Thank you, Barney Frank!

POSTED BY: Kwicko
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 22:08
VIEWED: 18943
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KWICKO

Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:43 PM

Barney Frank at a healthcare town hall meeting...

You can almost see the woman visibly withering and shrinking before your eyes.

Oh, and sorry, Geezer - I know YouTube is one of those radical left-wing sites, but I just couldn't resist.

Edited to fixy linky.

Mike

GEEZER

Thursday, August 20, 2009 1:55 PM

Hey, if you want to post a link to another site with little or no commentary from you, that's fine. But perhaps it would be appropriate for you to stop criticizing others for doing the same thing.

I realize that seeing the words "stop criticizing" written contiguiously in the same sentence probably raises your blood pressure, but it would be nice if you actually discussed the issue once in a while, rather than immediately launching irrevelent personal attacks.

And on that subject, while I admire Barney Frank's retorical skills, and pretty much agree with him, I note he really didn't answer the question.
"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Thursday, August 20, 2009 2:16 PM

Irrevelent?

Okay, you want to discuss "the issue". What issue would you like to discuss? Barney Frank? Is he the issue? "Nazi health care"? Is that the issue? (And what the fuck is "Nazi health care", anyway?} Health care reform? Is that the REAL issue that we should be discussing? Socialism? Is that it?

What, in your estimation, is the issue here? What shall we be discussing?

You say Barney Frank didn't answer the question. Tell me, do you answer every question asked of you, or do you find some questions too ludicrous to respond to, just by dint of how they're framed? Questions such as "Do you support Obama's Nazi health care?" are like asking if you're still molesting children; no answer you give is going to be good, because the question was framed as a set-up to begin with.

So, Geez, discuss the issue. Stop criticizing and start talking.

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, August 20, 2009 4:39 PM

Why is pedophile pimp jew Barney Frank in charge of the bank account of US Congress, that gave away $25-trillion to the Kosher banksters in 9 months?

www.tomflocco.com/fs/PhotographerTied.htm

www.johnnygosch.com aka White House homohooker Jeff Gannon

PS: Hitler was a jew, as were 150,000 top Nazis in WW2. All dictionaries define Semite as ARAB not jew. All dictionaires define Nazi as jew.
www.cassiopaea.org/cass/hitler.htm
www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Ashkenazim.html

Thus Barney Frank is a Nazi. Remember what happened to Brownshirt Ernst Roehm?

BYTEMITE

Thursday, August 20, 2009 4:53 PM

So, if I've got this straight, Hitler had some regiments of Nazi soldiers who were, in fact, Jewish, and this means that not only were all Nazi's pro-Jewish, but that the Nazis ARE Jewish.

And that anyone who is a Jew is therefore a Nazi.

Is this what you're trying to say?

NIKI2

Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:04 PM

Uhhh...I think that "Nazis were Jews" thing deserves a Barney Frank reply, doesn't it?

Saw that last night, LOVED it...and, did you notice the audience booed when she started out and applauded Frank's response?

Maybe the worm is turning, or would that be too much to hope? I'm sick of town halls being shouted down and THEIR free speech stifled, so it was damned refreshing to have Frank respond to the woman exactly as was warranted.

As to the "issue", what he said: "Talking to you would be like talking to the dinner table". She didn't ask relevant questiosn about the healthcare plan, she asked about the "Nazi plan", which has nothing to do with the healthcare reform being attempted. That question got precisely the respones it deserved, IMHO!

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:09 PM

this was funny. Barney is still one of the arch dicks of the world, but still, I had to laugh.

The far right is jumping off the cliff into the twilight zone

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, August 20, 2009 5:11 PM

Actually the idea (I think) is that the Israelis have become much like the Nazis.

SIGNYM

Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:21 PM

So now the entirely false rumor going around is that healthcare reform would allow the Feds to access your bank account.

Shit, man. What does it say when the ONLY ammunition the right-wing can come up with is complete and total fabrication???

And don't you think that after the first couple go-arounds about "death panels" and "Nazi medicine" that right-wingers would become at least a little wary of their right-wing bliars? Apparently not! Their gullibility know no bounds!

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:26 PM

Wulf,

I don't think so. I think that argument could be made, but would be unfair. The Israelis have become very much like Iraq or Iran. The Nazis rounded people up into death camps etc.

But this Nazi comparison is the protest against socialism, I have a conspiracy theory about that, but i'll post it to the more appropriate thread.

KWICKO

Thursday, August 20, 2009 7:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So now the entirely false rumor going around is that healthcare reform would allow the Feds to access your bank account.

Shit, man. What does it say when the ONLY ammunition the right-wing can come up with is complete and total fabrication???

And don't you think that after the first couple go-arounds about "death panels" and "Nazi medicine" that right-wingers would become at least a little wary of their right-wing bliars? Apparently not! Their gullibility know no bounds!

Huh. No surprise there, I'm afraid. After all, if the CARS program was going to hijack your computer, then I'm sure EVERY government program is going to hijack your computer.

Here's the thing, and if you didn't know it already, George W. Bush should have made it ABUNDANTLY clear to you, because he came right out and told you he was doing it: If "the government" wants to poke around your computer, you don't have a firewall secure enough to stop them. PERIOD. At BEST, you might delay them, as Frem has pointed out before. But in doing that, you're also really arousing their interest; what have you got that's so secret you have to hide it behind THAT level of security? So now you've just made yourself MORE of a target.

That is, IF they want to nose around your files. And do you really think they need YOUR computer to access your bank records? Hell, they've already got the bank's computers, via the Patriot Act. That's like saying they need to sneak in and steal your library card to see what books you've checked out. If they wanna know, they go to the source, not the end user.

Sheesh. I'm reminded of a Kliban cartoon, where a professor is whacking a dog on the head with a stick, yelling at the dog, "Think, goddam you - THINK!!!"

Mike

BYTEMITE

Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:28 PM

I think someone should put a WHOLE LOT of security and protection onto a computer that contains nothing but pictures of cute puppies, rabbits, and kittens.

KWICKO

Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think someone should put a WHOLE LOT of security and protection onto a computer that contains nothing but pictures of cute puppies, rabbits, and kittens.

YEEESSSSSS!!!!

Now you're thinking like an anarchist, Byte.\

And I'll bet you money that Frem has already done just that. If he ever pops up with a "real" e-mail address or contact info, I guarantee it will lead nowhere but to a box full of kittens, digitally speaking.

That's brilliant, really. It's also why I tend to pepper my e-mails and phone conversations with words like "bomb" and "explode" and "jihad" and the like. It's not like I think anyone's REALLY going to do anything or pay particular attention to me, but if they really want to, who am I to argue? And while they're at it - and claiming not to be - why not just go ahead and make sure that if they want to waste time and money looking at me and mine, I make sure that they waste a LOT of time and money digging up what, in the end, will amount to nothing at all.

And as Frem says, I say that in the full hope that they'll see it and read it, because even me being so brazen about it, they won't believe me.

Listen - you can almost hear the gears grinding as the machine chokes on its innards and gasps to a crawl...

Mike

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:11 PM

BOMB!! JIHAD JIHAD! HILLARY CLINTON IS A SKANK!!!!!!!!!!!

Think I got Big Brothers attention?

KWICKO

Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:24 PM

Actually, Wulfie, you got their attention when you said a .308 round would decide whether Obama was the President or not...

Hint: The idea is to get the Echelon software to stumble and say, "Huh?" As such, dropping innocuous words into everyday conversation can do that, and then a human resource has to actually look or listen before ascertaining that this is all innocent chatter.

Talking about the President and referencing specific rifle rounds? That gets the attention of the Secret Service. Hope you life really IS in order, 'cause they can dig as long and hard as they want. That pressure in the roof of your mouth? That's the Secret Service up your ass...

Mike

NIKI2

Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:33 PM

Quote:
And don't you think that after the first couple go-arounds about "death panels" and "Nazi medicine" that right-wingers would become at least a little wary of their right-wing bliars? Apparently not! Their gullibility know no bounds!

Actually, Sygnm, you're right about their gullibility. But only because they WANT to believe the worst. There are some who simply do not want Obama to be President, do not want his administration to do ANYTHING good, cannot believe that every single thing they do is not intended to harm innocent Americans in SOME way...

America is having a lot of trouble accepting change, especially the big change of a Black man in the White House. That's behind it for a lot of them; some are just dumb/ignorant Repubs who are incapable of thinking for themselves, some are ignorant people who mistrust the government whatever it does, etc.

Fear takes away a lot of independent thinking. How else would we have let Bush get away with everything he did?

________________________
Together we are more than the sum of our parts

BYTEMITE

Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:45 PM

Well, I probably deserve that today, need a good kick in the backside. I still maintain that government isn't trustworthy, and if something ends all screwed up by this health plan bill, isn't going to do much for my non-existent faith in them.

I maintain that if the public at large hadn't trusted Bush and had been wary of government back when he was in office, we might not have gone along with Iraq.

I mean, I sure didn't and I didn't support the war from the very point Colin Powell went to speak to the UN on.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:47 PM

Quote:

And I'll bet you money that Frem has already done just that. If he ever pops up with a "real" e-mail address or contact info, I guarantee it will lead nowhere but to a box full of kittens, digitally speaking.

That's brilliant, really. It's also why I tend to pepper my e-mails and phone conversations with words like "bomb" and "explode" and "jihad" and the like. It's not like I think anyone's REALLY going to do anything or pay particular attention to me, but if they really want to, who am I to argue? And while they're at it - and claiming not to be - why not just go ahead and make sure that if they want to waste time and money looking at me and mine, I make sure that they waste a LOT of time and money digging up what, in the end, will amount to nothing at all.

And as Frem says, I say that in the full hope that they'll see it and read it, because even me being so brazen about it, they won't believe me.

Listen - you can almost hear the gears grinding as the machine chokes on its innards and gasps to a crawl...

No comment. All such information is in strict confidence which I respect.

