Is it such a bad thing?
POSTED BY: AngusThermopyle
UPDATED: Thursday, February 3, 2005 19:40
VIEWED: 22097
PAGE 4 of 9
Bon voyage, Angus, pity it's under less-than-happy circumstances. May your chocolates never have unfortunate fillings.
It would be good if 'feminist' stood simply for being pro-women, but like so many other things, it's often assumed you can't be pro-something without being anti-something else. Isn't it funny how the further left or right you go, the more likely you are to end up meeting in the middle? That's something I always liked in Joss' shows, the number of times that happened. So, who's side were you on again?
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Wow, Angus. You said in your other thread that enjoy stirring things up. So you came here and stirred things up, and when people disagreed with you, you took it personally, made personal attacks and ran for the door.
It seems like you think television should have no meaning because the right people don't watch it or something, or maybe because people shoudn't be watching TV because they should be out saving the world? I didn't really get where you were going with that since you are posting to a fansite for a show you keep saying you like.
As for what I do to help, I belong to UNICEF. I also teach world literature, so for a living I educate teenagers in this area about the problems in the world. Each semester, I make them write letters to governments to show them how they too can have an impact on society. I also run charity drives within my classes. I am white, I am middle-class and I am liberal. I am also very well educated and well-traveled, and I'm not apologizing for that, although I am a little appalled at your predjudice against my particular socioeconomic group.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
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Quote:
Originally posted by maugwai:
Wow, Angus. You said in your other thread that enjoy stirring things up. So you came here and stirred things up, and when people disagreed with you, you took it personally, made personal attacks and ran for the door.
It seems like you think television should have no meaning because the right people don't watch it or something, or maybe because people shoudn't be watching TV because they should be out saving the world? I didn't really get where you were going with that since you are posting to a fansite for a show you keep saying you like.
As for what I do to help, I belong to UNICEF. I also teach world literature, so for a living I educate teenagers in this area about the problems in the world. Each semester, I make them write letters to governments to show them how they too can have an impact on society. I also run charity drives within my classes. I am white, I am middle-class and I am liberal. I am also very well educated and well-traveled, and I'm not apologizing for that, although I am a little appalled at your predjudice against my particular socioeconomic group.
"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."
I am a big fan of the show, and am really looking forward to the movie coming out - and the subsequent series, God willing and studios getting some sense.
I did say I like to start a debate, not for debate's sake, you understand? I'm not a mass debater or anything. I didn't take criticism personally, I took person attacks personally. And I've run for no door. Anyone who knows me, knows I never back down from a fight, at least if a principal's involved. I said I might have to leave, if the person who was requesting my exile got their way.
No, I don't think TV should have no meaning, quite the contrary. I just don't think it should be given too much. For me FF is pure entertainment, well written and acted etc. I think TV can have a very positive effect when used correctly; but let's face it, Mau, it's pretty rare these days with all the reality crap and makeover shows. Actually, you know what the worst show is for being preachy and pretentious? Star Trek TNG! Please don't say you're a big fan or we're off again...
Anyway, as to your socio-economic group, I wasn't being prejudiced, I was making a guess. Glad you're doing something positive to "change the World" and what could possibly be wrong with that?
As I said, I aint going anywhere just now. It was just that my other thread is soooo bloody long now, must be about 10 metres of text.
Cheers for now,
Angus.
May none of your pizzas have unfortunte toppings.
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It's not the television shows we take too seriously, it's the comments about "us" watching the television shows.
While I don't think proprietariness over a show is a pretty thing, one can't help being proprietary when one enjoys something to the extent that I and others have enjoyed Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. I take my own proprietariness with a grain of salt, because I realize the creativity isn't mine, just the enjoyment. With that in mind, I thoroughly enjoyed each and every episode - to a greater or marginally lesser degree - and on re-watching (yes, I have each and every season except for the last one of Angel which is out next month, and has been preordered since November), my enjoyment has risen, because I am more able to see the arcs, the subtleties, and with the commentaries and whatnot, I have more of an insight into what the creative and production teams were doing.
I love having a context in which to put things.
I don't think Firefly would've suffered in quality over more than one season, because I know that Joss Whedon and his team understand character and story development.
