BOOM!
POSTED BY: whozit
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 14:44
VIEWED: 4728
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Is it me, or is the world getting more scary since Barry took office? Barry is a "Photo-Op" Prez, no one is afraid of him..... Except the banks and car companys 
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98D25Q80&show-article=1
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521617,00.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Is it me, or is the world getting more scary since Barry took office? Barry is a "Photo-Op" Prez, no one is afraid of him..... Except the banks and car companys
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98D25Q80&show-article=1
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521617,00.html
Wait - it's MORE scary now that N. Korea claims to have exploded a nuclear weapon, which they also claimed to have done under the previous administration? How is the knowledge that they now still have what we knew they had years ago making things MORE scary?
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Is it me, or
Right the first time-- it's you...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Wait - it's MORE scary now that N. Korea claims to have exploded a nuclear weapon, which they also claimed to have done under the previous administration? How is the knowledge that they now still have what we knew they had years ago making things MORE scary?
The one tested during the Bush Administration was pretty much a dud, and didn't produce much energy. The latest was estimated through seismic readings at 20 kilotons, about the same as the Hiroshima bomb.
Although the Russians and Chinese are still calling for talks with North Korea, they may be getting a little nervious about such a wild-card state.
BBC has a good article on the international response.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8066861.stm
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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So, is setting off nuclear bombs in defiance of international law and UN resolutions more like taking your pistol to the shooting range to see how well it works, or more like bandishing it in the middle of a crowded shopping mall yelling "You lookin' at me?"
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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OK, wait - I'm not clear about this...
Are we following UN resolutions these days, or not? It's so hard to keep track. One day we're railing AGAINST the UN, calling for it to be abolished - or at the very least, for the U.S. to get out of it - and the next we're saying that every other nation (the operative word being "other") should do as the UN says.
Seems we should either let the UN run things, or we shouldn't bitch about it when those OTHER nations decide THEY don't want the UN telling them how to live, either.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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In other words, you won't answer the question.
It should come to no surprise that no one will care about the UN Resolutions, since obviously no one cared about them in 2003. It took two nations acting pretty much independently to do enforce resolutions that the UN should have been enforcing, because no one else cared. North Korea knows this.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
One day we're railing AGAINST the UN, calling for it to be abolished - or at the very least, for the U.S. to get out of it - and the next we're saying that every other nation (the operative word being "other") should do as the UN says.
As Tonto once said, "What you mean WE, white man?"
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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I bet the N Korea midgit's not on the No Fly No Buy List.
After all, Cheney sold him the nukes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
In other words, you won't answer the question.
It should come to no surprise that no one will care about the UN Resolutions, since obviously no one cared about them in 2003. It took two nations acting pretty much independently to do enforce resolutions that the UN should have been enforcing, because no one else cared. North Korea knows this.
In other words, you won't answer the question either.
Or is that your answer? That UN Resolutions are useless because no one else cares? If so, why bitch about North Korea flipping the bird at the UN?
Oh, and I thought we were all about that whole "coalition of the willing" bullshit. Are you now saying that that was a sham? You state that two nations "independently" did it, because no one else cared. Have you forgotten Poland? You forgot Poland!
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
One day we're railing AGAINST the UN, calling for it to be abolished - or at the very least, for the U.S. to get out of it - and the next we're saying that every other nation (the operative word being "other") should do as the UN says.
As Tonto once said, "What you mean WE, white man?"
"Keep the Shiny side up"
"We" as in "us". As in "U.S."
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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We threatened them, blatantly and with malice aforethought, and very publicly.
They pull out a really huge gun and show us it's loaded.
And then we have the NERVE to whine ?
Please.
-F
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Quote:I’ve answer this question many times. It should be obvious at this point that I consider North Koreas nuclear program to be a serious threat.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
In other words, you won't answer the question either.
Quote:The coalition was organization by the US and UK. It’s very obvious that a majority support existed for the UN to deal with Iraq, but due to a handful of nations acting to sustain oil contracts with the regime in Iraq, it didn’t happen. This also has been explained in great detail.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Oh, and I thought we were all about that whole "coalition of the willing" bullshit. Are you now saying that that was a sham? You state that two nations "independently" did it, because no one else cared. Have you forgotten Poland? You forgot Poland!
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
We threatened them, blatantly and with malice aforethought, and very publicly.
They pull out a really huge gun and show us it's loaded.
And then we have the NERVE to whine ?
Please.
-F
Total Agreement
Mind you I am more comfortable with the idea of Iran having nukes than North Korea...
But hey, that day will come too
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
We threatened them, blatantly and with malice aforethought, and very publicly.
They pull out a really huge gun and show us it's loaded.
And then we have the NERVE to whine ?
Please.
-F
And of course they've never made an aggressive move, aside from invading South Korea, kidnapping its citizens, sending sabotage teams across and around the border on a regular basis, preventing families from knowing if their relatives are dead or alive, etc.
North Korea is the crazy neighbor who gets drunk, goes out in the back yard, and starts firing his really huge gun wildly. Kim Jung Il and his pappy have run their economy so far into the ground that their people are starving in droves, even with massive U.S. and South Korean aid, and the government there has nothing to lose by using a nuke for no reason at all.
Do you let the other guy take the first shot?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
North Korea is the crazy neighbor who gets drunk, goes out in the back yard, and starts firing his really huge gun wildly. Kim Jung Il and his pappy have run their economy so far into the ground that their people are starving in droves, even with massive U.S. and South Korean aid, and the government there has nothing to lose by using a nuke for no reason at all.
Of course, there are those who'd argue that the U.S.A. is the crazy neighbor who gets drunk, goes out in the back yard, and start firing his really huge gun wildly. George W. Bush and his pappy have run their economy so far into the ground that their people are losing their jobs and homes in droves, even with massive banking bailouts, and the government there has nothing to lose by using a nuke for no reason at all.
I'm just sayin'.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
And of course they've never made an aggressive move, aside from invading South Korea, kidnapping its citizens, sending sabotage teams across and around the border on a regular basis, preventing families from knowing if their relatives are dead or alive, etc.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Sounds like American foreign policy,
or do you think the same of some of your country's actions in Central and South America, in particular
America only seems to think international laws and sanctions should apply against others,
Perhaps you would have more respect, if you didn't ignore the same laws, and the judgments against you when you break them. Until that day, you are also a rouge nation, and should be treated as such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Until that day, you are also a rouge nation, and should be treated as such.
Well, other than maybe San Francisco, I doubt we'd qualify as a rouge nation, or maybe you were thinking France ?
Rogue nation though, that one I'll give ya.
And if you wanna go stupid analogies, in this case America is the nutty militia guy with the HUGE arsenal in his basement whining about some guy way down the block daring to own a .38SPL revolver.
As far as M-A-D and other idiocy goes, the only country with enough maturity and balls to cast aside it's nuclear arsenal and be done with the whole bone brained idiocy... is Canada.
Of course, being a Michigander, I am very well acquainted with the fact that as a people and country, they're both more mature and well behaved than we are.
But less inventive - us americans, we can BUILD some shit, when we try, and we're the best farmers on the planet - maybe if we spent those talents on life instead of death, building solutions instead of weapons, we'd undercut many of the true causes underneath all this violence.
But of course, that requires a social, mental and emotional maturity we neither have, nor are likely to develop with a society wholly built around it's prevention.
At it's end, this is STILL "have bigger club, take your stuff!" - just on a national, rather than personal scale, and we can do better, we OUGHT to do better.
But try telling the cave trolls this...
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
But less inventive - us americans, we can BUILD some shit, when we try, and we're the best farmers on the planet - maybe if we spent those talents on life instead of death, building solutions instead of weapons, we'd undercut many of the true causes underneath all this violence.
But of course, that requires a social, mental and emotional maturity we neither have, nor are likely to develop with a society wholly built around it's prevention.
At it's end, this is STILL "have bigger club, take your stuff!" - just on a national, rather than personal scale, and we can do better, we OUGHT to do better.
And the sad fact is, no matter what we invent, no matter how far our technology takes us, there's always that wanker at the Pentagon whose very first question will be, "How can we weaponize this?"
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
Until that day, you are also a rouge nation, and should be treated as such.
Well, other than maybe San Francisco, I doubt we'd qualify as a rouge nation, or maybe you were thinking France ?
Rogue nation though, that one I'll give ya.
And if you wanna go stupid analogies, in this case America is the nutty militia guy with the HUGE arsenal in his basement whining about some guy way down the block daring to own a .38SPL revolver.
As far as M-A-D and other idiocy goes, the only country with enough maturity and balls to cast aside it's nuclear arsenal and be done with the whole bone brained idiocy... is Canada.
Of course, being a Michigander, I am very well acquainted with the fact that as a people and country, they're both more mature and well behaved than we are.
But less inventive - us americans, we can BUILD some shit, when we try, and we're the best farmers on the planet - maybe if we spent those talents on life instead of death, building solutions instead of weapons, we'd undercut many of the true causes underneath all this violence.
But of course, that requires a social, mental and emotional maturity we neither have, nor are likely to develop with a society wholly built around it's prevention.
At it's end, this is STILL "have bigger club, take your stuff!" - just on a national, rather than personal scale, and we can do better, we OUGHT to do better.
But try telling the cave trolls this...
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
lol got me there....
but funny enough I won't go back to correct it.
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
But less inventive - us americans, we can BUILD some shit, when we try, and we're the best farmers on the planet - maybe if we spent those talents on life instead of death, building solutions instead of weapons, we'd undercut many of the true causes underneath all this violence.
But of course, that requires a social, mental and emotional maturity we neither have, nor are likely to develop with a society wholly built around it's prevention.
At it's end, this is STILL "have bigger club, take your stuff!" - just on a national, rather than personal scale, and we can do better, we OUGHT to do better.
And the sad fact is, no matter what we invent, no matter how far our technology takes us, there's always that wanker at the Pentagon whose very first question will be, "How can we weaponize this?"
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I don't have a problem with the technology or even the weaponization, so much as I do with the employment and application of such things once they are deployed.
Nuke or a club to the back of the head. your just as dead...
but if one can do away with the impulse to swing the club.....
it is there we could all use some advancement.
