Screw 'em if they hate us

POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 09:13
VIEWED: 19860
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6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, June 14, 2008 2:33 PM

I'm sick...

I'm tired...

And to quote Ozzy, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired...

Don't hate on America people. Especially if you live here. We've got our problems, and I agree they must be tended to sooner than later, but our history is of that of a Nation who has been the freest of any who has ever lived in recorded history.

Most of them haters are just hypocrites that have just been jealous for eons of our wealth, prosperity, inginuity and general dominance over the world (eons as in a blink of an eye in time if you're a backer of the Big Bang Theory). Look at all of them who weren't modernized 50 years ago scramble to learn Basic English and modernize themselves in 15 years what it took hundereds to develop here.

Everybody hates 'mericans but nobody wants to be 'merican, know what I'm sayin'?

America.... You've come a long way baby.

Don't let the haters get you down.

~6sJ

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 14, 2008 3:14 PM

That's pretty sad, 6ix. They hate us because they're jealous?

Oh, right.

They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system.

Sheesh! As if they don't have their own democracies!

What you need to do, 6ix, is go visit other nations, particularly Europe... but Canada will do. Just see how seething they are with jealousy. Pick up on the vibes of their "Oh how I wish I was in the USA!" as they have lunch at streetside cafes and talk with friends. Look around and see how miserable they are in their low-crime cities and parks! Absorb their underlying anxiety about health care, and notice their basic fear of strangers.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

SIMONWHO

Saturday, June 14, 2008 4:24 PM

I've never quite understood why Americans think themselves the freest nation on the planet. It's probably the Netherlands or another small European country - their citizens are trusted to be free and take responsibility for their own lives and there's no phony war on drugs nor religious masses oppressing anyone who differs from Judeo-Christian paths.

You're not even the freest nation in North America.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 14, 2008 4:44 PM

You got it Simon. But it comforts us to believe the fantasy.

isall

MAL4PREZ

Saturday, June 14, 2008 4:48 PM

"inginuity" *snort*

Who's scrambling to learn basic English?

Cheers,
mal-mysuperioritycomplexisbiggerthanyours-4prez

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

RIGHTEOUS9

Saturday, June 14, 2008 5:08 PM

um...

where we've been ahead, kudos to us. We created a robust, almost failsafe republic with enough checks and balances that even today under great strain, it looks like we have not permanently lost our democracy.

Kudos to the founding fathers who built a better system on the backs of other systems. Kudos to them for taking religion out of it, another failsafe that has often been under attack.

But in the big picture, it hasn't all been roses. We were late to the game of abolishing slavery, we were late to the game of giving blacks equal rights.

If you look at our status in the world today, we have the highest incarceration rate, and the highest prison population in the world, and just so that this doesn't get confused as being a case of humanitarianism, countries such as germany which have no death penalty come in far under us in this category.

We come in at like 47th or something on the freedom index for press,

we have one of the highest infant mortality rates of developed nations,

............
I have to go to work..so I'll continue this later.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Saturday, June 14, 2008 5:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:

We come in at like 47th or something on the freedom index for press,

Not that I don't generally agree with you-- America is a pretty good, but not perfect, place. The guy who wrote the Preamble to the Constitution called for a " more perfect union"-- wasn't then, isn't now; and that's the goal we ought to be keeping our eye on and working toward.

But I'd like to see some substantiation for that rating of 47th on freedom of the press. I could readily accept not in the top 10, maybe, but out of, what, 150 nations recognized by the UN, not that we're 1/3 of the way down.

Who , exactly, rated us as that low, and what was their methodology?

YINYANG

Saturday, June 14, 2008 6:54 PM

[delurk]

On the 2007 Worldwide Press Freedom Index, Reporters Without Borders rated the U.S. 48th out of 169 countries:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025

The method for investigation is a 50-item questionaire:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24046

More on how the index was compiled:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24027

[/delurk]

RALLEM

Saturday, June 14, 2008 7:00 PM

I don't think there is any real study of our freedom of the press and I also think we are rated low whenever there is a Republican President just to make that office look bad.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

YINYANG

Saturday, June 14, 2008 7:07 PM

Actually, the U.S. was ranked 17th in 2002, and 22nd in 2004:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116 (2002)
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 (2004)

RALLEM

Saturday, June 14, 2008 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Actually, the U.S. was ranked 17th in 2002, and 22nd in 2004:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116 (2002)
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 (2004)

Your point is what?

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

SERGEANTX

Saturday, June 14, 2008 7:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
America.... You've come a long way baby.

Don't let the haters get you down.

I have to agree on the face of it. But most of the people I see getting labeled 'America Haters', aren't that at all. They're people standing up against corrupt leadership that doesn't have a clue what being American means in the first place. Doing that, in the face all the lambasting and demagoguery that will inevitably result, is about the most patriotic thing I can think of.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SERGEANTX

Saturday, June 14, 2008 7:27 PM

*doublepost gremlin*

AURAPTOR

Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Actually, the U.S. was ranked 17th in 2002, and 22nd in 2004:

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116 (2002)
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11715 (2004)

Pressies just hate Bush, is all.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CITIZEN

Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
I don't think there is any real study of our freedom of the press and I also think we are rated low whenever there is a Republican President just to make that office look bad.

How on Earth can Republicans control most of the American media, spend most of the time controlling the US Government, and yet still have a colossal victim complex? Is this some sort of undiscovered mental illness?

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
Your point is what?

Well I imagine his point was that: the US not being rock bottom every time this list was compiled during the Bush presidency, pretty much refutes your silly assertion?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

GEEZER

Saturday, June 14, 2008 8:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system.

At least you're consistant. Any time anyone says anything less than disparaging about the US you gotta jump up with your litany of horrors. I don't believe that I have ever seen you post anything at all positive about your country.

Admit it, Siggy. You're the hater.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:02 PM

Thanx, Yin. I am a little confused by the 2 posts, and 2 different ratings, only 15 min. apart.And as I suggested, I could buy not in the Top Ten-- which makes 17th or 22nd reasonable, but not 47th. And I was pretty close , off the top of my head, with 150 nations instead of 169-- I guess-timated closer than I thought I could. Gonna hafta look at all the links you provided and see if I agree or not.

SIGMANUNKI

Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

At least you're consistant. Any time anyone says anything less than disparaging about the US you gotta jump up with your litany of horrors. I don't believe that I have ever seen you post anything at all positive about your country.

Admit it, Siggy. You're the hater.

Yah, because if you're not 100% for America you're just "hating" on America, right? God forbid someone would point out many of the tragic horrors that go on in the USA on a daily basis. That would inject some sort of reality into the discussion.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

SIGMANUNKI

Saturday, June 14, 2008 9:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Thanx, Yin. I am a little confused by the 2 posts, and 2 different ratings, only 15 min. apart.And as I suggested, I could buy not in the Top Ten-- which makes 17th or 22nd reasonable, but not 47th. And I was pretty close , off the top of my head, with 150 nations instead of 169-- I guess-timated closer than I thought I could. Gonna hafta look at all the links you provided and see if I agree or not.

You don't even need to do that. All you have to do is look at the news media in the US and then compare the coverage from the BBC or Spiegel ( http://www.spiegel.de/international/). Just give it a week. You'll be very very surprised with the profound lack of journalism that is in your country.

In fact, when I lived in the US I found that MTV News provided better journalism than any of the major networks. It was shocking to discover that. I wonder if that's changed and MTV News is just as bad.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

GEEZER

Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Yah, because if you're not 100% for America you're just "hating" on America, right? God forbid someone would point out many of the tragic horrors that go on in the USA on a daily basis.

If Siggy ever did anything but point out (and often exaggerate) things that aren't right in the US, I'd consider her just like anyone else. There's good and bad here to be noted. But she's 100% critical of everything about the US, or at least has never mentioned a positive. I'd say that qualifies as hating.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RIGHTEOUS9

Saturday, June 14, 2008 10:20 PM

Other cutting edge acheivements -

free education for the public,

dilineating freedom of the press in the bill of rights

Both of these are significant contributors to the sustainability of our democracy.

I'm proud that we were on the cutting edge of these things, that we pushed these boundaries, and that we were leaders for the rest of the world to emulate...

but we can't sit on our asses and just continue to parrot "we're still the best country in the world in just about every way," without making sure that it is so.

First, that requires being inquisitive about the very premise.

Second, that requires being critical of ourselves if we are falling short of the mark., saying so if we've become feet dragging followers rather than leaders.

To do the opposite is not patriotic, because in order to be patriotic you have to try to preserve the ideals that this nation was founded on. You have to believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.

Attacking the critics of our nation simply because they have criticisms of it, or because they have bad things to say about what America has done or is doing, is not being patriotic, it's being nationalistic, and that is trite.

It's the same old universal brand that can be applied to any country, at any point in history, and it is never pretty.

American patriotism is the choicer philosophy.

GEEZER

Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
First, that requires being inquisitive about the very premise.

Second, that requires being critical of ourselves if we are falling short of the mark., saying so if we've become feet dragging followers rather than leaders.

To do the opposite is not patriotic, because in order to be patriotic you have to try to preserve the ideals that this nation was founded on. You have to believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.

