ADHD.... Real disorder, or clever way to get us all on pills for life?
POSTED BY: 6ixStringJack
UPDATED: Saturday, February 24, 2007 12:03
VIEWED: 8797
PAGE 7 of 10
Since you seem so intent on making me a leader of society...I accept. Now, does anyone want more internet? I think it's great.
Society and man is to blamed for the misuse of science. Research and science have helped many people live healthier and happier lives. What of people with celiac disease? There is a simple way to treat them, but without science, we would have never known that. The HPV vaccine, which was already pointed out to you, is a very exciting preventive measure. Advancements in weather detection allowed us to know Katrina was coming. Without that technology or the experts that interpreted it successfully, no one would have evacuated. It could have been much worse. Improving building materials and architecture science enables us to build structures that can withstand earthquakes. Science and research benefit us.
I trust my friends, neighbors, and family to tell me if I’m being drugged or brainwashed into submission...I'd tell them if I thought they were. I would argue that I’m more of a zombie without the help than I am with it.
Right, back to leading society...
---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I certainly do have an issue with society. I think only very naieve individuals today don't. This is, however beside the point.
No, it isn't, the issue we keep coming back to is you pointing out a flaw in society and saying "science caused this". THAT is why I have to keep jumping in to defend science. If you point out a flaw in society and point to the REAL cause instead of just jumping to blame science then we can have an intelligent discussion about it.
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Everything you say about the internet being needed before it was made is completely wrong.
I didn't say that anyone needed it, I said they WANTED it. Enormous difference.
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Nobody needed it, EVER. Not then, not now. We only THINK we need it now.
ARPANET was created because the military wanted a method to transfer digital data between bases quickly. Universities picked it up because it was a pretty cool idea. The Uber-geeks in the colleges started to take it in to the world of the lesser geeks who thought it was really cool, and businesses picked it up because it was useful for the same reasons the military wanted it. As it sped up more uses were added to it until it became interesting to non-geeky people, once they became interested it turned into the Internet that we know today.
After the creation of ARPANET every expansion was driven by people who WANTED to try out the Internet, thus it was expanded to bring it to them.
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We only need it because now that everyone else has it, you're at a disadvantage without it.
E-mail takes a few seconds, snail mail takes a few days. If you go to a physical store you can buy whatever they have in stock, if you go to an internet store you can get almost anything you want. Without the Internet, if your favorite show gets cancelled you will have a hard time getting together with other fans to commiserate and voice your desire for more.
I understand your point, but the Internet does have real advantages.
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I just don't talk about it all the time or freak out about it because there isn't a damn thing I could do about it anyhow
I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we appreciate that.
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whereas on the internet, you leave an IP address footprint everytime you post a message, so even if nobody is watching you, there is always the ability to go back and see everything you've ever posted
That's stretching it pretty far, most places aren't going to keep IP logs for particularly long, anytime a server is replaced the log on that server isn't likely to be saved. And that is assuming that the server is set up to capture the logs in the first place, usually a good assumption, but not always true. Where I work we host our own website, in the not-to-distant future we will be swapping to a new server and the log on the old one will get formatted and disappear.
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Even deleted sites are archived. There's never been a sentence written and submitted on the internet by anyone that cannot be accessed. You might not be able to find it and get a "401" web-error, but you're foolish if you think that this hasn't been backed up and archived.
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Do you have any idea how much storage space would be required for this? A hell of a lot. If they put it all on servers they would need enormous numbers of them to keep the data available. If they put it on tapes it would take huge amounts of time to actually find anything.
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Unfortunately the Government action won't stop there. When they ran out of REAL criminals, they'd start going after the morale crime of the week, such as illegal downloading of torrents or fines for posting clips of Firefly on YouTube. They wouldn't have done this 5 years ago because A) They were too busy going after real criminals and B)it would scare people away while they were still trying to get everyone using and eventually addicted to the internet.