That being said, the original topic of this thread really didn't interest me that much - I've discussed the same thing elsewhere, and I really have no patience with nay-sayers and people who think seasons six and seven were somehow lacking in quality because "their" characters underwent changes of which they disapproved. There was a lot that was uncomfortable about those seasons, which is my theory on why people dislike them so much. As for season 4 - Adam was groovy, and the denouement was excellent.
Anyway. I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist. Someone mentioned exclusion, and that's why I define myself that way. I can't stand sexism, I don't care who's doing it. Everyone deserves to be treated equally, but if you're going to act like a prat, I will spank you, hard. I like to spank, and I have many methods for offering correction.
Andrew:
Quote:
I honour women, like them and respect them, but I'm no feminist. I like people, no matter what the sex. I don't like labels.
Labels may be uncool, even incorrect, politcally-sepaking (not that I really care), but labels are what help us sort things from each other. Like I said, I'm a humanist. So, it's fine if you don't like to label yourself, but don't think you're proving your liberality (in a philosophical, not political, sense) when you say you "honour" women. Women don't need to be honoured, Andrew, they need to be treated just like everybody else, but in the good way.
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I'd go so far as to say, feminism has done a lot of harm to society, especially in families. I'm all for women being respected and honoured. I'm not a feminist, but that doesn't really mean anything.
See, this is where you've made your mistake. How has feminism harmed society? What on Earth are you going on about? I don't agree with the stridency feminism often resorts to, but without the genesis of the movement, women would not even be able to vote. Sure, this snip is from a post previous to the one I'm responding to, but even your later post doesn't really indicate a change of heart and/or mind.
It's the "honouring" thing that will get you every time.
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Female circumcision is certainly practiced in many African and Islamist cultures. I'm sorry, making intercourse so ungodly painful? You do know what it's used for right? To stop intercourse. It doesn't so much make it painful as impossible.
More info on female genital mutilation:
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm - the most severe of which is infibulation. This consists of a clitoridectomy - removal of the clitoris so there will never be any orgasm, ever - as well as cutting off the labia, then sewing the raw edges together so that only a small opening is left for urination. Imagine the pain of menses. Many girls die of infection, since this is not generally done in a medically sterile environment.
Now, should the girl survive, and marry - and she will o
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Andrew said:
I honour women, like them and respect them, but I'm no feminist. I like people, no matter what the sex. I don't like labels.
This is what bothers most about the whole post. Andrew doesn't like labels but is willing to use them for others (i.e. liberal, feminist, middle class.) Well here I agree. Labels suck. They are imprecise. But terms can be very useful. Looks to me like we need to clearly define some terms. Especially feminism.
Pardon my hyperbole for a moment but Andrew seems to think that feminism is a movement out of Hollywood that inspires the destruction of family values and promotes lesbianism. REEQUEEN seems to think it is a single movement that, sometimes overzealously, defends women’s rights and battles against the many heinous abuses perpetrated on women.
Guess what. Both of you are a little right. Both of you are very wrong.
Feminism is not a consistent movement. It is not a single philosophy or world view. It is not anti family. It does, in many cases, challenge the 'conservative' patriarchal structure of the 'traditional' family unit. Feminism covers a lot of ground and is a poor term for describing a show like Buffy, though I would say that Joss is a powerful proponent of many feminist ideals, including the 'feminist' idea that women are at least as capable in traditional male roles.
Furthermore; feminism is a very emotional charged word. Elements on the right (read as Rush Limbaugh) have demonized the term. Elements on the left have used it so broadly that it has become vague beyond usefulness. Maybe we should each try saying what we really mean.
Sorry for exceeding my 25 lines ;-)
-Eli
I like to attach my name so that ad hominim attacks can be more personal 
This is what a feminist looks like.
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First of all, will folks please quit capitalizing my entire name? If you can't take the time to actually type it (and to do it correctly: ReeQueen; or simply: Ree), don't bother, just call me That Strange Person Who Disrupts the Train of Discussion (TSPWDtToD), thanks. 
It's rather unnerving to have a simple pseudonym referred to (more than once) in all caps. 'Cause it's actually mean to be Ree, Queen of the Universe, but some forums have limits. Like, they won't allow spaces, capitalization, or punctuation. I dunno. Anyway, it makes me feel as though you're (the general "you," not specifically "you-you") shouting at me and my ears are senstive. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
Xenocide:
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REEQUEEN seems to think it is a single movement that, sometimes overzealously, defends women’s rights and battles against the many heinous abuses perpetrated on women.
