Waterboarding- the real deal
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2008 01:12
VIEWED: 11112
PAGE 1 of 3
It's kinda easy for the mind to slide over unpleasantries, but not so easy to ignore when you see the real deal. So here it is:
www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/05/01/newton.uk.drowning.controve
rsy.cnn
I hope the link works for you.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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I'm fully and 100% for the waterboarding of terrorist. Now and always.
(Hey moron, close your mouth if you don't like it )
Perhaps we should show slow motion , high def images of hands being cut off, or tongues being cut out? Those would be ok then, right?
Hey, i know! Toss them into a building that's burning at 1000 degrees, and then give them the choice of melting there, or jumping out 80- 100 stories. Think Amnesty International will approve of THAT ???
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Thanks for the bump. I would have done it myself.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Thanks for the bump. I would have done it myself.
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"Global warming - it's not a fact, it just isn't."
So you favor the terrorists' sawing of heads or burning of civilians in buildings more than waterboarding ?
Color me not shocked - at all.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Auraptor, you're so fucking stupid.
I'm in favor of killing terrorists.
But until you've proven someone actually is a terrorist, torturing them makes you just as evil as the terrorists you are supposedly against.
See, there's this thing, this concept, of "innocent until proven guilty"... oh.. nevermind. You're nothing but a chicken-shit traitor, giving up your country's most cherished values at the first hint of danger.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Auraptor, you're so fucking stupid.
I'm in favor of killing terrorists.
But until you've proven someone actually is a terrorist, torturing them makes you just as evil as the terrorists you are supposedly against.
See, there's this thing, this concept, of "innocent until proven guilty"... oh.. nevermind. You're nothing but a chicken-shit traitor, giving up your country's most cherished values at the first hint of danger.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
Hear! Hear!
Sarge has it exactly right. See, once upon a time, there was this quaint little concept that we were ABOVE doing the kinds of things that terrorists would do, and that would put us above them. Saying that I'm against waterboarding and other forms of torture IS NOT THE SAME AS SAYING I'M FOR TERRORISM!!!
What part of that can't you get through your thick fucking skull, 'Rap?
Here's another thing: This nation is a nation of laws. Laws tend to be modeled on precedent. If you allow this, you are, in essence, saying to future prosecutors that it's okay to waterboard, say, a suspect in a bank robbery. Or a suspected drunk driver. Hey, if it was legal for THIS guy, then why not this OTHER guy?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Careful with that innocent till proven guilty stuff, Sarge...
Doesn't seem to be much welcome around here no more, given how much crap's been thrown in my direction for espousing it as of late.
-F
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I wonder when Amnesty International will put up an add showing us what real torture is like. My guess is never, because real torture is so disturbing and damaging that you could never get someone to participate in. The very idea they could make a “demonstration” video that airs on prime time sort undermine the whole idea of it being anything like the kind of activity that people usually associate with torture.
Waterboarding works because it makes the victim feel as if he is drowning, though he actually is not. One of Saddam’s favorites was throwing tied up and blind folded victims off 2 or 3 story buildings - I understand it makes the victim feel as if they are falling. Of course, on contact with the ground, they break several bones and realize they actually were falling. That’s real torture. It’s real. It’s not a staged stunt. It’s real. Waterboarding might be called torture, but it’s fake.
Now one can be against waterboarding, but one should be honest enough to put it in perspective.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Doesn't seem to be much welcome around here no more, given how much crap's been thrown in my direction for espousing it as of late.
Hmmm... I've been rather busy. Did I miss something?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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You and sarge think we're waterboarding cub scouts or something, when I give our intel guys far more credit than to randomly w.b. just anyone they have for the heck of it. They know more than anyone where it would prove effective, and have shown exactly that in its use.
You're the fucking stupid, thick skulled ass for faces. 
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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The US has only waterboarded 3 "people", and they were all high-ranking Al Qaida, including Sheik Kalid Mohammed...the mastermind of operations for 911. Geoerge Tenet, former CIA Director has publicly stated numerous times that waterboarding in these 3 cases definitely worked well, and we obtained valuable and usefull intelligence that ultimately saved innocents' lives. Anyone that has one ounce of sympathy for waterboarded Al Qaida is a naive, delusional fool. Shit...what'd Marcellus say in Pulp Fiction...."I'm gonna call me some pipe-hittin' ni**as to come over with a blowtorch and a pair of pliers..." I'll second that! Harsh interrogations with the goal of saving lives is vital and necessary sometimes.
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I don't know who we're waterboarding. Neither do you. That's at the heart of the issue. The question of how much we choose to trust those leading these efforts is a tricky one. It's one that political thinkers have wrestled with since the first 'leader' asked for out trust. In our country (USA) we decided to resolve the question with a set of strict rules and procedures designed to demand transparency and accountability from our leaders. These rules, written down in the Constitution, have served us well and allowed us to lead the way toward freer society and more just government.
But, the Constitution is, after all, "just a piece of paper". It's only as strong as our will to adhere to the values and principles it encodes. If, at the first sign of danger, we piss ourselves and cave in to panic ( which is, in fact, the whole point of terrorism ) and allow our fear to guide us, rather than our principles, the Constitution really doesn't matter much.
So buck up guys, and grow a pair. The terrorists will likely strike again, and I'd rather not indulge them by dismantling our nation on their cue.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
So buck up guys, and grow a pair. The terrorists will likely strike again, and I'd rather not indulge them by dismantling our nation on their cue.
I think it's you who needs to grow not only a pair, but just grow up. We're dealing potentially with dirty bombs, nukes, germ weapons, and outright poison. I am not fucking suicidal like some of you strict & rigid Constitution freaks. Shove your high platitudes up all your asses for all I care. You cannot have a country with high morality if you don't have a country anymore, or you have a shell of a country after a devastating event that kills millions. The USA has historically, under leaders of all political parties, taken extraordinary measures during times of national security threats...and since when does the US Constitution apply to foreign nationals sworn to kill all of us?
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Quote:So Jong, how'd you like you own son to go into the army & be trained how to waterboard a person? How'd you like to know your son can operate nearly as low as a real terrorist? He'd have some funny stories for the dinner table come the holidays, eh? "Yeah, they taught us that when you see blood being coughed up, you have to stop for a few hours- pass the mashed potatoes, please."
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
[
I think it's you who needs to grow not only a pair, but just grow up.
You KILL the bad guys if you have to, you don't swim in the same sewer of depravity that they do.
Chrisisall
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Quote:NO, WATERBOARDING DOESN'T "WORK", it only succeeds in making monsters of the participants, getting the suspect to say whatever he thinks will stop it (be it true or not), and dragging this country's morality lower and lower.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Waterboarding works because it makes the victim feel as if he is drowning, though he actually is not.
Bush is a traitor to the American Way.
