A blow for Palin fans everywhere....

POSTED BY: MrBlueSun
UPDATED: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 18:46
VIEWED: 10564
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MRBLUESUN

Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:23 AM

Whilst i generally try to avoid debating american politics the vitriolic lengths that some people on this board go to in order to defend their candidate's various errors can occasionally be intriguing (and amusing) so i thought you guys might want to take a crack at this little story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7662820.stm

Stay shiny now

Whoever you vote for in an election, the government always gets in.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:41 AM

It's lie, lies & more lies!! It ain't true, I tell ya...and, uh, even if it IS, she did what she thought was right, just like President Bush always does!! Laws apply only to average citizens- good leaders have to know how to get around them to get the good works done!
She is great * can do no wrong in the eyes of the dear & fluffy Lord.

I have spokenisall

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:45 AM

*borrows Tonya Harding's favorite crowbar and smacks him in the ankle with it to remind him that women are, in general, evil.*

DoubleDoseOfSnarkinFrem.

SERGEANTX

Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:32 AM

Was I the only one, upon reading this thread title, to think that a 'blow' might be just what a lot of Palin's male supporters are hoping for?
SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:34 AM

Does Palin have.......fans?

Couldnthappentoabetterpersonisall

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

AURAPTOR

Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:46 AM

Mrs Palin acted within "proper and lawful authority.

end of story.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:07 AM

"for personal gain"

case closed

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:46 AM

I'm very proud of Sarah Palin and Todd Palin and the way they acted during this entire thing. Set aside the politics for one minute if you can. Stop and think clearly. Think about her sister, her nephew, and her father as just American citizens with civil rights. There's a father, a State Trooper who is an abusive dangerous loose cannon. He abuses the wife, tasers his own 10 year old son, he threatens to kill his wife and Sarah's father. The Palin's excersized tremendous restraint in their efforts to have him removed for Public Safety concerns. By any measure of justice and safety that Commissioner who she fired was just an arrogant bastard. He worked for her. He was simply insubordinate in defying her. That Trooper thought his closeness to the Governor gave him special priviledge to behave like a lunatic, threaten to kill people, DECLARE HIMSELF PROUDLY TO BE UNTOUCHABLE & LAUGH, and batter his son. That is far greater an abuse of power than anything the Palins did. Now he's being portayed as something akin to a born-again Tookie Wilson, a Mr. Nice Guy or something. What a pathetic and dis-honest ploy. Now, back to politics. You Dems are salivating like diseased vultures over a fresh corpse because you feel this will hurt her & McCain. Twenty-four days is plenty of time for this to be absorbed by voters. Sarah and Todd will tell their story and we'll see how America responds. The depth of this Trooper's cruelness and neaderthalism went a tad beyond what NBC news calls "a messy divorce." If it had been the Clintons back in Arkansas, that Trooper would have been quietly picked up by guys in trenchcoats and shot in the woods and dumped in the river.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:10 AM

If this is true, why is trying to get him fired the only thing she did about it? Shouldn't the violence and threats have been reported and made public in the same way Sarah Palin's own actions were? Wouldn't it have been very simple to clear up this whole affair mentioning these things in the press?

Seems.. weird that all these very serious factors wouldn't be mentioned more by those who would stand to gain from it. Or has it? This is the first I ever heard about it.

ETA:

I found this article using google. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/05/AR2008
090503407_pf.html

Quotes:
"Wooten, however, contradicted Palin's statement that she overheard him in 2005 threaten her father during an argument with Palin's younger sister, Molly McCann, Wooten's wife at the time. Wooten noted that an internal investigation failed to sustain the death-threat allegation."

Also:
"He was found to have violated state policy for using a Taser on his 10-year-old son, killing a moose while using his wife's permit, drinking a beer before driving a state vehicle and having an open beer can in the vehicle."

Regarding the taser:

"He said his stepson became curious and wanted to feel the Taser in the same way that troopers tested the device on themselves during training.

"He was inquiring about the Taser and all the ins and outs about it," Wooten said. "I hooked him up to one of the training aides and turned it on for less than a second. I had him on the living room floor with pillows around him and made it as safe as possible. When it was over he thought it was great and wanted to do it all again. He was bragging about it and telling everyone in the family about it."

Jon Marc Peterson, one of Wooten's attorneys, said the Taser incident was a violation of policy because he was using state equipment for personal use. "It was not the actual Tasing of the stepson that was the issue," he said.

Wooten's wife was in the home at the time, investigative reports state. The boy's extended family, including Chuck Heath, the father of Sarah Palin, thought the story was humorous, Wooten said.

That's not quite the same as what your words imply.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:23 AM

Don't fret. All of the truth is coming out, and many of us Palin admirers have known all this since after the Convention. Even usually Dem slanted CNN went into it last night. I applaud them for that. The networks and MSNBC, the NY Times, and all the liberal machinery of the media just called it a messy divorce. Why else do you think the Palin's went ballistic in their efforts? Just a whim? What, the Trooper cheated at the family poker game? But they didn't really go ballistic. They acted with restraint and just talked to people. The State Troopers and the civilian adminstrators are a good old boys club. They weren't going to discipline this rogue threat the the citizens.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Jon Marc Peterson, one of Wooten's attorneys, said the Taser incident was a violation of policy because he was using state equipment for personal use. "It was not the actual Tasing of the stepson that was the issue," he said.

Glad you have the quotes and interpretations from Wooten and his attorney to shape your opinions. Now that your hatred of her is vindicated you can celebrate.

AGENTROUKA

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Jon Marc Peterson, one of Wooten's attorneys, said the Taser incident was a violation of policy because he was using state equipment for personal use. "It was not the actual Tasing of the stepson that was the issue," he said.

Glad you have the quotes and interpretations from Wooten and his attorney to shape your opinions. Now that your hatred of her is vindicated you can celebrate.

It was all I could find on short notice. Still haven't found anything else, but I'm not a gifted researcher. If you have other articles with more varied information, I'd be glad to read those.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Jon Marc Peterson, one of Wooten's attorneys, said the Taser incident was a violation of policy because he was using state equipment for personal use. "It was not the actual Tasing of the stepson that was the issue," he said.

Glad you have the quotes and interpretations from Wooten and his attorney to shape your opinions. Now that your hatred of her is vindicated you can celebrate.

It was all I could find on short notice. Still haven't found anything else, but I'm not a gifted researcher. If you have other articles with more varied information, I'd be glad to read those.

Your politeness is very refreshing. The reality of these things is that many times internal family conversations and actions are just that, un-witnessed family conversations, threatening rants and things. I tend to keep an open mind on these situations. There are countless examples of so-called pillars of the community who later turn out in fact to be brutes and monsters. One that comes to mind is that detective in Illinois, Peterson, who is highly suspected of killing his last 2 wives. He is still strutting around with a sickening arrogance. New forensics recently by Dr Baden, concluded that wife number 3 didn't drown in the bathtub, but was killed beforehand. Wife # 4 is still missing. It's a sad, all-too common pattern, abusive maniac cops who hide behind thier badge and their buddies. Wooten isn't a Peterson, but he is one of those cops who think of all of us civilians as little people.

WHOZIT

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:51 AM

They're going to have to have a pic of her eatting a baby, if they want to get a story that over shadows the Stock Market. This is no "October Surpise", if no one cares about Obama and William Ayers, I dought anyone will give a shit about this. Sorry libs, but I know you'll keep trying.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
They're going to have to have a pic of her eating a baby

May I humbly attempt to top that gem by imagining that Obama supporters would cry for joy and do a dance if ever Sarah or Todd accidently dropped their baby, the baby that many Dems call a campaign prop? Maybe then they could bring back John Edwards from the trash heap to perform one of his world-famous legal channelings to the spirit world, and summon up a mystical retro-active late-term abortion for the child, therfore sparing them from the distaste of the whole situation.

WHOZIT

Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
They're going to have to have a pic of her eating a baby

Wow Whoz, where'd you come up with that gem? I love it. May I humbly attempt to top it by imagining that Obama supporters would cry for joy if ever Sarah or Todd accidently dropped their baby? Maybe then they could bring back John Edwards from the trash heap to perform one of his world-famous legal channelings to the spirit world, and summon up a mystical retro-active late-term abortion for the child, therfore sparing them from the distaste of the whole situation.

My brilliant point is, (Now that the coffee has kicked in) the Stock Market crash "IS" the October surpise, for both the McCain & Obama camps. No one gives a rats ass over "Troopergate".

KHYRON

Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:16 PM

Jongsstraw, stop fishing, we all know you're just trying to get people here riled up.

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
My brilliant point is, (Now that the coffee has kicked in) the Stock Market crash "IS" the October surpise, for both the McCain & Obama camps. No one gives a rats ass over "Troopergate".

