You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Monday, March 31, 2008 01:30
VIEWED: 12781
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hal_Cone
It all started w/ a guy named James Hal Cone
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
James Hal Cone (August 5, 1938 - ) is an African-American Christian theologian in the Methodist tradition. He is one of America's best known architects of Black theology, a form of Liberation theology. He is currently the Charles Augustus Briggs Distinguished Professor of Systematic Theology at Union Theological Seminary in the City of New York.
Cone was born and raised in Arkansas and received a B.A. degree from Philander Smith College in Arkansas in 1958, a B.D. degree from Garrett-Evangelical Theological Seminary in 1961, and M.A. and Ph.D. degrees from Northwestern University in 1963 and 1965, respectively. He taught theology and religion at Philander Smith College, Adrian College in Michigan, and beginning in 1970 at Union Theological Seminary in New York City, where he was awarded the distinguished Charles A. Briggs Chair in systematic theology in 1977.
James Cone was the first person to create a systematic Black theology. He felt that Black Christians in Northern America should not follow the "white Church", as it had failed to support them in their struggle for equal rights. Though this theme runs throughout Cone's work, his early books (Black Theology and Black Power and A Black Theology of Liberation) draw heavily on mainstream white theologians like Karl Barth (on whom Cone had written his doctoral thesis) and Paul Tillich.
In response to criticism from other black theologians (including his brother, Cecil), Cone began to make greater use of resources native to the African American Christian community for his theological work, including slave spirituals, the blues, and the writings of prominent African American thinkers like David Walker, Henry McNeal Turner, and W. E. B. Du Bois. Critiques by black women also led Cone to make consideration of gender issues more prominent in his later writings, thus paving the way for womanist theology. His theology has also been heavily influenced by Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr.
[edit]Controversy
Some of Cones quotes have drawn controversy. Barak Obama's former minister Jeremiah Wright was inspired by Cone. Although Obama has condemned some of most controversial statements of Wright as needlessly divisive and distorted, Wright's ministry is founded on the black theology that Cone helped to create
"To be Christian is to be one of those whom God has chosen. God has chosen black people." [Black Theology and Black Power, pp. 139-140].
"While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 15]
"All white men are responsible for white oppression." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 24]
"Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 40]
"If there is any contemporary meaning of the Antichrist, the white church seems to be a manifestation of it." [Black Theology and Black Power, p. 73]
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Yeh a black conspiratorist. White women want black men, black women have been raped by white men thats how high yellow babies are made, and blue eyes is the mark of the beast. Irish folk are cromagnoms. Barbeque contests are rigged for white folk to win. Jews all gotz the money. Rome was built by africans. Jesus was a soul baby. Hurricanes with white names always hit black towns caused by Bush. Etc etc.
"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".
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What's your point exactly? that blacks have had pretty valid reasons to fear and even hate the white man? That some people who established the religion were distrutful of and maybe even demonized the white man?(like we needed any help).
And that is different than christianity historically, how? How many churches preach hatred even today towards homosexuals and muslims? Are we all guilty by association then?
If you're going to try to attack Reverend Wright base the attacks on something relevant to today. Maybe I've missed some of his "scathing" diatribes, but I haven't heard anytying out of him that I disagree with yet...except the whole thing about there being a God.
In fact, representing a community that has not been so friendly to homosexuals, this man has even championed that minority.
By the way, this view is coming from a straight white male who doesn't hate himself, his race, or his country, though I am disappoiinted in it, and frankly think it should be scolded...you know, the way you do a child that you love.
Oh...you don't like to be scolded? Did he use words that made you feel bad and wet the bed when he said, "god damn america?"
If you can't take serious criticism...if you want to just attack it and comdemn it when you hear it rather than to look at its context and it possible didactic value, then you probably don't have the mental fortitude to involve yourself in the shaping of this country's government.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
but I haven't heard anytying out of him that I disagree with yet...By the way, this view is coming from a straight white male
So you agree that he and all blacks have every right to hate you, there is nothing wrong with that hate, and that you are personally responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened to anyone, anywhere, at any time.
Thats good of you. Me, I don't know the man, so him hating me but not knowing me all because of race just don't seem neighborly. And I never owned a slave or raised my hand against anyone except folks who broke the law...and I never look at the person's demographics until AFTER I read the report and decide how I'm handling the case...age, race, gender, they just don't seem important when compared to what, when, and how for reviewing cases.
I do make great BBQ.
H
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Wright's most well-known rantings :
1) The Government invented AIDS in the 1970's to kill black people
2) The USA is the same as Al Qaida
3) America deserved 911....chickens came home to roost
4) White man is the devil, lower than a skunk
5) and of course...God Damn America. What a nice thing to say in a church...especially a church with a US Senator & his children sitting in it.
