Isreal attacks Turkish aid convoy.

POSTED BY: oldenglanddry
UPDATED: Saturday, January 4, 2025 02:51
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OLDENGLANDDRY

Monday, May 31, 2010 8:38 AM

Has the Israeli state gone too far this time?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 31, 2010 12:03 PM

Quote:
More than 10 people have been killed after Israeli commandos stormed a convoy of ships carrying aid to the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army says

Yeah, that could have been handled a bit better.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, May 31, 2010 12:47 PM

Shit, when don't they ?

I mean, call a spade a spade, it's genocide that is their intent, and has been from the very start - only problem is that most of the folk who will call it that have either been driven half mad by rage to where they're so rabid as to not be credible, or have intolerance issues of their own and thus their reasons are suspect.

But as usual, the world turns it's head and pretends not to see, and this incident, like so many more, often worse, every single day, will just be ignored as everyone dances around on tip-toe to avoid offending the easily offendable crybaby that is Israel, even when they spill the blood of innocents by the gallon.
(not that this absolves anyone else, but it damn sure doesn't absolve THEM either!)

And I find that the most offensive - they got no kinda "right" to commit terrorism against other folk, no more than those other folk got any "right" to do it to no one else, but we pretend otherwise, and funnel our money and military resources to support it, making us even bigger hypocrites than they are.

Anyhow, the rest of the world is gonna ignore this, sorry to say - especially the americans, who are busy cheering the war machine while celebrating the slaughter of its unwitting pawns for the corporate empire, with this nice sponsored celebration all wrapped up in nationalism to hide the hurt, the horror and the blood while the knife drives deeper into the publics back.

That said, even their own citizens are starting to shake off the indoctrination over there, and on this day, somewhere in Israel, there's a Gadsden flying proudly above a group of people who mean those words not to all the boogeymen their government holds up to frighten them into compliance, but rather to that government itself.

And a couple pence of the dollars that bought that gadsden and brought it to them, are mine.

The fastest way to cut monsters out of power is to stop taking their orders.

-Frem

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 31, 2010 1:05 PM

The only ones calling for genocide here are the Islamic nut cases.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

AGENTROUKA

Monday, May 31, 2010 2:04 PM

What is the legal situation, exactly, since this took place in international waters?

Can ships, no matter their supposed destination, be attacked in international waters? I find it hard to believe that anything the flotilla could have done with small arms and knives/axes would have endangered Israeli soldiers if they hadn't chosen to be lowered onto those ships from helicopters. But I may be missing something about the legalities of the situation.

Anyone have better insight?

AURAPTOR

Monday, May 31, 2010 2:09 PM

And that's the rub for me here. These weren't pirate ships, or drug smugglers, so I'm not sure what RIGHT anyone had to board them.

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

AGENTROUKA

Monday, May 31, 2010 2:26 PM

Would the correct response have been to wait until they try to enter Israeli waters and then contact them, threaten them and eventually, if necessary, shoot at them from afar?

That would seem more logical to me, anyway. I mean, it was a "civilian" ship and all, but once you're in a country's territory that's a different matter, right?

KWICKO

Monday, May 31, 2010 2:43 PM

Technically, aren't the Israelis the pirates in this instance?

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

DREAMTROVE

Monday, May 31, 2010 2:49 PM

They're pretty low on my list at the moment. I don't buy that Palestinians are terrorists or that Israelis are warmongers, but a regime change in Israel might not be a bad idea. Leadership have been pretty bad since some right winger shot Rabin, which was sort of obvious was what had happened but they didn't admit for years, and now they do, 'cause you know, they'd much rather think it was some Palestinian.

But netanyahu, who was always a nuttin' yahoo, has revealed his true colors, which are very similar to Clinton's, even if not as bad, do show the same basic thought process:starve 'em out.

Skip the political hedging and just call these guys capitalist stylists, or stalinists even. The iPad doesn't like the word Stalinist.

Oh and Israel is currently a moron, which is to say the govt, because we wouldn't want to be known internationally for the policies of our govt. But turkey is currently the military force at protects Israel from an ass whooping by virtue of having a million man army, and it has become politically untenable for them to continue doing so, so I expect someone else will get involved. Maybe we will start drafting American soldiers and sending them over to Israel.

ETA: Rap, I think Frem's point was that withholding food represents a policy of genocide. It's like Clinton's policy in Iraq, or domestic policies in Sudan, Ethiopia and Zimbabe: cut off the food supply to starve out the people. It's not only inhuman, it's damn cowardly. But it's what Stalin did, and what a large number of socialist states he set up have done. (an excellent reason to not have any socialism: not long before they set up national food distribution and then come up with some reason why we need it.)

But the right thinks because socialist ideology is leftist that it's immune to becoming a socialist state, but really, that's one of the things I hated about Bush. Netanyahu Is clearly headed even further down this past, helping to identify the right with socialist tactics formerly of the left.

It's also not helping Israel. In fact, it's moronic for Israel. There's just no possibility that the flotilla is a military vessel. If the turks wanted to attack Israel, they'd just invade. It would be a very short conflict. Six days maybe.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, May 31, 2010 3:18 PM

This just in: Netanyahu cancels meeting with Obama

The purpose all along? I don't know what the agenda of avoiding meeting with the president might be,but he seems he'll bent on it.

ANTHONYT

Monday, May 31, 2010 5:56 PM

Hello,

What a senseless attack. Indeed, piratical in its execution.

I'm catching up on this from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/gaza.protest/index.html?hpt=
T1

"A senior Israeli military official, speaking on condition of anonymity in an independent account cleared by military censors, said Israeli troops were planning to deal with peace activists on a Gaza-bound flotilla, "not to fight.""

This particular quote made me grind my teeth. It's akin to saying, "They were supposed to be defenseless victims of our aggression! How DARE they respond to violence with violence?"

I see that this victimized convoy called itself a 'Freedom Flotilla.' I suppose the Israelis are maintaining their quota of 'attacks on Liberty-themed ships in International waters.'

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

DREAMTROVE

Monday, May 31, 2010 6:44 PM

Yes Anthony, sit back and let the whining commence. I can hear it now, Bill Kristol will go on CNN and complain that Israel has a right to defend itself, a d Joe Lieberman will make an amendment condemning food.

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, May 31, 2010 6:54 PM

If the Turkish ship had been torpedoed and sunk by a North Korean sub, the world would be silent as usual.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:00 AM

Why hello there. As an obligatory Zionist Jew Conspirator, please allow me to attempt to manipulate and misinform you. Brevity is the thing, but brevity fails me.

This incident dramatizes the tragedy of collective punishment. A government and a people are not one in the same. Hamas is a vile organization, but when a Palestinian kid goes without water, Hamas does not feel thirst. The blockade sucks, but I happen to thing that Hamas sucks more. Hamas is an enemy of peace, opposes compromise, and advocates genocide. The aid wasn't being offered to Hamas, but it was offered in a provocative way.

