Screw 'em if they hate us

POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 1, 2008 09:13
VIEWED: 19860
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SIGNYM

Monday, June 16, 2008 9:26 PM

That's the problem when talking about collectives. There really is no such thing as "we" in America, since the USA is home to groups with irrevocably conflicting interests. So would you feel better if I used "The rich and powerful of United States" shortened to RAPUSA, and use "we", "us" and "ours" to represent the 99.9% who're along for the ride?

So, how's this?

"They're jealous of our long work hours, our high crime rate, our homelessness, our boob of a President, our monopolism, our lack of health-care. And what they're REALLY jealous of is our system of government, which is freely selected by a corrupted and fraudulent voting system."

"The same way the RAPUSA have our military bootprint all over the world, our soldiers in many countries and yet STILL promote the idea that we're "being attacked"."

"I can point to whole swaths of the globe where the RAPUSA have either invaded and installed a tyrant, engineered a coup, or supported a resident dictator just so they could get their bananas (Honduras), copper (Allende overthrown by Pinochet), oil (too many to name, start with Iran), shipping lanes (Panama), diamonds, or what-have-you cheaply, and make huge profits."

There! Now that I've gotten rid of that artificial unity, that's clearer, I think!

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Let's party like it's 1929.

KWICKO

Monday, June 16, 2008 9:32 PM

As Citizen asked, is any of it factually incorrect? If it's not, then how is it "hating America" to say it out loud?

I *DO* think America is a pretty damn good country, but I also think we can do a helluva lot better, and it's not unpatriotic to appeal to our better angels and to hold out hope.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

RUE

Monday, June 16, 2008 9:37 PM

6-ix

What have you been smoking ? Seriously. They don't hate us, least of all for the reasons you say they do. They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

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That's why gas is 3.00 Euros/ gal in the good ol' US of A - 'cause the rest of the world is SOOooooo over the US dollar. Also pretty much over what the US thinks, what the US wants, how the US is doing ...

... and ehh, realistically, what are we going to do about it ? Cry ? Pout ? Give baby Bush his nuclear tantrum ?

WHODIED

Monday, June 16, 2008 10:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
They've cut loose and cut the US out of the world's doings. We're less valuable or meaningful to them than last week's news.

I hope your right, and that we take this opportunity to put our house in order.

I, like most, love my country, but like many, am learning to loathe my government. I'm not just talking Bush, but the whole corrupt lot.

What worries me is, while it was the Goths who sacked Rome, it was the slaves who opened the gates.

--WhoDied

_______________________

I'm supposed to deliver you to the master now.
There's this whole deal where I get to be immortal. You cool with that?

RUE

Monday, June 16, 2008 11:00 PM

No matter what, we still really need to put our house in order.

BTW there will always be a few crazies - like the oddball yelling and swinging his arm as he walks down the street - so that's not to say the US is perfectly immune. And it never will be, and no other country ever will be, either. Perfect safety is a foolish fantasy. But there's no return when you sink your resources into hate. So it's just not worth it to anyone else.

If anything what the US has to worry about is the creditor's rush. If it looks like the US is going to go under economically, the country first in line to collect the US debt will be the best off. The Chinese are already buying US industries (not just businesses - industries) with the US dollars they loaned to us so we could buy their goods.

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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Is any of that factually incorrect?

Some is debatable, and some may be true but is not necessarily bad.

Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Homelessness? Hard to say, since there's no consistant measurement. Nationmaster says 3 million in the EU and 750 thousand in the US.

Boob of a president? Personal opinion.

Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 1:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
As Citizen asked, is any of it factually incorrect? If it's not, then how is it "hating America" to say it out loud?

See above. I don't have a problem with pointing out problems. I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world. Look at the first two posts in this thread, and tell me that's not what SignyM is doing. Look at any post where someone suggests that the U.S. is doing something right and see if SignyM doesn't provide her same list.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 2:38 AM

Quote:
I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world. Look at the first two posts in this thread, and tell me that's not what SignyM is doing.

I'd say there's quite a gap between listing some of our misdeeds and suggesting that we're "the worst country in the world". That's kind of like saying Shaq is a crap basketball player just because he can't make a free throw. Pointing out our failings isn't saying we're horrible; it's simply saying we can, and need to, do better.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

RUE

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:12 AM

Well, Geezer, let's look at facts then -- shall we ?

Happiest people ? Icelanders ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/18/iceland) or Danes ( http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1). The US ranks about 23 ( http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/news/press-releases/2000-2009/2006/07/n
particle.2006-07-28.2448323827).

