Breaking news - Obama admin will NOT press charges of 'TORTURE' on CIA agents.

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Thursday, April 23, 2009 21:59
VIEWED: 6042
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AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 6:57 PM

Not going forward w/ the case.

Huh.

Far easier to throw stones from outside the house than it is to sit in the big chair and make big boy decisions, huh Barry ?

Quote:
No charges against CIA officials for waterboarding
By JENNIFER LOVEN and DEVLIN BARRETT – 10 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration on Thursday informed CIA officials who used waterboarding and other harsh interrogation tactics on terror suspects that they will not be prosecuted, senior administration officials told The Associated Press.
Even before President Barack Obama took office in January, aides signaled his administration was not likely to bring criminal charges against CIA employees for their roles in the secret, coercive terrorist interrogation program. It had been deemed legal at the time through opinions issued by the Justice Department under the Bush administration.
But the statement being issued Thursday by Attorney General Eric Holder, the nation's chief law enforcement officer, is the first definitive assurance that those CIA officials are in the clear, as long as their actions were in line with the legal advice at the time.
The officials spoke about the Holder statement ahead of its release on condition of anonymity, so as not to pre-empt the attorney general.
The CIA has acknowledged using waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning, on three high-level terror detainees in 2002 and 2003, with the permission of the White House and the Justice Department. Former CIA Director Michael Hayden said waterboarding has not been used since, but some human rights groups have urged Obama to hold CIA employees accountable for what they, and many Obama officials and others around the world, say was torture.
The Holder statement was being issued by the Justice Department along with the release of four significant Bush-era legal opinions governing — in graphic and extensive detail — the interrogation of terror detainees, the officials said. One of the memos was produced by the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel in August 2002, the other three in 2005.
The memos, released to meet a court-approved deadline in a lawsuit against the government in New York by the American Civil Liberties Union, detail the dozen harsh techniques approved for use by CIA interrogators, the officials said. A statement from Obama was also being released along with Holder's comments and the documents.
One memo specifically authorized a method for combining multiple techniques, a practice human rights advocates argue is particularly harmful and crosses the line into torture even if any of the individual methods do not.
The Obama administration last month released nine legal memos related to the interrogation program, and probably will release more as the lawsuit proceeds. But the four released Thursday represent the fullest accounting by the government of the methods authorized and used, and is the complete list, the officials said.
There is very little redaction, or blacking out, of detail in the memos, the officials said.
The methods include keeping detainees naked for long periods, keeping them in a painful standing position for long periods, and depriving them of solid food. Other tactics included using a plastic neck collar to slam detainees into walls, keeping the detainee's cell cold for long periods, and beating and kicking the detainee. Sleep-deprivation, prolonged shackling, and threats to a detainee's family were also used.
Among the things not allowed in the memo were allowing a prisoner's body temperature or caloric intake to fall below a certain level, because either could cause permanent damage, the officials said.
The techniques were applied to 14 suspects considered very senior terrorists.
Many of the methods were detailed in a secret 2007 report by the International Committee of the Red Cross. The New York Review of Books recently obtained a copy of the report.
The ACLU suit has sought to use the Freedom of Information Act to shed light on the treatment of prisoners in U.S. custody abroad — even though the Bush

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AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:03 PM

Wow. After years and years of the Left screeching like a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs about TORTURE!!! , we're not gonna change a thing, it appears.

coolio

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:05 PM

Obama is starting to suck a little.
Oh well.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Obama is starting to suck a little.
Oh well.

The laughing Chrisisall

Does this not give you one moment for pause ? Maybe, that if even if Mr Obamarrific himself won't pursue charges on the issue of torture, that maybe, JUST maybe, Bush and Cheney weren't as evil as the Left had tried to paint?

Such revelations are painful, I know, but try to face the man in the mirror and say.... " What if I was wrong ?"

Be brave, young Jedi. Be very brave.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Does this not give you one moment for pause ? Maybe, that if even if Mr Obamarrific himself won't pursue charges on the issue of torture, that maybe, JUST maybe, Bush and Cheney weren't as evil as the Left had tried to paint?

No, Mr. Genius, it means that Obama is playing the Washington Game by the rules.
Status Quo we can believe in.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:19 PM

There are 4 lights, Chris.

4.

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Does this not give you one moment for pause ? Maybe, that if even if Mr Obamarrific himself won't pursue charges on the issue of torture, that maybe, JUST maybe, Bush and Cheney weren't as evil as the Left had tried to paint?

Does the fact that he's just carrying on like Bush not make you like him more?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Does the fact that he's just carrying on like Bush not make you like him more?

No, AU still hates him because he talks like a Socialist.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:29 PM

A honest question from CITIZEN ?

Pinch me.

What's to like ? There's a REASON why he's carrying on , just like Bush, on this matter. While Mr Obamarrific has no problems making SWEEPING changes in most other areas of Government, he's sorta changed his tune on such matters on how to treat terrorist. Sure, we might not call them that any more, but we'll sure TREAT them the same.

We'll give concessions to Iran and N.Korea, but we'll still not pamper the Islamo terrorist. ]

I'd say why doesn't that give YOU pause to think on for a while ? So many across the board changes, in all areas, yet THIS one remains the same? Don't seem quite right, do it ?

Guess things weren't as bad as some others , politically motivated as they were, had claimed.

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Does the fact that he's just carrying on like Bush not make you like him more?
No, AU still hates him because he talks like a Socialist.

Really? I thought it had something to do with the D...

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I'd say why doesn't that give YOU pause to think on for a while ? So many across the board changes, in all areas, yet THIS one remains the same? Don't seem quite right, do it ?

When the wind blows & it makes that whistling sound between your ears, do peeps look at you funny that you notice?

The laughing Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
A honest question from CITIZEN ?

Pinch me.

What's to like ? There's a REASON why he's carrying on , just like Bush, on this matter. While Mr Obamarrific has no problems making SWEEPING changes in most other areas of Government, he's sorta changed his tune on such matters on how to treat terrorist. Sure, we might not call them that any more, but we'll sure TREAT them the same.

We'll give concessions to Iran and N.Korea, but we'll still not pamper the Islamo terrorist. ]

I'd say why doesn't that give YOU pause to think on for a while ? So many across the board changes, in all areas, yet THIS one remains the same? Don't seem quite right, do it ?

Guess things weren't as bad as some others , politically motivated as they were, had claimed.

I don't see why the President of the United States being pro torture should say anything about me, regardless of his US political party. Extraordinary Rendition, and Britain's part in it is being debated in the Commons right now. I'm having enough trouble getting to work through one group of terrorists (Tamils) protesting about the actions of another (Sri Lankan Government).

Keeping Guantanamo open, continuing to torture people regardless of who they are is pretty shameful.

Though as far as I knew, hadn't Obama committed to the closure of Guantanamo, and now it was a question of logistics?

KWICKO

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:33 PM

Quote:

We'll give concessions to Iran and N.Korea, but we'll still not pamper the Islamo terrorist.

I still have no idea which particular person you're referring to when you talk about "the terrorist". Who? Which one? And you've never answered the question of why you're SOOOOOO afraid of one lone terrorist. You cower under your bed, you live in mortal fear - and we find out it's all about ONE PERSON who's scaring you so much?!

To quote Stewie Griffin:

"What the DEUCE?!"