Ever heard of the War On Drugs? It's been going on for decades a
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6String- I'm glad you explained your views in more detail. My comment is "Yes... but "
"Yes..." I think that a defense of science that rests on the notion "Science would be perfect if only it wasn't corrupted by money and people" is like "Religion would be perfect if only it wasn't corrupted by money and people". The difference between science and religion is that science is actually effective at predicting and controlling the forces that religion only pretends to. In some ways, science is more problematic than religion just because it si more powerful.
"Yes..." Science - or at least technology- DOES follow the money. Billions are spent developing "lifestyle" drugs (Viagra, statins, weight loss) because that's what rich people pay for while poor people and orphan diseases are untreated. Not only does science follow money, it follows our most deeply-held assumptions, prejudices, and limitations. ("The Mismeasure of Man" Stephen Jay Gould)
"Yes..."there is somtimes a dichotomy between what society needs and what people need.
"But..." just because society has it's own agenda does not mean that people don't have real needs. While I think our society should have more places for different personalities and capabilities, people also suffer physical and mental anguish that isn't going to be solved by changing society.
And at the same time, the pressure to conform- to sit still, to learn, to be agreeable, compliant, and believe the ads despite a miserable daily life- is not being enforced by "the government". It is really being compelled by economic forces- corporations, big money. Resting the blame on "government" is like laying the blame on "science"- it's misdirected.
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Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.
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Science is a tool, nothing more.
A very very powerful tool, and prone to misuse as any tool, but neutral in and of itself.
Like a gun, it's a tool powerful enough to be frightening, in spite of it's own neutrality and some people react to that, or to it's influance on those who use it.
While science has given us many wonderful things, it's also given us many more headaches and miseries as well, as the luddites would be so quick to remind us.
I think Jack's alluding to having such science as a similar principle.
"When you have a big hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail."
Not every problem can be solved by science, nor is technology often a wise or effective solution - we have all these wonderful toys, but if you were to take them away tomorrow...
Would we still have each other ?
Or have we so distanced ourselves from our humanity with these "advancements" that we're just isolated individuals in a geographical locale ?
I think that's what's bothering Jack, he just seems to be having trouble getting it across.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I think Jack's alluding to having such science as a similar principle.
"When you have a big hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail."
Not every problem can be solved by science, nor is technology often a wise or effective solution - we have all these wonderful toys, but if you were to take them away tomorrow...
Would we still have each other ?
Or have we so distanced ourselves from our humanity with these "advancements" that we're just isolated individuals in a geographical locale ?
I believe that we would adapt, just like we always have. Right now we are isolated individuals, but if we lost the ability to use technology to entertain us and provide us with social contact then we would revert to our neighbors. It would be a slow painful process, but it would happen.
Also, let me tell you a little about my situation, I live in a town filled with rednecks, druggies and old people, I am none of these. Without technology to connect me to others that share my interests I would likely almost never speak to anyone. Technology has allowed me to reach out and find people with similar interests and meet with them. I am not alone in this regard. On the Farscape bulletin board (the Sci-Fi channel one from when the show was still on) there was a guy who was basically bedridden constantly because of an injury, without technology to connect him to the world he wold have been virtually alone all the time, not to mention that he probably wouldn't have survived his injury.
Technology has allowed us to move beyond borders and geographical constrictions, consider a world where everybody knew everybody, where no matter country we were invading you had friends there, would you support wars or policies that could hurt your friends? Would they support actions that could hurt you?
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ADHD and pills. Couldn't decide if I wanted to get into this one or not. As someone who has worked with kids and their families for quite a few years, I've had some experience and have some thoughts on the topic.
First of all all so-called psychiatric disorders are simply a cluster of symptoms that affect people's lives and are given a name or classification. Symptoms of ADHD manifest in different ways. It becomes a disorder if and when it impacts their lives in a negative fashion, i.e., problems at home, at school or work and/or in society. If it's not a problem in those areas then it's assumed the individual can cope even if there are some deviations from so-called normal behavior. No diagnosis, no docs, no drugs.