Longest lived ? Japan, followed by Switzerland, Iceland, Sweden, Spain ... the US ranked 17th of 33 ... ( http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE1DF1E31F934A35757C
0A966958260)

Best health system performance (ranked by WHO) France. The US was 37th ( http://www.ilmaternal.org/MIMS/39).

Percentage of births to young women under 20 - Denmark is the lowest with 1.3, Sweden 1.6, Italy and the Netherlands tied at 1.7, France and Slovenia tied at 2.0, while the US is 11 topped only by Romania (Romania ! for god's sake) at 13.5 ( http://www.ilmaternal.org/MIMS/39).

Home ownership percentage ? Well, that winner would be Portugal at 85%. Rounding out the top 5 are Canada 82%, Norway 77% and Spain 77% and Belgium 71% ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_the_United_States).

How about freedom of the press ? Finland is #1. The US is 31st, far behind Latvia, the Czech Republic, or Slovenia ( http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247).

What about education level ? Tiny Latvia has a 50.77 % college graduate population, Lithuania 47.31, Australia 47.12, Taiwan (2003) 43.79, Portugal 41.59, United Kingdom (2003) 39.66 ... and skipping down to 14th place comes the US at 33.91
( http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind06/append/c2/at02-37.xls).

So how about finding something the US can win !

Percent of uninsured ? Well, in that case the US WINS ! In percentage terms (2006, but it's higher now) roughly 17% of the US was uninsured ( http://www.aha.org/aha/trendwatch/chartbook/2008/08chart1-15.ppt). The others are close to zero.

Percent in poverty ? The US wins AGAIN ! In 2004 the total US poverty rate was 17%, second was Australia 14.3%, third was Italy 12.7% - at the bottom of the list Sweden was 6.5%, Norway 6.4% and Finland 5.4% ( http://www.epi.org/books/swa2004/news/swafacts_international.pdf).

Throwing money at corporate healthcare ! Why, the US has hit another winner ! Far outstripping every modern country in per capita spending the US shows how little can be gained for so much money ! http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/01/odd-chart-of-th.html

How about murder rates ? At 5.7 / 100,000 the US is easily 40% higher than the next developed nation, Spain at 3.35 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate).

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Yes, while the US wins in very few categories, the ones it does win in are important and shouldn't be overlooked. Once again, you can be proud to say: the US IS NUMBER ONE !

SIGNYM

Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:02 AM

Quote:
Long work hours? Any evidence that folk don't want to work more to make more money? Is that a bad thing?

Yeah,how about the lady who told Bush that she was working three jobs and couldn't break even?

Quote:
Crime rate? Some crimes have a higher rate here and some lower. Fraud and embezzelment are higher in many nations. Total crimes are higher in Finland, Denmark and the U.K.

Oh yeah, those are the really scary crimes

Quote:
Homelessness? Hard to say, since there's no consistant measurement. Nationmaster says 3 million in the EU and 750 thousand in the US.

The best estimate for the USA appears to be about 3.5 million www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/How_Many.pdf
There is, as you say, no unified measure across the EU of homelessness, but they include living in extreme crowding or in unconventional habitation (eg mobile homes) in their definition of homelessness as well as "sleeping rough". http://feantsa.horus.be/code/EN/pg.asp?Page=882 Perhaps figures will be made available this year.

Quote:
Boob of a president? Personal opinion.

Which is pretty much what non_Americans think of Bush.So, of course they're not jealous of us because of our President!

Quote:
Lack of health care? U.S. spends more of it's GDP, percentage-wise, on healthcare than any other country. Twice as much as the U.K. which seems, from repeated stories on BBC, to be having problems with National Health

Yeah, too bad it doesn't get us as much actual health care as other nations get.

Quote:
I don't have a problem with pointing out problems. I do have a problem with running out a litany of supposed evils America has done any time anyone suggests that we're not the worst country in the world.

So now you're putting words in 6ix's mouth? That's not exactly what he said, was it?

So, strawman much, do ya?

Yanno, I'm really worried about the path we're on. I really think that we're at a turning point in American history. The dollar is about to become a second-tier currency, oil is at a record high, our budget is busted, China is roaring ahead, and we're at an ecological tipping point. Meanwhile, we've got a three trillion-dollar anchor around our necks. (I'm speaking of the 99.9% "we".)
Really, if we don't address these problems with some urgency things are going to get really tough for us. And given that most of the world resents us... if not outright hates us... they'll be happy to watch us swirl down the drain.
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Let's party like it's 1929.

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