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:46 PM

Quote:
I don't see why the President of the United States being pro torture should say anything about me, regardless of his US political party.

So simple and yet I have to spell it out for you

THERE NEVER WAS ANY "PRO TORTURE" attitudes to be FOR in the first place. I was all a bunch of lies and, quite frankly - BULLSHIT , made up by those who hate Bush, hate America, and echoed in the biased Left wing MSM. That's the hard, cruel reality that so many of you folks are going to have to face, eventually.

Seems hard to believe at first, but it's the truth.

The Earth goes around the Sun, not t'other way round.

Darth Vader is Luke's father.

Lois Einhorn was Ray Finkel

Maggie shot Mr Burns

There were 4 lights.

Bush was right.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

THERE NEVER WAS ANY "PRO TORTURE" attitudes to be FOR in the first place. I was all a bunch of lies and, quite frankly - BULLSHIT , made up by those who hate Bush

Better put on some lipstick if you're gonna be the Queen of Denial, bro.

The laughing Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So simple and yet I have to spell it out for you

THERE NEVER WAS ANY "PRO TORTURE" attitudes to be FOR in the first place. I was all a bunch of lies and, quite frankly - BULLSHIT , made up by those who hate Bush, hate America, and echoed in the biased Left wing MSM. That's the hard, cruel reality that so many of you folks are going to have to face, eventually.

Seems hard to believe at first, but it's the truth.

So simple and yet I have to spell it out for you:

THERE WAS "PRO TORTURE" attitudes. They used torture and then legitimised it by saying "it's not torture, and it's ok because they're illegal combatants, not people". Using the whole letter of the law to defeat the purpose of the law thing. Like how in South Park the movie canadians weren't sent to 'death camps' they were 'happy camps'.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

THERE NEVER WAS ANY "PRO TORTURE" attitudes to be FOR in the first place. I was all a bunch of lies and, quite frankly - BULLSHIT , made up by those who hate Bush
Better put on some lipstick if you're gonna be the Queen of Denial, bro.

The laughing Chrisisall

I'll have to wait my turn. SHE'S got the lipstick at the moment.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:57 PM

'RAppo is visiting Fantasy Island now, Cit. Best leave him be.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:01 PM

Heh... Southpark, the Movie. Funny! But the analogy of cut out cartoon figures on film as being anything remotely close to 'real' is famously appropriate.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
'RAppo is visiting Fantasy Island now, Cit. Best leave him be.

The laughing Chrisisall

Dude, just admit defeat, gather your bra and panties, and call it a day.

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Heh... Southpark, the Movie. Funny! But the analogy of cut out cartoon figures on film as being anything remotely close to 'real' is famously appropriate.

They were parodying things. Satire. You might have heard of it.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Dude, just admit defeat, gather your bra and panties, and call it a day.

More delightful anti-female remarks.
Wonder why your Mom is the only woman you've ever kissed?

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:07 PM

Well, I didn't want to tell you about YOUR mom.

" That's why I never kiss'em in the mouth "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:08 PM

..and how is collecting your bra and panties in the least bit derogatory ? Unless YOU deem it to be so ?

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:10 PM

Oh, gosh, are we going THERE, Au? *yawn*

Just because your sense of right & wrong is WAAAAY more flexible than mine is ain't a reason to gloat.

The laughing Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:12 PM

I was going to ask you to leave bestiality out of it.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
..and how is collecting your bra and panties in the least bit derogatory ? Unless YOU deem it to be so ?

You attribute female traits and/or accoutrements to that which you are putting down, hence the misogyny.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I was going to ask you to leave bestiality out of it.

That's what I'm sayin': I just can't see AU with human females.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I was going to ask you to leave bestiality out of it.

Don't talk about Chris's mom that way! How dare you!

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Oh, gosh, are we going THERE, Au? *yawn*

You already went there, I just followed.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

You already went there, I just followed.

Follow the Coyote, please.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:28 PM

Yeah, nice try.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, nice try.

I schooled you, boy.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 16, 2009 10:40 PM

No, you only think you did. But just like Obama agreeing w/ Bush on the matter of "torture" ( there was none ) , you are WRONG.

ASARIAN

Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Does this not give you one moment for pause ? Maybe, that if even if Mr Obamarrific himself won't pursue charges on the issue of torture, that maybe, JUST maybe, Bush and Cheney weren't as evil as the Left had tried to paint?

No, Mr. Genius, it means that Obama is playing the Washington Game by the rules.

Two years ago already I had a very smart lawyer friend of mine in the States enumerate all impeachable and/or felonious offences committed by Bush and his cronies (like Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, etc.) The list was long: VERY long. Problem only is, that going after each and every one of these crimes is -- way it was explained to me -- pretty much deemed undoable within the Democratic party. Republicans have cashey money, so they'd likely stall the process for as long as they could, appeal after appeal; well over the 4-years barrier, at least. And then you basically just spent 4 years engaged in witchhunt-looking stuff, insteading of building up the country again. Not so good for votes.

Waterboarding, while reprehensible, was considered legal under, and sanctioned by, Bush and his administration. So, to go after these folks who did the actual boarding inevitably means also prosecuting way up the chain (as their attorneys will no doubt say their actions were approved by the brass). And I rightfully think that's not feasible; not politically, at least. So, the gnashing of my teeth despite, seems you Republicans got a few freebies. Enjoy them: the world is entirely more vigilent to your shenanigans, come next round.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:48 PM

PLEASE ENTER RAPO'S FACT-FREE ZONE. WATCH YOUR HEAD:

Quote:
What's to like ? There's a REASON why he's carrying on , just like Bush, on this matter. While Mr Obamarrific has no problems making SWEEPING changes in most other areas of Government, he's sorta changed his tune on such matters on how to treat terrorist. Sure, we might not call them that any more, but we'll sure TREAT them the same.

ACTUALLY, rapo, he's NOT "carrying on". He has ALREADY rescinded Bush's policy about "aggressive interrogation techniques" and no decision has been made as to whether it constitutes torture or not.

I believe the decision was made on the rationale that the CIA operatives were following the legal advice of the Bush Administration (following orders in other words). HOWEVER- if CIA operatives were found to have EXCEEDED the subject memos they WILL be prosecuted.

No, what REALLY sucks is Obama's claim to "state secrets" on the widespread wiretapping case currently before the courts. And the new FISA bill, which Dems rolled on in deference to pissy-pants like YOU, which allows widespread eavesdropping without warrants/ court review.

Man, I hope they tap the phones of all of those right-wing nut-jobs who "thought" that breach of rights would only apply to "others"... and then land them in some distant foreign country's jail where they will be detained without charges while being "aggressively interrogated". Maybe they'll come out with a greater appreciation for what "rule of law" means.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Friday, April 17, 2009 12:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, you only think you did. But just like Obama agreeing w/ Bush on the matter of "torture" ( there was none ) , you are WRONG.

I don't think that came out AT ALL like you hoped it would. What you just to Chris is, "like Obama agreeing with Bush on torture, you are WRONG."

Might want to see to that.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Friday, April 17, 2009 12:09 AM

Quote:

Man, I hope they tap the phones of all of those right-wing nut-jobs who "thought" that breach of rights would only apply to "others"... and then land them in some distant foreign country's jail where they will be detained without charges while being "aggressively interrogated". Maybe they'll come out with a greater appreciation for what "rule of law" means.