Wow Whozit, I'm impressed! That indeed was a very good point. There may be potential for you yet, young grasshopper!

------------------------------

Trolls Against McCain, my friends.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
They're going to have to have a pic of her eating a baby

May I humbly attempt to top that gem by imagining that Obama supporters would cry for joy if ever Sarah or Todd accidently dropped their baby? Maybe then they could bring back John Edwards from the trash heap to perform one of his world-famous legal channelings to the spirit world, and summon up a mystical retro-active late-term abortion for the child, therfore sparing them from the distaste of the whole situation.
My brilliant point is, (Now that the coffee has kicked in) the Stock Market crash "IS" the October surpise, for both the McCain & Obama camps. No one gives a rats ass over "Troopergate".

The latest video of the Farrakhan sermon declaring Obama to be the Messiah to his flock of Muslims in sheets is quite a hoot too. Talking about the economy without stressing criminal prosecutions is useless. All the CEO's and corrupt politicians must be diligently prosecuted under every law statute they violated. Since this is nothing more than a theft of the wealth of America, and has threatened our national security, I'd like to see the politicians tried for treason as well.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, October 11, 2008 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Jongsstraw, stop fishing, we all know you're just trying to get people here riled up.

Who's the "we"? You speak for the vast majority I guess. That's nice for you. I write what I like. You don't like it, no problem.

RIVERLOVE

Saturday, October 11, 2008 1:36 PM

The ACORN thing will be Obama's undoing. Gave them $ 800,000 from his campaign. Was their former mentor. Was their attorney. They're under FBI investigation in 8 states for voter fraud. They been convicted dozens of times before. They keep getting millions of dollars from Liberals, their offices have been raided by FBI and state investigators, and there are now piles of brand new sworn statements and un-deniable evidence testifying to gross voter registration fraud, numbering in the the 10's of thousands. That's 10,000's of crimes and felonies, almost exclusively favoring Democrats. And committed by recruited and funded Democrat operatives in the field. What's worse? Someone stealing your vote, or stealing your money? Answer. Democrats stole them both. And I'm sorry Dems, but there's a very clear and straight line from these felonious vote stealers to Obama and his campaign.

And by the way, you Obama supporters were certainly correct in your arched-back indignation over Palin's use of the term Community Organizer for Obama. I can see why. That's some community! ACORN, AYERS, WRIGHT, FLEAGER, , and of course, the big daddy, the millionnaire slumlord of the community, Tony the Man REZKO. Obama sure drank from Rezko's fountain now, didn't he? All of these despicable human beings and organizations are hardly simple and innocent associations for Obama as is the often-heard pitiful defense, rather more a brotherhood of radical purpose, including deep involvements and working relationships, in harmony of spirit and cause, and with large financial connections as well. The man had NO judgement, he was one of them, but now he doesn't like any of them anymore. Contemplate that my friends when your're getting all spun about with Palin.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, October 11, 2008 2:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's lie, lies & more lies!! It ain't true, I tell ya...and, uh, even if it IS, she did what she thought was right, just like President Bush always does!! Laws apply only to average citizens- good leaders have to know how to get around them to get the good works done!
She is great * can do no wrong in the eyes of the dear & fluffy Lord.

I have spokenisall

Gov Palin acted in a proper and lawful manner. What about that don't you get? All the rest is merely political muck racking, and nothing more. Props to her for standing up to a guy who tazered a FREAKING 10 YR OLD! Smacks of what you folks keeping whining about as ' torture '. But when someone does something about it, you side w/ the dirt bags ???

Color me not shocked.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:04 PM

Rapo, you're not getting the essential parts of the story. You're parsing facts (again) and picking only the parts you want to hear. There were twoparts to the enquiry: Did she exceed her authority, and did she abuse her authority?

Governor Pailin did not exceed her authority. In other words, as Governor, she had the AUTHORITY to fire (Public Safety Commissioner) Walt Monegan. That was the "proper and lawful" act.

However the REASON for the firing was at least partly personal, and that was where she abused the authority that she had.

Get it now?

Quote:
Props to her for standing up to a guy who tazered a FREAKING 10 YR OLD!

ETA: THe guy she fired did not taser anyone. He wasn't a policeman in the field at all, he was the Commissioner. Your post betrays a complete conflation of information into a useless jumble of factoids and spin.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RIGHTEOUS9

Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:49 PM

For Aurap and Jonstraw,

Did the trooper have a casefile of police brutality investigations, all unsustained, were there a number of reports on record from citizens accusing him of this sort of behavior, that was being ignored by the commisioner she eventually fired?

Is there strong evidence that he was shirking his duty by not firing the trooper in question? This is a genuine question, because I don't have those facts myself, and I'm wondering, since you both know so much about the details, if either of you do, and if you could clarify that for me,

because if the commisioner had no cause to terminate the trooper, aside of the governor and her spouse telling him the guy was a bad cop , then he would have been just as guilty of abuse of authority, had he complied with their demands, right?

But a bipartisan panel found that she did in-fact abuse her authority, so it doesn't sound quite so like a political witch hunt to me, or are most of those republicans up there commie republicans because they are so close to russia?

...........

And I'm not sure what's to admire about the Palin's handling of this case. At first she said she welcomed the investigation, and then her and her handlers put great effort into getting it halted, stalled, dismissed...etc.

What a vast melting glacier of integrity they have to stand on.

by the way Jong,

that's an asshole thing to say, that we would celebrate if Palin dropped her baby. You talk to many of us on a regular basis.

I would never think the same of you, just because you lean republican dude...wow

..............

Just to ad,

if Palin did abuse her power,as has been decided by a bipartisan panel, yes I'm fucking thrilled that it has been discovered.

You have the chicken and the egg shit all mixed up Jong.

The very fact that Mccain picked a woman who was clearly not fully vetted says that he isn't country first, the very fact that Palin was cited as abusing her power and in all likelyhood did so is why I'm thrilled to see it come out. I wouldn't want the woman unfairly maligned,

but fairly characterized? You betcha

even while I was greatly amused by her inability to answer questions at her interviews(I was more offended, and even a little frightened) and part of me wanted the damn campaign to end at her debate, because she's already convinced me that she isn't capable of holding such a high office, I was actually somewhat happy that she got out of the debate with a slightly bolstered image. I think she was dragged into something over her head, and the lib in me truly started feeling sorry for her.

RIVERLOVE

Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's lie, lies & more lies!! It ain't true, I tell ya...and, uh, even if it IS, she did what she thought was right, just like President Bush always does!! Laws apply only to average citizens- good leaders have to know how to get around them to get the good works done!
She is great * can do no wrong in the eyes of the dear & fluffy Lord.

I have spokenisall

There you go being all impishy again. I have a long-treasured Mxylptlyk Halloween costume, complete with green hat and cane of mischief, kept mint since 1966. Would you care to borrow it? I trust you.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 6:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

by the way Jong,

that's an asshole thing to say, that we would celebrate if Palin dropped her baby.

I thought that was a bit over the top as well.

Look, EITHER Palin has no faith in law, due process, or or government in general (which would make her unfit to hold a high position in the government), or there's no real case against the trooper, only Palin's intense dislike of an arguably irritating dude ( which would make her unfit to hold a high position in the government).

So which is it?

Basically, I think she's unfit to hold a high position in the government, but then wtf do I know- I said the same about Bush, and look how good he worked out for us all.

Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:12 PM

So the report concluded that Palin acted within proper and lawful authority to fire a person she found to be unworthy of the state position because of her understanding of how he conducted his job in dealing with him in the past. It’s a non-issue. Palin, as governor, is within her authority to decide that an appointed state official is not up to the task.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Palin, as governor, is within her authority to decide that an appointed state official is not up to the task.

Oh those pesky technicalities....she was within her authority to fire Walt Monegan, who in turn was within his authority NOT to fire Mike Wooten.

But see, if she WASN'T within her authority, then the same action would have been WRONG, right?

Your objectivity is so subjective, Finn. You need a court case & a jury decision to label an obvious misuse of power as such. And even then you might label the decision as dubious.

Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So the report concluded that Palin acted within proper and lawful authority to fire a person she found to be unworthy of the state position because of her understanding of how he conducted his job in dealing with him in the past. It’s a non-issue. Palin, as governor, is within her authority to decide that an appointed state official is not up to the task.

-- Cicero

Ditto. Non issue. Palin vindicated.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Your objectivity is so subjective, Finn. You need a court case & a jury decision to label an obvious misuse of power as such. And even then you might label the decision as dubious.

