Normally, the UN can kiss my ass, but.....
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 04:17
VIEWED: 9010
PAGE 1 of 1
they got this one right anyways:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22814674-5001028,0
0.html?from=public_rss
Better enjoy those taser videos while you can. Once America has been sold to the higest bidder and we're under UN rule, the boys in blue won't be able to tase anymore.... that is, unless the UN just outright legalizes torture, which I suppose is very possible as well.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Doubt it'll have any impact here, Jack.
Of all the countries that signed off on the UN Convention on the rights of children, every civilized nation and a couple I might consider not to be so... only one, at this time, has refused to sign off.
Only one...
This one.
And when sanctions against a certain country that shall not be named come up, only one nation, generally, votes against them.
Care to guess ?
So no, it won't have much effect.
Thing is, I would rather not see them outright banned, since they ARE less lethal than a firearm and can save lives in a case where otherwise you would shoot someone - but it seems it's gonna have to happen cause we cannot trust the goons we issued them to behave like adults instead of swaggering high school jockboys, and no one is willing to adopt the policies that would limit or prevent their abuse in spite of that fact.
So I guess ban it's gonna be, which we'll conveniently ignore just like we do edicts against a certain country that shall not be named.
Our membership in the UN, who quite rightfully pitched us off the council for human rights, seems to be reaching a shit or get off the pot position - in this I am not fully in agreement with Ron Paul, as I think we should take a leadership position and lead by example, making friends instead of enemies, allies instead of opponents, and help clean out the corruption of the UN itself - but I think we've effectively destroyed our own reputation enough that such is no longer possible at this time.
So either do it right, or pull out and tell em where to stuff their dues, but damn man, one or the other, yanno ?
Halfassery is just stupid.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
"The use of these weapons causes acute pain, constituting a form of torture," the UN's Committee against Torture said.
Well, I guess pepper spray, bily clubs, restraining holds, handcuffs, piling on, etc. are all right out too, since they can also cause acute pain. Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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You're right. And i would believe if they were trying to outlaw them those would exact examples of what we'd say to defend it.
Honestly, if you are say about 190 lb and about 6 feet tall and, you are having to arrest a hostile man who is about 275 and 6 foot 7. What are you gonna want that you know will take him down? The very effective taser!
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Well....when you put it that way.....
it sounds like something Bill would say on FOX's no spin zone....
lol
Just playin with you Geeze....
I'm not entirely opposed to tazers. I think that in crucial circumstances that they can be a great boon to law enforcement, and civiilzation in general. I'm just not too impressed with ways that I've seen them used as of late. I'm sure I don't see many (if any) good uses that the tazer has produced since it's adoption by law enforcement officals, but I realize that at the same time, I rarely ever see a criminal get away on America's Wildest Police Chases either. To show the other side would to be to discredit the intent of those showing the images.
There's camera's everywhere now, most importantly in this case right on the front of the cop car, that can show both sides of what happens. I have no problem with our law enforcement using them if it is used in a judicious and intelligent manner as if the cops had some training before being given that power.
I have a problem, however, when cops think to themselves "hey... I've got this amazing weapon that won't kill the victim. That means I can pretty much use it like I'm James Bond with a license to kill....."
These cops should be tried in a fair court of law. Every single person who is guilty of using one when not legally permitted to do so should lose their badge and any medical care they recieve and any possible pension they had.
That's the end of me on my soap box here......
EDITED TO ADD: Here's a link of something I believe can't be warranted by the people.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1
Nothing like getting tazed in the back for not complying with orders, (with no legal basis) especially when you never once posed a physical threat... "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain.
For an incompetent fool, perhaps. A trained professional would realize those aren't the only two alternatives. It's a false dichotomy Geez. These things are being held up as an alternative to lethal force, but that's not how they're being used. The cops tasing protesting college kids, or argumentative drivers in traffic stops, aren't facing this hypothetical dilemma. They're looking for a way to control the situation that's easier for them. That's all this is about, convenience for cops. Don't try to tell me that being electrocuted is 'for my own good'.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
These cops should be tried in a fair court of law. Every single person who is guilty of using one when not legally permitted to do so should lose their badge and any medical care they recieve and any possible pension they had.
I hear ya, but I still think there's something inherent in the designed use of these things that makes them 'cruel and unusual punishment' from the onset.
For those of you so enthusiastic about granting ultimate power to authority, answer me this hypothetical question. Let's say someone develops a way to implant a remotely triggered 'pain chip' in the human brain at birth. It's foolproof, can't be removed, and can only be triggered by police officers. It would give them the ability to completely disable anyone in they deal with instantly and with no permanent damage. Would you be as excited about that? Would it keep us 'safe'? By all the arguments beign trotted out for tasers, this new tool would be awesome, right?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Sarg;
First, if they even get seriously close about installing such a chip in 'everybody', I'm heading North.
Second, unless you are -also- going to take away their guns, I'd rather police be issued both; with severe penalties for misusing the taser ; with reviews as Frem and I have been discussing over time. If you are ready to take the guns away from the cops, then ok, I'd be happy to see tasers go too.
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I guess it comes down to a question of how much control we want authority to have. I want it to be minimal. I want to have the choice whether to fight back or not. I'm not willing to give them the ability to reach into my mind and fuck with my very will. I want to be able to say, "You can kill me, but you can't control me." Hopefully, I'll never feel compelled to choose that option, but I want it to be there.
The thing is, we are rapidly approaching the point where technology (tasers are only the beginning) will be capable of rendering resistance futile. We'll be able to not only catch and punish people who break the law, but control them to the point that they can't break the law in the first place. We'll put chips in their cars so they can be disabled by authorities. We'll have cameras everywhere to detect any 'suspicious behaviour'. We'll track and monitor everyone who seems like a threat (to the government?). I suspect a fair number of people today think those sorts of things would be a good idea, and that frightens me.
Freedom, real freedom, also includes the freedom to break the law. It includes the freedom to resist.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Yeah. Best we go back to the good ole days, when a sturdy billy club got the job done....
"Hillary tried to get a million dollars for the Woodstock museum. I understand it was a major cultural and pharmaceutical event. I couldn't attend. I was tied up at the time." - John McCain
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Re: Taser + Camera.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...
You look at the crap they're willing to pull on camera, in front of witnesses, and you think about how bad it likely is when they are not.
You *have* to address the core corruption of the sub-society that is the police force itself, before you have a hope in hell of ever getting them to act like human beings.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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maybe there should be some sort of standard inquiry in front of a board every time an officer uses a tazer.
Isn't there something in place like that for when they end up shooting somebody, even if its lawful? maybe not. I'm using tv shows as my source here...
granted, that's used more to cover their ass and make things look as if they took the matter gravely, than it is to unearth any wrong-doing,
but I'd expect a cop who had to go through all those hoops every time he used a tazer, to think twice about it, you know, in those situations when he has time to think twice about it(which means he shouldn't be fucking using it!)
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Hello,
I don't advocate banning guns, and I don't advocate banning tasers.
They should just be used appropriately.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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As was mentioned before tasers were originally an alternative to deadly force - ie guns. Where before you'd reach for your gun, you were suppose to reach for your taser.
NOW they're being used as 'a routine method to gain compliance'.
Is there anyone here who doesn't see the difference ? Geezer ?
And Frem has a good point - if they do this kind of stuff on camera, what about when the camera is off ?