Yup - when they take a few of those right-wing extremists they're on the lookout for, and torture them, I'm sure 'Rappy the Wonder Dog will still see no problem there. Until they come for him, of course.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

Waterboarding, while reprehensible, was considered legal under, and sanctioned by, Bush and his administration. So, to go after these folks who did the actual boarding inevitably means also prosecuting way up the chain (as their attorneys will no doubt say their actions were approved by the brass). And I rightfully think that's not feasible; not politically, at least. So, the gnashing of my teeth despite, seems you Republicans got a few freebies.

Yeah, I must agree. You can't really go after the peeps who did what was legally asked of them, but by God(s), I wish the peeps who CALLED these actions legal could be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Sadly, the golden rule applies here.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:14 PM

Quote:
if CIA operatives were found to have EXCEEDED the subject memos they WILL be prosecuted.

Fine by me. That's only what should be done.

The biggest problem I have w/ them tapping MY phones is that I'm not worth their time, and they could be spending it tracking down some Achkmed or William Ayers who really DOES have a history of blowing things up.

Funny. Ayres really WAS a terrorist, and the media barely thought it worth a mention. Meanwhile, MILLIONS of Americans who really are freedom loving believers in the U.S. constitution are now targeted by the Government in a PURELY political move, and you folks think that turn about is fair play, or that this is even remotely o.k. ?

Your irrational anger and pointless hatred has clearly unhinged you.

AURAPTOR

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Yup - when they take a few of those right-wing extremists they're on the lookout for, and torture them, I'm sure 'Rappy the Wonder Dog will still see no problem there. Until they come for him, of course.

Mike

Then you'll be exactly like the terrorist who we've been fighting against, and the exact opposite of what the Bush administration has been for all these yrs. Again, funny, because I've never called for any of you assholes to be water boarded based on your POLITICAL VIEWS, but that is EXACTLY what you're promoting here. Just like the Taliban. Don't AGREE with them, TORTURE!!

yep. That's right. I used the word 'assholes'. Because you deserved it. I've been insult free for a while now, even in the face of some of the most ridiculous and mindless vile hurled my way, trying to have more reasoned, mature and productive discussions on this board. But you on the Left simply won't have any of it. It simply is beyond your capability.

Sig feigned civility for a while, but then broke down. Started saying shit like anyone who thinks as I do must be either brain washed or mentally challenged. It's called individual thought, you purple belly.

River also made it a week w/ out hurling any insults, but that's only because she was " on a trip to New York ! " , and couldn't respond. Didn't take long for her true nature to rear it's hideous head, for all to see. The less we see of that, the better.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:29 PM

Let's start with this:

Quote:
Your irrational anger and pointless hatred has clearly unhinged you.

I wasn't the one making the fact-free statement that Obama was "carrying on" rapo. I wasn't surprised by 9-11. I wasn't for invading Iraq, because I was willing for WMD FACTS to be gathered. I wasn't the one cheerleading the economy over a cliff's edge.

AND, I was against the Patriot Act and the revised FISA law because I knew it would lead to these EXACT excesses. My so-called "irrational" hatred has been directed against policies which proved, in the end, to have been pretty horrible. So how "irrational" is that?

So, let's get to the other part of your post:

Quote:
Meanwhile, MILLIONS of Americans who really are freedom loving believers in the U.S. constitution are now targeted by the Government in a PURELY political move, and you folks think that turn about is fair play, or that this is even remotely o.k. ?

Before I answer that question, tell me: Are you claiming that people weren't being spied on and targeted for purely political reasons during the Bush administration?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I've been insult free for a while now, even in the face of some of the most ridiculous and mindless vile hurled my way

Getting hit with vile is no fun, certainly.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:38 PM

There was nothing remotely 'fact free' about my statement.

He's not prosecuting anything, thus he's CARRYING ON. Doesn't mean he's carrying on with the same policy, but that he's not doing anything in a legal sense of the matter. That matter is / should be cleared up.

We gathered 10 yrs of WMD facts, along w/broken promises, failed agreements, and a host of mass graves and REAL torture rooms run by Saddam. Iraq , for so many reasons, was a noble cause.

No one, save for Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Rahm Emanuel was 'cheering ' the economy over a cliff. Wow.....and YOU talk about others being 'fact free' ?? Classic!!!

Yes, I'm absolutely stating that, until you offer any proof, or any Dept. fo Homeland Security type memos which targeted LEFT wing 'radicals' as the Right was , then you have nothing but your irrational fear paranoia and hatred for Bush on your side. Of which, I care NOTHING.

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
MILLIONS of Americans who really are freedom loving believers in the U.S. constitution are now targeted by the Government in a PURELY political move, and you folks think that turn about is fair play, or that this is even remotely o.k. ?

So what? Their wasting time & money on different political targets, what's so new? That's what governments are for, NO?

Paddy cake
paddy cake
Barry's turn,
Tap AU's phone
as fast as you can!

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
until you offer any proof, or any Dept. fo Homeland Security type memos which targeted LEFT wing 'radicals' as the Right was , then you have nothing but your irrational fear paranoia and hatred for Bush on your side.

Waste of time. No proof is enough for you, sir.
Enjoy caring nothing.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
MILLIONS of Americans who really are freedom loving believers in the U.S. constitution are now targeted by the Government in a PURELY political move, and you folks think that turn about is fair play, or that this is even remotely o.k. ?

So what? Their wasting time & money on different political targets, what's so new? That's what governments are for, NO?

The laughing Chrisisall

So, you equate al Qaeda and Muslim funded terrorist wanting to blow up malls, tunnels, large sky scrapers to folks who are upset about illegal immigration?

All we heard from the Left is hate filled bullshit about how thier rights were being erased, but no one ever got thrown in jail for SAYING any such nonsense. Now, we have D.H.S. ( same initials as my High School, btw...that's kinda funny ) issuing a report on pure POLITICAL speech and thought, and even accusing OUR OWN SOLDIERS of being potential enemies of the state.

Folks, this is NOT a road you want to walk down.

AURAPTOR

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
until you offer any proof, or any Dept. fo Homeland Security type memos which targeted LEFT wing 'radicals' as the Right was , then you have nothing but your irrational fear paranoia and hatred for Bush on your side.
Waste of time. No proof is enough for you, sir.
Enjoy caring nothing.

The laughing Chrisisall

Hey dickhead, I said ANY proof. Either you have some, or you don't. If you don't, then your entire point is invalid.

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

So, you equate al Qaeda and Muslim funded terrorist wanting to blow up malls, tunnels, large sky scrapers to folks who are upset about illegal immigration?

Yes, yes I do, clearly.
We must apprehend & waterboard (but not torture) all such peeps.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Hey dickhead, I said ANY proof.

OOoooo, I detect a little "caring" in there....

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, April 17, 2009 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Hey dickhead, I said ANY proof.
OOoooo, I detect a little "caring" in there....

The laughing Chrisisall

But still no proof. As usual.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 17, 2009 2:03 PM

Quote:
There was nothing remotely 'fact free' about my statement.

What YOU said was

Quote:
What's to like ? There's a REASON why he's carrying on , just like Bush, on this matter. While Mr Obamarrific has no problems making SWEEPING changes in most other areas of Government, he's sorta changed his tune on such matters on how to treat terrorist. Sure, we might not call them that any more, but we'll sure TREAT them the same. ... I'd say why doesn't that give YOU pause to think on for a while ? So many across the board changes, in all areas, yet THIS one remains the same?