EDIT: And I'm not saying that Bush is LIKE a traitor- He IS ONE...an actual traitor. He actively undermines our Constitution. He should be facing jurors, not press peeps.
Chrisisall
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Quote:And that's a laugh. Official stats, right? Like they're really gonna tell us everything.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The US has only waterboarded 3 "people"
Growing up sounds like a good idea, suddenly.
Zerotolleranceisall
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Quote:Thank you.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
These rules, written down in the Constitution, have served us well and allowed us to lead the way toward freer society and more just government.
The terrorists will likely strike again, and I'd rather not indulge them by dismantling our nation on their cue.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:And that's a laugh. Official stats, right? Like they're really gonna tell us everything.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The US has only waterboarded 3 "people"
Growing up sounds like a good idea, suddenly.
Zerotolleranceisall
Chris...since you don't trust anything or anyone except your own obnoxious smugness, why don't you simply go fuck yourself?...Dong ma?
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I think it's funny to watch little pissants moan in terror about some puffed up boogeyman less scary, and less LIKELY, than drowning in your own bathtub...
Seriously, I concur, grow a fucking set you bunch of pansies - any asshole tries to do for me better get it right the first time, cause his ass is mine like a prison bitch if he don't, and THAT, folks, is the American way.
Not hiding under the bed puling and whining like some half infant afraid of the dark.
Grow the fuck up.
-F
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FINN
Quote:This is singularly stupid, even from you. Do you know anything about Amnesty International? Apparently not, but that doesn't prevent you from shooting your mouth off like a fool.
I wonder when Amnesty International will put up an add showing us what real torture is like.
Well, for the truly ignorant (that's you, Finn) it's not as if AI is "against" waterboarding but "for" every other form of torture around the world. Look it up.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:I'll cop to obnoxious, but not smugness, Bush impounded it all for himself, there just isn't any more for the rest of us to use.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Chris...since you don't trust anything or anyone except your own obnoxious smugness
Quote:Because where my penis is situated, it doesn't allow for...well, you know...
why don't you simply go fuck yourself?...Dong ma?
My trust must be earned- I don't give it away. Bush has earned my resentment is all.
BottomlineChrisisall
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Quote:Spoken just like Joe Hallenbeck.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
any asshole tries to do for me better get it right the first time, cause his ass is mine like a prison bitch if he don't, and THAT, folks, is the American way.
LBfanisall
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Finn, Finn, Finn ...
"I wonder when Amnesty International will put up an add showing us what real torture is like."
I realize you know everything about torture, but you could stand to learn about it from the experts - the people who endured it at the hands of a brutal dictator. A Pol Pot survivor says this about waterboarding:
Half a world away, the divisive debate over whether waterboarding constitutes torture comes into sharp relief at the infamous S-21, Tuol Sleng Prison in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.
This is where the genocidal regime of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge imprisoned and brutalized its enemies from 1975 to 1979. I visited the once secret S-21, now a museum, with Van Nath, a former inmate. He remembers being brought here blindfolded and terrified: "I thought that was the end of my life," he told me. "In my room people kept dying, one or two every day."
Van Nath was kept in a room packed with 50 other inmates, shackled together and forced to lie down. "We could not sit. If we wanted to sit, we had to ask permission first. No talking, whispering or making noise," he told me.
Van Nath described how male prisoners were whipped raw, their fingernails were yanked out, they were hogtied to wooden bars. Prison guards mutilated women's genitals, ripped off their nipples with pliers. And worst of all, babies were ripped from their mothers' arms and slaughtered.
Take water torture, for instance. Van Nath remembers it as if it were yesterday. I gasped as I entered a room filled with his vivid depictions.
One of his paintings shows a prisoner blindfolded and hoisted onto a makeshift scaffold by two guards. He is then lowered head first into a massive barrel of water. Another shows a prisoner with cloth over his face, writhing as an interrogator pours water over his head.
Van Nath still remembers the accompanying screams: "It sounded like when we are really in pain, choking in water," he told me. "The sound was screaming, from the throat. I suppose they could not bear the torture. Whenever we heard the noises we were really shocked and scared. We thought one day they will do the same thing to us."
As he talked and showed me around, my mind raced to the debate in the United States over this same tactic used on its prisoners nearly 40 years later. I asked Van Nath whether he had heard this was once used on America's terrorist suspects. He nodded his head. "It's not right," he said.
But I pressed him: Is it torture? "Yes," he said quietly, "it is severe torture."
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So Finn, any more words of wisdom on what constitutes real torture ?
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Quote:I think people that witnessed the Towers coming down & the heads of peeps being sawed off have been 'TV-anethetized' and no longer consider anything that doesn't actually kill or remove body parts to be torture.
Originally posted by rue:
So Finn, any more words of wisdom on what constitutes real torture ?
I mean, unless they themselves experience it, I guess.
Chrisisall
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The Japanese waterboard, and it's a war crime.
We waterboard, and it's totally reasonable.
You fuckin' rightie wingnuts and your moral relativism make me sick.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:Hey- remember that Firefly ep where Mal & Wash were torturing that guy...oh wait...they weren't torturing, they were BEING tortured...that's right, torturin' ain't the job of Big Damn Heroes, it's a job for the likes of Niska & his crew...kinda make ya wonder what some folks even watched the show for, seein' as peeps that don't agree with employing it as part of their methods are un-grown up, have no cajones, and don't trust the oh-so-trustworthy government...Mal & crew must seem pretty much like a group of pansies to them folk...who'd watch a show about wussies tryin' to be noble as a grape when there's bad guys to be waterboarded?
Originally posted by Storymark:
We waterboard, and it's totally reasonable.
Huh?Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
The Japanese waterboard, and it's a war crime.
We waterboard, and it's totally reasonable.
You fuckin' rightie wingnuts and your moral relativism make me sick.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
THANK YOU!!
Waterboarding isn't "like" drowning; it's, like, DROWNING. They are actively drowning you when you're waterboarded. That they don't actually KILL you (most of the time, at least) doesn't mean you aren't actually drowning when they're doing it to you.
And, unlike the people who volunteer to be waterboarded to show how harmless it is, the people we've actually tortured DID NOT KNOW WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE EVER GOING TO STOP DROWNING THEM.
I'm against torture when THEY do it, and I'm against torture when WE do it. Color me reactionary, but I'd rather not become a terrorist in order to battle terrorists. That's something that fuckheads like AwwwCrapper and Finn will just never get their heads around.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:I'd colour you consistent.
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Color me reactionary
Chrisisall
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Works, does it ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunking
That's all waterboarding is, when you get right down to it, and the stones throw from the puritan scum who did this, and the christian scum who waterboard is not so great, which is why I view their religion and diety as monstrous and evil.
When you strip the bullshit off, the difference between christian zealots and muslim zealots is essentially nil - and were it not for the wisdom of a bunch of chary diests who knew what they were capable of and created a secular government, breaking the unholy alliance of church and state, we would likely be in no better shape.
