was for the people, by the people...this would not be an issue. When we are stuck with two families running this nation that are both tied to the same CFR anchor...you are correct.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Impossible solutions are not solutions at all. Try suggesting something actually doable for a change.
Oh you're completely welcome to cling in fear to big daddy Govs leg screaming about how it's scary outside, if you like...
Not all of us are so afflicted.
FIRST, design a ship that doesn't NEED to take off and land in a damn gravity well, as a start.
THEN use those piece of shit shuttles to carry the parts to the L5 point and put em together.
THEN start actively experimenting in a nearby, known environment with deep space operation, and learn how to DO it.
But as mentioned elsewhere, the LAST thing any earthly Government wants is it's slaves out of it's effective reach and threat...
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The VC were in their own country.
And the NVA regulars, and the Chinese and Russians?
Besides, I know firsthand how the VC fought. Torture and terror were their stock in trade. Remember the My Lia massacre and the outrage at that? the VC did that, and worse, on a daily basis. I spent a year there receiving front-line reports, straight from the field, like, "VC entered village of X. Killed village chief and family. Killed school teacher and family. Kidnapped 4 teenage boys. Stole all rice." every day. Don't talk to me about the VC.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh you're completely welcome to cling in fear to big daddy Govs leg screaming about how it's scary outside, if you like...
Not all of us are so afflicted.
FIRST, design a ship that doesn't NEED to take off and land in a damn gravity well, as a start.
THEN use those piece of shit shuttles to carry the parts to the L5 point and put em together.
THEN start actively experimenting in a nearby, known environment with deep space operation, and learn how to DO it.
But as mentioned elsewhere, the LAST thing any earthly Government wants is it's slaves out of it's effective reach and threat...
Oh, grow the fuck up.
Edited to add:
Dumbass. Wait til the government builds a starship and then hijack it. See RAH's Metheuselah's Children.
Re-edited to add:
...or Jefferson Airplane's Blows Against The Empire{/u].
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Three, if an innocent person is abused in any fashion that is a tragedy. However it is not the end of the world.
Better a 1,000 innocient men be imprisoned for life than one "bad guy" go free.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I note for the record that Jack Bauer who tortures, murders, and drives without a seat belt...is an EXTREMELY popular character suggesting that the majority of people approve of such actions under the right circumstances (like right before a commercial break).
The right circumstances, in this instance, being propoganda under the guise of an mega-action thrill-ride that is written, performed, and directed so well, that it has no problem keeping millions of American's eyes glued to the tube for an hour every week.
Way to distinguish reality from fantasy. I've seen Vanilla Ice music videos that keep it more "real" than 24. Not suggesting that it's not entertaining though.
Anybody old enough to have stopped believing in the Tooth Fairy should be old enough to know that real life is nothing like 24, and whether it be only for advertizing revenue, or much more nefarious purposes such as propoganda and subversive indoctrination, anybody who allows a TV show to control the way they think about the world or the people living it are being played like violins.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
6SJ,
Don't smoke myself, not counting my twice yearly cigar. But I feel for you and all my friends at the neighborhood bar that have to keep walking outside to have a smoke.
You're a good man Vet....
I have a feeling that a lot more people look at it the way you and my brother do than the media would ever admit to. Watch too much of that idiot box and you'll start believing that everyone in the world wants to give up all of their rights and let the government micromanage their entire lives so they can feel safe and warm.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
Never a mention of the political repression or prisoners held by Castro's regime in Cuba, for example, but a new Gitmo/waterboarding reference every time you turn around.
People blown up in a pet market in Iraq by Shi'a militias? Not a peep. But show a fragment of a taser video and it's the end of the world.
Couldn't even get up a good sweat over the political repression in Myanmar.
Putin is about to railroad the elections in Russia without comment, but we'll hear over and over how Bush 'cheated' in 2000 and 2004.
Get the point? If you really want to complain about human rights abuses, complain about all of them. Don't pick and choose depending on your prejudices. Evaluate them all fairly based on their degree of seriousness.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Quite honestly Geezer, I couldn't give a shit less about what happens in other countries. If we weren't so busy meddling everywhere else in the world, we could have locked down our borders and made immigration very hard legally and damn near impossible otherwise. (Eliminating any threat of someone with "evil" intentions from outside coming in, thus bringing us back to a "cold war" state at the absolute worst, should Putin's ascendance of power or China's strenghtening economy become a imminent threat).