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Problem with that, Gino - is our entire society is centered around preventing folks from developing that kind of impulse control cause it makes for poor consumers, poor soldiers, and reduces the possibility they might listen to and even believe the ridiculous bullshit spouted by the powers that be in order to keep control.
I work against that society, in every way I can, cause every person who asks themselves "Exactly WHY am I listening to these shitheads ?" is one more victory for humanity, and another step forward in evolving the ways we need to in order to survive and prosper.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Sounds like American foreign policy...
Could be. Does that make a nuclear-armed North Korea any less dangerous? They have less ability to project diplomatic or economic pressure, so they're more likely than the U.S. to go directly to intimidation and blunt force. They've used both before(Before you bust a gut, yes, so has the U.S., but that's really not the issue here). They don't care if large portions of their population die, since they've been starving them to death for years.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And if you wanna go stupid analogies, in this case America is the nutty militia guy with the HUGE arsenal in his basement whining about some guy way down the block daring to own a .38SPL revolver.
Sorry. Crying "But America does it.", no matter how true or false, doesn't give North Korea a free pass.
What would you do about them, Frem?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Although the Russians and Chinese are still calling for talks with North Korea, they may be getting a little nervious about such a wild-card state.
Am I the only one who strangely feels comforted by this idea?
Personally, if I'm going to be afraid of anyone, it's the ones who can recruit human beings and turn them into walking bombs for their God. I don't believe for a second that there is anyone in Korea who is looking to end the world any time soon. It's simply a bargaining tool... a way to get a seat that isn't a joke at the UN.
They haven't, and likely never will own a weapons store like the US, China or Russia have. They do have enough to cause enough problems for everyone else that maybe it's easier just to listen to what they have to say every once in a while.
I'm not an expert about Korea at all. I know really nothing of our problems with them as I'm under 30 and went to public school and never really cared to find out afterwards. If we are to believe that our representatives are being lied to about things like WMDs in Iraq, who really believes that any civillian well read in the Korea conflict really knows any more than I do? You might know more about it than I do....
Personally, I feel better with them armed. The "wildcard" indeed. Just a little more checks and balances in this majorly f-d up world. It's not as if I'm a friend to Russia or China. Hell... I don't trust my own neighbors for the most part, let alone half of a tiny island halfway around the world.
They're sane over there. And if they were for some reason to commit suicide and bomb China or Russia, WWIII wouldn't start unless we foolishly and suicidedly started lobbing bombs their way too.
Seriously... let's keep our focus on the middle east. I'm not a warhawk, and I don't believe we should be there because I don't believe that imperialism is Constitutionally sound, but that's not to say we should ignore a possible threat or dismantle our own defences either.
I hate to sound racist here, but personally I don't think middle easterners should be allowed to live in the US. The only other answer would be to "label" them like the Germans did the Jews in WWII and I'm not down with that.
They should be allowed to sell their possessions and take the money back with them. We should work hard to make their transitions to their home countries as easy as possible. Once there, it is not our problem what happens.
They don't need another 9/11 to justify installing the eye in the sky everywhere that man travels. They've got us believing that anyone with a tan could be a terrorist, yet at the same time they tell us that it's not the ones that live by us. This leaves us in the frozen position of not trusting them deep down, no matter how hard we try to be human and realize that most people individually are not trying to kill us.
So we'll just go with the third option. The one that our leaders have chosen for us now. In order to be politically correct and not remove the question marks, we will just watch everyone all of the time.
Hope you enjoy that anal cavity search for a butt-bomb at the airport Mom. Never know who might be a terrorist.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As far as M-A-D and other idiocy goes, the only country with enough maturity and balls to cast aside it's nuclear arsenal and be done with the whole bone brained idiocy... is Canada.
Of course, being a Michigander, I am very well acquainted with the fact that as a people and country, they're both more mature and well behaved than we are.
I think this is solely due to the fact that they are parasites by nature. I don't spite Canadians for this at all. They're the little brother of the big bully. They may not have the huge military, the huge federal defect, the huge platform of hypocrisy (telling the whole world how to act while not following those rules themselves), but they do have the benefit of living right next door to Big Scary Brother.
I really think Canada would be a much different nation if we were not here, or even THAT much different if we were a hostile force against them (think Isreal/Pakistan).
Bottom line... you're lucky to be a Canadian today, eh?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Sounds like American foreign policy...
Could be. Does that make a nuclear-armed North Korea any less dangerous? They have less ability to project diplomatic or economic pressure, so they're more likely than the U.S. to go directly to intimidation and blunt force. They've used both before(Before you bust a gut, yes, so has the U.S., but that's really not the issue here). They don't care if large portions of their population die, since they've been starving them to death for years.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
The point I was making is either international law, and UN mandates are fair, applied equally and are not ignored by anyone, or they simply cannot be applied at all. In other threads particularly those dealing with the Iraq war, much has been said about having to enforce international law, and the weakness of the UN not being able to do it.
As for Korea, President Roh Moo-hyun's sunshine policy of engagement was likely to bear some fruit down the line, and the deal Clinton had made was working to some degree.
Direct confrontation with North Korea has always only resulted in them getting their backs up, the more bluster and attack in the media ( axis of evil, etc ) the less they will listen to anyone.
Without an external threat, I think North Korea would eventually have the change everyone seems to desire, they cannot afford to maintain their forces and or their economic output the way they have, war at this point ( even with nukes ) is unwinable.
Kim will eventually die, the way to end this is to try to generate to conditions where a more moderate government could succeed him. Rattling sabres and making threats will not do that.
Containment, then engagement. And the South Koreans and the Chinese have to lead the way there, the US doesn't have enough credibility to achieve anything in the way directly.
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As far as M-A-D and other idiocy goes, the only country with enough maturity and balls to cast aside it's nuclear arsenal and be done with the whole bone brained idiocy... is Canada.
Of course, being a Michigander, I am very well acquainted with the fact that as a people and country, they're both more mature and well behaved than we are.
I think this is solely due to the fact that they are parasites by nature. I don't spite Canadians for this at all. They're the little brother of the big bully. They may not have the huge military, the huge federal defect, the huge platform of hypocrisy (telling the whole world how to act while not following those rules themselves), but they do have the benefit of living right next door to Big Scary Brother.
I really think Canada would be a much different nation if we were not here, or even THAT much different if we were a hostile force against them (think Isreal/Pakistan).
Bottom line... you're lucky to be a Canadian today, eh?
The only external threat Canada has ever had, was and is the US.
We could never win a war with the US force on force, if it ever happened we would have to resort to a guerrilla campaign, that the US would label as terrorism....
Mind you it would be white guys who speak your lingo and understand your culture doing it...
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
What would you do about them, Frem?
Well, one, I would quit being an absolute utter dumbass and quit with the macho bullshit saber rattling which is what keeps dickheads like that guy in power by giving them a convenient external enemy to unify their people against - it's just freakin asking for it, kept Castro in power for years, helped Chavez climb the tide, etc etc.
Secondly, I would quit denying reality and encourage responsible development in that area, now that folks know they have the capability, fine, dandy, let em know the point is made and THEN point out how much more benefit that material would be as a power plant instead of national dick-waving, not that someone like him will listen, but with *any* country there's other folk at the top a little more amenable to reason, and if we remove the external threat to rail against, all he's got left is south korea, which frankly even his own people know isn't any real kinda threat at all.
If you stop POKING the puffer-fish, eventually it deflates, yanno.
Cause that's seriously what this guy and his policies put me to mind of, trying to appear bigger and scarier so him and his country don't get swallowed up by a bigger fish, is all.
That's the thing our gunboat diplomacy fails to address, is that we got a carrot AND a stick, why not propose the idea of joining the big boys instead of fighting them, and here's what you gotta do to get your share of the pie...
Offer support and trade with other nations in proportional exchange for cutting some civil rights slack to his people, and leave disarmament off the table (cause that will just provoke em and make em all too rightfully suspicious) until we get that trade hook set good and deep and their economy becomes dependant on it.
THEN the stick, Geeze, but gently applied in a fashion that shows em how much *more* benefit playin nice with the other kids in the sandbox will be.
And frankly, I'm appalled that people we pay ludicrous sums to money to do this stuff are so mentally inflexible and intolerant that cannot see the obvious path before them, but then, that's been the case for far too damn long anyhow.
Do a little history research into how our original trade "negotiations" have gone off with them, and how we acted about it, and you'll find they got a fairly legit beef about our own behavior as regards the matter, and feeding their paranoia about our intentions is a damn stupid thing to do when you take that into account.
So, offer the carrot, but keep the stick handy.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The point I was making is either international law, and UN mandates are fair, applied equally and are not ignored by anyone, or they simply cannot be applied at all. In other threads particularly those dealing with the Iraq war, much has been said about having to enforce international law, and the weakness of the UN not being able to do it.
As for Korea, President Roh Moo-hyun's sunshine policy of engagement was likely to bear some fruit down the line, and the deal Clinton had made was working to some degree.
Direct confrontation with North Korea has always only resulted in them getting their backs up, the more bluster and attack in the media ( axis of evil, etc ) the less they will listen to anyone.
Without an external threat, I think North Korea would eventually have the change everyone seems to desire, they cannot afford to maintain their forces and or their economic output the way they have, war at this point ( even with nukes ) is unwinable.
Kim will eventually die, the way to end this is to try to generate to conditions where a more moderate government could succeed him. Rattling sabres and making threats will not do that.
Containment, then engagement. And the South Koreans and the Chinese have to lead the way there, the US doesn't have enough credibility to achieve anything in the way directly.
Bingo. Countries who don't feel like listening to the UN have an easy decision: Don't listen. Ignore the UN, as the US routinely does.
Meanwhile, threats and bluster against North Korea have been exactly as effective as they've been against Castro's Cuba - which is to say, not at all, from the US's point of view, and VERY effective, from Castro's and Kim's points of view. How so? Easy - we give them a very dangerous external enemy to hold up in front of a frightened, propagandized populace, which doesn't make them weaker, but instead makes them STRONGER. By opposing them so vociferously, we only legitimize their tyranny in the eyes of their people.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
North Korea is the crazy neighbor who gets drunk, goes out in the back yard, and starts firing his really huge gun wildly. Kim Jung Il and his pappy have run their economy so far into the ground...