I got no argument with that. I have problems with some of what goes on here as well.

But folks who are unremittingly, stridently critical of everything that happens in and relating to the US, who never have a positive thing to say about the country, and who insult and demean anyone who thinks that, with all its faults, it's a pretty good place, aren't helping to improve anything. They really are just hating, and add nothing positive to a search for solutions to the problems.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RALLEM

Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:42 PM

Well said Geezer

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 15, 2008 1:23 AM

Quote:
How on Earth can Republicans control most of the American media, spend most of the time controlling the US Government, and yet still have a colossal victim complex? Is this some sort of undiscovered mental illness?

The same way we can have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL feel like we're "being attacked".
And yes, it is a mental illness.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:29 AM

Quote:
How on Earth can Republicans control most of the American media, spend most of the time controlling the US Government, and yet still have a colossal victim complex? Is this some sort of undiscovered mental illness?

Umm, the GOP controls nary any of the media, and its the Democrats who control both Congress and Senate. What civics courses you took which some how states a party only owning 1/3 of the 3 branches of Government is somehow in control of that Gov....is beyond me.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

PIRATECAT

Sunday, June 15, 2008 3:57 AM

I don't just love America I am im Love with AMERICA. Making out with a spanish girl in Virginia Beach, making out with a asian chic in Redondo Beach, checking out the sunsets in the Badlands of South Dakota and eaten bread pudden down in Na Orlans. Look I had a terrible childhood [as two violins play in the background] but you get to work and build your life. Europa everybody sits around in cafes whinning about us because their lives are crap. If they had jobs they could be productive. Two world wars that they started has left their goverments planning everything in their miserable soccer lives. Goverment took control after ww2 and now has to solve everything. The commies used the epic movie "Grapes of Wrath" to show how terrible Amercia is. Guess what happened the poor Russian people question why do they have cars to get around in. So it ain't that bad. Yes their is shortages of food in the US. The other day my favorite hoagie shop ran out of pepper jack. Thank the heavens and George Bush for stocking up on Swiss, Cheddar, Provalone, and God Bless American. Later Gators PC!

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 15, 2008 6:01 AM

Quote:
If Siggy ever did anything but point out (and often exaggerate) things that aren't right in the US, I'd consider her just like anyone else. There's good and bad here to be noted. But she's 100% critical of everything about the US, or at least has never mentioned a positive. I'd say that qualifies as hating.

Geezer, can you even envision for a moment a LITTLE bit of air between "the United States" and "capitalism"? Or are they synonymous in your mind?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

CITIZEN

Sunday, June 15, 2008 8:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Umm, the GOP controls nary any of the media, and its the Democrats who control both Congress and Senate. What civics courses you took which some how states a party only owning 1/3 of the 3 branches of Government is somehow in control of that Gov....is beyond me.

Well, the media thing goes round in circles, I've presented numerous arguments as to why the American media is largely Republican controlled, not just indirectly as to who actually owns it, but directly as to how and what they report. In turn you've argued that they're Democrat controlled because they just are, which is not an argument I find compelling. Frankly at this moment my stance on the affiliation of the American media is much stronger and better supported than yours, even if I do say so myself. I'm not saying I'm defiantly right, just that my position has been proved to a more substantial degree than yours.

Secondly, I said most of the time, AU. I'm talking trends and historically, you're pointing at the present situation where Democrats have been voted in, after more and more disastrous Republican policies. The current situation doesn't refute the trend, and the Republicans have been in complete control of the Government for the most of the last decade. The Republicans are in control of the house of representatives and the presidency far more often than they are not, which is basically what I said, and that assertion is not refuted by saying "not at the moment they're not!". How you can think it does is also beyond me

.

Look up the voting record and prove me wrong. Prove that Republicans don't spend more time in power. If you find they do, you'll have to admit that saying they're 'minority victims' of 'left whatever' is completely ridiculous, because it's hard to see how those who hold power can be 'minority victims' in any stretch of the phrase. I rather suspect that convincing themselves and more besides that they are victims, is one of the most potent weapons in the Republican arsenal. It means, for instance, that the Republicans can control the US media, make the opposition look bad and themselves look good, and any bad press of the Republicans that gets through can be diminished, because of the Liberal Bias, and any criticism of the Democrats amplified because it made it through that bias, so it must be sooo much worse than they say.

It really is a fantastic weapon in their arsenal, and I suspect has much to do with the control they tend to exert.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:22 AM

Yep.... no surprises here.

People posted exactly what I thought they would post in here. You've got your crazies that hate America , particularly the ones who live here because it's not the Utopia they thought it was growing up. And you got your crazies who are so Nationalistic that they are blind to all of the injustices that we are allowing our government do to foreign countries and its own people. Then of course you've got the people who never post in here but because they either don't like me or don't like my opinions they need to make jokes about my spelling being Basic English...

Then there is the ray of hope.... your thinking people who appreciate just how great they have it, or at the very least the potential for how great they could have it if we restored the checks and balances that once made this nation great.

It's really sad though. Most of you are so anti American it makes me sick. And of the ones who aren't, many back a system that is so misrepresenting what we are supposed to be that you just give the haters the fuel they need to keep on hating.

Go ahead. Throw it away. Keep hating yourself and your country and just keep whining. You armchair warriors. You, who don't deserve the freedoms that you do have and deserve to have the ones that are left stripped away from you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

AURAPTOR

Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:42 AM

citizen, how you continue to get some things constantly wrong is beyond me. I never said that the media is biased " just because they are ", but because the studies support that conclusion!

Washington Bureau Chiefs and Correspondents

In April 1996, the Freedom Forum published a report by Chicago Tribune writer Elaine Povich titled, “Partners and Adversaries: The Contentious Connection Between Congress and the Media.” Buried in Appendix D was the real news for those concerned about media bias: Based on the 139 Washington bureau chiefs and congressional correspondents who returned the Freedom Forum questionnaire, the Washington-based reporters — by an incredible margin of nine-to-one — overwhelmingly cast their presidential ballots in 1992 for Democrat Bill Clinton over Republican incumbent George Bush.

http://www.mediaresearch.org/biasbasics/biasbasics3.asp

You continue to falsly assume that, because some one owns a radio or t.v. network, and they might be conservative, they MUST dictate how the news gets reported. CLEARLY, the evidence does not support that claim.

Quote:
The Republicans are in control of the house of representatives and the presidency far more often than they are not, which is basically what I said, and that assertion is not refuted by saying "not at the moment they're not!". How you can think it does is also beyond me

Well, I'll give you half credit on this one. True, the GOP has sat in the Oval Office much more than the Democrats. But as for the House of Representatives ?? Another lesson begins.....

The Democratic Party dominated the House of Representatives during the administration of President Franklin D. Roosevelt (1933–1945), often winning over two-thirds of the seats. Both Democrats and Republicans were in power at various times during the next decade. The Democratic Party maintained control of the House from 1954 until 1995. ( That's 40 yrs )The Republicans took control of the House in 1995, under the leadership of Speaker Newt Gingrich. The Republicans would hold on to the House until the United States Congressional elections, 2006, during which the Democrats won back control of both the House of Representatives and, narrowly, the Senate.

You've been proven wrong. Sorry.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

GEEZER

Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, can you even envision for a moment a LITTLE bit of air between "the United States" and "capitalism"? Or are they synonymous in your mind?

In at least one respect they are synonymous. You never have anything good to say about either.

I can only go on what I see here in RWED, but all I see from you is someone who spouts unremitting vitriol against the US, and at anyone who does not agree with 100% of your opinions about it. You don't look for compromise or solutions, don't consider that anyone else can have a valid point of view that differs from yours, and go out of your way to antagonise any one who disagrees with you.

If I've missed some thread where you say "well, I actually like this particular thing about the people or government of the US." please point it out to me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You continue to falsly assume that, because some one owns a radio or t.v. network, and they might be conservative, they MUST dictate how the news gets reported. CLEARLY, the evidence does not support that claim.

No, you falsely assume that A reporters personal political opinion has some bearing on what they can report, when clearly the evidence, that what the news outlets actually report and how they do so refutes that claim. It's just plain silly, you're assertion is essentially that the secretary on the front desk has more bearing on company policy and output than the CEO. The guy at the top makes the policy, the guy at the top decides what leaves his newsroom, not the cogs in the machine. If the head of the organisation is a Republican, and their interests are best served by Republicans, they're going to support Republicans. The organisations policy will be to support Republicans. The individual Journalists could politically support anyone they like, but if they're reporting doesn't tow the line of the organisations policy, it won't be reported. That's what editors are for. It's just plain silly to suggest that journalists have more power than editors.

More over, you're alluding to evidence that clearly shows this or that, but you've not provided any. You've shown that Journalists tend to lean left, fair enough, but your assumption that they're reporting and that of the media leans left is still unproven. You've proven the first part of your theory, but not the progression, link nor outcome, that's all left up to your assumption. On the other hand I've given numerous examples before now where the US media demonstrably swings to support of Republicans. You're hung up on what the journalists think, but it proves nothing, you need to demonstrate where the media, not individual journalist, actually leans left. You haven't done that.

