Real World Event Discussions

The notion of patriotism

POSTED BY: Khyron
UPDATED: Friday, October 24, 2025 19:53
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CITIZEN

Sunday, February 4, 2007 11:19 PM

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Originally posted by antimason:
i dont know why we constantly have to go down this path Citizen, i do not hate science, never said it was evil sciences fault, or the fault of athiests.

Save where you find some way to blame all the worlds ills on evolution, atheist et al.

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i am simply underlying the differences in the two competing philosophies of (biblical)creationism and evolution.

One has factual support, the other does not? BTW, strictly speaking evolution isn't a philosophy.

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the point of all this is, people would like to believe that if we just got rid of all world religions, human reason and logic would govern us, peaceably;

Interestingly enough I've heard a few well thought out arguments that support that. They tend to show how people can be bad and immoral, but to be hard core and fanatical about it tends to take a religion allowing you to believe your actions are ultimately good and mandated from a higher power.

Personally I don't prescribe to that thought, but I do think losing blind faith and fanaticism can't really harm us all any. In fact I think dropping the whole organised religion thing altogether would be a good idea, and before you burn me on that remember that that is exactly what Jesus wanted.

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but the few attempts in history of this athiest utopia, inspired by guys like Marx, were communist dictatorships, who enslaved their citizenry.

I think the problems with Communism stem from areas other than religion or lack there of. I think to say Communism was what it was because it was 'Atheist' is a fallacy. Capitalism is 'Atheist' in so much as it is non-Theist', as is Democracy and in fact most societal systems.

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science is a tool, it is not in itself moral in anyway.. and cant be relied on to spiritually guide people.

Which is why it isn't used that way. More often than not (in fact I'd go as far to say always) it is religion pushing in to science's realm when there is conflict between the two, not vice versa.

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yes, but theyre either occult(angelic race), or gnostic/evolutionary(spontaneous generation) concepts, either premised upon man evolving over vast periods of time from the lower levels of the natural kingdom, or being seeded by superhuman races. the simple observation that the Nazis adorned themselves with the gamut of esoteric occult symbolism, and the nature of their propganda should make it obvious that it wasnt Jesus Christian

Either it's pagans or Evolutionists at fault? Guess we can write off all the atrocities committed because someone honestly believed that God wanted it.

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people who are non theists have a tendency to lump every religious belief together, 'since its all make-believe'.. but there are actually notable, profound differences between the seperate beliefs

What does this have to do with the price of Fish?

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im sure people would just gallop along in harmony, incapable of fueding, in unity and peace.. IF ONLY we could facilitate the absence of religion? how many times hve i heard that.. its the great secular myth thats been taught the world over, which makes it easier to blame religion and God for every horror that human beings have committed throughout history.

Well this is a strawman, but stepping past that issue quickly how often have I heard some theist telling us that Atheists are inherently less moral because they haven't got a god to tell them what to do. Certainly makes it easier to blame those that don't believe in your religion for all the evils of the Human race.

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there are a lot of instances where this has happened.. but one more recent example that tends to go unnoticed is(secular)Humanism, made popular by guys like Marx, and the role it played in communist Russia. as is witnessed, atheism was an intregal part of enslaving people and devaluing there worth and convincing them that they have no rights but that which the state gives them.

Was it? Or is it just a convenient

ANTIMASON

Monday, February 5, 2007 2:34 AM

Citizen- let me preface this by saying, i dont know what you want me to say? am i allowed faith in God?

if so, then i am permitted to believe that men have inalienable rights. you can choose to believe in evolution, that is fine.. you acknowledge that men are the ultimate arbitors of your freedom. i feel that all people are endowed freedom by their Creator.. and as long as i am entitled to the freedom of belief, those are rights i will stand for

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I think the problems with Communism stem from areas other than religion or lack there of. I think to say Communism was what it was because it was 'Atheist' is a fallacy.

why? Marx said himself that communism, as a fully devoloped system WAS secular humanism- that there was no seperation between the two. the communist manifesto states the following as their 14th affirmation

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" the humanists firmly believes that the existing acquisitive and profit motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate. a SOCIALIZED and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that acquisitive distribution of the means of life be possible"

. in other words, the absence of God neccessitates communism, because the individual is no longer seen as sovereign, but an assett to the state.

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Capitalism is 'Atheist' in so much as it is non-Theist', as is Democracy and in fact most societal systems.

it is not directly theist, but it plays upon our belief that men are entitled to life and liberty, and everything therein. capitalism is fundementally FREE enterprise, to allow the individual the right to liberty... whereas secular humanism, the admitted philosophy of communism, removes such rights altogether

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In fact I think dropping the whole organised religion thing altogether would be a good idea, and before you burn me on that remember that that is exactly what Jesus wanted.