Wait... they're Republicans?
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And if you wanna go stupid analogies, in this case America is the nutty militia guy with the HUGE arsenal in his basement whining about some guy way down the block daring to own a .38SPL revolver.
Sorry. Crying "But America does it.", no matter how true or false, doesn't give North Korea a free pass.
What would you do about them, Frem?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
And yet, people keep trying to use the same argument the other way around to defend torture.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Secondly, I would quit denying reality and encourage responsible development in that area, now that folks know they have the capability, fine, dandy, let em know the point is made and THEN point out how much more benefit that material would be as a power plant instead of national dick-waving...
They're not dick-waving, they're advertising. Korea already sells nuclear technology to such wonderful places as Syria and Iran. The Syrian plant Israel destroyed in 2007 was a North Korean design. They'd like to be able to sell bombs and delivery systems too.
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Offer support and trade with other nations in proportional exchange for cutting some civil rights slack to his people...
We (the rest of the world) already trade with North Korea. They trade quite a bit with China and Japan, and even South Korea. We (the U.S. this time) also provide, for free, a large percentage of the food and fuel the country uses.
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Do a little history research into how our original trade "negotiations" have gone off with them, and how we acted about it, and you'll find they got a fairly legit beef about our own behavior as regards the matter, and feeding their paranoia about our intentions is a damn stupid thing to do when you take that into account.
I have done such research and find that every agreement North Korea has made they've broken, every treaty they've signed they repudiated, and none of the promises they've made have ever been kept. Their current government is not controlled by the Party, but by the Generals and Kim. It ain't gonna change. They don't care about improving the country because they can get all they need for themselves through weapons sales, counterfeiting, drug smuggling, etc. As long as they can feed the army and the techs who make the weapons, they don't care if the people starve.
It strikes me as strange that you hate the U.S. government so much that you'd side with a dictatorship that should be the antithesis of all you claim to hold dear.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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We must invade N. Korea, obviously.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Posted by Geezer:
I have done such research and find that every agreement North Korea has made they've broken, every treaty they've signed they repudiated, and none of the promises they've made have ever been kept.
The NERVE! Who the hell do they think they are, AMERICANS?!
Oooohhh - Maybe they're CAPITALISTS!
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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I actually have a friend who's Muslim, and she's normal. Her family fled Iraq when Saddam Hussein came into power.
You can't just send back all middle-easterners or Muslims, because they're different tribes and religious sects (Muslims) or religions (Jewish and Islam) that want to kill each other.
That would work about as well as the way we (America, France, England, and Russia) divided up the Middle East after the World Wars. Which is to say, we didn't respect tribal boundaries (which we promised we would), which caused a whole hell of a lot of friction, and THEN we went and tried to impose our sovereignty over them to keep the peace. So sending back all our refugees would just end up with a lot more conflict and a lot of dead refugees.
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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
If you stop POKING the puffer-fish, eventually it deflates, yanno.
Cause that's seriously what this guy and his policies put me to mind of, trying to appear bigger and scarier so him and his country don't get swallowed up by a bigger fish, is all.
I was at the library today and picked up Pyongyang: A Journey In North Korea by Guy Delisle, a Canadian animator who lives in France and went to North Korea to have some animation work done. It's an interesting book; a graphic (i.e. illustrated) memoir of his time there.
Here's a little quote to give the flavor of the book.
"After asking two days ago, I'm being taken to visit one of the prides of the nation, the Pyongyang subway. Buried 90 meters underground, the Pyongyang subway can double as a bomb shelter in case of nuclear attack. What better way to cultivate a constant sense of threat? Marble floors, chandeliers, sculpted columns. It's a subterranean palace to the glory of public transit...In a city without electricity to power its traffic lights, the subway tunnels are lit up like Las Vegas. The tour ends at the next station. Our driver picks us up at the exit. I've never met anyone who's seen more than two stations."
He also provides a nicely illustrated breakdown of what happens to the food aid the rest of the world sends, and which feeds up to 1/3 the population.
"In this highly stratified society, the regime uses rationing to consolidate power. A national public distribution system gives citizens portions based on their loyalty and usefulness to the regime.
Useful Population
- The Core
--Party Cadres & Army officers
- The "Lukewarm"
--Skilled workers, soldiers, diplomats (pyongyang residents)
Useless Population (Receiving 250 grams of food a day)
- The Hostile
--Children of dissident parents, political prisoners(appx 200,000),laborers
An additional 5 to 6 million individuals, ignored by the regime, are left to fend for themselves. "
Interesting read.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Hmm, apparently you missed the incidents I was referring to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Sherman_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_expedition_to_Korea_(1871)
A very inauspicious beginning to our relationship with them, and a history built on that and other such jackassery leads them not to trust us very much.
-F
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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I actually have a friend who's Muslim, and she's normal. Her family fled Iraq when Saddam Hussein came into power.
You can't just send back all middle-easterners or Muslims, because they're different tribes and religious sects (Muslims) or religions (Jewish and Islam) that want to kill each other.
That would work about as well as the way we (America, France, England, and Russia) divided up the Middle East after the World Wars. Which is to say, we didn't respect tribal boundaries (which we promised we would), which caused a whole hell of a lot of friction, and THEN we went and tried to impose our sovereignty over them to keep the peace. So sending back all our refugees would just end up with a lot more conflict and a lot of dead refugees.
movie suggestion
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099356/plotsummary
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I actually have a friend who's Muslim, and she's normal. Her family fled Iraq when Saddam Hussein came into power.
You can't just send back all middle-easterners or Muslims, because they're different tribes and religious sects (Muslims) or religions (Jewish and Islam) that want to kill each other.
That would work about as well as the way we (America, France, England, and Russia) divided up the Middle East after the World Wars. Which is to say, we didn't respect tribal boundaries (which we promised we would), which caused a whole hell of a lot of friction, and THEN we went and tried to impose our sovereignty over them to keep the peace. So sending back all our refugees would just end up with a lot more conflict and a lot of dead refugees.
Not. My. Problem.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Hmm, apparently you missed the incidents I was referring to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Sherman_incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_expedition_to_Korea_(1871)
A very inauspicious beginning to our relationship with them, and a history built on that and other such jackassery leads them not to trust us very much.
-F
Fremd, we bombed Germany to rubble and nuked Japan 65 years ago and they deal with us with no rancor. Considering the changes in government and society in North Korea since 1871, I doubt your cites would be much of an issue unless the North Koreans wanted it to be.
Japan did much worse to North Korea in the 1930s and 40s, but they are currently their number three trading partner after China and South Korea.
Still not sure why you are so hot to defend one of the most repressive regimes in the world. All I can figure is that your hatred of the U.S. government blinds you to everything else.
Another little tidbit from the "Pyongyang" book.
"In the 1990s, at the height of a famine that claimed some 2 million lives, North Korea was the world's largest client for Henessy (sic) cognac."
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Let me get this straight. You're advocating extraditing people, many of them innocents, in what will basically amount to a death sentence... because things would be more convenient for you.
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I know they're a bunch of repressive dickheads, Geeze, my POINT is that we really should quit providing them with an *excuse* for it.
And we should start that by developing a negotiation scheme other than pointing a gun at them and demanding they comply.
Cause we ain't never stopped doin that, which is one reason they have more favorable relations with the people that did.
But you ain't seemin to get where I am goin with this, and it ain't cause you're stupid, it's cause you got an agenda which isn't compatible with the idea of negotiation with them as a potential equal, but reeks of more of the same dickheaded gunboat diplomacy which has done naught but cause slaughter and hard feelings for a hundred plus years.
You know what insanity is, Geeze ?
Doin the same stupid shit over and over and expecting a different result.
Oh, and Jack ?
You'll find me firmly against you on that one, and you might wanna mentally chew over what that is - just sayin.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Let me get this straight. You're advocating extraditing people, many of them innocents, in what will basically amount to a death sentence... because things would be more convenient for you.
Yes. I am advocating extracting people because the internment camps we had here were evil during WWII.
It has nothing to do with convenience.
Their very presence here gives the Government the convenient excuse to put cameras up everywhere, illegally wiretap us, illegally detain us indefinitely, and instills a fear in a majority of easily manipulated sheeple in America to allow this all to happen for their "safety".
What happens to them when they're not here anymore is not my problem. I am adamant that we are not to be invading and occupying foreign countries and have since I first started posting here. That goes both ways.
If you have a better suggestion, I'm open to reason, but their very presence here is a detriment to the freedoms of the American People (White, Black, Yellow and Red)and they need to leave. Until they clean up their own mess, they are not welcome here.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh, and Jack ?
You'll find me firmly against you on that one, and you might wanna mentally chew over what that is - just sayin.
Guess we can't agree on everything Frem...
I agree it's not a perfect solution, but without them here, there goes the need for us to allow our Government to take such invasive measures.
People will understand this way of thinking more if these people ever really do start bombing schools and malls. One of two things is going to happen then.... The first is the Government will lock down everything from the internet to the time your allowed to walk the streets at night. The second being that there will be a whole lot of dead innocent people right here on our soil when people start really losing faith in our Government to do anything about the problem and start taking measures in their own hands.
Ain't no end to the senselessness of an angry mob out for blood. Imagine how hard life will be for Habib running his local quick stop when people who speak and talk similar to him have killed children that they knew just a few miles down the road.
Them leaving now is the best thing for everyone.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Let me get this straight. You're advocating extraditing people, many of them innocents, in what will basically amount to a death sentence... because things would be more convenient for you.
Yeah, I think he is - but it's okay, because he's only saying we should send back the non-christian ones.
And he can't figure out why I confuse him for a right-wingnut...
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Their very presence here gives the Government the convenient excuse to put cameras up everywhere, illegally wiretap us, illegally detain us indefinitely, and instills a fear in a majority of easily manipulated sheeple in America to allow this all to happen for their "safety".