But where do you get off talking to me about shit in Russia when we've got the enemy living here stateside? Just how many of those illegals who came up from Mexico do you suppose might be terrorists just waiting for the go signal to start firebombing churches, schools and malls?
(And before you say anything silly, I don't mean Mexican terrorists..... because the only nationality that comes up by the millions every year from the south are Mexican's right?)
And no, the Real ID is not the answer.
Let's fix our own shit and then we'll worry about the rest of the world. I don't see how the hell we get off telling the world how to live their lives and run their countries when we are the epitome of decadence and self-indulgant behavior and hypocracy in the world.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:And I know too. I'm not a dumbass who talks about the "heroic" VC. So what? WE were there. Doing very much the same. And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)
Besides, I know firsthand how the VC fought. Torture and terror were their stock in trade. Remember the My Lia massacre and the outrage at that? the VC did that, and worse, on a daily basis. I spent a year there receiving front-line reports, straight from the field, like, "VC entered village of X. Killed village chief and family. Killed school teacher and family. Kidnapped 4 teenage boys. Stole all rice." every day. Don't talk to me about the VC.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Weren't you just telling me about degrees earlier? Does any of this really compare to 'extraordinary rendition'? There’s neo-fascist movements in America as well, and the official secrets act has been tested in court, and it doesn't hold up for cases of whistle blowing. Frankly if a tabloid was to get hold of top secret information that put service people at risk, and printed it, I have no problem with them and whoever leaked it being nailed to the wall.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Freedom of speech - Try denying the Holacaust in Germany or several other European countries.
Freedom of religion - Try wearing your Sikh turban to a French school.
Freedom of the press - Try to print a leaked document in England, and get charged under the Official Secrets Act.
Ask the folk in the Muslim ghettoes in France about police violence and racism.
What about the neo-fascist movements in Germany and Italy?
A situation, I note that is also provided for under US law. I also note, that on the whole the British press can be found to attack the British government far more thoroughly than I tend to see from most other countries, despite the apparent complete lack of 'freedom of the press' over here.
You did rather sidestep the point though. If you're happy with the US or other western nations "not being as bad as Zimbabwe" then more power to you. Personally I don't use "better than a tin pot dictatorship" as my yard stick.
Someone can be realistic and still decry Human Rights abuses where ever they come from. Before I mention the words "the leader of the free world shouldn't be locking people up and throwing away the key", I have to condemn every tin pot dictator? Are Americas Gulags ok, because they only intern a few hundred people, while China’s intern thousands?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Don't look now, you young folk, but this country is in worse shape than during the McCarthy commie witch hunts.
You already live in a fascist state - the fascists just haven't moved to total enforcement, yet.
Keep your weapons and clothes where you can find them in the dark!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WE were there. Doing very much the same.
Once again, Bull.
I was there. I received the reports every day, and then talked to the guys who sent them.
Here's what "village chief and family murdered" really meant.
If they were lucky, the VC did just murder them quickly. If the VC commander was more of an ideologue or more creative, they'd tie the chief to a post and disembowel him, making sure he stayed alive. Then they'd torture and kill his sons in front of him, then rape, torture and kill his wife and daughters. A couple of the commanders with a flair for the dramatic might then behead the chief's family and mount their heads on stakes where the chief couldn't avoid seeing them. The VC would then threaten to kill any villager who tried to help, or even move, the chief, steal all the food, kidnap all the young men, and leave.
No. We weren't 'doing very much the same'.
Edited to add:
"And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)"
The Soviet Union and Chinese were providing direct military aid to the Viet Minh starting in the early 1950's. Try checking your facts for a change.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Weren't you just telling me about degrees earlier? Does any of this really compare to 'extraordinary rendition'? There’s neo-fascist movements in America as well, and the official secrets act has been tested in court, and it doesn't hold up for cases of whistle blowing. Frankly if a tabloid was to get hold of top secret information that put service people at risk, and printed it, I have no problem with them and whoever leaked it being nailed to the wall.
A situation, I note that is also provided for under US law. I also note, that on the whole the British press can be found to attack the British government far more thoroughly than I tend to see from most other countries, despite the apparent complete lack of 'freedom of the press' over here.
You did rather sidestep the point though. If you're happy with the US or other western nations "not being as bad as Zimbabwe" then more power to you. Personally I don't use "better than a tin pot dictatorship" as my yard stick.
Someone can be realistic and still decry Human Rights abuses where ever they come from. Before I mention the words "the leader of the free world shouldn't be locking people up and throwing away the key", I have to condemn every tin pot dictator? Are Americas Gulags ok, because they only intern a few hundred people, while China’s intern thousands?
