At precisely what point should we be alarmed at human rights violations?
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 18:06
VIEWED: 6644
PAGE 10 of 12
So, I thought I'd go through this in detail.
"Most of us here have noted that some use of force, be it tasers or whatever, is inappropriate."
But for those few 'most' of you, you only apparently object if it's the Chinese or some other (non-US) nation using that force. 
Where have I even seen you, or Hero, or Finn, or Rap, or a few select others actually do anything other defend, excuse, minimize or ignore non-proportionate and mis-directed US force ? Iraq for 9/11 - check. Tasers for rudeness - check. Torture for people accused of terrorism - check. Indefinite detention, no habeus corpus - check, check. Warrantless wiretaps - check. This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure if I went back I'd find a lot more.
Here's an especially delicious concatenated circle you ran in: "or at least all innocent people". Is that innocent until proven guilty ? Innocent unless a cop has a notion to taser you ? Innocent until you're accused ?*
But here is the real piece de resistance "tasing (innocent people) or starving them to death? Both things are bad, but which is worse?" Like the cop is standing there thinking - 'hhmmm, maybe I'll just stand here and let them starve to death. Or, I could tase them here, 'cause that's my choice. Which is worse. eenie meenie ...' At that point your argument is doing a death spiral.
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* Geezer - you're a terrorist ! There. Now you're not innocent anymore.
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I call em as I see em Finn, you ain't obligated to share any of my opinions, but remember that works BOTH ways, cause you seem to have trouble with that little bit, oft-times.
And Fletch, I've had that and similar offers concerning southeast asia, the carribean, even canada, specifically toronto - but if I really had to bail, I think I'd aim for new zealand by preference, or finland.. problem is no gift for learning languages, been studyin spanish for almost a decade and can still barely manage fifty words or so in it...
Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:Well said Frem.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.
Errr...I mean, GO LIVE IN CHINA WITH YOUR COMRADES, YOU COMMIE RAT BASTID!!!
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Besides, I love the IDEA of america, what it supposedly stands for, and if everyone just gives up and leaves, there's zero chance of ever seeing that dream become a reality - whether or not I care for what it is at this current time, this nation still has the most potential FOR that, provided this tidal wave of madness peters out or is turned aside.
Ever think of doing something to reduce or turn aside the wave or madness, other than just whining about it?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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What makes you think I don't ?
When not here or at work, I spend a good bit of time on it, although what I am mostly good at is sandbagging and exposing some pretty awful stuff to law enforcement, which as I said, does have it's uses, and I am active in local politics as well as having been up Conyers ass ever since meeting him at a rally for Howard Dean, before Dean bent over for the DNC/DLC... not to mention leaning on, and getting other folk to lean on, Dingell - Levin is a waste of time, bought and paid for by AIPAC, but Conyers is a key player especially given his position within House Judiciary, what with that resolution somehow not having been tabled and all...
I might not have money, but I do have the ability to get a lot of their constituents riled up at em very very quickly, and damned good intel on every dirty deed their competitors (and themselves) have ever done, just a matter of getting the arm applied without stickin my neck out for someone elses axe.
It's a nasty business, politics, and I don't care for it at all, but it's still better than a firefight, innit ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:Wow Geezer, you got a bug up your but last couple of days or what?
Originally posted by Geezer:
Ever think of doing something to reduce or turn aside the wave or madness, other than just whining about it?
Go back and re-read your posts and tell me who's whining here.
In the words of John Connor: "We need to be a little more positive here!"
I'll be back Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Boil it down, ya only got three, Fight, Flight and Bend over for The Man.
.....that leaves only one viable option - and go on, find a spot on this planet not claimed by some Government.
And that spot would be?
.....
Sometime before the USSR folded there was a NOVA special where some geologists went to Siberia to look study a potential meteorite impact. While filming they stayed at a cabin with their Soviet hosts. The cabin had a pool heated by a geothermal spring, after a day in the field they kicked back in the pool and drank beer. As the sun was setting one of the Soviets said, right now this is the freest place on earth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Meanwhile... apropos of how "good" we areQuote:Didn't want Geezer to miss this.
Geezer, read up on Operation Phoenix and its predecessor Contre Coup. www.counterpunch.org/valentine.html When assassination and torture didn't work, we carpet-bombed, napalmed, and defoliated (and poisoned) en masse. Yeah, we were real good folks.
Well, I had to do a little checking to get more than the one-sided view on the site you posted so it took a while.
Summing up several sources, Operation Phoenix was designed to remove Viet Cong infrastructure support. People who provided supplies, food, communication, and indoctrination services for the VC fighters. Of the 80,000+ engaged by the CIA, ARVN, and US troops, about 25,000 were killed and the rest captured. Seeing as how support troops and formations are considered legitimate targets of war under most conventions, seems like a pretty valid tactic.
Carpet bombing, called ArcLight, always had to be cleared to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. I saw that process firsthand too.
Napalm is a tactical weapon, generally used against folk who are already shooting at you.
Agent Orange was a mistake on several levels.
And an observation.
I just love how you absolutely revel in tracking down the worst things you can possibly find about America and bringing them to RWED, like a dog bringing a dead rat to the doorstep, looking for praise and affirmation from your buddies. How many hours a day do you spend roaming the odd corners of the internet for some little tidbit to share?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Sometime before the USSR folded there was a NOVA special where some geologists went to Siberia to look study a potential meteorite impact. While filming they stayed at a cabin with their Soviet hosts. The cabin had a pool heated by a geothermal spring, after a day in the field they kicked back in the pool and drank beer. As the sun was setting one of the Soviets said, right now this is the freest place on earth.
Actually, you can be free wherever you are. Freedom is in your head, not your surroundings. Too many folk here think that their freedom depends on what some government does, thus giving up the power to choose to be free.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:So despite all the "care" we took and the fact that we had no apparent reason to even BE in Vietnam, we managed to kill 2.5-5 million Vietnamese. Well, I guess that's something.
I just love how you absolutely revel in tracking down the worst things you can possibly find about America and bringing them to RWED, like a dog bringing a dead rat to the doorstep, looking for praise and affirmation from your buddies. How many hours a day do you spend roaming the odd corners of the internet for some little tidbit to share?
The reason why I bring these nasty bits to the forum - as I've said before- is because most people mainly hear the "good stuff". They don't realize, or don't believe, or can't feel anything about the fact that we HAVE managed to kill millions- literally- of people around the world in the last six decades or so (not counting WWII or the Korean War).
And why do I do that? Well, why do WE do that?
What I HOPE to do is wake people up to fact that there are people in government- people like Cheney and Hillary - who are thoroughly cynical, and only use words like "freedom" or "democracy" or "communism" or "terrorism" to manipulate. That they will shovel us into the maw of "profit health care"... or war... for nothing more than a few extra bucks.
People need to wake up, Geezer, and start thinking for themselves about their interests, and whether the path our fearless leaders have chosen is the one that will really get us where most of us want to go: A decent job, nice neighborhood, good education, security for the future, and freedom.
We CAN get there, but not by the path that's been laid out before us~!
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Always look upstream.
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