The government has never NEEDED an excuse to do any of the things you're talking about; all they've ever needed is your fear. Congratulations on just playing right into their hands.
So your "solution" it to just blindly knuckle under to the government and go with whatever they say is easiest, right? Let me guess, they actually sold you on it with that "it's for your own good" line of bullshit.
And who are these "sheeple" you speak of who are cowering under their beds right now? I mean, besides AuRaptor, I really haven't ever seen anyone who's as terrified of muslims as you seem to think they are.
Also, how do you weed them out? Do you just walk up and ask them if they're muslim? Do you round up anyone who isn't white? Do you patrol the mosques? Do you serve pork and detain anyone who refuses it?
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People will understand this way of thinking more if these people ever really do start bombing schools and malls. One of two things is going to happen then.... The first is the Government will lock down everything from the internet to the time your allowed to walk the streets at night. The second being that there will be a whole lot of dead innocent people right here on our soil when people start really losing faith in our Government to do anything about the problem and start taking measures in their own hands.
I find it ironic that someone who claims to lean libertarian now wants the government to actively take control of who is racially pure enough to live in "your" country. That IS what this amounts to, y'know. You want "the government" to take care of all those you find undesirable, so you won't have to get your hands dirty. And you want them to take care of you so you won't have to be vigilant and take responsibility for yourself. That's not an anarcho-libertarian value system, it's just plain weakness, cowardice, and laziness on your part.
Also, your argument that this is necessary because internment camps were evil is specious at best. You recognize that the internment camps were evil, but propose that the LESS evil thing to do would be to go them one better, and just jump right on over to deportation. I'm sure you support back-to-Africa movements for blacks, too, right?
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So your "solution" it to just blindly knuckle under to the government and go with whatever they say is easiest, right? Let me guess, they actually sold you on it with that "it's for your own good" line of bullshit.
I have no idea what your talking about here man. There's no way our government today would ever propose any solutions I've suggested. Look around you.... Is even FOX news and that dipshit O'Rielly or even the pill popping Rush so bold as to say these things?
If Imus can't get away with a "nappy-headed-ho" comment, surely suggesting what I am would be a career ending move, politically or otherwise.
So.... you gotta be kidding me.
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And who are these "sheeple" you speak of who are cowering under their beds right now? I mean, besides AuRaptor, I really haven't ever seen anyone who's as terrified of muslims as you seem to think they are.
I mentioned "sheeple" and people who cower under their own beds separately. There are many sheep who leave the bedroom and pretend that it isn't happening and there are sheeple who are oblivious to it happening too. Though the Rethugs have the lock primarily on the hiding-under-the-bed type, the Demons have plenty of sheepish tenancies as well.... but that's another post all to itself.
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Also, how do you weed them out? Do you just walk up and ask them if they're muslim? Do you round up anyone who isn't white? Do you patrol the mosques? Do you serve pork and detain anyone who refuses it?
There is no weeding out. Did I even mention Muslims or the Muslim faith one single time? I said ALL of them... Christians too.
But I'm not going to say anymore about that. I do offer my condolences to them when the innocents have to suffer for the actions of the extremists.
Don't worry... because this is a suggestion that would never come to life in the real world. The government would have far too much to lose by imposing it. The people would have to do it themselves, but to think it or dare suggest it results in a lot of hatered and misunderstanding coming from the other side (and I know that I've crossed the line into extreme "insanity" as based in the real world when Frem is in 100% disagreement with something I say).
I just don't want to see that bloodshed that will inevitably happen when another few smaller "somethings" happen. We'll probably never see something the scale of 9/11 again, at least not in the second wave, but the message delivered will be of tenfold strength next time. These people are not stupid and, having a diploma in social engineering myself, I know a little bit about getting close enough to somebody to get them to think that they're doing what they want to do when they're really doing what you want them to do.
My suggestions are to avoid senseless bloodshed on our own soil, on both sides.
The only way to avoid this happening when those tragic events occur is to impose complete Government control as far as their abilities currently allow them to impose it. (And however they can legislate more Constitutional infringements on liberty in the future, particularly when there exists a filibuster-proof Congress).
I don't want to see either of these things happen to us or them. I truly hope that people who read what I say understand that this is all with the bigger picture in mind and what seems like racist behavioral thought patterns are merely a side effect of what I see the solution as.
I don't want to be hated for my view here.
What if I were to suggest we give them a nice chunk of good land (for real this time, and not the way we screwed the indians) until this shit blows over. I don't think I've ever come off as a racist before. I just don't want to see the end result be a lot of mindless bloodshed or worse yet, a Government which rips up the constitution and imposes invasive behavior on a tyrannical scale by micromanaging of our very lives to prevent the bloodshed from occuring.
You got a better suggestion for all of us cupcake?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I know they're a bunch of repressive dickheads, Geeze, my POINT is that we really should quit providing them with an *excuse* for it.
And we should start that by developing a negotiation scheme other than pointing a gun at them and demanding they comply.
We did. In 2007 at the Six-Party Talks we agreed to provide them with food and fuel, and they agreed to stop playing with nuclear weapons. That sure worked.
Even if we left them completely alone, they would still be able to manufacture an *excuse* relating to Japan or South Korea. Given the government's control of the media in North Korea, they could probably blame San Marino and most of the population would buy it.
North Korea CAN'T come into the world. They can't allow their people to know what's actually happening. They will manufacture threats, and spread them through their media, even if no threats exist. They need to keep their wall up and prevent any contact with the outside.
BTW, countries other than the U.S. have tried negotiating with North Korea. They get the same broken promises and treaties, and have for years. It's just the way North Korea handles foreign policy.
You know what insanity is, Frem?
Doin the same stupid shit over and over and expecting a different result.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Here's an idea: how's about we DON'T let the government invade our privacy, and if some shithead does get some whimsy to start killing people, we treat them like the common murderer they are.
There's plenty of ways to die in this world, plenty of people who'd like to go crazy and start killing you who aren't islamic, and aren't strictly terrorists. Like corrupt power tripping cops who like to beat on people, or socially maladjusted kids whose parents ought to be tried for gross negligence (sometimes I wish incompetence was a crime), or people who are just psychotic or sadistic. Can't protect against any of them, really, so there's no real need to make any distinctions.
What would really help is if the average population pulled their heads out of their asses, opened their eyes, looked around, and started taking some responsibility for themselves and the people around them, instead of expecting the government (or government policy) to do it for them. You know if the flight instructors had stopped to think for themselves and questioned just what these Saudi nationals were doing wanting to learn how to fly planes, 9-11 might not have happened?
It's in our government's best interests to keep the tragedies coming though, so the population gets more scared and more dependent.
What the population NEEDS is to wake up.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I know they're a bunch of repressive dickheads, Geeze, my POINT is that we really should quit providing them with an *excuse* for it.
And we should start that by developing a negotiation scheme other than pointing a gun at them and demanding they comply.
We did. In 2007 at the Six-Party Talks we agreed to provide them with food and fuel, and they agreed to stop playing with nuclear weapons. That sure worked.
Even if we left them completely alone, they would still be able to manufacture an *excuse* relating to Japan or South Korea. Given the government's control of the media in North Korea, they could probably blame San Marino and most of the population would buy it.
North Korea CAN'T come into the world. They can't allow their people to know what's actually happening. They will manufacture threats, and spread them through their media, even if no threats exist. They need to keep their wall up and prevent any contact with the outside.
BTW, countries other than the U.S. have tried negotiating with North Korea. They get the same broken promises and treaties, and have for years. It's just the way North Korea handles foreign policy.
You know what insanity is, Frem?
Doin the same stupid shit over and over and expecting a different result.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
This is what South Koreas sunshine policy was all about. Trying to do business up north, culture and scientific exchange, they even ran a factory on the border ( at a loss I hear ) to have regular people work together and start to think about things.
Then the name calling and posturing shut all of it down.
Sure other countrys have tried other approaches, but when ever the US starts in, everything else gets shoved off the table. Here, Palestine, the middle east... everywhere.
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Yikes, Jack - you know better than this, besides, the ones over HERE are the ones who hate those crapheads over THERE so badly that they were willing to move to a country with a whole different language and culture to get a fresh start, to get away from those jerks.
Believe me, I am well aware of this since I happen to live right near Dearborn and it's significant arabic descended population, most of whom are pretty cool folks, and they're annoyed as hell at the perception that just cause of their ancestry that they are some kind of rabid fanatics who want to blow shit up and lemme add on top of it with this YOU are falling for the divide and conquer gambit that you're usually so good at catching out.
As for them being used as an excuse, shit man, the powers that be will ALWAYS find someone to demonise, some bullshit excuse, it's down to us not to be gullible enough to fall for it - look how flat the attempted swine flu panic has fallen, as a perfect example of we the people NOT falling for that fearmongering bullshit.
Which you HAVE fallen for, here.
Lemme point this out to you in no uncertain terms - the ONLY bombing by one of these radical shits successfully carried out over here was Ramzi Youssefs boys, who would not, could not, have pulled it off if the FBI had not handed them the bomb and an expert to wire it up (Emad Salem) and then made sure to go hands off till they detonated it.
You know why ?
Cause no domestic arabic community will tolerate, nor support that shit, not only cause of the lynch mob mentality of people too STUPID to realize the ones who moved here are our friends, but because they do not like those shitheads any more than we do!
As the FBI has learned the hard way, dimwits going around in Dearborn trying to start a jihad wind up with thier ass royally kicked BY the locals, and quickly, they moved to america to get AWAY from that bullshit and they'll not countenance it here - and yet the friggin FBI keeps sending in provacateurs to try and pick shit, and threatening or trying to blackmail/extort people who would, if you didn't DO that, actually be more than willing to help bag up and deport assholes who wanna start some shit.
Think about it, your import-version fanatic, he doesn't speak the language, knows nothing of the culture due to his OWN arrogance, or at least has a very distorted image of it, has no supplies or equipment, and the local folks who DO speak his language would just as soon lynch his ass themselves as an object lesson - the only real source of intel, equipment and supplies these asswipes have EVER found here is the very alphabet goons who are SUPPOSED to be preventing this crap, but more often than not wind up sponsoring it!
