ADHD.... Real disorder, or clever way to get us all on pills for life?

POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:03
VIEWED: 8797
PAGE 1 of 1

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:56 AM

I hear a new story about ADHD almost as often as I hear somebody on this site bashing America. And about half as much as Bush says something that just makes it easier to hate America and Americans.

ADHD..... Pretty much all of our kids have it. Now they've got half of us believing we've got it. To further their cause to make us believe that we all can't handle all of the stupid bullshit we've taken upon ourselves in this life which gets faster and faster every year, they've recruited a great looking spoksman for ADHD with that Tooltime schmuck I see smiling on all the ADHD ads.

I have an even harder time believing this is true than I do that we all need mandatory vaccinations for whatever the disease of the day is. I've even seen advertisements on TV saying that 1 out of every 166 kids born has autism. AUTISM!!!!!

1 out of 166 have Autism!

WTF? Man.... we keep letting science dictate our lives, especially considering they're always changing their minds anyways, we're all going to be on pills to modify our behavior from birth.

How about you tell me, once and for all, if milk from a cow is good for me or not before you start giving my baby anti-autism treatments... thanks.

I'm pretty sure that these kids are just the ones who would have been leaders of their smaller communities in days long gone. They are the most intelligent and outside of the box thinkers mankind has to offer, and yet, they're not needed in todays sociatial structure. In a world where any idiot can navigate via GPS and calculate numbers in the trillions and beyond in seconds via a solar calculator they got free for giving their peronal info over the web, who needs anybody that's got half a brain and a boatload of energy behind it anyhow? Aren't intelligent freethinkers boring anyhow with all their talk about things that can make your head hurt? Wouldn't you rather just watch American Idol on your Prozac and not think about anything important at all?

I really can't see how indoctrination and behavior modification via science and medicine is any improvement for the human race over indoctrination via religion.

Discuss.

EDIT: Here's the schumck I'm refering to.

Yeah. They should call it Ty Pennington's Disease. What a corporate whore. What a tool.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:07 AM

I'm basically chemical free and happy. I, personally, don't think pumping anyone full of drugs is the answer. I think there are better answers and I think I've found a lot of them. They're all very personalized and something you have to dig for and most people find that much too difficult to manage for themselves. That's about all I can contribute. You know, I'm not a doctor, so I'm not allowed to talk about anything outside my sphere of experience :-P

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

ANTIMASON

Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:15 AM

i think its a little of both; but IMO its mostly an attempt to dumb us down, drug us up, and to keep us in a docile, complacent trans-like state... in order to sidetrack us from whats really going on in the world. for one, the FDA is about as corrupt as they come anymore... just as an example, take milk(which you referenced), i found this excellent video(10min) about how FOX news deliberately covered up the story of the FDA approving BGH(bovine growth hormone)in the US.. while other countries banned it, due to controversial potential effects on humans.

i realize its not entirely on subject.. but i think its a useful premise to understand that the FDA has a reputation for seeking profit over safety; another example of this is aspartame, the artificial sweetener, which when first introduced was causing brain cancer in lab rats, but thanks to Rumsfield, and i believe it was Reagan.. the product made it to market after a coup detat at the FDA. the best thing anyone can do is become suspicious to the point of near-paranoi when it comes to federal government agencies, because there are some incredibly disgusting and traitorous things going on within the country

OLDENGLANDDRY

Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:58 AM

For once I agree with ANTIMASON (yes, it's a "dear diary" moment).
Scare-tactics and sensationalism have been a weapon of the "Ruling class", whoever that happens to be at the time, for centuries if not millenia. Once upon a time the church told us that we would all go to Hell if we did'nt follow their dictrines and now "The establishment" tells us that we will all end up in a kind of living hell if we dont take our pills.
The answer? Who knows, but if you still have the choice as to wether or not to take the pills, have the vaccinations, drink the cola with Aspartame, then self-regulate. Excersise your right to choose and then excersise your right to get rid of the people that are forcing the choices on you in the first place.
The Romans had a phrase for the distraction of the masses back in the day: " Bread and circuses". Give the people enough food and free entertainment and they wont care whats happening in the big pcture.

KHYRON

Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:17 AM

Quote:
I really can't see how indoctrination and behavior modification via science and medicine is any improvement for the human race over indoctrination via religion.

It's important to distinguish between science and a corporation that exploits scientific results for profit.

It's also important to distinguish between the motives of religion and science. Religion wants to indoctrinate people (whether their reasons for doing so are well-meaning or not is irrelevant), whereas science wants to explore and understand the world around us. It has no vested interest in indoctrinating anybody - maybe in enlightening people by telling them how the world works, but this isn't indoctrination. The attempts at indoctrination via science and medicine happens via third parties (corporations, government, etc.).

Your comment should be:

"I really can't see how indoctrination and behavior modification via institutions (often with capitalist motives; which use results from science and medicine) is any improvement for the human race over indoctrination via religion."

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:39 AM

Thanks for the input PR. Don't see you venturing often this way. I reckon it might be because I posted it in what is now the newest Forsaken thread. You genuinely seem happy to me pretty much any time that I've had the pleasure of speaking with you. It's great that you manage to do that and keep yourself busy with things that you enjoy without having to resort to any types of drugs, wheather the pushers are blinged out and carrying handguns or are wearing labcoats and carry stethoscopes.

Personally, I find that the drug dealer who the government allows to advertize on TV is much scarier than your average bud slinger. I've never seen a warning for marajuana in my life, because it's illegal, but I know it would be a much shorter warning than any drug on the legal market, including alcahol. There is not one single recorded case of death from overdose of marajuana or mixing THC with another substance. I'm not trying to advocate marajuana here, though I admit to partaking myself. I am simply stating that it's pretty scary when you see the newest drug ads on TV telling you that the potential side effects, usually in "serious" cases, could include impotence and death...... nice. And yet, the sheeple continue to line up for their Soma and Viagrow.

Anti - As always I appreciate your input. I try to maintain a bit of moderateness myself when it comes to the conspiracy theories when I can because frankly, nobody will listen most of the time so it's not worth my effort to bring it up anymore and the more passionate I am about something, sadly, it seems that people turn their heads even faster. I agree with your opinions here completely and that story about the FDA does not suprise me in the least. If you could find a link for that and wheather it was indeed Reagan, that would be sweet.

Oldenglanddry - Geez.... Now I know my luck can't keep up here too much longer. You too! Damn straight about choice there.

Quote:
The answer? Who knows, but if you still have the choice as to wether or not to take the pills, have the vaccinations, drink the cola with Aspartame, then self-regulate.

Wonderful. SELF-REGULATE. I know that many, including myself, are not religious in here, but does that lack of faith mean that we are slaves to our desires? Do we not have free will do do what we believe is best for us? I know it's hard, but if we don't start doing it ourselves, then our collective governments WILL do it for all of us.

Khyron - I have to say that you especially suprise me. You seem to realize that there may be a problem here as far as indoctrination and forcing people to do things that they don't want or need to do... or at the very least, you never refuted this possibility.

Unfortunately you're trying to twist around the truth here a bit by saying some rhetoric I've heard in other threads and say that Science is a victim of my abuse here and is virtually faultless and blameless by nature. I must disagree with you very strongly here. Of course Science is a non living entity, completley incapable of thinking for itself or orchestrating an assault on people like the Terminator. But when it comes to defending Science from horrible and misunderstanding people like me who just revel in abusing it, you seem to conveniently forget all about how powerful Science truly is, and how you tout its undeniable power and truth when it serves your needs.

In the hands of the unscrupulous, which unfortunately usually have all of the funding which drives it, Science has been used as a weapon countless times against humanity. Ideally, you're right about Science. Guns don't kill people either, people kill people. I've had do defend a very similar battle here as well with your ability to arm yourself. I'm a firm believer in the right to bear arms. If only the rich were to have guns though while the poor were unarmed and they constantly used them to put holes in the poor, I might have to revise my stance on guns though.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't use Science, just as I don't

SHINYED

Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:06 PM

I agree with you on this.....In my day there were no pills and medicines for anti-social behavior, just a long spell in after-school detention, and then some punishment from Mom & Dad....not the worst things in the world.

I also agree with your point of the absurd statistics that get thrown around these days...like the ADHD claims....would you believe that driving in to work today I heard on the radio a Psychiatrist ( talking about the Hardaway gaffe ) say that 1 out of 3 people are Gay!!!...Can ya believe that one?

Pumping people full of drugs is the exact same thing as what the Alliance did to its' citizens on Miranda.....or similar to the drug-based social lifestyles portrayed in Fahrenheit 451.

PHOENIXROSE

Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Thanks for the input PR. Don't see you venturing often this way. I reckon it might be because I posted it in what is now the newest Forsaken thread. You genuinely seem happy to me pretty much any time that I've had the pleasure of speaking with you. It's great that you manage to do that and keep yourself busy with things that you enjoy without having to resort to any types of drugs, wheather the pushers are blinged out and carrying handguns or are wearing labcoats and carry stethoscopes.

Yeah... *looks around nervously* I don't come down here much, but sometimes I'll throw in an opinion. I just don't debate. I've read some of the debates here; I'm so not that person. But i had my response to this all written from General, so I just moved it over...
I am happy. And when I'm not happy I'm content. Barring flashes of annoyance, that's about where I am.
I have nothing against science, I don't even have anything against proper use of the proper drugs, I just don't see proper use or proper drugs anywhere in Western medicine, just the highest bidder treating people as lab rats. It bothers me more than a little. Eastern medicine seems more on the ball to me, and a lot of that can barely be called 'drugs'...
Anyway, I stand where I stand and I'm never gonna let them drug me.

*scampers out*

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

TAKEMEFLYING

Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:07 PM

I think it would be blind to say that ADHD-type medicines aren't being over-prescribed, especially to children. While there are some children (and adults) who require some medication, in conjunction with counseling and the like, most folk these days simply never learn things we used to take for granted, like self-discipline, self-control, responsibility, respect of self and others, just plain lack of expectation that *everything* should be easy and convenient at all times! And these are things that are taught by parents, caregivers, older siblings, cousins & friends, teachers and mentors - taught directly and by example, and reinforced by societal messages.

Unfortunately, things are very different now than they used to be. Life moves so very fast around us that shortcuts become very tempting, and there is a pervasive sense that hard work is no longer rewarded with the good things in life, but only by even more work. We are prime targets for the 'easy solution', whether it is a pill to keep you up, put you down, make your kid behave, make your friend happy, make your weigh drop...
We could resolve a lot of issues within ourselves and our families if we only took the time... and woke ourselves up from the "I need a big house, three cars, a plasma TV and brand new furniture every year" mode of living. Ever seen that debt commercial where this guy is going around this seemingly idyllic home & garden and saying basically "I'm in debt up to my eyebrows and can't stop; somebody help me!" through this forced grin? There it is, right there! Have one less car, appreciate the free things around you, and spend more time actually raising your kids, supporting your spouse, keeping yourself in balance.

This is not saying that these drugs don't do *any* good, but more that they can and should be prescribed to those who really do need them as part of the treatment of their condition.
The irony - at least in my life - is that while every Tom, Dick and Harry out there are getting meds to compensate for their lack of sleep/excess stress, I'm living with someone who has a medical need for anxiety reducing meds and can't get them (or the accompanying treatment). We do what we can with other coping methods like meditation, creative expression, exercise and healthy living - all the things the well-insured can't seem to take the time for, even though it would solve most of their problems.

You can't expect a government (even if it weren't in the pocket of the big corporations) to do what individuals are responsible for, pulling your own weight and helping those around you to do the same (which includes teaching and supporting those who are younger or weaker than yourself). And you can't expect a little pill to *make* you a better more balanced person - all the pill does is take the edge off so you can focus on that balance, bring it back to center.