I think it’s your objectivity that is question here, as usual. Let’s look at this from a different point of view. I work in a certain department with several colleagues. Several of whom I personally don’t like, and one of which I found to be in opposition to the direction I think the department should go. Then one day I become department head. One of the first things that I’m going to do is make sure that everyone working under me is going to play ball, and if they don’t, I’m going to fire them. That’s my authority granted to me by my position, because that’s my job. Then someone come along and decides that since they don’t like my point of view of how the department should be run, they’ll ignore the pertinent issue that I had reason to believe that this person wasn’t going to work out in my department, and instead focus on the irrelevant issue that I personally didn’t like the guy. It don't change the fact that I did my job correctly.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KHYRON

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:34 PM

Palin is found to have abused her powers, violated state ethics and lied about it.

Why am I not surprised that Republicans don't have a problem with that?

Edit: By the way, the McCain/Palin ticket now features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

------------------------------

Trolls Against McCain, my friends.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think it’s your objectivity that is question here, as usual.

LOL, look at this:

Quote:
Wasn't Monegan fired for poor performance?

Palin says so. She claimed in an Aug. 13 press conference that she was disappointed in budget issues, recruitment and Monegan's handling of rural bootlegging. On this last issue, however, there is a contradiction with statements she had made three weeks earlier, when she told local television station KTVA that she thought Monegan would make a great director of the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board: "I recognize that Walt's interest in the area certainly could be put to good use," she said, "as he could concentrate exclusively on a couple of issues that were his interest, that being bootlegging and alcohol problems in rural Alaska."

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1840675,00.html

Your predilection for irrelevance aside Finn, this should stink from either side of the aisle.
Funny how when Obama skeletons are discovered, I'm able to acknowledge them as well, but the Repos are all teflon-like to you.

isall

RIGHTEOUS9

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:47 PM

Finn and Auraptor, she was said to have abused her power by trying to apply pressure on the commisioner to fire Wooten,

It sounds like it was no slam dunk that she fired Monegan exclusively because of his refusal to comply with her demands. So the actual termination was not deemed outside of her right as governor. that doesn't change the fact that she acted inappropriately as Governor...I love how you guys intentionally weasel around the details.

Here are some more "non-issues," for people who apparently don't believe in issues when it comes to their candidates
.............................................

Source: AP

By GARANCE BURKE | Associated Press Writer
11:12 AM EDT, October 11, 2008
1 2 next WASILLA, Alaska (AP) _ The camera closes in on Sarah Palin speaking to young missionaries, vowing from the pulpit to do her part to implement God's will from the governor's office.

What she didn't tell worshippers gathered at the Wasilla Assembly of God church in her hometown was that her appearance that day came courtesy of Alaskan taxpayers, who picked up the $639.50 tab for her airplane tickets and per diem fees.

An Associated Press review of the Republican vice presidential candidate's record as mayor and governor reveals her use of elected office to promote religious causes, sometimes at taxpayer expense and in ways that blur the line between church and state.

Since she took state office in late 2006, the governor and her family have spent more than $13,000 in taxpayer funds to attend at least 10 religious events and meetings with Christian pastors, including Franklin Graham, the son of evangelical preacher Billy Graham, records show.

Read more:

http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-palin-...

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Palin is found to have abused her powers, violated state ethics and lied about it.

Why am I not surprised that Republicans don't have a problem with that?

SOP for GOP.

FYIisall

AURAPTOR

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Palin is found to have abused her powers, violated state ethics and lied about it.

Why am I not surprised that Republicans don't have a problem with that?

Edit: By the way, the McCain/Palin ticket now features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

Don't even ask us go get into Joe's plagerism issues.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Your predilection for irrelevance aside Finn, this should stink from either side of the aisle.
Funny how when Obama skeletons are discovered, I'm able to acknowledge them as well, but the Repos are all teflon-like to you.

I see, Obama associates himself with terrorists and racists, and you claim that a governor doing her job is just as bad? Sounds to me, like you’re desperate to find anything to equalize an egregious imbalance in character between Palin and Obama. Maybe you should just accept the fact that Obama isn’t really the person you want to support in this election.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Finn and Auraptor, she was said to have abused her power by trying to apply pressure on the commisioner to fire Wooten,

It sounds like it was no slam dunk that she fired Monegan exclusively because of his refusal to comply with her demands. So the actual termination was not deemed outside of her right as governor. that doesn't change the fact that she acted inappropriately as Governor...I love how you guys intentionally weasel around the details.

In other words, Palin had reasons independent of her personal views to fire Monegan. Case closed.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I'm very proud of Sarah Palin and Todd Palin and the way they acted during this entire thing. Set aside the politics for one minute if you can. Stop and think clearly. Think about her sister, her nephew, and her father as just American citizens with civil rights. There's a father, a State Trooper who is an abusive dangerous loose cannon. He abuses the wife, tasers his own 10 year old son, he threatens to kill his wife and Sarah's father. The Palin's excersized tremendous restraint in their efforts to have him removed for Public Safety concerns. By any measure of justice and safety that Commissioner who she fired was just an arrogant bastard. He worked for her. He was simply insubordinate in defying her. That Trooper thought his closeness to the Governor gave him special priviledge to behave like a lunatic, threaten to kill people, DECLARE HIMSELF PROUDLY TO BE UNTOUCHABLE & LAUGH, and batter his son. That is far greater an abuse of power than anything the Palins did. Now he's being portayed as something akin to a born-again Tookie Wilson, a Mr. Nice Guy or something. What a pathetic and dis-honest ploy. Now, back to politics. You Dems are salivating like diseased vultures over a fresh corpse because you feel this will hurt her & McCain. Twenty-four days is plenty of time for this to be absorbed by voters. Sarah and Todd will tell their story and we'll see how America responds. The depth of this Trooper's cruelness and neaderthalism went a tad beyond what NBC news calls "a messy divorce." If it had been the Clintons back in Arkansas, that Trooper would have been quietly picked up by guys in trenchcoats and shot in the woods and dumped in the river.

That's great, thx for the clarification on how bad this guy was - what a jerk!
And good for her that she'll have had some experience with people like that because in her new job I've heard that some of them feriners peoples that hate us are kind of tough to deal with too, like that guy from Iran - bet he'd taser his son! She'll set him straight! Or at least get him in the news papers where he'll be all embarrassed and and end up apologizin'! I bet them Iranies hate banjo music too!

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I see, Obama associates himself with terrorists and racists

Exaggerate it why don't ya?

Hey- did you take over Finn's IP, AURaptor??
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH FINN!?!?!?!

This is so beyond my comprehension...Finn used to be quite logical...

OUR NEXT ARGUMENT:
I say Ceiling Cat in the fourth!

isall

KHYRON

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:02 PM

Finn, Bill Ayers is a Distinguished Professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, College of Education. There are a lot of people who have or have had contact with him, particularly, surprisingly, people in the field of education, as Obama did when he was working on education reform in Illinois. The Republican mayor Daley released this statement ( http://billayers.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/mayor-daley-speaks-out/):

Quote:
Mayor Daley Speaks Out

STATEMENT OF MAYOR RICHARD M. DALEY REGARDING SENATOR BARACK OBAMA’S RELATIONSHIP WITH BILL AYERS:

There are a lot of reasons that Americans are angry about Washington politics. And one more example is the way Senator Obama’s opponents are playing guilt-by-association, tarring him because he happens to know Bill Ayers.

I also know Bill Ayers. He worked with me in shaping our now nationally-renowned school reform program. He is a nationally-recognized distinguished professor of education at the University of Illinois/Chicago and a valued member of the Chicago community.

I don’t condone what he did 40 years ago but I remember that period well. It was a difficult time, but those days are long over. I believe we have too many challenges in Chicago and our country to keep re-fighting 40 year old battles.

I have to be honest with you, Finn, I expected more from you. You're too smart to buy into the hate- and fear-mongering by the McCain camp.

But if you think association-by-guilt is fair game, please explain to us why Todd Palin was a long-time member of the AIP.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is so beyond my comprehension...Finn used to be quite logical...

Yes, he was, I'm also very confused, it's not like him ...

------------------------------

Trolls Against McCain, my friends.

RIGHTEOUS9

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:03 PM

Finn,

you did it again,

and why do you keep doing it, really?

It is possible she had more than that reason to fire him. it is even possible that she fired him for other reasons entirely, according to the current findings,

those same findings that determined that she ABUSED HER POWER when trying to force the commisioner to cave to her demands.

Republicans, and Democrats together sided this way. CASE CLOSED.

why can't you at least be stand up enough to admit that she was ethically in the wrong there?

You aren't adressing it, you're just glossing over it.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

why can't you at least be stand up enough to admit that she was ethically in the wrong there?

I'm tellin' ya, AU is posting as Finn...or at the very least, Finn's mind is being controlled by the Mah-shins.

Chrisisall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I see, Obama associates himself with terrorists and racists
Exaggerate it why don't ya?

