I suspect vaccinations because...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, January 13, 2024 18:35
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CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 16, 2011 2:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Folks, that ain't SCIENCE, that's Religion.
And it ain't mine.

I don't know how you do that. You hit the nail on the head, and no one crucifies you for it.

I stand in awe of The Frem.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, December 16, 2011 3:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Sometimes kids with autism start out ordinary, meet their milestones and start talking etc. but then they stop doing those things on time. Maybe that is a subtype of autism, since we chunk a lot of different things and symptoms into the label of "autism". But yeah often it is visably present from the start and something is clearly different from the beginning.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

I believe that is generally because of when austism becomes apparant, when early developmental milestones are not being met and the child does not catch up. That also coincides with with certain vaccinations, hence why some parents create the link between autism and vaccination. Depends also on the severity of the autism, for some it is apparant in very early infancy, but for most it is when the walking, talking, socialising stuff kicks in with developmentally normal children.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, December 16, 2011 4:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Since this seems to be more of a personal burn-the-heretic bent goin on here than actual reasonable discussion - might I remind people that the notions of Gardasil being dangerous, and Vaccine-caused outbreaks were shouted down in much the same fashion long past the point where the evidence was undeniable.

A *LOT* of modern "medicine" is as much faith, confirmation bias and plain old snakeoil, as is much else - the problem rises when that faith gets in the WAY of science.

Fact: WE DO NOT KNOW, exactly what makes people susceptible to bad vaccine reactions, there's evidence and suspicions, but not a whole bloody lot to go on, yet Thimerosal and Adjuvants are obvious toxins - BUT, no research gets done because of peoples FAITH standing in the way, telling us it's "safe" - well "they" told us Thaliomide(sp?) and Vioxx were safe, that transfats were healthier than butter, that aspartame was healthier than sugar.... on and on and on and on, the lies, which often as not the folks profiting KNEW were lies, and foisted down to people stupid enough to gobble it right the hell up and not only regurgitate it every time it was challenged, but verbally and otherwise attack those who do challenge it, over, and over, and over, and it comes back around and around.

WHY so much FAITH in known liars, who have fed you lie after lie, bogus studies and snakeoil, time and time again - what CREDIBILITY does the medical establishment really have at this point ?

Beyond that, faith IS NOT SCIENCE, you QUESTION, you STUDY - you don't claim this or that and then blockade any further attempts to study something, acting as if all was known, cause the truth is that we really KNOW very little, a lot of medical science is just fucking guesswork based on average results - case in point treating whatever the hell it is (acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis) with steroids, which is done not because of any science, but that they randomly tried shit they THOUGHT might work, till something did - but they don't KNOW a goddamn thing, do they ?
Not what causes it, not how to get rid of it, not a bloody freakin thing.

So pardon me if your FAITH in the petty tin liar-gods of the medical establishment which has done little but fuck me over all my life kind of annoys the piss outta me.

That said, yes, single-dose, non-preservative vaccines are much, MUCH safer, but almost never used because of the true god of the modern medical establishment - PROFIT.

My issue with is, is what it always has been, rather than debate effectiveness, simply the notion that "acceptable losses" AREN'T - that isn't good enough, to simply write off human beings because to do otherwise would possibly challenge ones faith in an establishment which does not deserve it, to reject the notion of scientific investigation based on, what ?
Mere FAITH.

Folks, that ain't SCIENCE, that's Religion.
And it ain't mine.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Well it depends on which side of the fence you fall on. I could also argue that the anti vaccination argument, by and large, is made by people who dismiss scientific thinking all together and prefer myth and voodoo explainations regarding medical matters.

I understand that science does not provide answers to everything right now, and that there are issues with drugs approved for use. I have no love for the big pharmaceutical companies and the whole 'for profit' nature of some of the medical industry and I have to say that includes a lot of unqualified quacks making money out of distributing water with a speck of orange blossom in it as a cure, but I cannot just dismiss modern medical advances simply because they don't always get it right.

If people here would prefer to go back to the past, and to a high infant mortality rate, a death sentence for most cancers, low survival rate for diseases such as pneumonia and influenza which killed 20 million people in a few

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, December 16, 2011 7:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So parse the data carefully. But ALSO be prepared to get answers you don't expect, or don't like. And be prepared to accept them IF the evidence points in a direction you don't "like". Otherwise you fall into the same behavior as any other hack.

Oh indeed - as I mentioned I'd rather have been completely wrong about Gardasil, and there's times I *have* been wrong, and much gratified about it cause I generally work from a worst-case scenario and go up from there.

Case in point: Thimerosal BY ITSELF seems neither AS dangerous as thought(1) at first glance nor does the data bear out preservatives of that nature as an exclusive source of bad reactions or possibly sparking autism, HOWEVER, additional data gathered during that research seemed to indicate that certain adjuvants(2) are in fact more dangerous in and of themselves alone, and in combination with other ingrediants and preservatives may well be the vector - but again, more information is needed cause we don't actually KNOW.