Meh... I could go on, but I won't. *distant cheers from the room* It's a subject I'm very... worried over, lets say.

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:17 PM

dbl. must have been when I forgot that I sent it the first time!

PENGUIN

Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:21 PM

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:21 PM

Let me start out by saying that my daughter was neurocompromised at birth by a brain bleed so severe she should have died. Because of her, I've met a lot of kids who're neurocompromied in one way or another, and I'm very aware of how many "brain" things can go wrong... go wrong... go wrong... DD was at one time dx with severe ADHD. She couldn't help it - all the signals were getting scrambled from seizure acitivity. SHE was miserable. WE were miserable. But it was not volitional on her part, it was compromising her ability to pay attention for more than about ten seconds at a time, and it was WAAAAY beyond what "punishment" or "reward" could handle. We did NOT give her drugs for ADHD- we were too busy trying to control her seizures- but we can certainly understand why someone would.

I think ADHD is real, and not only that it goes back to before drug treatment. Have you ever read "The Ransom of Red Chief"? Written in 1910, it describes what happens when kidnappers take a boy who is just so full of mischevious activity that they're willing to PAY the dad to take him back.

www.online-literature.com/o_henry/1041/

And then there's Dennis the Menace. a classic description of ADHD if I ever saw one! Calvin and Hobbes is another.

In fact, the brains of children with untreated ADHD are smaller on the average than the brains of treated ADHD and neurotypical controls. Something physical is going on. It think it's easy for people who're essentially "normal" to look at someone with a brain problem and think "Why don't they just....?" The answer is Because they can't

There is a successful treatment for many cases of ADHD that is all-natural: fish and fish oil. Our brains need a far larger amount of omega-3 and iodine than most primates (and that says something about the environment in which we evolved... but that's another story). I sometimes wonder if the reason why autism and other brain problems are increasing is the gradual generational depletion of omega-3 oils since the Catholic church did away with "meatless Fridays". I remember eating fishsticks every Friday.

But you know, come to think of it, even when I was a kid they used to refer to fish as "brain food". Huh. Well, anyway...

But for other kids (and other syndromes) there is some evidence that brain disorders ARE increasing and that it is NOT due to mercury in vaccines. (According to a Dutch study, the rates of autism were stable until mercury was REMOVED from vaccines and THEN it went up)

That being said, I think doctors reach for the pill bottle too often. Take obesity as an example- it's a societal problem, caused by urban planning that requires automobile travel and makes walking impossible, games that are produced that entice children to sit for hours at a time, the breakup up the family and/or the requirement that both parents work which encourages use of fast food and the electronic babaysitter, and even safety concerns that keep kids off the streets. But it's far easier (and more profitable) to develop a weight-loss pill than to fix the underlying problems, because THEN we might actually have to change society.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

KHYRON

Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:37 PM

Unfortunately my life is pretty hectic these last few weeks and so I can only give you a short answer.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You seem to realize that there may be a problem here as far as indoctrination and forcing people to do things that they don't want or need to do... or at the very least, you never refuted this possibility.

I don't refute it because you have a very valid point. Absolutely it's a problem the way soft drugs are being forced on people, I completely agree with you about that part. It's a serious issue and I'm glad you brought it up.

My only objection was about blaming science itself.

Quote:
Unfortunately you're trying to twist around the truth here a bit by saying some rhetoric I've heard in other threads and say that Science is a victim of my abuse here and is virtually faultless and blameless by nature.

Well, yeah, I feel that science is blameless by nature, in the way that, as you said, guns don't kill people, people do. Similarly, it's not science that abuses results and findings, it's people who do it (this includes many scientists).

Quote:
But when it comes to defending Science from horrible and misunderstanding people like me who just revel in abusing it, you seem to conveniently forget all about how powerful Science truly is, and how you tout its undeniable power and truth when it serves your needs.

I don't think I ever forget how powerful science is, in fact it's its power that I think makes it worth defending in the first place. I also don't think you (specifically) revel in abusing it, I think any "abuse" on your part is the result of being misinformed, and not because you have an agenda.

To cut a long story short, I understand your concern regarding the misuse of science and I share it, I just think one should make a distinction between science and the people who use its results for sinister purposes, because otherwise one is just giving science a bad name. The way you phrased the original post sounded a bit like an attempt at making this into a science vs the rest of the world debate, but the issue here isn't science.

We already have a couple of threads discussing the rift between science and non-science and I think it'd be a shame if this became another such thread. The topic you want to discuss is important and our disagreement on the accountability of science shouldn't detract from it.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

DEEPGIRL187

Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:40 PM

*hesitantly decides to post*

I believe ADHD is a real disorder. I believe that there are children and adults that suffer greatly from it. What I don't believe is that drugs are the only answer, or that because it wasn't seen in older times, it's not real. ADHD is widely overdiagnosed, and often used as an excuse to deal with unruly kids. But ADHD does exist, and furthermore, it needs to be studied further in order to treat the disorder appropriately.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
I have nothing against science, I don't even have anything against proper use of the proper drugs, I just don't see proper use or proper drugs anywhere in Western medicine, just the highest bidder treating people as lab rats. It bothers me more than a little. Eastern medicine seems more on the ball to me, and a lot of that can barely be called 'drugs'...
Anyway, I stand where I stand and I'm never gonna let them drug me.

I’m not sure that I would go as far as to say that there are no proper use of drugs in Western medicine, in fact, I would say that scientific use of drugs to cure and treat illness is a hallmark of Western medicine and one of the things that makes it superior in many ways to other less scientifically founded practices. Most drugs when properly prescribed and administered by a physician have benefits that far outweigh their adverse effects. But drugs can have powerful and often unpredictable effects; they aren’t and should never be viewed necessarily as a perfect solution nor should they be treated without caution.

I think one attitude that has been lost by many is the concept of reverence for nature or god in the face of medicine. The more apt we become at manipulating the world around us the more certain we are that we are the masters of it, but that is a misguided notion. Drugs should be viewed with a degree of reverence that I don’t always see. The attitude seems to be that a pill will cure anything. I have a good friend who was seriously injured while doing some construction work; doctors were able to save his life and his mobility, but he suffered a great deal of pain afterwards, and as a result is now addicted to narcotic pain medication. An addiction that ended up costing him his job, his house and his family, and if you asked him now, he would tell you that a few months of pain would have been far superior.

When it comes to things like ADHD and ADD, I think we are often too quick to search for a simple solution, trusting in the power of medication to be a simple fix for our problems. In reality, I think most ADHD and ADD can be better treated with behavioral training (a little bit of discipline and some encouragement), not medication. I was diagnosed with ADHD (or whatever they called it back in my day) and dyslexia when I was young; today I have no perceptible symptoms of either, and I’m not sure that either of those diagnoses were accurate description of any kind of medical condition, but simply symptoms of being a kid. When they wanted to put me on medication, I was frantic. I viewed that, correctly, as if I was being told that I was inadequate, retarded, and abnormal. Even as a child it was horribly insulting to me and frightening, because I wasn’t sure if I would be able to convince anyone that it wasn’t true. Eventually I was able to convince my mother that she didn’t need the advice of this schools therapist’s psychobabble. But from then on out, the school viewed me as a sub-standard student. I was never challenged; I was automatically placed in “special” classes, which I had to protest every year. We’ve gotten to a point now where we want to cure people of being kids. Being a child is not a disease.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 15, 2007 4:01 PM

6string- It occurred to me that you're asking the question improperly. ADHD is a real disorder. AND it's a way to get us hooked on pills for life. Not an either/ or situation.

Many times the answer is fish oil...
www.unisa.edu.au/researcher/issue/2006January/story4.asp
www.fabresearch.org/view_item.aspx?item_id=805

Controlling sleep apnea in children (and adults) ... www.healthcare.uiowa.edu/cdd/multiple/centerlines/CL_fall_2003.pdf

And behavioral modifications and/or changes in assigned tasks.

For the FEW kids who don't respond to these benign interventions, drugs may be necessary.

DOTCOMEDYARABIA

Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:30 PM

did you see this: http://www.dotcomedy.com/laugh/

we put it up today

Joss Whedon talking about directing The Office

feel free to link to it or whatever... I'm trying to let as many people know as possible.

THATWEIRDGIRL

Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:36 PM

As someone who is ADHD, I think it is real. It is not behaviorial. It is chemical. My brain scan looks very different from a non-ADHD brain. I am not a discipline problem. I do not have a respect problem. When I am medicated, I feel normal. Still my zany self, but normal, like I can actaully succeed. When I am not on medication, I am hit and miss...more often miss. It's frustrating. It's depressing. Don't say it's all in my head (it is, but you know what I mean)...I've tried various treatments. Very specific drugs work and many drugs/treatments did not work. A modified diet does help somewhat but not as well as meds. I can't afford meds. Woot.

Do I think it's overdiagnosed? Maybe. I think it's more that it is misdiagnosed. Often the children diagnosed have behaviorial problems not ADHD. People who have it don't get diagnosed because they've created coping strategies that hide their problem. This just makes it worse. As a child, I was very good at hiding my problem. It's easy to hide in school; I was just the weird misfit. However, as an adult, the environment does not lend itself to hiding. It became impossible to get by. I had to seek medical help.

I've tried to do it on my own. I used to hate myself because I had to take medicine. It seems so strange. Why can't I just do it! I want to be able to...believe me, I wish I could live without them. It doesn't work. It's just like glasses. You need the lens to focus. The drugs help my mind focus. People that know me can tell if I'm medicated. They know. It's that obvious.

I wish I could afford the medicine I need.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
We’ve gotten to a point now where we want to cure people of being kids. Being a child is not a disease.

Yep. My dad is diagnosed as ADHD and jumps from drug to drug to 'combat' it. He says I have it too.
I forget what's not in front of me...that's why I write notes, and hold my keys in front of me before I lock the house or car door.
Everything's in degrees. Wanna give a full spectrum anti-biotic to someone with a small cold...or should we save it for the serious cases? Better for the pharmasuitical industry to give it to both.
EVERYONE has this attention def thing, EVERYONE has moments where the get distracted, or can't rightly remember stuff.
Save the meds for the serious cases.

Just my two--hey! look at that bird! Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:02 PM

I wanted to re-iterate from my previous post:

In fact, the brains of children with untreated ADHD are smaller on the average than the brains of treated ADHD and neurotypical controls. Something physical is going on. I think it's easy for people who're essentially "normal" to look at someone with a brain problem and think "Why don't they just....?" The answer is Because they can't

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think it's easy for people who're essentially "normal" to look at someone with a brain problem and think "Why don't they just....?" The answer is Because they can't

That's what I used to tell my teachers when they asked me why I didn't "WANT" to remember my homework. Today I'd get drugs for that.

My point is that there's a line where on one side it's a simple life irritation as opposed to a full-blown and physically diagnosable brain problem on the other. Brain problems should be taken seriously and treated; forgetting homework and such should not be in the purview of physicians and therapists.

Just my- Oh look! Another bird! Chrisisall

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I have an even harder time believing this is true than I do that we all need mandatory vaccinations for whatever the disease of the day is. I've even seen advertisements on TV saying that 1 out of every 166 kids born has autism. AUTISM!!!!!

1 out of 166 have Autism!

Autism covers a very large swath of disorders, many of which are relatively mild. When you say Autism you are probably thinking of the mute, windowlicking kind of Autism, but milder forms (like Asperger's) are quite common.

Quote:
WTF? Man.... we keep letting science dictate our lives, especially considering they're always changing their minds anyways, we're all going to be on pills to modify our behavior from birth.

Other people have already mentioned this but I want to support it. Science and scientists are not at fault for this, corporations and capitalism are. Scientists are given a problem and they look for a solution, corporations want to make money off of the research that scientists do, the only way that drug companies can do that is by convincing people that they need the drugs that have just been developed. It is the same thing as when developers try to convince us that we really need a 10000 square foot house or car companies insist that a Navigator will make us happier.