WTF?
Me an Cit finally found an issue that we agree on probably about 80% at least if we were to sit down and have a long talk about it.
I'ma have a beer and celebrate.
One point I'd like to make though..... I think our press does one hell of a job bashing our Government, but only one side of it. The Rethuglican side. Today they very rarely ever pick on the "ideals" or the spoken word of Demonocracy.
As you're probably well aware by now, I fear one side just as much as I do the other. Why do you suppose that even a lot of Democrats are supporting Ron Paul?
I believe that it is because most "moderates" on either side are likely Libertarians, but they don't even know it because we're a Government of black and white... Neo Conservative or Commie Liberal.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I was there. I received the reports every day, and then talked to the guys who sent them.
Here's what "village chief and family murdered" really meant.
If they were lucky, the VC did just murder them quickly. If the VC commander was more of an ideologue or more creative, they'd tie the chief to a post and disembowel him, making sure he stayed alive. Then they'd torture and kill his sons in front of him, then rape, torture and kill his wife and daughters. A couple of the commanders with a flair for the dramatic might then behead the chief's family and mount their heads on stakes where the chief couldn't avoid seeing them. The VC would then threaten to kill any villager who tried to help, or even move, the chief, steal all the food, kidnap all the young men, and leave.
No. We weren't 'doing very much the same'.
I wasn't there, and that makes me highly suspect of any "facts" that somebody else wasn't there tells me they read in a book or saw on TV.
I do, however, have a great deal more faith in an individual who was there and can vouch that they did see this going on.
Geezer, you fall somewhere in between there, but much closer to actually having seen the events yourself than having been a 13 year old in high school today giving me your interpretation of a topic rewritten 5 times in the history books over the decades.
That's not to say that I believe you, but let's just say that if we were playing Hold 'Em right now and i thought that maybe you and Signy were bluffing me right now when everyone else folded around to me, I'd be a lot more worried about what you were holding in your hand than what Signy had in his with my pair of 8's.
Sorry Signy. Know we agree on most stuff, especially on this topic, but I am trying to filter out a lot of stuff I hear and I read and not automatically flock to information from any source that will validate my opinions. I myself cannot say that what we have done to "terrorists" is as bad as what the VC did.
I truly don't believe that we do anything as torturous to prisoners (at least physically and mortally) as Geezer said the VC did above. But having some experience in BD/SM before, I can say that mental torture and manipulation can be a hell of a ride, and most likely, a bitch of a downer if the people giving you the torture are looking for a lot more than simply your satisfaction and your money.
I don't really know who I'm arguing over this point right now, if anybody..... just more mindless ramblings from one who is trying to come to terms that the more he knows, the less he really knows.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Grow up ?
It's not me who has a percieved need to cling to some Government as an authority surrogate to make their decisions for them.
So what options should I be lookin at then ?
Boil it down, ya only got three, Fight, Flight and Bend over for The Man.
Given the near futility of the first one, cause first ya gotta fight all the infants who think you wanna murder their daddy... and the repulsiveness of the third, that leaves only one viable option - and go on, find a spot on this planet not claimed by some Government.
I have wanted off this rock since 1977, the very moment I began to realize what a horrific thing our society really is under all the whitewash, and having watched what it has become in the time between then and now, I cannot say I want it any less now.
The same thing that drives Mal is what drives me, get your Gov out of my life, my business, my wallet and my fridge - leave me be, or let me go.
I think, having watched the show, at least, you'd understand that.
As for the VC, Jack - go do some homework on Operation Phoenix.
And yes, it was under Bill Colby, and certainly not the least he had to answer for, but good luck questioning his ass now, unless one plans to hold a seance, cause he... "had an accident".
Bad shit goes on in a war, everyone does it, everyone denies it, while exaggerating what the "other guy" did... part of why it's a bad idea to start one - I'm sure the VC told horror stories about what our Phoenix guys did too, not just ours, but the South Viet stringers who were settling other issues outside the scope of the work.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I'm thinking that except for the note you left for me at the bottom of your post, this wasn't directed at me Frem, but I can't tell because I don't know who you were addressing.
Had I said something that ruffled your feathers? "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Nah, I was responding to Geezers "Grow the fuck up" comment, the only thing he could, or would, say to the opinion I handed him.
Guess I struck a nerve with him, cause usually we get along well enough here.
-F
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
LOL....
What a strange topic, huh?
I was just commenting on how much Cit and I think alike here and that almost never happens. As long as Religion and Science aren't part of that equation, I reckon that me and Cit probably agree on a whole ton of stuff.
