Real World Event Discussions
BOOM!
POSTED BY: whozit
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 14:44
VIEWED: 4728
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Monday, May 25, 2009 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
But less inventive - us americans, we can BUILD some shit, when we try, and we're the best farmers on the planet - maybe if we spent those talents on life instead of death, building solutions instead of weapons, we'd undercut many of the true causes underneath all this violence.
But of course, that requires a social, mental and emotional maturity we neither have, nor are likely to develop with a society wholly built around it's prevention.
At it's end, this is STILL "have bigger club, take your stuff!" - just on a national, rather than personal scale, and we can do better, we OUGHT to do better.
And the sad fact is, no matter what we invent, no matter how far our technology takes us, there's always that wanker at the Pentagon whose very first question will be, "How can we weaponize this?"
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I don't have a problem with the technology or even the weaponization, so much as I do with the employment and application of such things once they are deployed.
Nuke or a club to the back of the head. your just as dead...
but if one can do away with the impulse to swing the club.....
it is there we could all use some advancement.
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:29 AM
Problem with that, Gino - is our entire society is centered around preventing folks from developing that kind of impulse control cause it makes for poor consumers, poor soldiers, and reduces the possibility they might listen to and even believe the ridiculous bullshit spouted by the powers that be in order to keep control.
I work against that society, in every way I can, cause every person who asks themselves "Exactly WHY am I listening to these shitheads ?" is one more victory for humanity, and another step forward in evolving the ways we need to in order to survive and prosper.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Sounds like American foreign policy...
Could be. Does that make a nuclear-armed North Korea any less dangerous? They have less ability to project diplomatic or economic pressure, so they're more likely than the U.S. to go directly to intimidation and blunt force. They've used both before(Before you bust a gut, yes, so has the U.S., but that's really not the issue here). They don't care if large portions of their population die, since they've been starving them to death for years.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And if you wanna go stupid analogies, in this case America is the nutty militia guy with the HUGE arsenal in his basement whining about some guy way down the block daring to own a .38SPL revolver.
Sorry. Crying "But America does it.", no matter how true or false, doesn't give North Korea a free pass.
What would you do about them, Frem?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Although the Russians and Chinese are still calling for talks with North Korea, they may be getting a little nervious about such a wild-card state.
Am I the only one who strangely feels comforted by this idea?
Personally, if I'm going to be afraid of anyone, it's the ones who can recruit human beings and turn them into walking bombs for their God. I don't believe for a second that there is anyone in Korea who is looking to end the world any time soon. It's simply a bargaining tool... a way to get a seat that isn't a joke at the UN.
They haven't, and likely never will own a weapons store like the US, China or Russia have. They do have enough to cause enough problems for everyone else that maybe it's easier just to listen to what they have to say every once in a while.
I'm not an expert about Korea at all. I know really nothing of our problems with them as I'm under 30 and went to public school and never really cared to find out afterwards. If we are to believe that our representatives are being lied to about things like WMDs in Iraq, who really believes that any civillian well read in the Korea conflict really knows any more than I do? You might know more about it than I do....
Personally, I feel better with them armed. The "wildcard" indeed. Just a little more checks and balances in this majorly f-d up world. It's not as if I'm a friend to Russia or China. Hell... I don't trust my own neighbors for the most part, let alone half of a tiny island halfway around the world.
They're sane over there. And if they were for some reason to commit suicide and bomb China or Russia, WWIII wouldn't start unless we foolishly and suicidedly started lobbing bombs their way too.
Seriously... let's keep our focus on the middle east. I'm not a warhawk, and I don't believe we should be there because I don't believe that imperialism is Constitutionally sound, but that's not to say we should ignore a possible threat or dismantle our own defences either.
I hate to sound racist here, but personally I don't think middle easterners should be allowed to live in the US. The only other answer would be to "label" them like the Germans did the Jews in WWII and I'm not down with that.
They should be allowed to sell their possessions and take the money back with them. We should work hard to make their transitions to their home countries as easy as possible. Once there, it is not our problem what happens.
They don't need another 9/11 to justify installing the eye in the sky everywhere that man travels. They've got us believing that anyone with a tan could be a terrorist, yet at the same time they tell us that it's not the ones that live by us. This leaves us in the frozen position of not trusting them deep down, no matter how hard we try to be human and realize that most people individually are not trying to kill us.
So we'll just go with the third option. The one that our leaders have chosen for us now. In order to be politically correct and not remove the question marks, we will just watch everyone all of the time.
Hope you enjoy that anal cavity search for a butt-bomb at the airport Mom. Never know who might be a terrorist.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:10 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As far as M-A-D and other idiocy goes, the only country with enough maturity and balls to cast aside it's nuclear arsenal and be done with the whole bone brained idiocy... is Canada.
Of course, being a Michigander, I am very well acquainted with the fact that as a people and country, they're both more mature and well behaved than we are.
I think this is solely due to the fact that they are parasites by nature. I don't spite Canadians for this at all. They're the little brother of the big bully. They may not have the huge military, the huge federal defect, the huge platform of hypocrisy (telling the whole world how to act while not following those rules themselves), but they do have the benefit of living right next door to Big Scary Brother.
I really think Canada would be a much different nation if we were not here, or even THAT much different if we were a hostile force against them (think Isreal/Pakistan).
Bottom line... you're lucky to be a Canadian today, eh?
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:01 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Sounds like American foreign policy...