As for your comment about changing their minds, you have used this before and it is still an inappropriate arguement, when new research is done or new effects discovered scientists alter their concliusions, it's the basis of science. If all scientists stayed the course no matter what new evidence came up we would still think that heavier-than-air flight was impossible.

Quote:
How about you tell me, once and for all, if milk from a cow is good for me or not before you start giving my baby anti-autism treatments... thanks.

The thing is that some food have detrimental effects, the question of whether they are still preferable depends on whether or not the detrimental effects are outweighed by the beneficial, opinions on this will vary.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that these kids are just the ones who would have been leaders of their smaller communities in days long gone.

ADHD is vastly overdiagnosed, but if the other option is to let my kids grow up to be political leaders (politicians), then I'm not so sure they aren't better off medicated

Quote:
who needs anybody that's got half a brain and a boatload of energy behind it anyhow?

The drug companies so that they can make new drugs?

Quote:
Wouldn't you rather just watch American Idol on your Prozac and not think about anything important at all?

I'll take the Prozac but I'll pass on American Idol thanks.

Quote:
I really can't see how indoctrination and behavior modification via science and medicine is any improvement for the human race over indoctrination via religion.

Perhaps because religion doesn't help sick people? Or maybe because religion pushes people to fanaticism, while drugs make them docile? Or maybe because science answers questions while religion avoids them?

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:00 PM

I agree, and ...

what was I saying?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

KHYRON

Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:05 PM

Nice post, Fred.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

RUE

Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:17 PM

MY ADHD went untreated until way past middle age. Except for a self-perception as a screw-up, I had enough brain power, and/or my ADHD wasn't bad enough, and/or my life situation was forgiving enough, that I muddled on through. But there were many times I literally could not read through a single sentence without getting derailed.

Then life got more demanding and I couldn't afford to spend the extra hours at work trying to get things done.

ADHD is real. If I could have 'made' it go away by willpower, I would have, and spared my self a world of hurt.

THATWEIRDGIRL

Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
1 out of 166 have Autism!

As someone else has mentioned, Autism includes many things. There are mild and severe cases. Until you've worked with these children, which I have, you have no idea the range and complexitites you can experience.

Quote:
They are the most intelligent and outside of the box thinkers mankind has to offer...

Why thank you.

Quote:
Aren't intelligent freethinkers boring anyhow with all their talk about things that can make your head hurt? Wouldn't you rather just watch American Idol on your Prozac and not think about anything important at all?

Not one person would ever call me boring. That sounds like an awful way to live...sedated on Prozac and watching reality tv. Ick. I'd rather be institutionalized than live like that.

Quote:
I really can't see how indoctrination and behavior modification via science and medicine is any improvement for the human race over indoctrination via religion.

Speaking as a religious person...How about all the war and death overzealous religions have caused?

I'm stepping outside my comfort zone here. You know I'm not up to the sparring standards in Real World discussions.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

STARRBABY

Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:21 PM

Must . .. .resist . . .urge . . . to post. Awww screw it. I'm sickof lurking for the last year. I used to be very mouthy on here, but haven't had time to be since I bcame a slave ..I mean mother.

Anyway, this is a very important issue to me. I have seen both sides of the coin, too.

I personally know an 11-year old with horrid grades that got straight A's after taking medication.

I also am married to someone who has ADHD before everyone else did. He was just told to sit down, shut up, and focus. His teacher would put a timer on his desk to make him do his work.

Now days, that teacher would have gotten in trouble, but my husband got his work done. He also got through childhood without medication - he is now a 6 figure computer geek.

We all have little stories - my point is, differnt things work for differnt people.

I could have just typed that last scentece, couldn't I. Would have saved me a buttload of time.

FREDGIBLET

Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
it's pretty scary when you see the newest drug ads on TV telling you that the potential side effects, usually in "serious" cases, could include impotence and death...... nice.

Well, if their doctor is forward with the potential side effects then it's their decision isn't it? If the benefit outweighs the risk...

Quote:
Unfortunately you're trying to twist around the truth here a bit by saying some rhetoric I've heard in other threads and say that Science is a victim of my abuse here and is virtually faultless and blameless by nature. I must disagree with you very strongly here. Of course Science is a non living entity, completley incapable of thinking for itself or orchestrating an assault on people like the Terminator.

Then why do you capitalize it? Your term "Science" seems to refer to something different from science as it is generally understood. You seem to believe that "Science" has the goal of enslaving mankind, science on the other hand wants to figure out how to fix problems. This "Science" you keep refering to seems to be exactly the monolithic, evil entity that you are saying it isn't here.

Quote:
In the hands of the unscrupulous, which unfortunately usually have all of the funding which drives it, Science has been used as a weapon countless times against humanity.

And it has been used to help humanity much more often. You touched on the truth here, the problem is not science, the problem is people.

Quote:
I'm not saying that we shouldn't use Science

That seems to be the gist of every post you have made on the topic though.

Quote:
Who pays for it when a "wonderdrug" kills somebody? How many people were sent to jail when High School football players were dying from dehydration from using drugs bought at GNC that the FDA refuses to test? Not one damn person. How about Fen Fen for the weight loss? None.

Take at your own risk, personal responsibility. If I sell motor oil and someone drinks it am I to blame? If you want everything sold in "health" stores to be tested by the FDA then you'd better be ready for the tax hike to pay for it. Additionally, I'm fairly certain that lawsuits were filed and won in those cases.

Quote:
I have no control how Science is used around me particularly if there will be laws in the the future saying that I MUST be innoculated. Where does that stop?

This is politics that you are worried about not science. Additionally mandatory innoculations are what allowed us to eliminate Polio, Smallpox and the like, you may not like the idea, but if anyone is allowed to opt out of an eradication effort then the disease will continue to hang around. Plus, if you don't get vaccinated then when you get sick MY health care prices go up, I have to deal with a more crowded hospital, I have to get exposed to more virulent strains of disease in the hospitals, and I have to face the possibility that you will breed drug-resistant strains of bacteria.

Quote:
How long until there are laws saying we all need to be taking pills because Science determined that we are all more productive, happy and less inclined to strangle each other on them?

Once again, this is politics, not science. Science makes the drugs because there is a demand for happy pills, POLITICS decides to make them mandatory.

Quote:
Just turn on your TV at any time of day and watch the new ads for the happy pills. They're on every channel at any time of day. They're looking for that Soma and they won't stop until they find it.

Of course, you live in capitalist society. Drug companies see money to made in the happy pill industry, people want them and want them bad, so the companies make them.

Quote:
then I suppose it is not directly Science that is causing the indoctrination.

You've almost got it here...

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There is no question that medicine has a direct role, in that it is the medicine itself which modifies people's behavior.

Ooooooo, you lost it.

FREDGIBLET

Friday, February 16, 2007 1:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
I'm stepping outside my comfort zone here. You know I'm not up to the sparring standards in Real World discussions.

You seem to be doing fine so far, we can use more combatants here

Quote:
---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

Took almost a week for me.

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, February 16, 2007 3:34 AM

6ix,

1. There is a difference between science and technology.

2. There is a difference between science and scientists.

3. ADHD is real (I've seen it with my own eyes), but is often misdiagnosed and therefore overdiagnosed. Just how often this misdiagnosis takes place is subject to debate, but very few people (mostly scientologists it seems) would deny that there aren't SOME people who genuinely suffer from this disorder.

4. The autism epidemic is real. The definition of autism has expanded, and many people who have autism spectrum disorder are highly functional. But the number of severely dysfunctional children and adults with autism itself has skyrocketed. This is an undisputed fact.

5. We don't know what is causing the increase in cases of ADHD and autism. So many changes have occurred in our society in the last few decades. More hospital births, more caesarians, more vaccines, more TV, more electromagnetic pollution, more air pollution, more water pollution, more absentee parents, more divorces, more meds, more lawsuits, more people, more carbon dioxide, more government corruption, more autoimmune diseases, more openness to homosexuality, more openness to racial and gender equality, more Head Start centers, etc.

6. We don't know what is the safest and most effective way to improve the functioning of people who suffer from these disorders. Chances are, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Parents probably have to experiment with what works best, be it diet, occupational therapy, psychotherapy, laissez-faire, acupuncture, homeopathy, vitamins, or meds.

7. There are unscrupulous people in all levels of society who take advantage of science, technology, parental desperation, and teacher frustration, to push products and ideology that serves their best interests more than those of the children in question.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

RUE

Friday, February 16, 2007 4:43 AM

More chemicals overall. There are hundreds of thousands of chemicals that didn't exist before WWII. (Back in the not so far past when everything was 'organic'.) Who knows what the witches brew is doing?

ANTIMASON

Friday, February 16, 2007 7:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Anti - If you could find a link for that and wheather it was indeed Reagan, that would be sweet.

this first link is a local news network covering aspartame, the second is a clip from a documentary which expands on Rumsfelds relationship in it all

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, February 16, 2007 1:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yep. My dad is diagnosed as ADHD and jumps from drug to drug to 'combat' it. He says I have it too.
I forget what's not in front of me...that's why I write notes, and hold my keys in front of me before I lock the house or car door.
Everything's in degrees. Wanna give a full spectrum anti-biotic to someone with a small cold...or should we save it for the serious cases? Better for the pharmasuitical industry to give it to both.
EVERYONE has this attention def thing, EVERYONE has moments where the get distracted, or can't rightly remember stuff.
Save the meds for the serious cases.

I’ve never been convinced that ADHD is real; I suppose that there could be such a disease, but I’ll have to base that squarely on the benefit of the doubt, which after my experience with therapists, I’m not keen to give out too generously.

When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease; they are traits that everyone shares, just like a sense of humor, courage or shyness. Hell, these are traits that some people try to foster. I have no doubt that these traits vary in severity from person to person in some more-or-less random distribution, just like every other trait, and it’s entirely possible and reasonable to expect that in a large enough sample some people may end up with a large dose of these traits and fewer of the other traits that they may prefer. And I can see how some people who are particularly hyper, impulsive or have short attention spans may find employment or education in certain fields difficult, but I’m not prepared to say that this is a psychological illness, because to some degree that describes half the people I know, including myself sometimes, and all the teenagers. What about people with no sense of humor? I bet that if you did a study of people with no sense of humor, you would discover that their brains differed slightly from those who did have a sense of humor. Not many of us would accept that being dull is a disease. Our behavior, however benign, is in some way connected with our brains. Our brains also reflect innate subconscious constructs that we may not even be aware of. I recently heard that every male brain (I’m assuming heterosexual) reflects contempt for images of naked men. Does that mean that if you don’t display an attitude of homophobia, you’re sick or abnormal? There are just seems to be so many perils with trying to discreetly label common everyday traits as symptoms some kind of psychological illness.

The problem here is that the world is changing and our lives are no longer dependent on scraping furrows in the dirt or running people throw in the King’s army. More and more our lives are dependent on being highly knowledgeable about the world around us. We don’t live in a world were only 5% of the population reads or understands the latest theories in turning lead into gold. The average person today learns more from books and formal education before they graduate from High School then most people learned in their lifetime only a couple hundred years ago. And what can you do with a high school education? Not much. If you want the good jobs you’ve got to go to college, which further emphasize the burden. The modern lifestyle has begun to place an enormous strain on society’s ability to sit still, and I wonder that this is all ADHD is.

It wasn’t too long ago that people with an aptitude for science and mathematics were viewed with contempt by popular culture. They were nerds and geeks. Why? Because their own particularly personality allowed them to sit and pay attention more comfortably then the average person? Perhaps they suffered from DDD (Distraction Deficient Disorder). Today nerds are almost celebrated, because society has figured that that these guys are ones making all the money in a world where technology has replaced agriculture. Now everyone wants in on it, but not everyone is suited to be a nerd.