The ONLY way out for Obama to keep his candidacy even remotely viable is to just come out and say that Rev Wright is INSANE. Nothing less will work, and even that probably won't prevent his total collapse of support.
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What? This is what we've come to? Where a candidate might lose support because he USED to attend a church whose minister found Cone's theology inspirational? Are you serious?
I used to attend a church where they taught women were beneath men, and can't even hold enough authority over boys to teach Sunday school. I went there cause they had really good music. Then I slowly became aware of the creepy sexism and left. Does that mean on this point alone, running for office is ruled out for me?
Candidates should be judged on what they believe today, not for what their former ministers used to think. Good grief.
--------------------------
Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds.
--Henry Adams, The Education of Henry Adams, 1907
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I refuse to feel any guit about slavery. My ancestors came to this county only about a hundred years ago from a country that abolished the slave trade in 1776. Obama's family is much more likely to have been involve with the slave trade than mine. His African born father's family could have been rounding up slaves from other tribes for foreign sale for a hundred years after my ancestors abolished slavery.
It was a huge mistake for Obama to fall into Hillary's trap and bring race into the contest. His popularity among whites was partially due to the image he was projecting as a uniter of races. Now he's just another black dude running for President.
And Yes, Cantakesky you would be disqualified from being President in my book. If you were an adult when you attended the sexist church and continued to go even after their beliefs were known to you. Doesn't mean you aren't a good person, just means you don't have the leadership skills required to be President. A leader is someone that stands up for their beliefs even when they are not popular in the group they are currently in.
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Quote:I stood up for them when I realized what my beliefs were. Or are potential candidates not allowed to explore values contrary to those practiced by the mainstream, even if they ultimately rejected those values they were exploring?
Originally posted by Kirkules:
A leader is someone that stands up for their beliefs even when they are not popular in the group they are currently in.
--------------------------
If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything.
--Mark Twain
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Jong, where'd you get those. I'll look them up....you know, as they appear when quoted.
not saying you're wrong...but if those were his "well known" rantings, how come they focusing on the one I mentioned?
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Yeah, why judge a man by his own actions and words when you can crucify him for something someone he knows read.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:Dead serious. And what's all this talk about " use to " ? Obama still attends or is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ. And technically speaking , Rev Wright keeps being described as " retired' . He was set to retire " officially " from the church at the end of the month, March 31st. Since all this fuss exploded, he's shipped himself off to Africa, on "sabbatical " , away from prying reporters.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
What? This is what we've come to? Where a candidate might lose support because he USED to attend a church whose minister found Cone's theology inspirational? Are you serious?
Quote:That's not that far from literal biblical teaching. A bit kooky by today's standards, I'll admit, but it's a far cry from insisting Jesus being 'black', as if his color was the important part of his message. Or saying that God has to be black, or that blacks should reject his love. THAT's far and away more extreme than the sexist tripe of which you speak.
I used to attend a church where they taught women were beneath men, and can't even hold enough authority over boys to teach Sunday school. I went there cause they had really good music. Then I slowly became aware of the creepy sexism and left. Does that mean on this point alone, running for office is ruled out for me?
Quote:
Candidates should be judged on what they believe today, not for what their former ministers used to think. Good grief.
I swear, where are you getting this "former minister" line from ? Sounds like a line from some talking points pamphlet. Rev Wright has been Obama's minister for over 20 yrs, a family friend and religious mentor. For all intents and purposes, he's STILL his minister. You try to act as if he's not been around since Barack was a little boy. Nice try , but that's simply not the case.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Obama's got his wacky pastor. McCain's got 2 (and even had to pull a flip-flop to put them there).
And this has what to do with their ability to lead??
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Hero, I'm saying you guys are ever diligent in your pursuit of the black racist. I'm saying I'm not unsympathetic to a minority that, feeling they were abused has a certain hatred for those they think of as their abusers. That doesn't mean I take responsibility for everything that has ever happened to them, or that I think whites are any different than blacks...everybody is capable of inflicting pain and marginalizing people...
I'm just saying the reasons are right on the fucking radar, and trying to push down the feelings of the recently oppressed who frankly have not been fully delivered from a lesser place in our society, is not part of the healing process.