And I think we oughta know, I think there's no sense in turning our back on a course of investigation that would actually make vaccines safer, whether one disputes their effectiveness or not.

(1) I still don't consider it safe, which is why I reccommend single-dose as the safest option.
(2) Which even single-dose has, thus being a risk factor either way.

Another of my issues with it is that as far as informed choice goes: like you pointed out there, if they've lied to you, you don't really have an informed choice - and sometimes a potential patient has to decide on something, and that decision may well conflict with a doctors opinion.
I am certainly NO stranger to that one, having been told I'd never walk again, and sometimes crossing irons with various doctors after having "done my homework" and come to a different conclusion.
Knowledge of the topic such as is possible is something which I feel is every patients responsibility, cause you can't put it all on the doctors, as I point out, often in unfriendly words true - they're human and fallible as well, so one can no more morally thrust all the responsibility upon them than they can consider them the be-all, end-all of knowledge, they have a larger database of info, but this is no guarantee of a good result or decision, and I've as much ire at patients abdicating THEIR end of responsibility as the rest of it.

That said, when Government gets involved annoys the piss out of me, especially "mandatory" anything is gonna get my hackles up - most especially when there is KNOWN collusion and corruption in the process, as the FDA has been reduced to all but a corporate mouthpiece these days, and I think we should take a hard lesson from the Gardasil fiasco in that patient choice should always supercede the will of the State.
Speakin of which, they AGAIN (this is four times, now) threw out the charges against Maryanne Godboldo, both for standing off the cops, and the seperate case regarding her fitness as a parent based on the medical courses of treatment for her daughter, who has, against all odds started showing improvement.
Judge Gregory Bill offers this.

Quote:
Bill hinted that Wenk was impatient, filled out a legal order that was woefully inadequate, broke with established policy by calling 911 to have Detroit police enforce it rather than confront the woman herself, and then misrepresented the meaning of the order to police.

Which is what I been saying all along, and were it not for the apalling corruption of Kym Worthy and her cronies (who intend to appeal, again and again in efforts to bankrupt Maryanne with legal fees and declare her an unfit parent by virtue of financial insolvency) we would be pursuing CRIMINAL charges against Mia Wenk for her actions in this, which went far outside established policy and the law, yet she faces no repercussions for this.
Such lessons as this are never lost on me, and a good counterpoint to WHY Government of any kind doesn't belong in medicine - cause when a Government represent

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, December 16, 2011 8:38 AM

Uhh, Magons ?

Quote:
Well it depends on which side of the fence you fall on. I could also argue that the anti vaccination argument, by and large, is made by people who dismiss scientific thinking all together and prefer myth and voodoo explainations regarding medical matters.

There's PLENTY of myth and voodoo in modern medicine, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiopathic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptogenic_disease
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis_of_exclusion

Belive me, I have recent PERSONAL experience with this, via "acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis" in combination with an autoimmune reaction and what they think was a mild stroke - just because they hide "we have no fucking idea" within medical doublespeak and fancy latin doesn't mean that ain't what they're saying.
And again, they have no bloody idea how to even treat it outside of steroids either, and were it not for one of them doctors actually listening to what the hell I was telling them instead of treating me like a piece of furniture I'd probably be dead.

Quote:
I understand that science does not provide answers to everything right now, and that there are issues with drugs approved for use. I have no love for the big pharmaceutical companies and the whole 'for profit' nature of some of the medical industry and I have to say that includes a lot of unqualified quacks making money out of distributing water with a speck of orange blossom in it as a cure, but I cannot just dismiss modern medical advances simply because they don't always get it right.

I don't dismiss em, and the fact that as soon as I start poking holes in many of the often-false assumptions modern medicine is based on; people jump RIGHT to that conclusion without listening to what the hell I am saying is one reason I am reluctant to discuss this topic.
By NO means am I unaware of the near-miracles that *properly executed* modern medicine can provide, Corvera and Aziz are freakin mad geniuses, and the rest of my collective of mad-science doctors are no slouches either, the mere fact that I am mobile at all is very much one of those miracles - but doctors are not gods, they're bioware mechanics, and just like taking your car to a mechanic, taking your body to their office is no guarantee they actually DO know what the hell they're doing, or that they won't pull a fast one on you - my scratch and dent doc is in cahoots with certain folks who make anti-cholesterol drugs, for example (they pay for his golf junkets) and as a result will "push" his diagnosis and examination to include screening even if unwarranted, which I blow off cause he's a decent sort even so and doesn't ask questions about where the scratches and dents came from.