Because Israel enforces a blockade (along with Egypt), it assumes humanitarian responsibilities under international law. Israel provides channels for humanitarian aid to reach Gaza. The flotilla acted outside these channels. Considering the quality of life in Gaza, these channels must be woefully insufficient. Hence, the flotilla.

The damned thing about a blockade, is that you can't let anyone through it, because then it is no loner a blockade. Blockades, like around Gaza, are subject to conditions like notice and impartiality in application. When a blockade is duly established even a neutral metchant vessel may be sunk if it attempts to breach the blockade, or if it refuses an order to stop. There is no international law guaranteeing free passage of humanitarian assistance.

It seems that the Israelis gave the flotilla an opportunity to turn back, and ordered them to stop and threatened to board them repeatedly. This was not a game of chicken, but they absolutely should have turned back. The Israelis shot and killed activists. If the Israeli were responding with proportional force, that's one thing. If they boarded guns blazing, that is something else entirely. Considering that the activists were armed with sticks and so forth, this is an ugly situation. The blockade is a disaster anyway I look at it. But this incident says to me that the blockade sucks, the activists pushed the envelope, and the Israelis are bastards, too. Nothing more.

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 5:52 AM

"There is no international law guaranteeing free passage of humanitarian assistance."

Hello,

If these ships were boarded in international waters, as has been suggested, then this statement may not be correct. I think international law guarantees free passage of whatever in international waters.

I am waiting for more information on the details of the assault so that I know just how bad this is.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 6:56 AM

Look, I can see blockin weapons - although I do have issues with the idea of one sovereign government doin that to another outside of a war, mind you.

I can see inspecting ships in ones own waters for contraband, although that brings up other questions about who's waters parts of that are.

But blocking food, water and medical supplies, on purpose, to "punish" an entire nation for the conduct of individuals, and as policy ?

Call it what it is, Genocide.

-Frem

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:14 AM

Egypt also is engaged in this blockade of Gaza. We must be ready to assume it has all the racist, genocidal motives which Israel is being accused.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

AGENTROUKA

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
When a blockade is duly established even a neutral metchant vessel may be sunk if it attempts to breach the blockade, or if it refuses an order to stop. There is no international law guaranteeing free passage of humanitarian assistance

Beast, thank you for your contribution from the perspective of evil conspirators.

I do, however, think that the blockade itself is not the issue here, but rather the fact that the Israelis boarded this ship in international waters. If this had taken place in Israeli territory, I'm sure the reaction would be different, over all.

Does Israel really have the right to block an attempt to breach the blockade that far outside its own territory? Do they have the right to board a ship in international waters? Shouldn't they have waited until the flotilla actually entered their watery turf?

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Egypt also is engaged in this blockade of Gaza. We must be ready to assume it has all the racist, genocidal motives which Israel is being accused.

Ain't no assumption about it, deliberately blocking food, water, and medical supplies is exactly that no matter WHO does it, everyone involved is an accomplice and those supporting it financially and politically are aiding and abetting.

Look, I know Hamas are dicks, and most of their leaders are winding up their people with Israel as the boogeyman *JUST* like the Israeli leaders are winding up their people with Palestine as their boogeyman, that's always been the nature of these things, even back when it was a "gentlemans game" and sniping officers was considered a violation of the rules of war, yadda yadda.

Cutting through the indoctrination and getting the poor souls being wound up as cannon fodder to see that is the only way that game is ever gonna get solved, but that can't happen when no one is gonna listen to us cause of our unquestioning support of one side even when they're clearly in the wrong - for all the talk, the floodgates of money never close an inch, and everyone knows it.

If you'd for just bloody once cut through your own prejudices and realize OUR leaders are winding YOU up the very same way, you'd realize that the only way to stop the slaughter, the only way to ever stem the tide of blood, is to show them all how they're being used, by Hamas, by Likud, and by the international community as well.

All that said...

What Israel has done here, is turn an entire sovereign nation into a concentration camp, and now they mean to starve those people ?

What's next, the showers ?

Just like an abused child often repeats the cycle when they grow up and have children, as a nation and a people, Israel has grown up and in their paranoia and fear, become the very same type of oppressors they once suffered under the heel of, and it shames me as an american that our country supports it when they ought to know better.

Trying to block weapons shipments, I can see the logic of it - I don't agree, mind you, because Israel is non stop taking their land, and doesn't want them defending themselves, and gee that sounds familiar too, does it not ?

But blocking humanitarian and relief supplies is completely inhuman and unacceptable by any moral standard worth the name - inspecting for contraband, that can be worked out, although better done by a neutral (or close as possible to such) party than anyone involved directly, poltically or financially, but still, at least the pretense is logical - but no one, NO ONE, has the moral right to decide an entire country should starve when people are willing to send supplies to prevent it, not Israel, not us, not the UN...

NO DAMN BODY.

And if that's how this is gonna play, if that blockade is gonna be the camp fence, and those cat D-9s are gonna be diggin mass graves for the malnourished dead...

I know some cubans familar with blockade runnin, and damn good at it, who'd be more than happy to stick a pin or two in an ally of the USA, and I am pretty sure that nutter Chavez would be right behind them - are those the folk who you'd prefer the Palestinians seeing as their heros, dude ?

Someone should man up and say "This is wrong!" - and that shoulda been us, and here we are, supporting it...

Ain't about being being *politically* right or wrong, this is about being HUMANE, and if we support this madness, we got no claim to that assumption.

-Frem

HERO

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If these ships were boarded in international waters, as has been suggested, then this statement may not be correct. I think international law guarantees free passage of whatever in international waters.

It depends. I'm not sure Isreal is signed onto an agreement of this nature. Many countries have not.

I remind you that we blockaded Cuba during the missile crisis, we also blockaded Iraq 1991-2003. In the process we interdicted ships thought to be carrying weapons or illegal oil. That is similar to what Isreal is doing.

The video is clear that Isreali soldiers were attacked after they boarded the ship and they opened fire only after suffering a number of injuries and the threat of additional injury, death, or capture. While this alone does not demonstrate right or wrong...it demonstrates reckless disregard by the folks attacking the armed soldiers. It does not take an international law expert to tell you that if your trying to beat to death a guy with a gun...he might shoot you. So on an individual basis I think you can't blame the soldiers who neither overreacted or got out of control.

The question is, should the Isrealis have been there in the first place?

If this attack happened in Isreali waters then Isreal has the right to board and inspect any vessel they choose. If during their inspection their soldiers were attacked then they have the right to defend themselves.

If this attack happened in international waters, then I'm not sure how it works. My understanding is that Isreal broadcast its intent to anyone who'd listen. These ships chose to run the blockade setting up a confrontation with a military force. In essence Isreal reacted to their attempt to run the blockade, they responded with force and Isreali soldiers defended themselves.

If the blockade was legal, then the ships are in the wrong for putting themselves in position to be intercepted and then resisting when boarded. If the blockade was illegal, then Isreal is in the wrong regardless of how the interception turned out.

Quote:

I am waiting for more information on the details of the assault so that I know just how bad this is.