Heh, I'm saying I'm not as fucking sensitive as you pantywaists, and when somebody who is not in a position of power over me is preaching that I am the white devil, I don't lock my doors and bar my windows, and pray to holy spirit "please don't let the angry black man get to me".
but I'm also saying the founder of the church does not equate to the current pastor, which seems to be auraptor's effort. Do we really want to look back on the history of catholicism so that we can call catholics inquisitionists? Do we want to call all churches birthed out of puritanism fundamentalist?(maybe some of them sure...but)
If those things that Jong pointed out have been said by the Reverend Wright, and he has not grown beyond them himself to denounce them, then perhaps he hasn't spiritually evolved enough that he should be leading men and women to some place spiritual themselves.
But I find the vitriol towards him and people like him amusing, especially since the likelihood of anybody posting something like this to be listing the horrible preachings of Falwel or Dobson almost nil, even while the both of them have been so closely associated with party politics for so long.
.......................................
As for Obama, w're getting pretty fucking far removed from anything relevant to him or his own sense of the world. Pinning the shit Auraptor is trying to on Obama is pretty shameful.
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Auraptor, are yo offended by the idea of a black Jesus? Is that really that offensive?....
are you also saying that at one point the reverend said that god was black and that at another he said blacks should reject his love?
Heh? well at least that isn't racist.
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670,000 Americans died fighting over the freedom of black people that debt to blacks for slavery has been paid. I know all about state rights issue. Well the rev needs to join the party instead of dividing it. If baby Jesus is black then that explains when Herod was killing babies that Jesus blended in when hiding from him in the Sudan. I think thats in the bible.
"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Auraptor, are yo offended by the idea of a black Jesus? Is that really that offensive?....
are you also saying that at one point the reverend said that god was black and that at another he said blacks should reject his love?
Heh? well at least that isn't racist.
Assuming Jesus ever existed, saying he was 'black' is more silly than anything. Really.
And I'm not 'saying' anything. I just posted what this James H. Cone character said, so don't confuse the issue by interjecting ME into what they think and preach. Got a problem w/ their whacky views ? Fine. But don't ask if *I* think it's racist or what ever. It is what it is.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
What? This is what we've come to? Where a candidate might lose support because he USED to attend a church whose minister found Cone's theology inspirational? Are you serious?
I used to attend a church where they taught women were beneath men, and can't even hold enough authority over boys to teach Sunday school. I went there cause they had really good music. Then I slowly became aware of the creepy sexism and left. Does that mean on this point alone, running for office is ruled out for me?
Candidates should be judged on what they believe today, not for what their former ministers used to think. Good grief.
--------------------------
Politics, as a practice, whatever its professions, has always been the systematic organization of hatreds.
--Henry Adams, The Education of Henry Adams, 1907
Oh...your response is a nice dance. A man running for President is judged by his decisions and relationships and good judgement. I guess you are able to be so liberal and carefree that if he had lunch with Bin Laden a few times that'd be swell too...? 20 years with that maniac fucking racist asshole preacher of hatred and divisiveness & utter paranoid delusions & the Obamas sat there and smiled?,...that means a lot to the vast majority of Americans.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
...20 years with that maniac fucking racist asshole preacher of hatred and divisiveness & utter paranoid delusions & the Obamas sat there and smiled?,...that means a lot to the vast majority of Americans.
Well, it would, if that's what happened.
Any of you listen to Obama's version of what happened in his speech yesterday?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Eh, that's what happens why you try to edit on the fly.
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Quote:
You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???
Well, since you asked...
NO
Rev Wright isn't running for office.
And if you really want to know what Obama thinks (very doubtful) why don't you listen to him yourself?
I hope this thread dies the ignominious death it deserves.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:
You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ???
Well, since you asked...
NO
Rev Wright isn't running for office.
And if you really want to know what Obama thinks (very doubtful) why don't you listen to him yourself?
I hope this thread dies the ignominious death it deserves.
Barack's after the fact comments are of no value what so ever. Its like Clinton trying to explain ,after he pleasured himself w/ an intern, that no such encounters ever happened. No matter how flowery the speech afterwards, he still did not distance himself from the man who thinks these things, who preached these things for over 20 yrs, and remains unrepentant to his fact challenged and hate filled diatribes he caslls 'sermons'.
I guess I'm not as gullible as so many on here who would rather see the whole affair go away. The only thing which deserves a ignominious end is Obama's campaign, and I truly hope this issue helps that along quickly.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Auraptor, aside of your Kevin Bacon game with Barrack and Cone via a church connecting reverend WRight, you've failed to even bother to try to articulare how telling us about Cone has anythihng to do with Wright, and your leap from Cone to Obama is even more stunningly short of clearing that chasm.
Dude, what is your point?