Could be. Does that make a nuclear-armed North Korea any less dangerous? They have less ability to project diplomatic or economic pressure, so they're more likely than the U.S. to go directly to intimidation and blunt force. They've used both before(Before you bust a gut, yes, so has the U.S., but that's really not the issue here). They don't care if large portions of their population die, since they've been starving them to death for years.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
The point I was making is either international law, and UN mandates are fair, applied equally and are not ignored by anyone, or they simply cannot be applied at all. In other threads particularly those dealing with the Iraq war, much has been said about having to enforce international law, and the weakness of the UN not being able to do it.
As for Korea, President Roh Moo-hyun's sunshine policy of engagement was likely to bear some fruit down the line, and the deal Clinton had made was working to some degree.
Direct confrontation with North Korea has always only resulted in them getting their backs up, the more bluster and attack in the media ( axis of evil, etc ) the less they will listen to anyone.
Without an external threat, I think North Korea would eventually have the change everyone seems to desire, they cannot afford to maintain their forces and or their economic output the way they have, war at this point ( even with nukes ) is unwinable.
Kim will eventually die, the way to end this is to try to generate to conditions where a more moderate government could succeed him. Rattling sabres and making threats will not do that.
Containment, then engagement. And the South Koreans and the Chinese have to lead the way there, the US doesn't have enough credibility to achieve anything in the way directly.
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 2:08 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As far as M-A-D and other idiocy goes, the only country with enough maturity and balls to cast aside it's nuclear arsenal and be done with the whole bone brained idiocy... is Canada.
Of course, being a Michigander, I am very well acquainted with the fact that as a people and country, they're both more mature and well behaved than we are.
I think this is solely due to the fact that they are parasites by nature. I don't spite Canadians for this at all. They're the little brother of the big bully. They may not have the huge military, the huge federal defect, the huge platform of hypocrisy (telling the whole world how to act while not following those rules themselves), but they do have the benefit of living right next door to Big Scary Brother.
I really think Canada would be a much different nation if we were not here, or even THAT much different if we were a hostile force against them (think Isreal/Pakistan).
Bottom line... you're lucky to be a Canadian today, eh?
The only external threat Canada has ever had, was and is the US.
We could never win a war with the US force on force, if it ever happened we would have to resort to a guerrilla campaign, that the US would label as terrorism....
Mind you it would be white guys who speak your lingo and understand your culture doing it...
" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson
Lets party like its 1939
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:15 PM
Quote:
What would you do about them, Frem?
Well, one, I would quit being an absolute utter dumbass and quit with the macho bullshit saber rattling which is what keeps dickheads like that guy in power by giving them a convenient external enemy to unify their people against - it's just freakin asking for it, kept Castro in power for years, helped Chavez climb the tide, etc etc.
Secondly, I would quit denying reality and encourage responsible development in that area, now that folks know they have the capability, fine, dandy, let em know the point is made and THEN point out how much more benefit that material would be as a power plant instead of national dick-waving, not that someone like him will listen, but with *any* country there's other folk at the top a little more amenable to reason, and if we remove the external threat to rail against, all he's got left is south korea, which frankly even his own people know isn't any real kinda threat at all.
If you stop POKING the puffer-fish, eventually it deflates, yanno.
Cause that's seriously what this guy and his policies put me to mind of, trying to appear bigger and scarier so him and his country don't get swallowed up by a bigger fish, is all.
That's the thing our gunboat diplomacy fails to address, is that we got a carrot AND a stick, why not propose the idea of joining the big boys instead of fighting them, and here's what you gotta do to get your share of the pie...
Offer support and trade with other nations in proportional exchange for cutting some civil rights slack to his people, and leave disarmament off the table (cause that will just provoke em and make em all too rightfully suspicious) until we get that trade hook set good and deep and their economy becomes dependant on it.
THEN the stick, Geeze, but gently applied in a fashion that shows em how much *more* benefit playin nice with the other kids in the sandbox will be.
And frankly, I'm appalled that people we pay ludicrous sums to money to do this stuff are so mentally inflexible and intolerant that cannot see the obvious path before them, but then, that's been the case for far too damn long anyhow.
Do a little history research into how our original trade "negotiations" have gone off with them, and how we acted about it, and you'll find they got a fairly legit beef about our own behavior as regards the matter, and feeding their paranoia about our intentions is a damn stupid thing to do when you take that into account.
So, offer the carrot, but keep the stick handy.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
The point I was making is either international law, and UN mandates are fair, applied equally and are not ignored by anyone, or they simply cannot be applied at all. In other threads particularly those dealing with the Iraq war, much has been said about having to enforce international law, and the weakness of the UN not being able to do it.
As for Korea, President Roh Moo-hyun's sunshine policy of engagement was likely to bear some fruit down the line, and the deal Clinton had made was working to some degree.
Direct confrontation with North Korea has always only resulted in them getting their backs up, the more bluster and attack in the media ( axis of evil, etc ) the less they will listen to anyone.
Without an external threat, I think North Korea would eventually have the change everyone seems to desire, they cannot afford to maintain their forces and or their economic output the way they have, war at this point ( even with nukes ) is unwinable.
Kim will eventually die, the way to end this is to try to generate to conditions where a more moderate government could succeed him. Rattling sabres and making threats will not do that.
Containment, then engagement. And the South Koreans and the Chinese have to lead the way there, the US doesn't have enough credibility to achieve anything in the way directly.
Bingo. Countries who don't feel like listening to the UN have an easy decision: Don't listen. Ignore the UN, as the US routinely does.
Meanwhile, threats and bluster against North Korea have been exactly as effective as they've been against Castro's Cuba - which is to say, not at all, from the US's point of view, and VERY effective, from Castro's and Kim's points of view. How so? Easy - we give them a very dangerous external enemy to hold up in front of a frightened, propagandized populace, which doesn't make them weaker, but instead makes them STRONGER. By opposing them so vociferously, we only legitimize their tyranny in the eyes of their people.
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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