Help me - I'm confused by racial labels
POSTED BY: pizmobeach
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 9, 2023 16:59
VIEWED: 9570
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Is Obama a "Black President?" "African American?" "White?"
I always thought it was odd and even a bit white elitist that if someone had mixed parents, one white and one black, they were called Black or African American - why that and not white? A person only seems to be white if both parents are white, like just having some African blood disqualifies them somehow. Why is Obama considered Black and not White if his parents are split?
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Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...
If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.
Black/white= black
White/hispanic= hispanic
Asian/black= black
Asian/white= Eurasian.
Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth
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What the fuck is "lowest blood"?
Where do you even come up with this shit, and how is it you DON'T think you're going to get called on it for handing out utter and complete crap like your "lowest blood" theory?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...
If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.
Black/white= black
White/hispanic= hispanic
Asian/black= black
Asian/white= Eurasian.
Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth
Typical empty response - if you want to antagonize libs get a better riff, this one's old.
Wait - olive branch - do you mean "least" and not "lowest?" Pls help my liberal bleeding heart want to feel good about you Woof...
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I don't think he's *agreeing* with it, just pointing out how a lot of our social consciousness works whether we like it or not.
I don't subscribe to it, nor may you - but a lot of folks do, and yes, it's asinine.
To this day when I write a report I wince at the need to describe people by race, and a large part of me wants to write "Young male, shade sixty, 5'8" 140lbs..." instead - but no one would know WTF I was talkin about it, sadly.
-F
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Sorry, Frem, but I've gotta call BS on this one.
Wulf uses terms like "lowest blood" and says "this the true answer" - which to me sounds exactly like the stuff the neo-Nazi assholes spew.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't think he's *agreeing* with it, just pointing out how a lot of our social consciousness works whether we like it or not.
I don't subscribe to it, nor may you - but a lot of folks do, and yes, it's asinine.
To this day when I write a report I wince at the need to describe people by race, and a large part of me wants to write "Young male, shade sixty, 5'8" 140lbs..." instead - but no one would know WTF I was talkin about it, sadly.
-F
I can't tell if he's being genuine, or a contrarian or just enjoying the attention. I think you are generous about Wulf's intentions, and maybe even naive (if that's possible). But you have your own reasons. He's just *young* in my book, and that's no problem, just the way it is.
For the sake of perspective, I try to make it a habit of thinking of things 25 years ahead looking back. As in, what do we think of the 80's now? In 25 years are we going to be thinking the same way about race? And I do not have any naive notions about what it may be - probably no different. But it may be that we are honest about the make up - someone who is Fiddy Fiddy is every bit as much correct to call themselves White as they do to have the MSM call them Black.
No way we'll never be color blind, but losing negative associations because of color? Why not?
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Wull, Wulf's not far from the racist truth of these things as I've come to know 'em. Folks of one race often see anyone with mixed blood as being properly a member of the other race, they don't trust them, ostracize them as "half-casts."
So racist whites see anyone who's half black as black. This goes back to the old days of anti-miscegenation laws in this country that stated that anyone 1/8 African or more by blood was legally black. I've seen black people turn around and ostracize their half-white children as not "really" black, not trustworthy by virtue of their genetic make-up. Native Americans I've seen can also be strongly prejudiced against half-white/half native children. Interesting that whites ostracize children with what they consider "inferior" blood and some other races ostracize half-white children as being tainted with the blood of the oppressor.
So, yeah, it's an uneasy form of de facto submission to some pretty archaic and discredited values that Obama be considered "black" in casual conversation in this country. I think he can say that though, because it is his "blackness" that is at issue so much of the time after all. His whiteness, not so much. And interestingly, it's been black friends of mine who have been most likely to emphasise that Obama is not black. We have a window on the trials and tribulations of being mixed-race in America in the person of our President. Also, he allies himself with black culture, speaks as a member of that community more so than as a member of any particular white community in this country. In an ideal world mixed-race children would absolutely have the right to define themselves, ally themselves with the heritage of their choosing.
"White" is such a strange "ethnicity" in this country. As the presumptive most representative "race" of American, it so often seems to be presented as an absence of ethnicity, or some kind of raceless race. Identifiable white American culture, country music for instance, tends to be roundly despised by anyone in this country who wishes to be considered sophisticated or even, in some arenas, intelligent. Is this white self-hatred? In such a climate of white denial, it seems the mixed-race child might gravitate to his or her non-white heritage.
Add to this confusion the brutal history of so-called white pride movements and you get some pretty effed up ideas about race, identity and culture.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...
If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.
Black/white= black
White/hispanic= hispanic
Asian/black= black
Asian/white= Eurasian.
Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth
Uh-huh... Well using terms like 'lowest blood' is pretty much the definition of racism.
I don't whether you really want people to jump on you or not - either way you're coming across as an idiot. This is a difficult subject - too difficult for you. Know your limitations, keep out of this whole subject. My advice. Or expect to get 'jumped on'/shot down like an idiot.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
"White" is such a strange "ethnicity" in this country. As the presumptive most representative "race" of American, it so often seems to be presented as an absence of ethnicity, or some kind of raceless race. Identifiable white American culture, country music for instance, tends to be roundly despised by anyone in this country who wishes to be considered sophisticated or even, in some arenas, intelligent. Is this white self-hatred? In such a climate of white denial, it seems the mixed-race child might gravitate to his or her non-white heritage.
"Raceless race." Damn it if you don't write like DT sometimes... and I mean that in a good/funny/ironic way.
White self-hate? No, at least not for me. The "white group" is so large there are so many reasons and other hate triggers that I really don't think skin color is the reason. That could just be city/country prejudice.
My white friends and I have this joke amongst ourselves: "Damn! We are so tired of white people! We KNOW all about white people. We know what they are going to say and do so how about some people of color?"
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To answer the main question of this thread, my view would be that the label white or black for a half black/half white person is simply determined by what distinguishes them most from society at large. Of course you can refer to them as half-white, but if you want to be lazy and describe things with just one word (which is how words are invented and gain popular use) you would plump for 'black' over 'white' - to be forced to call someone like obama 'white' in a predominantly white society, would be an unnatural, bland and *undescriptive* description I think.
For some wider perspective, I have a half black/half white friend who travelled to Uganda several years ago, and was surrounded with excited calls in the streets from the natives about his presence, that of a 'Muzungu' - 'white foreigner'.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
Wulf babbled:
Ok... Im not being racist in answering this, but this the true answer...
If you are bi-racial, you are considered whatever the lowest blood is in your veins.
Black/white= black
White/hispanic= hispanic
Asian/black= black
Asian/white= Eurasian.
Ok, everyone don't jump on me for this but this is the truth
Okay, I'm second to say WTF is lowest blood? I think Mike said it first. That was my first thought as well.
Having studied genetics, I know that there is a form of genetic dominance due to the number of copies of particular genes you have. This is not Mendelian genetics. It's simply if you have something that has 8z genes, and something that has 0z, and you cross them and get 'z' 100% of the time, you have probalby 4z. Next generation you'll have 2z, and then 1z, but after that you start to get a mix of "no z" again. Given that, I think I can repair Wulf's list with science.
1. First, you left out a race of 1.5 billion people: South Asians.
Genetic dominance, yes, belongs to black ethnic groups, particularly west african. Genetic dominance is a decent part of why subsaharan africa is black, ditto for inner city america.
2. Black is a nonsense definition. You mean to say a member of Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan, or indigenous populations, at least three unrelated races.
3. Any hybrid is 100% of both, since they carry the full genome of both: Obama is 100% east african, and 100% northern european. He's Luo-Germanic, and you don't say that about a lot of people (maybe no one else?) Obama might be an ethnic group of 1. His kids have 1 west african genome (probably 20% european, per african american standard), and 1 Luo-Germanic gene mix.