I know exactly what feminism means, thanks ever so much. I prefer being a humanist and I've explained why. What we're really discussing here is sexism, whatever Andrew or anybody else thinks to call it. Sexism bothers me, and it cuts both ways. I know the same amount of women who refer to all men as "bastards" and "sonsabitches" (I've been one of them at a few points in my life), as I know men (and women) who think I should be in the kitchen, bearing children (sorry, I'm menopausal now!), and massaging my husband's feet (he massages mine, he's a great coddler). In fact, the last person to exhibit retro-feminism in my presence was my mother, but nobody wants to hear my psychological issues right now.
The word "feminism" isn't merely the sum of it's definition (look up "connotation" and then argue definitions), it is what the word represents, and to me that is a certain stridency that focuses energy on something exclusionary, as opposed to taking care of every human being. It's like saying "Size is a feminist issue," (I quote from The Full Monty, by the way) and ignoring the fact that size issues are actually health issues for everyone.
"Heinous abuses" are, in fact, committed on everybody, no matter what gender, race, age, or religious affiliation. Sometimes, it's the religious affiliation perpetuating the abuses, but that's another thread.
In all honestly, I admire stridency if it's done well (and I like to think I do strident very well), but what truly gets up my left nostril is when that stridency serves no purpose other than to bitch about men. Wah. If a person doesn't like the way he's/she's being treated, he/she needs to do something about it, because that is what needs to be done.
I am every bit as freaked out by the fact that boys were castrated for the Vienna Boys' Choir (and I'm sure there are other, more recent examples, but I'm lazy and not looking it up right now), oh-so-long-ago, as I am by female genital mutilation. I am every bit as revolted by men being raped in jail or in interrogation centers, as I am by the same thing happening to women. Anything that can be done to a woman can be done to a man, and has been.
That is why I think feminism, and all it's connotations, is a separatist issue, and not inclusive. It is why I believe that people need to concentrate on human rights in general, wherever it is needed, rather than splintering political groups working towards their own, exclusive, goals.
And mostly why I'm gonna be Queen of the Universe when I grow up. I realize this may take a long time, which is also why I know I'm going to live forever. Eternity is a long time in which to achieve my goals.
But, that's just me, and I can understand where misapprehension can occur.
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Angus, et al...
I just wanted to toss a couple of pennies in here..
1st of all - you're right about the last 2 years of Buffy. Suuuuucked. Preachy. Lame, lame metaphors (e.g. Magic = Drugs). The feminist propoganda, however, was the basis of the entire show (according to Joss) -- it just came across much better in the early years.
2nd - I think you mentioned God in one of these posts, and the idea of Good v. Evil being tossed aside for shades o' grey later in the series. May I suggest reading-->
Richard Greene and Wayne Yuen (San Jose State University), Why Can’t We Spike Spike?: Moral Themes in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
You can find it at www.slayage.tv, issue #2.
Two philosophy professors dissect the different levels of moral systems found on television, "After school special" on up. Interesting as hell, and you might enjoy.
One last thing to consider: Joss initially didn't want to make seasons 6 and 7. The show was going to finish with Buffy dying and the town getting destroyed. Give him props for the intent, even if he didn't follow through and let the program become, well... 
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Ree:
Quote:
First of all, will folks please quit capitalizing my entire name?
Sorry, but if you don't sign your post how the heck are we supposed to know how you want it formatted. The only place I see it in this thread is in the header...allcaps.
(above edited for brainfart)
Sorry if it is "mean" to be you but you can't be anyone else ;-)
About feminism.
I think it's a little high handed of you to lecture me about connotation when the point (and my pardon if I was unclear) of my previous post was that we are using the connotative (and therfore subjective) meanings of feminism in the posts instead of the denotative meanings.
So in order to practice what I preach these definitions are from Meriam Webster
feminism:
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
Using those definitions I would classify myself as a feminist. Now I agree that in many ways the feminist movement is exclusionary. I only ever went to one meeting of NOW and left because I didn't appreciate the hate directed at me just because I'm a man. But anyway... as a philosophy and as a critical paradigm I am in agreement with feminism.
on the other hand...
humanism:
3 : a doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; especially : a philosophy that usually rejects supernaturalism and stresses an individual's dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason
The first definition was a student of the humanities and under that definition I would consider myself a humanist.