Well there is a person who is a terrorist and a person is a racist that Obama has been associated with – that’s not an exaggeration. The nature of that association has been argued, but the associations themselves have been admitted by Obama. These are some of the skeletons that have been pulled out of Obama’s closet, which I find far more disturbing then Palin exercising her rightful authority as governor to fire a person for reasons independent of her personals views.

Find something else. Because this doesn’t even start to equate to Obama’s skeletons.

But the cat picture is pretty cool.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
It is possible she had more than that reason to fire him

It doesn’t make any difference whether she did or not, objectively. She had reasons for firing the guy independent of her personal views. So it doesn’t really make any difference what her personal views are, accept that it gives people opportunities to play politics.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KHYRON

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Don't even ask us go get into Joe's plagerism issues.

Okay, I won't.

So are you proud of having two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards? It must give you such a nice, warm, comforting feeling deep inside, right?

The Republican Party really has become the party that hates intelligence and competence, and it's not me who's saying that, that's from David Brooks ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/10/opinion/10brooks.html?_r=1&oref=slog
in).

You love Reagan so much, do you think he would've approved of this type of campaigning? Heck, he and Nancy distanced themselves from McCain after he left his first wife because even then they thought he was too unethical as a person.

------------------------------

Trolls Against McCain, my friends.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Palin exercising her rightful authority as governor to fire a person for reasons independent of her personals views.

?????
Finn, you DON'T and CAN'T know that (sound familiar there?

), why can YOU 'KNOW' something like that & others can't? Grandiosity much?

Yeah, the cat picture is cool, I happened upon itisall

RIGHTEOUS9

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:13 PM

ignored the kernal about Palin abusing power again, I see.

want to go for another post? I bet you could do it all day.

KHYRON

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:15 PM

Chris is right, AURaptor got a hold of Finn's log-in details somehow, I don't recognize this Finn at all. Or maybe it IS Finn, and he's sold is soul in pursuit of grand power for the GOP ... much like McCain himself ... poetic ...

------------------------------

Trolls Against McCain, my friends.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
She had reasons for firing the guy independent of her personal views.

Yeah, she, uh, thought he could recruit better, and uh, his budgets needed work- sounds like firin' territory to me!

You SO know you're wrong on this one Finn. You put up a good act, though.

isall

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Finn, you DON'T and CAN'T know that (sound familiar there?), why can YOU 'KNOW' something like that & others can't? Grandiosity much?

I also can’t know that she abused her authority. You’re putting faith in the outcome of an investigation that could very likely be politically motivated. All I’m saying is that

1. as governor she was within her rightful authority to fire the guy, that much I know

and

2. She had reasons independent of her personal views that much is admitted to by the investigation.

So the investigation states that she abused her authority because she had personal reasons for firing Monegan, while at the same time stating that there were legitimate reasons. But if there were legitimate reasons then what difference to the personal reasons make? I can only fire people I like?????? No. I can fire people I don’t like. I just have to have a reason for it, which evidently Palin did.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RIGHTEOUS9

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:31 PM

now we're getting a little further,

but you're still conflating two different things,

Palin was found to have abused her authority because she tried to get the trooper fired, something she had no business getting involved in.

I'm not going to mention a sentance about the rest of it, because that seems to confuse matters greatly...somehow.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
But if there were legitimate reasons then what difference to the personal reasons make? I can only fire people I like??????

Of course not, but my instinct tells me that she did it to eff with her dick brother-in-law's non-firing decider, not legitimate governing reasons, just like when I heard "I did not have sexual relations with that woman..." my instinct told me Clinton was doing a Pinnoccio without the nose growth.

Instinctual Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

Palin was found to have abused her authority because she tried to get the trooper fired

She also laced his toothpaste with a deadly poison, but lucky for him dental hygiene was a lower priority than kid-taserin'.

Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:56 PM

Hey, I voted for Romney.

Don't blame me.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KIRKULES

Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
The ACORN thing will be Obama's undoing. Gave them $ 800,000 from his campaign. Was their former mentor. Was their attorney. They're under FBI investigation in 8 states for voter fraud. They been convicted dozens of times before. They keep getting millions of dollars from Liberals, their offices have been raided by FBI and state investigators, and there are now piles of brand new sworn statements and un-deniable evidence testifying to gross voter registration fraud, numbering in the the 10's of thousands. That's 10,000's of crimes and felonies, almost exclusively favoring Democrats. And committed by recruited and funded Democrat operatives in the field. What's worse? Someone stealing your vote, or stealing your money? Answer. Democrats stole them both. And I'm sorry Dems, but there's a very clear and straight line from these felonious vote stealers to Obama and his campaign.

And by the way, you Obama supporters were certainly correct in your arched-back indignation over Palin's use of the term Community Organizer for Obama. I can see why. That's some community! ACORN, AYERS, WRIGHT, FLEAGER, , and of course, the big daddy, the millionnaire slumlord of the community, Tony the Man REZKO. Obama sure drank from Rezko's fountain now, didn't he? All of these despicable human beings and organizations are hardly simple and innocent associations for Obama as is the often-heard pitiful defense, rather more a brotherhood of radical purpose, including deep involvements and working relationships, in harmony of spirit and cause, and with large financial connections as well. The man had NO judgement, he was one of them, but now he doesn't like any of them anymore. Contemplate that my friends when your're getting all spun about with Palin.

I wish McCain had someone like Riverlove writing his campain comercials, he'd win in a landslide.

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:39 AM

It's funny how the right ignores the facts when it comes to Obama's associations, and also ignores the facts when it comes to McCain's and Palin's associations. As Colbert said, reality just has a strong liberal bias.

Can SOMEBODY (ANYBODY!) please explain to me why it's alright to run for the White House and be married to a long-time secessionist!?

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:

I wish McCain had someone like Riverlove writing his campain comercials, he'd win in a landslide.

Riverlove brings up many cogent points- things to remember & keep an eye on, but none of that, let me repeat, NONE OF THAT mitigates the sheer lack O' brains on the Palin/McCain ticket.

In my (more) perfect world, it'd be Obama/Palin; now THAT would be interesting.

Hee hee Chrisisall

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:54 AM

Chris, having Palin on any ticket wouldn't be a more perfect world.

Another question I have: Why did Palin quote (uncredited) Westbrook Pegler, the mid-century Hearst columnist famous for his anti-Semitism, racism and violent rhetorical excess, in her convention speech?

What if Obama had done something similar, like quote Farrakhan? It would've been the end of his campaign.

I've asked so many questions in the last few weeks, I've not received a single answer to any of them. Which is depressing, because it shows me that the people on the right on this board know McCain/Palin are corrupt, have acted indefensibly in the past and are completely unfit for office, yet they still support them.

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

MALBADINLATIN

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall: Riverlove brings up many cogent points- things to remember & keep an eye on, but none of that, let me repeat, NONE OF THAT mitigates the sheer lack O' brains on the Palin/McCain ticket.

Conservative candidates have sought solice on the hallowed ground Bush won on...way past the point on the political spectrum where church wins out over college as the best education one can obtain.

In this netherworld, no magazines or newspapers are read, computers are not operated, Putin flies over head trying to ruin oil and gas regulation in Alaska. Liberals are devils that destroy the economy, loose wars, and conspire with socialists and terrorists, and fancy talkin' "elitist" stranger folk are not welcome.

Thank the stars, god, whomever that those days are numbered.......jinx!! knock on wood!

Trolls against McCain

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Chris, having Palin on any ticket wouldn't be a more perfect world.

Okay, so I was being my usual idiot self in suggesting Obama/Palin; the in-fighting 'twixt them in office would be most entertaining, albeit completely unproductive.

Quote:

I've asked so many questions in the last few weeks, I've not received a single answer to any of them. Which is depressing, because it shows me that the people on the right on this board know McCain/Palin are corrupt, have acted indefensibly in the past and are completely unfit for office, yet they still support them.

Yeah, but let's not behave as if the Obama/Biden ticket is squeeky clean, at their heart, they still represent status quo BS, just a more palatable version IMO.

In a true more perfect world, we'd get Eastwood/Nader, but whatca gonna do?

Chrisisall

KWICKO

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:31 AM

Quote:

Another question I have: Why did Palin quote (uncredited) Westbrook Pegler, the mid-century Hearst columnist famous for his anti-Semitism, racism and violent rhetorical excess, in her convention speech?

What if Obama had done something similar, like quote Farrakhan? It would've been the end of his campaign.

I've asked so many questions in the last few weeks, I've not received a single answer to any of them. Which is depressing, because it shows me that the people on the right on this board know McCain/Palin are corrupt, have acted indefensibly in the past and are completely unfit for office, yet they still support them.