The proper dominance chart would look something like this:
Okay,
Niger-Congo, black
East Asian (There are different subgroups here)
South Asian
Arabs
Nilo-Saharan, black
Indigenous African
European (There are different subgroups here)
The asian and european genetic derivations aren't nearly as different as the african, the african derivations are more different from one another than are to the rest of the world combined. Barack and Michelle are closer related to Wulf than they are to each other.
I omitted hispanic since they are a eurasian mix, some are strictly asian, genetically, others strictly european genetically, it's a culture, not a race.
I threw in arabs at the last minute, but I think they're pretty low on the genetic dominance order.
I'm sorry if I reversed your order, but that's genetic reality. If any race is "lower" it would be lower in genetic dominance, which would definitely place european last.
As for when that dominant race disappears from the genome, it's whenever the number of genesets that make up the racial characteristic set approaches zero.
For instance, many people would consider Phoebe Cates to be "white" and not "asian" indicating that 1/4 asian is white. Mariah Carey and Paula Abdul are generally considered "white" being 1/8 black.
This was the reason for the 1/8 rule for slaves. It was set specifically for one person: Sally Hemmings. Genetic evidence in the trial showed that in fact Sally hemmings was no part black, and that Thomas Jefferson was an Iranian. However, Hemmings children were sold as slaves along with Jefferson's black slaves, as a result, their children were black. As such, they would be allowed to intermingle only with the other black slave populations, resulting in Jefferson's descendents being black.
This was easy to trace because Jefferson was just about the only genetic Iranian around. The reason for the rule was that prior to 1776, Irish slavery was legal. To keep Miss Hemmings, Jefferson needed to redefine her as black, and created a document to do so. His figuring was that no one would be able to tell 1/8 black from white, and in fact the only descriptions of Sally Hemmings at the time identify her as Irish, which we now know.
Still, 1/4 black would be identifiably black, I think there are a fair number of stars, particularly girls, who fall her
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Just sayin, pointin out folk DO it - ain't the same as agreein with it.
And yeah, Wulf does strike me as tryin to rise above it, which encourages me to offer a hand to help lift, instead of slap him upside the head.
I mean, really - if that's your fashion of tryin to educate someone to a better way, small wonder it ain't goin so well.
I might bonk him on the head here and there myself, but you *might* try pointing it out without the flame and then having the patience to bite your tongue for a lil bit BEFORE resorting to the flames.
Try Reason First.
-F
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Hello,
I think rather than yelling at Wulf, one might observe that his statement is racist precisely because it is this kind of racist thinking that causes race to be perceived as it is.
It's instructive, and I think he meant it to be so.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Asian/black= black
Asian/white= Eurasian.
No.
Asian/white= Eurasian.
Asian= YerAsian
Asian/Black= Tiger Woods
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.
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Im not agreeing with it, but thats how its done.
You could always just say "mixed". Or American.
In Latin countries, there are different words for people of different skin shades. Since most people in these places run the gambit of really dark to really light, they have words describing their coloring. "Coffee" is a good example.
What is ALSO asinine, is trying to call somebody a ______ - American. (African-American, Chinese-American, ect) The only time you are that, is when you are in the middle of transferring your nationality.
It gets really interesting, I suppose, for people who have more than 2 races in their bloodline. Example: Your grandfather was chinese, your father is chinese/hispanic, and your mother is white... Chinese/Hispanic/White...
The whole thing is silly.
ETA: This whole thing also has its roots in the "1 drop" theory, from back in the slavery and colonization days. "If you have one drop of XYZ blood in you, then you are of that race." And yes, it was considered the "lower" blood.
Let me be clear here, Im not agreeing with it, just answering the damn question.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just sayin, pointin out folk DO it - ain't the same as agreein with it.
And yeah, Wulf does strike me as tryin to rise above it, which encourages me to offer a hand to help lift, instead of slap him upside the head.
I mean, really - if that's your fashion of tryin to educate someone to a better way, small wonder it ain't goin so well.
I might bonk him on the head here and there myself, but you *might* try pointing it out without the flame and then having the patience to bite your tongue for a lil bit BEFORE resorting to the flames.
Try Reason First.
-F
Frem - I realized you were doing just that, pointing out the tendancy and not agreeing. I take from your posts that you are a very color blind person - it's about individual behaviour. "There's arseholes on every block."
Wulf? I mostly joke with him because it's up to him to make his own way. Lately though... some of the stuff he's posted... Seriously; guys in skull masks using "Tyranny" and "Freedom" without any substance just to justify their anger? It's pretty damn sad.
I think sometimes he just enjoys agitating for the sake of agitating. He is free to do that and I am free to criticize him for it.
Besides:
"You know the answer to raised voices, and threatening gestures?
YOUR raised voice, YOUR threatening gesture.
Someone pulls a knife on you, you pull YOUR knife.
Yeah, its ugly, its not pretty.
But you meet force with force.
"Thats the Chicago way" lol sorry...
But its still the truth."
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Ok, and I was just trying to answer the damn question.
You asked, so I answered.
I never said I agree with it, (I don't), but giving my opinion/answer.
ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
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Also: A funny quote from the movie "Domino"
------------------------------------------------
Lateesha Rodriguez: Now, as a blactino woman, I believe we deserve our own race category to forge an identity, Jerry. That's how I feel.
Jerry Springer: Did you just say "blactino"?
Lateesha Rodriguez: Yes, I did. I'm a blactino-American.
Chinegro Woman: Wow. Uh, first of all... first of all, you don't even look latino. You look black. You're... You're black. Second of all, I'm of mixed race, and I've struggled my whole life as to whether I'm Chinese or whether I'm black.
Lateesha Rodriguez: Chinegro! What you are is chinegro!
Chinegro Woman: Chinegro?
Lateesha Rodriguez: Chinegro! There you go!
Chinegro Woman: Chinegro?
Lateesha Rodriguez: You are a chinegro!
Chinegro Woman: What the
[bleep]
Chinegro Woman: is chinegro?
Lateesha Rodriguez: That's what you are! Chinegro is you!
Chinegro Woman: That's some bulls...
[bleep]
Chinegro Woman: .
Jerry Springer: OK, as I understand it, you brought a mixed-race flow chart with you. Why don't we bring that out?
[Crowd shouting and booing]
Lateesha Rodriguez: [to a random heckler] How you doin', sugar? All right. I'm gonna call you later. Mwah. All right.
[Crowd laughs]
Lateesha Rodriguez: Take a look at this...
[she unveils the chart]
Lateesha Rodriguez: Blactino, blackasian, hispasian, OK? Now, for the Asian subcategories,
[to the Chinegro woman]
Lateesha Rodriguez: I got you, sister. We have chinegro right here. That's you. Chinegro.
Chinegro Woman: That's not a word! That's not a word!
Lateesha Rodriguez: Yes, it is, sister. We have koreagro. Japegro, OK?
[Crowd laughs]
Lateesha Rodriguez: Chispanic, koreaspanic, and last but not least, check this out, y'all... japanic.
[Crowd cheering]
Lateesha Rodriguez: That's how I flow with it!
Jerry Springer: Do you believe the government should recognise these racial subgroups?
Lateesha Rodriguez: Yes, Jerry, I do.
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So let me ask you guys... are you disagreeing with what I've said?
Or just because it was ME who said it?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok, and I was just trying to answer the damn question.
You asked, so I answered.
I never said I agree with it, (I don't), but giving my opinion/answer.
ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule
We cross posted so I missed you last post - happens.
You have a *history* and saying "lowest" was either carefully chosen to incite or kind of boneheaded. You ain't stupid so I went for the first one.
The whole thing is silly until I hear the MSM using the labels - a lot of people live by what they say.