No need for that. Isreal is always guilty. Just like American police. Details and facts have no place in this discussion. I'm shocked you even suggested it.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing." Niki2, 2010.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:12 PM

AR: Israel has some odd ideas about what constitutes IT'S waters, compared to what the rest of the world considers its waters.

There have been other incidents when Israel fired on clearly identifiable ships, ships they even had located, mapped, and marked as U.S. ships. Of course, they say it was an accident, but if it was, it was a pretty big fuck-up involving insane miscommunication and extreme incompetence.

Thinking back, I wonder if Israel's many fuck-ups are less the result of active malice, and more the result of hoo-rah complacency with America's shiny toys. Maybe it's like they're saying, "yay, we have the most technologically advanced military forces in our region, we don't have to think anymore."

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:21 PM

mincingbeast: I note that Hezbollah and Hamas are two different organizations. You may or may not have them confused; most media outlets can't get them straight either.

If you meant Hamas, then I retract my statement. I don't actually know THAT much about them, apart from they're a political party that was elected in Palestine. Perhaps they advocate violence against Israel or something, but they themselves don't seem to have the firepower, what violence against Israel there is that happens seems to be independent Palestinian whacko terrorists or Hezbollah.

I don't imagine Hamas would launch a full-scale attack against Israel anymore than I imagine Iran would, despite the respective rhetoric of their leaders.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:33 PM

Quote:
If this attack happened in Isreali waters then Isreal has the right to board and inspect any vessel they choose. If during their inspection their soldiers were attacked then they have the right to defend themselves.

Sound to me based on the international consensus that this WASN'T Israel's waters, though like I said, Israel has funny ideas about that.

Quote:
The video is clear that Isreali soldiers were attacked after they boarded the ship and they opened fire only after suffering a number of injuries and the threat of additional injury, death, or capture. While this alone does not demonstrate right or wrong...it demonstrates reckless disregard by the folks attacking the armed soldiers. It does not take an international law expert to tell you that if your trying to beat to death a guy with a gun...he might shoot you. So on an individual basis I think you can't blame the soldiers who neither overreacted or got out of control.

Hmm, I didn't know that they were armed. I suppose it still goes back to the international waters question. Like you said, if it's in Israel's waters, they do have a right to inspect the boats (though if they're boarding guns out from the get go, I'm wondering if that's not slightly more hostile than the usual understanding of an inspection).

But if it's in international waters, then I'm pretty sure people on a ship being involuntarily boarded have a right to defend themselves against the boarders.

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 4:37 PM

Activist aid ships head to Gaza AGAIN as Israeli warships gather
http://www.jordantimes.com/?news=27023

A neutron nuke detonated on Tel Aviv will cure this problem. And a roundup of jews in USA for reeducation camps, a ban on the pagan jew religions, arrest and decaptiation of all jew banksters.

Channel 4 Dispatches: The Children Of Gaza (2010)
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=42398
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2010/03/ch4-dispatches-child
ren-of-gaza-2010.html
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=TGQFCGXH

Quote:

US taxdollars at work in Israel

CSPAN caller: "I, for one, am sick and tired of all these Jews coming on C-span and other stations and pushing us to go to war against our Muslim friends. They're willing to spend the last drop of American blood and treasure to get their way in the world. They have way too much power in this country. People like Wolfowitz and Feith and the other neo-cons that jewed us into Iraq; and now we're going to spend the next 60 years rehabilitating our soldiers. I'm sick and tired of it."
CIA agent Michael Scheuer: I think that American foreign policy, of course, is eventually up to the American people. One of the big things that we've not been able to discuss in this country for the last 30 years is our policy towards the Israelis. Whether we want to be involved in fighting Israel's wars in the future is something that Americans should be able to talk about. They may vote yes. They may want to see their kids killed in Iraq or Yemen or somewhere else to protect Israel. But the question is, we need to talk about it. Ultimately Israel as a country is of no particular worth to the United states...strategically - they have no resources we need, their manpower is minimal, their association with us is a negative for the United states. Now that's a fact. What you want to do about that fact is entirely different, but for anyone to stand up in the United states and say that our support for Israel doesn't hurt us in the world - our our support for Hosni Mubarak's dictatorship doesn't hurt us, is to just defy reality."
-CSPAN, 5 Jan 2010
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/135427
youtube.com/watch?v=r92wQDmk-RU

Hamas Was Founded by Israeli Mossad
http://www.wariscrime.com/2008/12/29/news/hamas-was-founded-by-mossad/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_watson_012703_hamas.html
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/26/how_israel_and_the_united_states
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html

The Complete Guide to Killing Non-Jews - by Rabbi Od Yosef Hai Yeshiva, 9 Nov 2009
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/11/19/updated-version-of-the-com
plete-guide-to-killing-non-jews/

British court indicts Israeli minister for warcrimes in Gaza
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41155

Israeli Law of Return only allows citizenship for jews
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

It's a felony to preach Christianity in Israel.
http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/christian-persecution-aler
t-messianic-jews-arrested-in-israel/

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassI
D=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel Where Christianity Is a Felony
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm

Mohel Rabbi Yosef David Weisburg sucking penis during circumcism bris ritual, Jerusalem Post Magazine, Nov. 5, 1976, page 14
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/salafi/KosherTopJobs.htm

"A circumcision ritual practiced by some Orthodox Jews has alarmed city health officials, who say it may have led to three cases of herpes - one of them fatal - in infants. But after months of meetings with Orthodox leaders, city officials have been unable to persuade them to abandon the practice. The practice is known as oral sucti

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AURAPTOR

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 4:46 PM

Being ignored is why Egypt has a blockade on Gaza too.

Being ignored is why the U.N. called a special meeting over this incident, but nothing on the N.Korea sinking of a S. Korean ship, where many more lives were lost.

There's a distortion going on here, alright.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:18 PM

Byte, I typed Hamas and meant Hamas. That the Palestinians elected Hamas does not speak highly of democratic elections, or the Palestinians (for that matter, Netanyahu's election). I may be a joo, and idiot, but I can at least keep my genocidal groups straight.

Take everything I say with a grain of Kosher salt. I am not an expert on international, but fail to see how the exact location of the flotilla matters so long as it was attempting to run the blockade.

I candidly admit that I do not know the full scope of the blockade, but I have heard complaints that it prevents gaza fishermen from doing their job. That makes the blockade the trouble. Would people really be less offended if this went down a mile from shore?

Anyway, I appreciate those who have resisted hysterical moral preening and faux macho posturing on this issue. I know how hard it is to resist chest thumping when joos are involved.

MINCINGBEAST

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

But if it's in international waters, then I'm pretty sure people on a ship being involuntarily boarded have a right to defend themselves against the boarders.

I assume you're kidding. A ship with a manifest intent to breach an established blockade, that is warned repeatedly, and knee deep in the attempt, is entitled to use violence as part of the attempt by virtue of international waters?

