At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations?

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 18:06
VIEWED: 6644
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GEEZER

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh you're completely welcome to cling in fear to big daddy Govs leg screaming about how it's scary outside, if you like...

Not all of us are so afflicted.

FIRST, design a ship that doesn't NEED to take off and land in a damn gravity well, as a start.

THEN use those piece of shit shuttles to carry the parts to the L5 point and put em together.

THEN start actively experimenting in a nearby, known environment with deep space operation, and learn how to DO it.

But as mentioned elsewhere, the LAST thing any earthly Government wants is it's slaves out of it's effective reach and threat...

Oh, grow the fuck up.

Edited to add:

Dumbass. Wait til the government builds a starship and then hijack it. See RAH's Metheuselah's Children.

Re-edited to add:

...or Jefferson Airplane's Blows Against The Empire{/u].

"Keep the Shiny side up"

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Three, if an innocent person is abused in any fashion that is a tragedy. However it is not the end of the world.

Better a 1,000 innocient men be imprisoned for life than one "bad guy" go free.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I note for the record that Jack Bauer who tortures, murders, and drives without a seat belt...is an EXTREMELY popular character suggesting that the majority of people approve of such actions under the right circumstances (like right before a commercial break).

The right circumstances, in this instance, being propoganda under the guise of an mega-action thrill-ride that is written, performed, and directed so well, that it has no problem keeping millions of American's eyes glued to the tube for an hour every week.

Way to distinguish reality from fantasy. I've seen Vanilla Ice music videos that keep it more "real" than 24. Not suggesting that it's not entertaining though.

Anybody old enough to have stopped believing in the Tooth Fairy should be old enough to know that real life is nothing like 24, and whether it be only for advertizing revenue, or much more nefarious purposes such as propoganda and subversive indoctrination, anybody who allows a TV show to control the way they think about the world or the people living it are being played like violins.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
6SJ,

Don't smoke myself, not counting my twice yearly cigar. But I feel for you and all my friends at the neighborhood bar that have to keep walking outside to have a smoke.

You're a good man Vet....

I have a feeling that a lot more people look at it the way you and my brother do than the media would ever admit to. Watch too much of that idiot box and you'll start believing that everyone in the world wants to give up all of their rights and let the government micromanage their entire lives so they can feel safe and warm.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 3:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
But when other governments worldwide starve, murder, rape, beat, imprison, relocate, and otherwise deprive large portions of their populations of human rights, not so much, eh?
Geezer, I wonder: Are you being a dick on purpose or can't you help yourself? You toss off this stuff as if it's somehow meaningful, but all you're doing- as usual- is putting words in someone else's mouth.

Just trying, once again, to make a point, and subtlety hasn't worked too well. Human rights violations occur all over the place, but unless the US can be blamed somehow, they never get discussed here. Why is that, do you think?

Never a mention of the political repression or prisoners held by Castro's regime in Cuba, for example, but a new Gitmo/waterboarding reference every time you turn around.

People blown up in a pet market in Iraq by Shi'a militias? Not a peep. But show a fragment of a taser video and it's the end of the world.

Couldn't even get up a good sweat over the political repression in Myanmar.

Putin is about to railroad the elections in Russia without comment, but we'll hear over and over how Bush 'cheated' in 2000 and 2004.

Get the point? If you really want to complain about human rights abuses, complain about all of them. Don't pick and choose depending on your prejudices. Evaluate them all fairly based on their degree of seriousness.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Quite honestly Geezer, I couldn't give a shit less about what happens in other countries. If we weren't so busy meddling everywhere else in the world, we could have locked down our borders and made immigration very hard legally and damn near impossible otherwise. (Eliminating any threat of someone with "evil" intentions from outside coming in, thus bringing us back to a "cold war" state at the absolute worst, should Putin's ascendance of power or China's strenghtening economy become a imminent threat).

But where do you get off talking to me about shit in Russia when we've got the enemy living here stateside? Just how many of those illegals who came up from Mexico do you suppose might be terrorists just waiting for the go signal to start firebombing churches, schools and malls?

(And before you say anything silly, I don't mean Mexican terrorists..... because the only nationality that comes up by the millions every year from the south are Mexican's right?)

And no, the Real ID is not the answer.

Let's fix our own shit and then we'll worry about the rest of the world. I don't see how the hell we get off telling the world how to live their lives and run their countries when we are the epitome of decadence and self-indulgant behavior and hypocracy in the world.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 5:23 AM

Quote:
Besides, I know firsthand how the VC fought. Torture and terror were their stock in trade. Remember the My Lia massacre and the outrage at that? the VC did that, and worse, on a daily basis. I spent a year there receiving front-line reports, straight from the field, like, "VC entered village of X. Killed village chief and family. Killed school teacher and family. Kidnapped 4 teenage boys. Stole all rice." every day. Don't talk to me about the VC.