I think Frem is angry at me at the moment, we had a small disagreement, and I think I told him some news he didn't want to hear. I knew I was doing it, but I also know that it's just that sort of news that sometimes you need to hear.

Frem, My point was simple: Not everything is an evil conspiracy, some things are just incompetence and corruption. Still, there's valuable information there, from a survival point of view, and sure, some of it may have been provided by someone we traditionally view as an enemy, and really, no change there, but no one is right or wrong 100% of the time, whether that's said corporation or little old me.

KWICKO

Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:48 PM

Quote:
Posted by Niki2:
...some are ignorant people who mistrust the government whatever it does, etc.

Not all who mistrust the government are ignorant, Niki. I don't trust the government, but I trust for-profit healthcare even less. They've already proven that they're completely willing to throw people to the wolves completely in the interests of upping their profits. Why would I ever believe they'll STOP doing that or do it for less profit?

So while I don't trust the government, I have a bit more trust that they're not going to sell me off to the best bidder.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, I probably deserve that today, need a good kick in the backside. I still maintain that government isn't trustworthy, and if something ends all screwed up by this health plan bill, isn't going to do much for my non-existent faith in them.

I maintain that if the public at large hadn't trusted Bush and had been wary of government back when he was in office, we might not have gone along with Iraq.

I mean, I sure didn't and I didn't support the war from the very point Colin Powell went to speak to the UN on.

You shouldn't be kicked in the ass for that. You should embrace it. I knew Bush was lying the second he said we were going to wage war on "terror", because you can't declare war on an emotion. If he had said we were going to bomb the living fuck out of Afghanistan, or the Taliban, or just Al Qaeda, in direct retaliation for 9/11, I'd have said, "Go get 'em!" In fact, I did say that. But he decided he wanted to kill the idea of terrorism, and I think rather than kill the idea, he propagated it and made it more popular. Bush became the best recruiting tool Al Qaeda has ever had, and then Iraq only added to that.

Mike

RIPWASH

Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
America is having a lot of trouble accepting change, especially the big change of a Black man in the White House. That's behind it for a lot of them; some are just dumb/ignorant Repubs who are incapable of thinking for themselves, some are ignorant people who mistrust the government whatever it does, etc.

You know . . . the only people I hear making a big stink about a black man being in the White House - the ones playing the race card, so to speak - are the Democrats. I know not a single person personally who has trouble with Obama's skin color. Doing so would show and extreme lack of intelligence and high level of stupidity. I know, I know "That describes Republicans to a tee!"

Wrong.

Saying that all Republicans or conservatives (or as you said, "a lot of them") are that way makes one guilty of needlessly lumping an entire group into the same category just because of the stupid, mindless actions of a minuscule percentile of that group. Much like if someone like me were to say that a lot of liberals are brain-dead, pot-smoking hippie socialists. Obviously, that is not the case and I don't advocate that myself.

So what I'm saying is please don't make such broad generalizations.

Or at least admit that there are also dumb, ignorant Dems who can't think for themselves either.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

MAL4PREZ

Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:59 PM

Mike - threads like this are the reason I can never stop lurking here. I'd have missed this little gem otherwise.

Lord bless Barney Frank! (Not something I ever expected to say...) This is how the Dems should have been responding to this nonsense all along.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

SPOOKI

Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:00 PM

"just dumb/ignorant Repubs who are incapable of thinking for themselves"

Just so you know. The woman Frank was chastising is a dumb/ignorant lib not a conservative. You already knew that and intentionally left that out, or you are just ignorant. I'll go with the latter as my guess.

As to RIPWASH's comment to you.

"You know . . . the only people I hear making a big stink about a black man being in the White House"

Spot on. Nicky, Why do you have a problem with the color of his skin? YOU are the one bringing it up. YOU are the one projecting your issues on others. If you really think that is why people are protesting Obama then.... Well, I guess I'll chalk it up to ignorance again.

Get a clue please. Life will be so much better if you do.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:19 PM

Quote:
And I'll bet you money that Frem has already done just that. If he ever pops up with a "real" e-mail address or contact info, I guarantee it will lead nowhere but to a box full of kittens, digitally speaking.

*laughing so hard he can barely breathe*
Mikey, you asshole!

Outing my honey-box like that!
*giggle*

I'm quite cruel about it too, it's a Compaq ProSignia 486DX50 with a mere 32MB of RAM - running WIN98 unpatched with all the bells and whistles, plus the security, and a bad network card with deliberate protocol errors and a long, LONG timeout, bwahahahahaha

And yes, it's mostly pictures of cats, bulked out with one of my ex's faerie pictures collection as well, and a bunch of the lamest fanfics ever with suspicious lookin filenames.

If trying to hack the box doesn't drive you to suicide, succeeding WILL!
*laughing soooo hard*

Quote:
And as Frem says, I say that in the full hope that they'll see it and read it, because even me being so brazen about it, they won't believe me.

Oh yes, there's some low-tech tricks you can use to detect monitoring without folk even realizing it, like leaving your cellphone next to your PC speakers - if you start getting blip-blip-blip interference other than incoming call and the occasional tower ping, someones riding your line, see ?

And I am merciless cause one of my conversational "weapons" when I want someone to go the hell AWAY is to either start discussing two stroke engines, or rambling on about the behavior of my ex's cats - which for anyone forced to listen to, it just downright cruel, innit ?
(Hondas, Mikey, yesss ?)

Quote:
Listen - you can almost hear the gears grinding as the machine chokes on its innards and gasps to a crawl...

Ah the glorious sound of monkeywrenching, grind, grind, CRUNCH.

Dream: Not at all, thing is you misunderstood where I was going with that.
There ISN'T some great grand conspiracy, any more than a bunch of crabs walking in lockstep is a hivemind.
But because they respond identically to the same stimulus, it can look that way - yet in truth it's not one big plot but a whole bunch of smaller ones all run by people who think much the same compounded by petty turf issues, office politics, ass covering and general human jackassery, which is why it is both so exploitable and so terribly inefficient.

I was just simplifying the viewpoint for the sake of making the explaination concise and comprehendable, you can only layer so much meaning into the same phrases before folk start lookin at you like you've grown an extra head - which I think is a major contributor to your own communication problems.

There's also my disinclination to really discuss something so far out of my knowledge bases that I cannot even usefully comment without sounding like a moron.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
So, if I've got this straight, Hitler had some regiments of Nazi soldiers who were, in fact, Jewish, and this means that not only were all Nazi's pro-Jewish, but that the Nazis ARE Jewish.

And that anyone who is a Jew is therefore a Nazi.

Is this what you're trying to say?

I just read what the jews say. Jewish historians on History Channel say all the top Nazis were jewish, and Hitler Shicklegruber was a Rothschild, heir to half the world's bankster wealth That's why Adolf turned his home village in Austraia into an artillery practice range to destroy his birth records and cemetary. Only the Separdic Semitic jews were terminated. Hitler and the 150,000 Nazis were non-Semitic Khazar AshkeNazi white European jews.

By jewish Dr Rigg winner of CIA's Colby Award
www.jewishbookmall.com/shop/asinsearch_B000V6LSQI/Hitler+s+Jewish+Sold
iers.html

Somebody outa ask Barney about his Franklin Coverup and dead pimp roommate.

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
-Old Dead Guy

BYTEMITE

Thursday, August 20, 2009 11:59 PM

Kwicko: The "war on terror" thing is actually why I had issues when we went into Afghanistan. Though I don't often say that, because people tend to get REALLY REALLY MAD when you say going into Afghanistan wasn't necessary. >_>

I knew something was up when we did declared war on terror, not the Taliban, and turns out we never really had an exit plan. Plus, sneaking suspicion that Osama bin Laden is dead.

I painted a picture when I was in high school, a faded Osama bin Laden in front of the word "Terrorism" in big bold red letters, and called it "Endless War on a Faceless Ideal."

I'm pretty sure no one in my class got it. :/

Once again, 1984, Brave New World, and Fahrenheit 451. Really, really should be required reading for any high school student, because they plainly show how war can be used to both distract and motivate the public, as well as economic stimulus. But then, we're not interested in making smart high school students with the ability to think critically.

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 12:27 AM

Quote:
Posted by RIPWash:

Much like if someone like me were to say that a lot of liberals are brain-dead, pot-smoking hippie socialists. Obviously, that is not the case and I don't advocate that myself.

So what I'm saying is please don't make such broad generalizations.

Ripper, I love you, man. But I can assure you I'm not brain-dead.

Quote:

Or at least admit that there are also dumb, ignorant Dems who can't think for themselves either.

Ummmm... I take it you HAVE heard of Nancy Pelosi, yes? Harry Reid? Name ring a bell?

Niki, since you're newish 'round these parts, you should probably know that I pretty much despise Nancy and Harry, and consider them the root of what's WRONG with the Democratic party as a whole. That said, I *am* a pretty dyed-in-the-wool Democrat.

And while RIPWash and I are about 180º apart politically, we generally get along quite well in spite of our differences. Watch him, because he's disarming as hell, and quite respectful 99% of the time.

Mike

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 21, 2009 12:29 AM

I would throw Homage to Catalonia on that pile of recommended reading as well, cause not only were those events within the very crucible of thought which lead to the later books - it's also a rare first person account of what happened in Catalonia, as even the bitterest of enemies, Communists and Fascists, saw the seed of a greater threat and allied in crushing it.

Unless we change how people think and feel, any real Anarchist movement in the near future will need an extreme amount of both devotion and firepower, cause every Government on the planet will see them as a threat and act accordingly.

-F

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Mike - threads like this are the reason I can never stop lurking here. I'd have missed this little gem otherwise.

Lord bless Barney Frank! (Not something I ever expected to say...) This is how the Dems should have been responding to this nonsense all along.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

I appreciate that a lot coming from you, Mal. And yeah, Barney just kills me. Another of my favorite lines of his was when he remarked of Bush's last-minute Wall Street bailout, "It's the biggest hail-mary in the history of hails OR Marys."