What YOU said was- Obama will continue to treat terrorists the same as Bush. That's not true- No, he will not. He let CIA officers off the hook for PAST actions, but has changed the policy on FUTURE actions. Please don't go making more fact-free statements trying to convince people that you didn't say what you QUITE CLEARLY said. Or... yeah, what the hell. Go ahead and tell us all how you didn't really mean what you said!

Quote:
We gathered 10 yrs of WMD facts, along w/broken promises, failed agreements, and a host of mass graves and REAL torture rooms run by Saddam. Iraq , for so many reasons, was a noble cause.

So we went into Iraq because Saddam was a tyrant? That's news to me! 'Cause I thought Bush's' rationale was that Iraq was an "imminent threat" to our security. Too bad neither he nor you could wait to find out if that was really the case! Too bad that we had so many people killed, spent so much money, and destabilized a nation (and prolly created a failed state) for an imminent threat that didn't exist! But, your cause was noble!

Quote:
No one, save for Barney Frank, Chris Dodd and Rahm Emanuel was 'cheering ' the economy over a cliff.

Rapo, there you go again! How do you explain that the British real estate market ... which BTW Dodd and Frank had no power over, being out-of-power Dems in the Republican-dominated USA political system- ALSO collapsed? And that this contagion spread across the whole world? Oh, that's right... you don't. It's all about Dodd and Frank! In YOUR mind the whole world revolves around them! In fact, I think YOU revolve around them!

Quote:
Yes, I'm absolutely stating that, until you offer any proof, or any Dept. fo Homeland Security type memos which targeted LEFT wing 'radicals' as the Right was , then you have nothing but your irrational fear paranoia and hatred for Bush on your side.

The Right was??? Until YOU offer me "proof" that DHS is targeting conservatives for political reasons, I won't even bother to respond. I want NAMES. I want organizations. I want to see HOW they're being "spied on" and HOW they're being interfered with. "Cause so far, all you have is a memo saying that DHS should be alert to "extremists", and as far as I can tell NOTHING has actually happened yet. So far, it's only in your paranoid imagination that millions of conservatives are actually being spied on.

Quote:
talk about others being 'fact free' ??

No, not "others", rapo. You. Only you.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 2:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

But still no proof. As usual.

Dude, I require PAY for work that's not appreciated.

The laughing Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Friday, April 17, 2009 2:34 PM

So rappy, now that you've doubled back on yourself in this thread, are ya gonna slink away?

Not like THAT'S ever happened before!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

HERO

Friday, April 17, 2009 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Waterboarding, while reprehensible, was considered legal under, and sanctioned by, Bush and his administration. So, to go after these folks who did the actual boarding inevitably means also prosecuting way up the chain (as their attorneys will no doubt say their actions were approved by the brass). And I rightfully think that's not feasible; not politically, at least. So, the gnashing of my teeth despite, seems you Republicans got a few freebies. Enjoy them: the world is entirely more vigilent to your shenanigans, come next round.

The problem with this discussion and this issue is that you folks, on both sides, are confusing the ethical/moral question with the legal question.

Legally, what was done was not torture, or if it was...it was NOT illegal. Thus there can be no charges for criminal wrongdoing by anyone at any level for these acts.

These acts also created ethical/moral problems on which people can reasonably disagree. Some people see this as ok, and they could be right. Some see it as wrong...and they could be right. I think they are both right...these things are morally wrong, but could be necessary under the circumstances in these cases.

If a person has intellegence which could be used to stop future attacks and save lives then I believe we should secure their cooperation by any reasonable means. What is reasonable? Discomfort...yes, waterboarding...maybe, genital electrocution...no (except PirateNews, Osama, and anyone who has sex with OctoMom).

This problem is easily remedied. Just outlaw this sort of stuff. Make it absolutely illegal to torture, waterboard, etc. Then, as soon as the cameras are off sign a stack of undated pardon forms to slip under the interrogators office door.

In other words...make it illegal, immoral, unethical, etc...but still allow the folks to do what they gotta do to get what we need...a solution that has the added benefit of being entirely keeping with the express powers of the Constitution.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

CHRISISALL

Friday, April 17, 2009 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
make it illegal, immoral, unethical, etc...but still allow the folks to do what they gotta do to get what we need...a solution that has the added benefit of being entirely keeping with the express powers of the Constitution.

Yep. Bush tried to mess with tradition.

The laughing Chrisisall

ANTHONYT

Friday, April 17, 2009 4:19 PM

Hello,

I do not buy into arguments by Obama detractors/Bush supporters that this action proves that Torture wasn't Torture.

I do not buy into arguments by a myriad of confused souls that this action proves that there is no difference between Bush and Obama.

What I do buy is that this action is a promise to future lawbreakers that it's okay to break the law and violate basic human rights, so long as you are under orders to do so.

The Nuremberg trials were meant to establish the opposite premise - that saying 'I was under orders' is NOT a defense to misconduct. But apparently such precedents are now passe'.

This is the second time (in my opinion) that Obama has failed to do something that he SHOULD be doing. I am not particularly angry at the man when he talks about an Assault Weapons Ban, because I understood that his thinking was flawed in that regard. It was an evil I accepted when I cast my vote for the 'lesser evil.'

What sits bitterly in my mouth is when Obama fails to do something that his own morality should compel him to do. Democrats, Liberals, these are the people I rely on to preserve MOST of the Bill of Rights. Save that niggling Second Amendment.

But Obama let the telecommunication spying go unanswered, and now he's let torture go unanswered.

No, he does not earn guilt for Bush's actions when he makes this misstep. Rather, he earns guilt for all future violators. Because now he has broadcast the message, "Whatever your Chief says is okay. Do not hesitate in the performance of your duty."

Which is, like, the opposite of what I envision the American ideal to be.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

SIGNYM

Friday, April 17, 2009 5:30 PM

Meanwhile, rappy has decided that since he scorched himself with his own lack of facts and simple logic, he's gonna scurry away..

Nice going, dooood! buh bye!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

DREAMINGBEGGAR

Friday, April 17, 2009 7:39 PM

Hello,
I don't post here often (or ever, for that matter) but this caught my eye:

"Yes, I'm absolutely stating that, until you offer any proof, or any Dept. fo Homeland Security type memos which targeted LEFT wing 'radicals' as the Right was , then you have nothing but your irrational fear paranoia and hatred for Bush on your side. Of which, I care NOTHING."

From FOXnews' website (Not my favorite source of news, but I suppose one must at times hop the gutter to cross the street):

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Leftwing_Extremist_Threat.pdf

The report itself was released on the 26th of January after Obama took office, but I can only summise that the research which went into it (as well as the development of the "Leftwing Extremist" category) was conducted during the Bush administration. I'll leave further comments for the rest of you and disappear back into the murky depths of the internet. (And please excuse this detour from the thread's intended topic).

Cheers!
-Dreamingbeggar

AURAPTOR

Saturday, April 18, 2009 12:17 AM

Sig

Terrorist still at Gitmo. No CIA agents are being charged for 'torture' crimes. Trust me, those guys will be treated exactly the same. Why ? Because they weren't MIStreated in the 1st place.

Yes, the domino effect carried over the world. Still, that's not what you said. You said folks were CHEERING this economy over a cliff. Never happened. Unless you mean by some on this board, who claimed it'll soon be like 1929 !!

