Real World Event Discussions
Waterboarding- the real deal
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, May 9, 2008 01:12
VIEWED: 11112
PAGE 8 of 23
Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:00 AM
Quote:One of these days, it might occur to you that you won’t look half a stupid as you do right now if you read what I say and respond to that, instead of responding to some imagined argument.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Either suck it up and say "Tough times call for even tougher measures" or say we should stop torturing people, but stop hiding your head up your butt because you can't abide uncomfortable facts.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 7:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:You know, I don't agree with Rap on practically anything. But I'll have to say this for him, he is at least honest about what he really stands for.
Either suck it up and say "Tough times call for even tougher measures" or say we should stop torturing people
While I appreciate the compliment, sort of, I have to confess.... I never typed those words for which you credit me. But they do come close enough to making my point, that there are few on this board who recognize the real and actual threat that these Islamo-Jihadist pose and how committed they are to forcing everyone to accept their brand of Islam, or die.
These are very, VERY evil people, and thankfully there are some still left who are willing to do what it takes to keep them at bay.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 8:24 AM
I, for one, would like to thank American's for their anti-terrorism stance.
For instance if Americans hadn't been financing the IRA for 30 years, us Brits wouldn't have a clue how to deal with Terrorists.
Playing the long game there America, good thinking, I like it.
"i guess that makes me a troll.." AntiMason
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I, for one, would like to thank American's for their anti-terrorism stance.
For instance if Americans hadn't been financing the IRA for 30 years, us Brits wouldn't have a clue how to deal with Terrorists.
Playing the long game there America, good thinking, I like it.
That wasn't " Americans" as a whole, Citizen, but Irish - Americans who came here, made $$ and sent some of it back. You make is sound as if there was wide spread, whole sale support for the Irish. I'd say 97% of Americans had no clue what was going on w/ respect to the funding of the IRA or why Catholics and Protestants couldn't get along over there.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How'd you like to know your son can operate nearly as low as a real terrorist? He'd have some funny stories for the dinner table come the holidays, eh? "Yeah, they taught us that when you see blood being coughed up, you have to stop for a few hours- pass the mashed potatoes, please."
You KILL the bad guys if you have to, you don't swim in the same sewer of depravity that they do.
That's a bunch of bull, and your moral equivalency of the issue puts you in the Rev. Wright category. If some terrorists or Al Qaida was holding hostage someone I loved, or cared about, or liked, or just knew I'd do anything to get them back if we had one of their's to question. And the same goes true if there was information about a threat against my country. Christ, pouring some water on these animals is actually a favor for them in terms of their personal hygiene.
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
How'd you like to know your son can operate nearly as low as a real terrorist? He'd have some funny stories for the dinner table come the holidays, eh? "Yeah, they taught us that when you see blood being coughed up, you have to stop for a few hours- pass the mashed potatoes, please."
You KILL the bad guys if you have to, you don't swim in the same sewer of depravity that they do.
That's a bunch of bull, and your moral equivalency of the issue puts you in the Rev. Wright category. If some terrorists or Al Qaida was holding hostage someone I loved, or cared about, or liked, or just knew I'd do anything to get them back if we had one of their's to question. And the same goes true if there was information about a threat against my country. Christ, pouring some water on these animals is actually a favor for them in terms of their personal hygiene.
It's easy to be outraged by the use of torture by the evil monsters in the government, but if you put it on a personal level like Riverlove does it gets easier to see how it might be required in some situations. If the Kirkules family and the Chrisisall family were being held by terrorists and were going to be beheaded in one hour, I would have no problem turning over a terrorist captive to Chrisisall for interrogation. He would do what is required to save his family and so would the rest of you, you just see a big difference between it being done by an individual and it done by the government. Water boarding would be the least of the terrorist's worries if they were holding your family and you were in charge.
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 2:27 PM
RAP
Quote:Which brings me back to... Oh, really?
there are few on this board who recognize the real and actual threat that these Islamo-Jihadist pose
Think back to May 2001 and be honest: Were you expecting 9-11? Were you expecting a mjaor terrorist attack on American soil? 'Cause if not you were not recognizing the threat of Islamic extremists.
Say, were you for the Carter Admin arming the Taliban with shoulder-fired missiles? At the time, we were all told they were mujahideen which meant- in the American propagandist lexicon- freedom fighters.