I myself have a bit of a grudge over it due to what happened in my last little hometown - was a gas station on the main drag, run by a pretty decent arabic fellow with a less than personable wife, and all this guy wanted was the american dream, he was cheerful and quite tolerant, if a bit hen-pecked, and more honest than the gas station up at the other end, which has been repeatedly fined for shorting gallons, selling impure gasoline and a couple other things, and they started pickin crap by accusing him of shit cause he was "stealing all their business" by not being an asshole.
Well, he was having trouble with the insane amount of red tape involved in becoming a citizen, something he VERY much wanted to do, and was often on the phone trying to FIX, mind you - and you know what happened to him ?
The freakin DepHomeSec creeps rolled up and headbagged him right there on main street in broad daylight, and past that nobody knows what happened to the guy - that gas station lies deserted now, weeds growing up through the concrete, one more business not doin business, and now it's either buy contaminated crap from the crooks up the road or go five miles down the service drive and pay city prices, something ain't nobody happy about, and has left the folks who live in that town with a nasty disposition towards the agents of authority,
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Even if we left them completely alone, they would still be able to manufacture an *excuse* relating to Japan or South Korea.
Sure, I pointed that out - but dude, if they're obviously not gonna keep an agreement, many of which you gotta admit were forced on them, mind you - why the hell make agreements with em ?
After a couple times, you'd think we'd learn about that, yes ?
They don't like us, fine, they don't HAVE to like us, and if they do pick some shit we're quite capable of turning their country into a blackened wasteland, so why bother with em ?
I don't like what they do to their own, but it ain't our country, and I sure as hell wouldn't provide them a damn thing (I am all in favor of yanking ANY form of foreign aid to anyone these days) till they come to us and offer something in return.
They wanna be isolationist, let em, long as they do it on their OWN turf, that's all on them and sooner or later that'll implode on them, but we don't need to go around addressing the worlds problems when we got stuff needing attention here at home - so we should simply take up a stance of neither supporting NOR threatening them, and leave it the hell alone.
Trying to poke our nose in where it's unwanted has ever been the road to disaster for us, and this is no different, sooner or later his own people will get sick of him and do something about it, if ENOUGH of your population wants you gone, you're gone, no two ways about it.
There's a merit to leaving the hell alone you know - so he has a nuke, so what, he's surrounded by folk a lot nastier than us who have no patience with the idea of him using it, and for all his puffer-fish blustering it's a given that he's well aware that trying the patience of those folk too far is asking for the chop.
He don't wanna deal with us, fine - let him try dealin with Putin or Hu Jintao, see how far he gets with that.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
They don't like us, fine, they don't HAVE to like us, and if they do pick some shit we're quite capable of turning their country into a blackened wasteland, so why bother with em ?
Because if they do 'pick some shit' with a nuke they could kill tens or hundreds of thousands of people. They've got the bomb and the delivery system, which puts all of South Korea and Japan squarely in their sights. Kim has pretty much said he'd be willing to lose 70% of North Korea's population in a war. He and his cadre have plenty of hideouts. They don't care about the population in general, and know that even if they did use a nuke, there'd be too much international handwringing for anyone to respond in kind.
But I guess if it's not you getting blown up, just Japanese or South Koreans, it's fine.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
But I guess if it's not you getting blown up, just Japanese or South Koreans, it's fine.
Excuse me? Didn't you support the invasion and occupation of Iraq?
I guess as long as it's not you getting blown up, just some innocent Iraqis and Kurds, that's all fine, right?
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Kim has pretty much said he'd be willing to lose 70% of North Korea's population in a war. He and his cadre have plenty of hideouts. They don't care about the population in general, and know that even if they did use a nuke, there'd be too much international handwringing for anyone to respond in kind.
Some cites to back up any of those claims would be nice. Otherwise, people might just have to assume you're passing on right-wing propaganda.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So your "solution" it to just blindly knuckle under to the government and go with whatever they say is easiest, right? Let me guess, they actually sold you on it with that "it's for your own good" line of bullshit.
I have no idea what your talking about here man. There's no way our government today would ever propose any solutions I've suggested. Look around you.... Is even FOX news and that dipshit O'Rielly or even the pill popping Rush so bold as to say these things?
Bold? Don't you mean "stupid"? No, they're not so stupid as to say these things. As for you not knowing what I'm talking about, I'm talking about you posting THIS:
Quote:
I hate to sound racist here, but personally I don't think middle easterners should be allowed to live in the US. The only other answer would be to "label" them like the Germans did the Jews in WWII and I'm not down with that.
They should be allowed to sell their possessions and take the money back with them. We should work hard to make their transitions to their home countries as easy as possible. Once there, it is not our problem what happens.
If Imus can't get away with a "nappy-headed-ho" comment, surely suggesting what I am would be a career ending move, politically or otherwise.
So.... you gotta be kidding me.
So you don't think "middle easterners" (without ever going into detail about who exactly those people would be) should be "allowed" to live here. Your other "solution" (would it be your "final solution"?) would be to label them as such. You say "we" would allow them to sell their possessions and help make shipping them out as easy as possible, yet you somehow can't quite fathom how I'd ever mistake that for wanting the government involved in this plan? Who did you think was going to do it? Who is this "we" you speak of, if the government isn't going to be involved?
And if you're not proposing this as some kind of solution, or as an honest and serious proposal, then what's your point? If we're just wish-making here, I could as easily say that the solution to global warming is that cows should fart rainbows.
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And who are these "sheeple" you speak of who are cowering under their beds right now? I mean, besides AuRaptor, I really haven't ever seen anyone who's as terrified of muslims as you seem to think they are.
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I mentioned "sheeple" and people who cower under their own beds separately. There are many sheep who leave the bedroom and pretend that it isn't happening and there are sheeple who are oblivious to it happening too. Though the Rethugs have the lock primarily on the hiding-under-the-bed type, the Demons have plenty of sheepish tenancies as well.... but that's another post all to itself.Quote:
Also, how do you weed them out? Do you just walk up and ask them if they're muslim? Do you round up anyone who isn't white? Do you patrol the mosques? Do you serve pork and detain anyone who refuses it?
There is no weeding out. Did I even mention Muslims or the Muslim faith one single time? I said ALL of them... Christians too.
Okay, what are your criteria then? How do you pick who gets sent back. You say "middle easterners" - where does your theoretical middle east start and end? And how many generations must we send back? Are we just kicking out people who have themselves come from the mid-east, or are we kicking out those whose parents and grandparents came from there? It sounds as if you only want "real" Americans in America; if so, I hope you're of 100% Native American descent. Otherwise, you better pack your bags and get the fuck out!
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But I'm not going to say anymore about that. I do offer my condolences to them when the innocents have to suffer for the actions of the extremists.
Don't worry... because this is a suggestion that would never come to life in the real world. The government would have far too much to lose by imposing it. The people would have toNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Some cites to back up any of those claims would be nice. Otherwise, people might just have to assume you're passing on right-wing propaganda.
Okay.
From Doctors Without Borders(Médecins Sans Frontières).
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MSF began to understand that the North Korean government categorises its population according to perceived loyalty and usefulness to the regime, and those deemed hostile or useless were expendable. In fact, in 1996, Kim Jong-il publicly declared that only 30% of the population needed to survive to reconstruct a victorious society. With no possibility of directing aid to those most in need, MSF withdrew.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=335007FE-29B7-
4E69-B88BBDF0379FFE1A&component=toolkit.article&method=full_html&CFID=9710811&CFTOKEN=83205964
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The subway
system in Pyongyang, which extends some 34 kilometers and is 100 meters in depth
on average, was designed as a massive bomb shelter for the two million residents of
that city. In addition, it is believed that virtually every town is equipped with similarly
secure shelters. This sense of fear of the threat of a U.S.-backed South Korea
accelerated the development of the nuclear weapons program.
http://www.keia.org/Publications/OnKorea/2008/08Park.pdf
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:What you are describing is called ethnic cleansing, and it is what the Nazis did.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I hate to sound racist here, but personally I don't think middle easterners should be allowed to live in the US. The only other answer would be to "label" them like the Germans did the Jews in WWII and I'm not down with that.
They should be allowed to sell their possessions and take the money back with them. We should work hard to make their transitions to their home countries as easy as possible. Once there, it is not our problem what happens.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:So we should just wait for something to happen and then commit total war against them?
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
They don't like us, fine, they don't HAVE to like us, and if they do pick some shit we're quite capable of turning their country into a blackened wasteland, so why bother with em ?
I don't like what they do to their own, but it ain't our country, and I sure as hell wouldn't provide them a damn thing (I am all in favor of yanking ANY form of foreign aid to anyone these days) till they come to us and offer something in return.
They wanna be isolationist, let em, long as they do it on their OWN turf, that's all on them and sooner or later that'll implode on them, but we don't need to go around addressing the worlds problems when we got stuff needing attention here at home - so we should simply take up a stance of neither supporting NOR threatening them, and leave it the hell alone.
Your sympathy for Stalinist regimes is touching, but more amazing is your solution is to ignore the problem until North Korea abandons the armistice, at which point your initial response would be to turn “their country into a blackened wasteland.” At first that sounded too psychotic to be taken seriously, but then I remember some of your other comments and it seems sadly in character. Usually war is considered a last resort, and certainly total war is considered a tactic of desperation, but for you, it’s the baseline response.
What’s even more amazing is that Geezer and I are the only ones who seem to think there is anything wrong with this. Certain people who claim to be oppose Bush for the war in Iraq, not only have nothing to say against what you’ve said here, but seem to defend you.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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As opposed to deliberately *provoking* a war ?
Please.
Sayin we should cut em off and quit enabling that regimes bullshit isn't ignoring the problem - and you DO realize that sending a team into someone elses country to blow shit up, or bombing it, is an act of war, right ?
And it's not like the UN has any real authority when it's pretty clear to the whole world that certain countries don't have to abide by the rules, therefore invalidating it's whole purpose.
Just like typical right wingers, talk a whole bunch of shit and threats when someone is apparently helpless, then piss yourselves in fear the minute they're actually proveably armed.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Oh, and that's another thing, this planet doesn't revolve around the USA there, dude.