Bush never said 'imminent threat', but keep lying, all god dman day long. I'm use to it. And I've about fucking had it w/ your " why did we go into Iraq ?" bullshit. No question in the history of human civilization has been asked, and answered more than that one question. MOVE THE HELL ON!!!

Barney Frank and Chris Dodd DID have power, and you need to take a refresher course in Civics, 101.

The D.H.S.'s memo that's been all over the news this week, hon. Google it, if you're really that dense.

You're the one who is fact free. I'm all facts, all the time. You just hate pretty much everything good, right, pure , free and decent. You're the ultimate USEFUL IDIOT!

RUE

Saturday, April 18, 2009 12:41 AM

"Terrorist still at Gitmo."

Just one ? Then much progress has been made !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Saturday, April 18, 2009 12:42 AM

Oh, yeah. And Rap ? You're delusional.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Saturday, April 18, 2009 2:49 AM

Quote:
You said folks were CHEERING this economy over a cliff.

No rappy, I said YOU were cheering the economy over a cliff. YOU were cheering on the policies that ran us into the ditch!

Quote:
Bush never said 'imminent threat'

In this day and age of videocams, this is a provable statement. Care to have this particular delusion squashed?

Quote:
Barney Frank and Chris Dodd DID have power, and you need to take a refresher course in Civics, 101.

Prove it. Show me how two guys who's party didn't control the committees, who couldn't either push legislation or prevent it if their life depended on it... SHOW ME WHAT THEY DID. Not what they "said"... anyone, everyone, can opine. Show me the committee minutes, the votes... ANYTHING that prove they did ANYTHING consequential during the Bush years. I double dog dare ya... 'cause I know you can't!

Quote:
The D.H.S.'s memo that's been all over the news this week, hon. Google it, if you're really that dense

Oh yeah, a memo. That PROVES that "millions of people are being spied one". I can't believe YOU'RE that dense.

Oh, wait... Yes, I can!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Oh, yeah. And Rap ? You're delusional.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

I'm right. You know it. You're just too full of false pride and partisan bullshit to admit it.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:18 AM

Never happened. I never cheered for the forcing of banks to give loans to folks who couldn't pay for them. Not once, not ever.

You made the claim, now you back it up. Bush said it ? Where?

You don't have to control the committees to affect the outcome of how things move through Congress.

I never said millions of folks were being SPIED on. I said they were made de facto enemies of the state, for no other reason than because of their POLITICS. Bush never did that. Ever.

SIGNYM

Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:25 AM

Quote:
Never happened. I never cheered for the forcing of banks to give loans to folks who couldn't pay for them. Not once, not ever.

Well, that wasn't what I was referring to. But since you brought it up... Show me that banks were "forced" to give loans to people who couldn't afford them. NOT that case from Chicago, which forced banks to treat blacks with equal credit histories and incomes same as whites.

Quote:
You made the claim, now you back it up. Bush said it ? Where?

I have cited the same article at least five times. Urgent threat. Mortal and growing threat. Imminent threat... ring any bells? Of course not. 'Cause you're all about the facts (snicker)

Quote:
You don't have to control the committees to affect the outcome of how things move through Congress.

Oh, you don't? How???

Quote:
I never said millions of folks were being SPIED on. I said they were made de facto enemies of the state, for no other reason than because of their POLITICS. Bush never did that. Ever.

What you said was

Quote:
Meanwhile, MILLIONS of Americans who really are freedom loving believers in the U.S. constitution are now targeted by the Government in a PURELY political move, and you folks think that turn about is fair play, or that this is even remotely o.k. ?

Oh, targeted? Enemies of the state*? Who? How? Give me names. Give me organizations. Give me activities. Show me what the government has actually DONE. YOU want proof of how the government has targeted the left wing for purely political reasons? Well, you've been given names and actions. Now, you provide the same. Out of those "millions" of Americans, surely you can find a couple dozen names, a witness or two... You're all about the facts, right? Come up with some!

Oh, and I forgot to address this:

Quote:
Trust me those guys will be treated exactly the same. Why ? Because they weren't MIStreated in the 1st place.

Everything in that post is sheer supposition. Not a fact to be found anywhere. I know, 'cause I looked! It's funny, you take one comment in a memo directed at right-wing EXTREMISTS and blow it all the hell out of proportion to apply to "millions" of freedom-loving people being "enemies of the state" and yet you completely ignore a stated policy by Obama. Explain THAT, if you can, Mr-All -About-The-Facts!

heh heh heh

*An enemy of the state is a person accused of certain crimes against the state, such as treason.
Yes, clearly, millions of people have been formally accused of treason or sedition, and they're about to go on trial right now! QUICK, RAPPY! SET UP A LEGAL DEFENSE FUND! NOW, IF YOU COULD ONLY FIND SOMEONE TO DEFEND!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rappy, you're funny!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

SIGNYM

Saturday, April 18, 2009 6:19 PM

So rapo, I've decided that since YOU demand "proof" so often ("proof" that Bush said "imminent threat" "proof" there weren't current WMD in Iraq etc.) you should be held to YOUR standards.

So far, you have failed to back up your statements with credible, verifiable fact.

Which, as everyone knows, is what you're all about.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So rapo, I've decided that since YOU demand "proof" so often ("proof" that Bush said "imminent threat" "proof" there weren't current WMD in Iraq etc.) you should be held to YOUR standards.

I knew you'd come back w/ that sort of nonsensical reply. But you're overlooking a KEY elemeent here. Iraq was TRYING to keep their WMD a secret. What YOU'VE claimed isn't in the least bit any great secret. Either Bush said it, or he didn't. You've not shown where he DID say it, ergo......

Quote:
So far, you have failed to back up your statements with credible, verifiable fact.

That's my line to you. And you're STILL failing.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, April 18, 2009 9:14 PM

Sigy

Quote:

Excerpts from the Dept. of Homeland Security:

LEFTwing Extremism:
Current Economic and Political
Climate Fueling Resurgence in
Radicalization and Recruitment

LEFTwing extremists have capitalized on the election of a CONSERVATIVE president, and are focusing their efforts to recruit new
members, mobilize existing supporters, and broaden their scope and appeal
through propaganda, but they have not yet turned to attack planning.

Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are
attractive to LEFTtwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that LEFTwing
extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to
boost their violent capabilities.

Just how loud would the wailing and gnashing of teeth have been had the above report been leaked by the D.H.S. ???

You babbled on about WHO has been targeted ? I have, for one. Where ? READ -

Quote:
Over the past five years, various rightwing extremists, ... have adopted the immigration issue as a call to action, rallying point,
and recruiting tool.

So, wanting the Gov't to stem the tsunami of ILLEGAL immigrants now makes me an EXTREMIST ? Oh, it gets beter!

Quote:
Debates over appropriate immigration levels and enforcement policy
generally fall within the realm of protected political speech under the First Amendment,
but in some cases, anti-immigration or strident pro-enforcement fervor has been directed
against specific groups and has the potential to turn violent.

Gee, GENERALLY such debates are protected ?? That's nice of the D.H.S folks to at least acknowledge THAT part. But then, it goes on further to suggest that ENFORCING THE LAWS on specific groups ( like MAYBE such groups as MS-13, among a list of others ? ) has a potential for violence ?? Gee, we'd better not enforce the laws then, if things are going to get violent!