Of course, there WAS a secular government in the middle east, run by a guy we propped up and enabled, but yanno, they had the misfortune to be sitting on a boatload of stuff we wanted, and got a little tired of being our bitch, and in our own blind pride, arrogance and zealotry, we walked right into a disaster of historically epic proportions - it's as if, instead of the trojan horse, we all went over to the trojan camp and got passed out drunk and woke up with second smiles.
Zealotry of any stripe leads to stupidity, be it religious, moral, or political.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:God, you’re dumb.
Originally posted by SignyM:
FINNQuote:This is singularly stupid, even from you. Do you know anything about Amnesty International? Apparently not, but that doesn't prevent you from shooting your mouth off like a fool.
I wonder when Amnesty International will put up an add showing us what real torture is like.
Well, for the truly ignorant (that's you, Finn) it's not as if AI is "against" waterboarding but "for" every other form of torture around the world. Look it up.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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God, you're evil.
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Now that we've gotten that out of the way - anything at all to say about the actual topic ?
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Quote:Once again fantasy and ideology displace perspective. Pol Pot, the guy responsible for the systematic murder and (real) torture of millions, is your excuse? This is the problem. You have no clue what you’re talking about because you have NO perspective at all. And even more, you don’t want one.
Originally posted by rue:
Finn, Finn, Finn ...
"I wonder when Amnesty International will put up an add showing us what real torture is like."
I realize you know everything about torture, but you could stand to learn about it from the experts - the people who endured it at the hands of a brutal dictator.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Care to post something that makes any kind of sense ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:And there we have it. It must be a very simplistic life you lead to ignore anything that might contribute to some degree of understanding beyond your ideology. It’s not enough to disagree with the use of waterboarding on the true merits of what waterboarding, you have to pretend it’s something its not and paint anyone who doesn’t except this one-sided view as stupid or evil. You don’t have any perspective and you don’t want any.
Originally posted by rue:
God, you're evil.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:When I was 15 I was swimming at the YMCA pool, and I used to take this big heavy rubber weight to the bottom or the pool and sit it in my lap so I could see how long I could hold my breath while remaining motionless. Once, on the high side of two minutes, I'd realized that I'd waited too long, and I had to bolt up 12 feet in an instant or take in some water. There were lifeguards, the worst that could happen would be one lungfull that they'd help me get rid of, I was really in no danger of losing my life, and as it turned out, I only got like a quarter-lungfull before I broke the surface. But I'll tell ya, that one moment of choking up water had me in a complete panic even though intellectually I knew all was well. Now the Idea of doing that over and over for hours...Finn, I mean this in the nicest way, but effue if you think that's not torture...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s real torture. It’s real. It’s not a staged stunt. It’s real. Waterboarding might be called torture, but it’s fake.
Chrisisall
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Finn: "God, you’re dumb."
To which I say: "It must be a very simplistic life you lead to ignore anything that might contribute to some degree of understanding beyond your ideology." ... You have to pretend waterboarding is something it's not and paint anyone who doesn’t accept this one-sided view as stupid. You don’t have any perspective and you don’t want any.
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Quote:I once chocked on a biscuit. I’m pretty sure that I was inches from death and it was probably luck that the wad of saggy biscuit dislodged before I lost consciousness. That was worse then waterboarding, because I might have actually died. I think it’s torture, but it’s on the low end of the spectrum. It’s staged. It’s fake. And if you think it's not staged, then a big effue to you. So where does that get us?
Originally posted by chrisisall:
When I was 15 I was swimming at the YMCA pool, and I used to take this big heavy rubber weight to the bottom or the pool and sit it in my lap so I could see how long I could hold my breath while remaining motionless. Once, on the high side of two minutes, I'd realized that I'd waited too long, and I had to bolt up 12 feet in an instant or take in some water. There were lifeguards, the worst that could happen would be one lungfull that they'd help me get rid of, I was really in no danger of losing my life, and as it turned out, I only got like a quarter-lungfull before I broke the surface. But I'll tell ya, that one moment of choking up water had me in a complete panic even though intellectually I knew all was well. Now the Idea of doing that over and over for hours...Finn, I mean this in the nicest way, but effue if you think that's not torture...
You know, eight year olds have better conversation skills then some of you.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn: "God, you’re dumb."
To which I say: "You know, eight year olds have better conversation skills then some of you."
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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So, I take it you don't admit the perspective of a Pol Pot torture survivor who says waterboarding is real torture ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:You go educate yourself on who and what Pol Pot was, and then we’ll talk about perspective.
Originally posted by rue:
So, I take it you don't admit the perspective of a Pol Pot torture survivor who says waterboarding is torture ?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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We're not talking about Pol Pot, we're talking about torture.
But I get it - it's bad when other people do it, but good when the US does the exact same thing.
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I think we all understand your point.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I think it's funny to watch little pissants moan in terror about some puffed up boogeyman less scary, and less LIKELY, than drowning in your own bathtub...
Seriously, I concur, grow a fucking set you bunch of pansies - any asshole tries to do for me better get it right the first time, cause his ass is mine like a prison bitch if he don't, and THAT, folks, is the American way.
Not hiding under the bed puling and whining like some half infant afraid of the dark.
Grow the fuck up.
-F
You're the one being all egocentric here. The fact that others might be concerned about what happens to others and not themselves doesn't even occur to you. We all know very well that for most of us the chance of being killed by a terrorist is close to zero, but that doesn't mean we should sit back and watch them kill thousands because you're so worried George Bush is going to waterboard you. I'm not concerned in the slightest that I will be the victim of a terrorist, but I do worry about innocent people all over the world that do have a higher probability of being killed. Waterboarding doesn't reach the threshold of torture for me and I agree with Finn that if you saw real torture it sure wouldn't look like the Amnesty Int. video.
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In its humane zeal to protect the world from terrorist killers the US kills by the hundreds of thousands. But it's different b/c the US uses bombs and the terrorists use ...... uh, ............
Yeah, that makes sense. 
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:I don't know if you're intentionally being obtuse, or you really don't understand what Pol Pot was, but the reason people have such a problem with Pol Pot is not because of the use of waterboarding. In fact, if it weren't for people like you trying to compare the US to the Khmer Rouge most people wouldn't know or care that waterboarding was used. That’s like saying one is angry about a burglar breaking in because he didn’t wipe his feet first.
Originally posted by rue:
We're not talking about Pol Pot, we're talking about torture.
But I get it - it's bad when other people do it, but good when the US does the exact same thing.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"In fact, if it weren't for people like you trying to compare the US to the Khmer Rouge most people wouldn't know or care that waterboarding was used."