We're also not the only country on it, and despite what your oh so typical american arrogance would have you believe, they're not completely helpless or clueless you know.
In fact, that little paranoid git is surrounded by folk who not only know him better, but have their hooks buried way deeper into his ass than we ever will cause maniac that he is, he wasn't crazy enough to trust us, oh hell no.
Look at what trusting us and the UN got Saddam - don't shine me, I knew (and called WELL in advance) we weren't using those inspections to prove or disprove a goddamned thing, we were usin em to make sure his county was all but helpless before we invaded it - and everyone else on the planet knows it whether WE admit it, even to ourselves or not.
As far a 'sympathy' for a government goes - did you somehow forget I am an Anarchist with no sympathy whatever for ANY government ?
Besides which, if you dislike 'stalinism' so much, where ya been for the past two administrations AND the current one moving towards it as hard and as fast as they can, eh ?
I got zero sympathy for governments, only some for his people, and not a lot of that cause if enough of em wanted him gone, he'd BE gone - and then what, having some other first world country prop up some dipshit like Pinochet, or Papa Doc, or hell.. Saddam ?
Fuck that, the only reason they tolerate him is cause he's the devil they know, and his ass is in between them and OUR interference, which historically wouldn't better their lot very goddamn much, just ask RAWA how much our actions have "improved" their lot in fucking afghanistan, thanks a bunch!
And if we ain't on his ass, you got Putin, who is NOT a very nice man, and his government is a lot more ruthless and less patient than ours, just ask the georgians - or how bout the chinese, who likely sold him that shit in the first place, ain't likely to be very amused, and are almost assuredly sharpening their knives and waiting for him to fuck up, cause they're smart enough to not telegraph their plans by talking shit in advance.
As for your ticking bomb mushroom cloud bullshit, yanno, I heard this pathetic little sob story before, about India, about Pakistan...
So, umm, when did the nuclear armageddon we were promised happen then ?
Oh, wait, like - NEVER!
You wanna sit there in your knee-knocking fear howling for someone to "do something" you go right the hell ahead, but don't expect ME to fall for that bullshit - you wanna be scared of a bunch of crazy fuckers with nukes, look to DC, look to the only folks who ever actually dropped one on people.
As for Puffer-Fish-Boy, the rest of the world can handle his ass just fine WITHOUT our ham fisted stupidity, and it's about goddamn time people like you and yours realized that.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As far a 'sympathy' for a government goes - did you somehow forget I am an Anarchist with no sympathy whatever for ANY government ?
Besides which, if you dislike 'stalinism' so much, where ya been for the past two administrations AND the current one moving towards it as hard and as fast as they can, eh ?
I wouldn't worry, Finn has a long history of making baseless and wild personal accusations about people who make statements he finds himself unable to argue against. He's calling you Stalinist, because he can't actually argue against what you were actually saying, not at least without showing himself up as the crazed Authoritarian Jingoist Nut-Job most of us know him to be. The reason no one else is picking you up on this, is because we know what you meant.
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Quote:That’s right. Iraq made that very clear. North Korea need not worry about UN resolutions, since according to events surround Iraq, the UN won’t enforce anything anyway. Until members of the UN decide to act to enforce those rules on their own. My guess is that North Korea thinks having nuclear weapons will prevent members from acting to enforce the UN, which may be true.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And it's not like the UN has any real authority when it's pretty clear to the whole world that certain countries don't have to abide by the rules, therefore invalidating it's whole purpose.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Yeah, poor Saddam Hussein.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Look at what trusting us and the UN got Saddam - don't shine me, I knew (and called WELL in advance) we weren't using those inspections to prove or disprove a goddamned thing, we were usin em to make sure his county was all but helpless before we invaded it - and everyone else on the planet knows it whether WE admit it, even to ourselves or not.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
and you DO realize that sending a team into someone elses country to blow shit up, or bombing it, is an act of war, right ?
Yep.
Quote:
In October 1983, a P'yongyang-directed terrorist attack resulted in the cessation of the peace process. A bomb that exploded in Rangoon, Burma, killed twenty-one people, including seventeen high-ranking officials of the South Korean government then visiting Burma. The bombing was planned and executed by personnel drawn from North Korean army units. Chun's decision not to retaliate with force set a precedent that won him praise from abroad and sympathy for his unpopular regime at home. Seoul's reliance on diplomatic and economic measures to counter terrorism rather than a small-scale attack on a North Korean target, which could be used as an excuse for beginning an all-out war, effectively mobilized international public opinion to limit trade and other contacts with North Korea.
Another terrorist attack occurred in September 1987 when two North Korean saboteurs placed a bomb on a Seoul-bound Korean Air Boeing 707 aircraft carrying ninety-five passengers and twenty crew members. The plane exploded over the Andaman Sea (south of Burma), killing all aboard. Chun, following the precedent set in 1983 after the Rangoon bombing, ruled out military retaliation and asked the international community to condemn North Korea for its continued belligerence.
http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-12364.html
Oh, and this.
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North Korea has admitted kidnapping 13 Japanese citizens in the 1970s and 1980s to help train spies.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/international/402772/japan_issues_arrest_
warrants_for_nkorean_agents/
and,
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Thousands of South Korean troops backed by helicopters and tracker dogs searched a mountainous area today for the last survivors of a group of North Korean commandos who apparently sneaked into South Korea from a submarine before dawn on Wednesday
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/19/world/south-koreans-hunt-last-of-inf
iltrators-from-sub.html
plus,
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In January 1968 a group of North Korean saboteurs assaulted the presidential palace, the Blue House, in the hopes of assassinating President Park.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/state/fruskorea.html
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh, and that's another thing, this planet doesn't revolve around the USA there, dude.
Sure it does. As you never refrain from telling us, it's all America's fault. Nothing happens without our intervention. Nations and peoples around the world are completely incapable of doing anything unless it's in response to American provocation. If it hadn't been for America, Hitler would have changed into lederhosen and gone back to painting. Stalin would have held free and fair elections. Columbus would have suggested to Ferdinand and Isabella that the new world be left to the natives. They would have agreed.
Kim Jung Il, the guy you tivialize as a 'puffer-fish' managed, in a country with a population of 23 million, to starve 2.5 to 3.5 million of them to death in 5 years. This is four to six times the number of Japanese civilian causalties in WWII. Up to a few years ago, you could be executed for owning an unapproved radio (now it's just exile to slow starvation for you and your family). But that's all right, since he's not American, it can't be real injustice.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geeze, I am well aware that NK has committed various and sundry acts of war against South Korea - but being the target of those actions, South Korea decides the response, not us.
And since neither South Korea nor Japan decided to go to war with em, them being the aggreived parties, why should WE bitch about it ?
The Russians pissed em off pretty bad back then too, when they blew KAL 007 out of the air, which was a *seriously* dickheaded thing to do, and credit to Reagan for having the bright idea to open up the military GPS to civilian airlines to prevent such fuckups in the future, a useful piece of non military intervention that has benefitted the world as a whole.
There's MORE responses than either do nothing or go all out armageddon, ya dimwit - you *might* recall that since we installed and propped up that dick Saddam in the first place, I was ALL in favor of assassinating his ass cause that fell under the "shoot your own dog" philosophy, and that didn't require sticking our dicks in a wringer.
As for your pathetic little strawman, Kim Jong ain't got shit to do with us, but I *am* going to call us out on shit we DID do, like endless rounds of "gunboat diplomacy" and our little proxy war back in the fifties.
What he DOES have to do with, is South Korea, cause as of yesterday he's officially withdrawn the original armistice signed to end that conflict, which does concern me some, but even the white house staff referred to this as "saber-rattling and bluster".
(Yes, I have a cite, related link at end of this post)
From the looks of it, the bastard just MIGHT be crazy enough to try a limited conventional engagement while hiding under his nuclear "shield", which is not so much a threat when neither the Russians nor China will back him up, and the UN, NATO and us will back the South Koreans, which I don't have a major problem with as they're our allies - but it's THEIR show, not ours, it's their country under threat, and to dictate their responses to them would be an insult, not that it ever stops us.
And while what the punk does in his OWN country, distasteful though it may be, is his own business - the minute any of his military forces cross the line we (we as in South Korea, backed up by the rest of the world) damn well should vaporise them with extreme prejudice, and use ENOUGH force to make damn sure he gets the message.
But talk - that's just talk, ANYONE can talk shit, it don't mean a whole lot, what matters is what they DO, and while we should be aware of and prepared to respond to a threat, he isn't one, not to us - and therefore our role in it should be limited to backing up the folk he IS a threat to.
And until he actually does something other than talk, fuck him - he wants folk to be afraid of him cause his power, like most other power, rests on fear, and to hell if imma hand him any over me in that fashion.
You get into that pre-emptive "but they might" bullshit, you might as well kill everyone on the planet cause they "might, someday" do something, and it's shit like that which causes so much needless trauma in so many ways, from this latest shoveljob from on high about "preventive detention" and even the FLDS fiasco, over what "might, someday" happen ?
Fuck that - I refuse to live in fear, not of men, governments or even gods.
And if he DOES do something, then we kick his ass so hard he'll need a dentist to do a prostate exam, but until that moment, he's just one more dickhead with a loud mouth, is all.
People like him ain't GOT power, till someone GIVES it to em by being afraid of him, or the boogeymen he holds up to scare people, just like any other government - you wanna hand him some more, you go right on with that.
Related Link: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5goGcm6AL4tHyTt3gp1P
UV6rNu9fA
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Kim Il Chia-Pet-Hair is fugging insane. I would not put it past him to just totally lose it one day and launch everything he's got. Sure, it's suicide for him and his country, but his ilk don't care. Sayonara Tokyo & Seoul.
p.s. Sorry world, but when I see films of those countless rows of North Korean female soldiers marching in step in their uniforms, well shit, it's a real turn-on. They're all just so damn cute! They can capture me any time they want.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Geeze, I am well aware that NK has committed various and sundry acts of war against South Korea - but being the target of those actions, South Korea decides the response, not us.