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BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:35 PM

They can only blockade if it's in THEIR waters (Or the UN approves? I think?), which, as of right now, is in question.

If they're in international waters, I think it's less so much violating Israel law by trying to break the blockade, and more a violation of international law with an unlawful boarding.

If they're in Israel waters, then the situation is as you describe... Though the Israelis still oughta be more careful about shooting people on a boat if the international community is likely to take the side of the people on the boat. I think we both agree: it could have been handled better.

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:45 PM

I do grant the point that it's ridiculous that who is in the right here should be based on something as arbitrary as location.

Personally, my feeling is that the Israelis just wanted to defend their country from gun smuggling, which is understandable (if that's true), and the flotilla just wanted to bring food and medicine to Palestinians. So, if I look at it as both groups had good intentions, then this is just a sad mistake.

I also note that I would really, really appreciate it if Israel stopped MAKING sad mistakes. It'd be good for Israel's image, too, because some people think they're actually doing it on purpose.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 12:37 AM

Rappy, that one I give you - I did not expect this to draw any significant attention from the media or the rest of the world but it has, surprisingly.

Here's for hoping the eyes of the world on them encourage a little bit better behavior on behalf of all involved.

As for Korea, well, there's questions about it, and that's really another topic.

-F

CATPIRATE

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 12:53 AM

The aid is already flowing. This was gonna happen because the activists aren't peaceful. Clubs and knives against the commandos. Israel lets those boats in here comes more weapons. Just remember the rancher in Arizona complained and complained about those poor humble mexicans now he is dead. There ya go. piratecat

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 3:17 AM

Israeli ships opened fire on the Turkish ships 30 minutes before the Israeli commandos boarded the ships. All the Turks had were steel pipes for self defense.

Turkey is a member of NATO.

When Israeli attacked Turkish ships in international waters, Israeli attacked NATO.

NATO has 1,000s of nukes, Israel has 400 nukes.

Israeli sub sank the South Korean warship in a false flag attack to blame N Korea, just like it sank USS Liberty to blame Egypt.

Do the math for WW3, as the jew banksters run all the way to their private central counterfeit banks.

Death to all Israelis! Nuke em till they glow!!!

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 3:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Byte, I typed Hamas and meant Hamas. That the Palestinians elected Hamas does not speak highly of democratic elections, or the Palestinians (for that matter, Netanyahu's election). I may be a joo, and idiot, but I can at least keep my genocidal groups straight.

Take everything I say with a grain of Kosher salt. I am not an expert on international, but fail to see how the exact location of the flotilla matters so long as it was attempting to run the blockade.

I candidly admit that I do not know the full scope of the blockade, but I have heard complaints that it prevents gaza fishermen from doing their job. That makes the blockade the trouble. Would people really be less offended if this went down a mile from shore?

Anyway, I appreciate those who have resisted hysterical moral preening and faux macho posturing on this issue. I know how hard it is to resist chest thumping when joos are involved.

Location, location, location. It makes all the difference in the world. If I head south from Key West, that doesn't show a clear intent that I'm headed to Cuba. I might be, I might not be. You don't know their INTENT if they're still dozens or hundreds of miles away.

As to how they boarded the ships and why they were "attacked"... Well, if someone knocks on my door, I can say, "No, thank you"; if they drop onto my roof, I have to assume I'm under attack, and that they aren't there to try to sell me on The Watchtower. Capisce? Someone drops onto my boat from a helo in open water, I'm thinking it's pirates, and I'm gonna defend myself with whatever I have.

Silly me, but I thought there was some group of people who were cheered as "heroes" for trying something similar aboard a certain Flight 93 on September 11th. When under attack, do you NOT have the right to defend yourself with all possible methods and weapons? I thought self-defense was supposed to be one of those "inalienable rights" we supposed all men were born with.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 3:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I do grant the point that it's ridiculous that who is in the right here should be based on something as arbitrary as location.

Personally, my feeling is that the Israelis just wanted to defend their country from gun smuggling, which is understandable (if that's true), and the flotilla just wanted to bring food and medicine to Palestinians. So, if I look at it as both groups had good intentions, then this is just a sad mistake.

I also note that I would really, really appreciate it if Israel stopped MAKING sad mistakes. It'd be good for Israel's image, too, because some people think they're actually doing it on purpose.

Yup. If a kid bites someone in class, it's an incident and a sad mistake. If he does it a few more times, he starts gettin' a reputation as a biter, ya know? (I borrowed that from "Justified"; it kinda stuck with me)

KWICKO

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 3:46 AM

I think we need to hire someone to follow PN around and just keep saying in his ear, "Psssst! You're not helping!"

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 3:51 AM

LOL@"Psssst! You're not helping!"

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:04 AM

Racheal Corrie headed to Gaza
http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/irish-rachel-corrie-still-o
n-course-for-gaza/

Email From AID Ship 'Rachel Corrie' Enroute To Gaza
http://rense.com/general91/rc.htm

Rachel Corrie, an American girl murdered by Israeli jew army
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBo
x&ei=OdcFTJ71NcKqlAf00Zi7Cg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAUQBSgA&q=rachel+corrie&spell=1

PS: Gaza is NOT part of Israel, so Israel has no right to pirate ships off its coast.

Death to all Israelis! Arrest for all jews!

MINCINGBEAST

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Location, location, location. It makes all the difference in the world. If I head south from Key West, that doesn't show a clear intent that I'm headed to Cuba. I might be, I might not be. You don't know their INTENT if they're still dozens or hundreds of miles away.

As to how they boarded the ships and why they were "attacked"... Well, if someone knocks on my door, I can say, "No, thank you"; if they drop onto my roof, I have to assume I'm under attack, and that they aren't there to try to sell me on The Watchtower. Capisce? Someone drops onto my boat from a helo in open water, I'm thinking it's pirates, and I'm gonna defend myself with whatever I have.

Silly me, but I thought there was some group of people who were cheered as "heroes" for trying something similar aboard a certain Flight 93 on September 11th. When under attack, do you NOT have the right to defend yourself with all possible methods and weapons? I thought self-defense was supposed to be one of those "inalienable rights" we supposed all men were born with.

I have not read the minds of any of the activists, but am certain that they intended to brech the blockade. Short of telepathy, I'll settle for circumstantial evidence. The flotilla organizers knew the blockade would prevent them from reaching Gaza, and deliberately organized in spite of it. Their course was set on the blockade, and they ignored orders to turn around. This better represents intent than an argument over miles.

I do hope nobody drops on your roof, but if they did, I don't begrudge your surprise. It would be unlike like having IDF commandos board your ship after warning you to turn around. The parties weren't exactly strangers at this point--each side knew what the other was doing. The activists wanted to deliver goods; the Israelis wanted to stop them.

I'm not prepared to say that clubbing IDF soldiers under the circumstances was reasonable, anymore than I'm prepared to say that the blockade is reasonable.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 5:45 AM

Hello,

If one is to draw a line in the sand, one should wait for me to cross it before taking offense.

Never mind that the blockade itself disturbs me.