Quote:
When, in late July, a study was released suggesting that George W. Bush was getting more positive presidential election coverage than Al Gore, the Media Research Center wasted no time in bringing out the long knives.

The study was conducted by the Project for Excellence in Journalism and the Committee for Concerned Journalists ("funded by the liberal Pew Charitable Trusts," MRC wants you to know) and was based on one sample week each month over five months in early 2000, focused on media coverage of specific character-related "themes" of the Bush and Gore campaign. It concluded that coverage of Gore tended to focus on negative themes, while coverage of Bush tended to focus on positive themes.

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2000/votestudy.html

Quote:
The findings include:

# On select issues from corporate power and trade to Social Security and Medicare to health care and taxes, journalists are actually more conservative than the general public.

# Journalists are mostly centrist in their political orientation.

# The minority of journalists who do not identify with the "center" are more likely to identify with the "right" when it comes to economic issues and to identify with the "left" when it comes to social issues.

# Journalists report that "business-oriented news outlets" and "major daily newspapers" provide the highest quality coverage of economic policy issues, while "broadcast network TV news" and "cable news services" provide the worst.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447
Right-Wing Media Groups Provide Ammo for "Liberal Media" Claims
http://www.fair.org/extra/9807/myth-makers.html

Quote:
Well, I'll give you half credit on this one. True, the GOP has sat in the Oval Office much more than the Democrats. But as for the House of Representatives ?? Another lesson begins.....

Well, it's funny I have to tell you this, but over the last century the Executive Branch of the United States government has grown to wield much more power than the founding fathers ever intended, and certainly more than the House of Representatives that it's supposed to be on equal footi

RALLEM

Sunday, June 15, 2008 12:55 PM

I often go to the Scieceagogo web site where there are people who are claiming that we are evil for wanting to turn our crops into fuel rather than to feed the poor and starving nations of the world, and my arguments to this are that it is the poor and starving nations which are evil for making more babies then they can feed, that simply because we have the ability to grow food enough to feed the poor and starving nations does not in any way obligate us to do so, and hat the Farmers in the United States have the right to do what ever they please with their crops. The Farmer’s first responsibility after God is to their families, and just because we fulfill a Christian sense of charity by giving the people of these poor and starving nations food does not give others the right to call us evil and greedy when ever that food does not get delivered. That goes doubly when it is the poor and starving nations of the world who refuse the boatloads of food we send them because the food was genetically altered and they do not wish to contaminate themselves or their land.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

AURAPTOR

Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:01 PM

Quote:
You're hung up on what the journalists think, but it proves nothing, you need to demonstrate where the media, not individual journalist, actually leans left. You haven't done that.

Now I have. Enjoy

While the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal is conservative, the newspaper's news pages are liberal, even more liberal than The New York Times. The Drudge Report may have a right-wing reputation, but it leans left. Coverage by public television and radio is conservative compared to the rest of the mainstream media. Meanwhile, almost all major media outlets tilt to the left.

These are just a few of the surprising findings from a UCLA-led study, which is believed to be the first successful attempt at objectively quantifying bias in a range of media outlets and ranking them accordingly.

"I suspected that many media outlets would tilt to the left because surveys have shown that reporters tend to vote more Democrat than Republican," said Tim Groseclose, a UCLA political scientist and the study's lead author. "But I was surprised at just how pronounced the distinctions are."

"Overall, the major media outlets are quite moderate compared to members of Congress, but even so, there is a quantifiable and significant bias in that nearly all of them lean to the left," said co‑author Jeffrey Milyo, University of Missouri economist and public policy scholar.

The results appear in the latest issue of the Quarterly Journal of Economics, which will become available in mid-December.

Groseclose and Milyo based their research on a standard gauge of a lawmaker's support for liberal causes. Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) tracks the percentage of times that each lawmaker votes on the liberal side of an issue. Based on these votes, the ADA assigns a numerical score to each lawmaker, where "100" is the most liberal and "0" is the most conservative. After adjustments to compensate for disproportionate representation that the Senate gives to low‑population states and the lack of representation for the District of Columbia, the average ADA score in Congress (50.1) was assumed to represent the political position of the average U.S. voter.

Groseclose and Milyo then directed 21 research assistants — most of them college students — to scour U.S. media coverage of the past 10 years. They tallied the number of times each media outlet referred to think tanks and policy groups, such as the left-leaning NAACP or the right-leaning Heritage Foundation.

Next, they did the same exercise with speeches of U.S. lawmakers. If a media outlet displayed a citation pattern similar to that of a lawmaker, then Groseclose and Milyo's method assigned both a similar ADA score.

"A media person would have never done this study," said Groseclose, a UCLA political science professor, whose research and teaching focuses on the U.S. Congress. "It takes a Congress scholar even to think of using ADA scores as a measure. And I don't think many media scholars would have considered comparing news stories to congressional speeches."

Of the 20 major media outlets studied, 18 scored left of center, with CBS' "Evening News," The New York Times and the Los Angeles Times ranking second, third and fourth most liberal behind the news pages of The Wall Street Journal.

Only Fox News' "Special Report With Brit Hume" and The Washington Times scored right of the average U.S. voter.

The most centrist outlet proved to be the "NewsHour With Jim Lehrer." CNN's "NewsNight With Aaron Brown" and ABC's "Good Morning America" were a close second and third.

"Our estimates for these outlets, we feel, give particular credibility to our efforts, as three of the four moderators for the 2004 presidential and vice-presidential debates came from these three news outlets — Jim Lehrer, Charlie Gibson and Gwen Ifill," Groseclose said. "If these newscasters weren't centrist, staffers for one of the campaign teams would have objected and insisted on other moderators."

The fourth most centrist outle

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:27 PM

Quote:
In at least one respect they are synonymous. You never have anything good to say about either.

Not true. IMHO, everything that's seriously wrong with the United States can be traced back to corporatism. I've had lots of good things to say about our Constitution, separation of church and state, ability to self-correct etc. Unlike some of our Libertarian brethren I even envision a positive role for elected government. But even tho they want to do away with our government altogether- which is bordering on sedition- I don't see you fretting about them!

Must be because your real allegiance is to wealth, not democracy.

Quote:
I can only go on what I see here in RWED, but all I see from you is someone who spouts unremitting vitriol against the US, and at anyone who does not agree with 100% of your opinions about it.

Awww.... you're just mad because I once said you were as stupid as Rapo because, for once, you actually were. But that's OK, I forgive you!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

CITIZEN

Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Now I have. Enjoy
...
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-666
4.aspx?RelNum=6664

Cool, now we have something to work with. This is, in fact an opinion piece, with no links as I can see to the actual underlying study itself, but lets ignore that for the moment to focus on what it says about the study. This ADA scale seems a singularly ineffective match to media outlets, it's one thing to judge law makers by the way they vote, but quite another to judge media outlets on a subjective scale, based on criteria that seem fairly arbitrary. The criteria, i.e. who they cite seems faulty at best, since it makes no allowances for actual content.

The ADA scale, when used for congressmen, analyses they're conclusions through they're voting record. Here they've applied it to analyse supporting citations, not the conclusions that are drawn. That is, if the outlet cited only left wing sources, but always reached right wing conclusions, this method would define it as left-wing. I question the validity of that methodology.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:58 PM

Auraptor: I haven't read the paper, but I immediately have three fundamental question about it

1) Who decides whether a think tank is left, middle of the road, or centrist? My definitions could be very different from the authors', so what are their criteria? Seat of the pants? since they use those assumptions to set the mathematical "boundaries" for the study it's important what those are.

2) In addition, since only successful and moneyed foundations are actually likely to be quoted in the news, and most of these foundation get their money from corporations, its unlikely that they represent the real range of public opinion which is likely to be much broader.

I think it would have been far more accurate to look at non-profits (NGOs) and churches which derive their income from individual donations (people voting with their hard-earned money), and see how many times those organizations are cited in the news! The NRDC versus The Assemblies of God smackdown!

3) Why do the authors assume that the Senate's range of opinion represents the US population's? Senate membership is highly filtered by money, so it's unlikely that you'll find the endpoints on either end of ANY spectrum in the Senate. At best, I think the Senate (just like the think tanks) represent a muffled version of our diverse viewpoints.

When I read the paper, perhaps I'll have more questions.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

GEEZER

Sunday, June 15, 2008 3:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
IMHO, everything that's seriously wrong with the United States can be traced back to corporatism.

So you didn't like the New Deal?

But you didn't mention corporatism in your response to 6ix, unless you consider corporatism and monopolism synonymous, in which case I guess we need a SignyM dictionary. Your response targets the US.

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

Quote:
I've had lots of good things to say about our Constitution, separation of church and state, ability to self-correct etc.

I can't find them. Cites please.

Quote:
Unlike some of our Libertarian brethren I even envision a positive role for elected government.

you mean "...our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."? And BTW, even the most ardent libertarian here knows that we're not going to get rid of government alltogether. most would be happy just reducing its size and power.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Sunday, June 15, 2008 3:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Cool, now we have something to work with. This is, in fact an opinion piece, with no links as I can see to the actual underlying study itself...

