Is it such a bad thing?
POSTED BY: AngusThermopyle
UPDATED: Thursday, February 3, 2005 19:40
VIEWED: 22097
PAGE 3 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Wow, so much Buffy bashing. Angus, I'm just curious. Do you prefer stories that slide women to the sidelines and let the men do all the fighting? Flip it around and imagine that all the main characters were men and the women were the sidekicks. Nobody would even notice. The feminism is what made that show such an unusual thing when it came out, and as a woman, I was thrilled to see a female hero who didn't have to be an angry butch lesbian to get the job done.
Heroes don't always wear white hats, and villains aren't evil for no reason. Buffy explored this in a way few shows or even movies have ever dared. But perhaps it's a difference in perspective. Some people like their stories black and white. I love it when I'm not sure who the bad guy is. Buffy, and especially Angel, excelled in that kind of thinking.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
No, Maugwai, not a bit of it. My girlfriend and I were just having a very similar discussion about the whole feminist issues that seem to come up on TV and in the other media formats that, strangely, never come up as conflicts in our real daily lives. We were postulating about Mal and Inara and how that could pan out. Obviously if the did get together, which they obviously both want, Mal would of course want not wish Inara to continue with her current career. Being a TV show and fearing to be different (i.e. continuing the p.c. tradition, Inara would probably have a problem with that; but why? If you love someone you find compromises and it isn't a great conflict. I'm not only talking about the woman compromising either. You do what it takes to have the best chance of being together. Being together should become the only caviat. Don't you think?
I know of no-one who thought that the feminism issue interesting or appealing. In fact, the all seem to have found it pretty annoying. And they are 90% women. Feminism isn't really real life, but because people are so influenced by the media, they think it is.
I'd go so far as to say, feminism has done a lot of harm to society, especially in families. I'm all for women being respected and honoured. I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't really mean anything. I support my girlfriend however I can - I'm talking emotionally here, not financial. She is my equal.
And, Buffy did have to have a lesbian in it, she just wasn't butch lol. She was kind of willowy really. That whole lesbian, wicca, godess thing was pretty grating! Shame coz Willow was one of my favourite characters. I liked her ironic, intelligent, nerdy charm.
Hey, who thinks that Wash, is Xander?
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
SMG gives me a rash, as does James Marsters.
Is this the new poster line for the STD campaign?
Got milk? Oh for the ability to photoshop....
"I threw up on your bed"
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
I know of no-one who thought that the feminism issue interesting or appealing. In fact, the all seem to have found it pretty annoying. And they are 90% women. Feminism isn't really real life, but because people are so influenced by the media, they think it is.
I'd go so far as to say, feminism has done a lot of harm to society, especially in families. I'm all for women being respected and honoured. I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't really mean anything. I support my girlfriend however I can - I'm talking emotionally here, not financial. She is my equal.
I love this random, made-up statistic you've got there. 90% of what? Your girlfriend, your mom and your sister?
When the Taliban was in power, women who were raped were stoned to death for committing adultery.
In Thailand, as soon as poor girls hit puberty they are sold into sex slavery, often to Chinese husbands. Those Chinese men often exist only because their parents aborted their sisters, since they are only allowed to have one child and girls are undesirable.
In Nigeria, women are castrated to prevent them from enjoying sex, and therefore making adultery unlikely.
And in Europe, America, and every other place on earth, Wives and daughters are still beaten daily. In my class, the women who aren't virgins are chastized as sluts but the boys are applauded as players. And this is after great improvements all over the world. We can vote now. There is a whole world of people outside your house.
Buffy encourages girls to look at themselves as powerful figures, not to be abused or looked on as meek supporters of their male counterparts.
So now you know one person who thinks the feminist issue is interesting and appealing. It's really a shame you don't know more.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
I love Firefly. I love the whole idea of it. ...
I have only just bought the DVD set and it was my first time seeing it. T'was exceedingly good. I'd recently borrowed all my girlfriend's Buffy sets and watched all seven series, back to back....if Buffy is anything to go by - and Angel according to friends (I haven't seen series 5) - then I'd have to say I'm kind of glad it remains perfect and unspoiled...
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
I don' know. I'm a Firefly Fan not necessarily a Joss Fan. For the sake of discussion let's say you're right. They say that the third time's the charm. Judging by the quality of Heart of Gold,Trash and the script for Dead or Alive, all episodes not aired during the show's abbreeviated run, I think Firefly would have gotten better with age.
edited for formatting
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Feminism doesn't exist in real life? Maybe not, sexism does though. I have to agree with maugwai here. Looking outside of this society women are getting beaten, killed, raped and mamed because they are female. Maugwai talked about Nigeria, I know there are countries in Africa where they perform female genital mutilation, meaning cutting parts of the genitalia and sewing it up leaving enough room to urinate thereby making intercourse so ungodly painful that they don't look at anyone of the opposite sex. Oh, and this procedure happens before puberty. Not sure if that's what Maugwi was talking about.