Quote:
If people here would prefer to go back to the past, and to a high infant mortality rate, a death sentence for most cancers, low survival rate for diseases such as pneumonia and influenza which killed 20 million people in a few short years post ww1, if people would be happy continue to live with a disease such as polio outbreak that killed and paralised millions over a 10 year period, well I think that you are glass half empty people. Because what you have said is that modern medicine sucks and is a sham. Well I say boo.

Horse manure - what I SAID is that we ought not remain static, that we should not simply accept what we are told by folks without sufficient credibility to justify that believe, at least not without examining the evidence ourselves.
This is NOT a black/white, yes/no kinda thing - but again, every time I dare raise QUESTIONS, there's this burn-the-heretic impulse, which strikes me odd since if your BELIEF cannot withstand scientific examination then it is no more valid than any other religion.
Oh, and did we not go over the FACT that many of the polio outbreaks in Africa right now WERE CAUSED BY THE VACCINE?; frankly, live-virus vaccines are an idiotic idea and out to be replaced with something assured not to cause that problem, of course since that information conflicted w

M52NICKERSON

Friday, December 16, 2011 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Now I could list every single paper I read, and detail why they prove nothing conclusive. I could look through the meta-analyses and list all the papers included, and why each one was flawed. I could. But it would take a lot of time.

If she really wanted to know the answer, she would read those same papers herself. And if she knew how to critique scientific papers, she would see the obvious. If she didn't, then none of the criticisms I detail would mean anything, because like M5Nickerson, she would just reiterate the original paper's positions rather than come up with counterpoints. And tell me how stupid and white trashy I and my criticisms are.

If you could really go through every single one of those stuides, which are peer reviewed by other scientist that are a lot smarter then you, you would have done it and written about it. Please don't hold back and keep the world from seeing the truth...get to writing.

Now, the thing it you can't find flaws in each of those studies. What you think are flaws or errors are not. Its BS of the highers degree. Then you bitch about counterpoints, but as said you need a valid point before one can counter. See everything you brought up was already answered in the study, that make your points invalid.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 16, 2011 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't wanna suspect, I don't wanna guess, I WANT TO *KNOW* - THAT, is what science is about, finding the hell out, and I'd really like to find out WHY some folk have a bad reaction to vaccines, WHAT causes it, HOW that comes to be, and very most importantly, eliminate that half-assed guesswork and KNOW, so that we can do something about it, instead of just writing off human beings as acceptable losses cause to do otherwise would challenge peoples faith.

And it does - why else would the flamethrowers come out the moment people QUESTION it ?

YEP. That is what most people in the "anti-vaccinationist" movement want. They aren't anti-vaccines. They just think we need to be honest about them and make them BETTER. "Green our Vaccines" is their motto. You can think of them as Occupy Vaccines before there was Occupy.

Incidentally, homeopathy is a secular healing modality. Most people in the homeopathic community are liberal, hippie types (think Niki) who are just as hard on Big Pharma as they are other corporations. They are usually not theist, rarely Christian, and almost never evangelical.

Sure there are a couple of evangelical Christians who might try homeopathy here or there, but they are not the "regulars." Most homeopaths would take great offense at being lumped together with evangelicals.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, December 16, 2011 1:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
...get to writing.

I have often thought about writing a book summarizing vaccine literature. After being very tempted and considering it carefully, I decided against it for personal reasons.

But yes, sometimes I think I should get to writing. It is not a bad suggestion.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

SIGNYM

Friday, December 16, 2011 4:32 PM

Quote:
hence why some parents create the link between autism and vaccination

Some parents make the link. Most do not; they know something is wrong from the very beginning. The timing comes about from the fact that while the PARENTS know that something is wrong from the very beginning, it is unquantifiable... doesn't match up with milestones. And until the milestones are missed by a remarkable time-span, the standard advice is the tincture of time. So MOST kids with autism don't get OFFICIALLY diagnosed until well after they're expected to talk. More sensitive tests... the kind that are videotaped and parsed in detail, looking for eye contact etc... reveal the presence of autism very early... within a week or two of birth. And that doesn't include the biomarkers that are present AT birth.

In other words, autism = vaccination is mostly a phony association, crated by the lag in official diagnosis.

Now, I happen to know two parents whose children had a bad reaction to the pertussis vaccine, which left them with autistic-like behaviors. But in those cases, the damage was unmistakable... fever and seizures within a day of vaccination.

And there IS a subtype of autism which does appear later... I expect it is more like a seizure disorder or a straight autoimmune disorder than anything, for reasons that are too complicated to get into now.

IF one narrows the field of inquiry ONLY to an autism/ vaccination link, much valuable information is lost.

ANTHONYT

Friday, December 16, 2011 4:44 PM

Hello,

This thread is becoming unmanageably long. Perhaps we could start an, "I suspect vaccinations, Part II, the revenge," thread? It would be easier to follow new posts.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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