Try to better educate yourself with reading the document here
http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/up
loads/2009/04/hsa-rightwing-extremism-09-04-07.pdf

If you still have questions after, come look me up.

SIGNYM

Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:46 PM

Quote:
So rapo, I've decided that since YOU demand "proof" so often ("proof" that Bush said "imminent threat" "proof" there weren't current WMD in Iraq etc.) you should be held to YOUR standards.

Do you know an example when you see one? Apparently not! I wasn't restricting my comments to WMD, but to require that you prove ALL of your statements!

Quote:
I knew you'd come back w/ that sort of nonsensical reply.

What, requiring that you prove your statements? How is that nonsensical? Difficult, maybe, but you've made a lot of statements so... better get going! You've got a lot of ground to make up!

And, speaking of nonsensical...

Quote:
Iraq was TRYING to keep their WMD a secret

How do you keep something that DOESN'T EXIST a secret?

Which reminds me...

So, you don't have any proof that conservatives are being targeted? Or being called "enemies of the state?" No wiretaps? No indictments? No charges of treason? No interference in banking accounts? Nobody on the no-fly list? Nobody being called "un-American" in public? No death sentences for treason?

What a shame... for a second I thought you had a point!
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, April 18, 2009 11:07 PM

You're a complete and total troll. I'm sorry for having wasted my time w/ you Sig. My problem is that while I've been trying to have a sincere and honest dialog, you've been simply playing the contrarian, and making light of this entire message board exercise.

I gave you a specific example from the actual report, showed you what it says, and you simply want to believe what you want. "Screw the Facts ", that's your motto.
Nothing you post is in the least bit honest or sincere. If I said the sky was blue, you'd call it orange and then say I was a liar.

I'm done w/ this game.

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, April 19, 2009 12:23 AM

CIA torture exemption 'illegal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8006597.stm

Mr Obama has banned the use of controversial interrogation techniques

US President Barack Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA agents who used torture tactics is a violation of international law, a UN expert says.

The UN special rapporteur on torture, Manfred Nowak, says the US is bound under the UN Convention against Torture to prosecute those who engage in it.

Mr Obama released four "torture memos" outlining harsh interrogation methods sanctioned by the Bush administration.

Mr Nowak has called for an independent review and compensation for victims.

"The United States, like all other states that are part of the UN convention against torture, is committed to conducting criminal investigations of torture and to bringing all persons against whom there is sound evidence to court," Mr Nowak told the Austrian daily Der Standard.

The memos revealed by Mr Obama approved techniques including simulated drowning, week-long sleep deprivation, forced nudity, and the use of painful positions.

Torture trials

Mr Obama on Thursday said he would not prosecute under anti-torture laws CIA personnel who relied in good faith on Bush administration legal opinions issued after the 11 September attacks.

Insect: Harmless insect to be placed with suspect in 'confinement box', suspect to be told the insect would sting. Approved for Abu Zubaydah, but not used
Walling: Detainee slammed repeatedly into false wall to create sound and shock
Sleep deprivation: Detainee shackled stading up. Used often, once for 180 hours

Mr Nowak - who is due to travel to Washington to meet with officials - said that could be a mitigating factor, but does not absolve those involved.

"The fact that you carried out an order doesn't relieve you of your responsibility," he was quoted as saying by AP news agency.

Mr Nowak, an Austrian law professor, said US courts could still try those suspected of carrying out torture, as Mr Obama has not sought an amnesty law for affected CIA personnel.

He called for an investigation by an independent commission before suspects were tried and said it was important that all victims receive compensation.

Human rights groups have criticised President Obama's decision to protect CIA interrogators, saying charges were necessary to prevent future abuses and hold people accountable.

President Obama banned the use of the controversial interrogation techniques in his first week in office.

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

AURAPTOR

Sunday, April 19, 2009 1:17 AM

I assume the producers of FEAR FACTOR will be brought up on International Torture crimes by the end of next week, right ?

Right.

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, April 19, 2009 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I assume the producers of FEAR FACTOR will be brought up on International Torture crimes by the end of next week, right ?

Right.

While I am sure you would feel at home in a box of snakes, others would disagree

Besides aren't you the one saying " international law " and " UN " when you think it fits your positions... Now you are belittling these things when it doesn't?

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

ANTHONYT

Sunday, April 19, 2009 3:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I assume the producers of FEAR FACTOR will be brought up on International Torture crimes by the end of next week, right ?

Right.

Hello,

I assume contestants on Fear Factor volunteer for the procedures used, and have the option of leaving at any time.

Right?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

SIGNYM

Sunday, April 19, 2009 3:44 AM

Quote:
sincere and honest dialog

What, no proof for any of your points? Shoot, man, all I'm doing is what YOU do when you meet a fact you don't like: ask for proof. And, I promise, unlike YOU, if you come up with a bona-fide fact ... I'll actually take it into account.

Quote:
you've been simply playing the contrarian

No, I've simply been asking you to back up your paranoid statements about... well, a lot of things. Dodd and Frank. Saddam. The DHS. Obama.

I've got issues with some of the same peeps you do, but - unlike you- I feel that I actually have a reason. So far, all you've got is diddly.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

ASARIAN

Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:34 AM

See? Change HAS come to America! :)

http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/17/2254255

The Obama Administration is clearly much less tolerant towards these illegal activities than Bush was (of course, that should not come as a surprise, as Bush himself was a huge proponent of these abuses taking place).

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, April 19, 2009 9:23 AM

Obama's inaction is profoundly troubling. And at the same time, he seems to be a man who plays very dangerous games pretty well. He's got some serious limitations at this point in the game. You do not piss off the CIA, f'rinstance (ask JFK). You do not let the right wing turn the prosecution of war crimes into a political joke.

I can only hope now, that Obama is playing rope-a-dope again, as he did so deftly with Hillary in the campaign. Back then, he was criticized by all and sundry for not fighting back, for being too nice, for not calling Hills on her shit. But he didn't retaliate until she'd dug her hole so deep she couldn't climb out again, and even though he "went negative," he was largely given a pass because Hillary had already made such an ass of herself. It was brilliantly played, and won him the nomination. And when we all wanted him to take Palin apart, he never did. He just let her sputter and fall under the weight of her own incompetence.

He COULD be playing a similar game now. He could be waiting until the right moment, waiting until public opinion, world opinion is squarely on his side, giving him no choice but to do the right thing, because the last thing this country needs right now is a politicized battle over our right to torture our enemy du jour played out for all the world to see.

That's what all this would be about if he were really, really smart. I voted for him on the pretext that he was really, really smart. And I have yet to discover that he is not indeed really, really smart.

I freakin' hope that he's really, really smart.

God help us all, if he isn't.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

SHINYGOODGUY

Monday, April 20, 2009 11:07 AM

Well, this is a fine mess. But I look at it this way. To press charges on CIA officials for carrying out the Bush Agenda would open up a can of worms that maybe we really don't want to expose. That would mean possibly calling the former prez to the witness stand to testify as to who, what, when, where, etc. This would include Cheney (The Phantom Menace) and Rove (Darth Maul), as well as Rumsfeld (Count Dooku).

Is this the history that Bush was talking about before leaving office? Do we really want to do this and shine a spotlight on this ugly stage in American History? The eroding of our Constitutional rights, liberties and freedoms. The fear mongering, the torture (remember the torture). There's more to this than meets the eye.

