Is it such a bad thing?
POSTED BY: AngusThermopyle
UPDATED: Thursday, February 3, 2005 19:40
VIEWED: 22168
PAGE 1 of 1
I love Firefly. I love the whole idea of it. I love the fact that there are no weird looking aliens to remind you it's only a sci-fi TV show.
I have only just bought the DVD set and it was my first time seeing it. T'was exceedingly good. I'd recently borrowed all my girlfriend's Buffy sets and watched all seven series, back to back.
The reason I mention that, is because after watching Firefly I wondered where it might've ended up if it had been given the go-ahead to continue for another six series. Well, if Buffy is anything to go by - and Angel according to friends (I haven't seen series 5) - then I'd have to say I'm kind of glad it remains perfect and unspoiled.
I think Joss has a tendency to become preachy and somewhat patronising. Buffy was the perfect example: It started out as a fun, hip, show and ended up as some feminist propoganda thing. I'm not sure if this was Joss' intention, but that's what I and my girlfriend got. Any woman who refers to herself or other women as godesses is pretentious and slightly suspect in my opinion lol.
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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Oh no no no no no no no NO.
Coming here and posting that Joss is preachy and pretentious is NOT of the good. Please. ABSORB what you've seen. Look under the layers, listen to the voices of the characters.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is one of, if not THE best television show to ever grace the airwaves.
Read up. Listen further, LOOK further.
Above all, do not bash The Joss here.
"Once, in flight school, I was laconic..."
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Angus, don't worry, Willowy is just pulling your leg. Go ahead and speak your mind, we Browncoats are made of stern stuff and you can probably expeect a tussle.
Can Joss be preachy and pretentious? Yeah.
Artsy-fartsy? Yup.
Silly. Scary. Downright baffling (you're a Thermopyle, you should like that!).
Thrilling, surprising, engrossing, geeky, sauve, shocking, moving. Uh-huh, all those things.
Boring? Never.
Now to the point, Is it so bad that there was only one year of Firefly?
My answer has to be an unequivocal yes. Making a second season wouldn't change what they already accomplished. This is one of those moral absolutes;
More Firefly == Good, Less Firefly == Evil
Maybe you can answer your own question, though. Are you gonna see our BDH in September?
Yeah, I know that you will 
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
Buffy was the perfect example: It started out as a fun, hip, show and ended up as some feminist propoganda thing.
Are you taking the piss or are you for real?
-------------------------------
Are these our lives? NNNOOOOOO!!!
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Welcome, AngusThermopyle, iconoclast 
Unlike you, I am unable to comment on the whole Whedon opus but appreciate the refreshing lack of adoration in your view.
I am sure that Firefly would have remained vigorous for several seasons, but I agree that the nascent quality of the existing episodes are a large part of their appeal to me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
...but I agree that the nascent quality of the existing episodes are a large part of their appeal to me.
I always knew there was a reason you're called PurpleBelly
Naw, I gotta agree, there's something to what you all are saying. Still, it's right there in the scriptures,
More Firefly == Good, Less Firefly == Evil
Hard to argue with that logic.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Willowy:
[Above all, do not bash The Joss here.
I really do love the show, and would love to see more; however, the question is valid. Discussion forum, you see?
How sad is it when people answer messageboards using the vernacular of a TV show? Would've swore at you in Mandarin, but I don't speak it, unfortunately.
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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I love Buffy. But youve got a good point.
I mean what if Joss had chosen to blow up Serenity at the end of Season 3?
PsychicRiver
"Two by two, hands of blue." 
"We can take care of each other. I'll knit!"
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Keep in mind (yes, I'm saying that again), keep in mind thatJoss was NOT the ONLY driving force behind Buffy in later seasons. He was the executive producer, but had Angel and Firefly at the same time, plus other various projects like Fray and such. Other personages had more or less taken over the wheel for the last part of Buffy, and yes, it DID get a little heavy handed at times, and Buffy herself got a bit over the top in the speechifying department.
But Joss himself had a lot less to do with Buffy in the later seasons than most people realize--much like Gene Roddenberry and Star Trek, other people were in charge.
--Jefé The Hat
***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne
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Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
Keep in mind (yes, I'm saying that again), keep in mind thatJoss was NOT the ONLY driving force behind Buffy in later seasons. He was the executive producer, but had Angel and Firefly at the same time, plus other various projects like Fray and such. Other personages had more or less taken over the wheel for the last part of Buffy, and yes, it DID get a little heavy handed at times, and Buffy herself got a bit over the top in the speechifying department.
But Joss himself had a lot less to do with Buffy in the later seasons than most people realize--much like Gene Roddenberry and Star Trek, other people were in charge.
--Jefé The Hat
***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)
"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne
There is another point I'd like to make re the latter Buffy series. It started off with good against evil and ended up with evil fighting evil. You could make the "fight fire with fire" argument, but then you just get a bloody great big fire. It's a shame he didn't keep a tighter rein on it; but having said that, he wouldn't've let it happen if he wasn't satisfied, so he must've felt the same way. Either that or he didn't care so much with having his other projects.
I haven't seen the final series of Angel yet - the previous have been excellent, especially 2 - but friends who have said they were disappointed. I'm waiting for my girlfriend to get the DVDs when they come out next month (region 2).
The sleeper must awaken. Duke Leto Atriedes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
I haven't seen the final series of Angel yet - the previous have been excellent, especially 2 - but friends who have said they were disappointed. I'm waiting for my girlfriend to get the DVDs when they come out next month (region 2).
In my opinion, seasons 1 to 3 are great, 4 is the letdown, and 5 is something of a last resurgence before the lights go out :) Even if you end up not liking the majority of it, there are still a few essential episodes that need to be seen.
And I agree about the slide of Buffy, perhaps not so much to do with 'feminist propaganda' but just a lack of real direction or subtlety.
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Actually I think you make a very good point. Buffy and even Angel to some extent took a nose dive as the series continued on. This is to be expected with any series really. There's only so far a group of characters can go before the stories become forced. Maybe the same would be true with Firefly.
Though even with a pretty good nose dive Firefly would still be one of if not the best show on tv today.
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To the over-protective Joss fans: lighten up! :smiles: Since when has FFF.net required every poster to blindly preach the Gospel of Whedon? Joss is a big boy and doesn't need you to jump all over anyone who offers a constructive (if strongly-worded) criticism. I'm sure even Jossage himself would admit that not everything he touches turns to gold. Dissenting opinions, where they're not simply the work of trolls, are natural and useful. This forum would be very dull if no-one ever challenged us...
To AngusThermopyle: I agree with you on Buffy - I loathed season 6 so much I couldn't even bring myself to watch 7. Not so much because of 'feminist propaganda', however - unless by that you mean its shamefully sidelining of all the male characters bar Spike (who himself only got screentime when he lost his shirt, it seemed). More the humourless dirge part.
*ducks flames*
Couldn't say re. Angel - have only seen 1-3 thus far, and adored it for the most part.
All that said/written, it seems to me that being grateful Firefly got canned just in case its quality dipped is unfounded pessimism at its silliest. (So I'm going to counter it with a desperately silly analogy...) It's a bit like being glad you've had your legs amputated, because at least now you can't cross any roads and perhaps get hit by a car. More seriously, wouldn't you have liked to see what happened, rather than second-guessing the show's development based on what has gone before?
BTW... good choice of name, particularly given your apparent propensity for stirring. 
/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /
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Quote:
Originally posted by PsychicRiver:
I love Buffy. But youve got a good point.
I mean what if Joss had chosen to blow up Serenity at the end of Season 3?
What, just after Mal's son had been killed by those Klingon bastards?
"I threw up on your bed"
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AngusThermopyle wrote:
Quote:
I really do love the show, and would love to see more; however, the question is valid. Discussion forum, you see?
How sad is it when people answer messageboards using the vernacular of a TV show? Would've swore at you in Mandarin, but I don't speak it, unfortunately.
Okay. I'm gonna take things a little further, and then hopefully draw them back in again, into a tidy little bundle.
I watched a couple of single episodes of BtVS and Angel. I never liked them. SMG gives me a rash, as does James Marsters. My teenage daughter loves these shows, which is how I wound up watching them at all. They never appealed to me. Maybe it's something to do with the prosthetics or all the farcical machinations with daylight and stakes, and evil characters becoming the good guys, etc.
When Firefly first hit the small screen on Friday nights at 7 PM in my locality, I thought, 'Cool. Something to watch before Farscape', which frankly had lost its appeal when Zhaan left. Virgina Hey was the only reason I originally watched that series, due to a lasting crush on her since "The Road Warrior". Farscape started getting wackier and she left, and I lost a lot of my interest in the show, which I had come to fully enjoy.
Then I catch the first episode of Firefly and, bam! I am hooked. And I'll be honest, I gave the show a look because of Morena Baccarin. But by the end of the first episode I was hooked because of the dialog and Wash and Zoe's relationship. It was and continues to be one of the best TV depictions ever of the give-and-take of married life. On top of that, my wife's name is Kayley. I didn't stand a chance...
I watched every episode, taking care to check my listings, so I wouldn't miss an episode due to displacement by MLB playoffs. When F*x showed the 2-hour episode, I was in hog heaven. This show was so great, and the '2-hour event' only proved it, and F*x's dedication to the show. Yippee!
Next week, there was no episode, and none the week after; but, it was NFL playoff season by then, and I just figured F*x didn't have room for it right then: It'd be back.
As the weeks drug on into a month, I started going into withdrawal, and went to the 'Net looking to see what was up, when the next episode was going to air. That was when I found out F*x had cancelled it. I was literally devastated. Forlorn. How could a merciful God allow something of such beauty to be so callously taken from me? (Yeah, it was childish, but I couldn't help feeling betrayed.)
About three months after its cancellation, I started hanging out on alt.tv.firefly and talking to others who felt the same way. It was at that point that I learned Joss Whedon was the show's creator, and that he had created BtVS and Angel. I downloaded all the eps -- including ones never shown in the U.S. -- and if anything I felt worse, more angry.
Then somebody turned me on to FFFn and I've been here ever since. Like group therapy...
Would I have eventually soured on the show? Who can say? I frankly have never been keen on River being psychic. It smacks too much of Buffyverse to me. Especially since I think her 'insight' could be explained much more satisfyingly by conventional means. Remember "Rain Man"? Raymond takes one glance at the spilled matches and can tell you how many there are; he can remember all the cards that have been dealt at blackjack. Is he psychic? No. He just perceives the world differently than other humans. In one scene, it is explained that people think autism means being cut off from reality; but, it is further explained, in fact he senses more of the world's stimuli than we do, not less. When Simon diagnoses River's condition, he says something similar: She senses too much, "she can't not".
Apparently, it's set in stone. River's psychic. I don't like it but, hey, I've learned enough about Joss' talents to believe the storytelling will still be compelling.
Which brings me to my main point: I didn't like Joss' previous works; but I bel
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Zoid, you don't think you're better than EVERYone! Just the folks you're better than! Sheesh. Why do I gotta keep 'splainin' this?
Mal-licious
Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell
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Quote:
Originally posted by NicolaClarke:
To the over-protective Joss fans: lighten up! :smiles: Since when has FFF.net required every poster to blindly preach the Gospel of Whedon? Joss is a big boy and doesn't need you to jump all over anyone who offers a constructive (if strongly-worded) criticism. I'm sure even Jossage himself would admit that not everything he touches turns to gold. Dissenting opinions, where they're not simply the work of trolls, are natural and useful. This forum would be very dull if no-one ever challenged us...
To AngusThermopyle: I agree with you on Buffy - I loathed season 6 so much I couldn't even bring myself to watch 7. Not so much because of 'feminist propaganda', however - unless by that you mean its shamefully sidelining of all the male characters bar Spike (who himself only got screentime when he lost his shirt, it seemed). More the humourless dirge part.