It's even worse than you know. Palin isn't just married to a secessionist - she has attended their convention SEVERAL times, and given addresses at it twice, INCLUDING THIS YEAR! She wants Alaska to separate from the United States, but still believes that she is the best person to serve as Vice President (and probably President within four years) of the United States.

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

KIRKULES

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
It's funny how the right ignores the facts when it comes to Obama's associations, and also ignores the facts when it comes to McCain's and Palin's associations. As Colbert said, reality just has a strong liberal bias.

Can SOMEBODY (ANYBODY!) please explain to me why it's alright to run for the White House and be married to a long-time secessionist!?

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

It seems like you're the one ignoring the facts when it comes to Obama's associations. Conservatives are well aware of McCain's flaws, but at this point he's our only option. Almost all politicians today are flawed in one way or another, we have made the judgment that McCain will do less damage than Obama. Politician are like policemen, just the fact that they want the job should disqualify them. You have to be somewhat screwed up to want either job. Just look at the recent 700 billion dollar bailout, by the time it got passed, dumb ass politicians added 150 billion in pork. The biggest financial crises in 100 years and they thought it was a good idea to load up the solution with what caused the problem in the first place, and McCain and Obama both supported it.

On the "secessionist" thing, I think it's a matter of what you think is worse, someone who thinks it's alright to pal around with a domestic terrorist or someone who theoretically believes that a State should be able to secede from the union. Thomas Jefferson thought so, and he's still a pretty popular dude where I come from. I think if you would take a poll of those living south of the Mason Dixon Line you'd find the majority still think secession in legal.

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
On the "secessionist" thing, I think it's a matter of what you thinks is worse, someone who thinks it's alright to pal around with a domestic terrorist or someone who theoretically believes that a State should be able to secede from the union.

Fine, just ignore the post I made about why Obama was associated with him and that even Republicans, including the mayor, are associated with him as well. Ignoring the facts is a well-known strategy by the GOP base - or is it a tactic?

Quote:
Thomas Jefferson thought so, and he's still a pretty popular dude where I come from. I think if you would take a poll of those living south of the Mason Dixon Line you'd find the majority still think secession in legal.

Alright, you have a VP candidate married to a guy who hates America so much that he doesn't want his home state to be a part of it, and you say that's just fine because people in the South are okay with it too? I'm not talking about the legality of it, I'm talking about the patriotism. You'll have a guy who doesn't respect America enough to want to be a part of it spitting tobacco and putting his feet on the desk in the Oval Office. Are you really okay with that, or are you just telling yourself you should be okay with that because having an educated liberal person in there is worse?

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:

On the "secessionist" thing, I think it's a matter of what you think is worse, someone who thinks it's alright to pal around with a domestic terrorist or someone who theoretically believes that a State should be able to secede from the union.

Kirk, my respect for you has increased with this post; your reasoning is, er, something, er, worthy of respect *not the best worded sentence ever*.

But really, is a person always a terrorist, even if he's renounced his past violent ways? Even if he's changed at his core beliefs? Is there no redemption?
Did Darth Vader not learn??
Can't Obama be allowed to consort with peeps that have a severely checkered past?
If not- then Bush is likely a terrorist as well, and surely Cheney, who palled around with Saddam hisself....

Now, if only Palin would give up her stupidity and embrace knowledge & geography....

Chrisisall

SWISH

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I wish McCain had someone like Riverlove writing his campain comercials, he'd win in a landslide.

Wow - I find that entertaining. I read RL's post and thought: OK, first Palin was the thing that was going to sink the Dems, and since Palin has turned out to be nothing but a dead weight on McCain, now it's this ACORN thing that'll do it.

Seems to me that folks like Riverlove are desperate for anything to back up their fear of Obama, and are ready to cling to any wispy thin thing that might do it. Which falls right in line with McCain's pathetic grasping for straws over the past few weeks, and which is precisely why he's losing independents, and hence the election. So - I don't see RL's approach as that much different than the one's that bombing for McCain right now.

But more than than that I have to wonder, and I was wondering it before things got so creepy in the past week: do you Obama haters really believe that he is a terrorist in disguise who is secretly out to destroy America?

Really, really really I'm wondering. Because my assumption so far has been that no one really believes that. You might be afraid of Obama for other reasons and think: "But hey, if we can convince the idiotic electorate, all those proles in Dumbf*ck, Oklahoma that Obama's a terrorist, then he'll lose and that's all that matters. Because McCain has better policies."

Hey, I sympathize with that. I certainly hoped for anything to keep Bush out in 2000 and 2004. Anything, really. I though Bush was bad for reasons that the regular electorate wasn't going to figure out, so I had to hope for *anything* to shut him down. Unfortunately, it didn't happen.

So I get it - scare the idiots enough with implausible BS about Barack "Hussein" and that's just better in the long run for you who love McCain. Right?

But the events of the past week have got me wondering: are you Obama haters not playing, but you really and truly believe that he's a Muslim terrorist America hater out to do nothing but tear the US down? Really, no snark here - do you really believe that?

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:07 AM

Chris, you've also given me some head-scratchers in this thread, your last post complementing Kirkules on what was pure sophism is one of them, and here's another:

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah, but let's not behave as if the Obama/Biden ticket is squeeky clean, at their heart, they still represent status quo BS, just a more palatable version IMO.

I'm not arguing that the Obama/Biden ticket is squeaky clean, and arguing against this hate- and fear-mongering smear campaign shouldn't be seen as saying "My team is perfect!". Every independent, objective analysis of the Obama/Ayers relationship that I've seen has said that there's nothing at all sinister about it. Yet telling the real story behind the Ayers non-issue is seen as being "subjective" or "partisan".

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

KIRKULES

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

But really, is a person always a terrorist, even if he's renounced his past violent ways? Even if he's changed at his core beliefs? Is there no redemption?
Did Darth Vader not learn??
Can't Obama be allowed to consort with peeps that have a severely checkered past?
If not- then Bush is likely a terrorist as well, and surely Cheney, who palled around with Saddam hisself....

Now, if only Palin would give up her stupidity and embrace knowledge & geography....

I do think it's possible for someone to somewhat redeem themselves, but Ayers has very recently said things that lead me to believe he has not changed. He's just mellowed a little with age and so he can run in the liberal elite circles. I think Obama actually shares many of Ayres radical views, though I'm sure Obama would never condone violence. Darth Vader is a little harder case as he actually destroyed an entire planet. I don't think there's any coming back from that.

KIRKULES

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
So I get it - scare the idiots enough with implausible BS about Barack "Hussein" and that's just better in the long run for you who love McCain. Right?

But the events of the past week have got me wondering: are you Obama haters not playing, but you really and truly believe that he's a Muslim terrorist America hater out to do nothing but tear the US down? Really, no snark here - do you really believe that?

I think you have invented most of the Obama hatred you see in your own head. Nobody here that I've seen has suggested that Obama is a terrorist, just that it shows bad judgment hanging out with one. Most of the Conservatives here have said that they think Obama is a good man. I have quite a few liberal/socialist/commie friends and I have no problem with that. If any one of them ran for President I would appose them just as strongly as I appose Obama.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Chris, you've also given me some head-scratchers in this thread, your last post complementing Kirkules on his sophism is one of them

I just mean to say that giving reasoning of any sort trumps blind 'Obama is evil' rhetoric.

Quote:
and here's another:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah, but let's not behave as if the Obama/Biden ticket is squeeky clean, at their heart, they still represent status quo BS, just a more palatable version IMO.
I'm not arguing that the Obama/Biden ticket is squeaky clean, and arguing against this hate- and fear-mongering smear campaign shouldn't be seen as saying "My team is perfect!".

No, I get that, I'm just trying to come at this from all angles to demonstrate to the right wingers that Obama is not the Chosen one who will liberate us from all the problems we now face. As far as I'm concerned, he's the sanest choice in this insane world.

Connorisall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Nobody here that I've seen has suggested that Obama is a terrorist, just that it shows bad judgment hanging out with one.

I do not believe that occasional meetings constitute 'hanging out with'.
But your mileage may vary.

isall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Darth Vader is a little harder case as he actually destroyed an entire planet. I don't think there's any coming back from that.

Re: Bush, how about destroying a small part of one, does that count as well? Some Iraqis may beg to differ with you on that.

isall

KWICKO

Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:16 AM

Quote:
I have quite a few liberal/socialist/commie friends and I have no problem with that. If any one of them ran for President I would appose them just as strongly as I appose Obama.

I take it then that you are just as strongly opposed to the Bush Administration's "Surge" in Iraq? Because one of the key points of the surge is PAYING terrorists not to attack us. And then paying them to fight for us. In other words, our own military, at the behest of the White House and the Pentagon, is "palling around with" terrorists.