Tasers have become an all-purpose tool. Be queit. ZZTT. Move along. ZZTTT. Come with me ZZZTTT. Sign the ticket. ZZTTT. Did you shoplift this ? ZZTTT. He punched my partner. Time for street justice. ZZZZTT. ZZZTT. ZZTTT. Let's see what a badass he is now. ZZZTT. ZZZTTT.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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OK, so Tasers are evil... should we go back to using batons? A Taser prevents harm to the officer and Tasers do NOT result in death. In every recorded case it has been due to additional factors almost always involving resistance from the suspect and use of additional weapons or techniques. (Taser, plus baton, plus pepper spra, as well as body weight of officers to keep the subject subdued).
Sure, I understand the Taser can be classified as a form of torture. But how is pepper spray then not? Shooting burning hot sauce into someone's eyes must also be torture so scratch that.
Then we've got the baton. Very crude, basically whacking someone until they're bruised and beaten to a pulp. That's not very nice, scratch that.
So, we're left with the gun. Don't want to use that in a lot of situations, you know it does cause death. But technically death is worse than torture (it ranks higher in the UN Declaration of Human Rights).
So say we arm officers with what they've already got: their fists and feet. I'll admit properly trained martial arts experts can be very effective. But I don't see every police officer there is becoming such an expert. Especially when the assailant may have a their own weapon (from baton, to knife, to gun).
So I think it is important to remember here that every technique or tool that the police use can be classified in one way or another as either torture or against one right or another. The purpose of these tools is to subdue those who are breaking the law and resisting arrest. We should realise that yes we would like to avoid using these tools but in the end it is for the same reason we take our people's liberty and send them to jail and say it is ok.
* Mind you, these past couple of weeks their has been some bad judgement calls by the police as to the use of the Taser.
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And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer
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"So, we're left with the gun."
As was mentioned before tasers were originally an alternative to deadly force - ie guns. Where before you'd reach for your gun, you were suppose to reach for your taser.
NOW they're being used as 'a routine method to gain compliance'.
Anyone here NOT see the difference ? Tpage ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Well, all I can say is that if this is the direction we're moving in, I can only consider the cops as my enemy, and by extension, myself a criminal. Go ahead. Keep pushing us.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Anyone here NOT see the difference ? Tpage
I'm seeing it Rue, but the point falls on deaf ears. The argument of tasers as alternatives to deadly force is fake and doesn't address any of the abuse cases being discussed.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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I was just hoping that people who posit tasers as an all purpose tool will understand that their original use was as an alternative to deadly force only. That's the reason why they came into acceptance even though everyone at the time understood the potential for abuse.
Geezer snickeringly said - "Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain." Aside from being an obvious false dilemma, polite conversation is one of THE most effective tools for gaining cooperation and deescalating a situation. It's the CHP's first weapon of choice, so to speak. And when dealing with potentially unstable people, "have you eaten today?" and "can I get you anything?" get a far better response and more cooperation than anything else.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I don't now, nor have I ever, gave a damn what the UN thinks. They have proven time and again that they are inept, undecisive, and corrupt to the core. It's apparently fine and dandy to kill people for having a different ethnicity or religion in nearly every part of the world, so long as we, here in America, don't mistreat our criminals, lol.
The hell with the UN and their rules, opinions, and all around wussy ways. What have they ever done that was worth talking about? What have they accomplished? NOTHING.
So who cares what they think?
Bad_karma
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I don't. But they happen to be right in this case. Our nation is so lost in its post 9/11 insecurity that we can't see it, but it's there if you look.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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A policeman tased a dude for not taking a speeding ticket- you can also start a car with a dead battery using 'em- they truly are the all-purpose tool!
Tasers all around! Chrisisall
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Actually, my feelings for the UN aside, I don't believe they are correct. I know that the panic mongers among us are crying havoc over the use of Tasers and other stun devices, and I am not so stupid as to believe that there are those out there that don't misuse them.
The answer, however, is not disarming the police, but rather punishing severely those among them who misuse and abuse their authority. The simple fact is that it is more dangerous than ever to be a police officer of any level, thanks to our liberal judges and politicians who want to be everyone's 'friend' and make sure that America punishes only those of us who obey the law and try to make a good living.
There are rotten cops out there, we've all seen them. Lean on those in power to get rid of them, instead of pulling the teeth of every officer out there. If we keep restriciting the tools available to the police, sooner or later they will simply stop responding to violent calls, finding some reason or other that prevents them from rushing to the scene until the violence is past.
If they do that, then we'll see who the enemy is, lol, and it won't be the ones wearing the badges I'm willing to bet. Well, it will to those who simply hate the law no matter what.
And, if it does come to that, I don't blame them for not placing their own lives in danger when they are denied the tools they need to protect the rest of us because of the hysterical ramblings of so many people living in dreamland over a few jackboot types who should have been fired. Better yet, imprisoned.
Bad_karma
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Quote:In fact, batons and physical restraint are far, far more likely to cause injury and death then tasers.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Well, I guess pepper spray, bily clubs, restraining holds, handcuffs, piling on, etc. are all right out too, since they can also cause acute pain. Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain.
It’s funny how people would rather see detainees killed by physical restraint then have to listen to someone scream from being tasered. It’s a completely emotional and irrational response (and a little bit selfish) and it's a dangerous response, because it’s going to get people killed.
The UN is dumb.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Where's Hero to tell us why this was warranted, and how it's legal?
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
EDITED TO ADD: Here's a link of something I believe can't be warranted by the people.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1
Nothing like getting tazed in the back for not complying with orders, (with no legal basis) especially when you never once posed a physical threat...
Yeah, a free country...free to abuse, that is
not THE MAN Chrisisall
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Wull, I don't much expect to be heard by the folks that particularly need to understand the distinction, but it's an issue of absolute power and control. A taser removes your will from the equasion. None of those other things (batons, pepper spray, etc.) will do that with the kind of mechanical, physiological certainty of a taser. The taser represents a level of actual control that should be understood as a violation of human dignity. No one deserves that (sure, if you're in a life and death situation, human dignity may have to be discounted temporarily--but that's what Rue and others are talking about--life and death situations).
But that's one of the big, BIG problems of our age--many, many people still believe that certain folks do not deserve to have their dignity respected. The idea seems to be that certain folks can forfeit their right to being treated with dignity by their actions.
I was nearly arrested last year, pulled out of a bathroom, pushed against a wall, searched/slapped, and manhandled out to the squad car because I matched the broadest description (long hair, backpack, 40ish) of a man who stabbed a clerk at a nearby Safeway. When it was brought to light that I was not the attacker, this cop clearly felt ashamed and tried to prop himself up by suggesting that I'd have wanted him to treat the actual attacker the way he'd mistakenly treated me. I was so furious with this man at that point, all I could say was a simple "no" and let it go, get away from him and his gun asap.
This idea that certain people deserve to be treated like human garbage is central to the authoritarian mindset. Of course it has far more to do with the punisher's desire to do harm, to humiliate and to dominate than it does with the highly debatable "deserving" of the victim. These folks have a lot of violence that they want to do in the world (they've surely had a lot of violence done to them) so they create a society where their violent urges will be realized and culturally acceptible (at least vicariously/voyeuristically through the police and the military). But, no mistake, it is about sadism--about gaining satisfaction, not safety, through violence. It is about all the anarchic rage that channels itself into whatever "lawful" outlet people can find.
