Is it such a bad thing?

POSTED BY: AngusThermopyle
UPDATED: Thursday, February 3, 2005 19:40
VIEWED: 22097
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ZOID

Friday, January 7, 2005 3:20 PM

My $2.07 (after sales tax) worth:

Jesus was the ultimate humanist: He said the only thing an individual needs to find enlightenment and spiritual salvation is a personal relationship with Him. No other mediator -- church, state or society -- is required. It all springs from the Self, in service to the Lord, along the path He sets your feet upon.

That's a pretty strong statement of belief, and I apologize to anyone whose sensibilities it offends. But if you think you're scandalized, you should have seen the look on the face of the elder when I said it, and the suddenly quiet and thoughtful looks on the faces of the (adult) Sunday school class. I had him and he knew it...

Philosophically,

zoid

P.S.
Yes, I'm a faithful Christian; but, I've got a real problem with the religions of Men. At some point, a man or group of men get around to slicing up The Bible and parceling it out to support their agenda of control. They set themselves up as required go-betweens, a necessary bridge between God and human that is actually more harmful than good.

I again apologize to those who -- at the mere mention of Jesus or religious belief in general -- become infuriated. It's what I believe, and I'm not 'selling it', any more than those who claim agnosticism or atheism as a belief system. (As a distinguished, if elfin Canadian once sang, "If you choose not to decide, You still have made a choice.") I beg your indulgence, to be different.
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

REEQUEEN

Friday, January 7, 2005 4:00 PM

Eli, I try never to put Descartes before the horse.

Sorry. Sometimes I have an inability to not use a lame joke, no matter how old it is.....

Zed - Personally, I am not offended by your statement of belief. It's not "belief" that offends me, it's the luggage that usually comes with it, and as far as I can tell, you've only got a carry-on. I should stop while I'm ahead, huh?

"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi

XENOCIDE

Friday, January 7, 2005 4:08 PM

Got no problem with Christ. A good fellow. Generally god is welcome on my boat. Tends to be christians who ain't. Interesting christian anarcho-syndicalists like yourself excepted. I even left a seat for him at my wedding. He may have stopped by, but I was busy and missed him when I visited his table. Maybe he got sick of sitting with my wife's 'christian' hypocrite cheering section of the family.

Sorry. I got bitter about church types a long time ago, but jesus is just alright with me.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

XENOCIDE

Friday, January 7, 2005 4:15 PM

If I could I'd put Decartes before a horse. Then trample him.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

ZOID

Friday, January 7, 2005 5:13 PM

ReeQueen wrote:

Quote:
...It's not "belief" that offends me, it's the luggage that usually comes with it, and as far as I can tell, you've only got a carry-on...

To carry your playful analogy (metaphor?) only a little farther, temporally: Hopefully, when I get to baggage check there won't be something metallic in the carry-on, which gets me pulled out of the line. I mean, it may be silvery and sharp, but it really has no capacity for harm, and can be useful for clipping the offending edges off of stuff.

Luckily, I've got a good Agent to get me out of such predicaments, and the queue for my departure gate is reported to be quite short...

Allegorically,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

REEQUEEN

Friday, January 7, 2005 7:21 PM

To push it even further: I'm in the smoker's lounge, watching people at the various departure gates, each going to the destination of their choice. I'm just hanging out, trying to decide which destination is best, but mostly just enjoying a nicotine fix.

Hopefully I also have a good book to read.

"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi

ZEEK

Friday, January 7, 2005 7:46 PM

Doesn't anyone else find parts of this discussion funny...in a sad sorta way? People are in here acting like they are accepting of everyone and that it's the high road everyone else should be taking. Then in the same breath they say other cultures are evil and wrong because they don't like the things they do. I'm sorry that some people's actions and motives go against your beliefs but why were you given the all powerful position of deciding what's right and wrong? If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide. If that same culture goes through a revolution and changes the way things work for them, that's all good too. The only time I would say there is any reason to jump in and try to change a culture is when that culture threatens to harm or change another culture. Which puts some of the people in this thread on the bad list in my opinion. Sure it might take some cultures longer than others to get to a state that they actually want to be in. There's also a good chance that some of us could step in and do things to help them along. I'm a believer that people have to learn to do things on their own though. It might take a while and there might be pitfalls along the way, but in the end I think they'll be stronger for it.

Anyway there's my thoughts. No need to buy into them if you don't like them.

MAUGWAI

Friday, January 7, 2005 8:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'm sorry that some people's actions and motives go against your beliefs but why were you given the all powerful position of deciding what's right and wrong? If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide.

Wow.

Then I guess you'd be fine if someone cut your genitals off, if our society said it was OK. You wouldn't want anyone to step in and save you because that might have an adverse effect on society. By stopping genital mutilation. On you.

I do not want to live in your world.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

ZEEK

Friday, January 7, 2005 8:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I'm sorry that some people's actions and motives go against your beliefs but why were you given the all powerful position of deciding what's right and wrong? If a culture decides that gential mutilation is where it's at then that's for them to decide.

Wow.

Then I guess you'd be fine if someone cut your genitals off, if our society said it was OK. You wouldn't want anyone to step in and save you because that might have an adverse effect on society. By stopping genital mutilation. On you.

I do not want to live in your world.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

How am I supposed to know that one? If I was raised to believe it was the right thing to do maybe I would be fine with it. Then again maybe I wouldn't. In which case I should do what I think is right to prevent or all together stop the practice. I wouldn't expect some other country to fight a war for me though.

REEQUEEN

Saturday, January 8, 2005 12:42 AM

You know what? It isn't okay for adults to mutilate children, and I don't give a good goddamn whether or not that messes with somebody's "cultural" privilege. As if there was such a thing.

If the victim in question is an adult, and gives informed consent to have his balls cut off, then fine. Stupid, but fine. But if children are involved - kids who don't have a choice, and generally don't know why they have to go through immense amounts of pain for physical mutilation and disfigurement - then all bets are off.

Go to any site that has information on female genital mutilation, and you will discover that the women who have been mutilated didn't have much informed choice in the matter. It's not like they celebrated a birthday by getting their clitorises cut off with rusty blades. Maybe their parents and older siblings and other family members celebrated, but I hardly think a girl of five understands the "cultural" reasons for her torture.

(According to this site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm, FGM is a social, rather than religious practice.)

Besides which, there is a certain type of propaganda at work with any kind of detrimental practice any culture exhibits. It's part of the nature of the beast. Even if a little girl finds it acceptable to go under the blade, do you really she's fully informed about the consequences? Do you really think she knows how much not only the procedure will hurt, but every subsequent menstrual cycle, urination, and every single act of intercourse? Not to mention other health risks inherent in the procedure (see site linked above).

That's why it's wrong, and that's why I'd say it was wrong for any other culture to do anything of a similar horrible nature.

To address part of what I think you object to, in essence, Zeek:

I'm very judgemental, and I like me that way. I also have the ability to learn and change my mind about stuff, though rarely stuff that involves hurting other people, and never about stuff that involves disfiguring a child for life. I used to try to be nonjudgemental, but that's just so much bushwah. Everybody judges, whether or not they admit it. It's a part of our evolutionary package - the ability to discriminate, make choices, and commit to actions. If we didn't "judge," we'd all still be sitting around, chewing grass. Or something.

Just because a culture is a thousand or so years old, doesn't automatically make it worthwhile. Just because I find certain things about a culture offensive, doesn't mean I think the entire culture is a waste of time, either. I just don't think accepting everything about another culture is necessary (or even particularly desirable), simply by virture of it's age, or the fact that it's not "American" culture. As if there was such a thing.

"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi

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