Nihil est incertiu

RUE

Friday, February 16, 2007 1:45 PM

There's more to ADD/ADHD than sitting still. When the Ritalin's kicked in I can think from the beginning of one thought to the next, listen to the end of a sentence, or read to the end of a sentence in less than 10 tries. That doesn't normally require a lot of sitting, just keeping one thought in place for more than 2 seconds.

And there are usually other things that go along with ADD/ADHD, in my case visual processing problems (tho on the plus side subliminal imaging will never work on me).

This kind of thing isn't compatible with life where most people survived as part of a group and every life was full of opportunities to live or die.

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 16, 2007 2:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
There's more to ADD/ADHD than sitting still. When the Ritalin's kicked in I can think from the beginning of one thought to the next, listen to the end of a sentence, or read to the end of a sentence in less than 10 tries.

In my father's case, I remember as a child wondering why he couldn't watch a whole TV show from beginning to end. He channel surfed before the phrase was coined. But he went to school and got his degree with ADHD so I'm assuming it was a mild form. He says he focuses better with ritalin...cool. It's just he's always experimenting with doses, and other meds from Canada, as if he'll somehow reach this perfect awareness, like no amount of focus is good enough now. I think he's a Focus addict! Do you think he needs an intervention? Like in Clockwork Orange- sit him down with no meds and MAKE him watch ALL seven seasons of Buffy, after which there'd be a comprehension test?

Tough Attention Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 16, 2007 3:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I bet that if you did a study of people with no sense of humor, you would discover that their brains differed slightly from those who did have a sense of humor. Not many of us would accept that being dull is a disease.

Well I would. Observe Hero; he's a closet Dullard, he tries SO hard to be funny...he's in denial and need help.

Quote:
I recently heard that every male brain (I’m assuming heterosexual) reflects contempt for images of naked men. Does that mean that if you don’t display an attitude of homophobia, you’re sick or abnormal? There are just seems to be so many perils with trying to discreetly label common everyday traits as symptoms some kind of psychological illness.

See, when you go to the funny place, you're both subtle and effective...no DSH there (Dull Sense of Humour).

Okay, seriously, like Signy says, the brains of ADHD peeps measure smaller, and my dad says the purpose of the prescribed drugs is neurogenisis. So I can see that it's an actual disease in some. In the past, these individuals might have made bad farmers (imagine planting row after row of crops all day long with ADD?), but good court jesters (imagine Robin Williams making the King laugh).

And that's- OH CRAP!!! MY FRIES ARE BURNING!!! Chrisisall, not on ritalin

CANTTAKESKY

Friday, February 16, 2007 5:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease

Well, that is true. Having one or two "symptoms" or having all the "symptoms" mildly doesn't get you diagnosed with the disorder. And if it does, then there is some serious misdiagnosis going on, which does happen all too often unfortunately.

But there are people who have these "symptoms" or traits, if you will, to the extent that it causes an inability to function productively and much subjective suffering. Good diagnosticians take the whole picture into account, including social dynamics, current functioning vs. current potential, other possible diagnoses/disorders, and personal well-being.

If a child has an IQ of 145, but is getting D's and F's because she refuses to sit still or be quiet in class long enough to do any work or complete tests (despite the most rigorous and consistent discipline), runs around her classroom and her desk at will, disrupts other children, doesn't hear teachers, etc., then something is wrong. Slapping a Dx and shoving Ritalin down her throat is all too often a lazy solution. But suggesting the wrong solution doesn't dismiss the fact that something isn't working for this girl like for other children.

If I were a diagnostician, I would rule out other disorders such as Sensory Processing Disorder or Central Auditory Processing Disorder. I'd investigate family dynamics and lifestyle to see if something else might be contributing to her behavioral problems. I'd look at classroom dynamics for the same thing. I'd look at how she was able to concentrate well enough for the IQ test, and investigate the possibility that these problems might be caused by intellectual understimulation. I would interview her to see how happy she is with various aspects of her life.

It could be that the child actually has SPD, and not ADHD, coupled with a high maintenance personality that needs a lot of emotional reassurance. Maybe the parents don't give her as much attention as she needs and placate her with too much junk food and candy and toys. Maybe she craves stronger intellectual challenges and is running around because she is literally bored out of her mind.

It could be the lasting solution in this case is to take her out of school and homeschool, allowing her to work at her own intellectual level. Occupational therapy can help resolve some sensory processing problems, and help the parents be aware of her sensory needs. Her parents could schedule quality time to give her the emotional attention she craves. Eliminating excess sugar and junk food from her diet could mitigate some of that uncontrolled energy.

Making an accurate diagnosis is a very tedious and involved process to which some school psychologists are not willing or able to commit. Finding a solution that truly meets the child's needs is a very tedious and involved process to which some parents are not willing or able to commit. And the child gets mislabeled and mistreated so everyone else can have an easier life.

But denying her "ADHD" and treating the child like she doesn't have a problem isn't the answer either. Dismissing her dysfunction with platitudes like a "child will be a child" or "she'll grow out of it" is just as much a disservice to her as putting her on Ritalin. It is also an easy way out, without having to do any work.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

--------------
Nullius in verba. (Take nobody's word.)

FREDGIBLET

Friday, February 16, 2007 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease; they are traits that everyone shares, just like a sense of humor, courage or shyness. Hell, these are traits that some people try to foster.

Certainly, but when they are outside the human norm then it is a disorder, just like diabetes or giantism, you just can't see it as easily. So then the question is it causing problems? If yes then does the detriment of the medication outweigh the benefit?

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, February 16, 2007 7:30 PM

*Romulan Lurking Mode:Off*

Aw hell, and here I was gonna go back to lurking cause of the extremely polarized hostility here and y'all had to go and get all reasonable and rational on me.

And now TWG shows up, who's basically a pavlovian trigger for random acts of kindness, not to mention having the same effect on grumpiness that sunlight has on vampires.

Sooo, first things first, in reference to altered brain development, not just accidents of birth, but also extreme trauma and repeated neglect can alter not just the chemical pathways, but even it's physical structure.
http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERIALS/neuros~1.asp

There's more than one flavor of altered devlopment however, so there is no one size fits all solution - that's where it's between your doc, your therapist and your family and not one bit of the durned governments business.

Just imagine trying to live a normal life with most of your emotions so muted you can't figure out what they are, and having to actually work at it very hard to form any kind of attachment to another person, diminished capacity sucks horribly, and all the worse because it is invisible or often percieved as a strength...

Anyhows, got two things for ya TWG.
http://itc.gsu.edu/academymodules/a304/support/xpages/a304b0_20600.htm
l
Mnemonic Enhancement is a useful thing versus attention span issues, and while it doesn't always work, being able to focus and distill a thought or concept and then *pin* it to an object relies on memory rather than attention span, and sight-recognition trigger can be useful for keeping track of things.

The hard part is getting the thought focused and distilled quick before you lose it, pinning it to the item is a seperate skill that takes practice and seemingly some folk never master it.

Still, it could be useful - I know of two people who use this technique with refrigerator magnets and one who uses a PDA with a symbol keyboard, so maybe you'll find some use of it.

Second thing...
http://www.seelecttea.com/product_info.php?products_id=43

http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/PrintablePages/herbMonograph/0,11475,4093
,00.html

This stuff's an old folk remedy for rowdy children and PMS miseries, Catnip is a mild calmative with little or no side effects outside of rare cases of slightly increased sex drive.

Unless of course you chug a whole bag of it like a college fratboy trying to impress the masses, then you might get a little ill

A more recent common use of it is to mediate symptoms of PTSD, slowing down the chemical escalation into fight/freeze/flight mode long enough to think it over and try to chill out, rather than going straight to the freakage.

If it works for ya, try growing your own, just don't carry it around with you in a baggie, boy oh boy THAT was an interesting incident with the cops indeed.... i'm sure you can imagine.

Anyhows, there's yer TWG-pavlovian-reaction act of kindness for the day, and i'm gonna go lurk for a while some more...

-F
*Romulan Lurking Mode:On*

SIGNYM

Friday, February 16, 2007 8:07 PM

I still wonder if it isn't related to lack of omega-3. Since the body can't make it and the only source is food, and it makes up a huge part of the brain dry-weight, if you don't get in in your food you inevitably short the brain.

As the fetus develops it draws omega-3 from the mom's bloodstream (which is moblized fomr her brain if she doens't get enough in her diet). Over generations the store of omega-3 gets smaller and smaller. Not that this is the ONLY factor, but it's certainly worth looking into.
----------------------
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Children of mothers who ate more fish and other seafood while pregnant are smarter and have better developmental skills than kids of women who ate less or none, researchers said on Thursday in findings they called surprising.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070215/hl_nm/seafood_pregnancy_dc;_ylt=Av
sv98oil16bBa04QveSs5fMWM0F

---------------------------------
Fish- they don't call ir "brain food" for nuthin'!

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 16, 2007 8:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Children of mothers who ate more fish and other seafood while pregnant are smarter and have better developmental skills than kids of women who ate less or none, researchers said on Thursday in findings they called surprising.

Did you check the source Signy? It seems fishy.

*They don't call me "Easy Joke Chrisisall" for nuthin'

*

I read that consuming fish oils can take care of very mild ADHD....

The Chrisisall from Atlantis

FREDGIBLET

Friday, February 16, 2007 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Aw hell, and here I was gonna go back to lurking cause of the extremely polarized hostility here and y'all had to go and get all reasonable and rational on me.

Well we can go back to be irrational and hostile if you want us to

, I think if you wait for a few minutes...

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, February 16, 2007 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
When you consider the symptoms: impulsivity, inattention and hyperactivity – these are not necessarily symptoms of any disease; they are traits that everyone shares, just like a sense of humor, courage or shyness. Hell, these are traits that some people try to foster.

Certainly, but when they are outside the human norm then it is a disorder, just like diabetes or giantism, you just can't see it as easily. So then the question is it causing problems? If yes then does the detriment of the medication outweigh the benefit?

I don’t want to appear insensitive to other people’s problems. I realize that a lot people take this very seriously, and I’m not necessarily saying that it’s not a serious thing. What I’m saying is it doesn’t appear to be something that rises to the level of a disease. Some people are assholes, and that kind of thing can seriously impair a person’s ability to function, both socially and at work. My cousin recently got fired essentially for being an asshole. But assholism is not a disease; I would consider it a serious problem, but it’s not a disease. And I’m not saying or implying in any way that people diagnosed with ADHD are assholes, I’m simply pointing out that extreme personality traits do not a disease make. I also realize that the experts, perhaps most or all of them, disagree with me; although at least one expert on the subject that I know of is an idiot. You’ll have to take what I say on this matter with a grain of salt, because I’m not an expert, I have my experiences and this is the impression that I have. That’s all.

I think Signym point of nutritional deficiencies being a culprit is a salient one. Poor nutrition plays a big roll in most people’s personality, far more so then most people realize, I think. For instance, dehydration is a common cause of chronic headaches that can lead people to be very irritable. Just drinking more water in a day can make you a nicer and more productive person.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:34 AM

I'm not in the mood, nor do I have the time to rehash the science good/bad debate here. I think we're very close to agreement about a lot of that but there are some fundamental differences in our views that aren't going to change so I'm opting not to split those hairs with you all. This is a dead end, and I'm not going to take the bait.

