I suspect vaccinations because...
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, January 13, 2024 18:35
VIEWED: 11985
PAGE 15 of 17
Not condoning Kiki calling CTS white trash, but pointing out that in my use of the word, and my family's use of the word it can apply to anyone of any race who happens to be ... whitetrashy, I'm an equal oppertunity insulter.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:Thank you, Byte, for redirecting the argument.
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Stick to the meta-analysis part and cherry-picking accusation, since those are on topic, but next time, maybe skip the thing where you imply anyone who isn't white is trash, or that poor people are inherently trash.
Here's my answer, which I have said before, but I will say again.
I went through a period of a year or two when I did almost nothing but read vaccination papers. I have read dozens and dozens. I paid special attention to papers on autism and vaccination. To date, I have not seen a study that was convincing to me that autism is NOT linked to vaccination. Madsen's study was only one example I offered as representative of the type of pseudoscience I found in the dozens of papers I have read.
Now I could list every single paper I read, and detail why they prove nothing conclusive. I could look through the meta-analyses and list all the papers included, and why each one was flawed. I could. But it would take a lot of time.
If she really wanted to know the answer, she would read those same papers herself. And if she knew how to critique scientific papers, she would see the obvious. If she didn't, then none of the criticisms I detail would mean anything, because like M5Nickerson, she would just reiterate the original paper's positions rather than come up with counterpoints. And tell me how stupid and white trashy I and my criticisms are.
I figure, why bother? It is not like it would convince Kiki if I did that, or make her less insulting to me.
Here is my official, on the record, answer: I say those papers are inconclusive and are garbage. Don't take my word for it. I don't expect you to. Read those papers for yourself. Make your own decisions. I hope no one would simply believe me just cause I said so.
If afterwards, you wish to discuss the particular flaws of a particular paper, and somehow were actually interested in my opinion, start a thread, and I will be happy to delve into it with you. If you wish. Offer is open to anyone.
(Incidentally, I am not white, nor poor. I am actually of a minority race, highly educated, and middle class. But I understand the insult doesn't truly require either "white" or "trashy.")
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Quote:In other words, your mind is made up and you will not be confused with facts.
To date, I have not seen a study that was convincing to me that autism is NOT linked to vaccination.
If you read those studies like you read global warming studies (and you do) you will demand unobtainable certainty from an opposing viewpoint. The frustrating thing is, you will not demand the same level of proof of your own (dare I say) cockeyed views. You will choose your own prejudice, opinion, and belief over anyone else's substance.
So, as far as autism and vaccination are concerned, I will see you one and raise you a whole bunch:
Autism is present AT BIRTH. Just to make this pellucidly clear, autism is present BEFORE vaccination.
Got an explanation for that?
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Quote:You really do not know what my own cockeyed views are. Unlike others on this forum, you don't like to ask what my views are as much as you like to assume.
Originally posted by SignyM:
If you read those studies like you read global warming studies (and you do) you will demand unobtainable certainty from an opposing viewpoint. The frustrating thing is, you will not demand the same level of proof of your own (dare I say) cockeyed views.
For the record: to date, I have not seen a study that was convincing to me that autism is linked to vaccination.
Quote:Possible explanation, if indeed there are both genetic and environmental factors in the etiology of autism. Genetics loads the gun. Environment pulls the trigger.
Autism is present AT BIRTH. Just to make this pellucidly clear, autism is present BEFORE vaccination.
Got an explanation for that?
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Nope. AUTISM is present at birth. Try again.
And BTW, most everybody here is aware of your views. Those views would not survive an instant if you demanded the same rigorous certainty as you do of everyone else. When it comes to weighing evidence, your thumb is heavily on the scale. There is nothing rational or objective about it.
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Sometimes kids with autism start out ordinary, meet their milestones and start talking etc. but then they stop doing those things on time. Maybe that is a subtype of autism, since we chunk a lot of different things and symptoms into the label of "autism". But yeah often it is visably present from the start and something is clearly different from the beginning.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
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Quote:That is a very good point. There are different types or presentations of autism, and each type may have a different "cause."