Did you recognize the danger in that? I'm gonna make a prior claim to your so-called knowledge, Rap. You obviously feel you're one of the few who "really" knows what's going on. But you mistake panic for understanding, and you also mistake panic for effectiveness. But based on your posts, I peg you as a confused ignorant tool who hasn't a frigging clue about what's going on because you won't look past your comfort zone and THINK about .... well, pretty much anything. So you continue as perhaps the most gullible person on the board.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 2:41 PM
Quote:Ah yes, the Jack Bauer scenario. It's so disheartening sometimes to see how many people confuse a frigging TV show with real life!
It's easy to be outraged by the use of torture by the evil monsters in the government, but if you put it on a personal level like Riverlove does it gets easier to see how it might be required in some situations. If the Kirkules family and the Chrisisall family were being held by terrorists and were going to be beheaded in one hour...
If that were the case then yes, real agents would prolly use torture. But there's no reason to make it "legal" across the board because then it would be applied to all kinds of situations that- amazingly
- don't look anything like 24. Some of you are strict "law and order' types. You believe that law and punishment deters crime, and if laws are removed crime will flourish. If that's the case, then by your own logic making torture "legal" simply allows torture when it's not warranted.
But perhaps the Jack Bauer scenario comes up on very rare occasion: Somebody knows something important and in order to prevent an occurrence you have to get the information out of them right away. At that point, use of torture should be authorized by the President - and let the chips fall where they may. As President of the USA, Commander in Chief, and ultimate world diplomat, the responsibility for breaking the Geneva Convention (which we signed and ratified, making it "the law of our land") should fall on his shoulders.
On a side-note, in the case of violent civilian criminals who generally aren't calculating their actions, laws and punishment aren't a good deterrent. Civilian violent crime is mostly unpremeditated, and consequences aren't part of the equation. OTOH laws on torture are one of the instances where laws WOULD work, because the people who apply torture... people for whom this is "a job"... will think about what happens afterwards.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 3:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Ah yes, the Jack Bauer scenario. It's so disheartening sometimes to see how many people confuse a frigging TV show with real life!
It seems to me that the "Jack Bauer scenario" is exactly what we are talking about here. You act as if the use of torture by our government is widespread. The Feds have used waterboarding three times while Amnesty Int. has used it once. This hardly amounts to the indiscriminate use of torture you suggest. When terrorists with info of a future attack are in custody it's always a "Jack Bauer scenario" for someones family, just not yours, because the odds are on your side.
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Saturday, May 3, 2008 3:31 PM
FINN
Quote:I read what you write Finn, and I also understand what you mean- prolly better than YOU understand yourself. So I'm gonna engage in a little psychoanalysis here, and if doesn't ring true to you I'm sure it will to people who're familiar with your posts.
One of these days, it might occur to you that you won’t look half a stupid as you do right now if you read what I say and respond to that, instead of responding to some imagined argument.
It's very important that you see yourself as a moral person. You're not a cynic. Your believe wholeheartedly in the sanctity of human life, freedom, democracy, your way of life. And these beliefs are shining beacons on a white hill.
But then it comes to real life. Actions are taken in support of some beliefs which contravene others. You believe in the sanctity of human life and you're against abortion. But what about collateral damage? You excuse that as "accidental" because we didn't intend to kill (hundreds of thousands to millions of) innocent bystanders. The way you justify very messy "means"- torture, murder, the imposition of tyranny- is by saying: We didn't mean to. It was for a greater good. It's not torture. Not as many people were killed as you think and besides, they weren't "really" innocent. It was technically legal. Worse would have happened otherwise. It's not about oil/ copper/ shipping/ bananas- it's about freedom. You will find a way to justify ANY means, including thermonuclear war, using some sort of "greater good" theory. Your righteousness is dangerous, because if anyone is a practitioner of moral relativism, it's you.
I've learned quite a few things from this board. I learned one huge lesson by comparing your ideology to real life, and what I've figure out is that bad means most often create bad ends: blowback. Taking over Iran via the Shah created Khomeini. Arming the Taliban and supporting Hussein created monsters. Turning South and Central America into our economic colonies created poverty, continuous revolutions, and an immigration problem that can't be stopped. Granting China MFN status when they were using prison (slave) labor drained away our jobs.
We should have walked our talk instead of aiming for World Domination. Sure, we wouldn't have become the world Imperial Power but we'd have a helluva higher standard of living and I think we'd be a lot more secure than we are now.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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