Ya gotta love him.

Mike

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 12:43 AM

Quote:
Posted by Fremdfirma:

And I am merciless cause one of my conversational "weapons" when I want someone to go the hell AWAY is to either start discussing two stroke engines, or rambling on about the behavior of my ex's cats - which for anyone forced to listen to, it just downright cruel, innit ?
(Hondas, Mikey, yesss ?)

Hondas indeed. I can, with a little prodding, talk for hours about gear ratios, which final-drive ratios came in which cars in which markets, which ones were available with limited-slip differentials, etc.

And that's without even touching on camshafts, indexing, overlap, or VTEC. A few minutes in, and even car guys' eyes begin to glaze over!

And the funniest part is, if I *was* passing along anything in the way of plans or real information that pertained to anything imminent, it would be so buried in REAL, VERIFIABLE Honda specifications that no one would even be able to ferret it out.

Who needs codes when you've got the factory manuals to a major auto company?

Mike

RUE

Friday, August 21, 2009 3:07 AM

I thought there would be more threads about Robert Novak. I read a number of posts elsewhere that said - good riddance to bad rubbish. And a few that said - why would you be happy someone is dead ?

There is a point to this: sometimes it's good to speak the plain truth - no matter how uncomfortable of unfriendly it may seem.

Why SHOULDN'T Barney Frank call out the liars ?

I say HELL YES ! Go for it, man !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 3:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I thought there would be more threads about Robert Novak. I read a number of posts elsewhere that said - good riddance to bad rubbish. And a few that said - why would you be happy someone is dead ?

There is a point to this: sometimes it's good to speak the plain truth - no matter how uncomfortable of unfriendly it may seem.

Why SHOULDN'T Barney Frank call out the liars ?

I say HELL YES ! Go for it, man !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Bingo. Since when is it rude to tell someone who's lying that they're lying? I mean, isn't the lying rude in the first place?

It drives me bonkers to listen to politicians mumbling these little half-hearted corrections, almost as if they're apologizing. "Well, I think my esteemed colleague is mistaken..." "I'm afraid my good friend here has been misinformed..." "My opponent misspoke by saying that..."

Bullshit. Call it, and call 'em on it. "That's a lie, sir, and you know it." "Excuse me, ma'am, but you're spreading untruths." "Why are you lying to me about this?" "You need to get some better sources for your information, because your current ones are liars and hacks. By their own words, they're neither journalists nor reporters, but entertainers[i/] who don't think they should be responsible for the things they say."

Mike

DREAMTROVE

Friday, August 21, 2009 4:15 AM

Mike,

And rightly so, but you should mistrust all modern healthcare. The world's number one human killer is socialized medicine, statistics are clear, but second is for profit healthcare, followed by democide. It's safe to say that healthcare and govt. are in a close match for worst threats, when they get together, it's a disaster. The world's best healthcare, statistically, is indian ayurvedics, witchdoctors in general do better than doctors, the world's worst healthcare system is the soviet system, but africa has some doozies.

Interesting comment on the age factor, I haven't thought about it in a while. I'm guessing BM is a fair amount younger.

Rip, Niki

Not to butt in, but word of advice... Skip the partisan debate, it's a waste of time.

Quote:
SPOOKI
The woman Frank was chastising is a dumb/ignorant lib not a conservative.

Not that I care, but it does make the story more interesting, so: source?

Frem,

Yes, I believe your HD is full of cat pics, I think you've posted a number of them, Faeries? (kudos on the correct spelling)

Quote:

Dream: Not at all, thing is you misunderstood where I was going with that.
There ISN'T some great grand conspiracy, any more than a bunch of crabs walking in lockstep is a hivemind.
But because they respond identically to the same stimulus, it can look that way - yet in truth it's not one big plot but a whole bunch of smaller ones all run by people who think much the same compounded by petty turf issues, office politics, ass covering and general human jackassery, which is why it is both so exploitable and so terribly inefficient.

I think we look at this one differently. I see this sort of operation in layers:

1. There's the research layer. In this case, these guys are ace cancer researchers, and their contribution can save lives, including my own. Don't think I didn't take apart what they did and start analyzing it right away and seeing how to apply it, I did, I FWDed it to some friends of mine and we started working on alternate solutions (an applicable solution to the sick would be more useful than a vaccine)

2. There's the parent company. These are businessmen, and they are about money, they fund, and want some product they can sell. In this case, Merck, is always manipulating every angle for the most bang for their buck. They've done so much bad science in the past that I think the leadership here doesn't know what they're doing except for one thing: They know it's more profitable to buy a politician than to do better testing. They cut corners and hire k-street hacks.

3. The delivery system, which is the medical establishment. They're generally of borderline competence, and understand far less science than you would think. I rarely have a doctor who understands the subject better than I do, and when I find one, I cling to him, because these guys are assets. The fakers should be identified and dropped immediately. You don't need to be a scientist to do so, you just need to know the right questions to ask. If a psychiatrist stares at you blankly when you talk about receptor sensitivity, or gives you psychological explanations for memory loss, move on, find someone else.

In this case, I'd say I'm sure that the fuck ups were in groups 2 and 3. Specifically I can tell you that the immune reponse problem, which was the majority of deaths, was the result of the moron who changed the target age group without retesting. I suspect this moron was at Merck. Anyone with the virus who then got the vaccine would go into shock. That's a given. No 7-10yo would have the virus, so none in the initial testing group showed this reaction. If someone had seen this, they would have known to lower the dose or change the venue from shot to pill or patch.

Group three, the misconduct may have caused some of the above, but was certainly responsible for the secondary infections like meningitis, or any combo-vaccine problems.

The person here who really understands this subject well besides myself is Kathy. If you are not sure of the science

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 21, 2009 11:34 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia

Re: Faeries.

Yes, well, one of my ex's had a thing for Fae, given she practically was one, and it was no great benefit to our relationship that when it came right down to it we were on opposing sides of that belief, given that she was Seelie and I happen to be Unseelie, since I am a Misanthrope.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classifications_of_fairies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misanthropy

And so, I found her collection of pictures useful for something, at least, we're talkin nausea inducing, here.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TastesLikeDiabetes

I always did attract the crazy ones, and dealin with me and my world does their sanity no favors at all, alas.

-F

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 11:47 AM

Quote:

You can continue to be a liberal, but if you ask me, you're more of a libertarian.

You're probably right, but I decline to self-identify as such precisely because of the people who *claim* to be libertarian; I'd rather be thought of as a lefty loon than be associated with some of these so-called libertarians. From what I've seen, libertarians seem to lean pretty hard to the right on most issues, and when it comes to social issues, I veer pretty strongly left.

Mike

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Kwicko: The "war on terror" thing is actually why I had issues when we went into Afghanistan. Though I don't often say that, because people tend to get REALLY REALLY MAD when you say going into Afghanistan wasn't necessary. >_>

Exactly. If Bush had just come right out and said, "We's gonna hurt them sumbitches what hurted us." I'd have had more respect for him, both for his honesty and for his actually using a more-or-less complete sentence for the first time in his adult life. If he'd said we're taking Bin Laden no matter what, and we're not stopping until he's provably dead or captured, I feel that OBL would have been done with in a short amount of time. Either he'd have been ratted out, or he'd have turned up captured in some other little out-of-the-way country.

Quote:

I knew something was up when we did declared war on terror, not the Taliban, and turns out we never really had an exit plan. Plus, sneaking suspicion that Osama bin Laden is dead.

Sneaking suspicion and lack of a body makes for a perfect Goldstein, doesn't it? And I'm right there with ya.

Quote:

I painted a picture when I was in high school, a faded Osama bin Laden in front of the word "Terrorism" in big bold red letters, and called it "Endless War on a Faceless Ideal."

I'm pretty sure no one in my class got it. :/

I'm pretty sure you're right, on both counts.

Quote:

Once again, 1984, Brave New World, and Fahrenheit 451. Really, really should be required reading for any high school student, because they plainly show how war can be used to both distract and motivate the public, as well as economic stimulus. But then, we're not interested in making smart high school students with the ability to think critically.

Are they not required reading anymore? That makes me sad. Those books changed my world, even though I rebelled at the idea of being "made" to read ANY book. It's not that I don't love reading, it's just that I don't like being forced to read something; I'd rather come to it on my own.

That said, I'm damned glad these books WERE forced on me.

Mike

RIPWASH

Friday, August 21, 2009 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
SPOOKI
The woman Frank was chastising is a dumb/ignorant lib not a conservative.

Not that I care, but it does make the story more interesting, so: source?

Well, I don't know for certain how reputable this site is, but this seems to indicate that this woman was a supporter of Lyndon LaRouche - a supposed communist who has tried to associate himself as a Democrat.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/seton-motley/2009/08/12/nbc-cnn-msnbc-all
-assign-communist-larouches-obama-hitler-poster-conse

But I read elsewhere that the Democratic party wants nothing to do with him.

Be that as it may, if this is true, this woman is not a conservative as she is being made out to be.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

RIPWASH

Friday, August 21, 2009 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Posted by RIPWash:

Much like if someone like me were to say that a lot of liberals are brain-dead, pot-smoking hippie socialists. Obviously, that is not the case and I don't advocate that myself.

So what I'm saying is please don't make such broad generalizations.

Ripper, I love you, man. But I can assure you I'm not brain-dead.

Quote:

Or at least admit that there are also dumb, ignorant Dems who can't think for themselves either.

Ummmm... I take it you HAVE heard of Nancy Pelosi, yes? Harry Reid? Name ring a bell?

Niki, since you're newish 'round these parts, you should probably know that I pretty much despise Nancy and Harry, and consider them the root of what's WRONG with the Democratic party as a whole. That said, I *am* a pretty dyed-in-the-wool Democrat.