*ducks flames*
Couldn't say re. Angel - have only seen 1-3 thus far, and adored it for the most part.
All that said/written, it seems to me that being grateful Firefly got canned just in case its quality dipped is unfounded pessimism at its silliest. (So I'm going to counter it with a desperately silly analogy...) It's a bit like being glad you've had your legs amputated, because at least now you can't cross any roads and perhaps get hit by a car.
BTW... good choice of name, particularly given your apparent propensity for stirring.
/ pure intentions, juxtaposed /
Hi Nicola,
Firstly, thanks for your comments, which were interesting. I have to say that you were wise not to watch Buffy 7 as it far more annoying than 6. Series 7 was where the feminist line really kicked in bigtime. I won't say more than that as you may watch it someday and don't want to do a spoiler.
Secondly, on Firefly, I was asking a question, not making a statement. I'd love to see more. It's the best sci-fi show in years, and with crap like Enterprise about it really does come into sharp relief with it's excellent dialogue, great plots and humour.
I wouldn't have killed to see what happens lol, but I'd love to know what Book's background really is ("He aint no shepherd"), what happens with River and the Blue Sun Corp, I'd also like to see how Joss deals with the fine balance of Mal and Inara's relationship (which would be difficult to carry the momentum without becoming sadistic).
Thirdly, I didn't start this thread to stir, merely wondered what other people thought about it. Couldn't find out if I didn't ask.
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
AngusThermopyle wrote:Quote:
I really do love the show, and would love to see more; however, the question is valid. Discussion forum, you see?
How sad is it when people answer messageboards using the vernacular of a TV show? Would've swore at you in Mandarin, but I don't speak it, unfortunately.
Okay. I'm gonna take things a little further, and then hopefully draw them back in again, into a tidy little bundle.
I watched a couple of single episodes of BtVS and Angel. I never liked them. SMG gives me a rash, as does James Marsters. My teenage daughter loves these shows, which is how I wound up watching them at all. They never appealed to me. Maybe it's something to do with the prosthetics or all the farcical machinations with daylight and stakes, and evil characters becoming the good guys, etc.
When Firefly first hit the small screen on Friday nights at 7 PM in my locality, I thought, 'Cool. Something to watch before Farscape', which frankly had lost its appeal when Zhaan left. Virgina Hey was the only reason I originally watched that series, due to a lasting crush on her since "The Road Warrior". Farscape started getting wackier and she left, and I lost a lot of my interest in the show, which I had come to fully enjoy.
Then I catch the first episode of Firefly and, bam! I am hooked. And I'll be honest, I gave the show a look because of Morena Baccarin. But by the end of the first episode I was hooked because of the dialog and Wash and Zoe's relationship. It was and continues to be one of the best TV depictions ever of the give-and-take of married life. On top of that, my wife's name is Kayley. I didn't stand a chance...
I watched every episode, taking care to check my listings, so I wouldn't miss an episode due to displacement by MLB playoffs. When F*x showed the 2-hour episode, I was in hog heaven. This show was so great, and the '2-hour event' only proved it, and F*x's dedication to the show. Yippee!
Next week, there was no episode, and none the week after; but, it was NFL playoff season by then, and I just figured F*x didn't have room for it right then: It'd be back.
As the weeks drug on into a month, I started going into withdrawal, and went to the 'Net looking to see what was up, when the next episode was going to air. That was when I found out F*x had cancelled it. I was literally devastated. Forlorn. How could a merciful God allow something of such beauty to be so callously taken from me? (Yeah, it was childish, but I couldn't help feeling betrayed.)
About three months after its cancellation, I started hanging out on alt.tv.firefly and talking to others who felt the same way. It was at that point that I learned Joss Whedon was the show's creator, and that he had created BtVS and Angel. I downloaded all the eps -- including ones never shown in the U.S. -- and if anything I felt worse, more angry.
Then somebody turned me on to FFFn and I've been here ever since. Like group therapy...
Would I have eventually soured on the show? Who can say? I frankly have never been keen on River being psychic. It smacks too much of Buffyverse to me. Especially since I think her 'insight' could be explained much more satisfyingly by conventional means. Remember "Rain Man"? Raymond takes one glance at the spilled matches and can tell you how many there are; he can remember all the cards that have been dealt at blackjack. Is he psychic? No. He just perceives the world differently than other humans. In one scene, it is explained that people think autism means being cut off from reality; but, it is further explained, in fact he senses more of the world's stimuli than we do, not less. When Simon diagnoses River's condition, he says something similar: She senses too much, "she can't not".
Apparently, it's set in stone. River's psychic. I don't like it but, hey, I've learned enough about Joss' talents to believe the storytelling will still be compelling.
Which brings me to my main point: I didn'NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Wow, so much Buffy bashing. Angus, I'm just curious. Do you prefer stories that slide women to the sidelines and let the men do all the fighting? Flip it around and imagine that all the main characters were men and the women were the sidekicks. Nobody would even notice. The feminism is what made that show such an unusual thing when it came out, and as a woman, I was thrilled to see a female hero who didn't have to be an angry butch lesbian to get the job done.
Heroes don't always wear white hats, and villains aren't evil for no reason. Buffy explored this in a way few shows or even movies have ever dared. But perhaps it's a difference in perspective. Some people like their stories black and white. I love it when I'm not sure who the bad guy is. Buffy, and especially Angel, excelled in that kind of thinking.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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I agree, although I also agree that series 7 of BtVS and 4 of Angel were not as good as the earlier ones. They lacked the wicked ability to poke fun at themselves and the ironies and hypocrasies of the universe that so attracted me in the beginning. The better episodes explore the big questions in the interactions between characters and the situations they find themselves in. I figure preaching happens when the writers are unable to get their point across in any other way. It's always better when they show rather than tell, because that allows the audience to feel as though they are forming their own opinion, even if they're having their hand held while doing it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Wow, so much Buffy bashing. Angus, I'm just curious. Do you prefer stories that slide women to the sidelines and let the men do all the fighting? Flip it around and imagine that all the main characters were men and the women were the sidekicks. Nobody would even notice. The feminism is what made that show such an unusual thing when it came out, and as a woman, I was thrilled to see a female hero who didn't have to be an angry butch lesbian to get the job done.
Heroes don't always wear white hats, and villains aren't evil for no reason. Buffy explored this in a way few shows or even movies have ever dared. But perhaps it's a difference in perspective. Some people like their stories black and white. I love it when I'm not sure who the bad guy is. Buffy, and especially Angel, excelled in that kind of thinking.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
No, Maugwai, not a bit of it. My girlfriend and I were just having a very similar discussion about the whole feminist issues that seem to come up on TV and in the other media formats that, strangely, never come up as conflicts in our real daily lives. We were postulating about Mal and Inara and how that could pan out. Obviously if the did get together, which they obviously both want, Mal would of course want not wish Inara to continue with her current career. Being a TV show and fearing to be different (i.e. continuing the p.c. tradition, Inara would probably have a problem with that; but why? If you love someone you find compromises and it isn't a great conflict. I'm not only talking about the woman compromising either. You do what it takes to have the best chance of being together. Being together should become the only caviat. Don't you think?
I know of no-one who thought that the feminism issue interesting or appealing. In fact, the all seem to have found it pretty annoying. And they are 90% women. Feminism isn't really real life, but because people are so influenced by the media, they think it is.
I'd go so far as to say, feminism has done a lot of harm to society, especially in families. I'm all for women being respected and honoured. I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't really mean anything. I support my girlfriend however I can - I'm talking emotionally here, not financial. She is my equal.
And, Buffy did have to have a lesbian in it, she just wasn't butch lol. She was kind of willowy really. That whole lesbian, wicca, godess thing was pretty grating! Shame coz Willow was one of my favourite characters. I liked her ironic, intelligent, nerdy charm.
Hey, who thinks that Wash, is Xander?
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
SMG gives me a rash, as does James Marsters.
Is this the new poster line for the STD campaign?
Got milk? Oh for the ability to photoshop....
"I threw up on your bed"
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
I know of no-one who thought that the feminism issue interesting or appealing. In fact, the all seem to have found it pretty annoying. And they are 90% women. Feminism isn't really real life, but because people are so influenced by the media, they think it is.
I'd go so far as to say, feminism has done a lot of harm to society, especially in families. I'm all for women being respected and honoured. I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't really mean anything. I support my girlfriend however I can - I'm talking emotionally here, not financial. She is my equal.
I love this random, made-up statistic you've got there. 90% of what? Your girlfriend, your mom and your sister?
When the Taliban was in power, women who were raped were stoned to death for committing adultery.
In Thailand, as soon as poor girls hit puberty they are sold into sex slavery, often to Chinese husbands. Those Chinese men often exist only because their parents aborted their sisters, since they are only allowed to have one child and girls are undesirable.
In Nigeria, women are castrated to prevent them from enjoying sex, and therefore making adultery unlikely.
And in Europe, America, and every other place on earth, Wives and daughters are still beaten daily. In my class, the women who aren't virgins are chastized as sluts but the boys are applauded as players. And this is after great improvements all over the world. We can vote now. There is a whole world of people outside your house.
Buffy encourages girls to look at themselves as powerful figures, not to be abused or looked on as meek supporters of their male counterparts.
So now you know one person who thinks the feminist issue is interesting and appealing. It's really a shame you don't know more.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
I love Firefly. I love the whole idea of it. ...
I have only just bought the DVD set and it was my first time seeing it. T'was exceedingly good. I'd recently borrowed all my girlfriend's Buffy sets and watched all seven series, back to back....if Buffy is anything to go by - and Angel according to friends (I haven't seen series 5) - then I'd have to say I'm kind of glad it remains perfect and unspoiled...
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
I don' know. I'm a Firefly Fan not necessarily a Joss Fan. For the sake of discussion let's say you're right. They say that the third time's the charm. Judging by the quality of Heart of Gold,Trash and the script for Dead or Alive, all episodes not aired during the show's abbreeviated run, I think Firefly would have gotten better with age.
edited for formatting
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Feminism doesn't exist in real life? Maybe not, sexism does though. I have to agree with maugwai here. Looking outside of this society women are getting beaten, killed, raped and mamed because they are female. Maugwai talked about Nigeria, I know there are countries in Africa where they perform female genital mutilation, meaning cutting parts of the genitalia and sewing it up leaving enough room to urinate thereby making intercourse so ungodly painful that they don't look at anyone of the opposite sex. Oh, and this procedure happens before puberty. Not sure if that's what Maugwi was talking about.
Luckily most countries aren't so blantant in their sexism, but there's still many stereotypes that aren't going anywhere. I can't go to Thanksgiving dinner at my grandparent's place without some kind of suggestion that I should be in the kitchen. I went to a wedding about a year ago where the entire message was that the man was the leader/protector and the woman was the follower. I'm not kidding when I say that part of the message was literally, "you should make sure to tell her she's beautiful even when she's covered in flour, and EVEN if she's 9 months pregnant" but my favorite was "the man has a difficult job as the leader, but the women's even more difficult as she needs to be patient. If the man isn't leading as fast as you may think he should you need to wait and trust he'll do his job." This is in MN, one of the most liberal states in the nation.
Sexism exist, here and around the world.
As far as feminism in Buffy, yes it is about women being chosen to save the planet. There's a pro-women feel to it, kind of the point, but I guess you're going to have to point it to me as to how season 6 and 7 are any more feminist in nature than the rest. Now, I'm not saying that there wasn't downward turn in season 6 and 7, I was turned off by most of six (loved the musical evil Willow) but the most mortem depression drove me nuts. Season 7 got a little better, but not as good as the first 3. Personally my rating best to worse would be 2,3,1,5,7,4,6. Angel was turned off when they were exploring the "love" between Angel and Cordelia.