That wasn't me - that was a Pol Pot Cambodian torture survivor who said waterboarding is severe torture. And who, of his own volition, and from his own experience, rendered it in his torture gallery - to memorialize what tortures were done.
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Maybe you're just having a hard time wrapping your head around that. Give it time.
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Quote:Ah ya big baby, I regularly choke near to unconsciousness from swallowin' stuff down the wrong pipe (I must have ADD), it just takes the proper ugchughhhf to dislodge something, and sometimes it takes a moment or two, that's NOTHING like having your lungs rudely introduced to H2O, not even close.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I once chocked on a biscuit. I’m pretty sure that I was inches from death and it was probably luck that the wad of saggy biscuit dislodged before I lost consciousness. That was worse then waterboarding, because I might have actually died.
Quote:Well, even on the effue scorecard
And if you think it's not staged, then a big effue to you. So where does that get us?
Quote:I smell a lot of rubber n' glue in the offing....
You know, eight year olds have better conversation skills then some of you.
Chrisisallchokedup
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Quote:Pol Pot was...only tangential to the subject we were discussing which was the torture itself.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don't know if you're intentionally being obtuse, or you really don't understand what Pol Pot was
By the way.
Suddenly, Moderator Chrisisall
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Quote:
You know, eight year olds have better conversation skills then some of you.
... and better writing skills "then" [sic] some of YOU, Finn. Do you really want to wade into that end of the pool? Before you start insinuating that you're intelligent and others who disagree are less so, you might want to run your dribble through a spell-check or seven.
I tend to respond a bit more favorably to being called dumb by someone who can actually spell it, or at least look it up!
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
...if it weren't for people like you trying to compare the US to the Khmer Rouge most people wouldn't know or care that waterboarding was used.
So can we start referring to the Bush Regime as the "Khmer Rove"? :)
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:*STRANGE METAPHOR GIVEN THE SUBJECT ALERT*
Originally posted by Kwicko:
... and better writing skills "then" [sic] some of YOU, Finn. Do you really want to wade into that end of the pool?
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Hummm, Can't we just decide not to do stuff like this as a matter of principle? I mean we're smart, we're tech savvy and we're not religious nutballs (well, most of us.) I'm pretty sure we could come up with far more effective techniques than this?
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Have we abandoned sodium pentath...TRUTH SERUM?
Ask me a question that normally I would lie to Chrisisall
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Well truth serum doesn't work but there are technologies that can determine if you are lying by measuring the activity and delay in certain parts of the brain. Put simply it takes more effort to lie, even for people trained to be deceptive, and we are getting close to being able to determine that in real time.
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Quote:That’s not what waterboarding is either.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Ah ya big baby, I regularly choke near to unconsciousness from swallowin' stuff down the wrong pipe (I must have ADD), it just takes the proper ugchughhhf to dislodge something, and sometimes it takes a moment or two, that's NOTHING like having your lungs rudely introduced to H2O, not even close.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I once chocked on a biscuit. I’m pretty sure that I was inches from death and it was probably luck that the wad of saggy biscuit dislodged before I lost consciousness. That was worse then waterboarding, because I might have actually died.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Fletch, you're talkin' about tossing the training manuals on interrogation here...no one likes to be put out of a job...
Originally posted by Fletch2:
there are technologies that can determine if you are lying by measuring the activity and delay in certain parts of the brain.
CIA
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Quote:Sorry, I understood it to be drowning someone, but not really- I thought water entered the lungs, do I understand incorrectly?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s not what waterboarding is either.
Chrisisall
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From Wiki:
Quote:Sounds like water's in the lungs to me....
Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent.[2] In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex.[3] Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.[5]
Badisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:And there we have it. It must be a very simplistic life you lead to ignore anything that might contribute to some degree of understanding beyond your ideology. It’s not enough to disagree with the use of waterboarding on the true merits of what waterboarding, you have to pretend it’s something its not and paint anyone who doesn’t except this one-sided view as stupid or evil. You don’t have any perspective and you don’t want any.
Originally posted by rue:
God, you're evil.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
You keep ignoring that our government considered it torture when they were convicting the Japanese for it.
I guess it's just not torture when we do it.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:My god Finn, have you lost your brain somewhere? Yeah, I think we all know who Pol Pot was, and the Khmer Rouge, and knowing all that only makes Rue's point stronger because even the man who experienced Pol Pot's torture says that waterboarding is torture. And I would say THAT guy has a well-founded perspective... which is a helluva more than I can say for you!
So, I take it you don't admit the perspective of a Pol Pot torture survivor who says waterboarding is torture ?- Rue
You go educate yourself on who and what Pol Pot was, and then we’ll talk about perspective- Finn
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:My god Finn, have you lost your brain somewhere? Yeah, I think we all know who Pol Pot was, and the Khmer Rouge, and knowing all that only makes Rue's point stronger because even the man who experienced Pol Pot's torture says that waterboarding is torture. And I would say THAT guy has a well-founded perspective... which is a helluva more than I can say for you!
So, I take it you don't admit the perspective of a Pol Pot torture survivor who says waterboarding is torture ?- Rue
You go educate yourself on who and what Pol Pot was, and then we’ll talk about perspective- Finn
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Let's party like it's 1929.
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter what someone who was actually there experienced. If you disagree with Bush or Finn, you clearly have no perspective. Period. End of discussion.
That man clearly has no perspective on the issue, because he doesn't know what it takes to battle islamo-facists, the way Finn has - because he's been out there, in the trenches, fighting them himself. With his keyboard.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
In its humane zeal to protect the world from terrorist killers the US kills by the hundreds of thousands. But it's different b/c the US uses bombs and the terrorists use ...... uh, ............
Yeah, that makes sense.
Both those killed by terrorist bombs and those killed accidentally by US bombs are the victims of the terrorists. If we did nothing thousands more would die in the future because we failed to act now. I suppose your solution is for us to lay down arms and sing kumbaya with the terrorists. Our failure to follow through in Vietnam is one of the reasons the Khmer Rouge were free to kill millions. But of course you think the the US and the Khmer Rouge are morally equivalent, so I can see how seeing the distinction between collateral damage and intentional killing of innocents would escape you.
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Quote:Because he made me! He started it!