Luckily most countries aren't so blantant in their sexism, but there's still many stereotypes that aren't going anywhere. I can't go to Thanksgiving dinner at my grandparent's place without some kind of suggestion that I should be in the kitchen. I went to a wedding about a year ago where the entire message was that the man was the leader/protector and the woman was the follower. I'm not kidding when I say that part of the message was literally, "you should make sure to tell her she's beautiful even when she's covered in flour, and EVEN if she's 9 months pregnant" but my favorite was "the man has a difficult job as the leader, but the women's even more difficult as she needs to be patient. If the man isn't leading as fast as you may think he should you need to wait and trust he'll do his job." This is in MN, one of the most liberal states in the nation.
Sexism exist, here and around the world.
As far as feminism in Buffy, yes it is about women being chosen to save the planet. There's a pro-women feel to it, kind of the point, but I guess you're going to have to point it to me as to how season 6 and 7 are any more feminist in nature than the rest. Now, I'm not saying that there wasn't downward turn in season 6 and 7, I was turned off by most of six (loved the musical evil Willow) but the most mortem depression drove me nuts. Season 7 got a little better, but not as good as the first 3. Personally my rating best to worse would be 2,3,1,5,7,4,6. Angel was turned off when they were exploring the "love" between Angel and Cordelia.
But going back to where this thread began (after all this ranting) what Angel and Buffy lacked as compared to Firefly is mystery. Especially in Buffy the characters were right there, you knew who they were and where they came from. Granted Joss' writing is awesome, which gave them depth but there growth came from where they were going not in where they came from. Firefly had the potential to explore so much more of the characters because we don't have so much, especially the secrets that both Book and Inara hold. The whole Blue Sun corporation, the Reavers, just about everything that was in that verse could be dealt with. I'll agree with Zoid that Joss matured as a writer for a TV show, but he also had a certain level of confidence that he didn't have with Buffy. He was able to look into the future of this show believing that he had more than a half of a season. With Buffy it was hard to believe that a TV show based on a failed movie would have any sort of longevity (who knew that it would be reversed- Buffy got 7, Firefly got a half) but with Buffy he didn't start thinking much ahead until season 3.
Anywho, just my thoughts.
Kaylee: Wash, tell me I'm pretty
Wash: Were I unwed I would take you in a manly fashion
Kaylee: 'Cause I'm pretty?
Wash: 'Cause you're pretty
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Quote:
I love this random, made-up statistic you've got there. 90% of what? Your girlfriend, your mom and your sister?Quote:
That was pretty cheap. Of course I meant 90% of the people I know... Did I get you sothat you decided to have a go at my grammar? My girlfriend is 100% woman, thanks all the same.
Are you so naive that you think that beaten women would be allowed to watch such episodes of Buffy? You think they'd say to themselves: "Of course, I've had all those years of martial arts training. I'd forgotten about that..."
I know about those countries you mentioned. Probably a lot more than you do. In most cases you're talking about Islamic regimes that I knew were carrying out these sorts of atrocities long before it became common knowledge. I grew up in the middle east. I also know that everyday men and women are falsly accused of blasphemy for merely saying what they believe (if they aren't Muslim, or convert).
To women and children who are being abused, Buffy will have little or no effect on their lives. That job belongs to you and me. Why does everyone expect TV to educate and change things? We had the most shocking TV ad. at Christmas against drink driving. Who do you think the people this ad had the most impact on? People who didn't drink and drive, of course?
We let TV educate and entertain our kids coz we have things we'd rather be doing. History is taught by Hollywood, morals by Buffy? That would be a very bad thing. You think young girls saw Buffy in a very bad relationship with Spike or Willow get so powerful using the Occult and say: "Oh right, those are bad things"? Of course not. Girls want to be in sexual relationships with Spike, coz he's powerful and a bastard. Since Buffy, Charmed, Sabrina etc, the amount of teenage girls getting into the occult and black magic has gone through the roof. Is that a positive influence?
Yep, I know one person who thinks the feminist issue was interesting and appealing now. Probably a white, middle-classed and liberal?
This world needs people who are willing to give up their time to do something about the issues you raised.
So, you are obviously infuriated about these injustices abroad and in your own country... Yes? What are you doing about it?
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Quote:
Originally posted by dacute1:
Feminism doesn't exist in real life? Maybe not, sexism does though. I have to agree with maugwai here. Looking outside of this society women are getting beaten, killed, raped and mamed because they are female. Maugwai talked about Nigeria, I know there are countries in Africa where they perform female genital mutilation, meaning cutting parts of the genitalia and sewing it up leaving enough room to urinate thereby making intercourse so ungodly painful that they don't look at anyone of the opposite sex. Oh, and this procedure happens before puberty. Not sure if that's what Maugwi was talking about....