Here it is.

http://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/MediaBias.doc

Edit to add: ...and their defense against a critical review.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001301.html

"Keep the Shiny side up"

AURAPTOR

Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:02 PM

No time to fully respond to the questions you posed ( going to a FIREFLY meet up ) but I've always noticed how, when a think tank is mentioned in the media, it's always referred to as a "conservative " think tank, if its conservative, but almost never are Liberal think tanks referred in like manner.

Just my 2 cents.

As you were.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KWICKO

Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:13 PM

'Rappy: I note your source for your "liberal bias" claim as the Media Research Center, the same Media Research Center that had THIS to say:

Quote:
We are training our guns on any media outlet or any reporter interfering with America's war on terrorism or trying to undermine the authority of President Bush. We are taking no prisoners!

So clearly you can see that they have a little "bias" of their own.

That crap about owners of news outlets not having any say in how news is reported or slanted is utter gunk. You claim that, and THEN also claim that a reporter's political leanings DO obviously affect the way that THEY report or slant a story. Trying to have it both ways much?

As for the Media Research Center's "facts" - I'll give them exactly as much credence as you'd give an investigative piece published in Vanity Fair or the New York Times: none whatsoever.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 15, 2008 4:29 PM

Quote:
unless you consider corporatism and monopolism synonymous

Geezer, I've often said the inevitable end stage of capitalism is monopolism (or corporatism). And we're there.

"They're jealous of our long work hours..."
And who made that necessary? Corporations, of course.

"our high crime rate, our homelessness..."
In my opinion, a result of an economic ideology that pits everyone against everyone, where there is no room for societal goals.

"our boob of a President..."
Thanks to the dumbed-down discourse that been foisted on us by an advertising culture and corporately-owned media.

"our monopolism..."
Thanks to, well, the monopolies

"our lack of health-care."
Thanks to corporations

"And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."
Thanks to Diebold, Choicepoint, and other corporations, and the prevailing viewpoint that anything that can be done MUST be done by a for-profit business... including the voting process. (See Hacking Democracy)

Quote:
I can't find them. Cites please

It's an ongoing discussion with Finn about patriotism versus republicanism. I'm not going to find it for you but it pops up here and there.

Quote:
And BTW, even the most ardent libertarian here knows that we're not going to get rid of government alltogether. most would be happy just reducing its size and power.

mmm... I get a very distinct "camel's nose in the tent" whiff from you, Sarge, and Frem about Libertarianism, which often seems just a cover for corporo-anarchism.... or is it anarcho-corporatism? And any government function that you'd get rid of you'd replace with... ....more corporations!

As if that's gonna help!

Much as YOU would like to blur the lines the Founding Fathers, to the best of my knowledge, tried to create a system of government not a system of monopolies or an empire to feed them. When I think about what's best about this nation, its the ideals of Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin.

So now you've just read something positive from me about the USA (which, if you'd been paying attention, you'd realize is just a repeat of what I've said before.)

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

GEEZER

Sunday, June 15, 2008 8:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

"They're jealous of our long work hours..."
And who made that necessary? Corporations, of course.

"our high crime rate, our homelessness..."
In my opinion, a result of an economic ideology that pits everyone against everyone, where there is no room for societal goals.

"our boob of a President..."
Thanks to the dumbed-down discourse that been foisted on us by an advertising culture and corporately-owned media.

"our monopolism..."
Thanks to, well, the monopolies

"our lack of health-care."
Thanks to corporations

"And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."
Thanks to Diebold, Choicepoint, and other corporations, and the prevailing viewpoint that anything that can be done MUST be done by a for-profit business... including the voting process.

Even assuming that these assertions are true (but that's for another thread), the caveat that it's all due to corporatism is not what you originally said, or what you generally ever say, when the subject of the US comes up.

If we lived with the same government we had when the Founding Fathers were alive we'd still have slavery, only rich white men could vote, pretty much only men could own property, etc. I'd say there have been some improvements.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RALLEM

Monday, June 16, 2008 12:14 AM

Quote:
"They're jealous of our long work hours..."
And who made that necessary? Corporations, of course.

It used to be people in this country worked from sun up till sun down, but somewhere in the 20th century the United States Government decided that since there were 120 hours in a week that 40 of them will go to work, 40 to recreation, and 40 to sleep. I don't know where you get this gripe about having to work long hours unless you're from Italy or maybe France where they don't believe in putting in a fair days labor for a fair days pay.

Quote:
"our high crime rate, our homelessness..."
In my opinion, a result of an economic ideology that pits everyone against everyone, where there is no room for societal goals.

There were high crime rates long before there were corporations and there was a high level of homelessness then too, and the causes for homelessness are plentiful so trying to blame these issues on corporations is a bit unfair I think. Also in America it is against the law to hold a monopoly unless you can get a special permit by the government like maybe a professional sports organization. Even then when someone can get a special license to hold a monopoly that license has to be voted upon in the senate periodically and that is why the associations like baseball and football jump whenever a congressman or senator investigates them, they might lose their license for that monopoly.

Quote:
"our boob of a President..."
Thanks to the dumbed-down discourse that been foisted on us by an advertising culture and corporately-owned media.

Our president isn't a genius because he has an IQ of 120. What is yours again? From some of the conclusions you've shown I would guess 85?

Quote:
"And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."
Thanks to Diebold, Choicepoint, and other corporations, and the prevailing viewpoint that anything that can be done MUST be done by a for-profit business... including the voting process. (See Hacking Democracy)

We are not a democracy and I am surprised that people in this country still embrace this idea that we are when it quite clearly states in paragraph four of chapter four of our constitution that the Government must be run in the form of a republic. Am I going to have to explain to you the differences between a democracy and a republic, or can I trust that you’ll look it up?

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

CITIZEN

Monday, June 16, 2008 1:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rallem:
We are not a democracy and I am surprised that people in this country still embrace this idea that we are when it quite clearly states in paragraph four of chapter four of our constitution that the Government must be run in the form of a republic. Am I going to have to explain to you the differences between a democracy and a republic, or can I trust that you’ll look it up?

I believe you need to look it up. Democracy is an Umbrella term for government formed through popular vote, which includes Democratic Republics which is what the US is. If we are to take the classical view of a Democracy, there hasn't been one since the ancient Greece city state of Athens, the term has expanded since then.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

KWICKO

Monday, June 16, 2008 3:31 AM

Quote:

Our president isn't a genius because he has an IQ of 120. What is yours again?

You really wanna know? Put it this way: in my house, the President would be the one sitting in the corner with the dunce cap on.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

KWICKO

Monday, June 16, 2008 3:46 AM

Quote:
somewhere in the 20th century the United States Government decided that since there were 120 hours in a week that 40 of them will go to work, 40 to recreation, and 40 to sleep.

Might wanna check your facts there, bub. It wasn't the US government that decided it, it was the labor unions. Be sure to thank a union member for your 40-hour week! The government didn't so much "decide" it, they mostly *accepted* it as a standard after more and more unions demanded it and got it.

From Wiki:

Quote:
In the United States, Philadelphia carpenters went on strike in 1791 for the ten-hour day. By the 1830s, this had become a general demand. In 1835, workers in Philadelphia organized a general strike, led by Irish coal heavers. Their banners read, From 6 to 6, ten hours work and two hours for meals. Labor movement publications called for an eight-hour day as early as 1836. Boston ship carpenters, although not unionized, achieved an eight-hour day in 1842.
In 1864, the eight-hour day quickly became a central demand of the Chicago labor movement. The Illinois legislature passed a law in early 1867 granting an eight-hour day but had so many loopholes that it was largely ineffective. A city-wide strike that began on May 1, 1867, shut down the city's economy for a week before collapsing. In 1868, Congress passed an eight-hour law for federal employees, which was also of limited effectiveness.
In August 1866 the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."
During the 1870s, eight hours became a central demand, especially among labor organizers, anarchists and socialists, with a network of Eight-Hour Leagues which held rallies and parades. A hundred thousand workers in New York City struck and won the eight-hour day in 1872, mostly for building trades workers. In Chicago, Albert Parsons became recording secretary of the Chicago Eight-Hour League in 1878, and was appointed a member of a national eight-hour committee in 1880.
At its convention in Chicago in 1884, the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions resolved that "eight hours shall constitute a legal day's labour from and after May 1, 1886, and that we recommend to labour organizations throughout this jurisdiction that they so direct their laws as to conform to this resolution by the time named."
The leadership of the Knights of Labor, under Terence V. Powderly, rejected appeals to join the movement as a whole, but many local Knights assemblies joined the strike call including Chicago, Cincinnati and Milwaukee. On May 1, 1886, Albert Parsons, head of the Chicago Knights of Labor, with his wife Lucy Parsons and two children, led 80,000 people down Michigan Avenue, Chicago, in what is regarded as the first-ever modern May Day Parade, in support of the eight-hour day. In the next few days they were joined nationwide by 350,000 workers who went on strike at 1,200 factories, including 70,000 in Chicago, 45,000 in New York, 32,000 in Cincinnati, and additional thousands in other cities. Some workers gained shorter hours (eight or nine) with no reduction in pay; others accepted pay cuts with the reduction in hours.