And of course I'd have to do some reading on the VC myself. All I know 'em from is some videogame I played when I was a kid. Guess that's why I'm showing Geeze a bit of respect here.....
Then again, I don't even know if Geeze is even a dude, let alone someone who served back in the day because of the beauty of Anonymity on the un-tainted Net.....
But I'd rather leave the choice up to me as who to believe instead of having a Government controlled internet one day in the not so distant future where not only can I know if you're actually male, but I'll know your age, religion, sexuality, medical records, criminal history, credit history, blood type, favorite pizza topping, etc.... "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Just wanted to add....
Does anybody else have abnormally long loading times when you're trying to post here? It's only on this particular site for me, and only when I post in the RWED.
I swear... somebody is reading my posts.
(end tinfoil-hat display) "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WE were there. Doing very much the same.
Once again, Bull.
No. We weren't 'doing very much the same'.
Edited to add:
"And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)"
The Soviet Union and Chinese were providing direct military aid to the Viet Minh starting in the early 1950's. Try checking your facts for a change.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
I was there too, treating both the villagers and the interrogated (by 'friendlies') We were doing much the same, only on a smaller scale. Being short handed, we worked the morgue, too. ....Some people just wouldn't talk....and we or our surrogates did that
BTW, if you check your facts, you'll see that 'uncle Ho' came to reps of the US and asked our help to get the French out. When we said 'no' he asked the Chinese who said 'yes.' and so it began....
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You didn’t hand Geezer your “opinion.” You handed him a load of bullshit. And it wasn’t even good bullshit, because it wasn’t even consistent with your previous loads of craps. How do you plan on building your superdooder space station without government? I guess you think that in your utopian anarchy everyone will happily and willingly do whatever you want them too.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Nah, I was responding to Geezers "Grow the fuck up" comment, the only thing he could, or would, say to the opinion I handed him.
Guess I struck a nerve with him, cause usually we get along well enough here.
-F
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Very possibly.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
As long as Religion and Science aren't part of that equation, I reckon that me and Cit probably agree on a whole ton of stuff.
Quote:Don’t you use FireFox? I usually use Opera, but I’ve noticed this site is particularly optimised for IE, and it makes the render times under standards browsers like FF and Opera really long.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Does anybody else have abnormally long loading times when you're trying to post here? It's only on this particular site for me, and only when I post in the RWED.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I don’t know what this site is optimized for, but it's loading times can be crap in internet explorer too. This site must be on a network that sees a lot of activity with higher priority then us.
Originally posted by citizen:
Don’t you use FireFox? I usually use Opera, but I’ve noticed this site is particularly optimised for IE, and it makes the render times under standards browsers like FF and Opera really long.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Don’t you use FireFox? I usually use Opera, but I’ve noticed this site is particularly optimised for IE, and it makes the render times under standards browsers like FF and Opera really long.
Yeah.... I use Firefox. And I've always loved it. Recently though if you look in your processes tab in task manager the cpu utilization is pretty damn high sometimes and Firefox isn't even doing anything. I love the new feature where if Firefox or Windows craps out on you it will reload every single window and tab you had open before the crash, but I have to say (even after I reformatted and reinstalled Windows 4 days ago finally because I couldn't properly edit videos anymore) that Firefox still crashes a ton more for me now than it ever used to. Until a month or two ago with new updates, I rarely if ever had a problem with Firefox.
Opera is cool too and I love their ability to continue a download if your session ended prematurely.
Just recently had a problem posting on here no matter where I do it from. I have no choice but IE at work.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:That's also true. The standards browsers are particularly hard hit though, Opera times out my machine when running this site, but if I have Opera and IE side by side with fff in IE, not a problem.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t know what this site is optimized for, but it's loading times can be crap in internet explorer too. This site must be on a network that sees a lot of activity with higher priority then us.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
"You didn’t hand Geezer your “opinion.” You handed him a load of bullshit. And it wasn’t even good bullshit, because it wasn’t even consistent with your previous loads of craps. How do you plan on building your superdooder space station without government? I guess you think that in your utopian anarchy everyone will happily and willingly do whatever you want them too."
Wow, looks like I *did* strike a nerve, you puling facist whiner.
Chris asked for opinions, and I gave him one, which seemed to strike a nerve with you, prolly cause it hit a little close to home, so you insulted the very idea we could evolve emotionally and mentally past the need, or percieved need, of some outside authority controlling our behavior - which, might I remind you is the entire concept behind taoism, diesm, libertarianism, and anarchism, just for starters.