Also, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is known to have palled around with Saddam Hussein.

Or was that all in the distant past?

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

KWICKO

Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:22 AM

Also, there's some evidence that Todd and Sarah Palin have their own checkered past when it comes to domestic terrorism, in the person of Alaska Indepence Party founder Joe Vogler:

Quote:

Vogler disappeared under suspicious circumstances in May 1993, just weeks before he was scheduled to give a speech to the United Nations on Alaskan independence, sponsored by the government of Iran. Convicted thief Manfried West confessed to having murdered Vogler the following year in what he described as a plastic explosives sale gone bad. Vogler's remains were discovered in a gravel pit east of Fairbanks in October 1994 following an anonymous tip. They had been wrapped in a blue tarp secured with duct tape and were identified through fingerprint analysis.

In the opinion of AIP Chair Lynette Clark and other AIP leaders, however, Vogler's death reflected more than a dispute with West. Clark has stated, "He was executed." She notes that Vogler was about to appear before the United Nations to address the issue of Alaskan independence: "The United States government would have been deeply embarrassed. And we can't have that, can we?"

Vogler was buried in Dawson City, Yukon Territory, Canada, fulfulling his wish that he not be buried under the American flag.

So what was a secessionist militia leader planning on doing with all those plastic explosives? Cooking moose, perhaps, or something more sinister?

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:23 AM

I appose Kirkules...

As opposed to opposeisall

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:45 AM

Guy was an asshole, Palin wanted his ass off the force - pushed the limits and stepped over em to do it, shit like that happens, especially in small towns.
I remain neutral on that aspect.

Quoting Pegler - so what, just cause he was a shithead and an asshole means he never said anything in his life that made sense ?
I mean, come on, Wernher von Braun was a former nazi, does that mean our space program is then evil because of that fact ?
Filed beneath notice or caring.

Married to a seccessionist - so what of it, it's an American value, even if it didn't work out last time cause we had a meglomaniac with a family history of insanity who was popping mercury (look up Blue Mass) during his time in the oval office.
Filed as a plus, actually.

Oh, and someone noted Jefferson supported secession - well then, shut the hell up about Ayers then, cause ole Jeffy boy also supported armed revolt and blowing shit up, both against the british (at which point he WAS a terrorist!) and against our own Government whenever it got out of sorts, or folk percieved that it did.

Besides which, america has plenty of radicals of all stripes, it's the presidents job to understand and relate to ALL americans, not just a single party, so I wouldn't bitch if either one of em had extended discussions with the Klan or Black Panthers, so long as they weren't takin money from them.

America's fulla different folks, some of whom are VERY different, and a president who can manage to best execute the will of those people and do so in a manner that most of them find acceptable - that's part of the job.

Most of this is, in the end, petty shit - McCains involvement with the Keating Five, that concerns me some, not necessarily due to any direct involvement so much as the poor judgement and flimsy ethics that got him mixed up in that mess in the first place.

Palin bothers me for reasons I've specified elsewhere, not the least of which being a closet zealot with a crusade in mind, and McCains visibly failing health does not give me warm fuzzies about the idea of this lady one step from the big chair.

Obama's lack of experience and affiliation with a party I can't stand is a big negative with me, but he's displayed admirable political and orator skill, however those things are not necessarily related to the skills to run the country, and thus he's a big question mark for me - and the possibility of him being steamrollered like Jimmy Carter quite frankly doesn't bother me so much as he picked a good choice for veep, and I'd *rather* he get steamrollered than abuse the broken walls around executive power that are all that remain these days.

Biden, now... he's smart, almost TOO smart - he's not a people person, or any great shakes as an orator or public figure, but the man gets shit DONE, and my primary concern about him is exactly what shit he intends to get done, cause he plays his cards real close, and happens to be quite masterful at the political equivalent of a magicians hand-fake.

Fact is, I don't LIKE either of these folk, but one of the things that convinced me to throw down for Obama, besides being totally creeped the fuck out by Palin when she tried to debate - is that McCain toes the party line as if it were the true gospel, and Obama was willing to do a little bucking, cause the Dems wanted Hillary soooo bad they were willing to do him dirty over it....

And yet HE walked away with the nomination, he ain't Bill Clinton slick, but Obama ain't nobodys fool either and does not regularly embarrass himself as the GOP candidates have done.

And the plain fact of it is - in the hands of the GOP, and with the Dems unwilling to reach down and find a pair, we've left our country in a pretty fuckin sorry shape, involved in a pair of futile and idiotic wars, a virtually destroyed economy, an infrastructure crumbling to bits, and everyone at each others throats... that is NOT a legacy of leadership to be proud of, and I do believe it's justifiable to reject their new fairhaired boy on that basis alone.

The answer to that is NOT to

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

That doesn't mean I LIKE the jugeared shitheel on the other end, it just means I think he's got a better chance of actually getting us moving in the right direction to solve some of this mess

As usual, what Frem said tm

Chrisisall

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quoting Pegler - so what, just cause he was a shithead and an asshole means he never said anything in his life that made sense ?
I mean, come on, Wernher von Braun was a former nazi, does that mean our space program is then evil because of that fact ?
Filed beneath notice or caring.

The point of the secessionist thing is to illustrate how easily the guilt-by-association angle can be turned around - for every dubious connection or association that Obama has (and Ayers isn't one of them), there are plenty worse on the other side.

And the hypocrisy is a general disillusionment I have with the current batch of conservatives. I don't particularly care about her quoting Pegler either, but we all know that had Obama quoted some unpopular character (e.g. Farrakhan, or even Wright), the conservatives wouldn't be able to stop shouting their fake outrage from every available media outlet for months afterwards. THAT was the point of bringing up Pegler.

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
It's funny how the right ignores the facts when it comes to Obama's associations, and also ignores the facts when it comes to McCain's and Palin's associations. As Colbert said, reality just has a strong liberal bias.

Can SOMEBODY (ANYBODY!) please explain to me why it's alright to run for the White House and be married to a long-time secessionist!?

------------------------------

It's apples and oranges, to be honest. Todd Palin is in NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER A " long time secessionist ". He looked into an minor politcal party for a few yrs, then decided to go another way, becoming an independent. Contrary to the 2 for 1 couples we see in politcs so often these days, that ain't Sarah and Todd. He's not running for V.P., she is.

There's a lot wrong with this country, and some feel that leaving it would be easier than to try to fix it. Liberals have made it clear they're willing to leave as well , and don't for a second try to deny that . Also, secessionist don't , as a rule, HATE nearly as much as the bombers or the racist that Obama hangs out with. So I'd shut your pie hole when wailing about there not being "equal coverage".

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:30 AM

How long was he in the AIP? 8 years, right? That doesn't say anything about his character to you? Or, more importantly, the type of characters that Sarah Palin pals around with? That's right, just forgive and forget...

It's true that Todd Palin isn't running for VP, but neither is William Ayers. And unlike Ayers, Todd Palin would be one heartbeat and one pillow away from the presidency.

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Todd Palin is in NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER A " long time secessionist ". He looked into an minor politcal party for a few yrs, then decided to go another way

Fuck you, you stupid, cherry pickin' idiotic, pathetic, unpatriotic douschebag, side yourself with the peeps that hate this country, why doncha??? Suck the blood from your fellow Americans' veins & call for more, you vampiric piece of elephant-humping, goose-stepping fan of rapture-embracing world-haters!!! You may want to see this planet end, like your Allmighty Bush, but I want to see it continue for our children, and their children, you slimy misanthrope!!!!!

Oh. I said I was done dealing with you directly.
Nevermind.

isall

KWICKO

Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:48 AM

Quote:

It's apples and oranges, to be honest. Todd Palin is in NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER A " long time secessionist ". He looked into an minor politcal party for a few yrs, then decided to go another way, becoming an independent.

According to several articles,

Quote:

Sources... have not been able to find documents that would confirm [Sarah] Palin's actual membership in the organization. However, Palin has been associated with the group for 15 years and has taken part in a number of AIP events. While confirmation of her membership has not been found, it has been confirmed that her husband, Todd Palin, was in fact a member of the AIP for several years....as recently as 2002. It's interesting that Todd Palin cleaned up his membership in the group only when his wife decided to run for State-wide office.

Several sources have confirmed him as being registered as a member of the AIP for at least seven years (admittedly more than your claim of "a few years"), and Sarah Palin has attended their conventions and addressed them, telling them at their convention just this year, "Your party plays an important role in our state's politics. We have a great promise: to be a self-sufficient state. Good luck on a successful and inspiring convention. Keep up the good work, and God bless you.""

Quote:
Also, secessionist [sic] don't , as a rule, HATE nearly as much as the bombers or the racist that Obama hangs out with. So I'd shut your pie hole when wailing about there not being "equal coverage".