SGG

Tawabawho?

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, April 20, 2009 4:28 PM

SGG, that's exactly what folk said after Nixon, which I feel indirectly lead to Kennedy eating a bullet, and DID in fact lead directly to the most recent Bush administration.

Look at the names, fer cryin out loud, Rumsfeld for example was one of the ones roadblocking the Church Committee, with the help of Shrubs daddy.

Every time we play the peace and forgiveness card, every time we let these fuckers slink back into the darkness instead of swingin from a rope, 12-15 years later, we go through this shit AGAIN, and pay even more dearly for it, and like waves crashing on a beach as the tide rises, each time brings us that much closer to final destruction of our nation and our people - and we never do manage to fully retake the ground we lose each time.

Do we never learn anything ?

I say we FINISH THE DAMN JOB, root em out, down to the last damn flunky, cause like roaches, if you don't get em all yer just wasting your time, and then try them for their crimes in a proper court of law, something they not give us the benefit of had they a chance - to show clear and proper the difference between us and them, and for the guilty ?

Well, if it's good enough for Saddam, it's good enough for them, right ?

Do you really want our children, and the children of our children, to live through the same kind of nightmare all over again after it's had a decade and more to fester ?

Do we really want to make the same mistake, AGAIN ?
I don't.
I say we finish the goddamn job, myself.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, April 20, 2009 4:38 PM

HKC ?

I believe Obama's probably takin Biden's advice regarding our off-leash alphabet goons, which is very likely what I commented on several times elsewhere, wait till things are firmly in hand, and the american public is distracted, and then paint the fucking walls with the bastards, nice and quietly, till they get the message about who's in charge.

I do suspect that'll be his undoing however, since the Democratic party never really was interested in stopping these abuses, lip-service aside - they didn't truly want to tighten up the leash, not one bit, they just wanted to be the ones holding it, I said as much time and time again, particularly before and even after the tide-turn in congress and them rolling over and playing dead despite running on a platform of promising to put a stop to this crap.

There's other wheels turning here though, which I can't go into just yet - but folks are fed up with that bunch of alphabet goons spending all their resources abusing their protectees to the point where they seem unwilling or unable to do their officially assigned job.

The tide WILL turn, history proves that beyond all doubt, and when it comes, it'll be a tsunami, for a fact.

I only hope that we as a nation and a people survive it's impact.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

SIGNYM

Monday, April 20, 2009 5:10 PM

rappy: I'll help you out a bit with those facts which seem to be so elusive for you:

1) It's not that Saddam kept his WMD secret. That's like hiding an Easter basket that doesn't exist. But I'll clarify your statement for you, which is more along the lines of what I THINK you wanted to say: He kept his WMD STATUS a secret. If you had said that, I would have agreed with ya!

2) Now, as far as targeting "conservatives" goes... I don't know if conservatives are being targeted. I rather doubt it. However, I wouldn't be surprised if extremists are being targeted... the kind that say "Let's kill all the wetbacks!" and "Let's get our guns and march on the White House!" (Which BTW is not protected speech).

What I find especially troubling is this:

Quote:
Times reporters James Risen and Eric Lichtblau -- who broke the story of the Bush administration's domestic spying program in December 2004 -- reported that "in recent months," the NSA has engaged in an "overcollection" of domestic communication, far exceeding the already broad legal limits Congress established when it passed legislation to legalize the Bush administration's warrantless surveillance program and granting immunity for the telecoms that enabled it. The same article reveals that in 2005 or 2006, the NSA attempted to wiretap an unidentified member of Congress, lending further credence to speculation earlier this year by Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.V., that he might have been spied on.

Once you support internal warrantless spying (as YOU did rappy) you have started down a very dangerous road. But I'm glad that you get to see the fruits of your choices within your lifetime. I just hope you learn that doesn't matter if its BUSH doing it, or Obama... although I doubt that you will EVER realize that ALL parties have to be held to the same standard of behavior.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 5:20 PM

Quote:
Originally (mis)posted by AuRaptor:

Then you'll be exactly like the terrorist who we've been fighting against

Again, I must ask: Which one? You keep stating that all this torture, all this fighting, all this invading and occupying, it's all due to ONE TERRORIST that we're fighting against. Which one? Which terrorist? Who's the bogeyman that's got you cowering under your little racecar bed?

Quote:
Again, funny, because I've never called for any of you assholes to be water boarded based on your POLITICAL VIEWS, but that is EXACTLY what you're promoting here. Just like the Taliban. Don't AGREE with them, TORTURE!!

Actually, you couldn't possibly be more wrong - as usual. If you'll look back at my past posts on the matter, for as long as you care to look back, you'll find that I've consistently been AGAINST torture! Why? Simple - because what your government will do to "terrorists" today, it will do to "citizens" tomorrow - unless someone calls them on it and stomps their collective head in over it.

What I've pointed out here is that it is YOU who has had NO PROBLEM AT ALL with torture, no matter who was involved or why, as long as it wasn't you or yours. But now that radical conservative fascists like you find themselves in the crosshairs, they're VERY concerned about unfair treatment. How very convenient for you and your brand of occasional patriots.

You didn't give two shits about the Constitution while your butt-buddy Bush was shitting all over it, but now you want to come begging ME to protect you and protect the Constitution - little realizing that that's EXACTLY what we've been trying to do for the last EIGHT FUCKING YEARS!

Quote:

yep. That's right. I used the word 'assholes'. Because you deserved it. I've been insult free for a while now, even in the face of some of the most ridiculous and mindless vile hurled my way, trying to have more reasoned, mature and productive discussions on this board. But you on the Left simply won't have any of it. It simply is beyond your capability.

Trust me, boy - I've been called much worse than an "asshole", and by a much better class of people than someone like you.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 5:40 PM

Quote:
Posted by AuRaptor:

Iraq , for so many reasons, was a noble cause.

Unfortunately for you and the Bush Administration, none of those were the reasons cited for invasion and occupation...

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I do not buy into arguments by Obama detractors/Bush supporters that this action proves that Torture wasn't Torture.

I do not buy into arguments by a myriad of confused souls that this action proves that there is no difference between Bush and Obama.

What I do buy is that this action is a promise to future lawbreakers that it's okay to break the law and violate basic human rights, so long as you are under orders to do so.

The Nuremberg trials were meant to establish the opposite premise - that saying 'I was under orders' is NOT a defense to misconduct. But apparently such precedents are now passe'.

This is the second time (in my opinion) that Obama has failed to do something that he SHOULD be doing. I am not particularly angry at the man when he talks about an Assault Weapons Ban, because I understood that his thinking was flawed in that regard. It was an evil I accepted when I cast my vote for the 'lesser evil.'

What sits bitterly in my mouth is when Obama fails to do something that his own morality should compel him to do. Democrats, Liberals, these are the people I rely on to preserve MOST of the Bill of Rights. Save that niggling Second Amendment.

But Obama let the telecommunication spying go unanswered, and now he's let torture go unanswered.

No, he does not earn guilt for Bush's actions when he makes this misstep. Rather, he earns guilt for all future violators. Because now he has broadcast the message, "Whatever your Chief says is okay. Do not hesitate in the performance of your duty."

Which is, like, the opposite of what I envision the American ideal to be.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Thank you for that, Anthony. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I find this action by Obama abhorrent, as I do his inaction on warrantless wiretapping. It deeply disappoints me.