One also wonders why they weren't equipped less-than-lethal if they knew they were tackling civvies with sticks and stones trying to deliver aid.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 6:54 AM

Hello Pirate,

It's not a NATO convoy unless NATO orders it to assemble. As far as I know, NATO did not send the convoy in question. Though... perhaps they should have.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 8:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

I'm not prepared to say that clubbing IDF soldiers under the circumstances was reasonable, anymore than I'm prepared to say that the blockade is reasonable.

I have since watched some of the video recordings of the event and found the clubbings the activists engaged it quite brutal. Of course, it is difficult to judge how heavy the clubs they used were from the distance the video was shot, but they hit people who were down in ways that didn't look like self-defense. The resulting brawl had to necessarily lead to deaths the moment actual guns were introduced.

They definitely attacked the soldiers, but it remains to acertain whether the act of boarding itself (and any preliminary shots aimed at the flotilla) did constitute the initiation of an attack in itself, making the activists' hefty response legally justified, or if not.

I still find it wrong that the Israeli troops boarded the flotilla where they did. The location makes a huge difference to me. And lowering the soldiers onto the ship in this way, into the club-weilding hands of the defending activists was incompetent to say the least, irresponsible and senseless with regards to the danger the soldiers were placed in, pretty much taking for granted the fact that the situation WOULD escalate.

The blame for escalation can not be laid at just one party's feet here.

KANEMAN

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I do grant the point that it's ridiculous that who is in the right here should be based on something as arbitrary as location.

Personally, my feeling is that the Israelis just wanted to defend their country from gun smuggling, which is understandable (if that's true), and the flotilla just wanted to bring food and medicine to Palestinians. So, if I look at it as both groups had good intentions, then this is just a sad mistake.

I also note that I would really, really appreciate it if Israel stopped MAKING sad mistakes. It'd be good for Israel's image, too, because some people think they're actually doing it on purpose.

I would agree with this post except for one thing...There was a group of Palestinian activists on the one ship where the violence took place. And Israel believed their intentions were bad. I believe they were given a chance to have the cargo inspected and then delivered.

Also, blockades are perfectly legal between combatant nations and intercepting the ships that are known to be heading to break the blockade can happen in international waters. These ships had no problem letting everyone know their intention to break the blockade. However, I'm sure Israel could have stopped the flotilla without boarding them if it wanted to....nets on propellers etc...

KANEMAN

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CatPirate:
The aid is already flowing. This was gonna happen because the activists aren't peaceful. Clubs and knives against the commandos. Israel lets those boats in here comes more weapons. Just remember the rancher in Arizona complained and complained about those poor humble mexicans now he is dead. There ya go. piratecat

You have a point Catpirate. Israel sends in more humanitarian aid, then those ships carried, every week. And, the activists were not peaceful.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:16 AM

Phoenix rose

The IDF video is a disconnected string of segments from the attack, edited by the Israelis to create the impression you just posted without ever actually saying it because, of course, they knew better.

The clubbing did not lead to the killings, the killings happened first. The commandos would have kill more of them if they had not halted the attackers by attacking them with clubs. It was a fairly ept counter attack for people who were seriously outgunned. Sure, i'm sure it was brutal, on the other hand, the victims in this case were busy murdering aid workers.

Israel has really screwed itself., it's Muslim neighbors, esp, turkey, are really ticked off, and will not protect it. I suspect racism, hubris, they seem to think that they are an even match for a billion muslims, which is absurd. Supporting this raid is not supporting Israel, IMHO.I support intelligent moves in defense of Israel, this OTOH, is idiocy.

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 2:31 PM

I think you meant me and not PhoenexRose.

And I hadn't realized the chronology of the killing vs. clubbing. If this is the case then... the Israeli attack is entirely reprehensible.

NIKI2

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:10 PM

I'm late, and someone might already have mentioned this, but it seems to me it's not as cut-and-dried as it's made to appear. Loth as I am to speak up for the Israelis, as everyone know I blame them AT LEAST as much as the Palestinians, but check this out:

Quote:
Accounts of what happened conflicted. Israeli officials said the commandos acted in self defense after being attacked with clubs and knives, while activists charged that the commandos fired on sleeping civilian passengers.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100601/wl_mideast_afp/israelconflictgaza
un_20100601084407

I read this in more than one place. Apparently all the ships but one stopped and let themselves be boarded and inspected. On this one, the minute the Israeli soldiers boarded, they were attacked, according to these reports.

Now, I'm not sure we'll know the whole truth of the incident ever, but it does make me question. Why would only ONE ship be submitted to Israeli attack out of nowhere? Is it possible that one ship WAS carrying something they knew they shouldn't be? Why is (as far as I can tell) nobody here mentioning this?

I'd welcome a thorough investigation, tho' I fear the bias on both sides (and their backers in the UN, US and around the world) will make one impossible.

Just sayin'...

Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...

KANEMAN

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm late, and someone might already have mentioned this, but it seems to me it's not as cut-and-dried as it's made to appear. Loth as I am to speak up for the Israelis, as everyone know I blame them AT LEAST as much as the Palestinians, but check this out:
Quote:
Accounts of what happened conflicted. Israeli officials said the commandos acted in self defense after being attacked with clubs and knives, while activists charged that the commandos fired on sleeping civilian passengers.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100601/wl_mideast_afp/israelconflictgaza
un_20100601084407

I read this in more than one place. Apparently all the ships but one stopped and let themselves be boarded and inspected. On this one, the minute the Israeli soldiers boarded, they were attacked, according to these reports.

Now, I'm not sure we'll know the whole truth of the incident ever, but it does make me question. Why would only ONE ship be submitted to Israeli attack out of nowhere? Is it possible that one ship WAS carrying something they knew they shouldn't be? Why is (as far as I can tell) nobody here mentioning this?

I'd welcome a thorough investigation, tho' I fear the bias on both sides (and their backers in the UN, US and around the world) will make one impossible.

Just sayin'...

Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...

For the first time I have to agree with you. Happy to see you seeing through media lies and asking questions.

MINCINGBEAST

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Phoenix rose

The IDF video is a disconnected string of segments from the attack, edited by the Israelis to create the impression you just posted without ever actually saying it because, of course, they knew better.

The clubbing did not lead to the killings, the killings happened first. The commandos would have kill more of them if they had not halted the attackers by attacking them with clubs. It was a fairly ept counter attack for people who were seriously outgunned. Sure, i'm sure it was brutal, on the other hand, the victims in this case were busy murdering aid workers.

Source, or suspicion? I'm curious if this is one of those things you "just know."

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 4:26 PM

Hello Niki,

I agree that we will never know what happened. Nobody with access to the unfiltered evidence is unbiased.

I think if the Israelis had found contraband of an intriguing sort on that boat, it would have been mentioned in the same breath as, "We acted in self defense" as in "We acted in self defense, and then we found rockets aboard, explaining why they were so hostile."