Then, without one whit of supporting evidence or thought beyond the insult, proceeded to call it "impossible" because it offended YOUR concept of reality, which, lemme be completely fucking blunt - involves clinging to big daddy Governments apron strings and doing all that it tells you cause you're terrified of the great boogeyman of "terrorism" hiding under every rock and behind every corner of america...
Which, in my opinion, is outright insane, so don't expect me to offer any respect for it since you've chosen to offer none for other outlooks yourself, you close-minded barbaric fucking primate gibbering in the dark like an animal.
So I pointed out the very blunt reality of how it could be *begun*, and why it hasn't.
A simple step by step process to begin the empirical research necessary to do it.
Then pointed out the very simple fact that if you put people outside their range and ability to enforce the law or collect taxes, Governments do not like it one bit.
To which your primary and initially only response, was a knee-jerk insult consisting of "Oh, grow the fuck up." followed by a quick edit to add another insult and references to works of fiction - but no facts, or even any evidence whatever beyond your nastiness.
And I let it slide, instead explaining to you WHY that concept was important to me, so you might understand where that position generates from and thus perhaps understand it.
And then, you respond again with insult, cite some inconsistency that I'd lay odds no one else here sees in the reasoning and finally offer your best backed into a corner, sputtering denial by once again clinging to the apron strings of big daddy Government, this from Mister "Free Market" (only meaning Gov-protected monopoly in truth).
Dude, if you found a viable way to get a rock heavy with Gold, Platinum or Uranium down here in the gravity well for processing, you could name your fucking price, and aren't you always the one talking about Capitalism being a calculated gamble via investing a chunk of money into something that's likely to bring in more ?
But sure as shit it didn't even occur to you when someone accidently zapped you in a real sensitive spot, did it now ?
It seems your mask is slipping Geeze, and your true colors are shining through a little bit, might wanna go take a powder and adjust it before your fingers get the better of you and fully reveal what a fearful, nasty little creature you are - guess my One Ring analogy isn't so far from the mark after all is it, cause yer sounding an awful lot like ole Smeagol to me, wants it bad, hasn't got it, so afraid of what he loves and hates.
You wanna talk bullshit, how bout you stifle yours and let people who can act, think and reason like adults discuss a subject you obviously just can't handle (nice try with the topic redirection, but not slick enough) - or you could even man up and actually participate for once instead of sandbagging it like you do every topic which doesn't fit into your neat little worldview of how things should be.
Ever occur to you that it's people like YOU I wanna be far, far away from ?
That it's people like you who in my opinion are diggin my grave right next to
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Boil it down, ya only got three, Fight, Flight and Bend over for The Man.
Given the near futility of the first one, cause first ya gotta fight all the infants who think you wanna murder their daddy... and the repulsiveness of the third, that leaves only one viable option - and go on, find a spot on this planet not claimed by some Government.
And that spot would be?
Sorry, Fremd, but government is like gravity, it's gonna be everywhere, and you can either use it or fight it.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Unfortunately, I think you hit the nail with this one, Frem.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
clinging to big daddy Governments apron strings and doing all that it tells you cause you're terrified of the great boogeyman of "terrorism" hiding under every rock and behind every corner of america...
And 9-11 happened right under 'big daddy's' nose.
Yet some see no need for a major overhaul of government or personal perception.
Amazing.
Blah blah woof woof Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
In helicopter parlance it's called 'ground effects' (that cushion of air that builds up between you and the ground that makes it hard to. land. the. damn. thing.
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Updrafts.
Originally posted by Hero:
And somebody explain to me how a single, highly trained agent can drive anywhere in LA in five minutes or less but his highly trained team of back up agents is always ten minutes away by helicopter.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Geezer, read up on Operation Phoenix and its predecessor Contre Coup. www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html When assassination and torture didn't work, we carpet-bombed, napalmed, and defoliated (and poisoned) en masse. Yeah, we were real good folks.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
BTW when it comes to the supposed 'popularity' of '24' - shows that feature highly emotionally charged situations, that are full of action, and quickly paced (with fast dialogue, physical action and scene-cutting) tend to mesmerize people. It doesn't mean people 'approve', any more than tasering being on YouTube means that people find tasering 'amusing'. There is such a thing as being fascinated watching a train wreck - or the equivalent.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The one thing that doesn't get a whole lot of attention is the idea of 'proportionate'.