For now, I'll just ask you if you think that PAX from Serenety is any good indication of where we're heading. Are we, as human beings who aren't known for our good judgement, bound to find ourselves in a PAX/AI/Terminator 2/Matrix type future, even though we have all of the warnings out there already about being responsible with our use of science? People want to take away gun ownership rights because there are a few careless and unscrupulous people who do wrong with them. I think if anything we've agreed that science is a gun. Science is a very powerful thing that can be used to help and protect the human race, prolong life, and raise the quality of life for all if in the right hands and used for good, but a double edged sword which so often in our lifetimes has been responsible for cancer, birth defects and holocausts. Sadly, the people who fund and, in essence, own science so often tend to be the latter. I'm not saying we need to "take science away", but considering how powerful it is, I would feel safer if I knew somebody I trusted more than your governments or mine were the ones who ran it.

The warnings I mentioned above, of course, consist not only of the great sci fi novels we've all read or blockbuster Hollywood movies, but warnings from thousands of years ago such as Revelations which said that we would all live in a one world government (The UN) and all listen to one leader who will be able to communicate with every person on the planet (wireless, satellite, computers), and we'll all be unable to work/eat without the mark of the beast (cashless, credit-based society anyone?). I can't say for sure because I've never read about it, but I would imagine that Christianity is not the only religion with such a grim outlook on the future.

Again, I reiterate, I am not a religious man. I am, however, pretty well read in things that interest me and the Bible's predictions of the future in Revelations enthrall me. I can't seem to get my head around some of the undeniable coincidences when compared to our current state of affairs. Anyone who actually reads any of my posts knows that I am not a believer in coincidence, so not being a religious man either I find myself in quite a conundrum.

I believe the stage is set. I think we're too smart for our own good. IMHO we have far too much power with far too little knowledge and common sense and foresight to back it up. I'll even give you that it wasn't the scientist's intent in his/her heart to create the devices which will enslave/destroy us, but as my Gram says, the path to hell was paved with good intentions.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CITIZEN

Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Some people are assholes, and that kind of thing can seriously impair a person’s ability to function, both socially and at work. My cousin recently got fired essentially for being an asshole. But assholism is not a disease; I would consider it a serious problem, but it’s not a disease.

Sometimes it is. Narsassistic Personality Disorder essentially means someone acts like an arsehole but is nonetheless a disease, or disorder, either way.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

FREDGIBLET

Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm not in the mood, nor do I have the time to rehash the science good/bad debate here. I think we're very close to agreement about a lot of that but there are some fundamental differences in our views that aren't going to change so I'm opting not to split those hairs with you all. This is a dead end, and I'm not going to take the bait.

So instead of backing up an indefensible position you are just going to dodge the arguement? Alright works for me.

Quote:
For now, I'll just ask you if you think that PAX from Serenety is any good indication of where we're heading.

Not in our lifetimes, probably not in our childrens or grandchildrens. Honestly I think by the time we get to that stage we will have already proven Einstein right "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Quote:
Are we, as human beings who aren't known for our good judgement, bound to find ourselves in a PAX/AI/Terminator 2/Matrix type future, even though we have all of the warnings out there already about being responsible with our use of science?

Yes, no matter what we do to "Science" we will find a way to self destruct, it's in our nature.

Quote:
People want to take away gun ownership rights because there are a few careless and unscrupulous people who do wrong with them. I think if anything we've agreed that science is a gun.

No, guns exist for only one purpose, shooting things. There is legitimate purposes for shooting things, but all to often people use guns for non-legitimate purposes. OTOH science has a vast array of uses, most of which are incapable of harming anyone even accidentally. As a side note, I am pro-gun control, but anti-gun-ban, I think that a society void of weaons is just asking for trouble, but at the same time heavy machine guns shouldn't be sold on street corners.

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Science is a very powerful thing that can be used to help and protect the human race, prolong life, and raise the quality of life for all if in the right hands and used for good, but a double edged sword which so often in our lifetimes has been responsible for cancer, birth defects

True, but if you want to talk numbers... Science has done far more good than bad in the cancer and birth defect areas, more people get cancer now than before because they live long enough. Cancer is inevitable, it's just a question of if you live lng enough to get it. As for birth defects science can be used to determine what is causing the birth defects and correct it.

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and holocausts.

???????????? I say again ??????????? what the hell are you talking about?

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Sadly, the people who fund and, in essence, own science so often tend to be the latter.

BS, the vast majority of science is beneficial to mankind. I'd like to see you prove this.

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I'm not saying we need to "take science away"

Maybe not explicitally but you are constantly on the verge of saying it.

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but considering how powerful it is, I would feel safer if I knew somebody I trusted more than your governments or mine were the ones who ran it.

Like who? This is a people problem not a science problem, power corrupts so whoever we put in charge will likely end up acting against your wishes. Besides that huge swaths of scientific research are in the hands of universities, and corporations instead of the government.

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but warnings from thousands of years ago such as Revelations which said that we would all live in a one world government (The UN) and all listen to one leader who will be able to communicate with every person on the planet (wireless, satellite, computers), and we'll all be unable to work/eat without the mark of the beast (cashless, credit-based society anyone?).

I fail to see what this has to do with science. The one world government thing is political and social in nature, not scientific. As for communication, if the other option

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:59 AM

I'm through arguing with you Fred. You are a bullheaded idiot. You miss my points entirely. You are quite a boring person, and a broken record to boot.

I think I'd have more luck getting through that tunnel-visioned head of yours if I stuck to 2 syllable words and only one thought per post.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

THATWEIRDGIRL

Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And now TWG shows up, who's basically a pavlovian trigger for random acts of kindness, not to mention having the same effect on grumpiness that sunlight has on vampires.

Well, that brightened the day for me.

Thank you, all of you, for the links and references. I'm always up for trying modifications in diet and habit. There are things I do that help. For instance, I keep a calendar...and it's always beeping at me. oi. Meds can get expensive.

That is an interesting idea about fish. I try to get as much omega3 as I can. I love fish and seafood. In fact, I eat a fairly balanced diet.

ADHD can be debilitating in some people. It is also a disorder that is often accompanied by something else. Comorbidity can cause misdiagnosis or poor treatment. For instance, if someone suffers from depression, treat that first and then treat the ADHD. Some disorders can look like ADHD early in diagnosis: Conduct Disorder, OCD, Bipolar and drug addiction just to name a few. Obviously treating an addict like she has ADHD won't help. However, a lot ADHD are addicts of some kind. They constantly try to find something to self medicate...but once again, you must treat the addict before you can treat the ADHD.

I guess Sixstring really just wants to know if we're overmedicating as a society. Perhaps. I don't know. Some doctors give out too much, some not enough. Do I think this will lead to a PAX event? No. Why? Because as much as I want to function like a normal human being, I want to be me. I want to keep my unique personality and outlook on life. I think that is true for most people. Call me an idealist, but I like to believe people will stand up for themselves and each other.

*cue new debate about the oppression of societies worldwide...

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

FREDGIBLET

Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I'm through arguing with you Fred. You are a bullheaded idiot.

Likewise.

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You miss my points entirely.

Try explaining them then. What exactly is your point?

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and a broken record to boot.

I keep repeating myself because you keep repeating yourself, if you throw out a new argument, or bring some proof that science is really as bad as you say it is then I will not have to repeat myself. But all you do is say "science is bad" and throw out a bunch of things that can't be attributed to science, or are incorrect.

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I think I'd have more luck getting through that tunnel-visioned head of yours if I stuck to 2 syllable words and only one thought per post.

Actually I have one of the most extensive vocabularies of anyone I know (especially in my age group), and almost everyone who knows me personally thinks I'm very smart. I've spent many a night in extensive discussions with my friends about philosopy, governemnt, science, religion and the like, frequently in one discussion.

The issue at hand is that you are either unable or unwilling to articulate your points, and when I call you out on something that is incorrect like when you blame science for social or political problems you just shut down. Try giving me facts instead of unsubstantiated opinions and clearly articulating your points and we will see where things go.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:46 AM

There is no possible way to win an arguement with you because you have the mighty infallible Science backing you. There is absolutely nothing that I can do to disrupt your love affair with Science and you will defend her to your death. I see no reason to take this conversation any further.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FREDGIBLET

Saturday, February 17, 2007 4:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
There is no possible way to win an arguement with you because you have the mighty infallible Science backing you.

Sure there is, give me proof, don't just make a statement that is incorrect or makes no sense and expect me to take your opinion as gospel. For instance you said that science was the cause of holocausts, show me one example of a holocaust caused by science, you say that most scientific research is controlled by people who want to use it for unscrupulous purposes, prove it, don't just say it.

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There is absolutely nothing that I can do to disrupt your love affair with Science and you will defend her to your death.

If you bring up the medical experiments done by the Nazi's in WW2 I won't defend them, if you want me to condemn the forced use of untested drugs on unwilling subjects then I will agree. If you want me to say that science is the cause of all the worlds ills then you don't stand a chance, if you want me to say that nothing should ever stand in the way of scientific progress then you are going to have a tough time. The problem is that you are making sweeping generalizations based on rare instances and expecting me to jump to your side without evidence, without logic, and without question.

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I see no reason to take this conversation any further.

Doesn't bother me any. But just so you know that won't stop me from responding to your posts.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, February 17, 2007 5:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Sure there is, give me proof, don't just make a statement that is incorrect or makes no sense and expect me to take your opinion as gospel. For instance you said that science was the cause of holocausts, show me one example of a holocaust caused by science.....

As far as I'm concerned, I haven't said anything that is incorrect. You have either misinterpreted what I said, or because of your unwavering devotion to the 100% validiity of all things science, you will never agree with anything that I have to say.

Ask the Japanese about a holocaust that could not have happened without science. But of course you're going to argue that this was politics or human nature, so I know I already lost this arguement.

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...you say that most scientific research is controlled by people who want to use it for unscrupulous purposes, prove it, don't just say it.

This entire post about the overuse and overprescription of behavioral modifying medication and how it is just an infantile form of the PAX on Serenity I think is a very good start, but for the same reasons as above, you're going to argue me on this one too.... so what's the point?

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If you bring up the medical experiments done by the Nazi's in WW2 I won't defend them, if you want me to condemn the forced use of untested drugs on unwilling subjects then I will agree. If you want me to say that science is the cause of all the worlds ills then you don't stand a chance, if you want me to say that nothing should ever stand in the way of scientific progress then you are going to have a tough time. The problem is that you are making sweeping generalizations based on rare instances and expecting me to jump to your side without evidence, without logic, and without question.

Well of course you won't defend that. Even science won't defend what the Nazi's did. I'm just suprised that you brought this up at all, let alone that you didn't just blame the Nazi's. I myself wouldn't have brought this up first, because bringing up Nazi's in any argument to make a point, as it's been pointed out to me in here before, is simply a way of losing another arguement. Now that you mention it though....

I never once said that Science was the root of all of man's ills, not once. I've also conceded that inherently science isn't bad, it is the men behind it that are. I've even said that there is a lot of good that has come from science. I'm a big fan of antiseptics, for example. I'm not even saying that anything should stand in the way of science, such as the proposals from Bush against Stem Cell research. I do, however, expect the people behind scientific discoveries to be sane and use these things for the good of mankind, and not the enslavement of mankind. I just want some accountability, which is in short supply it seems.

I have no problem with you responding to my posts, if you cease from twisting my words around to make a point. Like I've said before, I do believe that generally we agree on a lot, but because there are a few things about science that I mention that you don't like, you bastardize everything I say to prove your point.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FREDGIBLET

Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
As far as I'm concerned, I haven't said anything that is incorrect.

This seems to be the root of the problem, you make a statement of questionable validity (such as the majority of science being funded by people who intend to use it for unscrupulous purposes) and then you refuse to provide evidence and expect me to accept it because you said it.

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You have either misinterpreted what I said

Point out what I misinterpreted and correct me then, clearly articulate your point and I will respond to it correctly.

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or because of your unwavering devotion to the 100% validiity of all things science, you will never agree with anything that I have to say.