However, what seemingly EVERYBODY seems to have missed here is that Obama has said he won't go after the interrogators themselves for doing what they were clearly told was legal for them to do. He has said nothing at all about whether or not he'll go after THOSE WHO GAVE THE ORDERS. So it IS conceivable that he could let the people go who actually tortured people, and nail those to the wall who wrote the memo telling them it was okay to do so.

Personally, I'll be disappointed if that's all he does, but heartened that he's doing SOMETHING about it at all.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

ANTHONYT

Monday, April 20, 2009 6:24 PM

Hello Kwicko,

This has not escaped me. But surely you know it takes even MORE will to go up the chain of command to the top than it does to off a few underlings?

If he doesn't have the will to prune the tree, I have no confidence in his ability to uproot it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

AURAPTOR

Monday, April 20, 2009 7:35 PM

Who exactly did the U.S. torture to cause the 9/11 attacks ?

Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

ANTHONYT

Monday, April 20, 2009 7:50 PM

Hello,

U.S. Torture is completely disconnected from any external event. There is no justification for torture. Regardless of circumstances.

Justified torture is for flawed heroes in spy fiction.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 9:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

Again, I ask: Which one?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 9:44 PM

Quote:

2) Now, as far as targeting "conservatives" goes... I don't know if conservatives are being targeted. I rather doubt it. However, I wouldn't be surprised if extremists are being targeted... the kind that say "Let's kill all the wetbacks!" and "Let's get our guns and march on the White House!" (Which BTW is not protected speech).

Or the kind that scream "Torture all the Achmeds!"

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello Kwicko,

This has not escaped me. But surely you know it takes even MORE will to go up the chain of command to the top than it does to off a few underlings?

If he doesn't have the will to prune the tree, I have no confidence in his ability to uproot it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

I hear ya, Anthony, I hear ya... And yes, I'm more than a little concerned about that. What REALLY concerns me is his "blanket amnesty" (in effect, if not in words) for the operatives involved. Hell, no negotiator, no interrogator, no detective, no cop out there worth his salt would throw away his trump card like that. Sure, you can offer to give the "little guy" a break, but only after he gives you the goods on the big fish up the river! To just come out and say that you're not going to pursue any case against the little fish tells the big fish they're in the clear, and that bugs the shit out of me.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 9:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Who exactly did the U.S. torture to cause the 9/11 attacks ?

Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

I think it goes back a bit further, to people like Bush I and Reagan...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

AURAPTOR

Monday, April 20, 2009 10:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

Again, I ask: Which one?

Why do you even reply if you're not interested in having a sincere debate of - ANYTHING ?

AURAPTOR

Monday, April 20, 2009 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Who exactly did the U.S. torture to cause the 9/11 attacks ?

Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

I think it goes back a bit further, to people like Bush I and Reagan...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Which is why Osama bin Ladin waited until 1998 to release his Fatwa / Jihad call of war on the West,and why CLINTON'S photo was what the terrorist were shooting at during a propaganda training video.

Yeah, Bush and Reagan.

You moron.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Must have been something Clinton did to really piss off the terrorist.

Again, I ask: Which one?

Why do you even reply if you're not interested in having a sincere debate of - ANYTHING ?

Oh, but I *AM* interested in having a debate. Just tell me which terrorist is supposed to be pissed off at us, which one we're supposed to be fighting. You're the one that keeps insisting that there is only ONE terrorist - why else would you continually use the singular when referring to "the terrorist"? I've pointed it out more than a few times (closer to a few dozen at this point), so I can only ascertain that you really do think we're fighting one single person, and he's the one who has you so scared you're hiding under your bed.

So I really am interested in having a sincere debate - Which terrorist is it that has you so frightened?

Or as an alternative subject, why is it that you are serially unable to learn the proper plural form of words which end in "-ist"?

Take your pick, and debate away, you blithering idiot.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Which is why Osama bin Ladin waited until 1998 to release his Fatwa / Jihad call of war on the West,and why CLINTON'S photo was what the terrorist were shooting at during a propaganda training video.

Yeah, Bush and Reagan.

You moron.

Funny, that fatwa was a direct result of American soldiers being stationed in Saudi Arabia during Gulf War I.

Quote:
In 1998, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri co-signed a fatwa in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders which declared the killing of the North Americans and their allies an "individual duty for every Muslim" to "liberate the holy mosque (in Mecca) from their grip".

From Wiki.

Looks like once again you got schooled by a moron, you poor deluded dolt.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

AURAPTOR

Monday, April 20, 2009 10:56 PM

I've ignored your childish grammar nazi comments because it's not relevant to the issue. You think you're being clever and cute..... but in reality, you're doing the standard bullshit that the Left always does, ignore the bigger issues, and harp on trivial, meaningless minutiae for the sake of trivializing any issue brought up by those whom you disagree.

The MSM calls Americans who are upset at the massive debt and excessive spending by the Federal Imperial Gov't "teabaggers" , because they don't want any serious debate going on outside of their mecca, Washington D.C.

Janeane Garofalo calls all those who show up angry at the course of this country ' racist, teabagging rednecks' who simply hate a black man being in the White House. Nothing could be further from the truth, but that's simply how the Left rolls.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 10:56 PM

Quote:

So, wanting the Gov't to stem the tsunami of ILLEGAL immigrants now makes me an EXTREMIST ?

Exactly and every bit as much as speaking out against the war and speaking out against torture made ME an extremist.

You're against something illegal? Hey, me too!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Monday, April 20, 2009 11:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You're a complete and total troll. I'm sorry for having wasted my time w/ you Sig. My problem is that while I've been trying to have a sincere and honest dialog, you've been simply playing the contrarian, and making light of this entire message board exercise.

I gave you a specific example from the actual report, showed you what it says, and you simply want to believe what you want. "Screw the Facts ", that's your motto.
Nothing you post is in the least bit honest or sincere. If I said the sky was blue, you'd call it orange and then say I was a liar.

I'm done w/ this game.

In other words, Rappy doesn't like to play by the rules he demands others play by, so he's taking his ball and going home!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, April 20, 2009 11:04 PM

Quote:
why CLINTON'S photo was what the terrorist were shooting at

Hell, when he started pushing that NAFTA shit, I put his mug on my dartboard!

That make ME a "terrorist" ?

And this shit goes well back to 1953 when we offed Mossedeigh.
Just cause WE have short memories about that kinda thing don't mean no one else does - our grandkids are likely enough to be payin dear still for the shit we're pulling NOW, and that just annoys the crap outta me.

Oh, and while we're debating torture, mind.

Anyone here care to compare the quality of the info we got outta Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a by-the-book hands off, proper and legal interrogation, which netted us plenty of actionable intel which the alphabet boys pointedly IGNORED till well after the fact, which was fully corroborated by hard evidence also seized at the time via a properly issued and legally executed warrant...

And the laughable quality of his crazed rantings after waterboarding him A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY THREE TIMES ?

Shit man, he'd prolly "confess" to murdering the damn tooth fairy if you asked him at this point.

Which, of course, ruins much of the useful info he gave us originally cause the source (that being KSM) is no longer sane enough for anything coming from him to be credible, or even verified.

Way to go, intel boys, great job brownie...

Yet another total clusterfuck brought to you by the alphabet gang.
And on your tax dime too, as a bonus!

Again, the greatest threat to our national security...
is our National Security.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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