Yes, secessionist leader Joe Vogler was a fountain of love for America, as evidenced by his own words:

Quote:
Quotes from AIP Founder Joe Vogler:

Joe Vogler, made these comments in 1991, in an interview that's now housed at the Oral History Program in the Rasmuson Library at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks.

"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government," Vogler said in the interview, in which he talked extensively about his desire for Alaskan secession, the key goal of the AIP.

"And I won't be buried under their damn flag," Vogler continued in the interview, which also touched on his disappointment with the American judicial system. "I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home.

“I’m an Alaskan, not an American. I’ve got no use for America or her damned institutions.”

Just thought you should know what kind of "patriots" your beloved little Sarah pals around with...

Quote:
He's not running for V.P., she is.

Oh, so now it's your position that who one associates with has nothing to do with it, eh? Double standard, much?

Mike

This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.

Trolls Against McCain!

KWICKO

Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:51 AM

Quote:
Suck the blood from your fellow Americans' veins & call for more, you vampiric piece of elephant-humping, goose-stepping fan of rapture-embracing world-haters!!!

Like this?

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 4:56 AM

Precisely, Mike.

And CRAppy must protect his Master, so get your Mr. Pointy ready- just in case.

Buffyisall

SIGNYM

Sunday, October 12, 2008 5:32 AM

Quote:
I also can’t know that she abused her authority. You’re putting faith in the outcome of an investigation that could very likely be politically motivated.

Well, since it was a bipartisan enquiry and you seem to know so much about what "they" think, maybe you can tell us what their motivation might be,

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:25 AM

Some of my friends here in Alabama are essentially secessionists. These are the same people who’s overt patriotism for their country offends many of the liberals now hypocritically condemning Alaskan secessionists for their supposed lack of patriotism. I’m an avid state’s rightist. I strongly believe in the idea of confederacy, even as I disagree with it for practical reasons. One can be a secessionist and still love one’s country. The US has a long history of such thinking. But there is a big difference between holding an opinion or a belief and practicing a belief through terrorism, such as the Bill Ayers who stated in 2001 that not only does he not regret his use of terrorism, but doesn’t discount such activity in the future.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
One can be a secessionist and still love one’s country.

Does.not.com.pute.

How can one love one's country but not want one's state to be a part of it? Aren't those two mutually exclusive?

Genuinelyconfusedisall

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

KIRKULES

Sunday, October 12, 2008 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
One can be a secessionist and still love one’s country.
Does.not.com.pute.

How can one love one's country but not want one's state to be a part of it? Aren't those two mutually exclusive?

Genuinelyconfusedisall

It's easy to see how someone might believe that succession might be necessary if you have witnessed the usurpation of your states rights by a federal government that no longer feels constrained by the Tenth Amendment. Alaska has been prevented from using it's vast natural resources by the federal government based on a ridiculous interpretation of the Interstate Commerce Clause. I think resistance by the States to the whims of the feds is just what this country needs to get back on track. The States have plenty of ability to resist the fed without any violence resulting.

“ The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Cons
titution

RIVERLOVE

Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
The ACORN thing will be Obama's undoing. Gave them $ 800,000 from his campaign. Was their former mentor. Was their attorney. They're under FBI investigation in 8 states for voter fraud. They been convicted dozens of times before. They keep getting millions of dollars from Liberals, their offices have been raided by FBI and state investigators, and there are now piles of brand new sworn statements and un-deniable evidence testifying to gross voter registration fraud, numbering in the the 10's of thousands. That's 10,000's of crimes and felonies, almost exclusively favoring Democrats. And committed by recruited and funded Democrat operatives in the field. What's worse? Someone stealing your vote, or stealing your money? Answer. Democrats stole them both. And I'm sorry Dems, but there's a very clear and straight line from these felonious vote stealers to Obama and his campaign.

And by the way, you Obama supporters were certainly correct in your arched-back indignation over Palin's use of the term Community Organizer for Obama. I can see why. That's some community! ACORN, AYERS, WRIGHT, FLEAGER, , and of course, the big daddy, the millionnaire slumlord of the community, Tony the Man REZKO. Obama sure drank from Rezko's fountain now, didn't he? All of these despicable human beings and organizations are hardly simple and innocent associations for Obama as is the often-heard pitiful defense, rather more a brotherhood of radical purpose, including deep involvements and working relationships, in harmony of spirit and cause, and with large financial connections as well. The man had NO judgement, he was one of them, but now he doesn't like any of them anymore. Contemplate that my friends when your're getting all spun about with Palin.

I wish McCain had someone like Riverlove writing his campain comercials, he'd win in a landslide.

Kirkules, I appreciate your agreement. For me the most hysterical part of the Dem's position on Troopergate is that it may be the first time in recorded history that Liberals and other Dems support a police officer. It took an election for them to sacrifice their long-cherished hatred and suspicion of the police. Obama supporters think that everyone in America was all engaged and teary-eyed and star-struck watching the endless Democrat primary process. Everyone wasn't. Just weeding out Rev Al and Cynthia McKinney took them 92 debates. Lots of people never watched any of their debates, or heard their speeches. I remember seeing a few of their attack ads on TV against eachother.
Obama is the chosen one of the hard-core demented Left. I'm talking MoveON and Daily Kos radical, supported and vastly funded by George Soros. Then there's the cabal of crazies, Wright, Ayers, Farrakhan, Rezko et al. But even those dreadful reminders of Obama's judgement and purpose, whether in support, or his gross naivete in not knowing, pale in comparison to Obama's own shameful background of involvement with radicals and their various nefarious causes and methods. ACORN is the worst example of people attempting subterfuge against the basic American principle of one-man, one-vote. That's how they think. The facts and records show Obama as central in their training and legal representation, and of course direct funding from his campaign. ACORN also had their dirty little felonious hands in the mortgage mess. They aggressively pressured banks to cast aside basic tenets of fiscal responsibility to give mortgages to anyone. When banks resisted that insanity ACORN went to Washington DC and found supporters in Chris Dodd and Barney Franks. They already had Obama & Franklin Raines on their team. Then they all went to work to destroy and bankrupt Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under the guise of helping poor people. Along the way Obama, Dodd & Franks got millions for themselves. Franks got a little more, something special if ya know what I mean (wink, wink). The rest is history.

KHYRON

Sunday, October 12, 2008 12:19 PM

Kirkules, thanks for the answer, and while what you say does make sense, I still think the gap between patriotism and secessionism is too big to be bridged. If one feels the fed is taking too many rights away from the state (no argument from me there), why not try to fight for legislation that gives the state more rights to manage its own resources instead of fighting to secede from the Union? The latter option still doesn't seem like a patriotic thing to do.

Btw, I'm not out to prove a point about Todd Palin at the moment, right now I'm genuinely confused about the secessionist mindset and want to understand it better.

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Obama is the chosen one of the hard-core demented Left. I'm talking MoveON and Daily Kos radical

Don't forget the demented conservatives too!

http://www.dmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?nm=Core+Pages&type=gen&mod=Cor
e+Pages&tier=3&gid=B33A5C6E2CF04C9596A3EF81822D9F8E

Also read the comments.

------------------------------

McCain/Palin: The first presidential ticket that features two candidates who have both been found to have violated ethics standards.

KIRKULES

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I appose Kirkules...

As opposed to opposeisall

You're one of those guys that stood around in the halls in high-school making fun of the retarded kids aren't you?

Retardedisall

SWISH

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I think you have invented most of the Obama hatred you see in your own head.

"Kill him!" "Terrorist!" I'm not making that up. Nor am I making up the accusations McCain and Palin have made and kool-aid drinkers have echoed, that Obama is "hiding" something. That Obama needs to come clean about his "true" association with Ayers. What I want to know is: what the hell is he supposedly hiding? What is really to fear here? Specifically?

Quote:
He's Nobody here that I've seen has suggested that Obama is a terrorist, just that it shows bad judgment hanging out with one.

Surely you see how weak this is. Ayers is one of the hundreds of people Obama has encountered in his years as a politician. They worked on something unrelated to Ayer's past, and - more importantly - completely unrelated to Obama's presidency. Obama does not "pal" around with this guy. Obama does not adhere to Ayers's ideals. So where is the danger that has McCainites so up in arms?

The thing I find really bizarre is that you can take this tiny, irrelevant thing as evidence of some kind of monumentally poor judgement from Obama, and yet you don't question McCain's decision making skills. The Keating 5 financial scandal and McCain's lifelong support of non-regulation is much more relevant to the present Wall Street situation than who sat on a panel with Obama a long time ago.