I have a devotion to factual arguement instead of opinion stated as fact, you consistantly state your opinion without any supporting evidence and then get pissed when I call you on it.

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Ask the Japanese about a holocaust that could not have happened without science.

You kind of have a point here, but you are forgetting something, if we hadn't used the bomb we would have had to invade mainland Japan, that would have resulted in much more casualties (on both sides) than the bombs did. The atomic bombings were certainly horrific, but they were actually not much more effective (speaking from a population and material loss standpoint) than the firebombings of Dresden or Tokyo before. The major difference is that the atomic bomb was psychologically more effective because at the time it was incredible to think that one bomb could level a city. The psychological effect allowed us to avoid an incredibly costly invasion.

I will concede that the bombs were products of science and were used in a horrific fashion, but I will not concede that it was worse than the alternative.

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But of course you're going to argue that this was politics or human nature, so I know I already lost this arguement.

Since you brought them up, Truman decided to use the bombs because the cost of an invasion would have been even more horrific, and World War 2 as a whole was a product of politics. Human nature played its part, Truman wanted to protect Americans and was willing to sacrifice the Japanese to do it.

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This entire post about the overuse and overprescription of behavioral modifying medication and how it is just an infantile form of the PAX on Serenity I think is a very good start, but for the same reasons as above, you're going to argue me on this one too.... so what's the point?

The issue is this "we keep letting science dictate our lives", just like you say that I have a love affair with science you seem intent on blaming it for everything that comes up. The PAX in Serenity was put on that planet because the POLITICIANS decided to engage in social engineering. Science can be used for good or evil, but in itself it is neither. You seem intent on painting science as the motivating force behind every issue you bring up instead of blaming the power-hungry PEOPLE at fault.

If you are saying that overmedication is a problem then I won't argue the point, but you want to blame science when the real fault lays with the social problems. Like I said before, if people didn't want the drugs they wouldn't be made and people want the drugs because our society can only sustain its industrial base by making people unhappy with their lives and telling them that if they buy more stuff they will be happy, but when they buy the stuff they still aren't happy so they decide to turn to medication.

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Well of course you won't defend that. Even science won't defend what the Nazi's did.

But it was done in the name of science and according to you I will never fail to defend science.

Quote:
because bringing up Nazi's in any argument to make a point, as it's been pointed out to me in here before, is simply a way of losing another arguement.

I was trying to find points that supported your assertion that science was driven by unscrupulous people

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:01 AM

Well sorry if it seems the way you thought it does, but it isn't. Like I said, I think we agree on this a lot more than you think. Perhaps it is businesses and politicians that should be entirely to blame for the evil things men do with science. Trust me, when I'm not in a debate with science people about science, those are usually the very people that I'm bashing all day long. It IS because of our corrupt government and economic system that I believe that science will be the device used to destroy mankind, or at least, everything that is good about mankind. It's all the same wheather we're wiped out in a global nuclear holocaust or if we're all successfully subdued and subjugated by a PAX-esque virus one day.

I'm not saying that all scientists are evil, and I don't have some false assumtions of "mad scientism" like I'm sure many people in the world have because the scientist is usually portrayed as crazy and power hungry, (Dr. Evil, Dr. Claw, Dr. No, the scientist that Newman played on Jurassic Park) the list goes on and on) or they are like those guys in the Aliens movies that wouldn't allow Ripley and crew to destroy the alien menace because of all of the scientific discoveries and applications that would be lost if they were to become extinct. Of course they usually were killed in the end and people rejoyced.

So, what is your answer then. I'm saying that science has run amok, and though we may disagree on the way that I word this, I think we agree that there is a serious misuse and abuse of science in certain and important cases that needs to be addressed and prevented in the future. I'm saying that there needs to be accountability.

I loved science when I was a kid, and even up until a few years ago. I think I really started to fear it when I realized that even the jocks and cheerleaders were using computers now, more than I was, for the internet. It was a wake up call. It was like WTF? This is something that computer nerds like me were into and got ridiculed for (well... I was pretty much a closet computer nerd myself. I did a lot of sports and partied quite a bit too). I dont' think the shrinking of the world due to the internet is a good thing. I suppose if you're pro science you embrace change. I don't like change. I like comfort zones. I like things to be the way they were. My problem, I realize. As the world speeds up, I'm likely to become a dinosaur before I'm 35 years old.

Can we at least agree that there needs to be some action taken to prevent science from being used in the future against mankind and the will of the individual? I'm talking about a psychological holocaust as well as a physical one. Maybe you're a fan of everybody thinking like-minded, and I'm thinking you're not because you like Firefly, (unless, that is, you rooted for the Alliance the whole time) but I'm terrified about that. I'm not suggesting we go back to the horse and buggy, but I'd like for things to slow down a bit and for responsible decisions to be made where something a bit more practical and morale than the almighty dollar was the primary motivating factor. I can't think of anything science has provided us with in the last 5 years which has benifited mankind.... something that we actually needed, yet we have a ton of technological stuff, made in China, in the last 5 years that we just can't live without now. Not one thing has improved our happiness, other than the artificial happiness that these evil little pills bring us. We're more miserable and at each other's throats than ever. You can argue high-speed internet and 50" plasma TV's are a boon if you like, but if anything, they only serve to alienate us even more from the people we're supposed to care about. I go to my dad's house now and they've got 5 TVs, 3 computers, 4 video game systems, and aside from the time my brothers, my dad, my step-mom and myself sit down for dinner, almost everybody goes back to their own room to veg out alone on whatever crap sparks their interests.... which is rarely the same thing.

Now, I'll blame thi

FREDGIBLET

Saturday, February 17, 2007 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Perhaps it is businesses and politicians that should be entirely to blame for the evil things men do with science.

YES!

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I believe that science will be the device used to destroy mankind, or at least, everything that is good about mankind. It's all the same wheather we're wiped out in a global nuclear holocaust or if we're all successfully subdued and subjugated by a PAX-esque virus one day.

Of course it will, you can't subjugate the world with medieval technology, but it isn't the fault of science that people want to do so in the first place. The only way to prevent something like that is to either cease all scientific research or find some way to change human nature (PAX anyone?

)

Quote:
So, what is your answer then. I'm saying that science has run amok

I'd like you to provide some examples, I can't think of any.

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and though we may disagree on the way that I word this, I think we agree that there is a serious misuse and abuse of science in certain and important cases that needs to be addressed and prevented in the future.

The instances that come up are exceedingly rare and the only way to prevent them is to change human nature or cease researching. You could argue that we lock away the dangerous stuff, but who chooses who has access? I wouldn't trust you to allow enough people and you wouldn't trust me not to allow to many, who decides?

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I'm saying that there needs to be accountability

More than just here, but that is a social issue, accountability is on the decline because we as a society don't want to take responsibility for our actions. I would love to see a world where politicians and CEO's are held accountable but I'm not holding my breath.

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I dont' think the shrinking of the world due to the internet is a good thing.

Why not?

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I suppose if you're pro science you embrace change. I don't like change. I like comfort zones. I like things to be the way they were. My problem, I realize

It's understandable, but the problem is that lack of research would put us at a severe disadvantage when we get an airborne Ebola virus, or run out of oil, or can't produce enough food for our population, etc.

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As the world speeds up, I'm likely to become a dinosaur before I'm 35 years old.

At least you aren't a Trilobite

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Can we at least agree that there needs to be some action taken to prevent science from being used in the future against mankind and the will of the individual?

Sure, but I'm pretty sure that we will disagree on how.

The problem is how do you balance the protection of the individual versus the need for research? For instance you don't want anything that threatens the will of the individual, but what about the positive uses for mood-altering drugs like Prozac? Do we not allow research into mood-altering drugs because they MIGHT be used for evil purposes?

Quote:
I'm talking about a psychological holocaust as well as a physical one. Maybe you're a fan of everybody thinking like-minded, and I'm thinking you're not because you like Firefly, (unless, that is, you rooted for the Alliance the whole time) but I'm terrified about that.

Wait...we weren't supposed to be rooting for the Alliance?

Quote:
I'm not suggesting we go back to the horse and buggy, but I'd like for things to slow down a bit and for responsible decisions to be made where something a bit more practical and morale than the almighty dollar was the primary motivating factor

You can choose one of the following, a capitalist society or a society where money isn't the final concern. You can't have both (or at least not for long).

Quote:
I can't think of anything science has provided us with in the last 5 years which has benifited mankind....

Cervical cancer vaccine? dozens of drugs for the containment of previously uncontainable diseases? more efficient solar cells that

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:04 AM

I certainly do have an issue with society. I think only very naieve individuals today don't. This is, however beside the point.

Everything you say about the internet being needed before it was made is completely wrong. Nobody needed it, EVER. Not then, not now. We only THINK we need it now. We only need it because now that everyone else has it, you're at a disadvantage without it. The Government made it and brought it into our homes and now it's used to keeps tabs on us. There is no denying that this is happening and even President Bush doesn't deny that it is being done, though he lies to us and says that it's okay because it's only the "bad guys", save your tinfoil hat comments.

Have no illusions that somebody monitors this forum, especially because people who share my opinion come around. Every post I've ever written in here I would imagine is being read by somebody in a suit somewhere. I just don't talk about it all the time or freak out about it because there isn't a damn thing I could do about it anyhow. At the very least, any possibility of a political career in my future is completley shot.

(To the suit that's reading this: Here's a big You. Have a nice day!)

The fact of the matter is that we are more honest with our computers than we are with anybody we know, which in turn means that the suits know more about me than I probably know about myself. Inhibitions are down online because nobody is face to face and nobody is trying to talk over each other at the same time so we say what we like. People pour their souls out in here, and on digg, and on MySpace, when they wouldn't even dream of going to the local mall and chatting complete strangers up about the same things.

I think it's really funny when people actually believe that when they mark that MySpace blog as private that they are really the only ones who can read them. As if the only way into our profiles is via our passwords. That's cute.

We can go from one board to another and based on different interests, we act completely different around another group of people, or at the very least we don't mention a lot of things to them that we would mention to people on the other board. We all do this in real life as well, as we converse with this clique or that clique, family or friends, ect... but the only one who knows how differently we act around seperate groups of people in real-life situations is ourselves, whereas on the internet, you leave an IP address footprint everytime you post a message, so even if nobody is watching you, there is always the ability to go back and see everything you've ever posted. Even deleted sites are archived. There's never been a sentence written and submitted on the internet by anyone that cannot be accessed. You might not be able to find it and get a "401" web-error, but you're foolish if you think that this hasn't been backed up and archived. The potential payback for archiving this information is priceless. Today it couldn't be used as admissable evidence in court in most cases, but just think about the arrests that could be made when this information is deemed all that is necessary for somebody to be guilty. We're talking, drug dealers, sexual perverts, child molesters, etc... all going down in flames for things they posted online 10 or 20 years ago. Sounds great, right?

Unfortunately the Government action won't stop there. When they ran out of REAL criminals, they'd start going after the morale crime of the week, such as illegal downloading of torrents or fines for posting clips of Firefly on YouTube. They wouldn't have done this 5 years ago because A) They were too busy going after real criminals and B)it would scare people away while they were still trying to get everyone using and eventually addicted to the internet. Now that most of us realize that we can't live without it and our children don't even believe us when we tell them that when we were in school we didn't have the internet, they are going to start coming after us. Sure, some of us might be strong e

KHYRON

Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:28 AM

I'm curious as to what 7%'s take is on this, since as a teacher he must come in contact with both real and imagined cases of ADHD and ADD on a regular basis.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 17, 2007 5:26 PM

And on a related note... You have GOT to see this!!