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So McCain's preacher friend Hagee can say the Catholic Church is a "great whore" and that gays are the reason God brought Katrina to bear on New Orleans, but since you ain't Catholic and you ain't gay, who cares, right?
Quote:
Given my background, my politics, and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church? And I confess that if all that I knew of Reverend Wright were the snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television and You Tube, or if Trinity United Church of Christ conformed to the caricatures being peddled by some commentators, there is no doubt that I would react in much the same way
But the truth is, that isn't all that I know of the man. The man I met more than twenty years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God's work here on Earth - by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.
In my first book, Dreams From My Father, I described the experience of my first service at Trinity:
"People began to shout, to rise from their seats and clap and cry out, a forceful wind carrying the reverend's voice up into the rafters….And in that single note - hope! - I heard something else; at the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion's den, Ezekiel's field of dry bones. Those stories - of survival, and freedom, and hope - became our story, my story; the blood that had spilled was our blood, the tears our tears; until this black church, on this bright day, seemed once more a vessel carrying the story of a people into future generations and into a larger world. Our trials and triumphs became at once unique and universal, black and more than black; in chronicling our journey, the stories and songs gave us a means to reclaim memories that we didn't need to feel shame about…memories that all people might study and cherish - and with which we could start to rebuild."
That has been my experience at Trinity. Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety - the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.
And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions - the good and the bad - of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.
I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anythingNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You know, this is idiotic, both on the face of it and in complexity.
My stock response to being snarked at for being a honky applies here, I think.
"Look, I never did shit to you, you ain't never done shit to me, so why start somethin over nothin ?"
If folks looked at other people as individual human beings, this bullshit wouldn't even be an issue in the first place, ever.
-F
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Quote:
I guess you are able to be so liberal and carefree that if he had lunch with Bin Laden a few times that'd be swell too...?
Well... maybe if he'd had lunch with Saddam - you know, like Rumsfeld did. Go ahead, say it never happened, and that the pictures lie... :)
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
...and of course...God Damn America. What a nice thing to say in a church...especially a church with a US Senator & his children sitting in it...
Except, of course, that Obama WASN'T there when that "sermon" was given. It's already been investigated and proven that he was in Florida when that went down. Even Bill Cristol (the neo-con hack, not the comedian) had to publish a retraction on that one.
Do I have problems with Wright, and with Obama having him as his pastor? You bet I do. But I have problems with ALL the candidates and their "religious advisors". If you're secure in your belief system, you really don't need someone to tell you what you believe, do you?
McCain has TWO whacko religious zealots on his payroll, and you've heard nary a peep about it. Hillary has some certifiable nut-jobs giving her religious "advice", but you don't hear about that, either.
To me, they're all about equally screwed.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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You know, I don't think I've ever been touchy about racism in the past, but I'm hearing more and more of these stories going around, and to my ear they sound like bedtime stories for people who don't want to face their own racial bigotry.
A friend of my mom's was telling me that there's a real danger that Obama could be a "plant". I pressed the issue and she said outright that she thought he could be in some kind of terrorist sleeper cell or something. She's old, but otherwise sane and intelligent. But she is a bit of a racist, by today's standards, and I think latching on to these kinds of stories gives her "cover".
I'm hearing this same kind of crap from all kinds of sources too. Most of them are perpetuated by older, whiter, people, but it's not just them.
Until a couple of months ago, I'd have really resisted the notion that this election will be any kind of referendum on racism. But I'm beginning to think that in its own subtle way, it very much will be.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Rev. Wright is a good example of the extreme racism that exists in the US. A racism that exists predominately among African-Americans, at least some. Unfortunately, there is a double standard when it comes to racism in the US. An outright racist like Rev. Wright gets defended for his racist statements for being black. But a white person, like say someone in the KKK, would be despised for his racist views. Quite frankly, I have no stomach for racism and I won’t give Rev. Wright a pass because he’s black. He is as big racist as anyone in the KKK, and his association with Obama is a huge stain on Obama’s campaign. Now I never had any intention of voting for Obama, but if I had been, this would make me rethink whether Obama is really fit to be the President of the US.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
He is as big racist as anyone in the KKK, and his association with Obama is a huge stain on Obama’s campaign.
Finn, my hat's off to you. While we may disagree, sometimes vehemently, on most political matters, I think you've summed this issue up more succinctly than anyone I've yet discussed it with.
I *DO* have a problem with Wright, and by association with Obama - but then again, I have a problem with pretty much any religious person, since it's hard to have a heart-to-heart talk with someone whom you feel to be rather insane, believing in fairy tales and such...