Anywho, just my thoughts.
Aren't ism's so very popular? I'm sure you agree with Maugwai. Female circumcision is certainly practiced in many African and Islamist cultures. I'm sorry, making intercourse so ungodly painful? You do know what it's used for right? To stop intercourse. It doesn't so much make it painful as impossible.
I refer you to my answer to Maugwi for other issues as it's really early in the morning here.
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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I certainly didn't find the feminism annoying. I consider myself a feminist, although not one who feels a uniform is necessary in order to identify myself as one. I always enjoyed the fact that both good guys and bad guys in Buffy, Angel and Firefly were women, and women who thoroughly enjoyed being women too. I was slightly annoyed by the Wiccan stereotype lesbians in Buffy, though I felt Willow and Tara's relationship was well handled - as a relationship that happened to be between two women, with all of the usual difficulties that any relationship faces. I felt there was no particular feminist message in their relationship, although naturally the simple fact that they were lesbians equated it with feminism (which is unusual for Joss, he doesn't' usually succumb to stereotypes without pointing out that they're stereotypes first). I believe there was a stronger feminist message in Buffy's several (hetero) sexual partners and obvious enjoyment of sex, and that is again presented in the character of Inara. The truth of the matter is that women are still viewed as either virgins or whores wherever you are on the planet, and the fact that these two strong, female characters explore this social reality - Inara most pointedly - is much more feminist in its intent than Willow and Tara's relationship. (grin) Hope that doesn't put you off Firefly now, Angus.
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If feminism means pro women, then count me as one.
If it means anti something, I don't really like to exclude people, so...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nkyjay:
I certainly didn't find the feminism annoying. I consider myself a feminist, although not one who feels a uniform is necessary in order to identify myself as one. I always enjoyed the fact that both good guys and bad guys in Buffy, Angel and Firefly were women, and women who thoroughly enjoyed being women too. I was slightly annoyed by the Wiccan stereotype lesbians in Buffy, though I felt Willow and Tara's relationship was well handled - as a relationship that happened to be between two women, with all of the usual difficulties that any relationship faces. I felt there was no particular feminist message in their relationship, although naturally the simple fact that they were lesbians equated it with feminism (which is unusual for Joss, he doesn't' usually succumb to stereotypes without pointing out that they're stereotypes first). I believe there was a stronger feminist message in Buffy's several (hetero) sexual partners and obvious enjoyment of sex, and that is again presented in the character of Inara. The truth of the matter is that women are still viewed as either virgins or whores wherever you are on the planet, and the fact that these two strong, female characters explore this social reality - Inara most pointedly - is much more feminist in its intent than Willow and Tara's relationship. (grin) Hope that doesn't put you off Firefly now, Angus.
Not a chance, NkyJay. I love Firefly and was a fan of BTVS and Angel. I think FF is one of the best Sci-Fi series I've ever seen.
I honour women, like them and respect them, but I'm no feminist. I like people, no matter what the sex. I don't like labels.
The thing I guess that annoyed me most about Buffy was how self-indulgent it got. It started out as a bright, funny and witty series and kind of went up its own politically correct
I thought the whole lesbian wicca thing wasn't terribly stereotypical at all. The amount of personal web sites I've seen on the net by women going on about godesses, Avalon, wicca and all that stuff is astounding. They always tend to have pretentious, self-indulgent poetry with awful symbolism too
I prefered Angel, but am waiting for my girlfriend to get the final series. I was a little concerned about the whole Cordy becoming a demon issue though.
It occurs to me that there's a certain amount of hypocracy when it comes to supernatural TV series. For example, when Willow etc, pulled Buffy out of Heaven - later she was having a conversation with a vamp, and he asked if there was any movement on the God issue. She said there wasn't. Who was in Heaven then? What is it she wears round her neck? What does she splash on vamps to burn them? It seems that God has no place in TV, only demons. I guess he just isn't cool enough in the minds of writers.
I think this may have to be my last post on this particular thread. It's gotten far too long and three or four people have missunderstood it. One has even taken it so much to heart (not sure that's the right organ though), that she's taken it upon herself to save all you delicate people and try to get me banned from fireflyfans.
Sad but true. I can still be messaged of course. I'm just gonna leave this thread now because it takes sooooo long to load the page. Must be about 20 feet long. However, I'm going nowhere, unless of course I'm forced to. And if that happens to be the case I won't be too broken hearted about it. It wouldn't be worth sticking around for.
To all those who joined me in entering into a discussion, I'd like to say thanks. I really enjoyed reading your comments. To those who took offence or got pissed about it. I'm sorry you feel that way, and maybe you shouldn't take a (great though it is) TV quite so seriously. Just enjoy it for what it is, great entertainment.
Regards to ALL.
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