What do all these cops that misuse tasers have in common? Well, they got issues, don't they? They're angry folks that don't feel that they have enough power in the world. And they find an acceptible outlet for that in using the taser. Such folks need to be educated about the human soul, but most of all they need to be educated about their OWN souls.
Oh well, maybe in their next life time, right? 
(That last joke was mainly for Chrisisall--hey Chris! 
)
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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HK,
I find myself, once again, indebted to your eloquence. This is exactly what I've been trying to say. Thanks.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:So instead we’ll just beat their head in with a baton or crush their larynx with a knee? I think the issue is more deeply rooted in the empathetic response of observers then any issue of totalitarianism. You can, and nations have, inflicted far greater total rule of a populace with nothing more than batons and knees. The problem with tasers is that they cause pain which is clearly visible. An observer cannot escape the “feel” that someone is being hurt. But it’s purely emotional. The detainee could possibly be controlled quietly, which is more acceptable to critics of the taser, but only with the use of physical force that would leave far greater trauma on the detainee and possibly result in the detainee’s death. It’s completely irrational.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But that's one of the big, BIG problems of our age--many, many people still believe that certain folks do not deserve to have their dignity respected. The idea seems to be that certain folks can forfeit their right to being treated with dignity by their actions.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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God, that's depressing.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I was just hoping that people who posit tasers as an all purpose tool will understand that their original use was as an alternative to deadly force only. That's the reason why they came into acceptance even though everyone at the time understood the potential for abuse.
Who's "...posit(ing) tasers as an all purpose tool"? I just don't think they should be banned as torture. They're a tool which can be used properly or misused, just like anything else. Obviously, all law enforcement in the country hasn't gotten appropriate training, but if you give up any tool that a few misuse, pretty soon you're down to nothing.
Quote:
Geezer snickeringly said - "Looks like the only choices are polite conversation or a bullet to the brain." Aside from being an obvious false dilemma,
Not snickering, and it seems a real dilemma to me.
Okay, besides taser/billyclub/handcuffs/pepperspray/restraining holds/piling on or any other actions which may cause intense pain, other alternatives against a violent person (other than talk and bullets) are? Remember that threat of death or serious injury causing intense fear is also torture, so 'stop or I'll shoot' doesn't qualify.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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badkarma
You are so full of attitude and so short of facts.
"The hell with the UN ... What have they ever done that was worth talking about? What have they accomplished? NOTHING."
They eradicated smallpox and are close to eradicating polio. That's no small accomplishment.
"it is more dangerous than ever to be a police officer of any level ..."
It's actually not that dangerous being a cop. It's over 500x more dangerous being in transportation, farming or logging.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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"people would rather see detainees killed by physical restraint"
"So instead we’ll just beat their head in with a baton or crush their larynx with a knee?"
Hello. Words ? Pepper spray ? There is FAR less danger to either party using words, and very little danger using pepper spray. Why use a taser when either of those would suffice ?
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Most normal people assume using the LEAST amount of force needed is the goal. Others here don't make that assumption. I don't know what category that puts them in, but it ain't normal.
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Quote:To begin with Pepper spray is only really effective when it contacts the face. It’s hard to aim and it splatters. It should also be noted that pepper spray can cause serious issues for people respiratory problems. Pepper spray is good for stopping an offender, but it’s less effective in forcing compliance. Once the suspect is stopped, they still need to be subdued so that he cuffs can be put on and pepper spray is probably more likely to cause problems with this as a detainee may be unwilling to move his hands away from his face, since his eyes and nose are killing him right now. It’s effects last - a long time, where the pain inflicted by a taser disappears as soon as the taser stops. I’d much rather be tasered then pepper sprayed.
Originally posted by rue:
Hello. Words ? Pepper spray ? There is FAR less danger to either party using words, and very little danger using pepper spray. Why usee a taser when either of those would suffice ?
It may sometimes be preferable to a taser, but it‘s not a replacment.
As far as “using words“, well communication is ALWAYS the preferable initial tactic now isn’t it, but only an absolute fool would rely on it in all situations especially if the initial attempt to communicate has failed. Basically, if we’re talking about tasers and pepper spray, we can all assume that communication has failed.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Like the cop that tasered the driver who wouldn't sign the ticket ? Oh, I told him to, he didn't so I used my taser.
A sterling example of the necessary use of a taser.
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Yeah, right.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So instead we’ll just beat their head in with a baton or crush their larynx with a knee?
How about using violence to oppose violent peeps? Non-violent perps can be handled in ways that don't include busted skulls or taser-induced heart falure.
It's the whole pre-emptive mindset where action is concerned that troubles me.
Have you seen this, Finn?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fae_1195587967&p=1
I think it's amazing how the officer spins the sit to seem like he needed to tase the fella.
And if the dude had died, I guarantee you this vid would be disappeared from jump.
Cowards love-y the taser. All of the abuse; none of the blood. Less paperwork that way.
And just to say it- yes, I DO think they have a place in law enforcement, just not in the hands of the average fool, which, unfortunately by my estimation, would be easily one-third of any group, including policemen.
An elitist, and proud of it Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
They eradicated smallpox and are close to eradicating polio. That's no small accomplishment.
Reversing its policy, UN agency promotes DDT to combat the scourge of malaria http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=19855&Cr=malaria&Cr1
"15 September 2006 – Nearly 30 years after safety concerns led to the phasing out of indoor spraying with DDT and other insecticides to control malaria, the United Nations health agency said today it will start promoting this method again to fight the global scourge that kills more than one million people every year, including around 3,000 children everyday."
For every one person the UN has helped, they probably have killed two with their meddling. Looks like maybe 50 million may have died over the past 30 years from Malaria thanks to UN.
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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Quote:If you say so. Sounds more like an inappropriate use to me, if what you say is true, but a cop can just as easily misuse, with far worse consequences, pepper spray or a baton.
Originally posted by rue:
Like the cop that tasered the driver who wouldn't sign the ticket ? Oh, I told him to, he didn't so I used my taser.
A sterling example of the necessary use of a taser.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:The best cops I know are mostly self-trained.
Originally posted by Geezer:
They're a tool which can be used properly or misused, just like anything else. Obviously, all law enforcement in the country hasn't gotten appropriate training
In my world cops are paid twice as much- but then it's twice as hard to become one.
The 'humanity' test is a snag Chrisisall
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Quote:Shit, a few more they'd be competing with the US government.
Originally posted by Kirkules:
For every one person the UN has helped, they probably have killed two with their meddling. Looks like maybe 50 million may have died over the past 30 years from Malaria thanks to UN.
Always the brides maid UN.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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"Looks like maybe 50 million may have died over the past 30 years from Malaria thanks to UN."
You pulled the 50 million out of your ass. Where you seem to get all your other 'facts' and attitudes.
I'll give you a tip. When you include a link, be sure it doesn't contradict you.
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"but a cop can just as easily misuse, with far worse consequences, pepper spray or a baton."
REALLY !
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Only if he aims it at his own face.
:snicker:
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Quote:So instead we’ll take away the taser, so that this supposed one third can abuse their power with batons? Instead of abuse with no blood, we’ll now have abuse with busted skulls and lots of blood? If what you say is true, this doesn’t sound like much of a deal. I’d rather the police not abuse their power, but if your cynical approach is true, and I can expect abuse from one third of the police force, then please let it be with a taser so I can avoid the brain damage that often associates cracked skulls.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Cowards love-y the taser. All of the abuse; none of the blood. Less paperwork that way.