Jesus wanted man to be governed by God, not by other men; God warned of government, because men are inherintly sinful, and would not uphold Gods laws over the majority

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Either it's pagans or Evolutionists at fault? Guess we can write off all the atrocities committed because someone honestly believed that God wanted it.

im sorry that they were mistaken, that they were unable to understand the context of historical events in the bible. a being perfect enough to manifest Creation, doesnt get off on repulsive lower brain human impulses.. that is the realm of men, in their lust for material wealth and gain

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how often have I heard some theist telling us that Atheists are inherently less moral because they haven't got a god to tell them what to do. Certainly makes it easier to blame those that don't believe in your religion for all the evils of the Human race.

its just a different way of looking at it. in all of this, you never offer your opinion.. atleast im willing to put my view out there, and take scrutiny for it.. i dont hear anyone else around here chiming in.

i believe God created Adam and Eve perfect, that these beings were decieved by angels, and fell into an imperfect sinful state in the material dimension. when someone sins, i blame the fallen nature of man, i do not blame his idealogy. it is possible that his idealogy contributes to his sinful nature.. which many believers have fallen into this category, but it does not make it Gods will when it happens.

you are entitled to believe that we are subject to no higher authority, and that through our own morality we choose what is right and wrong. i agree.. we do choose what is right or wrong, but where were these empirical concepts derived, if they did not come about through God? did we evolve a sense of right or wrong? did men collectively agree once upon a time, and it stuck with us? you dont need a God to tell you what is right or wrong, fine.. how do you know then?

just to take a quote from Lenin

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"We must combat religion. down with religion; long live Atheism. the spread of Atheism is our cheif task. commu

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RUE

Monday, February 5, 2007 2:54 AM

I have a moral code which has nothing to do with any type of god. It IS possible to have one without a deity and without any part of the bible.

MAZAEN

Monday, February 5, 2007 3:09 AM

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Antimason wrote "science is a tool, it is not in itself moral in anyway"

I agree with you that Science is a tool and that it isn't moral. Although I think of Science as a tool that god uses a lot.

I'd like to contribute on this topic of patriotism. Some people here seem to see Patriotism is a value, everyone has different values. But I think of patriotism as more of an instinct, like a mother's instinct. If you've got the instinct to work in a group it doesn't mean your evil. LOL. Firemen, who are people who usually have very good group instincts, are not evil.

Firemen are a good example of patriotism on a small scale. All the fire-brigades in NSW belong to two services. Firemen from the NSW Rural Fire Service are very patriotic towards the NSW Fire Service and Firemen from the NSW Fire Brigade are very patriotic to the NSW Fire Brigade. The patriotism to the NSW Fire Brigades and NSW Rural Fire Services causes some healthy rivalry between the two groups. This healthy rivalry helps the brigade members improve their skills and build team working ability. If a fire-brigade works well as a team they might be able to work together to save someone in a fire. If the brigade doesn't work very well in a group and the group falls apart at a crucial moment, then someone might be hurt or worse. So, patriotism is a very helpful and good instinct that helps people work together and can help people save lives.

Patriotism is humans forming groups and this has been occuring since the dawn of civilisation. A group is a fundamental dynamic that humans use to work and survive in the world.

An example of patriotism at the most basic level is shown in Firefly. Mal and the crew are very Patriotic about their little group. Being patriotic and proud of the ship Serenity and the crew helped them all to get back to Serenity in Ariel. In Ariel, Mal and Zoe showed a bit of patriotism on a small scale by going back into back into the hospital to find Simon, River and Jayne.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, February 5, 2007 5:36 AM

What you believe means nothing to me, what you DO means... everything.

Simple as that.

-F

FLETCH2

Monday, February 5, 2007 6:27 AM

Most of morality is a learned response part of the "socialisation" of a child as it grows (ie the way we are taught to play together and later to cooperate in groups and societies.) A byproduct of this process is the normalisation of societial standards some of which (in the west) are derived from the Christian religion and some from secular humanism. Raise a child in a different culture and it's moral norms are different, which is why groups like the Spartans could "normalise" essentially homosexual relations between men as being the natural state.

If morality came directly from God you would expect it to be the same everywhere, it should be inherent in all men, yet even Believers call their moral standards "Christian morality," accepting that it is "downloaded" behavior and not inherently built into the original wetware of the brain.

What IS in the original hardware at leat for neurotypical folks is the basis of empathy, the ability to feel what another person would feel in that situation. It is an essential part of socialisation, the "boot code" of the process that allows more complex social ideas like morality to be taught. If you had to point at anything and say something is a God built in function in humans it would be Empathy, especially as the absence of empathy is the closest thing to Evil that most of us will ever know.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, February 5, 2007 9:08 AM

Dead Bang On there, Fletch.

The complete lack of empathy is sociopathy, which in and of itself is not an evil, but tends to lead to evil in short order, generally.