So we have certain folks here (you know who you are) who say - didn't sign the ticket ? TASE 'EM! Too loud at a meeting ? TASE HIM ! Not as bad a Zimbabwe ? Well that makes it ALL RIGHT ! Torture bad - bombing GOOD ! J'accuse of being a terrorist ? INDEFINITE DETENTION !
Really. 
What are you thinking ?
***************************************************************
I'm really curious.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You mean that if you watch a train wreck, you're not supporting all the lives that are lost in it?
Originally posted by rue:
There is such a thing as being fascinated watching a train wreck - or the equivalent.
Sarcasm-ingrained Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Then, without one whit of supporting evidence or thought beyond the insult, proceeded to call it "impossible" because it offended YOUR concept of reality, which, lemme be completely fucking blunt - involves clinging to big daddy Governments apron strings and doing all that it tells you cause you're terrified of the great boogeyman of "terrorism" hiding under every rock and behind every corner of america...
If you're talking about viable space travel in time to get you, Fremd, off the planet to a place where you could live on your own resources, which is what you seemed to be describing - I'd stick with impossible.
It doesn't have anything to do with 'big daddy government' or any of your other boogeymen, but just the fact that the technology isn't going to mature quickly enough for that to happen.
We're pretty much at the skin coracle level of spacecraft now, as compared to the caravels we'd need to make it to anywhere anywhere liveable with enough stuff to support us full-time when we got there. After getting there, you still gotta figure out how to live in orbit, or on a planet, moon, or asteroid, without any continuing support from home, so you need an economical and reliable way to provide atmosphere, energy, water, food, and raw materials. This isn't in the cards on a commercial scale for quite a while.
Reasonably self-sufficent colonies in space in your lifetime just isn't doable, because there's so many levels of development that need to occur. Getting far enough away that you won't be involved with earthbound governments is yet another order of magnitude harder, requiring a private ship which could go extra-solar and provide ALL necessities to establish a colony. And if you bring enough folks to avoid the unfavorable results of too small a gene pool, you're gonna end up with some type of government there anyway.
I don't doubt that we will move into space some day, and maybe out of the Solar System, but it's gonna be a while. You and I won't be around to see it.
Until that time, we and our descendents will have to deal with government. Not necessarily 'clinging to apron strings' or 'trembling in fear', but nudging it in the direction we want it to go. Since there's other folks nudging too, we won't get exactly what we want, sometimes not even close.
If you don't think the government will change, there's nowhere for you to run away from them, and you won't bend over, you better start thinking about finding another option.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The one thing that doesn't get a whole lot of attention is the idea of 'proportionate'.
So we have certain folks here (you know who you are) who say - didn't sign the ticket ? TASE 'EM!
So who said that? Most of us here have noted that some use of force, be it tasers or whatever, is inappropriate.
'Proportionate' would start with considering all people, or at least all innocent people, as being equal in worth. So proprtionately, which causes more harm to the innocents; inappropriately tasing them or starving them to death? Both things are bad, but which is worse?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Welcome to today's installment of "Obfuscating for Dollars"!
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I liken it to watching a dog chase his tail.
***************************************************************
It's been a long time since I've seen someone go in so many circles.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I am aware it's unlikely in our lifetimes, but then so was the internet, and here we are talking on it, yes ?
I want at least the process in motion, instead of restricting ourselves to antiquated unsafe pieces of shit good only for installing spy and comm satellites in orbit and of no other use outside the gravity well.
And no, not a station, a SHIP, curse it, Solar Sail and Ion engines especially have shown great promise and we're at a point where an in-space test bed is needed to prove or disprove certain things before further development, so why the hell not apply it for a little jaunt in near-earth space so we can call it one way or the other.
First things first, we need to learn how to DO this stuff, to operate in deep space, physical and psychological effects, vehicle balance and propulsion, safety limits and procedures..
To be somewhat sarcastic about it, basically...
"Drivers Ed for Deep Space".
And I believe in it so strongly that I would voluntarily put my ass on the line, first in line, even knowing how damn risky it would be.
I'd totally fail the physical, I know, but fuck it, I'll sign a damn waiver of responsibility, besides, it's not like imma sue if I fall out an airlock or something... shit, I'd even quit smoking cause no air processor we could build is currently up to handling THAT anyways.
And why do I want it done so badly even knowing that I'll never see that end of it ?
Because when I look into the big blue eyes of my nieces, and within their words hear that same wrenching pain of a soul in torment that I have felt for my entire life, looking at the horror we have built and called a society... I'd really like to have something to offer them besides the fact that they were born, will live, and will die in a world in which their beliefs, their hearts, and compassion have no place, and never will.