Both those killed by terrorist bombs and those killed accidentally by US bombs are the victims of the terrorists
Typical playground response. Are you saying that the only way to fight terrorism is to become terrorists? That there is no other effective way of dealing with an ideology other than killing a lot of people, including innocent bystanders? I thought we were wiser than that, smarter than that. I guess not. Or at least you're not.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:And we have, but there is no such thing as a perfect interrogation technique and what works on some will not work on others and visa versa. Although there is a line I’m not willing to cross, methods of interrogation that might save lives should not be simply tossed out without consideration. If a person commits a crime, maybe he is tortured by the presence of a stable government with a legal system and a law enforcement force. And although there are people who seem to believe that we should get rid of government for this reason or something similar to it, most people would be in favor of this kind of torture. However, the anti-torture point of view often seems to take pretty extreme views. I remember on this board discussion in which people tried to argue that sleep deprivation was torture or tearing up a Koran was torture. The point being that torture is not some big black obelisk with distinct boundaries. There is a continuum, and the question is not about principle, because my guess is that everyone would be opposed to torture at some level - the question is where is the line drawn. Although people like rue and signym like to frame it as if the delineation is so clear that if you don’t agree with them you’re an idiot or evil, the truth is that it has been nearly impossible to draw that line. I’m not willing to simply eliminate from the military arsenal a tool that could be of some use in certain extreme circumstances if that tool proves to save lives. That’s the principle we should be keeping our eye on - how effectively are we protecting the people and how many lives are we saving, because when it finally comes right down to it, there are no good and bad tactics, only tactics that best serve to protect the people and save lives and those that don't or those that do the opposite.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Hummm, Can't we just decide not to do stuff like this as a matter of principle? I mean we're smart, we're tech savvy and we're not religious nutballs (well, most of us.) I'm pretty sure we could come up with far more effective techniques than this?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I guess it depends a lot on who’s doing it. Certainly you can poor water down someone’s lungs as a form of torture, which is something that I would be against, but that’s not what waterboarding is or supposed to be. Waterboarding simulates drowning, it’s not supposed to cause it.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Sorry, I understood it to be drowning someone, but not really- I thought water entered the lungs, do I understand incorrectly?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Storymark wrote:
Friday, May 02, 2008 07:09
You fuckin' rightie wingnuts and your moral relativism make me sick.
Your being sick is a tiny price to pay for the safety of this country.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Finn, waterboarding IS torture. It is partial drowning. Saying that waterboarding is not torture because the person didn't drown is like saying that electric shock is not torture because the victim wasn't electrocuted.
Who says that it's torture? OUR GOVERNMENT DID when we prosecuted the Japanese for it. People who've experienced it say it is. International conventions say so. The Catholic Church says so. Even John McCain, who knows something about torture, said it's torture. And here is a detailed description from a JAG officer:
Quote:It was used in the Spanish Inqusition and by Pol Pot. Now, I know this is difficult for you to accept... that WE would, in fact, torture people to get information. But facts are facts. We did, and we do.
That term is used to describe several interrogation techniques. The victim may be immersed in water, have water forced into the nose and mouth, or have water poured onto material placed over the face so that the liquid is inhaled or swallowed. The media usually characterize the practice as "simulated drowning." That's incorrect. To be effective, waterboarding is real drowning that simulates death. That is, the victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut. The main difference is that the drowning process is halted....
The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it. ... After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.
Either suck it up and say "Tough times call for even tougher measures" or say we should stop torturing people, but stop hiding your head up your butt because you can't abide uncomfortable facts.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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It was a Pol Pot Cambodian torture survivor who said waterboarding is severe torture. And who, of his own volition, and from his own experience, rendered it in his torture gallery - to memorialize what tortures were done.
The US has done exactly the same thing to its prisoners.
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Maybe you're just having a hard time wrapping your head around that. Give it time.
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Quote:You know, I don't agree with Rap on practically anything. But I'll have to say this for him, he is at least honest about what he really stands for.
Either suck it up and say "Tough times call for even tougher measures" or say we should stop torturing people
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You keep ignoring that our government considered it torture when they were convicting the Japanese for it.
I guess it's just not torture when we do it.
Do you study history? I mean, really study it? Hypocrisy has always been at least as big a part of traditional American government as popular elections. And you know what? It doesn't matter. Centuries of saying one thing, then doing the other has gotten us where we are today, the wealthiest, most powerful nation in the world.
Have no illusions, the United States has never been the pure, completely moral society that we would like to believe, and it never will be, because acting solely on the vaguely judeo-christian ethical system most Americans subscribe to is not how nations get ahead. When you base national policy on unrealistic ideals, you inevitably fail. Just look at the old Communist governments. The ones that struggled to stay true to Marx's vision failed, because it was a flawed vision. The ones that sold out, did the pragmatic thing and instituted reform, and relaxed their rigid restrictions, are still around, and, if China and North Korea are any indication, are still going strong. Look at all these petty revolutions that happen around the world every year. Look at what happens when the victors try to apply their vision of a utopian society to reality. Ever wonder why there are so many failed states out there?
Realistically, torture of any sort is iffy. Too little, and it can be resisted, too much and the subject will spout any lie to relieve the pain. What's more effective is the fear of torture. What we should be doing is telling the world that we ruthlessly torture our prisoners, regardless of whether we actually do. When this "War on Terror" began, enemy operatives were blatantly overconfident about being captured, because they "knew" that Americans were too soft to use really harsh measures on them. Tell them they're wrong. Better yet, show them they're wrong. Watch how much easier it becomes to break them without resorting to torture.
Just be realistic. Morality is irrelevant to the dead. If a greater end is achieved, the means are justified.
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"O' course, ya couldn't buy an invite with a diamond the size of a testicle, but luckily I got my hands on a couple." -Badger
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So, we've always been assholes, so why stop?
At least you'll admit to the hypocricy. I can give that a level of respect, even if I don't agree that makes it okay.
But it's better than Finn is capable of, he who keeps ignoring the points that don't support him.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:One of these days, it might occur to you that you won’t look half a stupid as you do right now if you read what I say and respond to that, instead of responding to some imagined argument.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Either suck it up and say "Tough times call for even tougher measures" or say we should stop torturing people, but stop hiding your head up your butt because you can't abide uncomfortable facts.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:You know, I don't agree with Rap on practically anything. But I'll have to say this for him, he is at least honest about what he really stands for.
Either suck it up and say "Tough times call for even tougher measures" or say we should stop torturing people
While I appreciate the compliment, sort of, I have to confess.... I never typed those words for which you credit me. But they do come close enough to making my point, that there are few on this board who recognize the real and actual threat that these Islamo-Jihadist pose and how committed they are to forcing everyone to accept their brand of Islam, or die.
These are very, VERY evil people, and thankfully there are some still left who are willing to do what it takes to keep them at bay.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I, for one, would like to thank American's for their anti-terrorism stance.
For instance if Americans hadn't been financing the IRA for 30 years, us Brits wouldn't have a clue how to deal with Terrorists.
Playing the long game there America, good thinking, I like it.
"i guess that makes me a troll.." AntiMason
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I, for one, would like to thank American's for their anti-terrorism stance.
For instance if Americans hadn't been financing the IRA for 30 years, us Brits wouldn't have a clue how to deal with Terrorists.
Playing the long game there America, good thinking, I like it.