Obama has pretty much had my vote to lose since early in the campaign. Crap like Wright's "God DAMN America!" diatribe don't do a thing for people like me. It doesn't make me want to vote for Obama, and it doesn't make me really want to vote AGAINST him, either; it just makes me want to stay home on Election Day. :(
Mostly, though, it makes me want the grab Wright by the scruff of his neck, shake him - HARD - and scream "What the fuck were you THINKING?! YOU'RE NOT HELPING!!"
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Rev. Wright is a good example of the extreme racism that exists in the US. A racism that exists predominately among African-Americans, at least some. Unfortunately, there is a double standard when it comes to racism in the US. An outright racist like Rev. Wright gets defended for his racist statements for being black. But a white person, like say someone in the KKK, would be despised for his racist views. Quite frankly, I have no stomach for racism and I won’t give Rev. Wright a pass because he’s black. He is as big racist as anyone in the KKK, and his association with Obama is a huge stain on Obama’s campaign. Now I never had any intention of voting for Obama, but if I had been, this would make me rethink whether Obama is really fit to be the President of the US.
-- Cicero
Well you're right...Obama is not really fit anymore...His judgement is pathetic and he is a hypocrite racist himself :
When Imus uttered that phrase NHH Obama & Jesse Jackson immediately demanded that he be fired. They did NOT want to hear about the millions he'd given to charity, or his ranch for poor kids....they didn't want to know anything except that Imus would be gone. But NOW...Obama & Jackson want us all to look at ALL of Rev Wright's history, not just the you tube rants. And that my friends is total bullshit hypocricy! Truth is I don't care about Wright's vile racism. I care about his virulent anti-Americanism...his hatred of the country he lives in..and for Obama to equate his hatred of America to race is also total bullshit. Obama is toast, so are the Dems as they are stuck with him.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
Auraptor, aside of your Kevin Bacon game with Barrack and Cone via a church connecting reverend WRight, you've failed to even bother to try to articulare how telling us about Cone has anythihng to do with Wright, and your leap from Cone to Obama is even more stunningly short of clearing that chasm.
Dude, what is your point?
It's really straight forward, if you read the post. Cone taught Wright and Wright preached his brand of hatred and racism to Obama ( along w/ the rest of his congregation ) That Obama, who could chose any Church he wished, would decide to stick w/ this race baiting kook is all the more telling of Mr. Obma.
To put it in perspective, Cone is the Sith Lord to Wright's apprenticeship, and Obama is the apprentice to Sith Lord Wright.
Got it?
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Sarge: Obviously racism is alive and well in the USA.
What I heard Obama say is that resentment on all sides of the black/ white/ brown/ yellow divide is real, with real reasons behind it. But if we fight racially over ever-diminishing opportunities, the real reasons for our crumbling schools, dysfunctional healthcare, and disappearing jobs will laugh all the way to the bank.
Up until then I thought Obama was just an empty suit, but at that point he got my vote.
We've got to MOVE ON, people, and start making real changes instead of fighting over crap that's 200 years old!
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:So that means that George 'dubya' Bush learned his fascist ways from his father WH Bush, who in turn learned them from his Nazi-supporting father, Senator Prescott Bush!
It's really straight forward, if you read the post. Cone taught Wright and Wright preached his brand of hatred and racism to Obama
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
*sarcasm on*
Hot damn, man... I never thought I'd agree with you on anything!
*sarcasm off*
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Let's play six degrees of Kevin Bacon for this election.
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"Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as His divine messianic force to be -- a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America: 'You are too arrogant! If you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power"" - Martin Luther King
i dont know specifically the reverend Wrights views, whether his theology is consistent with what i know of the bible.. but i will say that Dr. Kings speech rings very true to me. now im not sure whether their is underlying racial bias involved in Mr. Wrights beliefs, or the so called "black liberation theology", but this is a lesson every church should learn, since its implicit in almost every aspect of Jesus' messages
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You wanna listen to a REAL racist black man??? Try and sit through this:
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:So that means that George 'dubya' Bush learned his fascist ways from his father WH Bush, who in turn learned them from his Nazi-supporting father, Senator Prescott Bush!
It's really straight forward, if you read the post. Cone taught Wright and Wright preached his brand of hatred and racism to Obama
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
*sarcasm on*
Hot damn, man... I never thought I'd agree with you on anything!
*sarcasm off*
---------------------------------
Let's play six degrees of Kevin Bacon for this election.
Problem is, Bush isn't a fascist, nor was his father, so your whole silly argument has no legs to it.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You wanna listen to a REAL racist black man??? Try and sit through this:
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
How is that racist? A bit daft, maybe, but there's some truth to it. Seems to be more like dueling preachers than anything, trying to out shout each other rather than sticking to the word of God.