But going back to where this thread began (after all this ranting) what Angel and Buffy lacked as compared to Firefly is mystery. Especially in Buffy the characters were right there, you knew who they were and where they came from. Granted Joss' writing is awesome, which gave them depth but there growth came from where they were going not in where they came from. Firefly had the potential to explore so much more of the characters because we don't have so much, especially the secrets that both Book and Inara hold. The whole Blue Sun corporation, the Reavers, just about everything that was in that verse could be dealt with. I'll agree with Zoid that Joss matured as a writer for a TV show, but he also had a certain level of confidence that he didn't have with Buffy. He was able to look into the future of this show believing that he had more than a half of a season. With Buffy it was hard to believe that a TV show based on a failed movie would have any sort of longevity (who knew that it would be reversed- Buffy got 7, Firefly got a half) but with Buffy he didn't start thinking much ahead until season 3.
Anywho, just my thoughts.
Kaylee: Wash, tell me I'm pretty
Wash: Were I unwed I would take you in a manly fashion
Kaylee: 'Cause I'm pretty?
Wash: 'Cause you're pretty
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Quote:
I love this random, made-up statistic you've got there. 90% of what? Your girlfriend, your mom and your sister?Quote:
That was pretty cheap. Of course I meant 90% of the people I know... Did I get you so
Are you so naive that you think that beaten women would be allowed to watch such episodes of Buffy? You think they'd say to themselves: "Of course, I've had all those years of martial arts training. I'd forgotten about that..."
I know about those countries you mentioned. Probably a lot more than you do. In most cases you're talking about Islamic regimes that I knew were carrying out these sorts of atrocities long before it became common knowledge. I grew up in the middle east. I also know that everyday men and women are falsly accused of blasphemy for merely saying what they believe (if they aren't Muslim, or convert).
To women and children who are being abused, Buffy will have little or no effect on their lives. That job belongs to you and me. Why does everyone expect TV to educate and change things? We had the most shocking TV ad. at Christmas against drink driving. Who do you think the people this ad had the most impact on? People who didn't drink and drive, of course?
We let TV educate and entertain our kids coz we have things we'd rather be doing. History is taught by Hollywood, morals by Buffy? That would be a very bad thing. You think young girls saw Buffy in a very bad relationship with Spike or Willow get so powerful using the Occult and say: "Oh right, those are bad things"? Of course not. Girls want to be in sexual relationships with Spike, coz he's powerful and a bastard. Since Buffy, Charmed, Sabrina etc, the amount of teenage girls getting into the occult and black magic has gone through the roof. Is that a positive influence?
Yep, I know one person who thinks the feminist issue was interesting and appealing now. Probably a white, middle-classed and liberal?
This world needs people who are willing to give up their time to do something about the issues you raised.
So, you are obviously infuriated about these injustices abroad and in your own country... Yes? What are you doing about it?
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Quote:
Originally posted by dacute1:
Feminism doesn't exist in real life? Maybe not, sexism does though. I have to agree with maugwai here. Looking outside of this society women are getting beaten, killed, raped and mamed because they are female. Maugwai talked about Nigeria, I know there are countries in Africa where they perform female genital mutilation, meaning cutting parts of the genitalia and sewing it up leaving enough room to urinate thereby making intercourse so ungodly painful that they don't look at anyone of the opposite sex. Oh, and this procedure happens before puberty. Not sure if that's what Maugwi was talking about....
Anywho, just my thoughts.
Aren't ism's so very popular? I'm sure you agree with Maugwai. Female circumcision is certainly practiced in many African and Islamist cultures. I'm sorry, making intercourse so ungodly painful? You do know what it's used for right? To stop intercourse. It doesn't so much make it painful as impossible.
I refer you to my answer to Maugwi for other issues as it's really early in the morning here.
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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I certainly didn't find the feminism annoying. I consider myself a feminist, although not one who feels a uniform is necessary in order to identify myself as one. I always enjoyed the fact that both good guys and bad guys in Buffy, Angel and Firefly were women, and women who thoroughly enjoyed being women too. I was slightly annoyed by the Wiccan stereotype lesbians in Buffy, though I felt Willow and Tara's relationship was well handled - as a relationship that happened to be between two women, with all of the usual difficulties that any relationship faces. I felt there was no particular feminist message in their relationship, although naturally the simple fact that they were lesbians equated it with feminism (which is unusual for Joss, he doesn't' usually succumb to stereotypes without pointing out that they're stereotypes first). I believe there was a stronger feminist message in Buffy's several (hetero) sexual partners and obvious enjoyment of sex, and that is again presented in the character of Inara. The truth of the matter is that women are still viewed as either virgins or whores wherever you are on the planet, and the fact that these two strong, female characters explore this social reality - Inara most pointedly - is much more feminist in its intent than Willow and Tara's relationship. (grin) Hope that doesn't put you off Firefly now, Angus.
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If feminism means pro women, then count me as one.
If it means anti something, I don't really like to exclude people, so...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nkyjay:
I certainly didn't find the feminism annoying. I consider myself a feminist, although not one who feels a uniform is necessary in order to identify myself as one. I always enjoyed the fact that both good guys and bad guys in Buffy, Angel and Firefly were women, and women who thoroughly enjoyed being women too. I was slightly annoyed by the Wiccan stereotype lesbians in Buffy, though I felt Willow and Tara's relationship was well handled - as a relationship that happened to be between two women, with all of the usual difficulties that any relationship faces. I felt there was no particular feminist message in their relationship, although naturally the simple fact that they were lesbians equated it with feminism (which is unusual for Joss, he doesn't' usually succumb to stereotypes without pointing out that they're stereotypes first). I believe there was a stronger feminist message in Buffy's several (hetero) sexual partners and obvious enjoyment of sex, and that is again presented in the character of Inara. The truth of the matter is that women are still viewed as either virgins or whores wherever you are on the planet, and the fact that these two strong, female characters explore this social reality - Inara most pointedly - is much more feminist in its intent than Willow and Tara's relationship. (grin) Hope that doesn't put you off Firefly now, Angus.
Not a chance, NkyJay. I love Firefly and was a fan of BTVS and Angel. I think FF is one of the best Sci-Fi series I've ever seen.
I honour women, like them and respect them, but I'm no feminist. I like people, no matter what the sex. I don't like labels.
The thing I guess that annoyed me most about Buffy was how self-indulgent it got. It started out as a bright, funny and witty series and kind of went up its own politically correct
I thought the whole lesbian wicca thing wasn't terribly stereotypical at all. The amount of personal web sites I've seen on the net by women going on about godesses, Avalon, wicca and all that stuff is astounding. They always tend to have pretentious, self-indulgent poetry with awful symbolism too
I prefered Angel, but am waiting for my girlfriend to get the final series. I was a little concerned about the whole Cordy becoming a demon issue though.
It occurs to me that there's a certain amount of hypocracy when it comes to supernatural TV series. For example, when Willow etc, pulled Buffy out of Heaven - later she was having a conversation with a vamp, and he asked if there was any movement on the God issue. She said there wasn't. Who was in Heaven then? What is it she wears round her neck? What does she splash on vamps to burn them? It seems that God has no place in TV, only demons. I guess he just isn't cool enough in the minds of writers.
I think this may have to be my last post on this particular thread. It's gotten far too long and three or four people have missunderstood it. One has even taken it so much to heart (not sure that's the right organ though), that she's taken it upon herself to save all you delicate people and try to get me banned from fireflyfans.
Sad but true. I can still be messaged of course. I'm just gonna leave this thread now because it takes sooooo long to load the page. Must be about 20 feet long. However, I'm going nowhere, unless of course I'm forced to. And if that happens to be the case I won't be too broken hearted about it. It wouldn't be worth sticking around for.
To all those who joined me in entering into a discussion, I'd like to say thanks. I really enjoyed reading your comments. To those who took offence or got pissed about it. I'm sorry you feel that way, and maybe you shouldn't take a (great though it is) TV quite so seriously. Just enjoy it for what it is, great entertainment.
Regards to ALL.
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Bon voyage, Angus, pity it's under less-than-happy circumstances. May your chocolates never have unfortunate fillings.
It would be good if 'feminist' stood simply for being pro-women, but like so many other things, it's often assumed you can't be pro-something without being anti-something else. Isn't it funny how the further left or right you go, the more likely you are to end up meeting in the middle? That's something I always liked in Joss' shows, the number of times that happened. So, who's side were you on again?
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Wow, Angus. You said in your other thread that enjoy stirring things up. So you came here and stirred things up, and when people disagreed with you, you took it personally, made personal attacks and ran for the door.
It seems like you think television should have no meaning because the right people don't watch it or something, or maybe because people shoudn't be watching TV because they should be out saving the world? I didn't really get where you were going with that since you are posting to a fansite for a show you keep saying you like.
As for what I do to help, I belong to UNICEF. I also teach world literature, so for a living I educate teenagers in this area about the problems in the world. Each semester, I make them write letters to governments to show them how they too can have an impact on society. I also run charity drives within my classes. I am white, I am middle-class and I am liberal. I am also very well educated and well-traveled, and I'm not apologizing for that, although I am a little appalled at your predjudice against my particular socioeconomic group.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Wow, Angus. You said in your other thread that enjoy stirring things up. So you came here and stirred things up, and when people disagreed with you, you took it personally, made personal attacks and ran for the door.
It seems like you think television should have no meaning because the right people don't watch it or something, or maybe because people shoudn't be watching TV because they should be out saving the world? I didn't really get where you were going with that since you are posting to a fansite for a show you keep saying you like.
As for what I do to help, I belong to UNICEF. I also teach world literature, so for a living I educate teenagers in this area about the problems in the world. Each semester, I make them write letters to governments to show them how they too can have an impact on society. I also run charity drives within my classes. I am white, I am middle-class and I am liberal. I am also very well educated and well-traveled, and I'm not apologizing for that, although I am a little appalled at your predjudice against my particular socioeconomic group.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
I am a big fan of the show, and am really looking forward to the movie coming out - and the subsequent series, God willing and studios getting some sense.
I did say I like to start a debate, not for debate's sake, you understand? I'm not a mass debater or anything. I didn't take criticism personally, I took person attacks personally. And I've run for no door. Anyone who knows me, knows I never back down from a fight, at least if a principal's involved. I said I might have to leave, if the person who was requesting my exile got their way.
No, I don't think TV should have no meaning, quite the contrary. I just don't think it should be given too much. For me FF is pure entertainment, well written and acted etc. I think TV can have a very positive effect when used correctly; but let's face it, Mau, it's pretty rare these days with all the reality crap and makeover shows. Actually, you know what the worst show is for being preachy and pretentious? Star Trek TNG! Please don't say you're a big fan or we're off again...
Anyway, as to your socio-economic group, I wasn't being prejudiced, I was making a guess. Glad you're doing something positive to "change the World" and what could possibly be wrong with that?
As I said, I aint going anywhere just now. It was just that my other thread is soooo bloody long now, must be about 10 metres of text.
Cheers for now,
Angus.
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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It's not the television shows we take too seriously, it's the comments about "us" watching the television shows.
While I don't think proprietariness over a show is a pretty thing, one can't help being proprietary when one enjoys something to the extent that I and others have enjoyed Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. I take my own proprietariness with a grain of salt, because I realize the creativity isn't mine, just the enjoyment. With that in mind, I thoroughly enjoyed each and every episode - to a greater or marginally lesser degree - and on re-watching (yes, I have each and every season except for the last one of Angel which is out next month, and has been preordered since November), my enjoyment has risen, because I am more able to see the arcs, the subtleties, and with the commentaries and whatnot, I have more of an insight into what the creative and production teams were doing.
I love having a context in which to put things.