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Sometimes kids with autism start out ordinary, meet their milestones and start talking etc. but then they stop doing those things on time. Maybe that is a subtype of autism, since we chunk a lot of different things and symptoms into the label of "autism". But yeah often it is visably present from the start and something is clearly different from the beginning.
Another way to look at it is, environment may make a big difference in how the disorder is expressed or presented. Meaning, autism may be congenital, but it may be unnoticeable until different environmental triggers excerbate it, resulting in different symptoms.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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Since this seems to be more of a personal burn-the-heretic bent goin on here than actual reasonable discussion - might I remind people that the notions of Gardasil being dangerous, and Vaccine-caused outbreaks were shouted down in much the same fashion long past the point where the evidence was undeniable.
A *LOT* of modern "medicine" is as much faith, confirmation bias and plain old snakeoil, as is much else - the problem rises when that faith gets in the WAY of science.
Fact: WE DO NOT KNOW, exactly what makes people susceptible to bad vaccine reactions, there's evidence and suspicions, but not a whole bloody lot to go on, yet Thimerosal and Adjuvants are obvious toxins - BUT, no research gets done because of peoples FAITH standing in the way, telling us it's "safe" - well "they" told us Thaliomide(sp?) and Vioxx were safe, that transfats were healthier than butter, that aspartame was healthier than sugar.... on and on and on and on, the lies, which often as not the folks profiting KNEW were lies, and foisted down to people stupid enough to gobble it right the hell up and not only regurgitate it every time it was challenged, but verbally and otherwise attack those who do challenge it, over, and over, and over, and it comes back around and around.
WHY so much FAITH in known liars, who have fed you lie after lie, bogus studies and snakeoil, time and time again - what CREDIBILITY does the medical establishment really have at this point ?
Beyond that, faith IS NOT SCIENCE, you QUESTION, you STUDY - you don't claim this or that and then blockade any further attempts to study something, acting as if all was known, cause the truth is that we really KNOW very little, a lot of medical science is just fucking guesswork based on average results - case in point treating whatever the hell it is (acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis) with steroids, which is done not because of any science, but that they randomly tried shit they THOUGHT might work, till something did - but they don't KNOW a goddamn thing, do they ?
Not what causes it, not how to get rid of it, not a bloody freakin thing.
So pardon me if your FAITH in the petty tin liar-gods of the medical establishment which has done little but fuck me over all my life kind of annoys the piss outta me.
That said, yes, single-dose, non-preservative vaccines are much, MUCH safer, but almost never used because of the true god of the modern medical establishment - PROFIT.
My issue with is, is what it always has been, rather than debate effectiveness, simply the notion that "acceptable losses" AREN'T - that isn't good enough, to simply write off human beings because to do otherwise would possibly challenge ones faith in an establishment which does not deserve it, to reject the notion of scientific investigation based on, what ?
Mere FAITH.
Folks, that ain't SCIENCE, that's Religion.
And it ain't mine.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Yes, by all means question and study. Evidence and data is often biased. Like the media, it is easy to lie by omission. EXAMPLE: A study by maker of Synthroid... showed that the brand name was more effective than the generic. Good as far as it goes, but what they DIDN'T tell you about was the nine other studies which showed no such thing. All of the studies funded by Knoll brand, maker of Synthroid.
Synthroid Manufacturer Settles with 37 States
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/synthroid1/a/mfrsettlement.htm
So parse the data carefully. But ALSO be prepared to get answers you don't expect, or don't like. And be prepared to accept them IF the evidence points in a direction you don't "like". Otherwise you fall into the same behavior as any other hack.
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Quote:Absolutely.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So parse the data carefully. But ALSO be prepared to get answers you don't expect, or don't like. And be prepared to accept them IF the evidence points in a direction you don't "like". Otherwise you fall into the same behavior as any other hack.
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"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm
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