Sad, in either case.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Problem is, Bush isn't a fascist, nor was his father, so your whole silly argument has no legs to it.
So, if I was to claim that Obama isn't a racist, and neither was his pastor, then "your whole silly argument" would suddenly fall apart?
See, your OPINION is that Bush isn't a fascist. There are several million people out there who would disagree with that opinion. You feel that Bush isn't a fascist, and that Obama is a racist. Obviously, others could feel completely the opposite, and both viewpoints would be equally valid to those who held them - and ironically, neither would be completely right or completely wrong!
You can say you don't like Obama for his racist leanings, and Bush's detractors can as easily say that they don't like Bush and his supporters for their fascist leanings. And BOTH be correct in their assessments, at least somewhat.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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I’m not an advocate of the belief that terms like “racism” and “fascism” are defined on popular opinion. If that were the case, then anyone would be a fascist or a racist, simply because enough people didn’t agree with them. Rev. Wright is not a racist because people don’t agree with him. He is a racist because one of the accepted definitions of racism, prejudice or animosity against people who belong to another race, fits opinions he has clearly advocated. Fascism has a definition too. Fascism is an ideology that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition and extreme nationalism. Nothing Bush has ever said or done could honestly be construed as meeting these criteria. Just because people like Signym don’t agree with his policies doesn’t make him a fascist. In order for Bush to be a fascist he must meet this definition regardless of how popular opinion views him.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Jesus saves....
He passes to Noah,
He shoots,
HE SCORES...!!!
edit: photo credit to Zaius Nation (finger on the pulse of the ape nation)
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You wanna listen to a REAL racist black man??? Try and sit through this:
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
How is that racist?
Attacking Obama because his mother is white sounds pretty racist to me.
Of course HK’s statement that this is a “REAL racist black man,” as if somehow Rev. Wright is not, is pretty silly.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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auraptor, at any point did you think the effort should be made to make Bush renounce his dead grandfather for being a Nazi sympathiser?
You're right, that man being his relative doesn't make Dubya a faccist, any more than Obama going to Wright's church makes him a racist.
The argument against that of course, is that well, Dubya is a fascist, so maybe the connection applies, but I don't think you want to go that way, and you've said you don't believe him to be a fascist, presumably because you haven't looked up the word lately...
but what Sygm was pointing out is that the conflation you attempted to apply to Obama and Cone would be applicable and fair to apply to the Bush family, if such a thing is ever fair. You chose to ignore that angle, and no surprise.
I wish that once in a while, you'd go after the things you think are the strongest points in a person's post, rather than to ignore those in favor of latching on to throw-away lines in an effort to debunk the poster.
to be fair, you probably aren't alone in that, and maybe I"m guilty sometimes, but I certainly try not to be. It's just a little tiring to always have to redirect a person to an original point that was obvious, frankly.
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Quote:
Jongsstraw- The ONLY way out for Obama to keep his candidacy even remotely viable is to just come out and say that Rev Wright is INSANE. Nothing less will work, and even that probably won't prevent his total collapse of support.
i almost despise this 'renouncing' bs... why not fess up to what you believe, if you firmly believe anything, and confront the consequences? to me, its more important we know the truth, whatever it is, then whether Obama even agrees with rev. Wright. i dont want press corrections and phony apologies and renouncements. tell us the truth, so we can make a decision.. but i resent the ambiguity. i believe in fallen angels and this 'grand' conspiracy.. but i will always tell it like i see it, popular or not
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How is that racist? A bit daft, maybe, but there's some truth to it.
Um, okay, telling us that Obama is trash because his black "in-heat" father went with a trashy white woman, that Obama's character is disgraceful based on his being the product of what folk used to call "miscegenation" is purely, and utterly racist, while (and, y'know, I know this is gonna get some folk riled) the Rev. Wright's attacks on white America are really a mix of racist rhetoric and classist arguments. There are white people who have criticized our government every bit as vehemently as Rev. Wright, even on this board. Dr. Paul (rumored to be a white racist, interestingly enough) has spoken of America's "chickens coming home to roost." But Wright is not a white man, and as Obama points out in his speech, Rev. Wright belongs to a generation of black people that suffered through the era before civil-rights and to some extent are still stuck in that world.