But I imagine you meant the one above. Secular humanism. I was a secular humanist for a while. But I've come to believe that reason has done about as much service to humanity as well religion. It is just one more flawed faith... but i digress.
Some others that I found helpful.
Main Entry: con·no·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "kä-n&-'tA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 a : the suggesting of a meaning by a word apart from the thing it explicitly names or describes b : something suggested by a word or thing : IMPLICATION
2 : the signification of something
3 : an essential property or group of properties of a thing named by a term in logic -- compare
If feminism has seperatist or sexist connotations it is because the right has successfully hijacked the term.
But by definition humanism is about reason and feminism is about equality. I'd mostly rather be a feminist.
Now that I've pulled my own train job on this thread. I apologize. Obviously the flaming cow didn't read much on the site before posting. Fen, in general, and flen, in specific, are anything but sheep. And if we like to say shiny, it is because it is clever and we like clever things.
And crap, we're having fun and we like each other.
Thanks,Ree! This is fun! And again, my apologies to the non ontologists in the group! I love this place, where else could I post 'ontology?'
-Eli
If voting mattered it would they'd make it illegal.
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Eli:
Quote:
Sorry, but if you don't sign your post how the heck are we supposed to know how you want it formatted. The only place I see it in this thread is in the header...allcaps.
(above edited for brainfart)
Sorry if it is "mean" to be you but you can't be anyone else ;-)
Heh. Well, that was what the first paragraph was about....my name and how I prefer to be addressed. It was tongue-in-cheeky of me, and I do know that when you hit "reply with quote" the addressee ends up being all caps. I was just havin' a bit o' fun. No harm done. You-you.
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I think it's a little high handed of you to lecture me about connotation when the point (and my pardon if I was unclear) of my previous post was that we are using the connotative (and therfore subjective) meanings of feminism in the posts instead of the denotative meanings.
High-handed is what I do. Also, see "condescending." I do see where you're coming from, it's just that I disagree on a whole other level. Your self-labelling of "feminist" is fine and dandy, but if you do that, you must allow me my self-label of humanist. All in all, I think men identifying themselves as "feminist" is groovy, I just choose a different route.
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Using those definitions I would classify myself as a feminist. Now I agree that in many ways the feminist movement is exclusionary. I only ever went to one meeting of NOW and left because I didn't appreciate the hate directed at me just because I'm a man. But anyway... as a philosophy and as a critical paradigm I am in agreement with feminism.
And I can agree with that - you see yourself as a feminist, as you understand and define it. I don't, and I think I should be allowed that privilege. That is all. (I always get into the same argument when I make the humanist/feminist distinction, so we're not going over ground that's unfamiliar to me.)
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But by definition humanism is about reason and feminism is about equality. I'd mostly rather be a feminist.
Ah, but here's where you're mistaken - although you posted the lovely dictionary definition of "humanism," I use the term somewhat differently, as I have described. If you can define yourself as a "feminist" because of the philosophy and critical paradigm, it's only fair that I be able to define myself as "humanist" because I want to hijack the term, and make it mean something important to myself.
Humanism was originally part of the Renaissance and Enlightenment period, when artistic and scientific focus was drawn more towards human beings than esoteric subjects (medicine vs. prayer, human potential vs. waiting for the afterlife). It was and is about reason, but that doesn't mean humanism is cold and mechanical. Humanism was about what human beings could accomplish, our potential and responsibility for each other.
I feel that we should all be responsible for ourselves and each other, as human beings. I don't deny a possible spirituality, because I admit I don't know many answers. I just think humans are important, which is why I'm a humanist. It's like a person who likes butterflies is a lepidopterist.
I mean, I could've gone the homo-sapiens-phile direction, but that would've just opened up a whole other can of worms.Quote:
And crap, we're having fun and we like each other.
Thanks,Ree! This is fun! And again, my apologies to the non ontologists in the group! I love this place, where else could I post 'ontology?'
De nada. This is fun - I love words, definitions, and being able to be opinionated in "public." You should see me with stree preachers....
(edited because I thought of something to add after I posted this.)
"There is no grace under pressure for a cat on fire." Cosi
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Well now that I've seen how you define your self labeling humanism, I find it an acceptable label for and interesting person Not that anyone needs my approval for anything. But I'm glad to know your a humanist more of Montesquieu 's stripe than of Descartes’. Descartes was a C student if you ask me. (If your wise you won’t.)
-Eli
If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.
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