Feb. 15 - A mock advertisement campaign for a fake disorder and its accompanying drug is mistaken by many to be real. The campaign on display in a New York City art gallery and on a website has far exceeded organizers expectations as thousands of people have contacted them seeking prescription information.

http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=8818&src=cms

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, February 17, 2007 5:35 PM

I want it all, too!

That's unbelievable. "This Perfect Day" is right around the corner.

Signy, we are lost as a species.
I give up; let's all just praise Bush and take drugs.

Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:00 PM

I'm reminded of a book I read called the self destruction syndrome. In it there was a subculture of people who rejected main stream society, called negatives. One of the more bizzare things was that they didn't take drugs of any kind, so in a way it was like the opposite of modern day drug culture, a reversal we seem to be moving ever closer towards.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

THATWEIRDGIRL

Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:08 PM

Since you seem so intent on making me a leader of society...I accept. Now, does anyone want more internet? I think it's great.

Society and man is to blamed for the misuse of science. Research and science have helped many people live healthier and happier lives. What of people with celiac disease? There is a simple way to treat them, but without science, we would have never known that. The HPV vaccine, which was already pointed out to you, is a very exciting preventive measure. Advancements in weather detection allowed us to know Katrina was coming. Without that technology or the experts that interpreted it successfully, no one would have evacuated. It could have been much worse. Improving building materials and architecture science enables us to build structures that can withstand earthquakes. Science and research benefit us.

I trust my friends, neighbors, and family to tell me if I’m being drugged or brainwashed into submission...I'd tell them if I thought they were. I would argue that I’m more of a zombie without the help than I am with it.

Right, back to leading society...

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

FREDGIBLET

Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I certainly do have an issue with society. I think only very naieve individuals today don't. This is, however beside the point.

No, it isn't, the issue we keep coming back to is you pointing out a flaw in society and saying "science caused this". THAT is why I have to keep jumping in to defend science. If you point out a flaw in society and point to the REAL cause instead of just jumping to blame science then we can have an intelligent discussion about it.

Quote:
Everything you say about the internet being needed before it was made is completely wrong.

I didn't say that anyone needed it, I said they WANTED it. Enormous difference.

Quote:
Nobody needed it, EVER. Not then, not now. We only THINK we need it now.

ARPANET was created because the military wanted a method to transfer digital data between bases quickly. Universities picked it up because it was a pretty cool idea. The Uber-geeks in the colleges started to take it in to the world of the lesser geeks who thought it was really cool, and businesses picked it up because it was useful for the same reasons the military wanted it. As it sped up more uses were added to it until it became interesting to non-geeky people, once they became interested it turned into the Internet that we know today.

After the creation of ARPANET every expansion was driven by people who WANTED to try out the Internet, thus it was expanded to bring it to them.

Quote:
We only need it because now that everyone else has it, you're at a disadvantage without it.

E-mail takes a few seconds, snail mail takes a few days. If you go to a physical store you can buy whatever they have in stock, if you go to an internet store you can get almost anything you want. Without the Internet, if your favorite show gets cancelled you will have a hard time getting together with other fans to commiserate and voice your desire for more.

I understand your point, but the Internet does have real advantages.

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I just don't talk about it all the time or freak out about it because there isn't a damn thing I could do about it anyhow

I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we appreciate that.

Quote:
whereas on the internet, you leave an IP address footprint everytime you post a message, so even if nobody is watching you, there is always the ability to go back and see everything you've ever posted

That's stretching it pretty far, most places aren't going to keep IP logs for particularly long, anytime a server is replaced the log on that server isn't likely to be saved. And that is assuming that the server is set up to capture the logs in the first place, usually a good assumption, but not always true. Where I work we host our own website, in the not-to-distant future we will be swapping to a new server and the log on the old one will get formatted and disappear.

Quote:
Even deleted sites are archived. There's never been a sentence written and submitted on the internet by anyone that cannot be accessed. You might not be able to find it and get a "401" web-error, but you're foolish if you think that this hasn't been backed up and archived.

......

Do you have any idea how much storage space would be required for this? A hell of a lot. If they put it all on servers they would need enormous numbers of them to keep the data available. If they put it on tapes it would take huge amounts of time to actually find anything.

Quote:
Unfortunately the Government action won't stop there. When they ran out of REAL criminals, they'd start going after the morale crime of the week, such as illegal downloading of torrents or fines for posting clips of Firefly on YouTube. They wouldn't have done this 5 years ago because A) They were too busy going after real criminals and B)it would scare people away while they were still trying to get everyone using and eventually addicted to the internet.

Ever heard of the War On Drugs? It's been going on for decades a

SIGNYM

Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:16 PM

6String- I'm glad you explained your views in more detail. My comment is "Yes... but "

"Yes..." I think that a defense of science that rests on the notion "Science would be perfect if only it wasn't corrupted by money and people" is like "Religion would be perfect if only it wasn't corrupted by money and people". The difference between science and religion is that science is actually effective at predicting and controlling the forces that religion only pretends to. In some ways, science is more problematic than religion just because it si more powerful.

"Yes..." Science - or at least technology- DOES follow the money. Billions are spent developing "lifestyle" drugs (Viagra, statins, weight loss) because that's what rich people pay for while poor people and orphan diseases are untreated. Not only does science follow money, it follows our most deeply-held assumptions, prejudices, and limitations. ("The Mismeasure of Man" Stephen Jay Gould)

"Yes..."there is somtimes a dichotomy between what society needs and what people need.

"But..." just because society has it's own agenda does not mean that people don't have real needs. While I think our society should have more places for different personalities and capabilities, people also suffer physical and mental anguish that isn't going to be solved by changing society.

And at the same time, the pressure to conform- to sit still, to learn, to be agreeable, compliant, and believe the ads despite a miserable daily life- is not being enforced by "the government". It is really being compelled by economic forces- corporations, big money. Resting the blame on "government" is like laying the blame on "science"- it's misdirected.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:10 PM

Science is a tool, nothing more.

A very very powerful tool, and prone to misuse as any tool, but neutral in and of itself.

Like a gun, it's a tool powerful enough to be frightening, in spite of it's own neutrality and some people react to that, or to it's influance on those who use it.

While science has given us many wonderful things, it's also given us many more headaches and miseries as well, as the luddites would be so quick to remind us.

I think Jack's alluding to having such science as a similar principle.

"When you have a big hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail."

Not every problem can be solved by science, nor is technology often a wise or effective solution - we have all these wonderful toys, but if you were to take them away tomorrow...

Would we still have each other ?

Or have we so distanced ourselves from our humanity with these "advancements" that we're just isolated individuals in a geographical locale ?

I think that's what's bothering Jack, he just seems to be having trouble getting it across.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREDGIBLET

Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I think Jack's alluding to having such science as a similar principle.

"When you have a big hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail."

Not every problem can be solved by science, nor is technology often a wise or effective solution - we have all these wonderful toys, but if you were to take them away tomorrow...

Would we still have each other ?

Or have we so distanced ourselves from our humanity with these "advancements" that we're just isolated individuals in a geographical locale ?

I believe that we would adapt, just like we always have. Right now we are isolated individuals, but if we lost the ability to use technology to entertain us and provide us with social contact then we would revert to our neighbors. It would be a slow painful process, but it would happen.

Also, let me tell you a little about my situation, I live in a town filled with rednecks, druggies and old people, I am none of these. Without technology to connect me to others that share my interests I would likely almost never speak to anyone. Technology has allowed me to reach out and find people with similar interests and meet with them. I am not alone in this regard. On the Farscape bulletin board (the Sci-Fi channel one from when the show was still on) there was a guy who was basically bedridden constantly because of an injury, without technology to connect him to the world he wold have been virtually alone all the time, not to mention that he probably wouldn't have survived his injury.

Technology has allowed us to move beyond borders and geographical constrictions, consider a world where everybody knew everybody, where no matter country we were invading you had friends there, would you support wars or policies that could hurt your friends? Would they support actions that could hurt you?

SIRI

Saturday, February 17, 2007 10:52 PM

ADHD and pills. Couldn't decide if I wanted to get into this one or not. As someone who has worked with kids and their families for quite a few years, I've had some experience and have some thoughts on the topic.

First of all all so-called psychiatric disorders are simply a cluster of symptoms that affect people's lives and are given a name or classification. Symptoms of ADHD manifest in different ways. It becomes a disorder if and when it impacts their lives in a negative fashion, i.e., problems at home, at school or work and/or in society. If it's not a problem in those areas then it's assumed the individual can cope even if there are some deviations from so-called normal behavior. No diagnosis, no docs, no drugs.

Second, a lot of the docs handing out the ADHD drugs are not child psychiatrists but family docs and pediatricians who may or may not have much background or training in psychiatric problems. They are given lots of samples and promos by the drug reps.

Third, frequently it's the schools who tell parents to get their kids on something to control their behavior or they can't come back to school. I saw that happen quite often.

Fourth, the parents often demand the kids be put on meds. I have frequently seen the child psychiatrist counsel parents not to put their kids on drugs and even fight with the schools about it.

Finally, as a counselor I would try to help families learn to parent their kids to deal with the behavior rather than use drugs. They often didn't want to do that because they didn't have time or chose not to take the time. And most of the schools were in the same category.

I do believe it is a real disorder and meds can be useful but need to be carefully monitored. Counseling or at least a parenting class to help parents change the way they respond can also be beneficial. Fish oil may be beneficial. We have some docs that recommend it. However, too much fish oil makes them shit like geese and the parents get pretty freaked out by that, too.

Siri

RUE

Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:04 PM

I've been away for awhile.

Chris, is all

I feel for your father. In my experience, ADHD isn't just a set of behaviors, it's a type of internal, infernal noise noise NOISE that scrambles you, and causes a great deal of internal stress. I remember one instance in my life where I did focus on something and the noise went away (or maybe it was the other way around) and it was sheer bliss. Perhaps your father has had a similar experience and he's trying to find a way back there again.

And maybe that state is unusual for anyone - the extreme opposite of ADHD where no one lives but even normal people spend many hours in meditation trying to get there.

If that's what he's doing, though, I can understand why he craves the end of the noise and the state of clarity and focus.

RUE

Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:13 PM

Finn,

If I weren't an identical twin I'd say that ADD/ADHD is just part of a spectrum of human function. But I have ADHD and visual processing errors, and my twin most definitely does not. So I tend to think 'normal' genetics were there, but something went awry. That's another reason (albeit one unique to me) why I believe ADD/ ADHD is an error, not part of normal developoment.

RUE

Saturday, February 17, 2007 11:48 PM

6-string,

Science is (mostly) funded by government, but products are made by corporations who have a vested interest.

On a somewhat related note, it occurred to me that government is not the 'big evil', capitalism is.

One problem is that capitalism is based on more. There is nothing inherent in the system that says STOP at any point. At the very best, capitalism is a full-throttle train of getting us more but also using up the earth.

The other problem with capitalism is that it very literally doesn't account for anything except 'private goods'. There are things like social harmony, or 'the commons' like air and climate, which we all depend on for our very lives. But they are not incorporated into the economic model of 'capitalism', and because they are 'cost-free' they get used up and ruined.

And sadly we have been led to use capitalism as a social model rather than an economic one, and it doesn't work as a social model. Capitalism is about individual competition at all levels for more. Human society OTOH is frequently about cooperation and mutualism, and those good human inborn feelings of trust and care. Using capitalism as a model for society is why society is so 'effed up.

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
On a somewhat related note, it occurred to me that government is not the 'big evil', capitalism is.

COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
One problem is that capitalism is based on more. There is nothing inherent in the system that says STOP at any point. At the very best, capitalism is a full-throttle train of getting us more but also using up the earth.

The other problem with capitalism is that it very literally doesn't account for anything except 'private goods'. There are things like social harmony, or 'the commons' like air and climate, which we all depend on for our very lives. But they are not incorporated into the economic model of 'capitalism', and because they are 'cost-free' they get used up and ruined.