Everyone should realize that when someone blatantly moves to run a blockade, they are provoking. They are essentially daring the blockaders to do something. I am positive that the blockade runners in this case were hoping that Israel would do something to make them look bad.

In the tension of the boarding, anyone could have been the first to commit violence. And once it starts, it bursts like an uncontrolled conflagration.

All of this? All of this was known before one helicopter ever left its pad. So we ask ourselves, "What Would We Do, knowing all this?"

It's easy to arm-chair quarterback, but I have my list.

1) Do it in territorial waters, after a technical breach had been made that could not be denied.

2) Do it with coast guard vessels, and not He-Man air drops from helicopters.

3) Equip all persons involved with less-lethal alternatives since you are essentially dealing with civilians in a 'riot' type situation.

4) Have ways to stop the ships if they are non-compliant that does not involve killing people.

5) Document the event from start to finish so that if trouble does develop, a continuous film of the operation will show the good conduct of the blockaders.

I think if the U.S. had conducted this operation, we would want our government to have done these things against an aid convoy (if we were to do anything at all.)

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

CAVALIER

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 6:43 PM

I like the line taken by the Daily Mash:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/israel-just-making-it
-easier-for-guardian-readers-to-look-good-201006012778/

NIKI2

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 10:21 PM

Ahhh, but Anthony...I saw nothing about them searching the ship afterwards, how do we know it wasn't such a mess that no search happened after everything settled down? Or does anyone know?

So, unless a search WAS conducted after the melee, we can't know if they were carrying contraband or not. If they were, I should think the Israelis would be shouting it from the rooftops to justify themselves.

However, your ideas ROCK, and I agree 100%.

And Cavalier, I think that article rocks, too, it made me smile and nod my head. Thank you.

Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 10:36 PM

This was no flotilla of " peace ".

The Islamic radicals - the Turks - went specifically to break the blockade, and nothing more.

They brandished weapons ( metal bars and broken glass ) well before any IDF troops were on board.

What sort of "peace" activist arm themselves like that, before a fight, which they egged on ?

This entire event was orchestrated for the explicit intent to make Israel look like the bad guy.

They aren't, not even by a long shot.

Glenn Beck me all you want, the facts are irrefutable.

"Israel is presumed guilty until it's found guilty, "

Truer words were never spoken.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

MINCINGBEAST

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This was no flotilla of " peace ".

The Islamic radicals - the Turks - went specifically to break the blockade, and nothing more.

They brandished weapons ( metal bars and broken glass ) well before any IDF troops were on board.

What sort of "peace" activist arm themselves like that, before a fight, which they egged on ?

This entire event was orchestrated for the explicit intent to make Israel look like the bad guy.

They aren't, not even by a long shot.

Dearest Rappy,

Stories are circulating that at least three of the slain Turks were self-styled shahids, or martyrs, who boasted of their lust for death and hatred of the Joos, etc....I am not surprised, but would hesitate to let the presence of a few crazed bronze-age holdovers characterize the entire flotilla, or make Israel's actions reasonable by default.

I agree with you on the general principle that the flotilla was designed, at least in part, as a stunt to challenge the blockade.. Thats as far as I'll go, inasmuch as agreeing with a known conversative furry is very awkward for me.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

I agree with you on the general principle that the flotilla was designed, at least in part, as a stunt to challenge the blockade.. Thats as far as I'll go, inasmuch as agreeing with a known conversative furry is very awkward for me.

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

MINCINGBEAST

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:24 PM

Ah...I recognize the well-worn phrase. But I don't follow you. You forget, I'm rather dim. Whose history are you referring to? Is this a veiled referrence to the holocaust?

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, June 2, 2010 11:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Ah...I recognize the well-worn phrase. But I don't follow you. You forget, I'm rather dim. Whose history are you referring to? Is this a veiled referrence to the holocaust?

I'd rather use the Excalibur version of the line, but to the point.

World public opinion is being formed here, on purpose. Accusing the Jews of all sorts of atrocities, inhumanity,... just like the photo shopped pics from the '06 war w/ Hezbollah.... Notice how, almost on queue, there were world wide "demonstrations " , condemning Israel for the incident. The chants were nearly identical, regardless of what city the marches took place.

As if they had been scripted....

To the point... this is a repeat of the 1930's... blaming the Jews for all the world's problems.

Here we go again.

( and yes, the raid was poorly thought up and executed. The IDF isn't blameless here. Even though this was a set up, the IDF should have known better )

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

ANTHONYT

Thursday, June 3, 2010 1:04 AM

Hello,

I just read this on CNN:

“An attempt by Israel to deliver the goods from the flotilla that was stopped Monday was rejected, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources confirmed that trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid.”

It is odd that needed aid would be refused.

This makes me believe that the whole routine is a political game, and not at all about the aid in question. If so, it is a game that Israel is currently losing.

I remember there was once a provocateur who led thousands of protesters in a blatant, public rejection of an unpopular law. He marched his people defiantly towards the sea in an effort to smuggle contraband into the country. The government who had outlawed the contraband felt that they would be cast in a negative light if they enforced the ban, and so they backed off I wonder if something similar is going on here. Of course, the historical provocateur believed in nonviolence, and endured indignity and beatings. Our modern copycats seem to be willing to engage in violence.

Still, I wonder who be victorious. With more aid convoys enroute to Gaza, Israel’s response will tell all.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

CATPIRATE

Thursday, June 3, 2010 1:52 AM

KM. Well I am jew lover. And even though they don't assimilate it makes them seem strange in other lands. Now that area is the unholiness place on earth. That is why Jesus showed up to make a change in their world. Ya know the jews outlasted Babylon, Rome, and the Nazis. They got away from Mose's law and look what happen. Is the US gonna bulldoze Manhattan Island for the indians. The Palestinians are always going to be the jews burden. Israel has to what it has to do.

ANTIMASON

Thursday, June 3, 2010 3:34 AM

you know.. ive never been to Israel. this may sound calouse, but its my opinion that we have no more responsibility for what happens there, then we do in Darfur or any other impoverished or war torn area. i personally dont care what happens in that region, what Israel or the Arabs do, so long as we are not involved. i do not believe in allying ourselves with anyone, just as our founding fathers advocated

i personally believe that we should not only distance ourselves from Israel, but our European allies, and the entire UN. stop giving aid to all of them, Israel included, and quit giving aid to the Arab nations around them(whom we give 5x as much).

im christian, i know im not an antisemite. if Israel truly feels threatened by Hamas, or Ahmadinijad, let them respond! its their right. but if Israel commits an act of aggression, we should not be held liable for it- they do not have the right to drag us into the middle of every little conflict they find themselves in. we do not have the right to violate the liberties of anyone, whether by our own volition or on behalf of another entity. this is why we should have no allies, especially unconditionally.

if Israel(or any other nation) is victimized, and they ask us for help in defense, then our congress has the obligation to go to the American people, and ask for an up or down vote, whether we as Americans, want to go to war in their defense. thats one thing. but they do not have the right to command our service in their defense, nor do American political leaders have the right to obligate AMericans to go into conflict in foreign lands without our consent. all in all, we should just stay out of these things..