And just to say it- yes, I DO think they have a place in law enforcement, just not in the hands of the average fool, which, unfortunately by my estimation, would be easily one-third of any group, including policemen.
I’m not a pretty guy and I’m no good at physical labor, if I don’t have my brains I’m out of work.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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It's the Taser or being beaten ! That's it ! There's nothing else. NOTHING ! My god, don't take the Taser away !
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Please Taser me, dude !
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You pulled the 50 million out of your ass.
Of coarse your right, only 32.9 million. That changes everthing.
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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Not even 32.9 million.
You forget that 1) populations were lower in the 1980's and there were fewer people to infect and 2) malaria has been spreading to places - including cities - where it never existed before, infecting a far larger percentage of people than ever.
It's a changing risk that driving the indoor (ie city) use of DDT. As opposed to areal spraying of large tracts that used to go on. BTW, DDT was dropped b/c the mosquitoes were becoming resistant to DDT.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’d rather the police not abuse their power, but if your cynical approach is true, and I can expect abuse from one third of the police force
I said no such thing- I said one third of any group is made up of fools. That means peeps that CAN make idiot decisions IF the situation arises. And OF that third there is a small abusive element- I have not worked out the percentage- so the chances of your being abused is quite small, unless you fit a perps description, or meet that one nutty cop on a deserted highway...
Precise Chrisisall
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Quote:In Chris’s world where one-third of the police force are abusive, that’s right. If you’re going to be abused would you rather be abused with a baton, which can crack your skull or a taser, which my uncles and cousin used on themselves for fun one Memorial Day. I’m simply high-lighting how irrational this anti-taser stuff is. If you want to condemn police abuse, okay, but if you want to condemn the taser as a tool of totalitarianism, you're probably a few volts shy of a full zap.
Originally posted by rue:
It's the Taser or being beaten ! That's it ! There's nothing else. NOTHING ! My god, don't take the Taser away !
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Okay, I misinterpreted you, but either way, I’d rather be abused with a taser instead of a baton, if I have to be abused at all, so until we can identify every officer who might be abusive, lets not encourage the use of batons when a taser will suffice. Just in case.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’d rather the police not abuse their power, but if your cynical approach is true, and I can expect abuse from one third of the police force
I said no such thing- I said one third of any group is made up of fools. That means peeps that CAN make idiot decisions IF the situation arises. And OF that third there is a small abusive element- I have not worked out the percentage- so the chances of your being abused is quite small, unless you fit a perps description, or meet that one nutty cop on a deserted highway...
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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taser - "which my uncles and cousin used on themselves for fun one Memorial Day"
I apologize but the first thing that comes to mind is that there were only so many brains to go around in your family, and a few relatives got really short-changed.
And which one is the cop ? Isn't it illegal for ordinary citizens to have these things ? And doesn't that say something about the quality of police force ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Huh. That explains a LOT.
which my uncles and cousin used on themselves for fun one Memorial Day.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:Yeah, that could be true. Not everyone in my family is real bright.
Originally posted by rue:
taser - "which my uncles and cousin used on themselves for fun one Memorial Day"
I apologize but the first thing that comes to mind is that there were only so many brains to go around in your family, and a few relatives got really short-changed.
Quote:Actually civilians can own tasers. I’m not sure where the taser came from, but I think it may have been my cousin’s, who is a security guard. Either way, they each tasered the other for some reason. Granted that’s probably a lot less traumatizing then being tased by an officer you don’t know trying to subdue you, but it certainly demonstrates in my mind how benign these devices are as a weapon. If you own a taser, I don’t recommend tasing yourself or something else for that matter who is not a threat, but every officer issued a taser, gets tased to experience the effect.
Originally posted by rue:
And which one is the cop ? Isn't it illegal for ordinary citizens to have these things ? And doesn't that say something about the quality of police force ?
And no, it doesn't say anything about the quality of security guards or police officers, just because one guy decides to play around with his taser at a family function. It might say something about the judgement of that one guy, but probably not near as much as you'd like.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"Tasers do NOT result in death. In every recorded case it has been due to additional factors almost always involving resistance from the suspect and use of additional weapons or techniques"
Unadulterated Bullshit, Tpage.
I've posted case after case, even two full studies where it was fully implicated - hell, they've even got a bullshit excuse, calling it "Excited Delirium".
But find me ONE single. solitary. case.
Where someone died from "ED" other than in police custody, as a result of compression asphixia, reaction to pepper spray, tasering, or some combination of the above.
Find me ONE single. case.
ONE.
So far, nobody's been able to do that, and what that tells me is that "ED" deaths are bullshit, and a coverup for murder-by-police, negligent or intentional.
And before you even open your mouth so shovel the rest of the shitstorm excuse, less than a QUARTER of all supposed "ED" deaths had any drugs or alcohol in their system.
If yer gonna argue the case, do it with something other than a set of Faery-Tale talking points someone else spoonfed you, thanks, cause I am gettin downright sick of that.
Beyond that is the simple common sense concept that we use, medically, electrical shock to the chest cavity to restart (paddles) or regulate (pacemaker) heart function, and is it so painfully hard to believe that a substantial electrical shock to the chest cavity under stressful conditions could UN-regulate heart function ?
The Taser is not, repeat *NOT*, a non-lethal device, even the US Military classifies it as a LESS-lethal device, as in less lethal than getting shot, which is the alternative.
Yes, used properly, they could save lives where otherwise you'd have no alternative but to shoot someone - but it's come down to the simple fact that the police as a force have proven beyond a doubt that without a radical reform of use policy, or revamp of force structure, they simply can NOT be trusted with the damned things.
What's worse is that it got this ugly in part due to denial and shouting down folks pointing out the problem for eighteen straight months before it became undeniably clear that there was a serious problem here - and now that abuse is completely rampant, good LUCK sticking that genie back in the bottle now that police have the ability to deliver a little vigilante "street justice" on those they don't like, or don't display complete subservience.
They know, even if it's a bullshit arrest that'll be thrown out before it ever gets to court, that they "got theirs" by handing out some pain and suffering - the EXACT SAME mindset and behavior one finds in juvenille street gangs or criminal mafias, only we accept this one lording over us because of the insane belief that words on paper can protect us from the ugly realities of life.
It's stupid, end to end, and unless they are willing to accept the revamps, reforms and oversight that would be absolutely *required* to prevent their abuse of the device, then hell no, they shouldn't have it - and even dumber is that adopting them and placing the Taser correctly on the force continuum would actually offer some level of legal protection to officers who did have to use one because they would be able to justify it's use in a court of law... but nope, they want their ego stroked more than they want the job done.
And that really tells me all I need to know, doesn't it ?
"Well, all I can say is that if this is the direction we're moving in, I can only consider the cops as my enemy, and by extension, myself a criminal. Go ahead. Keep pushing us."
Sarge, as I have said before, I have an understanding with the locals of the police dept, since they live here too - out of uniform, off duty, I will treat them as a person and fellow human, just like anyone else... especially since I fix small engine yard equipment around here...
But when they don the blues and the badge, they're the enemy, a jackbooted fascist thug and strongarm of the states oppressive apparatus and they'll be treated as such - their job *requires
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Wow, both barrels, clipped duplicate post.