And be damned if I wanna hand those two the future of MY failures - I will do *whatever* I must, to not condemn them to my own fate.
Deadly serious, I am about that.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You know a guy with your level of mechanical skills could do well on some south sea islands. The locals use 2 stroke engines on canoes but dont really understand how to maintain them. A man with mechanical knowledge and a semi reasonable toolkit can live a good life. Of course you'd have to barter for your services but pigs and goats are as good a hard currency as you could wish for. Zero government involvement, of course keeping a rifle handy would be a good idea but I think you'd probably enjoy that anyway.
You dont ahve to build a spaceship to get away from the "Man."
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:It's not about worrying you'll sue, it's about the fact that it costs a bloody fortune to put a Human in space. It costs $300,000,000 to put the Space Shuttle in orbit, with a crew of 7. When you're sinking that much money into a project under the supervision of 7 people, you want those 7 to be the very best possible, because if one of them isn't up to the task, you've just wasted a shit load of money.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And I believe in it so strongly that I would voluntarily put my ass on the line, first in line, even knowing how damn risky it would be.
I'd totally fail the physical, I know, but fuck it, I'll sign a damn waiver of responsibility, besides, it's not like imma sue if I fall out an airlock or something... shit, I'd even quit smoking cause no air processor we could build is currently up to handling THAT anyways.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You didn’t strike any nerve. That’s just a narcissistic device you use to justify your delusions. Just like accusing anyone who doesn’t buy your crap, hook, line, and sinker as being facist (sic). I don’t even think you realize how silly you sound half the time. If you’d just think this stuff through before shooting your mouth off, you might not come across so silly.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Wow, looks like I *did* strike a nerve, you puling facist whiner.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Meanwhile... apropos of how "good" we are Quote:
Didn't want Geezer to miss this.
Geezer, read up on Operation Phoenix and its predecessor Contre Coup. www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html When assassination and torture didn't work, we carpet-bombed, napalmed, and defoliated (and poisoned) en masse. Yeah, we were real good folks.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Doesn't seem so silly to me- but then maybe I'm just a silly person.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t even think you realize how silly you sound half the time.
And yes Finn, even you come off silly sometimes (your cold-war ad hominems come right out of Firefox- but that's okay, it's one of my faves
).Tee hee Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
So, I thought I'd go through this in detail.
"Most of us here have noted that some use of force, be it tasers or whatever, is inappropriate."
But for those few 'most' of you, you only apparently object if it's the Chinese or some other (non-US) nation using that force.
Where have I even seen you, or Hero, or Finn, or Rap, or a few select others actually do anything other defend, excuse, minimize or ignore non-proportionate and mis-directed US force ? Iraq for 9/11 - check. Tasers for rudeness - check. Torture for people accused of terrorism - check. Indefinite detention, no habeus corpus - check, check. Warrantless wiretaps - check. This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I went back I'd find a lot more.
Here's an especially delicious concatenated circle you ran in: "or at least all innocent people". Is that innocent until proven guilty ? Innocent unless a cop has a notion to taser you ? Innocent until you're accused ?*
But here is the real piece de resistance "tasing (innocent people) or starving them to death? Both things are bad, but which is worse?" Like the cop is standing there thinking - 'hhmmm, maybe I'll just stand here and let them starve to death. Or, I could tase them here, 'cause that's my choice. Which is worse. eenie meenie ...' At that point your argument is doing a death spiral.
***************************************************************
* Geezer - you're a terrorist ! There. Now you're not innocent anymore.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I call em as I see em Finn, you ain't obligated to share any of my opinions, but remember that works BOTH ways, cause you seem to have trouble with that little bit, oft-times.
And Fletch, I've had that and similar offers concerning southeast asia, the carribean, even canada, specifically toronto - but if I really had to bail, I think I'd aim for new zealand by preference, or finland.. problem is no gift for learning languages, been studyin spanish for almost a decade and can still barely manage fifty words or so in it...
Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Well said Frem.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.
Errr...I mean, GO LIVE IN CHINA WITH YOUR COMRADES, YOU COMMIE RAT BASTID!!!
Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.
Ever think of doing something to reduce or turn aside the wave or madness, other than just whining about it?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
What makes you think I don't ?