It is apparently very difficult for a lot of white people in this country to understand what segregation felt like, and what the assumption of white cultural supremacy has done and continues to do to this day; or that white culture has been racist even though many individuals within that culture have not. Sadly, many blacks, like Rev. Wright, fail to realize that the "rich white men" in power haven't been too generous to us poor white folk either. We have in this country, perhaps more than in any other country on earth, an ethos that states that the poor are poor because they are weak, stupid, and lazy and the rich are all rich by virtue of their zeal, ambition, intelligence and plain good character. We white Americans deny class distinction (most black people live it), we deny discrimination (most black people live or have lived it), we deny that the powerful exploit the weak (ditto) or that our government has ever done anything on the world stage for less than the most humanitarian reasons.
Interestingly--though only a couple of the clips of Wright's speeches I've seen have their dates showing--interestingly they all seem to be speeches he's made after 9/11. Pretty recent. And unless he has only three suits in his wardrobe, these clips are coming from only a handful of sermons.
Hrm.
I don't know about you, but I've noticed A LOT of otherwise reasonable people say some pretty bat-shit crazy things since 9/11. A close friend of mine of some 15 years went so far as advocating that we nuke Mecca. A close up friend of MINE! Can ya believe it?
Did I disown him? Did I denounce him where he stood and tell everyone I know that he was a psychotic pseudo-neo-neo-con? Uh, no. I was pretty shocked, told him so, mentioned it to one or two of our mutual friends in a "I'm kinda worried about Bill lately" way and we kinda left it like that until a few years later he apologized, explaining that he'd "gone a little crazy" after 9/11 happened. Like a lot of us.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:So it’s okay to be a racist as long as you’re supporting a Democrat, but if you’re not supporting a Democrat, you’re just “utterly racist.” Got it.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How is that racist? A bit daft, maybe, but there's some truth to it.
Um, okay, telling us that Obama is trash because his black "in-heat" father went with a trashy white woman, that Obama's character is disgraceful based on his being the product of what folk used to call "miscegenation" is purely, and utterly racist, while (and, y'know, I know this is gonna get some folk riled) the Rev. Wright's attacks on white America are really a mix of racist rhetoric and classist arguments. There are white people who have criticized our government every bit as vehemently as Rev. Wright, even on this board. Dr. Paul (rumored to be a white racist, interestingly enough) has spoken of America's "chickens coming home to roost." But Wright is not a white man, and as Obama points out in his speech, Rev. Wright belongs to a generation of black people that suffered through the era before civil-rights and to some extent are still stuck in that world.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So it’s okay to be a racist as long as you’re supporting a Democrat, but if you’re not supporting a Democrat, you’re just “utterly racist.” Got it.
Hey Finn,
Glad to see you're still finding amuzement twirling your finger in the scum trap. I wish I had so much time on my hands that I could waste it the way you do.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:You spend as much if not more time here then I do, I'm pretty sure.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Glad to see you're still finding amuzement twirling your finger in the scum trap. I wish I had so much time on my hands that I could waste it the way you do.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:Quote:
Jongsstraw- The ONLY way out for Obama to keep his candidacy even remotely viable is to just come out and say that Rev Wright is INSANE. Nothing less will work, and even that probably won't prevent his total collapse of support.
i almost despise this 'renouncing' bs... why not fess up to what you believe, if you firmly believe anything, and confront the consequences? to me, its more important we know the truth, whatever it is, then whether Obama even agrees with rev. Wright. i dont want press corrections and phony apologies and renouncements. tell us the truth, so we can make a decision.. but i resent the ambiguity. i believe in fallen angels and this 'grand' conspiracy.. but i will always tell it like i see it, popular or not
The Rev Wright issue will go away in time, but Obama has really not helped himself through this, mainly for the sentiment you just wrote about. Rather than separate himself clearly from the Rev, he chose to offer moral equivalenices citing his grandmother and Geraldine Ferraro...pretty lame in my opinion. He also has to answer for his actions during the Imus "lynching", and how or why that is any different from the Rev. As I said before, I really don't care or even believe the "race" element here. I believe it was used by Obama to somehow try to equate the Rev's viscious anti-Americanism with old-time systemic racism, which really does not exist in America anymore. Yes there are individuals who are racists, and even organizations which are racist, but the USA now has laws on the books to protect all minorities in every aspect of life....jobs, housing and civil rights. The fringe Left is all to quick to brand people racists, yet they offer spins and dancing surrounding this Rev and Obama.
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Quote:Hey Finn, you so totally missed the point it's beyond funny.
Just because people like Signym don’t agree with his policies doesn’t make him a fascist. In order for Bush to be a fascist he must meet this definition regardless of how popular opinion views him.
Justsayin'isall.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:No. I didn’t miss your point at all. I was simply responding to Kwicko’s post.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Hey Finn, you so totally missed the point it's beyond funny.