I don't think Firefly would've suffered in quality over more than one season, because I know that Joss Whedon and his team understand character and story development.
That being said, the original topic of this thread really didn't interest me that much - I've discussed the same thing elsewhere, and I really have no patience with nay-sayers and people who think seasons six and seven were somehow lacking in quality because "their" characters underwent changes of which they disapproved. There was a lot that was uncomfortable about those seasons, which is my theory on why people dislike them so much. As for season 4 - Adam was groovy, and the denouement was excellent.
Anyway. I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist. Someone mentioned exclusion, and that's why I define myself that way. I can't stand sexism, I don't care who's doing it. Everyone deserves to be treated equally, but if you're going to act like a prat, I will spank you, hard. I like to spank, and I have many methods for offering correction.
Andrew:
Quote:
I honour women, like them and respect them, but I'm no feminist. I like people, no matter what the sex. I don't like labels.
Labels may be uncool, even incorrect, politcally-sepaking (not that I really care), but labels are what help us sort things from each other. Like I said, I'm a humanist. So, it's fine if you don't like to label yourself, but don't think you're proving your liberality (in a philosophical, not political, sense) when you say you "honour" women. Women don't need to be honoured, Andrew, they need to be treated just like everybody else, but in the good way.
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I'd go so far as to say, feminism has done a lot of harm to society, especially in families. I'm all for women being respected and honoured. I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't really mean anything.
See, this is where you've made your mistake. How has feminism harmed society? What on Earth are you going on about? I don't agree with the stridency feminism often resorts to, but without the genesis of the movement, women would not even be able to vote. Sure, this snip is from a post previous to the one I'm responding to, but even your later post doesn't really indicate a change of heart and/or mind.
It's the "honouring" thing that will get you every time.
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Female circumcision is certainly practiced in many African and Islamist cultures. I'm sorry, making intercourse so ungodly painful? You do know what it's used for right? To stop intercourse. It doesn't so much make it painful as impossible.
More info on female genital mutilation:
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm - the most severe of which is infibulation. This consists of a clitoridectomy - removal of the clitoris so there will never be any orgasm, ever - as well as cutting off the labia, then sewing the raw edges together so that only a small opening is left for urination. Imagine the pain of menses. Many girls die of infection, since this is not generally done in a medically sterile environment.
Now, should the girl survive, and marry - and she will o
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Andrew said:
I honour women, like them and respect them, but I'm no feminist. I like people, no matter what the sex. I don't like labels.
This is what bothers most about the whole post. Andrew doesn't like labels but is willing to use them for others (i.e. liberal, feminist, middle class.) Well here I agree. Labels suck. They are imprecise. But terms can be very useful. Looks to me like we need to clearly define some terms. Especially feminism.
Pardon my hyperbole for a moment but Andrew seems to think that feminism is a movement out of Hollywood that inspires the destruction of family values and promotes lesbianism. REEQUEEN seems to think it is a single movement that, sometimes overzealously, defends women’s rights and battles against the many heinous abuses perpetrated on women.
Guess what. Both of you are a little right. Both of you are very wrong.
Feminism is not a consistent movement. It is not a single philosophy or world view. It is not anti family. It does, in many cases, challenge the 'conservative' patriarchal structure of the 'traditional' family unit. Feminism covers a lot of ground and is a poor term for describing a show like Buffy, though I would say that Joss is a powerful proponent of many feminist ideals, including the 'feminist' idea that women are at least as capable in traditional male roles.
Furthermore; feminism is a very emotional charged word. Elements on the right (read as Rush Limbaugh) have demonized the term. Elements on the left have used it so broadly that it has become vague beyond usefulness. Maybe we should each try saying what we really mean.
Sorry for exceeding my 25 lines ;-)
-Eli
I like to attach my name so that ad hominim attacks can be more personal 
This is what a feminist looks like.
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First of all, will folks please quit capitalizing my entire name? If you can't take the time to actually type it (and to do it correctly: ReeQueen; or simply: Ree), don't bother, just call me That Strange Person Who Disrupts the Train of Discussion (TSPWDtToD), thanks. It's rather unnerving to have a simple pseudonym referred to (more than once) in all caps. 'Cause it's actually mean to be Ree, Queen of the Universe, but some forums have limits. Like, they won't allow spaces, capitalization, or punctuation. I dunno. Anyway, it makes me feel as though you're (the general "you," not specifically "you-you") shouting at me and my ears are senstive. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
Xenocide:
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REEQUEEN seems to think it is a single movement that, sometimes overzealously, defends women’s rights and battles against the many heinous abuses perpetrated on women.
I know exactly what feminism means, thanks ever so much. I prefer being a humanist and I've explained why. What we're really discussing here is sexism, whatever Andrew or anybody else thinks to call it. Sexism bothers me, and it cuts both ways. I know the same amount of women who refer to all men as "bastards" and "sonsabitches" (I've been one of them at a few points in my life), as I know men (and women) who think I should be in the kitchen, bearing children (sorry, I'm menopausal now!), and massaging my husband's feet (he massages mine, he's a great coddler). In fact, the last person to exhibit retro-feminism in my presence was my mother, but nobody wants to hear my psychological issues right now.
The word "feminism" isn't merely the sum of it's definition (look up "connotation" and then argue definitions), it is what the word represents, and to me that is a certain stridency that focuses energy on something exclusionary, as opposed to taking care of every human being. It's like saying "Size is a feminist issue," (I quote from The Full Monty, by the way) and ignoring the fact that size issues are actually health issues for everyone.
"Heinous abuses" are, in fact, committed on everybody, no matter what gender, race, age, or religious affiliation. Sometimes, it's the religious affiliation perpetuating the abuses, but that's another thread.
In all honestly, I admire stridency if it's done well (and I like to think I do strident very well), but what truly gets up my left nostril is when that stridency serves no purpose other than to bitch about men. Wah. If a person doesn't like the way he's/she's being treated, he/she needs to do something about it, because that is what needs to be done.
I am every bit as freaked out by the fact that boys were castrated for the Vienna Boys' Choir (and I'm sure there are other, more recent examples, but I'm lazy and not looking it up right now), oh-so-long-ago, as I am by female genital mutilation. I am every bit as revolted by men being raped in jail or in interrogation centers, as I am by the same thing happening to women. Anything that can be done to a woman can be done to a man, and has been.
That is why I think feminism, and all it's connotations, is a separatist issue, and not inclusive. It is why I believe that people need to concentrate on human rights in general, wherever it is needed, rather than splintering political groups working towards their own, exclusive, goals.
And mostly why I'm gonna be Queen of the Universe when I grow up. I realize this may take a long time, which is also why I know I'm going to live forever. Eternity is a long time in which to achieve my goals.
But, that's just me, and I can understand where misapprehension can occur.
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Angus, et al...
I just wanted to toss a couple of pennies in here..
1st of all - you're right about the last 2 years of Buffy. Suuuuucked. Preachy. Lame, lame metaphors (e.g. Magic = Drugs). The feminist propoganda, however, was the basis of the entire show (according to Joss) -- it just came across much better in the early years.
2nd - I think you mentioned God in one of these posts, and the idea of Good v. Evil being tossed aside for shades o' grey later in the series. May I suggest reading-->
Richard Greene and Wayne Yuen (San Jose State University), Why Can’t We Spike Spike?: Moral Themes in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
You can find it at www.slayage.tv, issue #2.
Two philosophy professors dissect the different levels of moral systems found on television, "After school special" on up. Interesting as hell, and you might enjoy.
One last thing to consider: Joss initially didn't want to make seasons 6 and 7. The show was going to finish with Buffy dying and the town getting destroyed. Give him props for the intent, even if he didn't follow through and let the program become, well... 
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Ree:
Quote:
First of all, will folks please quit capitalizing my entire name?
Sorry, but if you don't sign your post how the heck are we supposed to know how you want it formatted. The only place I see it in this thread is in the header...allcaps.
(above edited for brainfart)
Sorry if it is "mean" to be you but you can't be anyone else ;-)
About feminism.
I think it's a little high handed of you to lecture me about connotation when the point (and my pardon if I was unclear) of my previous post was that we are using the connotative (and therfore subjective) meanings of feminism in the posts instead of the denotative meanings.
So in order to practice what I preach these definitions are from Meriam Webster
feminism:
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
Using those definitions I would classify myself as a feminist. Now I agree that in many ways the feminist movement is exclusionary. I only ever went to one meeting of NOW and left because I didn't appreciate the hate directed at me just because I'm a man. But anyway... as a philosophy and as a critical paradigm I am in agreement with feminism.
on the other hand...
humanism:
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason
The first definition was a student of the humanities and under that definition I would consider myself a humanist.
But I imagine you meant the one above. Secular humanism. I was a secular humanist for a while. But I've come to believe that reason has done about as much service to humanity as well religion. It is just one more flawed faith... but i digress.
Some others that I found helpful.
Main Entry: con·no·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "kä-n&-'tA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a : the suggesting of a meaning by a word apart from the thing it explicitly names or describes b : something suggested by a word or thing : IMPLICATION
2 : the signification of something
3 : an essential property or group of properties of a thing named by a term in logic -- compare
If feminism has seperatist or sexist connotations it is because the right has successfully hijacked the term.
But by definition humanism is about reason and feminism is about equality. I'd mostly rather be a feminist.
Now that I've pulled my own train job on this thread. I apologize. Obviously the flaming cow didn't read much on the site before posting. Fen, in general, and flen, in specific, are anything but sheep. And if we like to say shiny, it is because it is clever and we like clever things.
And crap, we're having fun and we like each other.
Thanks,Ree! This is fun! And again, my apologies to the non ontologists in the group! I love this place, where else could I post 'ontology?'
-Eli
If voting mattered it would they'd make it illegal.
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Eli:
Quote:
Sorry, but if you don't sign your post how the heck are we supposed to know how you want it formatted. The only place I see it in this thread is in the header...allcaps.
(above edited for brainfart)
Sorry if it is "mean" to be you but you can't be anyone else ;-)
Heh. Well, that was what the first paragraph was about....my name and how I prefer to be addressed. It was tongue-in-cheeky of me, and I do know that when you hit "reply with quote" the addressee ends up being all caps. I was just havin' a bit o' fun. No harm done. You-you.
Quote:
I think it's a little high handed of you to lecture me about connotation when the point (and my pardon if I was unclear) of my previous post was that we are using the connotative (and therfore subjective) meanings of feminism in the posts instead of the denotative meanings.
High-handed is what I do. Also, see "condescending." I do see where you're coming from, it's just that I disagree on a whole other level. Your self-labelling of "feminist" is fine and dandy, but if you do that, you must allow me my self-label of humanist. All in all, I think men identifying themselves as "feminist" is groovy, I just choose a different route.
Quote:
Using those definitions I would classify myself as a feminist. Now I agree that in many ways the feminist movement is exclusionary. I only ever went to one meeting of NOW and left because I didn't appreciate the hate directed at me just because I'm a man. But anyway... as a philosophy and as a critical paradigm I am in agreement with feminism.
And I can agree with that - you see yourself as a feminist, as you understand and define it. I don't, and I think I should be allowed that privilege. That is all. (I always get into the same argument when I make the humanist/feminist distinction, so we're not going over ground that's unfamiliar to me.)
Quote:
But by definition humanism is about reason and feminism is about equality. I'd mostly rather be a feminist.
Ah, but here's where you're mistaken - although you posted the lovely dictionary definition of "humanism," I use the term somewhat differently, as I have described. If you can define yourself as a "feminist" because of the philosophy and critical paradigm, it's only fair that I be able to define myself as "humanist" because I want to hijack the term, and make it mean something important to myself.
