At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 18:06
VIEWED: 6644
PAGE 4 of 12
Quote:This was started as a domestically-oriented thread, sparked (if you'll excuse the pun) by a vid I saw of a police officer tasing a guy he pulled over for not listening closely enough.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Tell me true, when you started this thread, who were you thinking of as being the human rights violater?
Once again- I only have a say (and a teenie-tiny one at that) over stuff that happens in the country I am a citizen of, okay? So I'm always gonna start RIGHT HERE.
You think somewhere in Zimbabwe there's a guy right now flaming his fellow citizen for concentrating on problems in ZIMBABWE, and not ever discussing the taser abuse in the U.S.?????
So there Chrisisall
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Quote:I don't get your point. I'm willing to agree that these governments abuse human rights. I 'think' the point here is that many of us are in the US and we wish our country to be an 'example of that which is good'. Is that somehow a 'flawed' concept?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
Never a mention of the political repression or prisoners held by Castro's regime in Cuba, for example, but a new Gitmo/waterboarding reference every time you turn around.
People blown up in a pet market in Iraq by Shi'a militias? Not a peep. But show a fragment of a taser video and it's the end of the world.
Couldn't even get up a good sweat over the political repression in Myanmar.
Putin is about to railroad the elections in Russia without comment, but we'll hear over and over how Bush 'cheated' in 2000 and 2004.
Get the point? If you really want to complain about human rights abuses, complain about all of them. Don't pick and choose depending on your prejudices. Evaluate them all fairly based on their degree of seriousness.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:Quote:I don't get your point. I'm willing to agree that these governments abuse human rights. I 'think' the point here is that many of us are in the US and we wish our country to be an 'example of that which is good'. Is that somehow a 'flawed' concept?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Show me where most anyone here HAS started a thread calling the Chinese, or the Sudanese, or the North Koreans on their human rights abuses.
Not a flawed concept, but I don't get that vibe from a lot of folks here. They seem to be saying, as has been noted before, that the US is one of the worst (if not THE worst) human rights abusers, and one step away from replacing the Nazis and Stalin-era Russia as the most evil.
I don't buy that, and think that if all countries were evaluated fairly, with no agenda, the US would be a pretty good example of what is good. I agree that there are things to fix, but if given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Well, it's kinda expected of a dictatorship, and can be usually taken as read that people don't agree with such things. However when it's the enlightened leader of the western world, it has somewhat more of an impact. The question can be asked, how can the western world condemn human rights abuses, while doing the same thing? Do as we say, not as we do?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
When we're condemning human rights abuses, and doing the same ourselves, kinda loses the impact, ya know.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:Because people on the board are well-aware that North Korea, Russia and other nations on our "enemies list" violate human rights, and the media faithfully reflects those views.
Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?
But the press tends to be rather quiet about our allies' violations. For example, Pakistan (our ally du jour) did more to spread nuclear technology throughout the Arab world than any of our so-called enemies. Saudi Arabia has been a repressive regime for decades. Saddam Hussein was our ally at the same time he was dumping chemical weapons on the Kurds. The "freedom fighter" mujahideen were lunatic islamists.
Just providing balance.
Quote:Eh, but that's NOT the choice. If modern Europe is any example of how things work, nations that mind human rights within their own borders ar also better at supporting human rights abroad. So your choice is not only a false dilemma, it may even be 100% backwards.
if given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
When we're condemning human rights abuses, and doing the same ourselves, kinda loses the impact, ya know.
If we were doing the same things, with even close to the same frequency, this might be a valid point.
Please show me all the millions in the US who've been forced into refugee camps by their own government; to be bombed from aircraft, raped and murdered by militias, and have all these actions denied by their government in the face of overwhelming evidence. Happens in Sudan, not here.
Tell me about diversion of donated food from the starving population to maintain an American army thats 20% of the population. No, that would be North Korea.
How about the 8000% inflation and confiscated properties going to the American President's cronies. Zimbabwe.
If that stuff were happening here, I'd be at the barricades. It's not. Not even close. So instead I'll be at the polls.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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How about the 10 million people that we either killed directly or abetted in their murder (thru aid, arms, intel, field support, training, and political cover)? Starting with 2.5 to 5 million Vietnamese.
Also, I'm going to repeat my point about nations that have good human rights records at home having better human rights records abroad. The reason being that human rights "at home" is what nations do when nobody is looking very closely. (Since it takes an egregious act to make the world community sit up and take notice.)
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Always look upstream.
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Right on Geezer,
Same people decrying human rights abuses in the US are perfectly willing to have the US stand by waiting for a UN vote while thousands die. Then if the US does something unilaterally to help people we're imperialist bastards.
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But the press tends to be rather quiet about our allies' violations.
Bull. Unless you've just been watching Fox News(I guess. Never watch it, myself). Stuff about lack of human rights in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. is all over the print, broadcast, and internet media.
Quote:
Geezer - given the choice between stopping the tasering of a few American drunks and the starvation of a few hundred thousand North Korean peasants, I think I'd let the drunks twitch and the peasants eat.
SignyM - Eh, but that's NOT the choice. If modern Europe is any example of how things work, nations that mind human rights within their own borders ar also better at supporting human rights abroad.
Freedom of speech - Try denying the Holacaust in Germany or several other European countries.
Freedom of religion - Try wearing your Sikh turban to a French school.
Freedom of the press - Try to print a leaked document in England, and get charged under the Official Secrets Act.
Ask the folk in the Muslim ghettoes in France about police violence and racism.
What about the neo-fascist movements in Germany and Italy?
I could go on, but you (should) get the point. Europe ain't that pure when it comes to rights abuses.
Quote:
So your choice is not only a false dilemma, it may even be 100% backwards.
Ah, false dilemma, the new ad hominem.
Seems a perfectly valid question about how you would allocate resources.
If you had the resources (and resources actually are limited, you know) to:
a) either prevent a few thousand drunks and rowdies from being tased,
b)or feed a few hundred thousand starving North Koreans,
but not both, which would you do?
Keep in mind that although in the US, some drunks and rowdies are inappropriately tased, we're already feeding the North Koreans.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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