Second, a lot of the docs handing out the ADHD drugs are not child psychiatrists but family docs and pediatricians who may or may not have much background or training in psychiatric problems. They are given lots of samples and promos by the drug reps.
Third, frequently it's the schools who tell parents to get their kids on something to control their behavior or they can't come back to school. I saw that happen quite often.
Fourth, the parents often demand the kids be put on meds. I have frequently seen the child psychiatrist counsel parents not to put their kids on drugs and even fight with the schools about it.
Finally, as a counselor I would try to help families learn to parent their kids to deal with the behavior rather than use drugs. They often didn't want to do that because they didn't have time or chose not to take the time. And most of the schools were in the same category.
I do believe it is a real disorder and meds can be useful but need to be carefully monitored. Counseling or at least a parenting class to help parents change the way they respond can also be beneficial. Fish oil may be beneficial. We have some docs that recommend it. However, too much fish oil makes them shit like geese and the parents get pretty freaked out by that, too.
Siri
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I've been away for awhile.
Chris, is all
I feel for your father. In my experience, ADHD isn't just a set of behaviors, it's a type of internal, infernal noise noise NOISE that scrambles you, and causes a great deal of internal stress. I remember one instance in my life where I did focus on something and the noise went away (or maybe it was the other way around) and it was sheer bliss. Perhaps your father has had a similar experience and he's trying to find a way back there again.
And maybe that state is unusual for anyone - the extreme opposite of ADHD where no one lives but even normal people spend many hours in meditation trying to get there.
If that's what he's doing, though, I can understand why he craves the end of the noise and the state of clarity and focus.
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Finn,
If I weren't an identical twin I'd say that ADD/ADHD is just part of a spectrum of human function. But I have ADHD and visual processing errors, and my twin most definitely does not. So I tend to think 'normal' genetics were there, but something went awry. That's another reason (albeit one unique to me) why I believe ADD/ ADHD is an error, not part of normal developoment.
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6-string,
Science is (mostly) funded by government, but products are made by corporations who have a vested interest.
On a somewhat related note, it occurred to me that government is not the 'big evil', capitalism is.
One problem is that capitalism is based on more. There is nothing inherent in the system that says STOP at any point. At the very best, capitalism is a full-throttle train of getting us more but also using up the earth.
The other problem with capitalism is that it very literally doesn't account for anything except 'private goods'. There are things like social harmony, or 'the commons' like air and climate, which we all depend on for our very lives. But they are not incorporated into the economic model of 'capitalism', and because they are 'cost-free' they get used up and ruined.
And sadly we have been led to use capitalism as a social model rather than an economic one, and it doesn't work as a social model. Capitalism is about individual competition at all levels for more. Human society OTOH is frequently about cooperation and mutualism, and those good human inborn feelings of trust and care. Using capitalism as a model for society is why society is so 'effed up.
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Originally posted by rue:
On a somewhat related note, it occurred to me that government is not the 'big evil', capitalism is.
COMMUNIST!!!!!!!!!
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One problem is that capitalism is based on more. There is nothing inherent in the system that says STOP at any point. At the very best, capitalism is a full-throttle train of getting us more but also using up the earth.
The other problem with capitalism is that it very literally doesn't account for anything except 'private goods'. There are things like social harmony, or 'the commons' like air and climate, which we all depend on for our very lives. But they are not incorporated into the economic model of 'capitalism', and because they are 'cost-free' they get used up and ruined.
And sadly we have been led to use capitalism as a social model rather than an economic one, and it doesn't work as a social model. Capitalism is about individual competition at all levels for more. Human society OTOH is frequently about cooperation and mutualism, and those good human inborn feelings of trust and care. Using capitalism as a model for society is why society is so 'effed up.
Exactly, Rue you said it perfectly.
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