Humanism was originally part of the Renaissance and Enlightenment period, when artistic and scientific focus was drawn more towards human beings than esoteric subjects (medicine vs. prayer, human potential vs. waiting for the afterlife). It was and is about reason, but that doesn't mean humanism is cold and mechanical. Humanism was about what human beings could accomplish, our potential and responsibility for each other.
I feel that we should all be responsible for ourselves and each other, as human beings. I don't deny a possible spirituality, because I admit I don't know many answers. I just think humans are important, which is why I'm a humanist. It's like a person who likes butterflies is a lepidopterist.
I mean, I could've gone the homo-sapiens-phile direction, but that would've just opened up a whole other can of worms.Quote:
And crap, we're having fun and we like each other.
Thanks,Ree! This is fun! And again, my apologies to the non ontologists in the group! I love this place, where else could I post 'ontology?'
De nada. This is fun - I love words, definitions, and being able to be opinionated in "public." You should see me with stree preachers....
(edited because I thought of something to add after I posted this.)
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Well now that I've seen how you define your self labeling humanism, I find it an acceptable label for and interesting person Not that anyone needs my approval for anything. But I'm glad to know your a humanist more of Montesquieu 's stripe than of Descartes’. Descartes was a C student if you ask me. (If your wise you won’t.)
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
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My $2.07 (after sales tax) worth:
Jesus was the ultimate humanist: He said the only thing an individual needs to find enlightenment and spiritual salvation is a personal relationship with Him. No other mediator -- church, state or society -- is required. It all springs from the Self, in service to the Lord, along the path He sets your feet upon.
That's a pretty strong statement of belief, and I apologize to anyone whose sensibilities it offends. But if you think you're scandalized, you should have seen the look on the face of the elder when I said it, and the suddenly quiet and thoughtful looks on the faces of the (adult) Sunday school class. I had him and he knew it...
Philosophically,
zoid
P.S.
Yes, I'm a faithful Christian; but, I've got a real problem with the religions of Men. At some point, a man or group of men get around to slicing up The Bible and parceling it out to support their agenda of control. They set themselves up as required go-betweens, a necessary bridge between God and human that is actually more harmful than good.
I again apologize to those who -- at the mere mention of Jesus or religious belief in general -- become infuriated. It's what I believe, and I'm not 'selling it', any more than those who claim agnosticism or atheism as a belief system. (As a distinguished, if elfin Canadian once sang, "If you choose not to decide, You still have made a choice.") I beg your indulgence, to be different.
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
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Eli, I try never to put Descartes before the horse.
Sorry. Sometimes I have an inability to not use a lame joke, no matter how old it is.....
Zed - Personally, I am not offended by your statement of belief. It's not "belief" that offends me, it's the luggage that usually comes with it, and as far as I can tell, you've only got a carry-on. I should stop while I'm ahead, huh?
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Got no problem with Christ. A good fellow. Generally god is welcome on my boat. Tends to be christians who ain't. Interesting christian anarcho-syndicalists like yourself excepted. I even left a seat for him at my wedding. He may have stopped by, but I was busy and missed him when I visited his table. Maybe he got sick of sitting with my wife's 'christian' hypocrite cheering section of the family.
Sorry. I got bitter about church types a long time ago, but jesus is just alright with me.
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
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If I could I'd put Decartes before a horse. Then trample him.
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
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ReeQueen wrote:
Quote:
...It's not "belief" that offends me, it's the luggage that usually comes with it, and as far as I can tell, you've only got a carry-on...
To carry your playful analogy (metaphor?) only a little farther, temporally: Hopefully, when I get to baggage check there won't be something metallic in the carry-on, which gets me pulled out of the line. I mean, it may be silvery and sharp, but it really has no capacity for harm, and can be useful for clipping the offending edges off of stuff.
Luckily, I've got a good Agent to get me out of such predicaments, and the queue for my departure gate is reported to be quite short...
Allegorically,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
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To push it even further: I'm in the smoker's lounge, watching people at the various departure gates, each going to the destination of their choice. I'm just hanging out, trying to decide which destination is best, but mostly just enjoying a nicotine fix.
Hopefully I also have a good book to read.
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Doesn't anyone else find parts of this discussion funny...in a sad sorta way? People are in here acting like they are accepting of everyone and that it's the high road everyone else should be taking. Then in the same breath they say other cultures are evil and wrong because they don't like the things they do. I'm sorry that some people's actions and motives go against your beliefs but why were you given the all powerful position of deciding what's right and wrong? If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide. If that same culture goes through a revolution and changes the way things work for them, that's all good too. The only time I would say there is any reason to jump in and try to change a culture is when that culture threatens to harm or change another culture. Which puts some of the people in this thread on the bad list in my opinion. Sure it might take some cultures longer than others to get to a state that they actually want to be in. There's also a good chance that some of us could step in and do things to help them along. I'm a believer that people have to learn to do things on their own though. It might take a while and there might be pitfalls along the way, but in the end I think they'll be stronger for it.
Anyway there's my thoughts. No need to buy into them if you don't like them.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'm sorry that some people's actions and motives go against your beliefs but why were you given the all powerful position of deciding what's right and wrong? If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide.
Wow.
Then I guess you'd be fine if someone cut your genitals off, if our society said it was OK. You wouldn't want anyone to step in and save you because that might have an adverse effect on society. By stopping genital mutilation. On you.
I do not want to live in your world.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'm sorry that some people's actions and motives go against your beliefs but why were you given the all powerful position of deciding what's right and wrong? If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide.
Wow.
Then I guess you'd be fine if someone cut your genitals off, if our society said it was OK. You wouldn't want anyone to step in and save you because that might have an adverse effect on society. By stopping genital mutilation. On you.
I do not want to live in your world.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
How am I supposed to know that one? If I was raised to believe it was the right thing to do maybe I would be fine with it. Then again maybe I wouldn't. In which case I should do what I think is right to prevent or all together stop the practice. I wouldn't expect some other country to fight a war for me though.
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You know what? It isn't okay for adults to mutilate children, and I don't give a good goddamn whether or not that messes with somebody's "cultural" privilege. As if there was such a thing.
If the victim in question is an adult, and gives informed consent to have his balls cut off, then fine. Stupid, but fine. But if children are involved - kids who don't have a choice, and generally don't know why they have to go through immense amounts of pain for physical mutilation and disfigurement - then all bets are off.
Go to any site that has information on female genital mutilation, and you will discover that the women who have been mutilated didn't have much informed choice in the matter. It's not like they celebrated a birthday by getting their clitorises cut off with rusty blades. Maybe their parents and older siblings and other family members celebrated, but I hardly think a girl of five understands the "cultural" reasons for her torture.
(According to this site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm, FGM is a social, rather than religious practice.)
Besides which, there is a certain type of propaganda at work with any kind of detrimental practice any culture exhibits. It's part of the nature of the beast. Even if a little girl finds it acceptable to go under the blade, do you really she's fully informed about the consequences? Do you really think she knows how much not only the procedure will hurt, but every subsequent menstrual cycle, urination, and every single act of intercourse? Not to mention other health risks inherent in the procedure (see site linked above).
That's why it's wrong, and that's why I'd say it was wrong for any other culture to do anything of a similar horrible nature.
To address part of what I think you object to, in essence, Zeek:
I'm very judgemental, and I like me that way. I also have the ability to learn and change my mind about stuff, though rarely stuff that involves hurting other people, and never about stuff that involves disfiguring a child for life. I used to try to be nonjudgemental, but that's just so much bushwah. Everybody judges, whether or not they admit it. It's a part of our evolutionary package - the ability to discriminate, make choices, and commit to actions. If we didn't "judge," we'd all still be sitting around, chewing grass. Or something.
Just because a culture is a thousand or so years old, doesn't automatically make it worthwhile. Just because I find certain things about a culture offensive, doesn't mean I think the entire culture is a waste of time, either. I just don't think accepting everything about another culture is necessary (or even particularly desirable), simply by virture of it's age, or the fact that it's not "American" culture. As if there was such a thing.
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Zeek wrote:
Quote:
...If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide.
Did you proofread that statement? Your internal editor decided to go with that story?! Please tell me you're just trolling, here.
But let's assume you're not, that you're dead serious.
In which case, why stop at cultures that say mutilating a specific group of people is okay? Why not say, "Each Individual has the right to mutilate their own children and wives, and no societal authority -- either external or internal -- has the right to intervene." Of course when I say "Individual", I mean 'Male'. I'm just trying to cloak it in ambiguities, to avoid upsetting the gentlefolk (meaning: 'those whom we seek to subjugate'). But you know what I meant, right? You didn't really even have to consider that I might have been saying, 'person of either sex'; 'male' was assumed.
So, if I feel it's necessary, I should be able to put the clamps on my chattel... er, family... to save them from themselves. And really, it doesn't matter what culture or society I live in. I'm an Individual, and if you don't like the way I live, you should keep your nose where it belongs. Countries, cultures or individuals: it's all the same.
Now, let's say I don't believe in actually taking a knife to my womenfolk, nor bind their feet in tiny little shoes to keep them properly petite (cutely reminiscent of a hog's trotter, btw), nor force them to wear boned corsets drawn with a hand crank 'til they can scarcely breathe (in order to present a proper 13" waistline), nor even ankle-length, long-sleeved, high-necked dresses. I am an American, after all, and a civilized Individual. Still, we know women are not good at analyzing things or being circumspect with finances. As a consequence, when my wife thinks she needs money for something, she must come to me to get it. I then analyze her desired purchase and determine whether or not it's financially sound policy to grant her wish.
Yada-yada, 'I check out my daughter's dates to see if they are appropriate for her'... *cough*bullshit!*sniffle*... 'I take a firm hand with my son, so that he gets a sensible education, rather than just doing things that interest him with no potential for earnings'... Ah-choo!*eatme*... 'My daughter doesn't really need an education; we send her to college to meet potential marriage partners'...
Yes, we in the West are clearly morally superior to all other cultures, regarding Individual freedoms.
But here's the thing: It's wrong. Just because everyone's doing it, in one form or another, all over the world, doesn't make it right. If an Individual -- or an entire culture -- mutilates or in any other way subjugates any portion of its populace based on sex, color, age or creed, it's (say it with me) W-R-O-N-G.
The problem appears to be, these days, that people are just too lily-livered to say it out loud... Never know who you might offend. Well, I say the Emperor is naked, and if any of the above footwear fits you: Wear it.
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Ummm, by the bye: I musta missed the news flash wherein we reportedly invaded a sovereign African nation to save the clitorises and vaginae. And that's the kind of story that normally pricks my ears up, too, on the CNN Headline News-muzak display... Somebody got a link for the invasion?
P.P.S.
I'm sure glad I'm a male, er, individual. Every time I fantasize about a female-dominated society, gone to the lengths our male-dominated one has, I picture men wearing fashionably revealing trousers, facial makeup on depilated faces, and going shirtless a lot (although the female Individuals might insist we wear something over our nipples, for our own protection, of course).
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by Willowy:
.
Read up
I find this hiliarious, read up read up you say read up on what?, those propaganda articles on buffy.nu, moronic posts by 14 year olds who say that buffy is their favourite show, even more favourite then one tree hill or the oc.
read UP READ UP, are you trying to say you should base your opinion on something based on whats written about it on a website. Let me tell you something anything wriiten by anyone is just their personal opinion nothing more. you have a opinion too you know i sugest you use it.
I am in tears after reading that, i had to skip all the way to the bottom of the page to reply so i don't know what zoids talking about, but i'm sure its brilliant.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
P.P.S.
... Every time I fantasize about a female-dominated society, gone to the lengths our male-dominated one has, I picture men wearing fashionably revealing trousers, facial makeup on depilated faces, and going shirtless a lot (although the female Individuals might insist we wear something over our nipples, for our own protection, of course).