And while RIPWash and I are about 180º apart politically, we generally get along quite well in spite of our differences. Watch him, because he's disarming as hell, and quite respectful 99% of the time.

Mike

Aw shucks, ya big palooka! Right back atcha!

So you only denied one of those . . . you're too clear headed to be on the marijuana, but I'm still on the fence about you being a hippie . . . Socialist? Well . . . .

You and I have agreed on Pelosi and Reid. They're blemishes to be sure.

And as for your last statement. All I can say is that is a pretty big compliment and I appreciate it.

*********************************************

"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

ADMIRALDIGBY

Friday, August 21, 2009 1:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

.

America is having a lot of trouble accepting change, especially the big change of a Black man in the White House. That's behind it for a lot of them; some are just dumb/ignorant Repubs who are incapable of thinking for themselves, some are ignorant people who mistrust the government whatever it does, etc.

________________________
Together we are more than the sum of our parts

Some people who dislike Obama's policies aren't racists .

In fact most are not racists .

But that's a lie you can't let go of .

So , as you've said elsewhere about lies and the repeating of , keep it up .

WULFENSTAR

Friday, August 21, 2009 1:45 PM

http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

You KNOW socialized health care is bad, when they are going to DETROIT to get treatment....

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 2:15 PM

Quote:

http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

You KNOW socialized health care is bad, when they are going to DETROIT to get treatment....

Is that how you see it?

To me, it looks at least as likely that the hospitals are gladly taking in Canadians - and courting their business - because they know they'll get paid for services rendered - something they absolutely CAN NOT be assured of under the current American system, even if the Detroiters that come through the door are some of the few lucky enough to have "insurance".

Guess it's all in your point of view, eh?

My dad had cancer a couple years ago. His doctor sent him to Scott&White in Killeen for treatment. By your logic, that proves that the for-profit hospitals in both San Angelo and San Antonio are so bad that they have to send people to Killeen for basic treatment.

Is that what you're saying? Do hospitals and doctors not routinely send people to other places with more specialized abilities? If you travel across the country to the Mayo Clinic for treatment, does that prove that no other provider in the nation is worth having around or keeping open?

If I were the Canadian government, and there was a person under my care who would benefit from services that are available in Detroit that may not be readily available in Windsor, why wouldn't I send the patient there? You're saying I should just tell them to wait, and hopefully not die, while I build a specialized medical center to focus on their particular ailment?

Mike

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 2:27 PM

Ha! Reading the responses to the article, I came across this:

Quote:
Here is the latest report of obesity and diabetes:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122405/Obesity-Diabetes-Across-States-Clear
-Relationship.aspx

Hmm...9 out 10 of the highest obesity states are red states. 8 out of 10 least obesity states are blue states. One could make the leap that majority of obese people are conservatives.

So being a conservative is now correlated to unhealthiness! That's awesome!

It's also funny that - I believe it was Rue who linked the study some time back - "red" states get far more federal money paid to them than they take in in taxes, while "blue" states pay far more to the federal government than they get back.

So not only is conservatism unhealthy - it's also SOCIALIST! You're redistributing our wealth! You're spreading the liberals' wealth to cover conservatives' own poor lifestyle choices!

Mike

RUE

Friday, August 21, 2009 2:46 PM

Wulf

I KNOW you don't read my posts, you only go by what you assume. But, do you even read ---- AT ALL ?

Your OWN article:

""I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry."

To me, that sure looks like a system that is making sure everyone gets the care they need.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 2:46 PM

Quote:

Some people who dislike Obama's policies aren't racists .

In fact most are not racists .

I'm sure some of them really aren't racists. But the people they let do their talking for them sure come across that way, and those "non-racists" aren't doing a whole helluva lot to distance themselves from them, are they?

How many times have I heard one Republican senator or representative after another asked whether Obama is an American, and they mumble and dissemble, and their answers are something along the lines of, "Well, AS FAR AS *I* KNOW..." which is a way of pandering to the basest racism of their constituents, who are utterly convinced that a black man with a name like "Obama" can't POSSIBLY be a "real" American. I mean, hey, AS FAR AS *I* KNOW, you're not really a child molester, no matter what others may say.

Now, what's the association your mind makes when you hear something like that? If you're like most people, you're probably pissed because you think I just called you a child molester. I didn't - I said that as far as I know, you're NOT. It's a way of saying it without actually saying it, and it's dirty pool.

You know how you combat racism and prove you aren't a racist? By denouncing it, in no uncertain terms. By confronting it, by getting in people's faces and asking them "Why do you think that?" "Why are black people automatically assumed to be inferior by you?" You DON'T combat racism by listening to someone like Wulf say "Black people just can't give gifts,", and then react to that kind of crap by laughing it off and going, "Heh - good one."

You want me to believe that conservatives aren't racist? Stop hanging out with racists; stop supporting them, stop defending them, and get the hell away from them. Tell them they aren't helping you, and that you don't want their support for your cause, because they hurt more than they could ever possibly help, and the besmirch you and other non-racists and blur the issue.

You don't fight racism by enabling it or encouraging it. You fight it by confronting it and fighting against it. You have a right to believe that some people are just automatically inferior to others for no other reason than the color of their skin, and I have an absolute right to mock you incessantly if you believe that.

Ain't America grand?

Mike

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, August 21, 2009 2:57 PM

Indeed.

Funny thing, despite the IMHO overblown reputations of Univ of MD Shock Trauma, Johns Hopkins and the "big name" places - you know where hands down the BEST ortho surgeon I've ever had the fortune to meet works out of?

Harbor Hospital, the podunk little slapdash outfit on the northern border of AA county and Baltimore city, on the edge of the ghetto collectively known as the forgotten lands (Brooklyn/Curtis Bay) - and the hospital itself is nowhere you'd wanna spend an hour, much less recovery if you can help it...

But the guy is hands down awesome, if he wanted to the crazy old coot could probably build his own frankensteins monster - and he gets along REAL well with me and my lunatic ideas about bed rest and physical therapy, to the point of helping rig up a sling between my handlebars so I could prop the much abused leg in between em and still ride my trike - and when it become undeniable it was beyond saving, he managed to work around the tremendous damage and take it off below the knee, which every other doc said was impossible.

Course, thankfully he didn't have much respect for them anyways, cause apparently if one doctor works on you, even if he dumps you, any doctor that works on the same condition after that can get in some kinda legal hassle with him over it, and that was another stumbling block to treatment which he smashed flat by simply not giving a shit what they thought about it.

Anyhows, when it comes to medical care and procedures, sometimes the guys REALLY in the know work out of some damn strange places, so I wouldn't put too much credence into the story, especially as it's run by one of two papers here with a downright pyschotic level of bias.

The Freep and DetNews have about the credibility of the Weekly World News, or PirateNews when it comes to the crunch, because they get their marching orders from Corporate America and the GOP, in that order, facts notwithstanding.

I'd no more take their unsupported word for something than I would a Fox News "expose" on how MSG is good for you.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 2:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Wulf

I KNOW you don't read my posts, you only go by what you assume. But, do you even read ---- AT ALL ?

Your OWN article:

""I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry."

To me, that sure looks like a system that is making sure everyone gets the care they need.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Yup, being that that hospital is most likely a for-profit enterprise, it only makes sense that they'd court patients they KNEW they were going to get paid for treating. They have to treat people who show up in the emergency room, so the poor and uninsured will go that route.

The insured are a real problem for hospitals - hospitals want to get paid for their services, and insurance companies are for-profit enterprises, too, and have entire departments aimed at denying payments and claims - they'll try to hit you up for it, as the premium-paying patient, but they'll also try to hit up the hospital to drop the price or negotiate it down. So while your treatment might cost $25,000.00, the insurance company may try to bill you for as much of that as they can, AND they may try to negotiate with the hospital to pay less than that amount - but they won't tell either of you that they're doing that. So say they hit you for $20,000 of that bill, and agree to pay the hospital only $10,000 for the treatment. Of the $25,000 the hospital told YOU it would cost, the insurance company took $20k from you and gave $10k to the hospital, and pocketed an extra $10k *in addition to your premiums that you've been paying all this time*!

As an added bonus, you'll probably also be dropped by that insurance company, and your illness will now be a "pre-existing condition" that no insurance company will cover for the next few years...

Awesome system, right? Why would anybody want to do it any other way?

Mike

RUE

Friday, August 21, 2009 3:21 PM

"They have to treat people who show up in the emergency room, so the poor and uninsured will go that route."

Side note:

If you come under your own steam - they cannot turn you away. (Of course you may WAIT 12 hours to be seen for your sore throat.)

If you come by ambulance they CAN turn you away. B/c you are being stabilized they can claim to not be neglecting you. People have gone round and round and round getting bounced from one ER to another - and insurance status is one of the things they DID look at while they decided who got stuck with the hot potato. Which could be you. Some people spent 8 hours en-route --- when the nearest ER was 10 minutes away. Some people have died as a result.

Generating that absurdity - THAT'S how fucked-up our for-profit medical system is.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NIKI2

Friday, August 21, 2009 3:51 PM

This goes waaaay back, but man, you guys MOVE, and I've been gone since yesterday.

Mike:

Quote:
Not all who mistrust the government are ignorant, Niki. I don't trust the government, but I trust for-profit healthcare even less. They've already proven that they're completely willing to throw people to the wolves completely in the interests of upping their profits. Why would I ever believe they'll STOP doing that or do it for less profit?

So while I don't trust the government, I have a bit more trust that they're not going to sell me off to the best bidder.

You got me wrong. I certainly never said all who mistrust the government are ignorant, nor would I. I agree with everything you said; I suppose what I was trying to say was those are THE ignorant people who mistrust the government fanatically, to the point where they'll do things others who mistrust the government wouldn't...perhaps it's a matter of personal responsiblity and mentality, or something, but those preyed upon to become pawns in this gou se with town halls, etc., are ignorant and not willing to be otherwise, so they are ripe to be used as pawns against the government.