And I know too. I'm not a dumbass who talks about the "heroic" VC. So what? WE were there. Doing very much the same. And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 9:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Freedom of speech - Try denying the Holacaust in Germany or several other European countries.
Freedom of religion - Try wearing your Sikh turban to a French school.
Freedom of the press - Try to print a leaked document in England, and get charged under the Official Secrets Act.
Ask the folk in the Muslim ghettoes in France about police violence and racism.
What about the neo-fascist movements in Germany and Italy?

Weren't you just telling me about degrees earlier? Does any of this really compare to 'extraordinary rendition'? There’s neo-fascist movements in America as well, and the official secrets act has been tested in court, and it doesn't hold up for cases of whistle blowing. Frankly if a tabloid was to get hold of top secret information that put service people at risk, and printed it, I have no problem with them and whoever leaked it being nailed to the wall.

A situation, I note that is also provided for under US law. I also note, that on the whole the British press can be found to attack the British government far more thoroughly than I tend to see from most other countries, despite the apparent complete lack of 'freedom of the press' over here.

You did rather sidestep the point though. If you're happy with the US or other western nations "not being as bad as Zimbabwe" then more power to you. Personally I don't use "better than a tin pot dictatorship" as my yard stick.

Someone can be realistic and still decry Human Rights abuses where ever they come from. Before I mention the words "the leader of the free world shouldn't be locking people up and throwing away the key", I have to condemn every tin pot dictator? Are Americas Gulags ok, because they only intern a few hundred people, while China’s intern thousands?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

JUDITH

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:47 PM

Don't look now, you young folk, but this country is in worse shape than during the McCarthy commie witch hunts.

You already live in a fascist state - the fascists just haven't moved to total enforcement, yet.

Keep your weapons and clothes where you can find them in the dark!

GEEZER

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WE were there. Doing very much the same.

Once again, Bull.

I was there. I received the reports every day, and then talked to the guys who sent them.

Here's what "village chief and family murdered" really meant.

If they were lucky, the VC did just murder them quickly. If the VC commander was more of an ideologue or more creative, they'd tie the chief to a post and disembowel him, making sure he stayed alive. Then they'd torture and kill his sons in front of him, then rape, torture and kill his wife and daughters. A couple of the commanders with a flair for the dramatic might then behead the chief's family and mount their heads on stakes where the chief couldn't avoid seeing them. The VC would then threaten to kill any villager who tried to help, or even move, the chief, steal all the food, kidnap all the young men, and leave.

No. We weren't 'doing very much the same'.

Edited to add:
"And I suspect that if we hadn't been there neither would the Russians or Chinese. (Like al Qaida in Iraq.)"

The Soviet Union and Chinese were providing direct military aid to the Viet Minh starting in the early 1950's. Try checking your facts for a change.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, November 27, 2007 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Weren't you just telling me about degrees earlier? Does any of this really compare to 'extraordinary rendition'? There’s neo-fascist movements in America as well, and the official secrets act has been tested in court, and it doesn't hold up for cases of whistle blowing. Frankly if a tabloid was to get hold of top secret information that put service people at risk, and printed it, I have no problem with them and whoever leaked it being nailed to the wall.

A situation, I note that is also provided for under US law. I also note, that on the whole the British press can be found to attack the British government far more thoroughly than I tend to see from most other countries, despite the apparent complete lack of 'freedom of the press' over here.

You did rather sidestep the point though. If you're happy with the US or other western nations "not being as bad as Zimbabwe" then more power to you. Personally I don't use "better than a tin pot dictatorship" as my yard stick.

Someone can be realistic and still decry Human Rights abuses where ever they come from. Before I mention the words "the leader of the free world shouldn't be locking people up and throwing away the key", I have to condemn every tin pot dictator? Are Americas Gulags ok, because they only intern a few hundred people, while China’s intern thousands?

WTF?

Me an Cit finally found an issue that we agree on probably about 80% at least if we were to sit down and have a long talk about it.

I'ma have a beer and celebrate.

One point I'd like to make though..... I think our press does one hell of a job bashing our Government, but only one side of it. The Rethuglican side. Today they very rarely ever pick on the "ideals" or the spoken word of Demonocracy.

As you're probably well aware by now, I fear one side just as much as I do the other. Why do you suppose that even a lot of Democrats are supporting Ron Paul?

I believe that it is because most "moderates" on either side are likely Libertarians, but they don't even know it because we're a Government of black and white... Neo Conservative or Commie Liberal.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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