And since neither South Korea nor Japan decided to go to war with em, them being the aggreived parties, why should WE bitch about it ?
South Korea and Japan have bitched about it, and, since we have defense treaties with both of them, we back them up by bitching about it too. If someone threatens your friends, or those you've agreed to help, do you ignore it?
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
My folk aren't armed, and due to the nature of our legal system and the possibility of getting sued - are in fact forbidden to even attempt detainment of a perp, SOP is to scare them witless, helped along by the mysterious rumor that our company will put you at the bottom of the nearby lake and end the matter there.
I'm sure the bits of chain and cinderblocks next to harry's boat out back have helped feed this rumor quite nicely.
Guess not.
Quote:
There's MORE responses than either do nothing or go all out armageddon, ya dimwit -
I know that, you idiot. I've never suggested we attack North Korea, just that we should be prepared to preempt any action they take, and possibly prevent them from selling nuclear technology to any psycho government (and you hate government, remember) that has the bucks.
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As for your pathetic little strawman, Kim Jong ain't got shit to do with us...
Once again, if he attacks South Korea, with whom we have treaties, it does got shit to do with us. If you agree to help your neighbor defend his home, and someone trys to break in, do you say, "Well, it ain't got shit to do with me."?
Quote:With whom we have defense treaties.
What he DOES have to do with, is South Korea,
Quote:
And while what the punk does in his OWN country, distasteful though it may be, is his own business
I'm sure the people starving to death there appreciate your concern.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Nice job of cherry picking to step around me saying we damn well should back em up, all those little keyworded chain yanks musta caught close enough to home to annoy you, especially since you went rakin other posts to take a quote out of context.
On that note:
If folks want armed security and the legal team necessary for it's use, they can damn well pay for it - we don't DO this job out of the goodness of our hearts you know, despite me having enough personal regard for site three to throw in a little extra now and then, it *is* my community after all.
And since your own cherry picking distortions have rendered the rest of your whole argument invalid in light of my blatantly stated preference for kickin his ass right up the back of his neck if he DOES do something...
Lemme point out your own complete hypocrisy.
You didn't give a rats ass about "his people" and you still don't, save as an excuse to vilify others when you cannot justify your own cowardly behavior - a deflection I'd usually just ignore and give you a pass on, but not this time.
If his people don't fuckin like it, then they can do what people have historically done many times, if ENOUGH of your people want you gone, you're gone, and misery and all, the bastard is more palatable to them than throwing his ass out would be - and despite the fact that he's a total slimeball, look at Iraq, or Somalia, you throw down a regime willy-nilly without some other card in your hand to put on the table, you might end up with worse, and in a total government collapse you'll have even MORE people starve to death (See Also: Biafra) so don't play black n white with me and then pretend you didn't.
So don't come whining to me about the fate of 'his people' when concern for them is no part of your agenda but justification for shit you can't find a real reason for.
And lest you forget in your partisan blindness, I am neither a liberal, nor a pacifist, and I *AM* quite supporting of playing "dirty" on a national level so long as we do it in a discrete, competent manner - while I find it distasteful, it's still better than this mighty-whitey-righty yes-sifu hoo-rah macho BULLSHIT that just gets all the wrong people killed.
Ponder this. (Re: Saddam)
A bullet costs less than five bucks, and we coulda found any number of people willing to fire it for not much more than that, even cheaper if we hired some fanatic fool enough to martyr himself in true hashishin fashion by getting close enough to make sure.
Would they be pissed ? sure, but not all that much more than they already were, and CERTAINLY not as pissed as they are now.
Would they be able to DO much about it, especially if they couldn't prove it cause no one was stupid enough to blab it all over Fox News for months and months in advance ?
Nope.
Would he still be dead ? shit yeah.
And frankly, casualties, disorder and expense would have been significantly less than they have been with the damn stupid way we did go about it.
If this guy is such a maniac as that, then we should have a little chat with the Chinese and give them the nod and a wink while suggesting they find someone to cap his ass - pretty sure if he's got that big an "issue" with disaffected parties, there's a damn plenty of em to pick from who're already entertaining fond thoughts of mating his skull to a 7.62x54R - I doubt it would take much effort on behalf of the Chinese to enourage it to the point where it happens.
That's one reason I am not in favor of wars, cause the peons with no say do all the dyin while the leaders retire to the bahamas or go into cushy exile - fuck that, we peons are sick of that shit, let the leaders start capping each other if they got such a goddamn problem.
But of course that concept is likely so wholly alien to your way of thinking it won't even register.
You really don't have any concept of what yer dealin with, cause it doesn't fit into any of your neat little mental categories - and that offends you, doesn't it ?
GOOD.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Are middle-easterners Americans? You say it isn't about racism, but you want to force an entire group of people out of this country based on nothing more than your own fear of them.
I don't fear them. I've said countless times to the FAR right folk in here that the only way we'd be suffering bombings in schools in malls is if our Government allowed it to happen (for their own gain).
The only entity I fear here is the Government. It is other people's fear of middle easterners living among us that will allow Government to do as it pleases, just as the American economy has had the final nail put in the coffin in recent months because of the people's fear of recession.
Perhaps this isn't a good solution, but Government micro-managing of our lives allowed because of our fear of them, in my book, is the greater of two evils in this situation.
It has nothing to do with race or racism from my platform. I just know that as long as they are here and didn't clean up the shit in their own home country, our Government will use them to achieve what they desire. Obama was supposed to change that...... but look where we are now.
Hell... It drives me up a fucking wall that I'm almost missing Bush at this point.
I hate to sound so blunt, and I know it's not as simple as I'm making it here, and I realize there is a great deal of what I'm saying that is very unfair..... but ask yourself this one question?
Would people in America and any European country with lax immigration laws and a lot of middle easterners within teh borders be even close to as worried about what was going on in the Middle East today if there weren't so many people from there living in their own neighborhoods today?
PS.. this wouldn't be the Government doing this. If this happened, it would have to be because of resounding support of it by the people. They would have to be forced into it on a large scale to get it done in today's P.C. world.
But who am I kidding.....? When they start taxing your Soda at a buck a can, you'll all just roll over and let them rape you. If we can't even protect soda and beer protected from the ridiculous "sin" taxes (which unlike cigarettes are both enjoyed by a majority of Americans), and we can't get a decent man into the throne... how would we ever be able to really get something meaningful done.
Could we all at least agree that until shit dies down we firmly watch our borders and suspend future immigration? We do have a whole lot of gangland influence breaking our well defended
southern border because of our failed "War on Drugs".Can we at least keep the new bad guys out?
Also... Please allow me to put it into terms the Liberals here would understand....
If we internment camp people here, or make them wear badges or ship them home.... well... that's kinda like putting your baby in a dumpster. We're not down with that....
But if we were to prevent people from coming in starting today, well that's like birth control. Hell... even extracting all of the ones who aren't legal American citizens would be nothing more than abortion.
Where's the difference?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Nice job of cherry picking to step around me saying we damn well should back em up, all those little keyworded chain yanks musta caught close enough to home to annoy you, especially since you went rakin other posts to take a quote out of context.
Huh?
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You didn't give a rats ass about "his people" and you still don't, save as an excuse to vilify others when you cannot justify your own cowardly behavior - a deflection I'd usually just ignore and give you a pass on, but not this time.
You're wrong, but you're so into your "hate America" thing I doubt I could convince you otherwise; so I won't bother.
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If his people don't fuckin like it, then they can do what people have historically done many times, if ENOUGH of your people want you gone, you're gone, and misery and all, the bastard is more palatable to them than throwing his ass out would be...
Good thing France didn't take that attitude in 1776.
When was the last successful people's revolution which was not supported by outside actors? The North Korean peasants can't grab their rifles off the mantle and form militias to overthrow the government. They don't have any communication with the outside world at all. They've been brainwashed, like the kids forced into prostitution you care so much about - but for 60 years: from the cradle. The Army knows that they need to keep the people in line to keep being fed. The government completely controls the media, and if the people think the government is defending them, it's only because of 60 years of lies, continuously repeated.
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So don't come whining to me about the fate of 'his people' when concern for them is no part of your agenda but justification for shit you can't find a real reason for.
Don't try taking your mind-reading act on the road, Frem. They'd boo you off the stage.
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Ponder this. (Re: Saddam)
A bullet costs less than five bucks, and we coulda found any number of people willing to fire it for not much more than that, even cheaper if we hired some fanatic fool enough to martyr himself in true hashishin fashion by getting close enough to make sure.
Assuming a hashed-up nutcase could get the real Saddam and not a double, we would'a ended up with Uday and Qusay; and a really paranoid Uday and Qusay who'd be really trigger-happy. Bad news for anyone near enough Iraq to be attacked. Yep, that sounds like a solution.
Also, remember how well trying to assassinate Castro turned out.
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If this guy is such a maniac as that, then we should have a little chat with the Chinese and give them the nod and a wink while suggesting they find someone to cap his ass
But the Chinese don't want him dead, or he probably would be.
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You really don't have any concept of what yer dealin with, cause it doesn't fit into any of your neat little mental categories - and that offends you, doesn't it ?
I could say the same about you. You've got "America, the warmonger" so stuck in your brain you see nothing else.
If you read the news, you might notice that just about every major country in the world is criticizing North Korea's recent actions. Russia and China are criticizing them. The EU and much of Asia are criticizing them. They all understand that North Korea will sell the weapons they're testing to any nutcase tinpot dictator with the money, and don't want that to happen. They don't want the world any more destabilised than it is.
Also, no one is threatening to go to war with North Korea. The most folk are trying to do is to keep them from shipping the aforesaid weapons to the aforesaid dictators.
It's North Korea who keeps threatening war, and with the fourth largest army in the world - now with extra added nuclear capability - the world has to react to that. They're doing so in a unified fashion.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Also... Please allow me to put it into terms the Liberals here would understand....
If we internment camp people here, or make them wear badges or ship them home.... well... that's kinda like putting your baby in a dumpster. We're not down with that....
But if we were to prevent people from coming in starting today, well that's like birth control. Hell... even extracting all of the ones who aren't legal American citizens would be nothing more than abortion.
Where's the difference?