I mistrust the government a lot--the fact that I mistrust big corporations even more is relative; big business left to its own devices will happily screw humans for profit (another thread went into this so well I didn't even respond, about farming and such). Government is influenced too much these days by same, but there are those who will at least TRY to limit their influence. It's relative.

Just wanted to clarify that; mostly I don't NEED to post, as the points I would make are made for me...takes the fun out of venting and putting forth my ideas, but equally THRILLS me to see reasoned arguments put out there reasonably, on both sides, and actual DEBATES taking place. Again: relative!

Quote:
You shouldn't be kicked in the ass for that. You should embrace it. I knew Bush was lying the second he said we were going to wage war on "terror", because you can't declare war on an emotion. If he had said we were going to bomb the living fuck out of Afghanistan, or the Taliban, or just Al Qaeda, in direct retaliation for 9/11, I'd have said, "Go get 'em!" In fact, I did say that. But he decided he wanted to kill the idea of terrorism, and I think rather than kill the idea, he propagated it and made it more popular. Bush became the best recruiting tool Al Qaeda has ever had, and then Iraq only added to that.

Us, too. "Bomb Afghanistan back to the stone ages" upset me, as Afghanistan was barely OUT of the stone age as it was, but going after Al Qeda and the Taliban was obviously necessary.

I would say that quite possibly besides being the best recruiting tool (which wasn't their aim), accumulating and consolidating POWER was behind all the scare tactics and the war on Iraq as much as anything for that administration. Worked good, too. Got people who don't think deeply to come on board, people who didn't trust them but their fear was greater, people who knew bucking them would be bad for them. Cheney knew what he was doing (and yes, I do lay it at HIS feet for the most part).

________________________
Together we are more than the sum of our parts

HKCAVALIER

Friday, August 21, 2009 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Well, I don't know for certain how reputable this site is, but this seems to indicate that this woman was a supporter of Lyndon LaRouche - a supposed communist who has tried to associate himself as a Democrat.

If she supports LaRouche, then Frank's question as to planet of residence was doubly apt. As was his assertion that trying to have a conversation with her would be something less than productive. Those people are out of their fricken gourds. Just read ANY of their literature.

And, no freakin' way do these folks side with the Democrats--they think the whole system is controlled by Nazis and Obama is a plant who will fail disasterously in order to destroy people's faith in government so the Nazis can further their agenda. It's kinda funny because every time Obama succeeds at anything, they have to change their story. First he was supposed to divide the Dem vote, then we was supposed to pave the way for Hillary, then he was supposed to lose to McCain/Palin, then he was supposed to...you get the idea.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 5:26 PM

Quote:
First he was supposed to divide the Dem vote, then we was supposed to pave the way for Hillary, then he was supposed to lose to McCain/Palin, then he was supposed to...

...show us his birth certificate?

Of course, after that, it would just be something else, wouldn't it?

Mike

KWICKO

Friday, August 21, 2009 5:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/1319/

You KNOW socialized health care is bad, when they are going to DETROIT to get treatment....

And I just have to ask, Wulf, since I forgot to mention it earlier...

WHY is it, exactly, that you think the hospitals in Detroit are so horrible? You say "they are going to DETROIT" with obvious distaste, and I'm wondering why.

Mike

ADMIRALDIGBY

Friday, August 21, 2009 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Some people who dislike Obama's policies aren't racists .

In fact most are not racists .

You want me to believe that conservatives aren't racist? Stop hanging out with racists; stop supporting them, stop defending them, and get the hell away from them. Tell them they aren't helping you, and that you don't want their support for your cause, because they hurt more than they could ever possibly help, and the besmirch you and other non-racists and blur the issue.

You don't fight racism by enabling it or encouraging it. You fight it by confronting it and fighting against it. You have a right to believe that some people are just automatically inferior to others for no other reason than the color of their skin, and I have an absolute right to mock you incessantly if you believe that.

Ain't America grand?

Mike

As a mostly white Canadian guy married to a black girl ( who's sort of an Obama fan but she's flagging under the absolute adoration he receives from our media ) I can certainly say that I have little love for your currant POTUS .

Now , nearly every time I've stated this I've simply been dismissed as "racist" .

I just think the man is grossly inexperienced for the most important job in the world .

Not unlike the last guy .

( the socialism and ties to domestic terrorists do not help either )

But back to my point - dismissing critics of Obama as being racist is as bad as the Bushites dismissing critics as being "unpatriotic" .

Both are dishonest .

BYTEMITE

Saturday, August 22, 2009 12:41 AM

I just spent a thread arguing about how the people protesting at townhalls and even the ones bringing guns to townhalls can not automatically be discounted as racist, and I myself caught some flak over it.

To be honest, so far the only person I've seen who is probably racist was a guy I saw with a sign that said "death to Obama, Michelle, and their two stupid kids." Their kids don't even have a political orientation for him to take issue with, so I'm thinking it's not politics he has a problem with.

But all Niki said was

Quote:
America is having a lot of trouble accepting change, especially the big change of a Black man in the White House. That's behind it for a lot of them; some are just dumb/ignorant Repubs who are incapable of thinking for themselves, some are ignorant people who mistrust the government whatever it does, etc.

She said "a lot of them." Not all. She also pointed out some who are not racist, and later she realized her mistake, corrected herself, and said that some of THOSE are not ignorant.

Someone isn't lying if they believe what they're saying, and honestly, what she said really was not that offensive (or even wrong, because racists do exist in this country, and I imagine that they might take issue with Barack Obama being president). Nor was it personal to you.

Looks like another misunderstanding to me.

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 12:46 AM

Why I think a lot of people really ARE racist is that fact that the Republicna right can get so many people riled up over phantasms, shadows. "Birthers", Obama with a Hitler mustache and "Hitler medicine"... this is just a cover for their true feelings.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Why I think a lot of people really ARE racist is that fact that the Republicna right can get so many people riled up over phantasms, shadows. "Birthers", Obama with a Hitler mustache and "Hitler medicine"... this is just a cover for their true feelings.

Leftists weren't motivated by Bush43=fascists! for the past eight years ?

What's happening to Obama44 is simply the other side of an ugly coin that was pointed at Bush43 .

The same movement that many on the left paint as racist actually increased aid to Africa and had more minorities in government power positions than even America's "First Black President" Bill Clinton .

As a person who's spent near thirty years observing the "two solitudes" I can honestly say that racism is as prevalent on the left as it is on the right .

It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists .

My take anyways .

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:13 AM

Quote:
Leftists weren't motivated by Bush43=fascists! for the past eight years ?...As a person who's spent near thirty years observing the "two solitudes"

The difference? Bush really was trending towards fascism. If you're such a consistent obsever of the politcal scene, surely I don't need to remind you of warrantless wiretapping, manipulation of terror threat levels, secret assassination programs, politcal firings of State Attorneys, torture, elimination of habeas corpus, signing statements, unnecessary invasions, and all the other crap that Bush43 escalated to levels not seen since Nixon? (And maybe not even then??)

There are PLENTY of things to accuse Obama about... unnecessarily hemorrhaging money to the financial sector, continuing the fine tradition of "signing statments", covering the telcom's *ss, proposing indefinite preventive detention (some Bush was doing already)... But getting in a froth about this birth certificate issue???????

THAT'S what racists veer towards when they can't grab ahold of anything substantive in their paradigms.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Leftists weren't motivated by Bush43=fascists! for the past eight years ?
The difference? Bush really was trending towards fascism. If you're such a consistent obsever of the American politcal scene, surely I don't need to remind you of warrantless wiretapping, manipulation of terror threat levels, secret assassination programs, politcal firings of State Attorneys, torture, elimination of habeas corpus, signing statements and all the other crap that Bush43 escalated to levels not seen since Nixon? (And maybe not even then??)

There are PLENTY of things to accuse Obama about... hemorrhaging money to the financila sector, continuing the fine tradition of "signing statments", covering the telcom's *ss, proposing indefinite preventive detention (some Bush was doing already)... But getting in a froth about this birth certificate issue???????

THAT'S what racists veer towards when they can't grab ahold of anything substantive in their paradigms.

And yet nearly all of Bush43's ( troubling "security measures" for sure ) have not , nor will be dismantled .

Politicians are almost uniformly reluctant to cede power no matter whence it came and no matter what they said prior to gaining power .

That's why the US system is separated into three powerful structures .

It's a hard machine to break .

It is your strength .

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:24 AM

Am I wrong in thinking that a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself might just not meet the criteria needed for running the most powerful office in the world ?

I'm no fan of Bush43 and am marginally more impressed with Ms Clinton .

I am not impressed by any measure by Obama44 other than his ability to read a teleprompter in a mesmerizing cadence .

I think that if he only waited four - eight years he just might have achieved the POTUS with a better grounding and as such might have been a far better leader .

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:25 AM

Quote:
And yet nearly all of Bush43's ( troubling "security measures" for sure ) have not , nor will be dismantled

And THAT is exactly what I criticize Obama for. But what about the peeps who really ARE in a froth about nothing? What's their "agenda"?

Simple- they don't have one. They will pick on anything and everything... that Michelle Obama wore shorts or that Barack "hasn't" produced his birth certificate or that there will be "death panels". WTF???? Gasping at straws, really. And why??? Because they cannot speak out loud what's really on their minds.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
And yet nearly all of Bush43's ( troubling "security measures" for sure ) have not , nor will be dismantled
And THAT is exactly what I criticize Obama for. But what about the peeps who really ARE in a froth about nothing? What's their "agenda"?

Simple- they don't have one. They will pick on anything and everything... that Michelle Obama wore shorts or that Barack "hasn't" produced his birth certificate or that there will be "death panels". WTF???? Gasping at straws, really. And why??? Because they cannot speak out loud what's really on their minds.

Hey , at no point have I not thought a lot of the sound and fury propagated by political pundits are nothing more than that .