On May 3, 1886, August Spies, editor of the Arbeiter-Zeitung (Workers Newspaper), spoke at a meeting of 6,000 workers, and afterwards many of them moved down the street to harass strikebreakers at the McCormick plant in Chicago. The police arrived, opened fire, and killed four people, wounding many more. At a subsequent rally on May 4 to protest this violence, a bomb exploded at the Haymarket Square. Hundreds of labour activists were rounded up and the prominent labour leaders arrested, tried, convicted, and executed giving the movement its first martyrs. On June 26, 1893 Illinois Governor John Peter Altgeld set the remainin

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SIGNYM

Monday, June 16, 2008 3:56 AM

Quote:
Even assuming that these assertions are true (but that's for another thread), the caveat that it's all due to corporatism is not what you originally said, or what you generally ever say, when the subject of the US comes up.

Oh? I thought I've been pellucidly clear from the start that most of our interventions and our "foreign aid" support "our" corporate interests abroad. I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you. Is it necessary to restate in every single thread what I think is behind our ethical lapses? Apparently, for you, it is!

Quote:
If we lived with the same government we had when the Founding Fathers were alive we'd still have slavery, only rich white men could vote, pretty much only men could own property, etc. I'd say there have been some improvements.

I'm all for improving our government; that means that we come closer to the ideals ( You Do know what those are, right?) that our nation was founded on.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

SIGNYM

Monday, June 16, 2008 4:12 AM

Rallem, your statements ignorant beyond belief.

Quote:
It used to be people in this country worked from sun up till sun down, but somewhere in the 20th century the United States Government decided that since there were 120 hours in a week that 40 of them will go to work, 40 to recreation, and 40 to sleep. I don't know where you get this gripe about having to work long hours unless you're from Italy or maybe France where they don't believe in putting in a fair days labor for a fair days pay.

What is the point of labor-saving devices if they don't... er, save labor? I thought that was the whole point of automation, and other advanced methods of production. But if you want to go back to 200-year-old methods of production, feel free!

Also, as Kwicko pointed out, it wasn't "the government" that "decided" on a 40-hour week.

Quote:
There were high crime rates long before there were corporations and there was a high level of homelessness then too, and the causes for homelessness are plentiful so trying to blame these issues on corporations is a bit unfair I think.

But to have such high crimes rates and homelessness in such a nominally wealth nation is an anomaly.

Quote:
Also in America it is against the law to hold a monopoly unless you can get a special permit by the government like maybe a professional sports organization.

That is absolutely not true. It is PERFECTLY LEGAL to hold a monopoly. What is illegal is to engage in anticompetitive practices. But our pro-corporate government seems not to prosecute for that, either. I can show you several cases where recent administrations have either encouraged consolidation (FCC, DMCA) or failed to effectively prosecute blatant anti-competitive practices (Justice Department v Microsoft).

Quote:
Our president isn't a genius because he has an IQ of 120. What is yours again? From some of the conclusions you've shown I would guess 85?

It's higher than Bush's by a darn sight (but BTW I doubt he has an IQ of 120. Or, if he did, that was before he fried his brain with drugs and alcohol) and prolly higher than yours by quite a bit more.

Quote:
We are not a democracy and I am surprised that people in this country still embrace this idea that we are when it quite clearly states in paragraph four of chapter four of our constitution that the Government must be run in the form of a republic. Am I going to have to explain to you the differences between a democracy and a republic, or can I trust that you’ll look it up?

How does that address the issue of fraudulent voting systems? Oh... it doesn't. But nice try, though. You DID pick up on the fact that it has something to do with voting!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

SIGNYM

Monday, June 16, 2008 5:53 AM

The main conclusion of the report seems to be

Quote:
All of the news outlets except Fox News’ Special Report received a score to the left of the average member of Congress.

That doesn't seem to be a particularly stunning conclusion, since it's based on too many assumptions (1. Members of Congress probably don't represent the range of American viewpoints especially since we have a large percentage of non-voters. 2. A successful run for Congress depends on raising or having a lot of money which skews who can participate.)

So off the bat, I'd say- Ho hum.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, June 16, 2008 9:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I've never quite understood why Americans think themselves the freest nation on the planet. It's probably the Netherlands or another small European country - their citizens are trusted to be free and take responsibility for their own lives and there's no phony war on drugs nor religious masses oppressing anyone who differs from Judeo-Christian paths.

You're not even the freest nation in North America.

Yep, Hitler really loved that whole freedom thing....

GEEZER

Monday, June 16, 2008 1:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I thought I've been pellucidly clear from the start that most of our interventions and our "foreign aid" support "our" corporate interests abroad. I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you.

So, to paraphrase, "SignyM, can you even envision for a moment a LITTLE bit of air between "the United States" and "capitalism"? Or are they synonymous in your mind?"

Apparently they are, since it's never, "the capitalists did this" and always "We (the US) did this". Capitalism, in your worldview, can do no good, and since capitalism and the US are the same to you, the US can do no good either.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Monday, June 16, 2008 1:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I've never quite understood why Americans think themselves the freest nation on the planet. It's probably the Netherlands or another small European country - their citizens are trusted to be free and take responsibility for their own lives and there's no phony war on drugs nor religious masses oppressing anyone who differs from Judeo-Christian paths.

You're not even the freest nation in North America.

Yep, Hitler really loved that whole freedom thing....

Stupidest comment EVAR... but the day's still young. I'm sure you can top it.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

WULFENSTAR

Monday, June 16, 2008 2:22 PM

Dr. Ron Paul quotes:

"Having federal officials, whether judges, bureaucrats, or congressmen, impose a new definition of marriage on the people is an act of social engineering profoundly hostile to liberty."

"Everyone assumes America must play the leading role in crafting some settlement or compromise between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But Jefferson, Madison, and Washington explicitly warned against involving ourselves in foreign conflicts."

"I am absolutely opposed to a national ID card. This is a total contradiction of what a free society is all about. The purpose of government is to protect the secrecy and the privacy of all individuals, not the secrecy of government. We don't need a national ID card."

"Our country's founders cherished liberty, not democracy."

"The obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people."

"You wanna get rid of drug crime in this country? Fine, let's just get rid of all the drug laws."

Amen.

SIGNYM

Monday, June 16, 2008 2:56 PM

Quote:
Apparently they are, since it's never, "the capitalists did this" and always "We (the US) did this". Capitalism, in your worldview, can do no good, and since capitalism and the US are the same to you, the US can do no good either.

I don't know why you insist on putting words in my mouth. The United States has a huge capacity for good, and at times we actually exercise it. Rebuilding Japan and Germany was to our vast credit. So was the New Deal. The environmental movement was born here. And so was democracy.

But we've become hostage to the desires of large corporations and monopolies. Our entire foreign policy is all about conquest. We have troops everywhere they don't need to be. And sooner rather than later, our capacity for compassion, fairness, and honesty will be beaten down under the whip of raw, unbounded greed. If you present the Bill of Rights as a current law about to be passed, most people think it's "too liberal". But almost anyone will defend "capitalism" (yet another concept they don't understand) at the drop of a hat. They're like you: At a gut level they'll defend corporations first, religion second, and a democracy maybe a distant third.

Their view... YOUR view... of America is both insular and myopic. For the past 60 years or so we have been THE dominant economic and military power. We vastly changed the political and economic landscapes of over a hundred nations... mostly to their detriment.... without ever once really noticing what we did. It was all about us and always about us: What our corporations wanted, and what we could be induced to fear. I'm simply trying to open up space between corporate- America other so that we can engage self-reflection, and hopefully some self-preservation.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

SIMONWHO

Monday, June 16, 2008 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I've never quite understood why Americans think themselves the freest nation on the planet. It's probably the Netherlands or another small European country - their citizens are trusted to be free and take responsibility for their own lives and there's no phony war on drugs nor religious masses oppressing anyone who differs from Judeo-Christian paths.

You're not even the freest nation in North America.

Yep, Hitler really loved that whole freedom thing....

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Could you explain a bit further?

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2008 4:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:

Not quite sure what you mean by that. Could you explain a bit further?

Small European countries produce guys like Hitler- dat s**t don't fly here in the good ole' U S of A.

*I'mguessin'isall

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2008 5:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Apparently they are, since it's never, "the capitalists did this" and always "We (the US) did this". Capitalism, in your worldview, can do no good, and since capitalism and the US are the same to you, the US can do no good either.

So...you were captain of your Strawman team in High School...?

Heh, Chrisisall

GEEZER

Monday, June 16, 2008 7:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't know why you insist on putting words in my mouth.

Because they're your words.

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

"The same way we can have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL feel like we're "being attacked"."

"I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Monday, June 16, 2008 7:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Because they're your words.

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

"The same way we can have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL feel like we're "being attacked"."

"I can point to whole swaths of the globe where we've either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so we could get our bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Tran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you."

Is any of that factually incorrect?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SIGNYM

Monday, June 16, 2008 9:26 PM

That's the problem when talking about collectives. There really is no such thing as "we" in America, since the USA is home to groups with irrevocably conflicting interests. So would you feel better if I used "The rich and powerful of United States" shortened to RAPUSA, and use "we", "us" and "ours" to represent the 99.9% who're along for the ride?