Heh - that's funny bit. Add Blackenese to the list - I'm sure there are more.
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Quote:
Let me be clear here, Im not agreeing with it, just answering the damn question.
OK, I'll retract my 'idiot' remarks then. My new advice - as someone who likes to dance so much in the zone between political corectness and racism, try to be clear from the start.
Heads should roll
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Btw,
I am of the opinion that so called "diversity" is more about divisiveness than respect. (I could go on a long rant about this, and why I believe liberals and Democrats are just as, if not more, racist than conservatives. But maybe later.)
So my question is:
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?
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Btw,
I am of the opinion that so called "diversity" is more about divisiveness than respect. (I could go on a long rant about this, and why I believe liberals and Democrats are just as, if not more, racist than conservatives. But maybe later.)
So my question is:
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?
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Quote:
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?
Because it's descriptive - it says something about the person's heritage, and family history, possibly their culture, values, upbringing, their physical attributes etc. Once we've stopped discriminating based on these differences we can start celebrating the variety we have.
Colour-blind is bland, and not for me.
Heads should roll
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How is it descriptive if you've never been to China, or Africa? And the last time your family was in those areas was over 30 generations ago?
It doesn't make sense.
I think, the real truth, is it just sounds "better" to some people than saying white, black, asian ect.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
ETA: This whole thing also has its roots in the "1 drop" theory, from back in the slavery and colonization days. "If you have one drop of XYZ blood in you, then you are of that race." And yes, it was considered the "lower" blood.
Thanx for making the point I was going to make, but never got to.
This standard has been used at various times and places of discrimination.
" You got one drop, you're one of THEM."
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Quote:
How is it descriptive if you've never been to China, or Africa? And the last time your family was in those areas was over 30 generations ago?
It doesn't make sense.
And American Irish - we should refer to them just as 'american' as well?
You're taking the colour out of things - a lot of people are proud of their heritage, and derive a sense of identity from it. Just be careful about denying them that - otherwise... I have no issue with people choosing to be colour-blind themselves.
Quote:
I think, the real truth, is it just sounds "better" to some people than saying white, black, asian ect.
Hmm, perhaps.
Heads should roll
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But if your "heritage" was some 10 generations ago, meaning that your family has been American for at least 100 years.... how does that make sense?
I just think its more about divisiveness than anything. A way of making yourself feel better about yourself.
A way of saying; Well at least I'm not THEM.
Its stupid. We should focus on the American culture, focus on being proud of THAT.
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EDIT: Nevermind, I don't think this added much.
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Quote:
But if your "heritage" was some 10 generations ago, meaning that your family has been American for at least 100 years.... how does that make sense?
I just think its more about divisiveness than anything. A way of making yourself feel better about yourself.
A way of saying; Well at least I'm not THEM.
Its stupid. We should focus on the American culture, focus on being proud of THAT.
Hmm, interesting. I'm sure you have a point, but also think you're taking some colour out of things. I'm glad that you maintain that American culture can be for all races though. Anyway, be back later.
Heads should roll
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Just as an observation, you keep saying things like "you're taking some colour out of things", and "being colour-blind is a little bland"....
So, besides the UK spelling of color, is there anything else to it?
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Just as an observation, you keep saying things like "you're taking some colour out of things", and "being colour-blind is a little bland"....
So, besides the UK spelling of color, is there anything else to it?
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Um, yeah, culture is an important and vital part of most people's lives, and it tends to be tied to race. Some people even "adopt" a culture to fill this need. It's a cornerstone of a shared sense of community.
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Yes, but what culture?
Do you really think the Italians here (not all mind you, but some) who wear track suits, and 15 gold chains, have ANYTHING to do with the Italians in Italy?
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Culture can become diluted, and may no longer resemble the culture of the mother country, but so long as culture continues to provide a formative influence on perception and lifestyle, it can still be considered a culture, yes. History, also, is a part of the culture of certain groups.
A similar question you might ask is how much in common does Kwanzaa or the practice of voodoo have to do with the original African influences? Perhaps not much, I'd have to research further, but the people who honour these practices still find it meaningful and a part of shared sense of community. It does not lessen their practices to be a derived form of an original so long as the cultural connection is still valued.
You also have to recognize that certain types of family structure are tied to cultural influence. For example, Latino/Chicano family structure, owing to the heavy influence of catholicism and the concept of patriarchs, tend to be multi-generational.
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Ok.
Let me ask a question then, without being snarky... How does celebrating our diversity, claiming we are African/Indian/German ect help this country?
How does being divided by ever smaller circles lead to a better society?
For me, Im an American first.
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Are you, though? Do you identify with all other people who consider themselves American? What does being American mean? Do other people have a different definition of what being an American means?
Could it be that different cultures and lifestyles might lead to different interests, different skill emphasis, different perceptions and problem solving methods? That those assets might be more useful than homogeneity?
You just describe everyone as a nationality, and expect that there won't be conflict. This is true in America, where there is obviously still conflict between mainstream culture and cultures trying to resist assimilation, and this is true in the Middle East, where tribes that consider each other enemies have been thrown together and consider themselves a nation.
This isn't unity. It's playing factions off each other. Again and again, reinforce people trying to screw each other over.
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Yes, but when we are so divided as a people, both by design and by desire, we lose the strength of true unity.
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There never was true unity. There never WILL be true unity.
I've seen what the visionaries want for "unity" and I want nothing to do with it.
Different cultures can cooperate to accomplish goals. But unity in the sense of a national government is only effective when everyone within it are the same culture. To group together many different cultures and then expect them to abandon their cultures for a mainstream is wrong, Wulf, it's forcing beliefs on people.
One powerful goal may inspire many different culture to work together, but eventually that "union" will fall prey to infighting. This is inevitable.
To bring an end to the corruption and power hierarchy and abuse that government and corporation represent, we will need to unite, you have no objections from me there. But I can only hope we can remain united long enough to accomplish the goal. I doubt we will.
And if we do, the very last thing I want to see is an implementation of the exact same garbage that laid the groundwork to get us into this mess in the first place.
The founding fathers were not our friends. They were rich aristocrats who thought that together they had the brains and smarts to affect region-wide and international policy. Because of their precedence and the system they constructed, who is in charge of this country? Why, rich aristocrats, or the puppets they let climb the ladder.
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I agree, actually.
But, I would settle for people to say,
"Yeah, Im Indian, Italian, ect... but Im happy and proud to be American. Dammit, we are free. And while Im might like my kimchi, my loyalties lie with the people of my homeland, America. Lets all work together to make it as free and as strong as possible"
Yeah. Im naive.
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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Yes, but what culture?
Do you really think the Italians here (not all mind you, but some) who wear track suits, and 15 gold chains, have ANYTHING to do with the Italians in Italy?
Okay, let's look at it another way:
Do you really think that Southern rednecks who fly Confederate flags have ANYTHING to do with the actual Confederate States of America?
If you're interested in uniting us as "Americans" first, shouldn't you also want to do away with useless crap like that, the holdovers from a war long ago fought and lost, and the losers who still cling to the flag of a defeated, traitorous nation?
As for your "lowest blood" garbage, you don't come across as someone who doesn't believe in that, especially when you preface your remarks by saying things like "this is THE TRUTH". You only backed away from it when people called you on it, then claiming NOT to believe it, after earlier claiming that it was the TRUE answer as to why these labels get used: because people get labelled by the - in YOUR words - "lowest blood" in their ancestry.
You'll do a lot better job of convincing us that you're not a racist, a skinhead, a neo-Nazi, or a white supremacist if you'd stop quoting from their playbooks.
Just sayin'.
Oh, and please remind me again - How does it "unite" us all as Americans to say things like "Black people just can not give gifts." You weren't referencing AMERICANS when you said that, just black people. How's that helping? In a world where YOU claim that actions mean more than words, what are YOU doing to stop racism? Because your WORDS are only exacerbating it.
Mike
Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black
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Why do you emphasize this connection to a large nation of many cultures? Is it strength of numbers?
If so, what do you mean to accomplish with your strength of numbers? Intimidation of other similar patchwork nations? National defense/war?
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The "lowest blood" stuff was NOT my idea.
Thats just how its done, and I've said many times (now 5+ and counting)that I dont agree with it.
I was just answering a question.
And as for the rest, its called humor.
"You'll do a lot better job of convincing us that you're not a racist, a skinhead, a neo-Nazi, or a white supremacist if you'd stop quoting from their playbooks."
Lol Wow. A question was asked, and I answered. But thats playing from the neo-facist race book? Cause I called out the truth of things? Cause it doesnt sit to well with your pre-defined ideas of truth? I never claimed to be PC, and I never WILL be PC (PC being first used by the Nazis)
Jeeze....
Well, how about this then? Gun control is racist, in that it was originally designed to keep blacks from getting guns after the Civil War.
And it was drafted by Northerners.
Now, a show of hands...
Who here thinks Im a "skinhead, a neo-Nazi, or a white supremacist"...
Im actually curious.
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"Why do you emphasize this connection to a large nation of many cultures? Is it strength of numbers?
If so, what do you mean to accomplish with your strength of numbers? Intimidation of other similar patchwork nations? National defense/war?"
Because right now, there are hundreds, if not thousands of little mini-camps fighting each other.
And nothing gets better.
I've finally realized what some here have been saying. If we really want things to change for the better, we all have to pull TOGETHER.
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Wulf
1. No, it's not because you said it, people have a lot of patience with you because...
2. Frem is right. You're trying. Sometimes you're trying in the other sense ;)
3. My illustration of genetics is the real world dominance of "physicial" phenotypes. This *does* effect the way we perceive people. We judge people by their physical phenotype and classify them. There was an interesting article in this week's Newsweek suggesting that this is instinctive and not cultural.
4. If there are more copies of phenotypical genes then they will dominate.
5. Also, populations with larger genetic diversity are easier to tell apart (it's easier to tell one frenchmen from another than one serb from another, because there's a more diverse genepool) <-- this *also* effects the way we see people.
6. Africa has a more diverse gene pool than anywhere, but African-Americans overwhelmingly come from a much smaller portion of africa than European americans do from europe, this *also* effects the way we see people.
7. We learn our differentiations socially by the characteristics that we see around us. If there's a wide variation in hair and eye color, then we include that. I have friends who have identical twins that very only in nose and chin shape, subtle face curves. As a result, the non-twin sibs identify people primarily by subtle face curves.
8. In essence what I'm saying is there are real physical differences that we use to classify people, which is a mix of instinct and social.
Wulf,
9. Cultural diversity adds a lot to our country, just as it does to Europe: Many ways of doing things result in many divergent thought processes which lead to many different types of solutions to problems. We are better off for it.
10. The converse is not true: a so called multicultural melting pot would again become "one way of doing things" it would just be different from the previous way, but probably give no added benefit to a society.
Byte
1. Kwanza is a totally artificial creation of African Americans, but then again, so is Rap Music. This is African American culture, and has nothing to do with Africa, but is just as valid as any other constructed culture, like Israel, which I consider completely valid. You don't need a 5,000 year history to have a culture. Scientology is a valid religion, everything starts somewhere.
2. Voodoo is an actual african tradition, and dates back at least 5,000 years in West Africa. I find it very useful personally because I do a lot of research into herbal medicines, and Voodoo has saved my life, and could save thousands of others. I fully intend to become a voodoo witch doctor, I think this is a perfectly respectable occupation. This is not really comparable to Kwanza, because it's more than a cultural ritual, it's an actual science.
Everyone,
America should abandon uniform conformity. We are much better off with mexicans and chinese and africans, african americans, jews, catholics, the amish, etc. Variety is the spice of life.
To reiterate:
Many ways of doing things result in many divergent thought processes which lead to many different types of solutions to problems. We are better off for it.
We also benefit from cultural diversity itself. I like an indian restaurant. I like indian culture. I like having it here. I don't want McSomosa and Tandoori grilled mcChicken sandwich from a corner counter at walmart. I want to go to an indian restaurant, full on. I enjoy the food, and the experience.
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Sorry, but I tho' I hate to, I agree with Wulf. I think it IS more the fact that he brought it up than that it's not true or is bullshit. I don't like the "lowest blood" remark, but that IS how it's perceived in America...the "other", the "stranger", whatever you want to call it, he's right. That may make it wrong, but that doesn't make it not exist.
You can be second or third generation of most of those things, and if your features aren't too representative of your "non-Caucasian" heritage, you can get called "White"--but if they show, some people will ask "where are you from" or "where are your parents from", and among (conscious or unconscious) true racists, that is what they'll see and make judgments on. That's just fact, and I don't see anything wrong with Wulf voicing it. Doesn't mean he BELIEVES it, it's just what he observes, and he's right.
I see further down both he and others said the same thing--I always come in late!
Lots of interesting questions here. I was going to mention that the attitude comes from decades ago, with Mulato and stuff, and that it's true in most societies, but I see that's been covered too. I know when Obama was campaigining, a lot of African Americans said he wasn't Black ENOUGH, and called him "Oreo" (black on the outside, white inside).
I think it's sad we still think this way, and hopefully someday we won't as much...as people's ethnicity gets diluted further and further by intermarriage, hopefully it'll be less so. But as to keeping a non-American heritage, I think it has its pros and cons. Here in CA, the keeping to heritage of Hispanics hinders their melding into the society, but at the same time, if people want to recognize/respect their heritage, I certainly have no right to argue with it. It can go too far, like the maintenance of Sharia law and so forth; I wish there were a middle ground between melding with the culture and maintaining one's heritage.
My mom was a French immigrant, but I don't identify at ALL with French culture. Interestingly, I DO have some genetic things in common with them, which surprised me as my mom was the only French person I knew and didn't pass on anything, but I have observed some things in me which were never taught (consciously or unconsciously, mom was a baby when she came over, and her mother was big on being a "true American").
The fact is, at this point in time people will be viewed as representative of their features; here in America, that means anything but "generic white" will be seen as something else. My friend Choey mentioned the same thing about the absurdity of Obama being considered "Black" when he's only half Black...it's just the way it is.
Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with color-blindness; if someone wants to bring up their heritage, I find it interesting, but it's not how I perceive them.
I disagree, however, that the racism is equal in both right and left wingers. The left may have difficulty dealing with it "correctly" but at least they TRY, while most of the strongly right-wing people are quite open about recognizing race, and often about putting it down (obviously or more subtly). The left hasn't got it perfect, yet, and there certainly are subconscious racist things going on, but on the WHOLE, the left makes more of an effort not to be negative about race.
AND, it's different in different areas. It's true that none of us are truly "American", because that delineation is different in different parts of the country. My brother-in-law and husband came from Idaho; out there it's Native Americans; the racism Curt had was very obvious. It shocked me, as here in CA we revere (in thought at least!) our Native Americans. In Florida, I imagine there's more prejudice against Cuban, etc., and here in CA, it's more against Hispanics, and more recently, Muslims as we have a large Muslim population.
There's a question for you: what is the racism where YOU live? What culture is it most obviously reflected by? I'll be the answers reflect as man
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America should abandon uniform conformity. We are much better off with mexicans and chinese and africans, african americans, jews, catholics, the amish, etc. Variety is the spice of life.
Of course, but identifying your national heritage as American should be a source of pride.
Im tired of people thinking that America is this all you can eat buffet, where you come in load up and then bounce out. Or as a train way-station.
And btw, if its some much better in the old-country, whyd you come here?
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Wulf
I think you went past a very important question: do you identify with ALL 'Americans' ?
Because if you don't, then you are asking people to do something which you yourself won't do.
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Silence is consent.
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Well, simple.
E Pluribus Unum.
Out of many... One.
The folk on my block come from different heritages and cultures, but they're my block - which is perhaps not the same as actively choosing them, but I do tolerate them well enough.
And then there is the community of site three, which is my chosen people, my "Tribe" or Nakama, just as I am their chosen knight errant to watch over them while they sleep.
Far as color is concerned, I'm still a big fan of the Bulworth theory, everyone get busy with someone till we're all the same shade!
Family of Choice
http://www.udel.edu/PR/Messenger/97/2/family.html
Nakama
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Nakama
Quote:
Simon: Captain, why did you come back for us?
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Yeah, but you don't even like me. Why'd you come back?
Mal: You're on my crew. Why are we still talking about this?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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"Sorry, but I tho' I hate to, I agree with Wulf."
Jesus. Don't hate it too much.
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"Wulf
I think you went past a very important question: do you identify with ALL 'Americans' ?
Because if you don't, then you are asking people to do something which you yourself won't do."
Yeah I do. And I see where you are going with this...
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Because right now, there are hundreds, if not thousands of little mini-camps fighting each other.
The only way to stop the camps from fighting over what to do is to exterminate the differences. Otherwise there will always be disagreement.
Quote:
And nothing gets better.
It's not because of the existence of different groups that nothing gets better, or even the usual arguments that are involved with negotiation and progress, but because some people expertly know how to set those camps fighting at each other to a stalemate.
Quote:
I've finally realized what some here have been saying. If we really want things to change for the better, we all have to pull TOGETHER.
I can agree with that, but I don't think what you're suggesting is the way to do it. You say unite and you mean in EVERYTHING, under one common idea, put aside all differences and even reject all differences so that fighting stops.
It'll get your job done, but at what cost? What will you have set up in creating this system? People who are all alike are easily controllable and easy to manipulate.
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Of course, but identifying your national heritage as American should be a source of pride.
Why?
Why should I take more pride in being born within some artificial geo-political borders than I do in the culture and community I was raised in? Being "American" doesn't MEAN anything.
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Im tired of people thinking that America is this all you can eat buffet, where you come in load up and then bounce out. Or as a train way-station.
And btw, if its some much better in the old-country, whyd you come here?
Jobs. And you'll find that most people consider how they earn money with less affection than they do the family and the culture they may have left.
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In any case... has the question been answered?
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"Yeah I do."
Actually, no you don't. There are many 'thems' you specifically do NOT identify with. There is YOU. And there is THEM.
I also find it ironic that you, who feel righteous in hating groups (groups BAAAAAD individuals GOOOOOD), now claim to not actually divide people into groups. BTW, that whole hating-groups-of-people-thaang is something we have all frequently see you do. YOU are the biggest flogger of group identity here.
It's even more delicious that you, who claim to hate groups, want us all to join one BIIIIIIG faceless group - americans.
You are seriously confused. One thought of yours can't help but run high speed head-on into another. And it all starts with the idea that 'they' were in total control of your life --- and theirs. That the only racism that exists is that 'they' think of themselves as black. If only 'they' wouldn't do that, then it would all disappear.
So, here's how I'm guessing it started. You didn't like being trapped in a bad place with an alcoholic mother (and, if I recall correctly, no father around). You didn't get along with the neighborhood kids either, 'cause you were a jerk. When you went crying to your mother, she - needing to blame someone who was not her - said 'you don't need them anyway, we're better than they are.' And you, needing to blame someone who was not either her or you, went along.
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Silence is consent.
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Frem... a little help here.
Rue is pushing it and Im about to get ghetto on her.
ETA: Ok, Im going to sign off for a bit.
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There's a difference between "America should abandon uniform conformity" and coming together on some important things while maintaining our individuality. We can conform to what's necessary for the best and still treasure our heritage.Quote:
Bingo. It's not about differences--or wouldn't be as much--it's about people teaching and using differences. Parents teach children to be racist, because they fear the "different". Leaders use differences to bolster the "us v. them" mentality to attain their own agendas.
because some people expertly now how to set those camps fighting at each other to a stalemateQuote:
That's a silly statement...the vast majority of people who come here have to deal with the problems of existence the same as the rest of us; the number who "load up and then bounce out" are the vast minority, and even fewer consider it a train way-station!
Im tired of people thinking that America is this all you can eat buffet, where you come in load up and then bounce out. Or as a train way-station.
And btw, if its some much better in the old-country, whyd you come here?
Of COURSE it wasn't better in the old country, that's why most people come here--for a chance at a better life. That doesn't mean they leave the heritage they loved and grew up in behind, nor should it.
I hate agreeing with you, Wulf, because I decry many, if not most, of what you say; your black-and-white world isn't something I admire; I'd respect you if you addressed reality with real, attainable objectives, not just "heroic", Hollywoodized rhetoric.
Prime example is stating you agree with ALL Americans. It's physically impossible. I've long held that America is too big to be one country for just that reason. It's good that it IS one country, because the opposing views allow us to moderate the most extreme ones, but it also makes it difficult because differing views can cancel each other out.
You can't agree with all Americans. Some Americans are proud of our country and see no need to change it. Some want revolution, some want anarchy. Some are racist and totally convinced of their beliefs; some want to do away with racism. Some believe in equality; some believe those who need help should just disappear. Some are rabid Republicans; some equally rabid Democrats. To say you agree with "all" Americans just simply isn't possible. That's a perfect example of why I hate to agree with you.
Byte:Quote:
But it can never happen. Human nature makes THAT impossible, too. We can agree on some things, but there will always be differences. Just the attitude people have in a small, rural farming community toward those in a skyscraper-dominated, 40-hour work week and suit urban mentality, and vice versa, makes it impossible.
The only way to stop the camps from fighting over what to do is to exterminate the differences. Otherwise there will always be disagreement.Quote:
Right on. It used to be that our two houses in government had opposing views, but compromised and negotiated to the point where things got done--however slowly. Now the parties are so polarized that they cancel one another out, and "progress" falls by the wayside--at least progress that enhances the lives of the majorty of Americans.
It's not because of the existence of different groups that nothing gets better, or even the usual arguments that are involved with negotiation and progress, but because some people expertly now how to set those camps fighting at each other to a stalemate.Quote:
Yes, it does. It's not just a matter of geopolitical borders, it's about a society and how it works and what it reveres and so much more. It means we accept the things our nation does and gives us, and it means responsibility for how our nation behaves and whether we blindly accept it or not.
Why should I take more pride in being born within some artificial geo-political borders than I do in the culture and community I was raised in? Being "American" doesn't MEAN anything.
Jo came here without a thought
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Just as an observation, you keep saying things like "you're taking some colour out of things", and "being colour-blind is a little bland"....
So, besides the UK spelling of color, is there anything else to it?
Sure, I always mean something by what I say. Let me explain by way of an example:
If a friend came back from America talking about his new American girlfriend, I would like it for them to be descriptive. If the girl was a chinese american I would want him to say so - it would give me an immediate impression of what she looked like, and as well a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits etc.(i'm not an expert on american society but I imagine their are ethnic trends). All these aspects are 'colour'.
If however my friend neglected to mention this exotic heritage, I would wonder at his blandness of taste.
Heads should roll
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Quote:
it's about a society and how it works and what it reveres and so much more. It means we accept the things our nation does and gives us, and it means responsibility for how our nation behaves and whether we blindly accept it or not.
Replace society and nation with the word culture.
I already have a culture. I do not consider it inherently American. If my culture is not American, what is American?
I don't think there is an answer, any definition for what "Being American" is. Therefore, I think "being American doesn't mean anything."
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That's interesting. I see by "color" you mean "colorfulness" rather than "race". It's an interesting concept...would we rather get an immediate impression of someone (which, in truth, also is a prejudgment of them) than decide for ourselves if/when we meet them, or if/when the person goes on to describe the things you mentioned? I think I'd prefer the latter...descriptive or not, a statement of a person's heritage can lead to misunderstandings.
Yes, of course there are ethnic trends, and much more! Given how many there are in just a small country like England--which could fit inside a number of our states--it's a given. And those ethnic trends don't necessarily reflect anyone's "heritage" or race, either. Nope, I'm for getting to know the person by more detailed description of the PERSON, not the race, 'cuz I'd jump to conclusions otherwise and have prejudgments of who the person is, their values, religion, politics, etc.
For example, if someone described my favorite supervisor a while back as "Black", it would give a very wrong impression. She moved here from New York, and had very New York attitudes; she was buddhist, not Muslim; her culinary tastes were definitely Italian; her taste in art was very avant garde; her "culture" and manner of speech, body language and gestures were far more "white" than "black"...so just saying I had a "black girlfriend" would give all sorts of wrong impressions.
Nope, gotta reject that theory once I think it through.
________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts
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I hate agreeing with you, Wulf, because I decry many, if not most, of what you say; your black-and-white world isn't something I admire; I'd respect you if you addressed reality with real, attainable objectives, not just "heroic", Hollywoodized rhetoric.
Well, that's where show-n-tell comes in, don't it ?
Instead of stomping on the dream, why not work together at accomplishing it, enlighten, educate ?
Hell, I'm not all *that* good at it, but at least I'll try, yanno, instead of backhanding someone for lacking, seems counterproductive to me.
I think the key to handling cultural diversity is indeed Nakama and Family of choice, and the key to expanding our personal care circles or monkeyspheres is rather than a single circle, a set of expanding rings.
Closest is of course your Nakama, your buddies, folk you'd trust with your woman, your beer, your money - then friends and neighbors, your neighborhood, and so on and so forth till you've got the whole world, although at less intensity.
I mean, I'll risk getting shot at for my Nakama - for someone up a creek in a country far away, not so much, but it don't stop me from sparing at least a LITTLE effort (remember the office supplies to RAWA) so much as I can accomplish without much risk or effort, and the halfass support of a lot of folk does add up over time.
Another concept I've been workin on for quite a while is temp-extension, the ability to temporarily yank someone into your monkeysphere for ten minutes, an hour, a day - however long it's needful to associate with them, and then let them drift on out of it at the end of that time.
Not quite convinced of it's benefit yet, but it does seem to be one manner of forcibly overriding an "other" reaction which drags down every social interaction with them and leads to misunderstanding and upset.
So far I've only had one or two (albeit quite memorable) folk who really didn't WANT to be in my monkeysphere, even for a second, but I couldn't tell ya the why - I did respect their will about it though.
"WE" can be the sum of infinite combinations, remember that.
Funny thing about violence in respect to activism, I'll share an actually uttered quote from my past with you, without context, and let you make of it what you will.
"Uh huh, you got six bullets, there's fourteen of us, perhaps you might consider negotiating instead ?"
-F
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"For example, if someone described my favorite supervisor a while back as "Black", it would give a very wrong impression."
Here there are many immigrant families with US born children. To speak of even their children as 'Mexican-American", "Korean-American" etc is quite descriptive, b/c they were brought up straddling cultures, and at least SOME of their heritage is not 'American'.
OTOH, my neighbor, whose family lineage is 100% Filipino but whose upbringing is 100% American, is the quintessential 'Valley Girl'. So to call her Filipina would be very misleading.
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Silence is consent.
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I take it from a brief skimming that none of you are African American or any minority group?
Racial labels are comprised of two components:
1. Self Identification
2. How society looks at you and judges you (prejudice)
1. I am Arab American by most definitions of the label, but I don't identify with Arabs. My family is from Syria originally, spoke Arabic originally, but now we have no connection to Arab culture. My family is also Jewish and though we are not religious Jews, I do identify with our culture and history, so I call myself Jewish American. So, that's self identification.
2. Here in Hawai'i, I'm a ha'ole. It literally means "a person who cannot chant their genealogy", but locals use it as a catch all for anyone with lighter skin color and non-Asian features. They don't differentiate between light skinned people. We are lumped together. Irish, Italian, Greek, Anglo, Swedes, Slavs, etc- any background that might have a cultural or racial separation on the mainland all are 'ha'ole', everyone else is either 'local' or 'Hawaiian' except the Portuguese. They've been here so long they are separate.
Another example of #2 is some of my Hawaiian friends went to university in California and Oregon. There, many of them were seen as Mexican by both people of color and whites. Latinos would come up to them and immediately speak Spanish to them and whites would sometimes ask them about Mexico or say disparaging things about Mexicans at them.
The third most disturbing aspect of #2 is racial profiling. Because of our name (Hajim), my family was harassed after 9/11. You ever been pulled into second or tertiary inspection by the TSA/DHS? For three years, every single flight we went on, we were searched. My kids too. Six flights a year. Six times to secondary. You ever had to watch a stranger take your little kids most treasured items and have to watch your kids cry while a bunch of strangers in uniform take apart their favorite stuffed animal? Try going through that kind of thing 20 times or more. Once we had our luggage pulled off the plane by these guys. Missed the flight. The reason? No reason given 'cept our Arab sounding name is kind of like some on the extended terrorism list.
Racial profiling is much worse for other people than we've ever experienced.
Hope this helps.
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"I take it from a brief skimming that none of you are African American or any minority group?"
Well, there are 'visible minorities' and there are minorities who don't look different from most everyone else.
I take it you mean 'visible minority' ?
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BTW - I knew a guy from PR who, by anyone's visual standards, would have been considered 'black'. He had it all going on - kinky hair, broad nose, full lips etc. (ETA - Oh ! I forgot, dark skin, too.) But he was utterly offended if someone called him black. B/c by god, he was Hispanic !
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Been there done that... at least with the racial profiling on planes...
not to say it was the same thing, but...
Every time I flew, I would get pulled from the line. Im blonde, green eyed, 6"3, but you know.
Gotta keep up appearances.
"NO! We are NOT profiling at all! See?! We pulled this white, relatively large, male from the line!"
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Quote:
I take it you mean 'visible minority' ?
Indeed.
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Quote:
would we rather get an immediate impression of someone (which, in truth, also is a prejudgment of them)
Let me be clear - everything that I refer to as cultural 'colour' is no substitute for (or accurate indication of) quality of personality, intellect or appearance. There are beautiful, charming, intelligent women of all different ethnicities/cultures - and they all derive a certain flavour from their heritage, which may or may not get diluted over the generations... but still to me would be interesting, even in trace form.
Quote:
Nope, I'm for getting to know the person by more detailed description of the PERSON, not the race, 'cuz I'd jump to conclusions otherwise and have prejudgments of who the person is, their values, religion, politics, etc.
Up to you, but if you were one of my friends coming back with a pretty new latino/african/chinese/Irish american girlfriend, and you denied me any ethnic description on principle I would be disappointed and irked with you (as a friend).
Most of the time a person's race is an irrelevant detail (say for their job suitability or something), but sometimes it is an interesting 'colourful' detail.
Heads should roll
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OTOH, my neighbor, whose family lineage is 100% Filipino but whose upbringing is 100% American, is the quintessential 'Valley Girl'. So to call her Filipina would be very misleading.
Not physically.
Heads should roll
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We can stay here and fight amongst ourselves, or we can join together... and fight our way back to the light.
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Either we heal, as a team... or we die as individuals.
Damn... ain't that the truth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Either we heal, as a team... or we die as individuals.
Damn... ain't that the truth.
Everybody dies alone. - Mal Reynolds.
Mike
Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black
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"We can stay here and fight amongst ourselves, or we can join together... and fight our way back to the light."
YOUR light ? What if most people don't agree with your light ?
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Mangolo,
I agree racial profiling is terrible, and just institutionalized racism, there's really no too ways about it. I got harassed after 9/11 as well, fairly seriously, so I think that part of it was just an overdose of paranoia.
As for race, it's interesting you bring it up. I realized I had mental pictures of everyone here. I thought you and Niki were both black.
Wulf as well (okay, that was a joke.) I know what Wulf, Frem and Pirate look like, so I don't have to guess. It never occurred to me that Kathy or Sig might be non-white, but it does now... IIRC they live in a white minority area.
The internet is strangely anonymous that way.
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My eye:
Where I live it is quite a beautiful blend. 30% Hawaiian or Part-Hawaiian, 15% Filipino, 15% Japanese, 15% European descent, and a bunch of other ethnicities.
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YOUR light ? What if most people don't agree with your light ?
Then you DISCUSS, you NEGOTIATE, something which, despite all his trashtalk, Wulf does in fact seem to making his best stab at - and gettin mucha nothin but sweat and regret back.
Yeah, telling someone to siddown and shut up when what they want in their hearts is to make the world a better place for everyone, even if they're going about it in a messed up kinda way - that's NOT a plan imma get on board with, and never will be.
Frankly, I find it offensive.
-F
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Mangolo
Thanks, now I can use your retina scan to steal your identity 
Frem
I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West.
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Mangolo
Thanks, now I can use your retina scan to steal your identity
Frem
I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West.
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"I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West."
Ouch..
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mangolo
Thanks, now I can use your retina scan to steal your identity
Mwahahaha. You only have my iris. You're going to have to go a lot deeper for the retina.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I just give Wulf a rough time because I think he's race baiting to make himself the topic of conversation, sorta like Kanye West."
Ouch..
Okay, that was actually funny.
Mike
Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
YOUR light ? What if most people don't agree with your light ?
Then you DISCUSS, you NEGOTIATE, something which, despite all his trashtalk, Wulf does in fact seem to making his best stab at - and gettin mucha nothin but sweat and regret back.
Yeah, telling someone to siddown and shut up when what they want in their hearts is to make the world a better place for everyone, even if they're going about it in a messed up kinda way - that's NOT a plan imma get on board with, and never will be.
Frankly, I find it offensive.
-F
Then you're no doubt offended when Wulfie essentially tells Rue to siddown and shuddup, yes? Because like it or not, that's what he's been doing every time she asks the uncomfortable questions.
And I'm not against negotiating and discussing these things; first, though, I think the question needs to be asked and considered: "Why do you think that?"
I'd really like to be able to call Wulf a "former racist" one day, and I'm hoping he'll help that happen.
Mike
Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Is Obama a "Black President?" "African American?" "White?"
Our President is whatever he chooses to identify himself. His self identity is more important than what the rest of us choose to call him.
I'd just call him Sir.
___________________________________________________
High Priestess of Pork and Ag-Related Activities of the MYTHICAL LAND OF IOWA
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WULF
Quote:Good question. No idea.
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?
FREM
Quote:Indeed. You have a BIG double standard, Frem. I know that you have a soft spot in your heart for Wulf. That's OK, but don't pretend to be fair about it.
Then you're no doubt offended when Wulfie essentially tells Rue to siddown and shuddup, yes? Because like it or not, that's what he's been doing every time she asks the uncomfortable questions.
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Then if you dont want freedom, you can choose to never leave your house.
Leave my freedoms alone.
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"I'd just call him Sir."
Actually, isn't the correct honorific, "Mr. President"?
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That's probably quite correct.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grizwald:Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Is Obama a "Black President?" "African American?" "White?"
Our President is whatever he chooses to identify himself. His self identity is more important than what the rest of us choose to call him.
I'd just call him Sir.
Good point about how one identifies oneself - from what I've read that is a tough subject for those of mixed parents - who do I relate to? What's my culture?
In this case - our president - I do think it's important how the media labels him, especially given former president Carter's remarks and other opinions of the same.
Frem - I personally think that amongst his better posts Wulf just likes f*cking with liberals, likes to see them twist. I think their bleeding hearts offend him. Fine, have your sport, it's every bit as tiring as those that yell at him.
I do agree with his no-more-hyphens-Americans idea. I have always thought that hyphenated-American was odd (I'm Scotch-German-Irish-American - eh, wha?) and even slightly offensive, "you want to split from the rest of us - even though we're supposedly the land of immigrants, misfits and mutts??" But not having been in a minorities' shoes I gave up worrying about it - too much energy for something I'll never know or understand. I trust that it's sincere and that's enough.
But now? Now actually might be a good time for a silly broad nationalistic gesture, especially if it came from someone like BO - seems like he said that in his big debut speech many years ago...
"Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters, the negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes.
Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America — there is the United States of America. There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America — there’s the United States of America."
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone
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Quote:Thank you, massah! May I have another!?
Then if you dont want freedom, you can choose to never leave your house.
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Wow, KPO, you would be "irked" with me if I said I had a boyfriend and when you met him he was other than Caucasian, because I hadn't mentioned it?
Hmmmm....verrrry interesting....
Ah, wait, there's more to it. You said the delineation was useful because of what it would give you "a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits etc." Yet from what Rue said, describing her as Philippino ONLY tells you what she MIGHT look like (tho' if more than a couple of generations, maybe not even that...?), but nothing about the other things. Yet you focused on the physical characteristics.
I find that fascinating. How would you feel about a friend who told you they had a girlfriend in America, who told you all about their a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits, etc., but didn't mention they were Philippino? Given Rue's example, it could be just the neighbor she's speaking of and none of those might give any indication of her race, yet when you met her in person, the first thing you'd notice (I'm assuming) would be her Philippino features. Would you still be "irked"? Just curious.
Mangolo, my since apologies on behalf of my country...or rather, those in my country who are ashamed of what happened. I know that's not all of us, even all of us here no doubt, but I abhorred it. Mob mentality; lowest possible denominator; and just plain letting fear get the better of one. We have a 7-11 run by a Muslim family where I used to buy my cigarettes. After I head about the various persecutions, next time I went in I asked if they were okay; they said their regular customers were all asking that and helping make sure nothing bad happened to them. I was proud to be a Marinite that day.
On the other hand, there was a restaurant I adored in town called Bamiyan (name of the place in Afghanistan where the huge statue of Buddha was carved into the mountain). It was the only place I could go to get Afghan food, and it disappeared. Dunno if it was harrassment or loss of business, but I sure miss it!Quote:
I think that's a waste of time. Would be a nice gesture, but would mean absolutely nothing to those who hate him, for whatever reason. I don't think we can appeal to ANY part of their nature to convince them to act differently. Gone too far. Can only hope time...but it's a faint hope, for me.
Now actually might be a good time for a silly broad nationalistic gesture, especially if it came from someone like BO - seems like he said that in his big debut speech many years ago...
Dream: You thought I was Black??? Where'd you get that idea...makes me smile. And who is Kathy? Actually, dad had real olive skin which I inherited--I have to work HARD to sunburn, and tan if I look at the sun sideways. Real dark. I've sometimes been asked if I'm Hispanic. Given I can't even speak Spanish, it always made me smile. So who knows? Tho' I know my mom was a French immigrant, all I know about dad is he came from "Back East somewhere"...most likely New York. Maybe I've got something in my heritage...I'd like that.
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Together we are greater than the sum of our parts
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I'd just call him Sir."
Actually, isn't the correct honorific, "Mr. President"?
In general, yes. But there are times when a simple "Yes, sir" or "No, sir" will suffice, such as answering a short, direct question. But for the most part, it's better to err on the side of caution, and address the President as "Mister (or Madame, hopefully one day) President".
So on the day we finally DO get a woman President, what shall we address her as? "Madame President" seems a little too formal, and possibly even a little too... hookerish, if you'll forgive the association.
"Mizz President"? "Missus President"? "Miss President"?
Just wondering...
Mike
Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
WULFQuote:Good question. No idea.
Why do people feel the need to label someone as an African-American, or a Chinese-American? Instead of just American?
FREMQuote:Indeed. You have a BIG double standard, Frem. I know that you have a soft spot in your heart for Wulf. That's OK, but don't pretend to be fair about it.
Then you're no doubt offended when Wulfie essentially tells Rue to siddown and shuddup, yes? Because like it or not, that's what he's been doing every time she asks the uncomfortable questions.
Not exactly what I meant, but you get the general gist of it.
I'm probably harsher on Wulf than I need to be, but sometimes the stuff he utters just takes me aback, and leaves me going, "What the FUCK?!" And it brings out the worst in me.
But what I'm really trying to get at is to get Wulf asking HIMSELF "Why do I think that way? Where did I ever accept that as truth? Why haven't I questioned this?", instead of us having to ask.
If I'm hard on him, it's because I've seen a lot of that before - some of it in myself. And the only way I ever got past it was by questioning it - and the only way I ever learned to do that was by having someone ELSE question it first, and get me thinking about it.
Mike
Old friend charity
Cruel twisted smile
And the smile signals emptiness
For me
Starless and Bible black
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"Then if you dont want freedom, you can choose to never leave your house.
Thank you, massah! May I have another!? "
What? Its true. In the same way that, if you don't like whats on t.v., you can change the channel or turn it off.
So, you don't like people saying stuff you don't agree with, you don't have to listen. You don't agree with carrying firearms, you don't have to... or you don't even have to go outside.
Otherwise, you have no right to impinge on my freedoms as guaranteed by the Constitution.
Like I said, you can always stay indoors with the shades drawn.
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My general observation:
I've seen people, when facing irrefutable facts, even people on this board NOT Wulf, spin stranger and more convoluted yarns to support their crazy notions. Of their own volition, they continued to walk further and further into insanity, no matter how many questions were posed, no matter how many observations were made, no matter how many facts were presented.
It seems to me there are powerful rewarding motivators at work that make people do this.
In time, those may be opposed by negative motivators (I can't go on like this, I'm going to lose something important to me with this) or even more powerful positive motivators (there is a much, much better way) - some kind of reason to change.
MOST people, when dealing with the negative effects of their personal history, recognize them as problems. They've gotten to the stage of negative or more powerful postive motivators. They try to solve them, mitigate them, or at least find ways to avoid them.
But to change, you have to first recognize those things as problems, you have to have motivation to change, and you have to have the resources to do it. Otherwise, it won't happen. And some people are stuck at the first step.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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WULF-First of all, what makes you think I don't like freedom? It may not be the freedom YOU envision, but to me, it is.
Secondly:
Quote:"Freedom?" Or staying indoors with the shades drawn...? Stupid options, badly stated. A false dilemma. It's not helpful.
Like I said, you can always stay indoors with the shades drawn.
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No, you would like to curtail freedoms for EVERYONE. "Sensible" is the new propaganda catch word for this nonsense lately.
I'M saying that YOU, singular, are free to NOT participate in a world, which is enjoying the rights given by the Constitution, if that is how you wish.
I m also saying that you DON'T have the right to curtail MY freedoms for YOUR comfort.
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Quote:
Uh, Rue, remember a long thread we had going about authoritarians?
I've seen people, when facing irrefutable facts, even people on this board NOT Wulf, spin stranger and more convoluted yarns to support their crazy notions. Of their own volition, they continued to walk further and further into insanity, no matter how many questions were posed, no matter how many observations were made, no matter how many facts were presented.
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WUlf- later, 'gator.
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Wow, KPO, you would be "irked" with me if I said I had a boyfriend and when you met him he was other than Caucasian, because I hadn't mentioned it?
I'm less interested in boys.
Quote:
Ah, wait, there's more to it. You said the delineation was useful because of what it would give you "a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits etc." Yet from what Rue said, describing her as Philippino ONLY tells you what she MIGHT look like (tho' if more than a couple of generations, maybe not even that...?), but nothing about the other things. Yet you focused on the physical characteristics.
That was the obvious exception to the rule... plus I was being a little bit flippant. I think there would be more exceptions.
Quote:
I find that fascinating. How would you feel about a friend who told you they had a girlfriend in America, who told you all about their a general inkling of what might be her religion, politics, values, cullinary habits, etc., but didn't mention they were Philippino? Given Rue's example, it could be just the neighbor she's speaking of and none of those might give any indication of her race, yet when you met her in person, the first thing you'd notice (I'm assuming) would be her Philippino features. Would you still be "irked"? Just curious.
It would be weird if a 100% Phillipino person's heritage had no influence on any of these mentioned habits/values, and weird if my friend neglected to mention that Phillipino influence - irksome if he did it 'on principle'.
Quote:
Actually, dad had real olive skin which I inherited--I have to work HARD to sunburn, and tan if I look at the sun sideways. Real dark. I've sometimes been asked if I'm Hispanic. Given I can't even speak Spanish, it always made me smile. So who knows? Tho' I know my mom was a French immigrant, all I know about dad is he came from "Back East somewhere"...most likely New York. Maybe I've got something in my heritage...I'd like that.
This is pretty much what I'm talking about.
Heads should roll
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Ya'll need to have a firm look at your own actions and statements before calling double standard on me, I think.
All too many times, the guy says something debateable or potentially offensive, and just because you got personal issues, or whatever reason you have, you come down on him with a bang not so much for what he's sayin as much as cause it's HIM saying it - and when after biting his tongue through three and four of those before snarking back, do you really think imma call him up short for returning the favor, especially when I did not do so to YOU right off the top neither ?
And since y'all WANT to make an issue of it, I am perhaps not too keen on Rue's bitter little sit-down-shut-up-were-all-doomed-anyway attitude about things, I think it's counterproductive and ineffective to these discussions and wonder what issues behind it are having such an adverse affect on her personally cause despite our often bitter disagreements it strikes me as out of character for her, allright ?
There really isn't a way to handle an issue like this without offending anyone, Wulf is trying to sort though years of racial issues and intolerance, and find a way to cope - turn it around for a moment if you can and look at it from THAT end of the viewpoint - how DO you describe someone without offense, who decides what's offensive and what's not, WHY is this label "ok" and this one "racist" - questions which are not being asked as a form of race baiting, but rather as a form of "Well, ok, now what ?!" from someone who is actively TRYING to climb above their own racism and not being well understood about it cause they're not quite as articulate or confident with their own expression regarding the topic, and still struggling with internal habits which are makin it just that damn much harder when his efforts are met with misunderstanding and snark.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReformedButRejected
Again, PATIENCE - do you think folks overcome two decades of that kinda belief in two weeks, especially when often as not most of their family and associates still believe that way and constantly try to reinforce those beliefs ?
Hell, I *still* go round and round with my niece for using the N-word cause her mother and schoolmates do, which I find *profoundly* offensive to the point where even as hostile and profane as *I* am, that word will NOT come out of my mouth under ANY circumstances whatever.
(yeah yeah, stop laughing, I gotta draw the line somewhere)
Also remember it's not my way to shove someone down a path, just shine a light on it for em, and if they stumble here and there, wait till they ASK for help before stepping into it, it's my way, and y'all should know that by now.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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"I m also saying that you DON'T have the right to curtail MY freedoms for YOUR comfort."
I don't see anyone here looking to do that.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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