That wasn't " Americans" as a whole, Citizen, but Irish - Americans who came here, made $$ and sent some of it back. You make is sound as if there was wide spread, whole sale support for the Irish. I'd say 97% of Americans had no clue what was going on w/ respect to the funding of the IRA or why Catholics and Protestants couldn't get along over there.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How'd you like to know your son can operate nearly as low as a real terrorist? He'd have some funny stories for the dinner table come the holidays, eh? "Yeah, they taught us that when you see blood being coughed up, you have to stop for a few hours- pass the mashed potatoes, please."
You KILL the bad guys if you have to, you don't swim in the same sewer of depravity that they do.
That's a bunch of bull, and your moral equivalency of the issue puts you in the Rev. Wright category. If some terrorists or Al Qaida was holding hostage someone I loved, or cared about, or liked, or just knew I'd do anything to get them back if we had one of their's to question. And the same goes true if there was information about a threat against my country. Christ, pouring some water on these animals is actually a favor for them in terms of their personal hygiene.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How'd you like to know your son can operate nearly as low as a real terrorist? He'd have some funny stories for the dinner table come the holidays, eh? "Yeah, they taught us that when you see blood being coughed up, you have to stop for a few hours- pass the mashed potatoes, please."
You KILL the bad guys if you have to, you don't swim in the same sewer of depravity that they do.
That's a bunch of bull, and your moral equivalency of the issue puts you in the Rev. Wright category. If some terrorists or Al Qaida was holding hostage someone I loved, or cared about, or liked, or just knew I'd do anything to get them back if we had one of their's to question. And the same goes true if there was information about a threat against my country. Christ, pouring some water on these animals is actually a favor for them in terms of their personal hygiene.
It's easy to be outraged by the use of torture by the evil monsters in the government, but if you put it on a personal level like Riverlove does it gets easier to see how it might be required in some situations. If the Kirkules family and the Chrisisall family were being held by terrorists and were going to be beheaded in one hour, I would have no problem turning over a terrorist captive to Chrisisall for interrogation. He would do what is required to save his family and so would the rest of you, you just see a big difference between it being done by an individual and it done by the government. Water boarding would be the least of the terrorist's worries if they were holding your family and you were in charge.
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RAP
Quote:Which brings me back to... Oh, really?
there are few on this board who recognize the real and actual threat that these Islamo-Jihadist pose
Think back to May 2001 and be honest: Were you expecting 9-11? Were you expecting a mjaor terrorist attack on American soil? 'Cause if not you were not recognizing the threat of Islamic extremists.
Say, were you for the Carter Admin arming the Taliban with shoulder-fired missiles? At the time, we were all told they were mujahideen which meant- in the American propagandist lexicon- freedom fighters.
Did you recognize the danger in that? I'm gonna make a prior claim to your so-called knowledge, Rap. You obviously feel you're one of the few who "really" knows what's going on. But you mistake panic for understanding, and you also mistake panic for effectiveness. But based on your posts, I peg you as a confused ignorant tool who hasn't a frigging clue about what's going on because you won't look past your comfort zone and THINK about .... well, pretty much anything. So you continue as perhaps the most gullible person on the board.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:Ah yes, the Jack Bauer scenario. It's so disheartening sometimes to see how many people confuse a frigging TV show with real life!
It's easy to be outraged by the use of torture by the evil monsters in the government, but if you put it on a personal level like Riverlove does it gets easier to see how it might be required in some situations. If the Kirkules family and the Chrisisall family were being held by terrorists and were going to be beheaded in one hour...
If that were the case then yes, real agents would prolly use torture. But there's no reason to make it "legal" across the board because then it would be applied to all kinds of situations that- amazingly
- don't look anything like 24. Some of you are strict "law and order' types. You believe that law and punishment deters crime, and if laws are removed crime will flourish. If that's the case, then by your own logic making torture "legal" simply allows torture when it's not warranted.
But perhaps the Jack Bauer scenario comes up on very rare occasion: Somebody knows something important and in order to prevent an occurrence you have to get the information out of them right away. At that point, use of torture should be authorized by the President - and let the chips fall where they may. As President of the USA, Commander in Chief, and ultimate world diplomat, the responsibility for breaking the Geneva Convention (which we signed and ratified, making it "the law of our land") should fall on his shoulders.
On a side-note, in the case of violent civilian criminals who generally aren't calculating their actions, laws and punishment aren't a good deterrent. Civilian violent crime is mostly unpremeditated, and consequences aren't part of the equation. OTOH laws on torture are one of the instances where laws WOULD work, because the people who apply torture... people for whom this is "a job"... will think about what happens afterwards.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Ah yes, the Jack Bauer scenario. It's so disheartening sometimes to see how many people confuse a frigging TV show with real life!
It seems to me that the "Jack Bauer scenario" is exactly what we are talking about here. You act as if the use of torture by our government is widespread. The Feds have used waterboarding three times while Amnesty Int. has used it once. This hardly amounts to the indiscriminate use of torture you suggest. When terrorists with info of a future attack are in custody it's always a "Jack Bauer scenario" for someones family, just not yours, because the odds are on your side.
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FINN
Quote:I read what you write Finn, and I also understand what you mean- prolly better than YOU understand yourself. So I'm gonna engage in a little psychoanalysis here, and if doesn't ring true to you I'm sure it will to people who're familiar with your posts.
One of these days, it might occur to you that you won’t look half a stupid as you do right now if you read what I say and respond to that, instead of responding to some imagined argument.
It's very important that you see yourself as a moral person. You're not a cynic. Your believe wholeheartedly in the sanctity of human life, freedom, democracy, your way of life. And these beliefs are shining beacons on a white hill.
But then it comes to real life. Actions are taken in support of some beliefs which contravene others. You believe in the sanctity of human life and you're against abortion. But what about collateral damage? You excuse that as "accidental" because we didn't intend to kill (hundreds of thousands to millions of) innocent bystanders. The way you justify very messy "means"- torture, murder, the imposition of tyranny- is by saying: We didn't mean to. It was for a greater good. It's not torture. Not as many people were killed as you think and besides, they weren't "really" innocent. It was technically legal. Worse would have happened otherwise. It's not about oil/ copper/ shipping/ bananas- it's about freedom. You will find a way to justify ANY means, including thermonuclear war, using some sort of "greater good" theory. Your righteousness is dangerous, because if anyone is a practitioner of moral relativism, it's you.
I've learned quite a few things from this board. I learned one huge lesson by comparing your ideology to real life, and what I've figure out is that bad means most often create bad ends: blowback. Taking over Iran via the Shah created Khomeini. Arming the Taliban and supporting Hussein created monsters. Turning South and Central America into our economic colonies created poverty, continuous revolutions, and an immigration problem that can't be stopped. Granting China MFN status when they were using prison (slave) labor drained away our jobs.