So, how's this?

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

"The same way the RAPUSA have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL promote the idea that we're "being attacked"."

"I can point to whole swaths of the globe where the RAPUSA have either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so they could get their bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Iran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you cheaply, and make huge profits."

There! Now that I've gotten rid of that artificial unity, that's clearer, I think!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

KWICKO

Monday, June 16, 2008 9:32 PM

As Citizen asked, is any of it factually incorrect? If it's not, then how is it "hating America" to say it out loud?

I *DO* think America is a pretty damn good country, but I also think we can do a helluva lot better, and it's not unpatriotic to appeal to our better angels and to hold out hope.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

RUE

Monday, June 16, 2008 9:37 PM

6-ix

What have you been smoking ? Seriously. They don't hate us, least of all for the reasons you say they do. They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

***************************************************************
That's why gas is 3.00 Euros/ gal in the good ol' US of A - 'cause the rest of the world is SOOooooo over the US dollar. Also pretty much over what the US thinks, what the US wants, how the US is doing ...

... and ehh, realistically, what are we going to do about it ? Cry ? Pout ? Give baby Bush his nuclear tantrum ?

WHODIED

Monday, June 16, 2008 10:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

I hope your right, and that we take this opportunity to put our house in order.

I, like most, love my country, but like many, am learning to loathe my government. I'm not just talking Bush, but the whole corrupt lot.

What worries me is, while it was the Goths who sacked Rome, it was the slaves who opened the gates.

--WhoDied

_______________________

I'm supposed to deliver you to the master now.
There's this whole deal where I get to be immortal. You cool with that?

RUE

Monday, June 16, 2008 11:00 PM

No matter what, we still really need to put our house in order.

BTW there will always be a few crazies - like the oddball yelling and swinging his arm as he walks down the street - so that's not to say the US is perfectly immune. And it never will be, and no other country ever will be, either. Perfect safety is a foolish fantasy. But there's no return when you sink your resources into hate. So it's just not worth it to anyone else.

If anything what the US has to worry about is the creditor's rush. If it looks like the US is going to go under economically, the country first in line to collect the US debt will be the best off. The Chinese are already buying US industries (not just businesses - industries) with the US dollars they loaned to us so we could buy their goods.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Is any of that factually incorrect?

Some is debatable, and some may be true but is not necessarily bad.

Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Homelessness? Hard to say, since there's no consistant measurement. Nationmaster says 3 million in the EU and 750 thousand in the US.

Boob of a president? Personal opinion.

Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
As Citizen asked, is any of it factually incorrect? If it's not, then how is it "hating America" to say it out loud?

See above. I don't have a problem with pointing out problems. I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world. Look at the first two posts in this thread, and tell me that's not what SignyM is doing. Look at any post where someone suggests that the U.S. is doing something right and see if SignyM doesn't provide her same list.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:38 AM

Quote:
I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world. Look at the first two posts in this thread, and tell me that's not what SignyM is doing.

I'd say there's quite a gap between listing some of our misdeeds and suggesting that we're "the worst country in the world". That's kind of like saying Shaq is a crap basketball player just because he can't make a free throw. Pointing out our failings isn't saying we're horrible; it's simply saying we can, and need to, do better.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

RUE

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:12 AM

Well, Geezer, let's look at facts then -- shall we ?

Happiest people ? Icelanders ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/18/iceland) or Danes ( http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1). The US ranks about 23 ( http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/news/press-releases/2000-2009/2006/07/n
particle.2006-07-28.2448323827).

Longest lived ? Japan, followed by Switzerland, Iceland, Sweden, Spain ... the US ranked 17th of 33 ... ( http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DF1E31F934A35757C
0A966958260)

Best health system performance (ranked by WHO) France. The US was 37th ( http://www.ilmaternal.org/MIMS/39).

Percentage of births to young women under 20 - Denmark is the lowest with 1.3, Sweden 1.6, Italy and the Netherlands tied at 1.7, France and Slovenia tied at 2.0, while the US is 11 topped only by Romania (Romania ! for god's sake) at 13.5 ( http://www.ilmaternal.org/MIMS/39).

Home ownership percentage ? Well, that winner would be Portugal at 85%. Rounding out the top 5 are Canada 82%, Norway 77% and Spain 77% and Belgium 71% ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_the_United_States).

How about freedom of the press ? Finland is #1. The US is 31st, far behind Latvia, the Czech Republic, or Slovenia ( http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247).

What about education level ? Tiny Latvia has a 50.77 % college graduate population, Lithuania 47.31, Australia 47.12, Taiwan (2003) 43.79, Portugal 41.59, United Kingdom (2003) 39.66 ... and skipping down to 14th place comes the US at 33.91
( http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/append/c2/at02-37.xls).

So how about finding something the US can win !

Percent of uninsured ? Well, in that case the US WINS ! In percentage terms (2006, but it's higher now) roughly 17% of the US was uninsured ( http://www.aha.org/aha/trendwatch/chartbook/2008/08chart1-15.ppt). The others are close to zero.

Percent in poverty ? The US wins AGAIN ! In 2004 the total US poverty rate was 17%, second was Australia 14.3%, third was Italy 12.7% - at the bottom of the list Sweden was 6.5%, Norway 6.4% and Finland 5.4% ( http://www.epi.org/books/swa2004/news/swafacts_international.pdf).

Throwing money at corporate healthcare ! Why, the US has hit another winner ! Far outstripping every modern country in per capita spending the US shows how little can be gained for so much money ! http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/01/odd-chart-of-th.html

How about murder rates ? At 5.7 / 100,000 the US is easily 40% higher than the next developed nation, Spain at 3.35 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate).

***************************************************************
Yes, while the US wins in very few categories, the ones it does win in are important and shouldn't be overlooked. Once again, you can be proud to say: the US IS NUMBER ONE !

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:02 AM

Quote:
Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Yeah,how about the lady who told Bush that she was working three jobs and couldn't break even?

Quote:
Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Oh yeah, those are the really scary crimes

Quote:
Homelessness? Hard to say, since there's no consistant measurement. Nationmaster says 3 million in the EU and 750 thousand in the US.

The best estimate for the USA appears to be about 3.5 million www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/How_Many.pdf
There is, as you say, no unified measure across the EU of homelessness, but they include living in extreme crowding or in unconventional habitation (eg mobile homes) in their definition of homelessness as well as "sleeping rough". http://feantsa.horus.be/code/EN/pg.asp?Page=882 Perhaps figures will be made available this year.

Quote:
Boob of a president? Personal opinion.

Which is pretty much what non_Americans think of Bush.So, of course they're not jealous of us because of our President!

Quote:
Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

Yeah, too bad it doesn't get us as much actual health care as other nations get.

Quote:
I don't have a problem with pointing out problems. I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world.

So now you're putting words in 6ix's mouth? That's not exactly what he said, was it?

So, strawman much, do ya?

Yanno, I'm really worried about the path we're on. I really think that we're at a turning point in American history. The dollar is about to become a second-tier currency, oil is at a record high, our budget is busted, China is roaring ahead, and we're at an ecological tipping point. Meanwhile, we've got a three trillion-dollar anchor around our necks. (I'm speaking of the 99.9% "we".)
Really, if we don't address these problems with some urgency things are going to get really tough for us. And given that most of the world resents us... if not outright hates us... they'll be happy to watch us swirl down the drain.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

RIGHTEOUS9

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:20 AM

One thing Geezer,

we should not be in the business of maintaining out status as not the worst country in the world. We should be striving to be the best country in the world, and for God's sake, it really doesn't even matter if there are people who have nothing good to say about America,

people who focus on them being "anti american" are just plain deflecting from the real issue, which is ONLY - "are these criticisms valid?"

It does our nation a grave diservice in my opinion, to avoid asking that question, and instead find contentedness in untested mantras like
"we're still the best country in the world,"

or worse, to find personal appeasement in lowball comparissons, like, "yeah? well what about Cuba!"

and worse still, to demonize those who criticize r nation as if that could make the very criticisms untrustworthy acts of anti-american terrorism.

The American spirit should sound like this. "We're not #1 in upward mobility? let's get on that then!"

Instead its always a fight to even get people to examine the basic facts of these issues.

I personally have never heard Sygm say anythng that I felt was unpatriotic, in fact quite the contrary,

but you know, it's America, and we even have a right to hate the country we live in, and nobody can browbeat people into liking it, they can merely make it a better place, further beyond reproach, where critics are free to exist but look rather silly, when they start talking

Sadly, that isn't the country we live in right now.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Since when does the average person want too work longer? I've seen the comparative differences in treatment of workers in the US, here and other places, and really comparatively the US treats employees rights with distaste, like treating employees like Human beings has the faintest whiff of communism?

Quote:
Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Types of crimes though, most of the crime in the UK was petty, where as the US was way out in front with violent Crime, when we went over this in a previous thread. If I had to be the victim of crime I'd rather have my car keyed a couple of times than be stabbed or shot.