Anyhow, I gotta throw in a bit here about something *between*, not a lack of empathy, but glitch in the system you could say, often aided and abetted by environmental factors, resulting in a far lesser degree of empathy than normal, let's simply refer to it as "Diminished Capacity".

These are the ones that can go either way, you see - and are far more common than the true sociopath, and in their own far, are far more dangerous because while the true sociopath simply sees you as an object, a thing, a tool or an obstacle, maliciousness for it's own sake isn't really part of their thought process you see.

Worse is the one who knows HOW to hurt you the worst and goes about doing it with malicious glee - I cite Carl Panzram as a classic example of such.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Panzram

The other side of the coin is interesting as well, because a person with less capacity to BE hurt, operating on a muted emotional basis and able to operate with clincal detatchment even in the most stressful environs without suffering the emotional impact thereof tends to make the very best Fireman, Policeman, EMT or what have you.

The key to that is getting TO kids like that, first identifying and then helping them deal with, and even take advantage of this trait - rather than the devolution into.. for lack of a better word.. "Monsters".

Doctor Bruce Perry and the CITIVAS initiative have been workin that angle for a while, and the research and progress, although badly underfunded, is both excellent and fascinating.

Just some vaguely related thoughts...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

CITIZEN

Monday, February 5, 2007 5:58 PM

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Originally posted by antimason:
Citizen- let me preface this by saying, i dont know what you want me to say? am i allowed faith in God?

Yeah, that's what I said, I said “Antimason stop believing in God or I will kick you in the nuts! Respect my Authorita god damn it!” You caught me out there, clever you, no wait, the other thing.

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why? Marx said himself that communism, as a fully devoloped system WAS secular humanism- that there was no seperation between the two.

So you're either a theocracy or evil? Get with the program Secularism is a good thing, and Communisms Secular nature has NOTHING to do with the problems of Communism as a system.

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" the humanists firmly believes that the existing acquisitive and profit motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate. a SOCIALIZED and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that acquisitive distribution of the means of life be possible"
in other words, the absence of God neccessitates communism, because the individual is no longer seen as sovereign, but an assett to the state.

No in other words they didn't like Capitalism, no mention of God or Christianity there at all. Where did you get you argument? Joseph McCarthy's big book of Fascism?

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it is not directly theist, but it plays upon our belief that men are entitled to life and liberty, and everything therein. capitalism is fundementally FREE enterprise, to allow the individual the right to liberty... whereas secular humanism, the admitted philosophy of communism, removes such rights altogether

No, Capitalism has nothing to do with Christianity. Can't be put any simpler than that.

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its just a different way of looking at it.

I see, when you see me doing it its terribly biased and anti Christian, when you do it it's “just a different way of looking at it”.

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in all of this, you never offer your opinion..

What do you think I'm doing right now? Doubles tennis?

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atleast im willing to put my view out there, and take scrutiny for it.. i dont hear anyone else around here chiming in.

So you think your what? Typing posts to the voices in your head?

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you dont need a God to tell you what is right or wrong, fine.. how do you know then?

Well, there's lots of ways, empathy for a start, as Fletch explained if you bothered to read his post. How do you know what God is telling you is good is good?

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just to take a quote from Lenin
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"We must combat religion. down with religion; long live Atheism. the spread of Atheism is our cheif task. communism ABOLISHES ETERNAL TRUTHS. it abolishes all religion and morality"

Actually I think Lenin's stance on religion is better put here:

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Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned.

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if there are no eternal truths, what hope do you have that your rights will be protected?

Well if history is anything to go by far better hope than in a theocracy.

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they used propoganda to twist the message of the bible to decieve these people.. its happening now, its happened to everyone throughout history. how is that God, or the bibles fault? there were plenty of atheists duped by the Nazis.. and not because they were religious in anyway, but because because evolutionary theory is identical to kabbalic gnosticism, which also allowed for the dogma of racial inferiority towards the jews

How's it evolutions fault? You keep blaming science and evil evolution but have yet to come up with a single reason why. No rationalisation whatsoever.

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by christians, or luciferians? why would christians kill Gods people Citizen?

For the same reasons they have been fo

RUE

Monday, February 5, 2007 6:05 PM

Anti -

I'm still waiting for an answer. If god created the universe, who created god?

Your whole post is based on your inability to conceive how the universe could have sprung from nothing. And yet you have no problem with your concept of a god which is even more fanciful. (No beginning or end, exists everywhere but not corporeal, riddled with contradictions - man that guy needs some time on the couch)

So I'm wondering, what is it about your idea of a god that is so much more palatable than your idea of the universe coming out of nothing?

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, February 6, 2007 1:56 AM

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I'm still waiting for an answer. If god created the universe, who created god?

Why he sprang forth fully formed from the forehead of Zeus!

C'mon, everybody knows that!

-F