We should have walked our talk instead of aiming for World Domination. Sure, we wouldn't have become the world Imperial Power but we'd have a helluva higher standard of living and I think we'd be a lot more secure than we are now.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
RAPQuote:Which brings me back to... Oh, really?
there are few on this board who recognize the real and actual threat that these Islamo-Jihadist pose
Think back to May 2001 and be honest: Were you expecting 9-11? Were you expecting a mjaor terrorist attack on American soil? 'Cause if not you were not recognizing the threat of Islamic extremists.
Say, were you for the Carter Admin arming the Taliban with shoulder-fired missiles? At the time, we were all told they were mujahideen which meant- in the American propagandist lexicon- freedom fighters.
I'm gonna make a prior claim to your so-called knowledge, Rap. You obviously feel you're one of the few who "really" knows what's going on. But you mistake panic for understanding, and you also mistake panic for effectiveness. But based on your posts, I peg you as a confused ignorant tool who hasn't a frigging clue about what's going on because you won't look past your comfort zone and THINK about .... well, pretty much anything. So you continue as perhaps the most gullible person on the board.
How many shoulder rocket attacks have we had here in the US the past 28 yrs ? Oh, none? Ok. You clearly forget the REASON why we helped the actual freedom fighters in Afghanistan, don't you ? The Soviet Union's quest for a warm water port, a well as being one step closer to the Mid East oil fields.
So, ignoring your inane comments about " panic " and " the most gullible " , I'll simply write you off as just another one of those clueless myrmidons who thinks every culture is equally nice, until provoked. And then there's nothing under the sun they can do wrong to avenge what ever supposed wrong has fallen upon them. You continue to come up w/ what ever excuse you want to make for the Islamo-fascist. Whether it's that we created them, ( we didn't ) or that if only we'd leave Iraq, they'd be nice to us ( an absurd notion ) or what ever else your vapid little mind can come up w/, so long as you don't have to face the facts.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Did you read my post? I said (and gosh, I apologize for repeating myself for people who can't read, but it appears necessary:
It seems to me that the "Jack Bauer scenario" is exactly what we are talking about here. You act as if the use of torture by our government is widespread. The Feds have used waterboarding three times while Amnesty Int. has used it once. This hardly amounts to the indiscriminate use of torture you suggest. When terrorists with info of a future attack are in custody it's always a "Jack Bauer scenario" for someones family, just not yours, because the odds are on your side.
Quote:That doesn't mean re-defining torture as non-torture, or making torture legal. It means breaking the law and taking the consequences. What the Bush Administration wanted was to have their cake and eat it too.
[But perhaps the Jack Bauer scenario comes up on very rare occasion: Somebody knows something important and in order to prevent an occurrence you have to get the information out of them right away. At that point, use of torture should be authorized by the President - and let the chips fall where they may. As President of the USA, Commander in Chief, and ultimate world diplomat, the responsibility for breaking the Geneva Convention (which we signed and ratified, making it "the law of our land") should fall on his shoulders.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:So, what did we have against the Soviets in Afghanistan? They built roads and hospitals and airports. They built schools, and educated women to the point where half of the doctors were women. Meanwhile, the so-called "freedom fighters" included Osama bin Laden and similar religious fanatics whose main ambition- one that we helped them realize- was to turn Afghanistan into a concentration camp for women, in which millions of people starved. So now we have a failed state controlled by warlords and religious fanatics with opium as its major export.
You clearly forget the REASON why we helped the actual freedom fighters in Afghanistan, don't you
Great.
Just what we wanted.
And what interest did we have in Afghanistan anyway? Sometimes you have to judge who your greater enemy is. Now, IMHO ANY government that advances the causes of stability, prosperity, and human rights within its borders, and which does not have imperial designs on its neighbors, is a plus. And I use that as a rule of thumb to define our real national interest, and we should be promoting that instead of stumbling from one crisis du jour to another. We should have been HELPING the Soviet Union bring Afghanistan into the modern world, instead of dragging it back into the stone age.
Quote:So WTF do we care if they had a warm-water port or not? It's not as if they're taking one of ours, is it? I mean, we'd still have plenty of our own, wouldn't we? And what the hell would they want with the Mideast oil fields? They've got plenty of their own.
The Soviet Union's quest for a warm water port, a well as being one step closer to the Mid East oil fields.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
...there are few on this board who recognize the real and actual threat that these Islamo-Jihadist pose and how committed they are to forcing everyone to accept their brand of Islam, or die.
These are very, VERY evil people, and thankfully there are some still left who are willing to do what it takes to keep them at bay.
The questions of their vicious intent, and the actual threat they pose, are very different concerns. You can't seem to separate the two, but they're aren't remotely the same thing. The fact of the matter is, they are no significant threat to our nation - except in their ability to inspire fear and panic. And even then, the fear and panic aren't a significant danger to our national survival, unless people use it as an excuse to undermine our national values. Which is what YOU are doing.
The terrorists are very dangerous as a criminal threat, but they aren't an army and have no real ability to challenge our existence as a sovereign nation.
Regardless, this is all a smokescreen. The real issue isn't whether serious action should be taken to counter the terrorist's efforts. Despite your claims, we all agree on that. The issue is that you and others are eager to toss aside fundamental freedoms and protection in favor of fascist, police-state tactics. What you can't seem to understand is that doing that actually caters to the terrorists' goals, and maximizes the effect of their fleeting attacks.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:This is how Signym rationalizes her position. On one hand she attacks people who even suggest that such measures should ever be used, then on another she confesses that there are situations in which they should be used. The difference is that Signym wants the law to be broken. It makes her feel more comfortable if we torture people against the law and the President is the one who takes sole responsibility for it. That way she can have her cake and eat it too. She supports the use of torture, while not having to take responsibility for that position. Very brave of you signym.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Ah yes, the Jack Bauer scenario. It's so disheartening sometimes to see how many people confuse a frigging TV show with real life!
It's easy to be outraged by the use of torture by the evil monsters in the government, but if you put it on a personal level like Riverlove does it gets easier to see how it might be required in some situations. If the Kirkules family and the Chrisisall family were being held by terrorists and were going to be beheaded in one hour...
If that were the case then yes, real agents would prolly use torture. But there's no reason to make it "legal" across the board because then it would be applied to all kinds of situations that- amazingly
Some of you are strict "law and order' types. You believe that law and punishment deters crime, and if laws are removed crime will flourish. If that's the case, then by your own logic making torture "legal" simply allows torture when it's not warranted.
But perhaps the Jack Bauer scenario comes up on very rare occasion: Somebody knows something important and in order to prevent an occurrence you have to get the information out of them right away. At that point, use of torture should be authorized by the President - and let the chips fall where they may. As President of the USA, Commander in Chief, and ultimate world diplomat, the responsibility for breaking the Geneva Convention (which we signed and ratified, making it "the law of our land") should fall on his shoulders.