Quote:
Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

Yeah, but then from continued stories in the US media it seems the US is having massive problems too. Such as kids dying of toothache because they have no access to health care. The accusation tends to be that the US spends the most on healthcare, but receives less coverage and lower quality than other places, which is why people say private only healthcare is bad. I find stories such as when my Girlfriend had to stop seeking tests, not treatment, tests, because she couldn't afford any more, despite having and paying insurance, disgusting, geezer. Essentially she was denied treatment because she wasn't rich enough, yet the US healthcare system receives more money than any other Geezer, so what gives? Is saying I find that disgusting Anti-American?

For Signym to spend most of his time bitching about what's wrong with the US, doesn't make him anti American. Arguably a glass half empty kind of guy, but it doesn't tend to be the 'glass is full ignore reality' people that top the glass up, eh.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
It does our nation a grave diservice in my opinion, to avoid asking that question, and instead find contentedness in untested mantras like
"we're still the best country in the world,"

True. I've never said we are. However, folks who have a pre-programmed script of negatives any time anyone says anything positive about the US (see Rue, SignyM, and Citizen's latest posts for an example) also do our nation a disservice by being so negative that there's no possibility of discussion about fixes other than buying whatever they're selling 100%.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:44 AM

Thanks Rue, Citizen, and SignyM for proving my point. Gosh, the US isn't number one in all categories, and maybe not so great in some. You could cherry-pick less than #1 stats for any country, and probably find some sort of #1 for each one as well. Overall, I just can't see it as gloomy as you constantly portray, or see all the world's ills as America's fault.

I got no idea why you're on such a doom and gloom kick. I just get tired of it sometimes.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:55 AM

I guess some people are too stupid to understand what's being said to them. Just because someone isn't a violent nationalist who believes every non American is sub human and deserves to die like you do, doesn't mean they're anti-American. But thanks for proving my point that you're a violent nationalist, a liar and immoral troll.

I've got no idea why you hate non-Americans so much, I just get tired of it sometimes.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:36 PM

Geezer, I know it's a bummer to have your comfortable life intruded on, but the reality is that most people in the USA are hurting right now and only the very top 0.01% benefit from the status quo.

When we were the biggest (in fact, the only) undamaged industrial nation left standing after WWII we (the people) could afford to be lax about our interests because the RAPUSA were busy skinning the hides of everyone else (Germany and Japan excepted). But we're at a stage where there is no more "there" to exploit and the wealthy would just as happily flush us down the drain for a few more years of profit, and in fact have been busy doing so for the past 15-20 years. It's just now the pain is coming home for real

Just unplug that probe from the base of your skull for a moment, and think about what THIS NATION needs right now. Not that top 0.01% which you conflate with "the USA" but Joe and Jane Anyone. When I have more time, I'll tell you what I think but right now I have to get back to work.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

RUE

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:58 PM

Geezer

Why don't you cherry pick some #1 stats for us and show us how great the US is for the vast majority of people who live here. Do some homework, for a change, and address the topic instead of indulging in your usual ad hominems, attempted debate derailing, straw-man arguments, and topic switching.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But thanks for proving my point that you're a violent nationalist, a liar and immoral troll.

I've got no idea why you hate non-Americans so much, I just get tired of it sometimes.

Examples of me being a violent nationalist or hating non-Americans would be nice. Betcha can't find any.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Examples of me being a violent nationalist or hating non-Americans would be nice. Betcha can't find any.

Examples of me saying everything in the world is America's fault would be nice, betcha can't find any.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I know it's a bummer to have your comfortable life intruded on, but the reality is that most people in the USA are hurting right now and only the very top 0.01% benefit from the status quo.

I sure don't hang out with the top 0.01%, and the folks I know - family, friends, etc. - are doing fine. No doubt some people are hurting, but I doubt "most" are.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Examples of me saying everything in the world is America's fault would be nice, betcha can't find any.

Well OK, the majority of things.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CITIZEN

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Well OK, the majority of things.

Well Ok, you hate the majority of non-Americans.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

RUE

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:08 PM

"... or at least has never mentioned a positive ... never have a positive thing to say about the country ... add nothing positive to a search for solutions to the problems ..."

Why Geezer :bats eyelashes: you would be describing ... ... ... YOU !

I asked for one, just one cherry-picked stat that shows how great the US is to live in. And it seems you just can't find anything nice to say.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:17 PM

Quote:
I sure don't hang out with the top 0.01%, and the folks I know - family, friends, etc. - are doing fine. No doubt some people are hurting, but I doubt "most" are.

*Geezer makes sure the jack in the base of his skull is firmly installed.*

It's easy to think everyhting is fine if you plug your ears, shut your eyes tight and hum the Star Spangled Banner loudly, but all you're doing right now is demonstrating to everyone on the board how disconnected you are from reality.

Now I know YOU'RE not going to read this, but others will so here are the facts:

Consumer Confidence in America is now -34 Down 7 points from -27 in late January
Only 17% of Americans rate the American economy as excellent or good, which is down 10% from late January. In contrast, over four-fifths of Americans, 83% (up 10%), rate the American economy as not good or poor.
www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2008/737/

US Tax Rebates Not Improving Consumer Confidence 43% view the economy as "poor" whether they've gotten a rebate or not.
www.gallup.com/poll/107449/US-Tax-Rebates-Improving-Consumer-Confidenc
e.aspx

Families have doubled their spending on gasoline from 2001 to 2007 (measured in 2001 dollars)... Median family income in real dollars is, meanwhile, slightly lower now than it was in 2001.
www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/05/up_away.html

Now, here's the kicker... we haven't even begun to pay off our war debt!
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:01 PM

Lunch time!

What I have to say is actually similar to 6ix. But I have no intention of repairing damage just so the power structure can go comfortably ignoring us peons who somehow continue to “make it work” despite the ever-tightening squeeze. F*ck no.

The FIRST thing I think we need to do is recognize that we have more in common with the Honduran shirt-maker than we do with Sam Walton or Bill Gates. Once we recognize that, we’ll stop trying so hard to export our brand of rapacious monopolism. So, specifically…

We need to get our individual and governmental finances in order. Because our government priorities are so out-of-whack it’s almost impossible to tackle individual finances until the government finances are taken care of.
First:
1) Get out of Iraq NOW I know that Iraq needs rebuilding and needs to be decentralized, and I know that we busted it so we should fix it but the reality is we can’t. We’re tapped out. Since both the EU and China have an interest in seeing Iraq start to pump oil, they should be able to pitch in and help. They probably would, if they knew we were serious about leaving.

2) W/draw our troops from the several hundred or so meaningless installations where they currently reside, like Okinawa and Germany. Do we really HAVE to be everywhere in the world like Big Brother?

3)Stop meddling in foreign governments because we think they’re some sort of “-ist” or another. I know its tough to let go of that security blanket, but our REAL interests should be prosperity, transparency, empowerment, education, and stability. It’s the opposite- poverty, secrecy, tyranny, ignorance and riot- that are our REAL enemies.

4)Raise income tax rates on the top 1% to 40%. (It’s nominally 38% now, but the ultra-wealthy are only taxed at 33% due to various loopholes, while the moderately wealthy actually pay the full 38%).

5)Close corporate tax loopholes.

6)Eliminate corporate personhood, and eliminate their “right” to privacy and “free speech”. Free speech should be exactly that: FREE. The minute you pay someone, it becomes advertising and should have the same truth-in-advert requirements as any other advert.

7)Eliminate pork-barrel legislation. We have plenty of REAL work to do without making shit up.

8)Provide government-funded, single-payer universal health care. Health care is a big drain on our economy; our manufacturing is less competitive because we’re allowing a single segment of the economy (insurances) to bleed everyone else dry.

9)Raise the Federal minimum wage to something that could actually support a person. The reason WHY some people are so strapped is because they simply don’t have enough money.

10)At the same time, conduct an anti-consumption campaign. People should be able to make enough money working to provide for the basics: Food, housing, transportation. People DON”T need big-screen TVs, the latest iPhone, or expensive cars if they can’t afford ‘em. Somewhere, that idea has gotten lost. A wealthy lifestyle is not a birthright.

11)Allow US labor unions to support labor unions abroad, and duck out NAFTA, CAFTA, and GATT.

12) Start healing our inner cities with jobs and good schools. Many people in the inner cities are growing up with PTSD because of household and neighborhood violence.

13) Decriminalize many drugs, end the so-called "War on drugs" and make enough money avilable to provide rehab for everyone who wants it, and decent mental health services for the vets (and other lunatics) who roam our streets.

14) Get serious about securing our borders. There's no reason why WE have to serve as the overflow and relief valve for nations that are corrupt and impoverished.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

RUE

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:26 PM

Still waiting for Geezer to have one positive thing to say about the US (that's fairly modern, saying it doesn't have slavery is cheating). Failing that, to come up with a positive solution to a problem.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

KWICKO

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:41 PM

Well, in Geezer's defense, we ARE Number One in at least one thing: Military Spending!

Quote:

US military spending accounts for 48 percent, or almost half, of the world’s total military spending
US military spending is more than the next 46 highest spending countries in the world combined
US military spending is 5.8 times more than China, 10.2 times more than Russia, and 98.6 times more than Iran.
US military spending is almost 55 times the spending on the six “rogue” states (Cuba, Iran, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria)

Source:
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

Of course, we're also Number One in both numbers of people in prison and percentage of our population in prison.