When not here or at work, I spend a good bit of time on it, although what I am mostly good at is sandbagging and exposing some pretty awful stuff to law enforcement, which as I said, does have it's uses, and I am active in local politics as well as having been up Conyers ass ever since meeting him at a rally for Howard Dean, before Dean bent over for the DNC/DLC... not to mention leaning on, and getting other folk to lean on, Dingell - Levin is a waste of time, bought and paid for by AIPAC, but Conyers is a key player especially given his position within House Judiciary, what with that resolution somehow not having been tabled and all...
I might not have money, but I do have the ability to get a lot of their constituents riled up at em very very quickly, and damned good intel on every dirty deed their competitors (and themselves) have ever done, just a matter of getting the arm applied without stickin my neck out for someone elses axe.
It's a nasty business, politics, and I don't care for it at all, but it's still better than a firefight, innit ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:Wow Geezer, you got a bug up your but last couple of days or what?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Ever think of doing something to reduce or turn aside the wave or madness, other than just whining about it?
Go back and re-read your posts and tell me who's whining here.
In the words of John Connor: "We need to be a little more positive here!"
I'll be back Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Boil it down, ya only got three, Fight, Flight and Bend over for The Man.
.....that leaves only one viable option - and go on, find a spot on this planet not claimed by some Government.
And that spot would be?
.....
Sometime before the USSR folded there was a NOVA special where some geologists went to Siberia to look study a potential meteorite impact. While filming they stayed at a cabin with their Soviet hosts. The cabin had a pool heated by a geothermal spring, after a day in the field they kicked back in the pool and drank beer. As the sun was setting one of the Soviets said, right now this is the freest place on earth.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Meanwhile... apropos of how "good" we areQuote:Didn't want Geezer to miss this.
Geezer, read up on Operation Phoenix and its predecessor Contre Coup. www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html When assassination and torture didn't work, we carpet-bombed, napalmed, and defoliated (and poisoned) en masse. Yeah, we were real good folks.
Well, I had to do a little checking to get more than the one-sided view on the site you posted so it took a while.
Summing up several sources, Operation Phoenix was designed to remove Viet Cong infrastructure support. People who provided supplies, food, communication, and indoctrination services for the VC fighters. Of the 80,000+ engaged by the CIA, ARVN, and US troops, about 25,000 were killed and the rest captured. Seeing as how support troops and formations are considered legitimate targets of war under most conventions, seems like a pretty valid tactic.
Carpet bombing, called ArcLight, always had to be cleared to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. I saw that process firsthand too.
Napalm is a tactical weapon, generally used against folk who are already shooting at you.
Agent Orange was a mistake on several levels.
And an observation.
I just love how you absolutely revel in tracking down the worst things you can possibly find about America and bringing them to RWED, like a dog bringing a dead rat to the doorstep, looking for praise and affirmation from your buddies. How many hours a day do you spend roaming the odd corners of the internet for some little tidbit to share?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Sometime before the USSR folded there was a NOVA special where some geologists went to Siberia to look study a potential meteorite impact. While filming they stayed at a cabin with their Soviet hosts. The cabin had a pool heated by a geothermal spring, after a day in the field they kicked back in the pool and drank beer. As the sun was setting one of the Soviets said, right now this is the freest place on earth.
Actually, you can be free wherever you are. Freedom is in your head, not your surroundings. Too many folk here think that their freedom depends on what some government does, thus giving up the power to choose to be free.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:So despite all the "care" we took and the fact that we had no apparent reason to even BE in Vietnam, we managed to kill 2.5-5 million Vietnamese. Well, I guess that's something.
I just love how you absolutely revel in tracking down the worst things you can possibly find about America and bringing them to RWED, like a dog bringing a dead rat to the doorstep, looking for praise and affirmation from your buddies. How many hours a day do you spend roaming the odd corners of the internet for some little tidbit to share?
The reason why I bring these nasty bits to the forum - as I've said before- is because most people mainly hear the "good stuff". They don't realize, or don't believe, or can't feel anything about the fact that we HAVE managed to kill millions- literally- of people around the world in the last six decades or so (not counting WWII or the Korean War).
And why do I do that? Well, why do WE do that?
What I HOPE to do is wake people up to fact that there are people in government- people like Cheney and Hillary - who are thoroughly cynical, and only use words like "freedom" or "democracy" or "communism" or "terrorism" to manipulate. That they will shovel us into the maw of "profit health care"... or war... for nothing more than a few extra bucks.
People need to wake up, Geezer, and start thinking for themselves about their interests, and whether the path our fearless leaders have chosen is the one that will really get us where most of us want to go: A decent job, nice neighborhood, good education, security for the future, and freedom.
We CAN get there, but not by the path that's been laid out before us~!
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME