The notion of patriotism

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Originally posted by piratenews:
Arrest all the traitors. Let a martial law tribunal find them guilty. Then kill them. Let Satan sort em out.

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That really sounds nice and all man, and you know that I probably agree with you more than most people in here, but who decides who's a traitor?

I'm afraid that if they started doing that, you and I would be the first firefly fans to disappear or die in a mysterious car crash.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Love the graphic, PN..

Like Jack says, the problem with that thought is who makes those decisions.

Also -

Could you other two guys take the religious argument to it's own thread please ?

Not busting on it, mind you - it's fascinating reading, and while unrelated to the topic at hand, deserves it's own thread.

Can ya copy the existing posts to a new topic and continue.. it'd save confusion, and present the debate entire rather than piecemeal.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Where did you get this from? Don't see how anybody could interpret anything I've said anywhere in this way.

Firstly, you mention evolution, so that's probably part of my problem with your original post. I don't believe in God and I don't believe in evolution. I believe that there is a chance that either one or both or neither is the case, so I guess a question worded like this: So when, if at all, will the human race finally overcome this lingering side-effect of its evolutionary past? , as if evolution were fact and everybody (at least everybody who matters) just believes that it is, just really gets under my skin. It's not you man, it's just that this seems to be a general trend that really pisses me off. Maybe I'm not ready to give up on the notion that there really is a God and we're all just a bunch of cute little kids that think we've all figured it out.

If anything, I think we're devolving. Look at the fat moraless idiots all around you and the jokers leading our countries and you'll see what I mean. Maybe you're one of them too, but I suspect not and I'll reserve judgement.

The rest of your post:

While there can be no doubt that tribalism had its merits, the purpose of civilisation is to overcome humanity's less desirable and outdated instincts. Yet this one is still going strong, and in fact is regarded as being virtuous. Am I the only one who finds this strange?

Yeah, I guess there's a bit of evolution in there too.

The entire post just seems to me that you want a one world "civilization" and without any patriotism, I don't see why we wouldn't be a one world civilization. I really don't see any other way to read that initial post.

I didn't suspect that.

About the anarchist, I kinda just threw that in there. I have been labled one before. I guess you didn't think that. Sorry. I tend to ramble... like I'm doing now... stop it....


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... I believe there is a very distinct difference between patriotism and love for one's government and standing behind their decisions.
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Agreed.

Good.... my main point.


Blah..... blah.... seems we agree on most of the rest so no need rehashing.



Ahhhhh yes... Patriotism.

I think you're arguing a point that I'm not trying to make here. I think we haven't seen eye to eye, simply because one of us is on a high dive while the other is on the ground.

For the most part, I agree with your assement of patriotism, except that I don't believe what you're talking about is TRUE patriotism. I believe that this is just the strong emotions that get stirred up in every American when they hear loud drums and see a flag banner behind O'Reilly or whatever counterpart CNN has to him. It's Orwell's "Two Minutes Hate". It's something that can be used to make a public rabid by waving the flag infront of their eyes like a Matador to a bull and then leading them straight into a war and once they've finally woke up to the reaility that they never wanted that in the first place, it's far too late and then they make us feel like assholes and no good hippies for wanting out.

You're right... that kind of patriotism sucks.

Thinking about this from a different aspect, what is a country? What it comes down to is that a country is a division of the planet's crust that forms a cohesive political and administrative entity. So why this intense emotional attachment to something that is nothing more than a political and administrative entity?

I think this is thinking about it from the exact same perspective. I don't believe that this is what America was originally about. Maybe I'm naieve and I've bought other bullshit, but I really believe that the original settlers here that weren't politicians really came to make a new life for themselves that wasn't dictated and micromanaged like it was where they came from (and like it is again

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Originally posted by antimason:
but if youll notice, a 'master race' implies genetic superiority, which is an evolutionary concept;

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It's all evil sciences fault, that's a new one for you. People were exalting the idea that theirs was the master race long before the Nazi's and long before the theory of evolution.

Usually it was based on the idea that 'Our religion is better than your religion'.

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did i say God uses his invisible hand to uphold these rights for people? no.. but that God established these rights, and it is for Gods followers to protect them. without men upholding Gods laws, then just as with the Eyptians(or take your pick of previous empires), slavery(genocide or conquest) becomes relative and rationalized because, (suprise)men are left to the dictates of their own moral compasses

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Though of course Atheists are just as capable of being moral as Theists. In fact I've seen evidence to suggest they're more capable of it. Believe it or not many people don't need the threat of a vengeful God punishing them in order for them to not go out and kill children. Weird concept I know.

Further more this really ignores the whole centuries of holly wars, inquisitions, slavery and intolerance perpetrated by good Christian men. Fact is historically all those things are the norm for Christianity, not the exception, how do you rationalise that if God's people are always upholding Gods law on Earth, unlike those evil sinful Atheists, Egyptians et al?

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the bible didnt start slavery, its a practice that has been with man from the beginning; if you dare to go back to the oldest of cultures, like the Sumarians, theyll say that it was their 'gods' which indroduced slavery TO THEM! you can thank the 'pagans' for that, and similarly it wasnt God behind his peoples captivity in Egypt. see.. people like to blame God for the ills of man.. and then conveniently skip the human conscience and all other worldviews in the process

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Like Christians turning a blind eye to all the ills perpetrated by Christians because Christians are 'good' and it's everyone else that is 'bad'? Listen to what Fletch is telling you, Christians practised slavery, there's no mention of Christians inventing it. Thus your assumption that Christians have always held true to all men are free is utterly false.

You're argument boils down too "because Americans didn't invent the wheel, they don't drive cars".

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do you care to understand the context of those events, or were you just interested in interjecting biased presuppositions

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Well it boils down significantly too:
People that don't do what they're told tend to die.

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i am.. by stating that MEN HAVE GOD GIVEN RIGHTS! i dont see how stating the opposite does us any favors

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Erm, by doing something. Sitting around in a cell telling your cell mates how free you are because God said so would certainly get you out of the cell.

And into a nice padded one.

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which is no suprise, the bible even says that our fight is against "the authorities"

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Jesus was the biggest anti-establishment hippy ever. Funny how his teachings have been used to create one of the biggest and longest lasting establishments ever, ain't it?

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all the incidences of slavery you listed were of men, enslaving other men.. God had nothing to do wtih that. but then.. if there is no God, why is slavery wrong, the majority of those populaces were likely in favor of it; it was probably justifiable right? what right does a slave have?

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Back to the old points, if you're not afraid God will give you a spanking you'll be a bad wittle boy. Personally I don't kill people because I don't want to, not because I'm afraid of being punished.

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More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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I'll just give a brief response, since I've got a hectic few days coming up that I need to prepare for, and I also don't see a reason why we should take this discussion too much further.

Regarding evolution, well yes, I see it as a given. There's enough evidence to support it and it's a sound theory; there's no reason for me to doubt it. Anyway, in the absence of god, I don't see any other way of how different species came about. If you don't see it that way, then that's a completely different discussion. Although I find it strange how one could not "believe" in evolution and also not believe in god. Is there an alternative I don't know about?

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
The entire post just seems to me that you want a one world "civilization" and without any patriotism, I don't see why we wouldn't be a one world civilization. I really don't see any other way to read that initial post.

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Take the "one world" out and you've got my opinion. I think you've understood "civilisation" to mean "culture", which I definitely didn't mean. I meant the intellectual aspect of a society, but I concede that I didn't make this at all clear, and also that the intellectual level is, if anything, regressing because of the dumbing down of society - btw, I think this dumbing down is in no small part because of government, since they know that the more advanced the intellectual level of a society, the more the society will be critical of their government and the more difficult it'll be for the government to instill mindless patriotism and therefore obedience into it.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I think you're arguing a point that I'm not trying to make here. I think we haven't seen eye to eye, simply because one of us is on a high dive while the other is on the ground.

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No, I'm arguing about a point that I was trying to make. I wanted to talk about patriotism in an abstract and more philosophical setting. If you take the pragmatic approach, that's fine but not the discussion I was looking for and communication problems are bound to happen. So yes, I'm on a high dive... because that's where I want to be (not always, just in this thread).

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For the most part, I agree with your assement of patriotism, except that I don't believe what you're talking about is TRUE patriotism. I believe that this is just the strong emotions that get stirred up in every American when they hear loud drums and see a flag banner behind O'Reilly or whatever counterpart CNN has to him. It's Orwell's "Two Minutes Hate". It's something that can be used to make a public rabid by waving the flag infront of their eyes like a Matador to a bull and then leading them straight into a war and once they've finally woke up to the reaility that they never wanted that in the first place, it's far too late and then they make us feel like assholes and no good hippies for wanting out.

You're right... that kind of patriotism sucks.

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There's a thin line between patriotism and it's ugly cousin nationalism, and sometimes I'm not sure where that line is. What you described I'd probably count under nationalism.

EDIT: Actually no, I think you're right and it's a version of what I define to be patriotism. Either way, it sucks.

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Thinking about this from a different aspect, what is a country?...

I think this is thinking about it from the exact same perspective.

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Nah, I don't think it is, but I'm not in the mood to rehash that argument and the one I made before it.

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Patriotism, in my definition is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ideals of freedom and protecting them, even from our corrupt Government.

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That's completely reasonable, but, for the purposes of what I wanted to discuss, not applicable. It's inherently an American point of view (not the part about freedom, but the part about the Constitution and the Bill of Rights), so too narrow for my original intent, and also it's just plain not my definition of patriotism.

I seriousl

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The only rights you have are the ones that you are willing to fight for. The people willing to do the fighting, bleeding, killing and dying for your rights are it's garentors, not God, something is only a God given right if God is willing to get involved to support them. Since history shows that God does not enforce them then they can not be God given rights. God is like the UN in that regard, good at high minded pronouncements not so great at the follow through.

You also missed completely the part about the bible. If the Bible is the absolute word of God and if in it he gives advice about the correct treatment of slaves then he is condoning slavery. It makes no difference who invented it, or if man made it up along with pagan gods. This is the word of the big guy all he has to say is "hey Israelites I made every man free, slavery displeases God, stop it." He doesn't because freedom was never part of the deal, God wants you to take an active part in making your life and the lives of the people around you better, he's hands off, he gave you the rules, hell he even died for your sorry ass, he just never gave you a free ride.

You are free because men like you bleed and died to make you free and to keep you free. You have a right to life because anyone wishing you harm knows that your fellow citizens will punish anyone that tries to kill you.

You have no right to happyness but you can pursue it, I believe I saw it heading that way not so long ago. If you run you may catch it....

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posted by Citizen-
it's all evil sciences fault, that's a new one for you.

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i dont know why we constantly have to go down this path Citizen, i do not hate science, never said it was evil sciences fault, or the fault of athiests. i am simply underlying the differences in the two competing philosophies of (biblical)creationism and evolution. the point of all this is, people would like to believe that if we just got rid of all world religions, human reason and logic would govern us, peaceably; but the few attempts in history of this athiest utopia, inspired by guys like Marx, were communist dictatorships, who enslaved their citizenry. science is a tool, it is not in itself moral in anyway.. and cant be relied on to spiritually guide people. when i look back through history, i jonly see the sick behavior of selfish, disturbed people absent ANY moral guidance(religious and not)

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People were exalting the idea that theirs was the master race long before the Nazi's and long before the theory of evolution.

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yes, but theyre either occult(angelic race), or gnostic/evolutionary(spontaneous generation) concepts, either premised upon man evolving over vast periods of time from the lower levels of the natural kingdom, or being seeded by superhuman races. the simple observation that the Nazis adorned themselves with the gamut of esoteric occult symbolism, and the nature of their propganda should make it obvious that it wasnt Jesus Christian

people who are non theists have a tendency to lump every religious belief together, 'since its all make-believe'.. but there are actually notable, profound differences between the seperate beliefs

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Usually it was based on the idea that 'Our religion is better than your religion'.

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im sure people would just gallop along in harmony, incapable of fueding, in unity and peace.. IF ONLY we could facilitate the absence of religion? how many times hve i heard that.. its the great secular myth thats been taught the world over, which makes it easier to blame religion and God for every horror that human beings have committed throughout history. look i recognize that the "Church" was a monster.. but i dont blame Gods teachings for it; i blame the Romans who converged their pagan beliefs with christianity, and used the institution itself as a tool for worldy control.

there are a lot of instances where this has happened.. but one more recent example that tends to go unnoticed is(secular)Humanism, made popular by guys like Marx, and the role it played in communist Russia. as is witnessed, atheism was an intregal part of enslaving people and devaluing there worth and convincing them that they have no rights but that which the state gives them. there are a lot of examples of wordlviews run amok... the single common denominator is always corrupt men behind the scenes

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Though of course Atheists are just as capable of being moral as Theists.

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dont twist my words.. all im asking is...if there is no God, where do rights come from? you will say that men gather a consenses on what is allowed, they will rationalize among themselves what is appropriate, and it will be decided that way; only that decision is subject to change- dependant on the moral majority at the time. was it not this 'majority' who did the bidding of the Nazis, who rather than standing up, actually carried out the murderous dirty work? if everything is 'relative', as the Humanists say, then morality is relative aswell, is it not? i never said atheists are immoral, never once.. but there is no observable standard as a safegaurd either

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In fact I've seen evidence to suggest they're more capable of it.

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it depends on which beliefs your talking about.. but if you still think the Nazis were christians, then im not gonna bother with all this again..

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Believe it or not many people don't need the threat of a vengeful God punishing them in order for them to not go out and kill children. Weird concept I know.

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thats your interp

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Originally posted by antimason:
on the other hand, i can trust that you wont murder, because you THINK its a bad thing. whew.. theres a whole lot of assurance in that- but i believe you, after all, thats how you FEEL right now, its perfectly REASONABLE to you. well i demand something a little more tangeable to garauntee my rights then that

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So you decide to believe in something for which there is no evidence at all? Yep, doesn't get more tangible than that.

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The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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