What? Where's the response to those questions? Too much truth for anyone to handle here?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Maybe your "questions" were just too ludicrous to be taken seriously, 6ix.
Deportation is to abortion as fish is to bicycle.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
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Jongsstraw: Is it just me, or do those women look terrified?
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6ix: The thing is, we went down that path before.
In the 1940s, would people in neighborhoods be half as worried about what was going on with the war in Japan if there weren't people of Japanese ancestry in those same neighborhoods?
No, they wouldn't have been. But look at the result. We never found any spies, and I'm not saying they didn't exist (or that they don't exist now), but I AM saying that no matter what you do, someone, somehow, will manage to evade the little round-up you're suggesting.
I don't think you want to flush those bombing nutters out into the open and take away the community of people most likely to be paying attention and smacking down that kind of behaviour unless you want to make them desperate and give them an opportunity. If we think we've taken care of the problem, we stop looking, you know what I mean?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Jongsstraw: Is it just me, or do those women look terrified?
It's likely that everyone in N. Korea is terrified, and if Kimmy is anything like soul-mate Sadaam, then those in his inner circle are the most terrified. I know a lot of Korean-American gals from work and they are just the best. Funny, smart, & pretty. It's a real shame all Koreans are not free. I think for these military gals in N. Korea, they're doing much better than the average person there.
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It's North Korea who keeps threatening war, and with the fourth largest army in the world - now with extra added nuclear capability - the world has to react to that. They're doing so in a unified fashion.
Which is, as I pointed out, the correct thing to do, don't sit there and pretend I don't think the guy is a tyrant, a jackass and enough of a threat to bear watchin, since I've said as much.
But he ain't just OUR problem, this hoo-rah headfirst shit we're known for is less effective than linking arms with our allies, and so far so good on that respect.
As for his people, there's a long difference between supporting someone elses revolt, and startin one, given how that worked out in regard to Operation Ajax, among others, the latter has a tendancy to come back and bite us on the ass.
Shit, for that matter one need only look as far as the fiasco that is Iraq to realise throwing down some dickheaded tyrant without popular support isn't exactly the great idea it might look like on paper - a good chunk of those folk wish they had Saddam BACK, which fuels my disgust at our pathetic *stupidity* in going in willy-nilly like that, something which you might recall I not only warned folk about, but told well in advance, chapter and verse, EXACTLY how that was gonna go - only to have it shouted down as "crazy talk" by folks like you.
We're part of the world, not it's entirety, and while we should take, and are taking, our place in keepin a lid on puffer fish boy, it's NOT our place to go charging into someone elses country and forcing our will on them no matter how much of an evil prick their leader is, cause in the end that makes us not a whit better.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
But he ain't just OUR problem, this hoo-rah headfirst shit we're known for is less effective than linking arms with our allies, and so far so good on that respect.
If I were seeing any "hoo-rah headfirst shit", maybe I'd see your point. All I see now is the U.N. Security Council considering sanctions, and a multi-national group trying to prevent the export of nukes and missles. The U.S. is a part of these actions, sure, but hardly the only state supporting them. We have deplored North Korea's actions, but so has just about everyone else.
The worst thing we've done to North Korea in the past few years was refusing to hold one-to-one talks with them about denuclearization. If we'd done that, rather than pushing for the Six Party talks that included the folks in the region, then we would have been engaging in the headfirst stuff.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Maybe your "questions" were just too ludicrous to be taken seriously, 6ix.
Deportation is to abortion as fish is to bicycle.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
Explain yourself.
Regardless of what you think about that analogy, illegals should be deported and the borders should be locked up anyhow. We waste billions, and soon to be trillions fighting wars abroad and enforcing our unconstitutional imperialism on the rest of the world, and yet we practically let anyone who wants to come here do so whether it's legal or not.
Rethugs and Demons do this. All they care about is their personal careers, and not the well being of the American people.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Geeze, my concern is we got a long history of doin exactly that, and payin the price - which I hope to hell we don't in this case, and got my fingers crossed in hopes we have FINALLY learned our lesson about that stupid shit...
But I have little faith in a Government that's made that mistake over and over, even when the consequences were bloody obvious from the beginning, so I ain't holdin my breath about it neither.
But... so far, so good.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Maybe your "questions" were just too ludicrous to be taken seriously, 6ix.
Deportation is to abortion as fish is to bicycle.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
Explain yourself.
Regardless of what you think about that analogy, illegals should be deported and the borders should be locked up anyhow. We waste billions, and soon to be trillions fighting wars abroad and enforcing our unconstitutional imperialism on the rest of the world, and yet we practically let anyone who wants to come here do so whether it's legal or not.
Rethugs and Demons do this. All they care about is their personal careers, and not the well being of the American people.
Explain yourself, yourself.
(just funnin' ya)I agree that we need to secure our borders, or at least do a much better job of TRYING to do so. It won't be effective, but at least someone can say they tried, and cover their ass that way. There are so damn many places where you can just walk across our borders (southern OR northern) without so much as a how-do-you-do from anyone around, because there ISN'T anyone around. How do you "secure" something like that? More goons on the borders? More cameras, more electronic surveillance, more Predator drones? Somehow, I don't think you'd be down with either the costs or implications implicit in such actions. Maybe I'm wrong; I *thought* you leaned libertarian/right, but I could be wrong.
'Course, if I were looking to smuggle something truly nasty into this country, I sure as hell wouldn't try to bring it in over the borders to the north and south. Why would I, when any port in this country will not only receive it for me, but also arrange transportation to get it to my door? And it's not as if anyone in Customs is going to find it - after all, around 99% of shipping containers sent in are never inspected.
I'm in the shipping biz, and once you get listed as a "known shipper" on a certain route, it becomes even LESS likely that your stuff is going to be opened or inspected. You'd be stunned at how easy it could be. And if I had that kind of bent, I could likely be a very rich man by importing certain, ahem, unmentionables... I have no interest in doing that, obviously, or you can bet your life I wouldn't be posting about it anywhere online! I do my job, I follow the law and the rules, but if I can see the weaknesses, surely someone else can as well. Hopefully they're on our side, but I'd bet not all of them are.
Mike
ETA: CURSE YOUR PIC LINK IN YOUR SIG!!
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
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We could start by being serious about deporting people AND holding their respective governments accountable for allowing and/or promoting it. Make it their problem. I promise you, you're not going to find any other country in the world that not only doesn't remove illegals, but allows them to protest on our streets for rights and even goes so far to spend taxpayer dollars to supply the cops to keep Citizens from retaliating.
The fact is, our Government says they are here illegally out of one face, yet seemingly does everything in it's power to promote illegal immigration here out of the other face. This goes for Rethugs as much as it does Demons.
If it were me, I'd deport illegals that crossed from the Southern boarder and relocate them in Brazil or maybe even further south.... say Antarctica. Let them live with the Penguins for a while and they'll miss their Homeland so bad when they get off that rock that they'd never want to leave it again.
Even if they tried to come in again, at least it would be a good while until they got back and we had to do send them to the South Pole the second time.
EDIT: It's called putting fear of the consequences of their actions in their minds. Our Government does it to every one of us law abiding citizens everyday. Unfortunately, they overstep those boundaries and continually push the envelope of what is legal action against citizens everyday. Having a seemingly infinite fiat currency under the new Regime doesn't hurt their ability to really bring the pain since among all the jobs being lost today you don't hear about any cops losing their jobs (and if you do it's just PR bullshit since police force numbers have been doing nothing but rising overall since the bailout funds have come pouring in to the bankrupt states).
I'm not even saying that a limited amount of that (putting fear of consequences of personal actions) is a bad thing, even to citizens, because I don't believe that Chaos is a good alternative to totalitarian control. This is why I'm not a flat out Anarchist, because aside from having somebody there to pick up my trash, I do enjoy the fact that I don't feel the need to sleep with my gun under my pillow at night... yet anyways.
They laugh at us now though....
(I tried to find a video of where Carlos Mencia says something along the lines of the "beaners" who have been just waiting at the border for us to turn our heads and after 9/11 they said "HEY BEANERS!!!! COME ON OVER!!!!" afterwards. I'm paraphrasing here, but that's exactly how they feel now since there is no real repercussions to trying to illegally come here).
In this video too, towards the end, he makes a damn good point as well. Mexicans don't want that border closed, so it is in their best interests to keep the terrorists from coming into America from the south.
http://comedians.comedycentral.com/carlos-mencia/videos/carlos-mencia-
--mexican-border
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."
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So, circling back to the North Korea angle, 6ix, what do you suppose would happen if a couple of North Korean "journalists" just HAPPENED to wander across the U.S. border poking around, and then claimed that they had only gotten lost and wandered off their intended path, but were definitely NOT spied?
How do you think they'd be treated by us?
I'm sure Frem has already thought about this, but has anyone ever noticed how frequently our "journalists" seem to "inadvertently" find themselves in hot water in places where they aren't supposed to be? It's supposed to be sacrosanct that the CIA and NSA don't use the cover of journalists to send covert-ops people into hostile territory or hot zones. Or so we're told. It seems to me, though, that that is EXACTLY what they're doing, time and again, and they act like nobody's supposed to know about it. Seems rather sophomoric and more than just a bit amateurish to me...
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, circling back to the North Korea angle, 6ix, what do you suppose would happen if a couple of North Korean "journalists" just HAPPENED to wander across the U.S. border poking around, and then claimed that they had only gotten lost and wandered off their intended path, but were definitely NOT spied?
How do you think they'd be treated by us?
Given what happens to most everyone else who 'wanders' across our borders, they'd probably get free health care, a drivers license, and their kids put in school.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Mikey, that was part of MOCKINGBIRD from the very get-go, and it's not like they ever stop.
Six - I still favor slapping a W-4 in their hand and billin them for taxes as a solution, and rather than penalise the illegals directly other than that, slam the boot down on the shitheels that HIRE them, hard.
See, part of the reason they come here is knowing the glee with which american corporations will hire disposable workers they don't have to treat like people - that's a damn powerful incentive for both, and it's removal would do wonders.
-F
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like everything was perfect when GW was in power
Katrina Holocaust
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