Israel is perfectly capable of defending themselves, and i think we ought to let them.

MINCINGBEAST

Thursday, June 3, 2010 4:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
[B
I'd rather use the Excalibur version of the line, but to the point.

World public opinion is being formed here, on purpose. Accusing the Jews of all sorts of atrocities, inhumanity,... just like the photo shopped pics from the '06 war w/ Hezbollah.... Notice how, almost on queue, there were world wide "demonstrations " , condemning Israel for the incident. The chants were nearly identical, regardless of what city the marches took place.

As if they had been scripted....

To the point... this is a repeat of the 1930's... blaming the Jews for all the world's problems.

Here we go again.

( and yes, the raid was poorly thought up and executed. The IDF isn't blameless here. Even though this was a set up, the IDF should have known better )

There's an infinite number of reasons to hate the Jews--or at least to dislike Israel.

If I were European, I suspect I would hate Israel because 1) it gives me a chance to apologize for my own brutal, colonial past 2) while kicking Jews (for a good cause!).

Alas, I am self-loathing Jew and no ardent suppporter of Israel. I dislike any state that is invested in a strict religious identity. But I also dislike cant and bullshit. No doubt that Israel has a bloody past and created a lot of problems for itself, but the attention and spite its actions generate are disproportionate. Is it just me, or is Israel a proxy for the religious and geo-political tensions of our time?

ANTHONYT

Thursday, June 3, 2010 5:26 AM

Hello Mincing,

I think our massive support for Israel causes a feeling that we are responsible for anything they do. This is not only the feeling in other countries, but also within our own.

So when they level a city block, or shoot up an aid shipment, it's our money or equipment that enabled the action.

I think we care far less about governments we don't supply massive support for. I'm with the policy of ceasing aid to Israel. They are the most technologically advanced military in the region. They're small, but they're not the underdog anymore. I want to stop feeling responsible for the continuing skirmishes of an ancient war.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

KWICKO

Friday, June 4, 2010 5:42 PM

By the way, one of those "radicals" that was killed was an American citizen.

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/03/american-citizen-killed-
on-turkish-flotilla/?test=latestnews

He was shot once in the chest and four times in the head. I guess he wouldn't obey orders and stay down, so they had to keep shooting him in the head at close range.

How would y'all feel if this was an American citizen trying to enter Iran, and the Iranian forces board the ship far out to see in international waters, and started executing American citizens? Would that change the equation?

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

WULFENSTAR

Friday, June 4, 2010 5:46 PM

Said it before, will say it again..

The Jews learned very well from the Nazis.

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, June 4, 2010 5:54 PM

NPR and BBC have reported that several of the slain, including the US citizen, have...questionable ties to put it politely. No doubt the humanitarian aim of the flotilla was noble. A shame these violent gave the Israelis a chance to act like asses (which they seem to never refuse). Really, this has become a discussion of proportionality, because there is no denying the shitty intent of some of the "activists." And now were locked in the same dreary accusations that Israel always inspires.

In other news, I'm organizing a Freedom Convoy to the Kurdish area in Northern Turkey. There may, or may not be, members of the PKK in the convoy.

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, June 4, 2010 5:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Said it before, will say it again..

The Jews learned very well from the Nazis.

What a brilliant, and brave, observation.

KWICKO

Friday, June 4, 2010 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
NPR and BBC have reported that several of the slain, including the US citizen, have...questionable ties to put it politely. No doubt the humanitarian aim of the flotilla was noble. A shame these violent gave the Israelis a chance to act like asses (which they seem to never refuse). Really, this has become a discussion of proportionality, because there is no denying the shitty intent of some of the "activists." And now were locked in the same dreary accusations that Israel always inspires.

In other news, I'm organizing a Freedom Convoy to the Kurdish area in Northern Turkey. There may, or may not be, members of the PKK in the convoy.

Well, if you die, I'm sure someone in the Turkish military will say you got what you deserved.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

MINCINGBEAST

Friday, June 4, 2010 6:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
NPR and BBC have reported that several of the slain, including the US citizen, have...questionable ties to put it politely. No doubt the humanitarian aim of the flotilla was noble. A shame these violent gave the Israelis a chance to act like asses (which they seem to never refuse). Really, this has become a discussion of proportionality, because there is no denying the shitty intent of some of the "activists." And now were locked in the same dreary accusations that Israel always inspires.

In other news, I'm organizing a Freedom Convoy to the Kurdish area in Northern Turkey. There may, or may not be, members of the PKK in the convoy.

Well, if you die, I'm sure someone in the Turkish military will say you got what you deserved.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

If I had a point, you wouldve just proven it for me. Think the rest of the world would care?

Free Kurdistan!

WULFENSTAR

Friday, June 4, 2010 6:35 PM

Free America.

KWICKO

Friday, June 4, 2010 11:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
NPR and BBC have reported that several of the slain, including the US citizen, have...questionable ties to put it politely. No doubt the humanitarian aim of the flotilla was noble. A shame these violent gave the Israelis a chance to act like asses (which they seem to never refuse). Really, this has become a discussion of proportionality, because there is no denying the shitty intent of some of the "activists." And now were locked in the same dreary accusations that Israel always inspires.

In other news, I'm organizing a Freedom Convoy to the Kurdish area in Northern Turkey. There may, or may not be, members of the PKK in the convoy.

Well, if you die, I'm sure someone in the Turkish military will say you got what you deserved.

Mike

On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. --Auraptor

This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on. --Fremdfirma

If I had a point, you wouldve just proven it for me. Think the rest of the world would care?

Free Kurdistan!

While supplies last!

KWICKO

Friday, June 4, 2010 11:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Free America.

With purchase.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, June 5, 2010 2:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Said it before, will say it again..

The Jews learned very well from the Nazis.

What the hell does that even mean ? Seriously.

Did the gypsies learn as well ? What about the homosexuals ? Or the disabled ? Did they learn as well, or did the Jews simply grasp being gassed, shot, experimented on and shoved into ovens far better than the rest ?

I've heard this said by others, and just wanted to clarify as to what you mean by such a statement.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

NIKI2

Sunday, June 6, 2010 2:12 AM

It's a basically insane statement, as far as I'm concerned. But it doesn't surprise me.

They're at it again, by the way:

Quote:
For the second time this week, Israeli naval commandos seized aid headed for the Gaza Strip, but Saturday's action had a peaceful ending.

The Israeli military said it boarded the Irish-owned MV Rachel Corrie 22 miles (35 kilometers) off the Gaza coast with the compliance of the crew. The cargo ship loaded with humanitarian aid had been heading for Gaza on Saturday in defiance of an Israeli blockade.

Israel said its naval blockade is in place to stop weaponry from reaching militants in Gaza intent on attacking Israel. But many people are incensed that the three-year blockade -- imposed after Hamas took over Gaza -- has deepened poverty in the Palestinian territory. According to the United Nations, 80 percent of Gaza's population depends on food aid.