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Quote:I'm interested when the UN invented malaria. Apparrently they've killed people with their meddling, and to support that we're given malaria deaths. Logically for that not to be a contradiction, the UN would have to have created malaria, no?
Originally posted by rue:
Not even 32.9 million.
You forget that 1) populations were lower in the 1980's and there were fewer people to infect and 2) malaria has been spreading to places - including cities - where it never existed before, infecting a far larger percentage of people than ever.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Rue,
Full of attitude? lol, thats funny
Im curious where you get your facts from. Ever worn a badge? Ever faced a man with a gun, or a woman for that matter, or watched while a criminal threatened to kill an innocent bystander?
Love to know where you get the 500x more dangerous to be a a farmer or a logger. I live in an area rife with logging, and abundant in farm land.
Does your statement mean that for every police officer killed or injured on the job, there are 500 injuries or deaths in these other fields? I'm just curious, not bashing what you said.
And, as I recall, polio was declared 'eradicated' some years back, yet we're still seeing polio cases. I admit that I hadn't read where the UN eradicated smallpox, but if they did, then good. I stand corrected, they have done one thing worth talking about.
That doesn't trump their uselessness in other areas though. Face it, the UN is just another bloated program that exists largely on funds provided by the US taxpayers, for which our thanks is their unwavering opposition to all things American.
How's that for attitude, dude?
Bad_karma
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Citizen, I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying is that if the UN had not meddled, there would have been 32 million fewer malaria deaths. Apparently left to their own devices, the local folks would have found an effective and affordable way to stop malaria cold.
Now, I'm not saying he's right. Frankly, I think it's a rather silly position to take.
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Having read some of the recent posts in this thread after my last one, I once again find myself wondering why I bother. The fact is that everyone has an opinion, and they will stick to it no matter what. And I don't exclude myself from that either.
I'm convinced that ESD's are a good tool, and oppose any effort to take them off the board as an alternative to shooting someone. I wore a badge for many years, and despite what some of you seem to think, honest cops hate dirty ones. It may be that my difference of opinion comes from living in a less populated area, I don't know. I'm aware that many of the older and larger cities are plagued with PD's that are essentially a old boy network, covering for each other.
You can all say that the job isnt dangerous, and fall back on 'let them find another job'. But what will you do when you need them, and find that they're all off driving the cab, or logging, or whatever other more dangerous job you claim to have found?
Anyway, I got better things to do than keep hammering my head against a wall like this, and I imagine you guys do to. There's a simple answer, once you strip away the hysteria and hype.
But since when do we do the simple things here in America. I mean, the simple things don't get us on TV do they?
So argue me out, and take care all.
Bad_karma
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Quote:Someone found an analysis of deaths in the United States based on occupation, and posted it in one of the RWED threads. If you search FFF you might be able to find it, but I know I was rather surprised to see how many professions had a higher casualty rate than police officers.
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Love to know where you get the 500x more dangerous to be a a farmer or a logger. I live in an area rife with logging, and abundant in farm land.
If Rue quotes 500x, I'm sure it's right. I don't remember the details.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I'm interested when the UN invented malaria. Apparrently they've killed people with their meddling, and to support that we're given malaria deaths. Logically for that not to be a contradiction, the UN would have to have created malaria, no?
The UN based on bad science, halted the use of the most effective insecticide(DDT) to prevent the "Malaria vector"(Mosquito)for 30 years. Maybe "killing" is to harsh, would you prefer negligent homicide.
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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It's called self-defense, kid.
Cops arrive in time to draw the chalk outlines anyhow, and I don't intend them to be around me.
But seriously, I just want em to DO the job they're paid to do without the abuse and whinging, is that too much to ask ?
Cause if it is... why have em ?
-F
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And as for the stats, here.
Originally posted by RUE - here
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31277
Quote:
BTW I know that a big deal has been made over the 'risk' of being a cop and why we should cut them some slack 'cause of all the 'danger' they face.
Doing some checking I found there were http://stats.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_revised05.htm 110 'police officer' deaths out of approximately 864,000 (0.01%) http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/police/index.html, while there were 47 'underground miner' deaths out of less than 19,000 (0.25 %).
I really think those underground miners deserve to react irrationally at times, due to the severe risk they face on the job.
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Cops are clearly wusses.
Quote:
Farming has THE highest fatality RATE, mining a close second, and 'transportation' after that, but cab drivers weren't a searchable category.
And I swear the BLS/ OSHA go out of their way to make the figures hard to come by.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA - here
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31277
Quote:
Hey Rue ?
Found some stats for ya.
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/pf/jobs_jeopardy/
Puts a bit of perspective on the so-called risk that the bluesuits milk every drop of public sympathy for - and nobody but the dispatcher, cussing the hole in his roster, gives much of a damn when a cabbie caps it.
Remind me not to go fishin anytime soon tho...
-F
Any more Faery Tales you need blown up ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Ever worn a badge? NO
Ever faced a man with a gun, or a woman for that matter YES - man (actually a policeman, who drew a gun on me as I wandered out with my dish towel to view the aftermath of a car accident in front of the next door neighbor's house)
or watched while a criminal threatened to kill an innocent bystander YES
The ECMC ER and surrounding neighborhood (where I lived for a while) were interesting places. I've also personally been stalked (4 times), beaten-up (once), had my dwelling burglarized twice (once when I was home), car stolen (once) and vandalized (more times than I can remember), threatened by a drug-seeking patient, exposed to several types of hepatitis, AIDS, and CJD. No life or job is without risk.
OOPS. I meant 50x not 500. (typo) 
It's by percentages of fatalities in job categories. These figures were gleaned from the BLS and other official sources.
--------------------------------------------
"polio was declared 'eradicated' some years back"
Polio has been eradicated around MOST of the globe. However, there are some places where the eradication effort was halted leading to an increase in polio which was then re-introduced into previously polio-free areas. There are also some isolated and remote areas with endemic polio that is a special strain not well-covered by the vaccine. Polio eradication is still an ongoing process and expected to be completed in the near future.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Kirkules
"The UN based on bad science, halted the use of the most effective insecticide(DDT) to prevent the "Malaria vector"(Mosquito)for 30 years. Maybe "killing" is to harsh, would you prefer negligent homicide."
When it comes to malaria:
"In 1955, the World Health Organization commenced a program to eradicate malaria worldwide, relying largely on DDT. Though this program was initially highly successful worldwide ... resistance soon emerged in many insect populations as a consequence of widespread agricultural use of DDT. In many areas, early victories against malaria were partially or completely reversed, and in some cases rates of transmission even increased.
Although the publication of Silent Spring undoubtedly influenced the U.S. ban on DDT in 1972, the reduced usage of DDT in malaria eradication began the decade before because of the emergence of DDT-resistant mosquitoes. In some areas DDT has lost much of its effectiveness, especially in areas such as India where outdoor transmission is the predominant form. Due to this DDT resistance, in Sri Lanka, parts of India, Pakistan, Turkey and Central America, DDT has already been replaced by organophosphate or carbamate insecticides, e.g. malathion or bendiocarb.
Criticisms of a ban on DDT often refer specifically to the 1972 US ban (with the implication that this constituted a worldwide ban), while ignoring that DDT has NOT been banned for public health use in most areas of the world where malaria is endemic." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT
In most of rural Africa, the UN is using insecticide-treated sleeping nets as the preferred method of malaria control. http://www.afro.who.int/malaria/publications/who_unicef_joint_statemen
t.pdf
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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50x I can buy well enough, especially as it deals with percentages, not actual figures without regard to per capita. Thanks for the post.