On a side-note, in the case of violent civilian criminals who generally aren't calculating their actions, laws and punishment aren't a good deterrent. Civilian violent crime is mostly unpremeditated, and consequences aren't part of the equation. OTOH laws on torture are one of the instances where laws WOULD work, because the people who apply torture... people for whom this is "a job"... will think about what happens afterwards.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:So now that we all know that Signym supports the use of torture, would you like to extend this accusation of evilness to Signym, or change your point of view too?
Originally posted by rue:
God, you're evil.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"That doesn't mean re-defining torture as non-torture, or making torture legal. It means breaking the law and taking the consequences. What the Bush Administration wanted was to have their cake and eat it too."
I thought SignyM's position was clear - torture is against the law and should always be against the law. And a person who takes it uopn themself to break the law - even a president - has to face the consequences - in this case being put on trial for war crimes.
Do you have a problem with that ?
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And, dude, it doesn't add up to support.
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Quote:Yes, it is quite clear. Signym has no problem leaving the President out to dry for acting on what she claims to support. It’s intellectually dishonest.
Originally posted by rue:
"That doesn't mean re-defining torture as non-torture, or making torture legal. It means breaking the law and taking the consequences. What the Bush Administration wanted was to have their cake and eat it too."
I thought SignyM's position was clear - torture is against the law and should always be against the law. And a person who takes it uopn themself to break the law - even a president - has to face the consequences - in this case being put on trial for war crimes.
So I ask you again, Signym supports the use of torture by her own admission. Is Signym evil?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"At that point, use of torture should be authorized by the President - and let the chips fall where they may."
AH - I suspect the use of the word 'should' is confusing to you. In the context of the entire argument (context is something I know you have trouble with) it means is this - IF you support the use of torture it needs to be kept consequential for the person who orders it -ie the president.
Is that better ?
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And no, SignyM does NOT support the use of torture - as do you; and is not evil - as you ...
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Quote:So basically neither of you have the intellectual fortitude to face this very serious issue. Perhaps you both need to do some research and soul searching. In the mean time, I think people who have taken the time to honestly evaluate the difficult issues to come to an opinion, like Auraptor, Kirkuls and myself would appreciate it if you would keep your hate for those you disagree with to yourself, at least until you can come to some sort of honest grasp of the issue.
Originally posted by rue:
"At that point, use of torture should be authorized by the President - and let the chips fall where they may."
AH - I suspect the use of the word 'should' is confusing to you. In the context of the entire argument (context is something I know you have trouble with) it means is this - IF you support the use of torture it needs to be kept consequential for the person who orders it -ie the president.
Is that better ?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"neither of you have the intellectual fortitude to face this very serious issue"
So basically, you're so lazy, violent, stupid, or dishonest you say it's either torture, or nothing.
Got it.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:I’ve never said that, nor could any honest person find that in anything I have said. Which once again, demonstrates my point. Until you can grasp the issue with some degree of honesty, please keep this hatred to yourself.
Originally posted by rue:
"neither of you have the intellectual fortitude to face this very serious issue"
So basically, you're so lazy, violent, stupid, or dishonest you say it's either torture, or nothing.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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You never asked what I, or SignyM, would do rather than torture. You never considered how torture might be riskier for the country as a general concept in a democracy and as a specific practice which garners enemies.
For you, it's either torture, or nothing.
Got it. Again.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:? Riverlove is unclear.
Originally posted by Kirkules:
That's a bunch of bull, and your moral equivalency of the issue puts you in the Rev. Wright category.
Quote:If I were convinced he knew info that would keep our families alive, I'd break whatever bone in his body I needed to to get it, and later, I'd expect to be tried for my actions, which I'd hope would be seen as justifiable under the circumstances...see, cause torturing peeps should be AGAINST THE LAW. Like I would speed to the hospital if my Wife was in labour, and hope a police officer wouldn't give me a ticket once he knew why I did it. Sometimes you break the law for a justifiable reason, but that doesn't mean you're not breaking the law. And for a government to cover their collective asses by making something magically legal for them to do that other governments and regular citizens would be condemned, invaded or imprisoned for is just sheer hypocrisy.
If the Kirkules family and the Chrisisall family were being held by terrorists and were going to be beheaded in one hour, I would have no problem turning over a terrorist captive to Chrisisall for interrogation.
EDIT: but please remember that the above example Kirkules posed is a TV-like one, and in all probability would NEVER HAPPEN.
OK? Are we real here?
Chrisisall
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Quote:Actually, I’ve considered all those things. You however, have no interest in what I consider or what I think. You labeled me “evil” and Sigym labeled me an “idiot” before either of you had any idea what I think, simply because it is easier to despise someone instead of dealing with this complex issue yourself.
Originally posted by rue:
You never asked what I, or SignyM, would do rather than torture. You never considered how torture might be riskier for the country as a general concept in a democracy and as a specific practice which garners enemies.
For you, it's either torture, or nothing.
Got it. Again.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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You say you've thought about all of it. Then you know that torture doesn't work, harms the US politically across the globe, decreases security, diminishes constitutional protections and democracy, and is never going to add up on a balance sheet (except in the fevered imaginations of "24" writers) - and you endorse it anyway.
So, what are my choices to describe you ? You tell me.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:To be fair Finn, you are sometimes almost cryptically vague in your responses...I know that I personally have to read past the actual words you sometimes type here to recognize that not only are you not "evil", your beliefs are actually more in line with those of James Kirk than Khan Noonian Singh...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You however, have no interest in what I consider or what I think.
Just an observationisall
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Quote:All absolutely true...but cut us some slack Rue, remember that most of us here were raised by 60's, 70's, & 80's TV, not actual hands-on parents...it's no wonder that our perceptions of reality are, shall we say, infected with a propensity towards drama.
Originally posted by rue:
torture doesn't work, harms the US politically across the globe, decreases security, diminishes constitutional protections and democracy, and is never going to add up on a balance sheet (except in the fevered imaginations of "24" writers)
Dirty Harry Chrisisall
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What I want is for our officers to understand how important our laws are...how important our constitution is, how above all those things are to be upheld by them...
so that, if it came down to it and they felt a moral imperitive to do something against our laws for the sake of this country's immediate safety, they would not make the decision based on whether or not they could get into trouble. They would make the decision based on an unquibbleable neccesity,
and that yet, they would be so beholden to our country's ideals that they would understand why laws against such actions must be in existence and must be enforced. They shouldn't be going so far out of their way trying to cover their own asses at the expense of our country's core values. They shouldn't be prying the door wide open for easy abuse for anybody who wishes to use the cover of patriotism for something more nefarious. Frankly, I can't understand why any of you would want that.
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Quote:Zactly.
Originally posted by Righteous9:
They shouldn't be prying the door wide open for easy abuse for anybody who wishes to use the cover of patriotism for something more nefarious.
Succinct Chrisisall
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