And sadly we have been led to use capitalism as a social model rather than an economic one, and it doesn't work as a social model. Capitalism is about individual competition at all levels for more. Human society OTOH is frequently about cooperation and mutualism, and those good human inborn feelings of trust and care. Using capitalism as a model for society is why society is so 'effed up.

Exactly, Rue you said it perfectly.

RUE

Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:10 AM

I'm a communist? Oh, OK.

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm a communist? Oh, OK.

Yes, because anyone who doesn't accept the absolute supremancy of capitalism in any and every circumstance is a dirty, filthy, godless, evil, red, freedom-hating, COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!

RUE

Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:35 AM

Then I must have signed up at some point when I thought I was just signing a petition at the grocery store entrance.

I'd have a problem with the 'dirty, filthy' part tho 'cause I like my showers and clean teeth and clothes. I guess I'll need to change my thinking from agnostic to aetheist. And if I'm to be evil I should stop taking care of family and frieneds when they need it. And I'm not red, I'm more of a pinkish-beige shade. I guess I'll have to do something about that. Plus I'll have to praise Bush, GITMO, the US PATRIOT Act and everywhere freedom is curbed, which really would irk me.

Man, this being a "dirty, filthy, godless, evil, red, freedom-hating, COMMUNIST" is hard work !

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:37 AM

Signym - Thank you for your post. This is the first reasonable argument that I have heard in here from the other side, and I was quite frankly getting a little scared of the science types basically telling me that nothing is science's fault and that even though there is no arguements that science will likely end society one way or another, this was simply attributed to human nature in such a cavalier way that it chills me to the bones.

I would think that at least a small minority of the world's brightest minds would be there trying to make sure that this doesn't happen. A sort of checks and balances, if you will. Just the fact that somebody as reasonable as you is here to say your piece gives me hope here that maybe there are some people who have a few scruples and will do what they can to ensure that science won't be used by man against mankind.

Frem - Where would I be without ya? Why are you the only person that understands me in here? Are my ideas so scrambled and all over the map that I just don't convey my opinions correctly. I was thinking that everyone in here was bullheaded and arrogant, but perhaps I just have a hard time getting my point across because I'm seeing so many things happen from so many different angles from outside of the box that it's impossible for me to be concise about it. Perhaps this is my shortcomming.

Anyhow.... I think that post was beautiful. I don't think I could have ever summed up my stance on science like that in under 150 words, and for that, I thank you.

Rue - Hey! Every once and a while we do agree on things and I'm happy to say that I can't find anything that you just said to argue about. I wouldn't say I'm a communist, but I'm pretty damned fed up with Capitalism myself. The lie that we can all strike it rich, when really it's just a tool used to keep all of the money in the fewest hands possible. Perhaps my views on science would be much different in a society that wasn't as greedy and materialistic as ours. If it were in the hands of leaders the people could trust to govern its applications.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:45 AM

6String- I keep noodling about human social behavior. There are a few consistent trends. Game theory has some things to say too. But our failures as a species and as a society isn't moral failing, just as ADHD isn't (always) a phantom diagnosis and isn't (always) ammenable to willpower.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
...But our failures as a species and as a society isn't moral failing, just as ADHD isn't (always) a phantom diagnosis and isn't (always) ammenable to willpower.

Our failures as a species isn't (always) a moral failing.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CHRISISALL

Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Signym - Thank you for your post. This is the first reasonable argument that I have heard in here from the other side, and I was quite frankly getting a little scared of the science types basically telling me that nothing is science's fault

6ix, science is our religion, not that carpenter and his vengeful father!!!! You wanna blame someone, blame youself, you science-hating, chemical fearing, anti-technologist!!! Grab a club and start beating your females to drag them back to your f**king cave, you dumb biped!!!!

P.S., just kidding- I didn't want ya to miss the contentiousness and ad-hominem attacks the RWED has become SO famous for, heh heh.

Science is a tool, and so is Chrisisall

RUE

Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:13 AM

Oh!

Uhhh ... let me try ...

Chrisisall,

why just look at your name, you must think you're such a universal know-it-all science smarty-pants ... uhhh (man this is tough) ...

whatEVER

that didn't go well

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:18 AM

Ha! I thought you were serious for a minute and then I realized that you're just way too good natured to say such things.... and then I read the Just Kidding.

And just like Science and Religion, we're all just a bunch of tools. You're in good company. Some of us are more useful than others, and some are just broke.

Don't worry about me missing the contentiousness and ad-hominem attacks the RWED has become SO famous for. I believe that I've been right in the thick of that for the last couple of weeks.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
basically telling me that nothing is science's fault

Science is a tool nothing more, it is uncaring unfeeling and incapable of acting on its own, science holds no blame because (like a gun) it requires a PERSON to wield it. Science holds no fault in the actions of people, yet because of your pre-existing prejudices you refuse to look past the tool and adress the root of the problem. You would not blame a gun for shooting someone, yet you blame science when PEOPLE use it to negative ends, yet again and again you say that science is at fault for the problems of the world. And if you want to argue that we have gun laws to keep guns away from criminals, remember that our gun laws utterly fail to do so and only serve to inconvienience people who want them for legitimate purposes.

Quote:
maybe there are some people who have a few scruples and will do what they can to ensure that science won't be used by man against mankind.

This is (at least one of the reasons) why we don't sell the secrets to making nuclear bombs or chemical weapons to who ever wants them. Believe it or not the VAST majority of the people in charge don't want to have a holocaust on their hands.

This seems to be the fundamental disconnect, you seem to think that everyone who has knowledge (this "Science" you keep talking about) wants to use it against mankind, but that simply isn't true, the vast majority of people with access to the powerful destructive tools that exist do NOT want to use them and do NOT want anyone else to have them.

Quote:
Perhaps my views on science would be much different in a society that wasn't as greedy and materialistic as ours. If it were in the hands of leaders the people could trust to govern its applications.

Good luck with that, I know you don't like to hear it but human nature won't let you have the world you want without radical changes. In every civilization there MUST be a governmental structure, the problem is that the people who seek out power are the exact type of people that you don't want in charge. The only solution is to either eliminate knowledge or change human nature (PAX anyone?).

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:06 AM

Nice protection there skippy. Everybody has a bomb.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
This seems to be the fundamental disconnect, you seem to think that everyone who has knowledge (this "Science" you keep talking about) wants to use it against mankind, but that simply isn't true, the vast majority of people with access to the powerful destructive tools that exist do NOT want to use them and do NOT want anyone else to have them.

This is your problem and your misinterpretation of what I've said. Frem stated my case very nicely for me and I'm not arguing it any further with you.

I ask for accountability and I ask for people to use their goddamned heads when playing with fire such as this and you say "that's human nature" and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Now I say to that, and to anyone with that attitude, GO TO HELL. I truly hope your science experiments blow you up and every scientist who thinks that way before it's too late.

I'm okay with Science if it's used responsibly, same goes for guns.

END OF DISCUSSION. BYE NOW!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

RUE

Sunday, February 18, 2007 8:54 AM

This is not on topic. But, to go with the flow - science is not responsible for how society uses science, society is.

It's like that culture at Mohenjo Daro - they used agriculture and tool making well, whereas most other cultures used them badly. Do we blame agriculture and tools, or the society that uses them?

VINCENOIRROCKNROLLSTAR

Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:43 PM

if every school were given the book by jack herer `the emporer wears no clothes` then a lot of social changes would be forthcoming ..the book if noone knows deals with the issue of hemp and its uses in the past present and future ..recent research shows that children and their behaviour is down to the varying degrees of omega 3/6/9 oils ..give the child a good source of these oils and their behaviour changes for the better ..give them diet drinks and plenty of sugar and they become aggressive un-attentionable hooligans (for the most part ).this is were the knowledge of hemp comes into play ,for years now governments of the world have led us to believe that cannabis is the devils drug and has no use in society today ..wrong its possibly the most useful plant (not drug)its seeds contain the most useful and plentiful sources of all three omega oils and amino acids available to humans (always as done) by changing our kids diets to include this we would expect to see great advances in behaviour,learning and social enhancement ..as for the use of the plant as a drug well i think were all pretty clear that it is useful for many ailments .but contrary to popular science cannabis in trials has proven to be a very useful drug in the growth of new brain cells and especially useful in the treatment of strokes (it can repair neuro pathways destroyed by the stroke ).now ask yourselves why so many neurotoxins have been introduced into our diets by such companies as `nutra sweet` coca cola ,mc donalds etc (usually with ceos with some connection to the american government ..i.e rumsfeld and his cronies who are also being paid in various shares options from these companies to get these products into the packed lunches of the worlds children)..can you see the bigger picture ? thats right folks they are gradually turning us all into test tubes for their laboratories ...get back to nature ,get hemp in your diet ..get well ...oh and hemp oil is the best source of nutrition to fight adhd (recent trials by gw pharmaceuticals prove this hands down ,but you try getting the documents from them ..no chance). there are currently at least 20 doctors worldwide who have been threatened with being struck off for stating that adhd is not a real disorder and that it is solely attributed to chemical ingestion via food (if i could find the links i`d post them ,but i just had a can of coke and cant think straight!)

shoot the moon ...shoooooot the mooon

KANEMAN

Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:42 PM

I would agree with 6ixstring on this. There are way to many children taking meds for a disease that may or may not ex......Ooh look a moth! What a pretty little moth. God I am starving. I wonder what I have in the frid....Fridgidair what kind of name is that? Fat rhymes with that, also cat..Cats are lions, or are lions cats? Courage is overrated. Must wash my iguana. I don't have one. One two three four five six. A B C D E F G H I J K.....

FREDGIBLET

Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
your misinterpretation of what I've said

What can I say? You make it really, really easy.

Quote:
I ask for accountability

The word that makes politicians tremble. I think there is far more accountability than you realize but I agree that more would be nice.

Quote:
and I ask for people to use their goddamned heads when playing with fire such as this

You will notice that we haven't had a global holocaust yet? That's because they do use their heads.

Quote:
I'm okay with Science if it's used responsibly

It is.

Quote:
BYE NOW!

Let's not say goodbye, but rather, see you soon.

KHYRON

Monday, February 19, 2007 1:24 PM

Somehow, somewhere, someone will say that science is evil and is oppressing all of us for doing this. Maybe that'll even happen in this very thread!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6369347.stm

Evil witchcraft such as this must not go unpunished! Burn all the scientists at the stake!

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

CITIZEN

Monday, February 19, 2007 5:11 PM

Well extrapolating an argument against genetics on another subject:

This is just a blatent attempt to produce a cure for people with Autism. Autism is a choice, and you genetic Nazis just want to force the correct choice on Autistics!

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:11 AM

Very interesting post VINCENOIRROCKNROLLSTAR. Just another example of how poorly science is utilized, particularly in this country. Test results are sold to the highest bidder and truth in science is controlled, just as truth in history and social studies is controlled by the people who control our politicians and the media. It's a sad state of affairs. I guess I'm just saying that I think we were all in a better place when they didn't have such a firm grasp on technologies most laypeople don't understand and will become slaves to.

Long live math. May they never make us believe that 2 + 2 = 5!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

VINCENOIRROCKNROLLSTAR

Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:08 PM

does that explain why i can`t set my dvd recorder to record late night poker?

shoot the moon ...shoooooot the mooon

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, February 23, 2007 1:38 AM

Prolly....

Use the technology to your advantage though. You can always hire somebody from India or China to program that DVD recorder for you.

BTW... is that the one with Shana Hyatt now? She's all kinds of gorgeous.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

VINCENOIRROCKNROLLSTAR

Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:03 PM

it`s the u.k version so i doubt it very much ...shame really ,i googled her name and you are indeed correct she`s a fox

shoot the moon ...shoooooot the mooon