It's just that no matter how unhinged ( or hinged if you will ) the ultimate debate stopper is to simply bring the race card into play .

And that card is played by the left far more often than the right .

It gets in the way of serious debate .

( as does the silly birth certificate , "sekrit Muslim" crap propagated by some far out righties )

For instance - many of my Canadian peers are happy that a black man has achieved POTUS stauts .

"Why?" I ask .

"Because America is such a racist country." is the standard refrain .

Racist ?

As in institutional ?

Show me a country where blacks ( and other minorities ) are able to flourish as well as they do in the USA .

Does anyone really believe Obama44 would have achieved his incredible life back in Kenya ?

Not saying it doesn't exist ( I'm not a tard no matter what impression I may be making here ) because it does .

Up here too .

But not to the extent that it is given .

( edited for a speelin' error )

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:48 AM

...The difference? Bush really was trending towards fascism

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
...a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself...

Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
...a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself...
Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

How is it groundless ?

He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .

Seriously .

And an edit - "smear" ?

pointing out that Obama has two books about himself is a smear ?

BYTEMITE

Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:20 AM

So? Christopher Paolini wrote two best-selling thousand page books before he was NINETEEN.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
So? Christopher Paolini wrote two best-selling thousand page books before he was NINETEEN.

About himself ?

BYTEMITE

Saturday, August 22, 2009 3:35 AM

No, but if that's what the issue here is, you don't have to be 45 or older to have an interesting book-worthy life.

I mean, Helen Keller turned blind and deaf when she was nineteen months old. And there still seems to be a lot of confusion among some people about where Barack Obama was even born. Perhaps writing two books may have been intended to shed some insight on that very matter.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 3:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, but if that's what the issue here is, you don't have to be 45 or older to have an interesting book-worthy life.

I mean, Helen Keller turned blind and deaf when she was nineteen months old. And there still seems to be a lot of confusion among some people about where Barack Obama was even born. Perhaps writing two books may have been intended to shed some insight on that very matter.

Perhaps .

Perhaps it was more to do with branding a nascent politician .

DREAMTROVE

Saturday, August 22, 2009 3:49 AM

Anyone bring popcorn?

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 3:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Anyone bring popcorn?

I have beer .

DREAMTROVE

Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:29 AM

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:56 AM

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:16 AM

Quote:
And that card is played by the left far more often than the right . It gets in the way of serious debate .

Bull. The RIGHT gets in the way of serious debate. You don't know me, but I'm HAPPY to discuss issues of substance, as are most of the left-wingers here. But what does the right-wing bring to the table? Obama is a Muslim. Obama wa born in Kenya. Obama wore "mom" pants. Michelle wore shorts. Michelle showed her arms. They picked the wrong kind of dog. Obama's healthcare plan has death panels.

I mean, really. When does the silly stuff end?

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
And that card is played by the left far more often than the right . It gets in the way of serious debate .
Bull. The RIGHT gets in the way of serious debate. You don't know me, but I'm HAPPY to discuss issues of substance, as are most of the left-wingers here. But what does the right-wing bring to the table? Obama is a Muslim. Obama wa born in Kenya. Obama wore "mom" pants. Michelle wore shorts. Michelle showed her arms. They picked the wrong kind of dog. Obama's healthcare plan has death panels.

I mean, really. When does the silly stuff end?

And , what ?

Did I not point that out ?

Ferris ?
Anyone ?

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:41 AM

No, what you said was that the race card gets in the way of serious debate. But how can one have a debate of any sort... serious or otherwise... when the opposing side brings gafla to the table?

This is not a case of both sides being equally at fault.

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:
...a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself...
Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.

How is it groundless ?

He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .

Seriously .

And an edit - "smear" ?

pointing out that Obama has two books about himself is a smear ?

Are you trolling? Are you a sock-puppet? Hard to imagine having any kind of conversation with you if you are truly this obtuse.

Obviously I was referring to your "ghost?" parenthetical. There is absolutely no evidence for that contention. It's part of the "I just don't trust the guy" meme, perpetuated by racist nationalists and parroted by the likes of you.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No, what you said was that the race card gets in the way of serious debate. But how can one have a debate of any sort... serious or otherwise... when the opposing side brings gafla to the table?

This is not a case of both sides being equally at fault.

What ?

"gafla" ?

WTF ?

Seriously .

Have you not witnessed the previous eight years ?

Crazy-ass fascist predictions were floated by the anti-Bush43 crowd with no corroboration or actual proof .

And yet the minute someone questions the new kid they're smeared as being racist ?

"Un-Patriotic = Racist"

Both are dishonest .

Am I clear ?

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I mean, really. When does the silly stuff end?

Would you like me to dig up some old threads regarding the former President? How about the "Russia is really big" thread? How about the numerous threads started over grammatical errors? Remember the thread that was started to bash Bush regarding his wearing of a countries local garb? Ever see the picture of Bush fishin'? How about the one of him flippin' the bird? How much traction did the left get with that picture of Bush holding the foreign dignitaries hand? Where were you to decry this silly stuff back then?

KWICKO

Saturday, August 22, 2009 1:55 PM

Quote:

I just think the man is grossly inexperienced for the most important job in the world .

Not unlike the last guy .

What kind of on-the-job training do you recommend for "most important job in the world"? How does one get the experience for that? Is there a "second-most important job in the world" that you get promoted from? How'd that work out for Ford? How'd it work out for HW Bush? Or Gore, for that matter?

Mike

KWICKO

Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:07 PM

Quote:
It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists .

So you're whining about being lumped in with a particular group because you're a conservative, and you say it's being done to you because the left are all condescending elitists? What an awesome argument.

While you may not see them as racists, we've got racists aplenty right here on this board. We have people who constantly refer to Obama as "SCAMBO" (a play on "Sambo") or "Obama-dongo", post up video of Zulus charging the (all white) British army in response to why they feel the need to be armed at town hall meetings (you know, because "the natives" just might overrun them if they don't have all their guns with them)...

Yeah, I don't know WHERE anyone might get the idea that there are racists on the right.

If you don't want to be associated with them, distance yourself from them and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're idiots and aren't helping. Otherwise, you're seen as giving tacit approval to their views. Why, it's *almost* as if you're approving of fascism and palling around with domestic terrorists!

Mike

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 2:44 PM

Quote:
What ? "gafla" ? WTF ? Seriously.

I assume you know what gafla means? It's a term from DUNE, which says (in one word) distractions that leaders throw to the population to keep them from looking at the important issues.

Quote:
Have you not witnessed the previous eight years ? Crazy-ass fascist predictions were floated by the anti-Bush43 crowd with no corroboration or actual proof.

First of all, I'm not recalling any crazy-ass "predictions". What I do recall is a lot of gasping reaction to what Bush had already DONE. So if you can enlighten me by telling me SPECIFICALLY which "predictions" you're talking about, I'll be happy to respond.

AFA the reactions to what Bush had already DONE, much of it was solidly attested to by witnesses- even those within his administration. I'm not going to go through the list which I already provided, but I'll betcha dollars to donuts that as the secrets dribble out from the Bush admin it will look worse and worse.... not better and better. So WTF??? back atcha.

Quote:
And yet the minute someone questions the new kid they're smeared as being racist ? "Un-Patriotic = Racist" Both are dishonest.

I have NO PROBLEMS with people "questioning" the new kid. I go to a site pretty much every day which does. They question him about everything: The bailout and TARP, indefinite detention, international trade, his coziness with Goldman Sachs, his commitment to universal health care... Your attempt to frame the debate to say that anyone who "questions" the President is accused of as being "racist" is rhetorically dishonest.

A word of caution, Admiral: We're not rhetorical newbies around here. At a glance I found three major dishonest statements of yours in this thread and you've only been called on two. So let me go back and refresh your memory:

Quote:
Am I wrong in thinking that a man who's greatest accomplishment was to ( ghost? ) write two books about himself might just not meet the criteria needed for running the most powerful office in the world ?-ADM
Your bias is showing with this groundless smear.-HKCavalier
How is it groundless ? He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .-ADM

You didn't criticize Obama for writing two books about himself. You criticized him for that being his GREATEST ACCOMPLISHMENT. I see that "reframing" is your stock in trade, and I'm calling you on it. Honesty would be appreciated. Weasel-wording? Not so much.

Now HERE is an argument which is not only honest, it's on-point!

Quote:
Would you like me to dig up some old threads regarding the former President? How about the "Russia is really big" thread? How about the numerous threads started over grammatical errors? Remember the thread that was started to bash Bush regarding his wearing of a countries local garb? Ever see the picture of Bush fishin'? How about the one of him flippin' the bird? How much traction did the left get with that picture of Bush holding the foreign dignitaries hand? Where were you to decry this silly stuff back then?

Yep, ya got me. SOME of it was groundless. (Some not so much. Many of the pictures of Bush holding hands with the Saudi Prince were posted IN RESPONSE TO Obama's bow. So one silliness was responded to by another. FU on that.) However, in defense of the anti-Bushies, our criticism were not JUST about silly stuff. Most of it was pretty damn serious. Treasonous, in fact. Nobody wants to see Bush tried for wearing silly clothes, but many of us would like to see him tried for treason.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:19 PM

Quote:
Crazy-ass fascist predictions were floated by the anti-Bush43 crowd with no corroboration or actual proof.

Issat so ?

Mind you, I'd say personally I nailed about 85-90% of em, often with proof in hand, and now that all this shit is finally coming out it's not so damn crazy any more is it now ?

Especially since I nailed all the big ones dead-bang square, chapter and verse, all the way down the line - so if you wanna dance this number, best do it with someone who didn't have the playlist in hand before the curtain even came up.

-F

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Mind you, I'd say personally I nailed about 85-90% of em, often with proof in hand, and now that all this shit is finally coming out it's not so damn crazy any more is it now ?

How about a little refresher.