Sounds like an episode from season 2...
That guy, working electric, he never drank with us!
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Are you drunk?
I'm talking about books. You know, those things with paper pages? The printed word.
Essayists and reviewers and authors of great stature and reputation have published countless tomes in praise of BtVS and Angel. Some of the best being "Bite Me" by Nikki Stafford, "Slayer", by Keith Topping, and "Seven Seasons of Buffy", a book of essays edited by Glenn Yeffeth.
There have also been college courses on BtVS, and philosophical think tanks discussing Buffy's impact on popular culture.
That's just scratching the surface. Do your own research if you want to know more.
If you think that BtVS is just for '14 year old fangirls' then you don't know anything at all. Buy or rent seasons 1 AND 2, watch them, then come back when you have something to say. I guarantee your tone will have changed.
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Zed:
Okay, so I've been giggling a lot over stuff I've found on various sites, not all related, so my saying your post made me choke on my Pepsi may not be that big a deal. However, the frequency of my laughter, accompanied by nothing but keystrokes, is beginnig to alarm my family and cats.
I may have to stop the Norco, just so I can get through something like your post without inhaling a carbonated beverage up my nose.
Thanks in advance for taking my state of mind into consideration,
Ree.....
Um, yeah. Sorry. Did I say that out loud?
Quote:
Now, let's say I don't believe in actually taking a knife to my womenfolk, nor bind their feet in tiny little shoes to keep them properly petite (cutely reminiscent of a hog's trotter, btw), nor force them to wear boned corsets drawn with a hand crank 'til they can scarcely breathe (in order to present a proper 13" waistline), nor even ankle-length, long-sleeved, high-necked dresses.
As counter-examples, my son has discovered body piercing. I saw one of those HBO shows, Real Sex, wherein an adult (American) female bound her feet - Chinese Style (as opposed to Idle Hands Style) - for self-titillation. And until you've seen ballet boots, the words "self torture" have no meaning. I used to wear a corset to my favourite Goth Clubs, until I noticed everybody (male, female, whatever) was wearing them. So passe (and I'd add the accent acute, but I skipped that part of my HTML self-teaching, besides which I don't think it'd work here. Would it?).
Quote:
But here's the thing: It's wrong. Just because everyone's doing it, in one form or another, all over the world, doesn't make it right. If an Individual -- or an entire culture -- mutilates or in any other way subjugates any portion of its populace based on sex, color, age or creed, it's (say it with me) W-R-O-N-G.
But it's such a hard leap to make: hurting people = wrong. I mean, geez....
Quote:
The problem appears to be, these days, that people are just too lily-livered to say it out loud... Never know who you might offend. Well, I say the Emperor is naked, and if any of the above footwear fits you: Wear it.
I really only want to wear footwear that consists of thigh-high purple velvet boots (when I find/make/steal or conjure them), with a flat heel because I have no sense of balance.
Offending people is sometimes the only thing that works. It gets attention (and I'm not talking about the personal attention I missed from my mother, high school class mates and several men I've dated, although that's good too, but attention on the problem), and has the added bonus of venting steam. I have a theory that most people who believe in the whole non-interference with/whole acceptance of other "cultures" thing (no matter what that culture does to the people who live with it), or any other bald-faced silliness, aren't really going to change their minds, anyway, no matter how reasoned, calm, or persuasive anyone is. I realize this is mostly just my excuse to, well, rant every once in a while, but there ya go.
Quote:
P.S.
Ummm, by the bye: I musta missed the news flash wherein we reportedly invaded a sovereign African nation to save the clitorises and vaginae. And that's the kind of story that normally pricks my ears up, too, on the CNN Headline News-muzak display... Somebody got a link for the invasion?
www.itwillneverhappen.tu
....Anybody else feeling like the posting/cgi box is too small? I'm starting to feel claustrophobic, writing all these long, long, loooonnnggg, posts, all cramped up here in this wee thing. I need space to roam, man....Um...yeah....
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Quote:
Originally posted by Willowy:
I'm talking about books. You know, those things with paper pages? The printed word.
Essayists and reviewers and authors of great stature and reputation have published countless tomes in praise of BtVS and Angel. There have also been college courses on BtVS, and philosophical think tanks discussing Buffy's impact on popular culture.
.
lol
Let me tell you something all those BOOKS that you read. They are only one persons personal opinion, theres no definite opinion to have on Buffy. The only thing that is important is what you pesonaly think of it, nothing else.
Oh and please stop acting like your intelligent because you read books, i don't care how many books you have read you won't get my respect untill you write your own book.
But i know that will never happen as your nothing more then a sheep who needs other people to tell you what to think.
ps. zoid get off my back i don't like you any more and have taken you off my chrismas card mailing list.
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FireflyFan23:
Quote:
Let me tell you something all those BOOKS that you read. They are only one persons personal opinion, theres no definite opinion to have on Buffy. The only thing that is important is what you pesonaly think of it, nothing else.
*Ahem* In reality, the books, essays, think tanks, committees, workshops, and more have been done on the subject, and I'm sure more will be done on the subject. http://www.slayage.tv/pages/Slayage/slayagearchive.htm
These opinions you find so personal have actually reached a consensus as to the worth and worthiness of BtVS, Angel, and Firefly. So, not so much personal opinions anymore.
Of course, there is no definitive opinion on BtVS, Angel, or Firefly, except that most critics believe Joss Whedon &c. have provided watchable, worthwhile, television over a good many years. Some philosophers, ethicists, educators, pundits, and followers of popular culture have based quite interesting little philosophical sub-genres on these productions.
I personally find it all a bit much, because I think reading that deeply into popular entertainment is kinda silly. That's just my opinion, and, unlike those I mentioned above, I don't make any money off it. Yet.
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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If I needed other people to tell me what to think, I wouldn't be a Whedon fan.
People who enjoy BtVS and Joss' two other shows are usually thoughtful, insightful people. You could take a page or two from THAT type of book.
Thank you Reequeen for your addition to what I was trying to get across to this moron in as few words as possible. He wouldn't last 5 minutes at Whedonesque.
Where's Keith T. when you need him?
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It's wierd, because I never liked early Buffy or Angel, and only really started to like either show in the later seasons as things got 'heavier' and 'preachier'. Must mean I'm a heretic, I guess ;)
I also think that Firefly would have benefitted greatly from another 2-3 year run at least before any worry of a slide would have crept in.
In an ironic twist, I, too, never knew Joss was behind Firefly, not until I was hooked. That's a good thing, because had I know the person behind Buffy and Angel (which I only started sort of watching after Firefly) had been behind Our Great Series, I most likely would not have watched, thinking, based on Joss' other work, that it would be far too campy. Thank God for wonderful ignorance ;)
If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.
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Willowy:
I wouldn't worry too much about fireflyfan23. I get the sneaking suspicion that he's got multiple personalities on this board, and all of them got an F in the 'works and plays well with others' section of their report card. ff23 wrote:
Quote:(Emphasis on 'sheep' mine)
...But i know that will never happen as your nothing more then a sheep who needs other people to tell you what to think...
The use of the term 'sheep' to denigrate others has been done here before. I think it's too close to AngusThermopyle's use of the same term to be strictly coincidental. Read thread 'Sheep, baaaaaaah, baaah bah!' which has now been moved to Troll Country, and see if you see the same similarities I do. So until proven otherwise, I'm just gonna assume that fireflyfan23, AngusThermopyle and MyNameisJonas (earlier troll who got his ears pinned back) are one and the same person.
It should be noted that the personalities are too similar to be considered 'split'; it's one guy, socially maladjusted, but in an ultimately harmless way, with (at least) three different user names on this board.
So, I wouldn't worry about him. Ignore the sh*t out of him, is what I'd advise; especially since his arguments mostly consist of negation of your position. (Scene from Monty Python: "This isn't an argument." "Yes, it is!" "No it isn't; it's only contradiction." "No it's not!" et cetera.)
Some people are misfits because they don't want to fit in. Personally, I think it's an inferiority complex: They can't get past the feeling that they're not good enough to associate with 'normal people' (even though every person is 'good enough', just as they are). So they preemptively treat others with the disdain they fear they would be treated with, should the others ever see the 'real' them. "Normal people are sheep" really means "They have companionship I cannot have". Misfits of this type need to just relax and be themselves, warts and all. As long as they don't alienate others (out of fear of being rejected themselves), and learn to trust that most human beings enjoy associating with one another, they'll find that their fellow humans are actually broadly accepting of other viewpoints.
But you've gotta rely on the kindness of strangers, and it's tough to overcome that entrenched paranoia...
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Please note the entry 'former painful introvert' on my Profile page. I've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt...
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
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Holy shit zoid, just because i used the word sheep you say i have a multiple pesonality, all i meant by calling willowy a sheep was by how she was saying something was good because other people say it. If thats not a sheep please tell me what is.
i have no idea who angusthermopyle is and i only posted in mynameis jonas thread because i found your posts different from others an i wanted you to stay that doesn't make me him.
Judging from all that phycobabble you obviously have problems zoid. Please don't drag me down with you to try and make yourself feel better.
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My thoughts exactly, zoid. And I was suspicious that 'Angus' hadn't posted back to any of these thoughts as well...
Too bad you aren't a mod. You seem to have the knack for it!
Ignored he shall be. And thank you for the support!
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Willowy replied:
Quote:
...And thank you for the support!
Avec plaisir, amie. I've got a real problem with those who 'animalize' others, dehumanizing them by calling them 'sheep', 'cows', 'pigs', etc. It's hateful. I also have a problem with people who attack others without provocation; especially, males who attack females. I'm old-fashioned that way. Please forgive my antiquated notions of chivalry.
Respectfully,
zoid
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
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you no what zoid i have a real problem with you calling me angus just because i used the word sheep.
Sheep is a pretty freaking common word you know, i just went and read some of anguses posts and our styles are completely different.
I would of thought you would pick up on that, but i guess your not as smart as you think you are.
You can say calling her a sheep is insulting, but you can't say its not true, don't act like you have won this argument i'm correct.
ps. I find you saying i have a inferiority complex and multible personality disorder,
Then everyone believing you because you write long paragraphs with lots of obscure refrences. far more insulting then been called a sheep.
pps. she called me a moron arn't you going to come to my rescue with a 3 poage post about your cat or something.
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fireflyfan23:
Since you asked a fair question:
You felt insulted. How did that make you feel? Good? Here's another "phycobabble" term: Compassion. That's where you consider another person's feelings. Utilizing this newfound concept, how do you think you made Willowy feel when you called her a 'sheep'?
You're right: I really didn't mistake you for AngusThermopyle. I was just lumping y'all together under the general label of 'troll', similar to the way y'all lump people together as 'sheep', for effect. Perhaps I should stick to the animal theme, though, when unfairly labeling you. How about, "Jackass"?
It's a "pretty freaking common word", which should make it acceptable and not insulting, according to your argument...
Getting out the can opener,
zoid
P.S.
Willowy did indeed call you a moron, but only after you said:
Quote:...and continuing invective. She was directing her 'read up' remarks at AngusT, and you stuck your nose in and attacked her. Therefore, I cannot defend you against the enthusiastically pro-Buffy lady, since she acted in self-defense. Even one of my infamous "3 poage" posts about my cat won't make you right. Later, much.
I find this hiliarious, read up read up you say read up on what?, those propaganda articles on buffy.nu, moronic posts by 14 year olds who say that buffy is their favourite show...
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wow congratulations on completly missing the point of every single one of my arguments zoid.
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
fireflyfan23:
Since you asked a fair question:
You felt insulted. How did that make you feel? Good? Here's another "phycobabble" term: Compassion. That's where you consider another person's feelings. Utilizing this newfound concept, how do you think you made Willowy feel when you called her a 'sheep'
Hopefully she relised that she was in fact a sheep and decided to use her own judgement from now on instead of someone elses.