Like I said, most of you on here bashing the cops seem to live in bigger cities, and probably Yankee cities at that, though Im guessing. And they do seem to have PD's with attitude enough to spare.
It just seems to me that bashing ALL cops based on the actions of a few is like declaring all cars bad because a few malfunctioned. People wearing a badge are just as prone to fear as anyone else, and they are just human.
Anyway, wanted to say thanks for the info, and like I said before, this isn't getting anywhere, so maybe next time I can bit my lip instead of winding up in one of these threads.
Hope you all have a great, safe, holiday season!
Bad_karma
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My uncle was a cop so I know not all cops are bad. But in the light of a few bad cops (and there are some really bad ones) one needs to have excellent policies. IMHO
Anyway, I hope you have a great safe holiday season yourself !
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Although the publication of Silent Spring undoubtedly influenced the U.S. ban on DDT in 1972,
DDT has already been replaced by organophosphate or carbamate insecticides, e.g. malathion or bendiocarb.
I've read all of this before. Just because DDT was improperly used was not a reason to stop using it for thirty years. Many pesticides are misused but the answer isn't to ban them its to train people to use them properly. I'm still not convinced that any of the alternative insecticides are as effective as DDT. I do think the ban in the US made sense because the risk out weighed the benefit here.
Of course I am biased by the fact that I'm still pissed off about the banning of Cloridane in the US. Went from being able to effectively prevent termites for about $5 to having to pay a professional $1200.
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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1) DDT was improperly used in agriculture so it stopped working for malaria control.
2) DDT was not banned in most places outside the US especially for vector control.
3) "then you need to apply some of the handy chemicals out there that contain boron. Not only can you protect your house's lumber from wood boring insects like termites, beetles and carpenter ants, the borate chemicals also protect against fungi (brown, white, and wet rot) that cause wood decay.
The application of borate solutions directly to lumber is not really new. These chemicals have been widely used in Europe, Australia, and New Zealand for nearly 40 years."
http://www.askthebuilder.com/272-StopTermites-Soak-Wood-with-Safe-Bora
tes.shtml
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Thanks for the info unfortunately Borates are only effective when applied pre-construction. "Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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They can be applied post-construction but you have to be careful to apply it to all places.
http://www.prginc.com/Borates/boracare-table.pdf
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Thanks to you, HK, for trying. But it seems you were right. Those who most need to hear it aren't listening.
I'll just say this much. If any of these chickenshits uses a taser on me or mine, he'd better fucking kill me. 'Cause I won't be forgettin'.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:If you say so. Sounds more like an inappropriate use to me, if what you say is true, but a cop can just as easily misuse, with far worse consequences, pepper spray or a baton.
Originally posted by rue:
Like the cop that tasered the driver who wouldn't sign the ticket ? Oh, I told him to, he didn't so I used my taser.
A sterling example of the necessary use of a taser.
I was going to wait until the end to make a post, which I still plan on doing, but I had to comment on this invalid argument because it is just so egregiously wrong.
First of all, in this particular example, the man did not do anything illegal whatsoever. By Utah law, you are not required to sign a ticket, but this is a moot point in the first place. After having recieved a citation, even if he were to rip it up in front of the officer, he has still violated the law by speeding and will have violated the law again if he doesn't show up to court or pay the fine. Now he will have to answer for two crimes, instead of one.
Pretty stupid, right?
This cop was just on a power trip and tazed the guy because he had the audacity not to act like a scared little eunich when the cop was bossing him around and acting in an inappropriate manner by giving orders that the civilian did not have to comply with in the first place.
Then he got tazed for standing up for his rights.
HERE IS THE BIG POINT (THUS, THE BOLD TYPE AND CAPITAL LETTERS):
THIS COP WOULD NOT HAVE BRUTALIZED THIS MAN WITH A BATON OR SHOT HIM HAD HE NOT BEEN ARMED WITH THE TAZER. LOOKING ONLY AT THIS ONE PARTICULAR CASE WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE INFLUENCE, THE TAZER GAVE THIS COP THE ABILITY TO EXERT HIS WILL ON SOMEONE WHO HE HAD NO RESPECT FOR.... PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Three more points I'd like to make:
1. I have no use for the UN at all and I loathe them even more than police. I simply used that to get a debate started here, which apparently worked very well.
2. I am not calling for a ban on tazers altogether, just a very in-depth training regimen for all law enforcement officials who will carry one. And, much more importanlty, a very serious inquery into officers who have been accused of misusing the tazer. One in which officers really are punished, suspended and even terminated without benefits for mis-use of the tazer. ONE WHICH WOULD ELIMINATE A "REFLEX" ACTION TO USE THE TAZER AND MAKE AN OFFICER THINK JUST AS HARD ABOUT USING THE TAZER AS HE WOULD USING A GUN.
3. I honestly don't see how anybody could watch this video on either side of the fence and not agree that this cop deserves to be punished severely for what he has done. If cops didn't get caught on camera doing stupid shit like this, people like me wouldn't have much of an argument in the first place. He's just making it easier for our case and harder for your case.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:And what is so egregiously wrong about this argument?
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:Quote:I was going to wait until the end to make a post, which I still plan on doing, but I had to comment on this invalid argument because it is just so egregiously wrong.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:If you say so. Sounds more like an inappropriate use to me, if what you say is true, but a cop can just as easily misuse, with far worse consequences, pepper spray or a baton.
Originally posted by rue:
Like the cop that tasered the driver who wouldn't sign the ticket ? Oh, I told him to, he didn't so I used my taser.
A sterling example of the necessary use of a taser.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And what is so egregiously wrong about this argument?
Sorry Finn. I got all wrapped up in the post that I didn't get to that until after you posted back apparently.
It's the part in bold caps where I said:
THIS COP WOULD NOT HAVE BRUTALIZED THIS MAN WITH A BATON OR SHOT HIM HAD HE NOT BEEN ARMED WITH THE TAZER. LOOKING ONLY AT THIS ONE PARTICULAR CASE WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE INFLUENCE, THE TAZER GAVE THIS COP THE ABILITY TO EXERT HIS WILL ON SOMEONE WHO HE HAD NO RESPECT FOR.... PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Not that I'm yelling at you here. Should have probably decapitalized it here for the repeat to you, but I'm being lazy now.....
I altered the post a bit more than that too. Not used to somebody replying so quickly the hours that I'm posting here....
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:I actually just sat down at the computer (taking a break from painting my living room). I didn’t realize that you had just posted. Normally, I do wait little while before replying to see if the poster makes any changes.
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I altered the post a bit more than that too. Not used to somebody replying so quickly the hours that I'm posting here....
Anyway, I don’t agree with your assertion that the officer would not have brutalized this person if he hadn’t have had a taser. You could be right, but you have no way of knowing that and it certainly doesn’t make sense to personify a taser with some sort of abusive power, because it is the officer, not the instrument, that is abusive. If an officer is abusive, he or she will be so with or without a taser. It just so happens that the taser is the instrument commonly used today. In the past, it was the baton. Officers abused their power long before tasers came on the scene and they will do so long after tasers are replaced with something else. There will always be a certain (small) percentage of bad cops. And their actions will never be the fault of the instrument they are using. As far as controlling the use of tasers, that also has nothing to do with the taser, but everything to do with limiting abuse of powerful in the police force. To put the taser center front on this matter, does nothing more then draw attention away form the real issue.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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No worries. Sorry for the confusion. I tend to re-read my posts and alter them a bit. Bad habit, I know, but it's the way my brain works and I just go with it.