NIKI2

Saturday, August 22, 2009 5:56 PM

I'm almost hesitant to enter this thread, given Digby's feelings about me, but what the hell, here it may be safe.

I came in this morning to find Bytemite's reasonable response to Digby's

Quote:
Some people who dislike Obama's policies aren't racists. In fact most are not racists .

But that's a lie you can't let go of. So , as you've said elsewhere about lies and the repeating of , keep it up.

I know it's a long ways back, but it's to and about me, so I'm responding. Thanx for clarifying, Byte:

Quote:
She said "a lot of them." Not all. She also pointed out some who are not racist, and later she realized her mistake, corrected herself, and said that some of THOSE are not ignorant.

Someone isn't lying if they believe what they're saying, and honestly, what she said really was not that offensive (or even wrong, because racists do exist in this country, and I imagine that they might take issue with Barack Obama being president). Nor was it personal to you.

Looks like another misunderstanding to me.

but no, it's no misunderstanding. It's a familiar tactic reflecting his feelings about me. I'm used to it.

What's neat, tho' is that I got left behind and this became a DEBATE, not ganging-up personal attack. I do love this place. And I do love to see how Digby is responding to it SOMEWHAT more as I know he's capable of, i.e., not just name-calling but actual debate. He IS smart, and is capable of holding his own with you guys; I hope the more you encourage him in that direction, the more he responds in kind. Opinionated, yes, and wrong a lot (in my opinion), yes, but capable of engaging, I believe.

That aside, as for the debate since it left there:

Sygnym

Quote:
Why I think a lot of people really ARE racist is that fact that the Republicna right can get so many people riled up over phantasms, shadows. "Birthers", Obama with a Hitler mustache and "Hitler medicine"... this is just a cover for their true feelings.

Excellent. You made the point for me. It's not, to me, that idiotic stuff is hurled at POTUS(es) every time by the other side, but that the things people have swallowed whole have been so extreme ad have appealed to the VISCERAL nature of people this time, not as much the POLITICAL nature, that indicates they're playing into something "else", as well as the fact that they're so enthusiastically embraced.

Dig:

Quote:
What's happening to Obama44 is simply the other side of an ugly coin that was pointed at Bush43 .

The same movement that many on the left paint as racist actually increased aid to Africa and had more minorities in government power positions than even America's "First Black President" Bill Clinton .

As a person who's spent near thirty years observing the "two solitudes" I can honestly say that racism is as prevalent on the left as it is on the right . It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists.

Yes, the right has done the things you mentioned, tho' I wouldn't contrast them with the left, as I think it can be said of both sides, but of course, there are good intentions on both sides through history. And yes, there's racism on both sides, in all societies, but what's happening now seems to me a more blatant appeal to the inherent racism in this country. For one thing, all the polls and facts show the biggest atni-Obama mentality is in the South by FAR, a part of our country so connected to racism that it must make those who AREN'T down there squirm sometimes. If one breaks Obama's approval rating, and about anything else having to do with him, into areas of the country, the numbers change dramatically.

There certainly is condescension masking reverse-racism (as bad as racism in some ways) on the left, but in my opinion, the results of overt racism are more prevalent on the right and more destructive by far. I'll take good-faith efforts, despite containing condescension, over overt hatred any day. And you might want to drop the "leftist elitists" thing--just a suggestion--but I do

KWICKO

Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:26 PM

Quote:

It gets in the way of serious debate .

( as does the silly birth certificate , "sekrit Muslim" crap propagated by some far out righties )

*SOME*? In places, including ENTIRE STATES here in America, it's not SOME "far out righties", it's actually THE VAST MAJORITY of them. North Carolina, for instance. A poll week before last asked self-identified registered Republicans if they believe Obama as an American citizen. A whopping SEVENTY-TWO PERCENT answered "No" or "Don't know". That's not "SOME" righties. That's a scary amount of them.

Of course, it should also be noted that 12% of them didn't think Hawaii was a state...

Those "some far out righties" you mentioned include people like Sarah Palin, Tom Delay, Chuck Grassley, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh (a confirmed longtime drug addict), Glenn Beck (whose mother and brother committed suicide just to get the hell away from him), and countless others. All of them have jumped on either the "birther" train or the "death panels" train, or BOTH, and they're all equally bonkers. Are those the people you really want running the United States? Hell, are these even the people you want arguing your case or framing the "debate"?

Mike

KWICKO

Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AdmiralDigby:

He wrote *two* books about himself before he was forty-five .

Seriously .

I think you're jealous, because from what I've seen lately, most "conservatives" in this country look down on you if you've READ two books before you're forty-five. According to them, it makes you one o' them "leftist elites" they like to bag on so much.

Ruh-roh - Looks like Rudy Giuliani wrote a book about himself. Guess that disqualifies him from running.

John McCain has written FIVE books about himself. So are you mad that Obama has written so many books about himself, or so few?

Quote:
Perhaps it was more to do with branding a nascent politician .

So is it your contention that we should disqualify anyone from the Presidency who's ever written a book? Certainly after the last eight years, we should disqualify anyone who's never read one...

Mike

KWICKO

Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:41 PM

Quote:

Would you like me to dig up some old threads regarding the former President? How about the "Russia is really big" thread?

Oh, could you? Be a dear and please go dig those up.

Mike

KWICKO

Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Mind you, I'd say personally I nailed about 85-90% of em, often with proof in hand, and now that all this shit is finally coming out it's not so damn crazy any more is it now ?

How about a little refresher.

Sure. It's all right there at the bottom of the RWED thread page, under a link that says "Read threads that have been archived."

Go see what you can find while you're looking up "Bush is silly" threads. Run, boy - FETCH!

Who knows? Maybe you'll run across a "real" Obama birth certificate from Kenya. Or Canada. Or Australia. Or Zaire. Or Nigeria. Or Indonesia.

Mike

KWICKO

Saturday, August 22, 2009 6:54 PM

Now, as for the REAL stuff Obama has really blown it on, where do I start?

Wire taps, indefinite detention, Gitmo, still being in Iraq, still being in Afghanistan, now targeting people in Pakistan, not addressing the problems on our own borders, not being more forceful in his dealings with healthcare reform (seriously, we don't NEED any Republican support for this; fuck "bipartisanship".)

Seriously. Give me a worthy opponent in 2012, and my vote's up for grabs. And when I say "worthy", I don't mean John McCain or Dick Cheney or Sarah "I Quit!" Palin. Give me somebody REAL. Give me an actual fiscal conservative, not just someone who says he is and then more than doubles the debt and takes us from a budget surplus to the largest deficits ever seen by any nation on Earth.

Who else have you got?

Mike

ANTHONYT

Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:02 PM

"However, in defense of the anti-Bushies, our criticism were not JUST about silly stuff. Most of it was pretty damn serious. Treasonous, in fact. Nobody wants to see Bush tried for wearing silly clothes, but many of us would like to see him tried for treason."

Hello,

I'd like to chime in here somewhat in Signy's favor. I'm not quite convinced about the treason aspect of Bush's crimes. It may be so.

But I am convinced that the man tore civil liberties to shreds, endorsed torture (a rose by any other name), and spied on Americans.

I am mad at Obama, because he voted or elected not to pursue these crimes.

But you better believe I'm mad at Bush first, for perpetrating them originally.

I don't like arguments where someone points out something Obama has done wrong, and then it is defended by saying, "But look at what Bush did!" As though that absolves the guy of guilt, just because there may have been a bigger jackass preceding him. As though it was a defense in court to say, "Hey, sure, I murdered five people, but that guy murdered ten!" Bull.

However, I share the frustration of Obama defenders on one point. How is it possible for some people to point and jeer and clamor at this president, while they not only remained silent on the previous president- but actively endorsed his B.S.?!

People don't become right or wrong depending on their political affiliation. They become right and wrong because of the things they do and the things they fail to do. There's only one team here, and it ain't blue or red. We should all collectively get our mad on each and every time some jackass does something stupid. Getting mad only when the jackass is sporting an unfavorable team jersey is foolish.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Sure. It's all right there at the bottom of the RWED thread page, under a link that says "Read threads that have been archived."

Go see what you can find while you're looking up "Bush is silly" threads. Run, boy - FETCH!

Gee, Frem, how about you find what I was asking about and I will respond in turn. How does that sound, Frem?

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:14 PM

Quote:
How does that sound, Frem?

It sounds like pearls before swine, BDN. If you can't remember what Frem (and I, Rue, HK, Gino, Succotash, and others) have been pointing at for the last- oh five-six years- what should make me think you're gonna bother to think about it THIS time? Not bloody likely.

DREAMTROVE

Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:40 PM

Quote:
Now, as for the REAL stuff Obama has really blown it on, where do I start?

Wire taps, indefinite detention, Gitmo, still being in Iraq, still being in Afghanistan, now targeting people in Pakistan, not addressing the problems on our own borders, not being more forceful in his dealings with healthcare reform (seriously, we don't NEED any Republican support for this; fuck "bipartisanship".)

Seriously. Give me a worthy opponent in 2012, and my vote's up for grabs. And when I say "worthy", I don't mean John McCain or Dick Cheney or Sarah "I Quit!" Palin. Give me somebody REAL. Give me an actual fiscal conservative, not just someone who says he is and then more than doubles the debt and takes us from a budget surplus to the largest deficits ever seen by any nation on Earth.

Who else have you got?

Mike

Interesting.

Okay, McCain was always a fraud moderate, I always kinda knew, but didn't admit it to myself. Palin is mad hot, and lower class, if she had more time she could have learned to act more candidate like, she's actually far more moderate than her campaign persona.

She would have been so good but they fucked it up (there's a serious problem with any hot chick though: Female jealousy, I think we saw a lot of it in '08.) As for quitting, she was forced to by the GOP who wanted rid of it.

Okay, the republican party sucks, but so does the democratic party. So, alas, do the third parties. The only party I respect at the moment is the tories.