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
You're right: I really didn't mistake you for AngusThermopyle. I was just lumping y'all together under the general label of 'troll',
What are you talking about you straight out accused me of being the same person as angus and mynameisjonas.
Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
It's a "pretty freaking common word", which should make it acceptable and not insulting, according to your argument...[/
all as I meant was that lots of people use that word so just because someone says sheep, it doesn't make them me.
Quote:
P.S.
Willowy did indeed call you a moron, but only after you said:Quote:
I find this hiliarious, read up read up you say read up on what?, those propaganda articles on buffy.nu, moronic posts by 14 year olds who say that buffy is their favourite show
I diddn't mean she was a moronic 14 year old girl i was talking about people on other sites.
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Oh, Zoid, I am STILL laughing at that! The "3 poage" post about your cat! How is the other Little Cat, by the way?
Mal-licious
Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell
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'Lishus:
She -- 'Little Little' -- just won't leave me alone! I have never had such an affectionate feline. She keeps bringing me 'presents': Half-chewed field mice, mostly. Which is a good thing, I suppose, since the wintry weather we've been getting lately has been driving the critters into our garage. Still, she could just kill 'em and leave 'em where they drop, rather than bringing them into the house in her mouth and depositing them at my feet, sometimes only half-dead. I'm sure it's all very devotional by cat behavioral standards; but I'd just as soon she be a little more standoffish, like a stereotypical cat.
There's no such thing as sitting alone on the sofa. If I'm watching TV, I'm doing it with a cat on my lap, or on my chest, or wrapped around my neck. Frankly, it's a little spooky. I sometimes catch her staring at me, and it's like maybe she's an old girlfriend reincarnated as a cat. Imagination run wild, I know; but I've just never seen a cat get so attached to a human...
There's a trick to getting a cat to imprint on you: When they're kittens, you pet them around the head and shoulders, between the ears -- and you should refrain from petting below the shoulders because their spines are sensitive. If you've done it right, the kitten will work up a good drool, and may even have its mouth open slightly, as though it was smiling. Cats have scent glands in their mouths and this 'smiling' is indicative of them scenting their territory. Either smiling or drooling ('cause they want their mommy to feed them), you now gently grasp them by the head and rub your cheeks against their mouth. They may resist this somewhat, but just press on -- gently! -- and rub both cheeks against their mouth and then release them. It sounds bizarre, I know, but that cat becomes imprinted on you and is yours 'til death do you part.
Like any other magic, this charm should be used sparingly, and only once you're certain the cat is worth having (some cats are useless, sad to say). And I admit it's a pretty callous means of getting an animal to serve you; but every house should have a good backyard lion and a house wolf (preferably, a GSD) to keep varmints away.
So, in conclusion, I think everyone should be able to see why fireflyfan23 was right to call Willowy a 'sheep', because she is a sheep (Merino, I think). I'm disappointed in all the rest of us for not seeing it sooner, because we could have all had new jumpers this winter.
Cattily,
zoid
P.S.
*zoid gently massages the other Little Cat's ears, and lightly rubs cheeks with her*
P.P.S.
The cold, hard truth is that 'Little Little' owns me, not the other way around. But, I can live with that.
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
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Good thing I checked back in on this thread I guess.
Yes, there was a typo in one of my posts.
No, it was not meant to be trolling.
For the record I'm circumsised. Do you consider my parents monsters?
I see no reason why we should assume that any of us here are superior and deserve to decide right and wrong for the world.
Hurting others = wrong huh? I wish I had you on my side when I was getting immunization shots as a kid. I really didn't like the pain of those needles. Since it's wrong I assume you're out on the streets picketing and writing to congress to ban syringes. Or did you decide that this pain is ok because you have come to accept the result as being good? Amazing how a culture can teach people such things isn't it? I have no reason to believe that other cultures couldn't do the same. Which is why I'm glad we haven't invaded any South African countries to impose our will on their genital mutilation practices. Kudos to the USA.
I do understand that the children who undergo these operations may not be capable of making their own informed decision at the time. Neither was I as a child. Now that I've grown up some I learned the reasoning behind choices my parents made for me. If I didn't believe in them, I would try to prevent my potential future children from undergoing the same treatment. If I felt it was a complete outrage, I might even fight to stop the practice all together. That's how change is supposed to work in my book.
Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from. At least enough to understand that I'm not trying to get you riled up.
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Just 'cos I'm concerned Zoid'll wear himself out...
I have no cats to use I'm afraid, though I once owned a hamster. It died.
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
For the record I'm circumsised. Do you consider my parents monsters?
See that mark over there? See that hole in the post waaaaaayyyy over yonder. That's how far you missed the point of the argument. One's mutilation, the other has proven medical benefits (ignoring any religious connection).
Quote:
Hurting others = wrong huh? I wish I had you on my side when I was getting immunization shots as a kid. I really didn't like the pain of those needles.
Wow. Didn't think you could get any wider of the mark, but you raised the bar on this one. I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago. Medical benefit.
But I guess if we increased the infant mortality rates we'd decrease the surplus population, which in turn would probably lead to a lesser life expectancy as we started getting all the funky diseases back again, which in turn would ease the pension burden. Hey, I like your thinking, can you give W a ring with your ideas?
You're comparing apples with elephants. We (the civilised West) used to burn and dunk women for being witches. In Iran they recently paused stoning to death a woman that committed adultery. The man that she committed it with; he was due to be hanged.
Sometimes wrong is just wrong, and the culture excuse is just so much bull
. "I threw up on your bed"
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Zeek:
I can see where you're just trying to be reasonable, respectful of the cultural heritage of other peoples whose worldview differs from Judeo-Christian mores, and I appreciate that. I really do. Different is not intrinsically Wrong, just different. So, that's a good point, okay?
But comparing an innoculation -- no matter how big the needle -- to cutting a child's clitoris off and then sewing her vagina shut?
C'mon. Hate to say it, but that dog just won't hunt...
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
Kudos to the USA for overstepping its bounds and stopping Germany's practice of incinerating Jews, rather than waiting for German society to decide it was wrong. (EDIT: We had cohorts in that heinous invasion of German culture, but I won't implicate them. As an American, I'll step up and take all the blame.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Kudos to the USA for overstepping its bounds and stopping Germany's practice of incinerating Jews, rather than waiting for German society to decide it was wrong.
Less kudos to the UK and the USA for ignoring it for far too long though. If there's any lesson from history that we still don't learn, its to have the guts to step in soon enough - Rwanda being one of the most obvious examples.
"I threw up on your bed"
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Apparently my point wasn't obvious enough. We believe that medical benefit is worth some pain. They believe preventing adultary is worth some pain. (or so it sounds. I really don't know their motives or beliefs.) It's different values.
As for World War II I don't think the attempted genocide against the jews had anything to do with our invasion. Germany was invading other countries and was a potential threat to the USA if they continued unchecked. The Pearl Harbor thing helped a bit too. Ending the holocaust was merely a side effect.
Really the point is this isn't cut and dry. There is no black and white here and I think we both know it. So I don't see any need for the use of capslock. Maybe I never mentioned it, but I don't believe that the genital mutilation being performed is right. Just wanted to make sure I'm clear on that point.
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Quote:
For the record I'm circumsised. Do you consider my parents monsters?
Depends on how you view circumcision, which for men does not have quite the same physical consequences as female genital mutilation does for women.
Do you remember your circumcision? Did you know that doctors anaesthetize the baby's foreskin before they circumcise? Or was your circumcision a religious thing?
Did you get an infection? Does it affect your sexuality? Does it make urination and menstruation painful? The first time you had sex, did your circumcision cause you to be either ripped or cut open, and to bleed copiously?
Quote:
I see no reason why we should assume that any of us here are superior and deserve to decide right and wrong for the world.
Not superior, just aghast at what we see as the torture and mutilation of young girls.
Quote:
I wish I had you on my side when I was getting immunization shots as a kid.
Conflating FGM with getting shots is disingenuous at best, wilfully ignorant at most. How does immunizing children against getting sick (check history, come back when you know about rubella, whooping cough, and other childhood disease epidemics before immunization), equate with the cutting off of a girl's clitoris and labia, and sewing her vulva up?
Do we really have to qualify the statement "hurt = wrong" with "except when it benefits more than it hurts?" It really doesn't say much for the level of discourse, or your side of the argument, when inherent assumptions have to be spelled out every single time someone wants to make a point, or even just vent.
Quote:
I really didn't like the pain of those needles.
Too darn bad. Most of us went through it. A lot of us are unlucky enough to remember it.
Of course, getting an injection is a matter of comparison, isn't it? I'd say having my very sensitive bits cut off would hurt a hell of a lot more, although I've been fortunate enough to escape that fate.
Quote:
Since it's wrong I assume you're out on the streets picketing and writing to congress to ban syringes.
So, what about diabetic children? All that testing, all those needles. Do we need a crusade for them, too? You start the movement, I'll join in when I lose some of my higher reasoning functions.
Quote:
Or did you decide that this pain is ok because you have come to accept the result as being good?
"Come to accept?" Come to accept the virtual eradication of certain illnesses because of immunization? Are you comparing the health of many with the torture of the sharp, stinging sensation of being immunized?
Quote:
Amazing how a culture can teach people such things isn't it?
Yep. I'm glad I've been immunized, no matter how distasteful I find needles. I'm glad I never had the measles, whooping cough, diphtheria, smallpox, or tetanus.
Quote:
I do understand that the children who undergo these operations may not be capable of making their own informed decision at the time. Neither was I as a child.
So, you'd rather take the risk of contracting a disease that, what with our lack of immunity to germs now that everything is so antibacterial and antiseptic, would probably kill you in ten days, rather than have undergone the pain, the horror, the terrible mutilation forced upon you by your parents of that tiny little needle?
I'm glad my parents had me get the shots. I'm glad I've never been fatally ill with a common bug, and I'm really very happy about my tuberculosis scar. It means I won't ever get tuberculosis, and that's worth the prick.
Oh, by the way, I got the tuberculosis test and innoculation because my family emigrated to New Zealand - that country's government required emigres to be innoculated against tuberculosis when coming from the United States. I'm glad they "interfered" with the "culture" I was coming from. Saved me from spreading anything around, or from eventually coughing up a lung.
Comparing immunization to being castrated is, despite what your caveat impli
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Misguided By Voices responded:
Quote:
Less kudos to the UK and the USA for ignoring it for far too long though...
Hmmm. Well, it was a different world. There is still serious question regarding how much the rest of the world knew about the Final Solution. There were certainly whispers circulating that atrocities were taking place. But the official line is that sHitler was pretty good at keeping secrets, and spycraft at the time wasn't nearly as sophisticated as it is today (and we have recent results to prove it's not as good today as it's cracked up to be).
Quote:
If there's any lesson from history that we still don't learn, its to have the guts to step in soon enough - Rwanda being one of the most obvious examples.
Unfortunately for all concerned, it just doesn't work that way, does it? Step 1: You've got to float the concept that it's a basic human right not to have one's genitals sawn off past the obstructed intestine that is the United Nations, half the member nations of which think carnal knowledge of a goat is okay. Step 2: You've got to run the gauntlet of sanctions and subsequent extensions to allow compliance, then delays while trying to certify compliance, then new extensions because compliance couldn't be confirmed because the inspectors got their heads cut off, ad infinitum. Step 3: After 13 years of people continuing to get chopped up in a culturally acceptable way, and still no resolution in sight, you say, 'bugger this for a lark' and just go in and stop it, while the entire world calls you a criminal.
It's the American Way...
Respectfully,
zoid
P.S.
God Save the Queen, and bless her People. Not implicating anything, mind you; I'm just sayin'...