But I see we're coming to a point we can have some common ground though. You are correct in that there is no way that I could know if this officer would not have resorted to the club had he not had a tazer. He very well may have. We've already witnessed his lack of regard for this other man. It's just that I think he would have thought very hard about crossing that line, because of the lasting and visible effects that a bashing would leave. You know.... visible proof of wrongdoing.
I think we both agree here that in this particular case, the officer was wrong. I just think that this officer should be just as severely punished for what he has done as he would have been had he bludgeoned this guy with the club or popped a cap in his knees.
I'm not calling for disarming the cops, just a serious investigation be done on misuses such as this.
Can you agree with that? Because if you can, my work here is done. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:The only way to know if tasers induce abusive behavior is to look at the frequency of "baton use" before introducing tasers versus the frequency of taser use and baton use afterwards. Although I doubt that it would be easy to come by these statistics.
You could be right, but you have no way of knowing that and it certainly doesn’t make sense to personify a taser with some sort of abusive power, because it is the officer, not the instrument, that is abusive. If an officer is abusive, he or she will be so with or without a taser. It just so happens that the taser is the instrument commonly used today. In the past, it was the baton. Officers abused their power long before tasers came on the scene and they will do so long after tasers are replaced with something else. There will always be a certain (small) percentage of bad cops. And their actions will never be the fault of the instrument they are using. As far as controlling the use of tasers, that also has nothing to do with the taser, but everything to do with limiting abuse of powerful in the police force. To put the taser center front on this matter, does nothing more then draw attention away form the real issue.
Someone in another thread- same topic- said that they WANT the use of force to be fraught with danger and consequence for the cop and I agree with that reasoning. There has to be some sort of barrier to "bad cop-ism".
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
For every one person the UN has helped, they probably have killed two with their meddling. Looks like maybe 50 million may have died over the past 30 years from Malaria thanks to UN.
Shit, a few more they'd be competing with the US government.
Always the brides maid UN.
Citizen:
After having read some of your posts I will readily concede that you are ________ more intelligent and articulate than myself. Having said that, If you chose to talk down to me, or badmouth my country again, I promise name calling will in-sue.
Edited: Remove word "probably"
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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Jack, what stuck in my craw overtop of that was the sheer arrogance of flat out lying about it, on camera... like he didn't care, cause no one is gonna take him to task for it cause he's a cop.
THAT, imop, is far more dangerous in the long run than the tasing was.
And it's the core and root of the problem.
Sarge ?
Ya might be interested, the same folk who brought to you the cell phone jammer are workin on a project resurrected from back when a lot of rapists were using stunguns, although I am not gonna spare any more details than that at this time.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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OOOOOOHHHH ! Interesting notion. Well man, I'll be ready for you to dish.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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"badmouth my country"
Uhhhh. The US has a LOT to answer for. You know that, right ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I don't really mind being called a dumb ass, as long as the person doing so has some wisdom to impart in addition. Ive already learned a lot reading this site. I don't even mind people trashing the US if they've got a particular grievance they would like to discuss. Just seems impolite to talk bad about another's home country for no particular reason. "Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Citizen:
After having read some of your posts I will readily concede that you are probably more intelligent and articulate than myself. Having said that, If you chose to talk down to me, or badmouth my country again, I promise name calling will in-sue.
Don't mind Cit. He hates America and Americans and reason. Don't bother arguing with him either because he's always right.
Better to just ignore him and he'll go away if he has nobody to fight with.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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I hear ya all the way Frem. The tazing is only a symptom of his extreme arrogance and disrespect for people around him. He is a cop and a civvy wasn't doing what he was commanding him to do and regardless of the legality of his orders he was going to show this guy who was boss.
Just don't think there are a lot of cops willing to cross that line anymore with batons because the brutality of the stick is much more readily apparent than it is with a tazer, particularly when everybody hears what a great thing the tazer is and how it's completely safe.
The tazer seriously undermines the focal point of this situation, which is where the line between upholding the law as an officer and crossing that line actually stands.
If used as a means to absolute compliance, rather than self defense, the tazer is one of the most dangerous weapons mankind has ever invented against freedom.
-------
Can't wait to hear what it is you're talking about. I'll look like a spaceman with my cell phone jammer, my faraday cage, my tazer blocker body suit and my tinfoil hat. 
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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I know that 'tinfoil' hats (commonly meant to refer to aluminum foil) are a funny reference to paranoia.
SignyM mentioned in a PM about a call from a concerned citizen who said the people in the upstarts apartment were beaming signals in to control her thoughts. She'd already tried aluminum foil.
Just a reminder that indeed there are people who really are paranoid and delusional and maybe even hallucinating a bit. And they are in a major hell not of their own making, and, crazy as they are, they know enough to still try to find a way out.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I know that 'tinfoil' hats (commonly meant to refer to aluminum foil) are a funny reference to paranoia.
...
Just a reminder that indeed there are people who really are paranoid and delusional and maybe even hallucinating a bit. And they are in a major hell not of their own making, and, crazy as they are, they know enough to still try to find a way out.
Yup.... that all about sums me up, though I really don't think there is any need for tinfoil hats because we've all been conditioned very well from 3 generations of television. Maybe tinfoil sunglasses, but then I'd have to wear them all day and bump into all kinds of shit, and more importantly, I'd have to turn that damn boob tube off once in a while.
I don't think I'm in hell though. I'm just hoping there is a heaven and it's a lot better than here. Otherwise, I really can't see the point in any of this....
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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*hands Jack one monkeywrench, one bag of sand, and detailed instructions*
The POINT, Jack, is to leave this shithole a better place than we found it, not a worse one, and if that fails, stem the tide as best we can.
Be damned if I want my nieces to face the future of MY failures.
Oh, and FYI, found a manufacturer of the product mentioned above that doesn't lead back to my people, so here you go.
http://www.thorshield.com/
http://www.thorshield.com/prod01.htm
G2 sells ONLY to jackboots, don't even try any funny biz with em, cause they're a buncha law and order bootlickers of the Erik Prince stripe and would prolly whine about you to homeland security... nice to know we don't live in a police state, eh ?
*SNARK!*
But contrary to their opinion that they're the only source of such material, they ain't.
And one AGAIN the whole class-war issue rears it's head here, doesn't it ?
Only the Lords are allowed to defend themselves against such things, us Peons better bend the knee, or else.... fuck em, the REAL free market operates without regard to silly things like laws and regulations, and always has.
For myself, I wonder just how many of you on the other side of the screen are currently smoking cigarettes smuggled to avoid henious tax practices, or would be, if you only had the contacts.
Commerce Continues - it's a law of nature and society, even amongst subsentient primates.
Anyhow, this stuff'll be flooding the market soon, in direct response to police abuse of the device, and yeah, I know, it's gonna find it's way into the hands of some crooks, but it's gonna do that ANYWAY, just like guns do, ok ?
How long you think it's gonna be before criminals figure out they can dodge a firearms rap by zapping you out with a taser, jacking your stuff and getting in the wind, since it's non-lethal and all... your life wasn't in danger, right ?