And talking about relevant - how about McCain choosing an ignorant, vindictive, devisive running mate with a history of unethical behavior and abuse of power? Haven't we learned what happens to our govt when the president hands out jobs based on politics rather than merit? When politicians think that laws and ethics don't apply to them? I mean, I'd kind of prefer that the Justice Department not continue to be stocked with people like Sarah Palin. (God help us!) I'd like to have a JD that does it's nonpartisan job for a change.

That's the kind of judgement that matters in our next president - don't promote idiots! Who's the one promoting idiots here?

Quote:
I have quite a few liberal/socialist/commie friends and I have no problem with that. If any one of them ran for President I would appose them just as strongly as I appose Obama.

Note the difference from the Ayers situation: you would oppose your friends based on what you know about them, not based on some schmoe they had a cup of coffee with a decade ago.

Hey, if you want to argue against Obama's policies, please do. But policies are clearly not what this Ayers thing is about.

SWISH

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's apples and oranges, to be honest. Todd Palin is in NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER A " long time secessionist ". He looked into an minor politcal party for a few yrs, then decided to go another way, becoming an independent. Contrary to the 2 for 1 couples we see in politcs so often these days, that ain't Sarah and Todd. He's not running for V.P., she is.

And yet we've just had a bipartisan report stating that Todd did a whole lot of official work for her:

"Todd Palin would become a familiar voice for the Palin administration. Independent legislative investigator Stephen Branchflower's report on Monegan's subsequent firing -- in part, the investigation found, because he wouldn't fire Wooten -- contains an exhaustive record of Todd Palin's frequent and intimate presence in the day-to-day workings of his wife's administration.

Testimony compiled as part of the inquiry, and The Times' own review of e-mail logs from the administration, show that Todd Palin was a fixture in the governor's office, spending about half of his time there. He attended Cabinet meetings that are supposed to be closed to the public, and was copied on a wide variety of high-level government correspondence on issues such as contract negotiations with the police officers union, Alaska Native issues and the privatization of a dairy near the Palins' hometown of Wasilla."

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-todd12-2008oct12,0,6624850.
story

Quote:
Also, secessionist don't , as a rule, HATE nearly as much as the bombers or the racist that Obama hangs out with.

Oh, I see. Yes, clearly it's written in the Universal Secessionist Charter that one must not ever go beyond Hate Factor 3, while the Friends of Obama Manifesto demands a Hate Factor of at least 7. Indeed, it's right there in the rules!!

What in the hell are you smoking, AURaptor?

AURAPTOR

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:

Quote:
Also, secessionist don't , as a rule, HATE nearly as much as the bombers or the racist that Obama hangs out with.
Oh, I see. Yes, clearly it's written in the Universal Secessionist Charter that one must not ever go beyond Hate Factor 3, while the Friends of Obama Manifesto demands a Hate Factor of at least 7. Indeed, it's right there in the rules!!

What in the hell are you smoking, AURaptor?

What the hell are YOU smoking ? Secessionist are those who simply want to dissolve the politcal bonds which connect them w/ our own country. I was responding to another post which was comparing Obama's friends ( Ayers and Rev Wright ) to Palin's HUSBAND's distant associates, a political party he no longer supports that favors secession to the USA. They don't want WAR with the U.S. they just want to govern themselves.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SWISH

Sunday, October 12, 2008 1:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
What the hell are YOU smoking ? Secessionist are those who simply want to dissolve the politcal bonds which connect them w/ our own country.

And they all follow a particular set of rules? Wow, how neat and tidy the world must look to you. Too bad it just isn't that way.

Quote:
I was responding to another post which was comparing Obama's friends ( Ayers and Rev Wright ) to Palin's HUSBAND's distant associates, a political party he no longer supports that favors secession to the USA. They don't want WAR with the U.S. they just want to govern themselves.

Hunh. You must have missed Kwicko's post, so let me just repeat:

Quote:
Joe Vogler, made these comments in 1991, in an interview that's now housed at the Oral History Program in the Rasmuson Library at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks.

"The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government," Vogler said in the interview, in which he talked extensively about his desire for Alaskan secession, the key goal of the AIP.

"And I won't be buried under their damn flag," Vogler continued in the interview, which also touched on his disappointment with the American judicial system. "I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home.

“I’m an Alaskan, not an American. I’ve got no use for America or her damned institutions.”

No hate there. Nope. Nothing that could turn to violence. (Cause that would be against smokin' Rap's rules.

) No, surely it would go something like this: "Hey, can we Alaskans succeed from the Union? No? OK, then, we'll just sit up here and love America peacefully from afar, and maybe ask again in a decade or so. Thanks so much for your time!

"

AURAPTOR

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:12 PM

kwickie....

Todd was registered for a few yrs, but only ACTIVE for like 2. Gov. Palin's welcome video was nothing more than a chamber of commerce duty, where she's simply greeting the members of a group holding a convention in Fairbanks. Conventions bring in money to a city , and she was being nothing more than appreciative of that fact.

How many bombs did Joe Vogler plant? Oh, that'd be none.

BTW, Joe's been dead for 15 yrs now. I'm pretty sure Sara and Todd aren't palling around " with him any more.

No double standard when you compare Barack's direct ties to Bill Ayers and a 20+ yr relationship w/ a racist Reverend who teaches Black Liberation Theology to a dead guy who had no ties to the Palins.

Blah blah blah, personal insult , blah blah blah.....

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:

For me the most hysterical part of the Dem's position on Troopergate is that it may be the first time in recorded history that Liberals and other Dems support a police officer.

For the record, I believe he's probably a jerk.

isall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
One can be a secessionist and still love one’s country.

Oh, I get it, if they're Republican, right? But if you're NOT Republican, having a meeting with a terrorist means you HATE this country...see, this is why I can't take you seriously anymore, Finn, if Obama was a secessionist, you'd be flaming him for it, and if Palin was meeting with a terrorist, you'd say she was gathering info on other points of view- you are so laughably skewed in one direction, yet you seem able to convince yourself you're not somehow.

isall

CHRISISALL

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:

http://www.dmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?nm=Core+Pages&type=gen&mod=Cor
e+Pages&tier=3&gid=B33A5C6E2CF04C9596A3EF81822D9F8E

Today it is conservatives, not liberals, who talk with alarming bellicosity about making the world “safe for democracy.” It is John McCain who says America’s job is to “defeat evil,” a theological expansion of the nation’s mission that would make George Washington cough out his wooden teeth.

This kind of conservatism, which is not conservative at all, has produced financial mismanagement, the waste of human lives, the loss of moral authority, and the wreckage of our economy that McCain now threatens to make worse.

Yep.

Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:51 PM

Quote:
Todd was registered for a few yrs, but only ACTIVE for like 2.

And Barack worked with Ayers for ONLY five years, actually seeing him face to face less than a dozen time and participated in NONE of the Weather Underground activities, seeing as all that wa going on when he was... er... eight. Don't you think there's a qualitative difference between being an ACTIVE MEMBER of a secessionist movement, and working with someone on a committee for education reform who had a (long ago) past history? I certainly think so! Why izzit you can excuse the one but not the other? Whatever happened to rationality? As others have so eloquently said, if the situation was reversed... if Michell Obama had been an active member of a secessionist movement you'd be all over THAT like white in rice. Instead you find all kinds of excuses what that shoe is on YOUR candidate's foot!

Quote:
One can be a secessionist and still love one’s country.

But apparently one can't be a republican and still love one's country, as you have made SO PLAIN to me!

Fuck you both, assholes!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:59 PM

Chris, we're dealing with the hard-core authoritarian right here: Finn has unmasked himself, and we've known about Hero and Rapo for a long time. All they want to do is be folded into the bosom of their authority-figure, to see as they see, to think as they think and speak as they speak. They're frightened of "the other". I don't know what the answer is, but appeals to rationality won't work. They have NO INTEREST in being rational. They only want to be safe from whatever bogeymen their leaders have concocted for them.

Maybe if Obama is portrayed an authority-figure they'll bow under the lash. So how's THIS, ya right-wing morons: If Obama wins, YOU'LL be the new enemy. So:

Yo better watch out,
Yo better not cry,
Yo better not pout...
And I'm telling ya why...

Yeah, face your fears, you dickwads! Wallow in it until you know the length and breadth and depth of it. Until you're SICK of fear driving you!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, October 12, 2008 3:29 PM

Quote:
Haven't we learned what happens to our govt when the president hands out jobs based on politics rather than merit?

Apparently not - but if you wanna lay blame for that idea, lay it at the feet of Andrew Jackson.

While he had the right idea concerning Federalised Banking, he was the first to fully implement a political "spoils system" in that fashion, not to mention his treatment of Native Americans was downright criminal.

The virtues of our historic figures have never blinded me to their faults, and thus the same for modern ones.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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