Isreal attacks Turkish aid convoy.
POSTED BY: oldenglanddry
UPDATED: Saturday, January 4, 2025 02:51
VIEWED: 7522
PAGE 5 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
I'm not prepared to say that clubbing IDF soldiers under the circumstances was reasonable, anymore than I'm prepared to say that the blockade is reasonable.
I have since watched some of the video recordings of the event and found the clubbings the activists engaged it quite brutal. Of course, it is difficult to judge how heavy the clubs they used were from the distance the video was shot, but they hit people who were down in ways that didn't look like self-defense. The resulting brawl had to necessarily lead to deaths the moment actual guns were introduced.
They definitely attacked the soldiers, but it remains to acertain whether the act of boarding itself (and any preliminary shots aimed at the flotilla) did constitute the initiation of an attack in itself, making the activists' hefty response legally justified, or if not.
I still find it wrong that the Israeli troops boarded the flotilla where they did. The location makes a huge difference to me. And lowering the soldiers onto the ship in this way, into the club-weilding hands of the defending activists was incompetent to say the least, irresponsible and senseless with regards to the danger the soldiers were placed in, pretty much taking for granted the fact that the situation WOULD escalate.
The blame for escalation can not be laid at just one party's feet here.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I do grant the point that it's ridiculous that who is in the right here should be based on something as arbitrary as location.
Personally, my feeling is that the Israelis just wanted to defend their country from gun smuggling, which is understandable (if that's true), and the flotilla just wanted to bring food and medicine to Palestinians. So, if I look at it as both groups had good intentions, then this is just a sad mistake.
I also note that I would really, really appreciate it if Israel stopped MAKING sad mistakes. It'd be good for Israel's image, too, because some people think they're actually doing it on purpose.
I would agree with this post except for one thing...There was a group of Palestinian activists on the one ship where the violence took place. And Israel believed their intentions were bad. I believe they were given a chance to have the cargo inspected and then delivered.
Also, blockades are perfectly legal between combatant nations and intercepting the ships that are known to be heading to break the blockade can happen in international waters. These ships had no problem letting everyone know their intention to break the blockade. However, I'm sure Israel could have stopped the flotilla without boarding them if it wanted to....nets on propellers etc...
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Quote:
Originally posted by CatPirate:
The aid is already flowing. This was gonna happen because the activists aren't peaceful. Clubs and knives against the commandos. Israel lets those boats in here comes more weapons. Just remember the rancher in Arizona complained and complained about those poor humble mexicans now he is dead. There ya go. piratecat
You have a point Catpirate. Israel sends in more humanitarian aid, then those ships carried, every week. And, the activists were not peaceful.
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Phoenix rose
The IDF video is a disconnected string of segments from the attack, edited by the Israelis to create the impression you just posted without ever actually saying it because, of course, they knew better.
The clubbing did not lead to the killings, the killings happened first. The commandos would have kill more of them if they had not halted the attackers by attacking them with clubs. It was a fairly ept counter attack for people who were seriously outgunned. Sure, i'm sure it was brutal, on the other hand, the victims in this case were busy murdering aid workers.
Israel has really screwed itself., it's Muslim neighbors, esp, turkey, are really ticked off, and will not protect it. I suspect racism, hubris, they seem to think that they are an even match for a billion muslims, which is absurd. Supporting this raid is not supporting Israel, IMHO.I support intelligent moves in defense of Israel, this OTOH, is idiocy.
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I think you meant me and not PhoenexRose. 
And I hadn't realized the chronology of the killing vs. clubbing. If this is the case then... the Israeli attack is entirely reprehensible.
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I'm late, and someone might already have mentioned this, but it seems to me it's not as cut-and-dried as it's made to appear. Loth as I am to speak up for the Israelis, as everyone know I blame them AT LEAST as much as the Palestinians, but check this out:Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100601/wl_mideast_afp/israelconflictgaza
Accounts of what happened conflicted. Israeli officials said the commandos acted in self defense after being attacked with clubs and knives, while activists charged that the commandos fired on sleeping civilian passengers.
un_20100601084407
I read this in more than one place. Apparently all the ships but one stopped and let themselves be boarded and inspected. On this one, the minute the Israeli soldiers boarded, they were attacked, according to these reports.