Crooks are stupid, true, but like all humans they DO learn and adapt, if slowly - to ignore that fact is to ignore reality.
So a fighting chance is on the way, give it time.. folks gotta get it to the "market" in ways that don't lead back to them, cause nobody involved wants a buncha hyped up rocket jock no-knock jackboots kickin in their door at 3am, right ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:That was the UN's program to begin with. So you're actually upset with their lack of meddling...
Originally posted by Kirkules:
The UN based on bad science, halted the use of the most effective insecticide(DDT) to prevent the "Malaria vector"(Mosquito)for 30 years. Maybe "killing" is to harsh, would you prefer negligent homicide.
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Quote:Calm down man. I wasn't badmouthing your country, if you notice what I wrote, I was bad mouthing your government, not your country. Also what I said was more flippant than anything else, how you read into it to the point that I was talking down to you is beyond me, it certainly wasn't as it was meant. However, frankly the US governments international meddling is at least on a par with the UN's, so it seems a mite unfair to be trashing the UN, then demanding an appology for pointing out the US governments own faults in that area.
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Citizen:
After having read some of your posts I will readily concede that you are probably more intelligent and articulate than myself. Having said that, If you chose to talk down to me, or badmouth my country again, I promise name calling will in-sue.
As for you Jack, your continued intolerance for any other point of view bores me, feel free to continue to be a rabid fascist, but please leave me out of it. I have no concern whether you ignore me or not, I have nothing to learn from you anyway, but keep your ussual self righteous baiting and trolling behaviour to your self.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Frem's entire post
Sweet.... figured it was out there already or it was comming soon. Ima have to get me some of that. Sure the price is uber high right now if I can find it though.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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I love you Cit. 
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Good for you. I don't hate you Jack, I just get fed up with the way you conduct yourself sometimes.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Stuff like this.. ridiculous...
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07254/816402-153.stm
But there was something about this naggin the crap out of me last night, and I chewed on it mentally a while, and for my conscience, I gotta point this one out to ya.
Something y'all need to think about, and think hard, before you walk into something you may not be prepared for.
Thing is, one has to explore the legal and real world ramifications of what to do NEXT, if you should have your browncoat lined with the stuff like mine is.
Now mind you, I have a valid excuse, given my employment, you understand, that and a somewhat battered second-chance IIA which serves dual purpose as crash protection as well as defensively, not to mention it gets freakin COLD up here and my skinny ass can use the extra layers.
But what you need to think about, is that when officer unfriendly hands out the zap, and you DON'T go down - he's gonna escalate it.
Are you prepared for that ?
What do you mean to do ABOUT it ?
Look, even if you are wholly in the right, legally and from a self-defense standpoint, if you cap an officer, even one bent on your imminent homicide, the rest of the force WILL do their level best to kill you, and even if they don't you can be absolutely assured that you'll be beaten bloody and thrown in the tank for further abuse, or relegated to a nice private cell you can "commit suicide" in.
IF you survive that, you're still looking down the twin barrels of continual harrassment (see also: Brent Darrow)
http://nwi.com/interact/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18674
And massive legal bills, bail, and quite possibly asset forfeiture if they wanna play hardball.
(see also: Dean Koontz: Dark Rivers of the Heart)
And if, by some miracle chance you come out the other end in one piece, still employed with a survivable income, you'll still have to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life.
The best answer to it is what Me, Leadb, Anthony and many others are saying, is to address and correct the issue before it comes to do or die.
It's all well and good to ponder applying such a thing defensively, but you better damned well consider the whole picture and potential ramifications in advance rather than being caught out like a deer in the headlights with a police 9mm para headed for your center of mass.
Just sayin, think it THROUGH before you DO, ok ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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That's a great message Frem, and certainly one that I didn't consider before you posted it. Thanks for the warning.
Still, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have this type of protection under your sleeve, or shirt as it were, when that rapist or mugger gets his hands on one of these things. Good point somebody (maybe you) made above that criminals are probably even more likely to use this than a gun because you can't fight back while they gank your shit and they're under the belief that you won't die from the tazer so they won't get an attempted murder rap should they be apprehended. "A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:Calm down man. I wasn't badmouthing your country, if you notice what I wrote, I was bad mouthing your government, not your country. Also what I said was more flippant than anything else, how you read into it to the point that I was talking down to you is beyond me, it certainly wasn't as it was meant. However, frankly the US governments international meddling is at least on a par with the UN's, so it seems a mite unfair to be trashing the UN, then demanding an appology for pointing out the US governments own faults in that area.
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Citizen:
After having read some of your posts I will readily concede that you are ________ more intelligent and articulate than myself. Having said that, If you chose to talk down to me, or badmouth my country again, I promise name calling will in-sue.
Edited:(removed probably)
I don't know were you got the idea I was asking for an apology. I was simply making an idle threat(because that's what we do). Your response was interesting. I had no idea that there are people who hold such allegiance to the UN. Where I come from its pretty safe to trash the UN, and the French of coarse(pre-Sarkozy). Another thing that is confusing to me is why you would think it's better to trash the US government. I'm sure your aware that the US is a Democratic Republic and therefore the people and the government are equally culpable for any misdeeds.
I also took the time to read more of your posts and as a result have edited the "probably" from my previous post.
"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"
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Quote:Yeah, I realised it was an imperfect statement when I made it.
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I don't know were you got the idea I was asking for an apology. I was simply making an idol threat(because that's what we do).
Quote:I don't hold allegiance to the UN, I do however think it's unfair to trash the UN for causing pain and suffering through it's meddling, when it's not particularly extraordinary in that regard. Yeah, I picked on the US somewhat, perhaps unfairly but I think it's a valid comparison. I could pick on France, Russia, or the UK as easily. How many have died in the US/Russia cold war interventions? How many died when France just couldn't accept that it's imperial rule in Indochina was over and continued to fight on in the region? How many died when that conflict morphed into a cold war game between the US and Russia? Afghanistan in the 80's?
Your response was interesting. I had no idea that there are people who hold such allegiance to the UN.
In the wash, I think the world has been somewhat improved for the UN. Perhaps they could have done more with Malaria, but it's hardly their meddling that caused Malaria, the UN's intervention, if anything had a positive impact on the situation.
Quote:Indeed, and I tend to hold myself accountable for the actions of my government to some degree. But I don't think it's fair to characterise a criticism of the US Government or its foreign policy as an attack on the American people, it's country or it's ideals. It's how genuine criticism gets characterised as anti-Americanism. I in fact have no love for most of the US governments foreign policy, but I don't necessarily think that reflects on to the American people.
Another thing that is confusing to me is why you would think it's better to trash the US government. I'm sure your aware that the US is a Democratic Republic and therefore the people and the government are equally culpable for any misdeeds.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Indeed, and I tend to hold myself accountable for the actions of my government to some degree. But I don't think it's fair to characterise a criticism of the US Government or its foreign policy as an attack on the American people, it's country or it's ideals. It's how genuine criticism gets characterised as anti-Americanism. I in fact have no love for most of the US governments foreign policy, but I don't necessarily think that reflects on to the American people.
Wow.... say it isn't so. An entire paragraph came of your fingertips Citizen that not only do I not have a problem with any of it, but I actually strongly parallell that viewpoint.
I'm in such shock and awe now that I won't even mention my hatered for the UN this post.... well, twice anyhow.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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