P.P.S.
Never vote for me for President. The first thing I'd do is kick the UN off our property, take a pair of scissors to our membership card and tell 'em to stop sending us the monthly newsletter.
_________________________________________________
"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
As for World War II I don't think the attempted genocide against the jews had anything to do with our invasion. Germany was invading other countries and was a potential threat to the USA if they continued unchecked. The Pearl Harbor thing helped a bit too. Ending the holocaust was merely a side effect.
The US didn't join WWII because the Germans were invading other countries. If that'd been the case, they would've joined in 1939 when Britain declared a state of war between her and Germany following Germany's invasion of Poland. The US didn't give a toss about Germany annexing other countries until Japan joined and made things a little more uncomfortable. America joined because of Pearl Harbour and for no other reason.
Britain had been trying to get America to join for 3 years, but America would only sell her weaponry and equipment (at full prices with interest that had to be paid in full and took 20 or so years).
Then, years later, the Falklands are invaded by Argentina. Britain sends a taskforce to take them back. America will have no part of it, France sells Argentina Exocet missiles and trains them (in secret and against UN articles) to shoot British planes down, even during the conflict.
Later again, the US invade Afghanistan after 9/11. Britain is asked for help and stands shoulder to shoulder with the US.
When Dubya Bush decides he wants to take on the Iraqis too, Britain are right there in the front lines. Even in some cases right in the insurrenction, when US troops can't put it down. The British expertise with terrorism and Northern Ireland was of great use and even helped Bush secure a second term when soldiers of the Black Watch regiment were sent to Falluja so that Bush didn't have the bad headlines expected.
The special relationship. Can anyone explain that to me?
You learn history from books, not Jerry Bruckheimer...
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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OK ReeQueen, apparently my point with the immunization thing wasn't clear enough.
I totally understand the reasoning for immunization and I believe the pain of a needle is worth it. There are two points though. 1.) I was too young to care at that point. I just didn't want to get a painful shot. So, I won't assume children around that age are going to be able to make a decision about painful proceedures. 2.) Is that obviously from some of the responses, we have totally excepted immunization shots into our accepted culture and find it obsurd to even consider not immunizing children. The parallels are right there in the open. South African culture might view their practices the same way. It may be painful but the result far outweighs the pain. I don't know for sure that this is how they view things but it's possible. So telling them that they are being barbaric just because we don't weigh the effects the same way they do may sound crazy to them.
This argument isn't going to go anywhere though. It seems that you are 100% decided and no other points of view are going to matter. So we might as well drop it.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The special relationship. Can anyone explain that to me?
Its as the old brother to the younger sibling who is outstripping him in what was his sporting/academic achievements - with a mixture of pride and pathos, pointing out the stumbles he made in the hopes that they will not be repeated.
Then again, we know how much siblings listen to each other...
Long may it reign. I don't necessarily agree with Blair's unstinting support for the War, but I understand why he felt he had to risk falling on his sword politically to maintain the special relationship, and having had that ephiphany (for a life long Tory it takes some doing), I find myself respecting him in some ways.
"I threw up on your bed"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The special relationship. Can anyone explain that to me?
Its as the old brother to the younger sibling who is outstripping him in what was his sporting/academic achievements - with a mixture of pride and pathos, pointing out the stumbles he made in the hopes that they will not be repeated.
Then again, we know how much siblings listen to each other...
Long may it reign. I don't necessarily agree with Blair's unstinting support for the War, but I understand why he felt he had to risk falling on his sword politically to maintain the special relationship, and having had that ephiphany (for a life long Tory it takes some doing), I find myself respecting him in some ways.
"I threw up on your bed"
Personally, I'd rather be allied with America that Europe. I certainly don't want to be in the EU and when we finally get a reforendum (spell?) that is worded fairly and specifically, I'll vote for us to get out.
I'm not a supporter of any political party, personally. I voted UKIP in the last locals. However, I won't vote for them again with Kilroy "cover me in cowshit" Silk trying to get the leadership. I'll probably vote Tory in the general this year, not because I like them - they seem to be going backwards to the 80s - rather as a tactical vote to help bring down Labours majority in the House. I live in a Lib Dem area - and they'd sell us straight out to Europe...
I just put the previous message coz it really gets up my nose when Americans speak about winning the war and you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for us... etc etc. I wish they'd stop getting their history from Hollywood.
I hate to think what Zeek will make of Churchill: The Hollywood Years. Probably think it's a documentary.
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Zeek. I think your problem with getting anyone to agree with you is that your comparisons are completely off. You are not comparing apples to apples, and not even comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to hand grenades. The only thing comparable to female genital mutilation is a man getting the head of his penis chopped off.
Now every man who thinks this would be okay even in the name of culture, raise your hand.
Anyone?
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Quote:That's quite true. Nothing like an attack on our own soil to make us wake up and say "HEY! DON'T DO THAT!"
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The US didn't join WWII because the Germans were invading other countries. If that'd been the case, they would've joined in 1939 when Britain declared a state of war between her and Germany following Germany's invasion of Poland. The US didn't give a toss about Germany annexing other countries until Japan joined and made things a little more uncomfortable. America joined because of Pearl Harbour and for no other reason.
There are others who would argue that we were biding our time, waiting for the right moment. We were burned pretty badly by WWI and the country was not enthusiastic about going to war. FDR wanted us in sooner, and used Pearl Harbor as the excuse.
Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
We were burned pretty badly by WWI
Erm, I'm probably going to regret interjecting here, and I know this sounds like I'm starting a childish p*ssing contest over war casualties...that really isn't my intention
Did you realize that the losses for the USA in WW1 were between 50,000 and 100,000 (sources differ). Britain & Empire (not my choice of term,that's the official reference for this info) 1 million; France & Empire - 1.3 million; even Italy lost 500,000.
I'm not trying to dismiss your losses and say you guys weren't burnt pretty badly. 50,000 - 100,000 deaths is horrific, a number that is so large it is hard to really appreciate just what that means.
I guess itjust grated a bit when I read that part of your comment Channain. Please don't take this as a flame or anything, 'tisn't meant that way.
*britchick adopts the brace position and covers head with hands*
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Quote:Oh stop it! I haven't smacked anyone yet. Unless it was for fun, of course
Originally posted by britchick:
Did you realize that the losses for the USA in WW1 were between 50,000 and 100,000 (sources differ). Britain & Empire (not my choice of term,that's the official reference for this info) 1 million; France & Empire - 1.3 million; even Italy lost 500,000.
I'm not trying to dismiss your losses and say you guys weren't burnt pretty badly. 50,000 - 100,000 deaths is horrific, a number that is so large it is hard to really appreciate just what that means.
I guess it just grated a bit when I read that part of your comment Channain. Please don't take this as a flame or anything, 'tisn't meant that way.
*britchick adopts the brace position and covers head with hands*
It's a fact, US losses were not nearly as tremendous. I can't dispute that and would never try to. But we were in a different place in those days and psychologially the country was hit pretty hard. I think the thing was that we didn't ever want to be in the position that the rest of the world was. A short-sighted view? Definitely. But it was the lack of popular public support that kept us out of WWII for so long. That, too was unfortunate. But the quote from the Japanese officer "I fear we have only awoken a sleeping giant," is true.
I often wonder, had we gotten into it sooner what the outcome would have been.
The rumor also goes that FDR knew about the Japanese attack well ahead of time and could have prepared our forces to receive it. Only he didn't because THAT is how badly he wanted to get into the war. In the end, WWII pulled us out of the Depression, so he comes up smelling like a rose. Ironic, don't you think?
Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
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Well I actually was stupid and lazy and only read the first two or three posts and then posted a reply, so this post now actually makes no sense in the context of the thread as it has developed - but I kinda like a few of the points I made
I've been struggling with this in my mind for a while now. The question is whether it is fair to criticise Joss, or rather bite the hand that feeds so many of us posting here, (well I'm usually a lurker but meh.)
After reading reviews of Angel, Buffy and Firefly on the television without pity site (which Nathan himself mentioned in a post which brought it to my attention) I had extremely mixed feelings. The reviews were deeply critical and mean at some points, but deeply funny at other points and in the Angel reviews some credit was given. They were unessecarily mean to Firefly though (the best of Whedon in my opinion.)
Someone posted somewhere (I forget) that they had protested about people being critical of Joss, while at the same time being avid fans of his work, and the reply was "I judge Joss on a much higher standards than anything else," which seemed like a very valid point to me.
Joss is incredible - but actually suprisingly human. When on the tiny far between occasions he has disappointed some people (never disappointing everyone) he has always been subject to scathing attacks that I find really really mean. (I don't mean by people here, just in general over the years.) I remember Jewel posting and thanking someone for defending her after a rude comment about her made by some famous guy describing her character "smiling idiotically" and saying that often people don't realise who's lurking.
However I'm not saying we should hide our disappointments about things he (maybe not even him, we assume its the show runner who is in control of EVERYTHING automatically) because I'm sure he might like an honest fan reaction. Overall I think any criticism should be constructive rather than just a simple moan. There is much firefly praise here, but say someone comes here and just clicks on a "what didn't you like about firefly" and just sees chockabloack criticism? There are a few things I didn't like, but the good inifinitely outweighs the bad, and I praise that man every day!
(Just my opinion)
"Okay...I'm confused...I'm angry and I'm armed"
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Personally, I think Jewel is totally adorable and the smile is important to her character. She's an optimist. People who usually object to other people who are like that are usually jaded, bitter and probably don't like themselves too much.
What's so wrong with actually liking life and enjoying other people with no preconceptions. Life would be a hell of a lot less like hell if we could all become like that.
And I'm a very cynical person, so Jewel must've done a good job.
I wasn't happy about the way she was introduced in Out Of Gas, but then I'm old enough to be her father and felt protective of her as much as fancying her lol. Damn, where'd I put me teeth
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Quote:
I love this random, made-up statistic you've got there. 90% of what? Your girlfriend, your mom and your sister?
When the Taliban was in power, women who were raped were stoned to death for committing adultery.
In Thailand, as soon as poor girls hit puberty they are sold into sex slavery, often to Chinese husbands. Those Chinese men often exist only because their parents aborted their sisters, since they are only allowed to have one child and girls are undesirable.
In Nigeria, women are castrated to prevent them from enjoying sex, and therefore making adultery unlikely.
And in Europe, America, and every other place on earth, Wives and daughters are still beaten daily. In my class, the women who aren't virgins are chastized as sluts but the boys are applauded as players. And this is after great improvements all over the world. We can vote now. There is a whole world of people outside your house.
Buffy encourages girls to look at themselves as powerful figures, not to be abused or looked on as meek supporters of their male counterparts.
So now you know one person who thinks the feminist issue is interesting and appealing. It's really a shame you don't know more.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
Yes. Yes, Yes, Yes! Feminism is 'Really Real.' Kudos to any TV show willing to prtray it, without guile. Feminism is integral to Buffy, it's in its very fiber, Buffy cannot be 'too feminist'.
"I'll be in my bunk."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Oh stop it! I haven't smacked anyone yet. Unless it was for fun, of course
:-) I know Channain.... but this thread in general was pretty full with the personal attacks, ehich made me kinda nervous.
Appreciated the response.
Hazel
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Quote:Yes, I know. Has a tendency to cause just about anyone to respond negatively, even if they don't have a mind to normally, dont' you think? Then again, that was probably the point to this thread and the originator who has admitted he likes to "stir things up." Besides, I appreciated the information and the point of view.
Originally posted by britchick:
:-) I know Channain.... but this thread in general was pretty full with the personal attacks, which made me kinda nervous.
Appreciated the response.
Hazel
I had a great aunt Hazel once - one of my grandmother's sisters. She was fiesty.
Fans come and fans go...but zealots are with you until the bitter black end.
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