But that said:

Mike

Okay, give me what you want in a candidate. You made a lot of points against the current administration. I personally have nothing against Obama himself, except that he pals around with terrorists (In this case, I'm referring to the Clintons and the movers and shakers in the democratic party, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, all the reasons he's still at war.) Also, I am going to make a prediction: By 2012, Obama's socialism is going to crash the economy. (correction: further crash the economy.) As people say about Hoover and FDR: yes, sure, the economy was headed down because of the Coolidge credit economy over-inflating things, and sure, to some extend it's a set up. The question is, yes, but by how much?

But you make a lot of good points. I don't personally care about the borders and I don't think Obama himself actually has a healthcare plan, and the democrats' plans are all over the map. Sure, some of them are well intentioned, but the more powerful ones will be those with a strong special interest behind them, and I see this coming down to a battle between the insurance companies and the drug companies, and I think they'll end up splitting the kitty on it. Personally, I think this should be done a state level. I mean healthcare, not letting the fatcats split the kitty. Is that a mixed metaphor?

But I'm with you on the foreign policy and fiscal policy issues, I think we could see less globalism, more civil liberties, and more conservationism. I think we need to create someone, but give me your specs. I mean, you're more or less a democrat, give me a platform that you'd vote for. Passed has proven that Governors have more chance than anyone from congress, so we can start soon, creating an opposition candidate.

I think that my create-a-republican plan would have to include a special portion of the budget I call "corporate candy" This is a jar of money. We dish into it, and toss piles to wall street, directly, and try to hit as many people as possible. The plan will be way cheaper than bailouts, military spending, welfare, public works, it will just be outright theft. That will get us our support. We might as well do it in contracts (I came up with a plan a while ago I called "rebuild america" where you give out cost plus contracts to any corporation that would actually do things like rehabilitate the inner cities, etc.) A straight handout would be relatively cheap. That, and free Jesus with every purchase, and I think you could win a GOP primary.

But I want to hear, so fire away, conservative platform you'd actuall

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:41 PM

Signy,
You already agreed with me that there was a lot of silliness directed at Bush. Why go back on that now?

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

I just think the man is grossly inexperienced for the most important job in the world .

Not unlike the last guy .

What kind of on-the-job training do you recommend for "most important job in the world"? How does one get the experience for that? Is there a "second-most important job in the world" that you get promoted from? How'd that work out for Ford? How'd it work out for HW Bush? Or Gore, for that matter?

Mike

Experience is just that , experience .

Your guy is inexperienced .

Not saying he's not going to do a good job .
I hope he does .
What's good for the USA is generally good for the world .

( as opposed to China or Russia or any other big dog )

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:02 PM

Quote:
Signy,You already agreed with me that there was a lot of silliness directed at Bush. Why go back on that now?

BDN, you were challenging Frem to refresh your memory on the SERIOUS criticisms about Bush. Do I, Frem, Kwicko, Rue, DT, HK, Gino, Succotash etc need to go back and cover all that old ground again?

WMD: Bush lied.
Linking Saddam to 9-11.
Torture: Approved at the very top.
Refusal to honor FOIA.
Signing statements.
Warrantless wiretapping.
Extraordinary rendition.
Elimination of habeas corpus.
Driving the economy into the ground.
Feeding the rich, starving the poor.
A totally unnecessary invasion.
A totally bobbled response to Katrina?

Do I need to remind you that the Likud policy paper "A Clean Break", which details an Iraqi invasion, was written by Rumsfeld's appointees?
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

That The (so-called} Patriot Act was written BEFORE 9-11?

That Cheney was deeply involved in cherry-picking the "evidence" to invade Iraq? That the Energy Commission (which he chaired) is widely reputed to have worked on a detailed map of Iraq?

That Cheney's and Rove's fingerprints were all over the political firing of State Attorneys?

****As time goes on, more and more will be coming out about the Bush admin misdeeds. It will look worse and worse, not better and better. Yes, that's a prediction. Please don't make me dig this up in five years to remind you. Just tuck this on wherever you keep important memories, and remind YOURSELF that someone got it right. Not you. And you might want to look into your assumptions and figure out how you got so blindsided. *********

BUT WAIT...!

THERE'S MORE!

But I'm not gonna go over it with you anymore. You have some brains. Use them.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:08 PM

Quote:

pointing out that Obama has two books about himself is a smear ?

Are you trolling? Are you a sock-puppet? Hard to imagine having any kind of conversation with you if you are truly this obtuse.

Obviously I was referring to your "ghost?" parenthetical. There is absolutely no evidence for that contention. It's part of the "I just don't trust the guy" meme, perpetuated by racist nationalists and parroted by the likes of you.

HKCavalier

You're quick to draw that racist card aren't you ?
Obama's race is irrelevant .
( well , to me it is - obviously you have a different vantage point )

I've spent the last eight years bashing Bush43 ( and the Bush-bots , though probably not as gleefully as some would like ) the way things are now with Obama44's acolytes I suspect I'll be bashing them and him for at least the next four years .

I'm not big on socialism ( and I'm Canadian so go figure ) and I'm not big on throwing money at a problem .

Obama strikes me as the sort of politician who feels that money and government can solve all problems .

I think that they just cause new ones .
( without actually fixing the initial conundrum(s) )

So dismiss me as racist , obtuse and sock-puppetty all you like .

Underestimation of opposing views is the weak link in many a liberal's play book .

( the same as many a conservative will assume a moral superiority over his opposite number )

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
It's just masked under a type condescension that seems to afflict leftist elitists .

So you're whining about being lumped in with a particular group because you're a conservative, and you say it's being done to you because the left are all condescending elitists? What an awesome argument.

While you may not see them as racists, we've got racists aplenty right here on this board. We have people who constantly refer to Obama as "SCAMBO" (a play on "Sambo") or "Obama-dongo", post up video of Zulus charging the (all white) British army in response to why they feel the need to be armed at town hall meetings (you know, because "the natives" just might overrun them if they don't have all their guns with them)...

Yeah, I don't know WHERE anyone might get the idea that there are racists on the right.

If you don't want to be associated with them, distance yourself from them and tell them in no uncertain terms that they're idiots and aren't helping. Otherwise, you're seen as giving tacit approval to their views. Why, it's *almost* as if you're approving of fascism and palling around with domestic terrorists!

Mike

I have posted in about four threads so far , so sorry if I haven't been able to meet any of your resident racists .

And William Ayers was indeed a domestic terrorist . That's not racist or bias . It's a fact .
The Weathermen were terrorists just like the FLQ were terrorists .

The same as Paul Rose up here .
Any politician who allies/consorts with Paul rose is collaborating with a domestic terrorist .
And as such would never , ever gain my support or approval .

( Google Paul Rose and the FLQ to reference what I mean )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rose_%28political_figure%29

WHOZIT

Saturday, August 22, 2009 8:35 PM

Thank you Barney Frank? Why, he's scum. Are you libs proud to have Frank in your fold? You can have that FAGGOT! Yes I yelled FAGGOT! You libs can keep Frank and all the wierd dirtbags he brings with him......he's all your's.

ADMIRALDIGBY

Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Thank you Barney Frank? Why, he's scum. Are you libs proud to have Frank in your fold? You can have that FAGGOT! Yes I yelled FAGGOT! You libs can keep Frank and all the wierd dirtbags he brings with him......he's all your's.

To be fair , Mr Franks sexuality is irrelevant to his dubious political maneuvers .

By calling him a faggot you simply invalidate anything else you have to offer on the subject .

And you unmask yourself as a hate filled little man . Perhaps you should look to God and ask for His forgiveness . Or you could just join Fred Phelps at his next demonstration at a military funeral .

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:21 PM

Hmm, Let's see...
In no particular order, just random stuff off the top of my head.

Patriot act, NOT sunsetted, and radically expanded, check.

We WERE torturing people, check.

No WMDs, and our so-called investigations were a ruse to make sure the victim was defenseless as possible before we invaded, which we were gonna do no matter what, check.

Taser abuse would become widespread, check.

Osama is almost certainly dead since Dec 2001, check.

Wholesale dragnet surveillence, a claim might I remind you was laughed off at the time, check.

Abusive conduct by our Alphabet goons, check.

Blackwater malfeasance, check.

Democrats rolling over like bitches the instant they got a majority, check.

Active duty troops deployed here with crowd control packages, check.

ADS Pain Beam *NEVER* intended for theatre deployment, *ALWAYS* intended for citizen pacification, check.

Neocon Cabal members heading for the hills, often other countries, check.

Doesn't include satellite/non political stuff, like the FLDS and Gardasil fiascos, which I called chapter and verse all the way down the line either.

Oh yeah, and this administration not stopping the abuses cause they didn't wanna cut the leash so much as just change who was holding it, check.

You might have noticed a pattern here, of said predictions falling in the 85-90% range if you've been watching, some of which was admittedly by "cheating" via having information or hints thereof not commonly available by mainstream sources at the time.

Dunno about you, but thems betting odds to me.

-F

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, August 22, 2009 9:21 PM

I told you your bias was showing, Admiral, and then that you were repeating a racist talking point and you come back with, "So dismiss me as a racist." No, honestly, I see you as the flunky of racists, perhaps a de facto racist 'cause you don't understand the origin and purpose of your guff, which is even sadder.

You don't understand what you read, Admiral--you exploit it. You gather up some prejudicial b.s. inferred from my post and smugly warn me not to underestimate you. Now that is funny. Expecting simple reading comprehension is overestimating you.

So, you dismiss your own libelous remarks about the President, defend them not at all, expecting me to do the same, and proceed to your first, however vaguely, substantive generalizations about actual policy.

Quote:
Obama strikes me as the sort of politician who feels that money and government can solve all problems.

I think that they just cause new ones.

You think that one up all by yourself? You want a cookie?

It doesn't work like that. You don't come in here being a jackass, polluting the forum with your dad's hand-me-down talking points, then expect people to take you seriously when you realize that your b.s. doesn't fly.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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