Now, I'm not sure we'll know the whole truth of the incident ever, but it does make me question. Why would only ONE ship be submitted to Israeli attack out of nowhere? Is it possible that one ship WAS carrying something they knew they shouldn't be? Why is (as far as I can tell) nobody here mentioning this?
I'd welcome a thorough investigation, tho' I fear the bias on both sides (and their backers in the UN, US and around the world) will make one impossible.
Just sayin'...
Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off
To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor
To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor
To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor
...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm late, and someone might already have mentioned this, but it seems to me it's not as cut-and-dried as it's made to appear. Loth as I am to speak up for the Israelis, as everyone know I blame them AT LEAST as much as the Palestinians, but check this out:Quote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100601/wl_mideast_afp/israelconflictgaza
Accounts of what happened conflicted. Israeli officials said the commandos acted in self defense after being attacked with clubs and knives, while activists charged that the commandos fired on sleeping civilian passengers.
un_20100601084407
I read this in more than one place. Apparently all the ships but one stopped and let themselves be boarded and inspected. On this one, the minute the Israeli soldiers boarded, they were attacked, according to these reports.
Now, I'm not sure we'll know the whole truth of the incident ever, but it does make me question. Why would only ONE ship be submitted to Israeli attack out of nowhere? Is it possible that one ship WAS carrying something they knew they shouldn't be? Why is (as far as I can tell) nobody here mentioning this?
I'd welcome a thorough investigation, tho' I fear the bias on both sides (and their backers in the UN, US and around the world) will make one impossible.
Just sayin'...
Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off
To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor
To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor
To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor
...so much for "together"...this, instead, weakens us...
For the first time I have to agree with you. Happy to see you seeing through media lies and asking questions.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Phoenix rose
The IDF video is a disconnected string of segments from the attack, edited by the Israelis to create the impression you just posted without ever actually saying it because, of course, they knew better.
The clubbing did not lead to the killings, the killings happened first. The commandos would have kill more of them if they had not halted the attackers by attacking them with clubs. It was a fairly ept counter attack for people who were seriously outgunned. Sure, i'm sure it was brutal, on the other hand, the victims in this case were busy murdering aid workers.
Source, or suspicion? I'm curious if this is one of those things you "just know."
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Hello Niki,
I agree that we will never know what happened. Nobody with access to the unfiltered evidence is unbiased.
I think if the Israelis had found contraband of an intriguing sort on that boat, it would have been mentioned in the same breath as, "We acted in self defense" as in "We acted in self defense, and then we found rockets aboard, explaining why they were so hostile."
Everyone should realize that when someone blatantly moves to run a blockade, they are provoking. They are essentially daring the blockaders to do something. I am positive that the blockade runners in this case were hoping that Israel would do something to make them look bad.
In the tension of the boarding, anyone could have been the first to commit violence. And once it starts, it bursts like an uncontrolled conflagration.
All of this? All of this was known before one helicopter ever left its pad. So we ask ourselves, "What Would We Do, knowing all this?"
It's easy to arm-chair quarterback, but I have my list.
1) Do it in territorial waters, after a technical breach had been made that could not be denied.
2) Do it with coast guard vessels, and not He-Man air drops from helicopters.
3) Equip all persons involved with less-lethal alternatives since you are essentially dealing with civilians in a 'riot' type situation.
4) Have ways to stop the ships if they are non-compliant that does not involve killing people.
5) Document the event from start to finish so that if trouble does develop, a continuous film of the operation will show the good conduct of the blockaders.
I think if the U.S. had conducted this operation, we would want our government to have done these things against an aid convoy (if we were to do anything at all.)
--Anthony
"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor
"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma
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I like the line taken by the Daily Mash:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/israel-just-making-it
-easier-for-guardian-readers-to-look-good-201006012778/
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