The voyage of the Rachel Corrie on the heels of the raid put the international community on edge until the events unfolded peacefully on Saturday.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel "used the exact same procedure" aboard the Rachel Corrie as it did on the Mavi Marmara ship, where the raid occurred.

"Today we saw the difference between a sail of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but honor their right to express a different opinion, and a hate sail organized by terrorism-supporting violent extremists," he said.

Free Gaza Movement spokeswoman Mary Hughes sharply criticized Israel's seizure of the ship.

"This is unacceptable to be happening in international waters," she said.

The ship was taken to Ashdod, Israel, where its cargo will be offloaded and screened. People on board will be processed by immigration officials and flown to their countries of origin as soon as possible, Israel said.

As the ship was proceeding to Gaza, the Israeli military said it sent several radio transmissions telling the vessel to change its course before boarding the ship.

A crew member on board the Rachel Corrie who spoke to CNN earlier Saturday said three Israeli ships had been following.

Activists on the ship had said they would surrender peacefully if Israeli forces boarded the boat.

Israel had offered to deliver the aid to Gaza, but passengers rejected the offer, according to a statement from Michael Martin, Ireland's minister for foreign affairs.

Organizers say the ship was carrying 550 tons of cement to help rebuild schools, homes and other buildings destroyed in Gaza.

Irish Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Maguire, who was aboard the ship, said Friday that the Rachel Corrie was also carrying "tons" of writing materials donated by Norway, pharmaceuticals and medical equipment -- including wheelchairs donated by Scotland -- and toys.

"If, as is their stated intention, the Israeli government intercepts the Rachel Corrie, the government demands that it demonstrate every restraint," said Martin. He called on Israel to lift its blockade.

Monday's violence continues to spark official and grassroots rage in governments and streets inside and outside the Middle East, and it has led to even further deterioration of the relationship between Israel and Turkey, the one-time close allies who have grown apart over the Gaza crisis.

In Istanbul, Turkey's largest city, thousands took to the streets to protest Israel's actions in Gaza. Protests were also staged in London, England, and Paris, France.

At the United Nations, the Security Council called for an inquiry into the flotilla raid, and the Human Rights Council voted for a probe, but Israel said it alone -- and not an international entity -- should be investigating.

The MV Rachel Corrie was named for a 23-year-old American woman who was killed in Gaza in 2003 while attempting to keep IDF forces from bulldozing the home of a Palestinian.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/05/gaza.flotilla/index.html?hpt
=T2

I'm getting really, really sick of these assholes, and really, really ashamed of o

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, June 6, 2010 2:53 PM

Niki, although Wulf is a bonehead, that one was an observation many folk have made, that Israels conduct toward Palestine is eerily similar to Germanys toward Poland, at one time, much like an abused child unknowingly emulating that abuse upon their own children, you know ?

As for the aid shipments being seized by Israel - well, as often as they've been caught out dumping the supplies into the sea, burning them, or just outright stealing them, there's a certain reluctance to actually trust them to deliver any of it to Palestine, that being one reason the activists are being so hardnosed about it.

Do you remember what Nigeria did to Biafra ?

Most younger folk don't, I wouldn't either save that the original collective of people who founded Eagle/A-1, who had just come out of some involvement in that, the Biafran "air force" consisted of armed civvie junk and a pair of A-26 Invaders which didn't last out the year, along with whatever mercs they could find willing to fly anything they could get their hands on at almost suicidal odds in order to suppress Nigerian air cover so they could get food supplies in, and they still lost a damned lot of those planes.

It takes a special kind of crazy bastard to fly a DC-3 full of food and medical supplies into a place like that, at least, more than once, and two of the guys who did it were the founders of Eagle/A-1, who personally witnessed the horrors of a starvation blockade from point blank range.

That's also where doctors without borders came from, if I recall correctly, but anyhow, knowing and working closely with folks who saw that kind of thing happen makes me a special kind of hateful to those who would practice it - how soon the bitter lessons of history are forgotten, neh ?

-Frem

AURAPTOR

Sunday, June 6, 2010 2:57 PM

Quote:
I'm getting really, really sick of these assholes, ...

Yeah, me to. Those Islamic nut jobs are a blight on humanity.

** ANYONE ** who thinks the Fed Gov't has done " all it possibly can " in response the Gulf Coast oil disaster, or who thinks Obama isn't lying to us all - I have no use for you. You deserve all the animosity and any vulgar "tone" directed your way. ( Anthony , that includes you, buddy. Sorry )

NIKI2

Sunday, June 6, 2010 5:10 PM

I don't think it has anything to do with the Nazis. Do we really believe the Nazis dreamed it up all on their own? I think societies were doing similar things throughout history; I just think the Jew/Nazi comparison is just too easy and people jump to it.

Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, June 6, 2010 9:54 PM

Well, one reason I don't mind that comparison being out there so much, ponder this...

Eighty years from now, Palestine being all paranoid and doin that shit to some other country ?

We gotta break the chain of abuse before it strangles us all.

-F

MINCINGBEAST

Sunday, June 6, 2010 10:27 PM

I actually dig the inevitable Israeli/Nazi analogies. When they're brought up, often with an utterly affected air of courage and moral clarity, you know the person you're talking to A) has no ideas and B) is a stranger to proportion.

Brilliant work guys.

NIKI2

Monday, June 7, 2010 4:00 AM

Mincing: Word!

Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

JAYNEZTOWN

Thursday, March 24, 2022 11:33 PM

It is rare for me to ever agree with Turkish

stopping the guns for a time would help innocent people

Russia-Ukraine War: Turkey Wants NATO Focused On Ceasefire; Says All Must Act Responsibly
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/russia-
ukraine-war-turkey-wants-nato-focused-on-ceasefire-says-all-must-act-responsibly-articleshow.html

Israel shopping mall attack: Knifeman 'kills four before being shot dead by passer-by'

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/knifeman-kills-four-shopping-
mall-26532175

JAYNEZTOWN

Tuesday, August 13, 2024 6:51 PM

US asks Turkey to prevail on Iran to de-escalate tensions, envoy says
https://www.voanews.com/a/us-asks-turkey-to-prevail-on-iran-to-de-esca
late-tensions-envoy-says/7740292.html

JAYNEZTOWN

Wednesday, August 28, 2024 3:14 PM

Erdogan facing growing scrutiny over Israel embargo
https://www.voanews.com/a/erdogan-facing-growing-scrutiny-over-israel-
embargo/7750167.html

What Turkey’s Fighter Choices Indicate About Its Air Force’s Future
https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/2024/08/14/what-turkeys-fighter
-choices-indicate-about-its-air-forces-future/

Erdogan says West has ‘duty’ to stop Israel’s war in the Gaza Strip
https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/15391916

JAYNEZTOWN

Saturday, January 4, 2025 2:51 AM

Turkish F-16 fighter jets are hitting Kurdish SDF targets near the Tishrin Dam, northeast of Aleppo.

https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1875294008450412602