And we're Number One is number of prisoners to be executed.

Hey, we're really looking good! Why y'all gotta be all negative about stuff? ;)

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

RUE

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:50 PM

Well, drat-doodly-dah my negativity, then.

GO USA !!!!

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, June 20, 2008 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoDied:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

I hope your right, and that we take this opportunity to put our house in order.

I, like most, love my country, but like many, am learning to loathe my government. I'm not just talking Bush, but the whole corrupt lot.

What worries me is, while it was the Goths who sacked Rome, it was the slaves who opened the gates.

--WhoDied

_______________________

I'm supposed to deliver you to the master now.
There's this whole deal where I get to be immortal. You cool with that?

That's my stance on things and it has been since the beginning I've been here Signy. The only difference is that I don't believe it when you say it. Every word out of your mouth sounds like you feel guilty for living here and you're ashamed of being American.

All I'm trying to say is that it is possible to REALLY love your country and the privelages you were born into and also have major problems with the Status Quo. And to take that the logical step further get off our collective fat asses and do something about it. Anything that has happened in our lives is not anything that our founding fathers hadn't thought of before and did their damndest to structure a government which couldn't do them.

If we let it happen, we deserve what we get. But America bashing everyday is not the answer. I love my country. I know it's flawed, and if it weren't, it would be heaven and I probably wouldn't belong here anyways. But if we don't stand up and be counted and start making changes then what is our worth, really?

And I don't mean by getting our fat asses up long enough on our free time to vote either. Voting is has become the last desperate attempt to have some control in the lives of impotent men.

Fuck the ballot box. Stand and deliver.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

KHYRON

Friday, June 20, 2008 12:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And I don't mean by getting our fat asses up long enough on our free time to vote either. Voting is has become the last desperate attempt to have some control in the lives of impotent men.

Fuck the ballot box. Stand and deliver.

I bet you'd feel differently about voting would your guy be on the ballot.

You know I'm right ...

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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, June 20, 2008 12:58 PM

Yeah. You are right Khyron, but alas, that ended right quick the way that some of us (Hero) knew it would but others were hopeful that it might not this time.

All we're left with is two globalist elitists who will push their separate, but equally chilling Big Brother agendas in our lives. Then when the winning party today loses 4 or 8 years from now, the next president will just push the Big Brother agendas in our lives that the loser in 2008 would have been pushing the last 4 or 8 years.

I was a big fan of Marvel's "What If" series too, no matter how improbable a situation they proposed (which was a real trick given the massive improbability of the subject matter being transmuted).

EDITED TO ADD: I saw that you said "Ron Paul" before in your quote and removed it while I was posting this. Just wondering why you didn't feel like leaving that there.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

KHYRON

Friday, June 20, 2008 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
EDITED TO ADD: I saw that you said "Ron Paul" before in your quote and removed it while I was posting this. Just wondering why you didn't feel like leaving that there.

Two reasons for that. First, I haven't been on this forum for almost a year and wasn't 100% certain anymore if you were one of the Ron Paul supporters (I was fairly sure, but didn't want to risk being wrong on it and looking like a bigger fool than I usually do

). Second, I didn't want my comment to be misconstrued as being snarky towards Ron Paul or his supporters, since I sympathize with his position, even though I wouldn't vote for him.

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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, June 20, 2008 1:43 PM

Fair enough. Thanks for being honest about it.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Friday, June 20, 2008 2:43 PM

Quote:
That's my stance on things and it has been since the beginning I've been here Signy.

Um except that was Rue. While we share a lot of opinions, we're not the same person

Quote:
The only difference is that I don't believe it when you say it. Every word out of your mouth sounds like you feel guilty for living here and you're ashamed of being American.

I feel guilty for what my country has done overseas, and I'm vastly ashamed of it. I have come to (mostly) loath most politicians since Vietnam. Despite that I truly love my country.

Quote:
All I'm trying to say is that it is possible to REALLY love your country and the privelages you were born into and also have major problems with the Status Quo.

I think that's something we agree on.

Quote:
And to take that the logical step further get off our collective fat asses and do something about it.

Agreed, but... first people have to recognize that there IS a problem, and IMHO they (you) don't recognize the monster that is corporatism, because....

Quote:
Anything that has happened in our lives is not anything that our founding fathers hadn't thought of before and did their damndest to structure a government which couldn't do them.

... the one thing they DIDN'T count on was the formation of powerful corporations, the concentration of power and media in the hands of a few very wealthy people, and the corruption of government by moneyed interests. One of the FF (I forget who) basically said: This all works until we run out of land, because th ability to create your own economic independence would be there until then.

But they were devising a system of government, and it's powers and limitations vis a vis "the people", not an economic system. So all of their redress is in the form of action on "the government" through voting, leaving the corporations free to do pretty much what they want. (Unless you're a believer in putting corporations under rule of law, in which case you could seek economic remedies through political means. But failing that, our government is impotent to address many of our economic issues.)

Quote:
If we let it happen, we deserve what we get.

We're already there, 6ix.

Quote:
But America bashing everyday is not the answer.

I LOVE the United States. I HATE monopolistic corporatism. Maybe I'm singing to the choir when it comes to you, but your frustration with the rest of the world and desire to be an economic dictator (albeit a benevolent one) makes me think that you REALLY haven't "got it" yet. So I'll keep bashing away at corporatism, which- despite people's assumptions to the contrary- does NOT define "the United States.

Quote:
I love my country. I know it's flawed, and if it weren't, it would be heaven and I probably wouldn't belong here anyways. But if we don't stand up and be counted and start making changes then what is our worth, really?

I agree. But here's the deal... you can make changes in several ways.... you can be a singular person (like Napolean) acting from a position of tyranny, you can effect change through a larger group (but still a minority) by exerting yourself through revolution (like the Russian revolution) or you can get almost everyone to take two steps in one direction (like the environmental movement, the civil rights movement, or the feminist movement). The fewer the people involved, the more extreme the action required on the part of those people to create change.

However, it's been my observation that the broader the base of change the more lasting that change will be.

The way I see YOUR challenge then is to change as many minds as possible.

You haven't convince me yet that laizzes-faire monopolism combined with libertarianism is the way to go. Quite the contrary: it sounds like an economic dictatorship of nightmarish proportions.

Read Young Rissa by FM Busby... just the first fifty pages or so. You'll see what I mean.

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Let's party li

RUE

Friday, June 20, 2008 3:07 PM

6-ix

You, and many other posters here, have not had the benefit of living in countries further up on the scales: of happiness, political freedom, opportunity, education, healthcare, lifespan, economic stability, peacefulness ... you have no perspective. And no idea that that is all achievable, and being enjoyed every day by millions, billions of people. Instead you look to your fruitless daydreams of, what, freedom to smoke ?

Maybe, just maybe, the US SHOULD be bashed for how it treats its people (third class to corporations and capitalism), for what it has done around the globe (the world as corporate property), and for what it has become (a kleptocracy of, by and for the wealthy).

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

WHODIED

Friday, June 20, 2008 3:21 PM

Hear, Hear.

In America, irony isn't the fear of socialism, but the LACK of fear of fascism.

People here pull their hair and shriek piteously at the mere thought of free cough drops for poor children, meanwhile lobbyists pay congress to improve the legal standing of big business OVER individuals. (And a gesticulated fie! to the Supreme Court for helpin' 'em)

Soon, legally, you may find yourself the equivalent of 3/5 corporate entity. Think they'll make a new amendment, or just resurrect and reword the old one?

--WhoDied

_______________________

Flames wouldn’t be eternal if they actually consumed anything. But it means something that you tried.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, June 20, 2008 3:29 PM

Where'd you get all that Rue? A magazine? A book? An internet article? A Michael Moore movie?

The grass is always greener....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

RUE

Friday, June 20, 2008 3:35 PM

6-ix

Just b/c you're ignorant is no reason to assume everyone else is, too.

I lived within 5 miles of Canada for over half my life - watched Canadian TV (including their boring news with so little crime), listened to Canadian radio. And spent a little bit more than year in Canada. And have Canadian friends.

I know quite a bit about Canada, what it's like to visit, what's it's like to live there.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SIGNYM

Friday, June 20, 2008 3:36 PM

6ix- All you have to do is visit Mexico and Canada to know that national policy makes a difference. So, where would you rather live, eh?

Quote:
Soon, legally, you may find yourself the equivalent of 3/5 corporate entity

Sad to say, about 5/6 have no idea what you're talking about, and... 3/5 would actually be a step UP for us.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

KWICKO

Friday, June 20, 2008 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
6ix- All you have to do is visit Mexico and Canada to know that national policy makes a difference. So, where would you rather live, eh?
Quote:
Soon, legally, you may find yourself the equivalent of 3/5 corporate entity
Sad to say, about 5/6 have no idea what you're talking about, and... 3/5 would actually be a step UP for us.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

I like it. I read that 3/5 line and thought, "Man, I've never seen it put quite so eloquently before." That's just about a perfect analogy.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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