Just because people like Signym don’t agree with his policies doesn’t make him a fascist. In order for Bush to be a fascist he must meet this definition regardless of how popular opinion views him.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You spend as much if not more time here then I do, I'm pretty sure.
You missed the effing point, you ugly minded jackass. I don't consider the RWED to be a scum trap. You do. Your blanket contempt for those who disagree with you blinds you beyond reach of even the simplest irony from me.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Eh, OK.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:No I didn’t miss that point either, but you however, have a knack for hypocrisy. First you dismiss the racism of one man because he supports a candidate you sympathize with while condemning another man who doesn’t support that candidate. And now you make personal attacks against me, while accusing me of showing contempt for those who disagree with me. When in fact, I have no contempt at all for you, other then your personal attacks of me.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You spend as much if not more time here then I do, I'm pretty sure.
You missed the effing point, you ugly minded jackass. I don't consider the RWED to be a scum trap. You do. Your blanket contempt for those who disagree with you blinds you beyond reach of even the simplest irony from me.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Incorrect and a dismal summation of my post. Not surprising.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
First you dismiss the racism of one man because he supports a candidate you sympathize with while condemning another man who doesn’t support that candidate.
Quote:I certainly don't need you to admit your contempt for me as an individual when you made your contempt for everyone who takes the RWED seriously plain in your "scum trap" post, claiming that the purpose of the RWED was to keep people whom you habitually disagree with and disapprove of (Signy, Frem, etc.--aka: the scum) from "polluting" the rest of the forum. My contempt for you is not hypocritical, it is open and direct, and to my mind, well earned.
And now you make personal attacks against me, while accusing me of showing contempt for those who disagree with me. When in fact, I have no contempt at all for you, other then your personal attacks of me.
For me, discussions with you are the scum of this board and so I tend to avoid them. I've intended to make my feelings clear since you posted your ugly disrespect for the rest of us, but I've had better things to do.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:If you want to despise people who don’t share your opinions, consider you feelings known and acknowledged.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
For me, discussions with you are the scum of this board and so I tend to avoid them. I've intended to make my feelings clear since you posted your ugly disrespect for the rest of us, but I've had better things to do.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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To get back to the original question You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright ??? my answer is NO. First of all, Auraptor doens't even focus on Wright but on another person, and secondly, I don't think meeting someone three times removed from a candidate gives me any insight into that candidate, just as meeting Prescott Bush would necessarily give me any insight into GW Bush.
So Auraptor is- as usual- creating FUD. Let's get back to the real issues instead of focusing on crappy toilet-paper, OK?
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:I tend to agree, but I don’t think it’s insignificant that Obama attended a church for 20 years run by a Reverend who obviously has opinions that are completely unacceptable, as far as I’m concerned, for an American President. And I think it’s perfectly within reason for those people who may be interested in voting for Obama to carefully consider whether they are comfortable with their assessment of how significant this is.
Originally posted by SignyM:
...I don't think meeting someone three times removed from a candidate gives me any insight into that candidate, just as meeting Prescott Bush would necessarily give me any insight into GW Bush.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Well, let me put it this way: Would you look closely at a candidates spouse? Parents? Former employers? Contributors? Staff members? Lobbyists?
I think I could make a case that any candidate spends at least as much time with these family members and associates as they do with a minister, and that these contacts are at least as likely to influence a candidate's thinking if not more so. I mean, hell, I attended a church for 20 year with the stupidest Polish priest ever. Is that gonna stick to my shoe for the rest of my life?
If you're not going to look in detail at the entire context of a candidate's associations, then why focus on this one person? I think it just panders to a secret paranioa that whites have about a "black agenda". And, like those who are STILL paranoid about Saddam's "WMD" (HA!) there is no way to lay to rest anyone's paranoia about it.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I certainly don't need you to admit your contempt for me as an individual when you made your contempt for everyone who takes the RWED seriously plain in your "scum trap" post, claiming that the purpose of the RWED was to keep people whom you habitually disagree with and disapprove of (Signy, Frem, etc.--aka: the scum) from "polluting" the rest of the forum. My contempt for you is not hypocritical, it is open and direct, and to my mind, well earned.
For me, discussions with you are the scum of this board and so I tend to avoid them. I've intended to make my feelings clear since you posted your ugly disrespect for the rest of us, but I've had better things to do.
How about looking at this from another angle. I remember the "scum trap" analogy and thought it quite apropos. The whole reason RWED was initialy formed was to keep discussions such as this from the regular board. A point that I thought Finn made quite clear. We all can wax poetic about our shared interest, Firefly, but things can get quite heated when discussin politics and the like. I've often found it interesting that such diametrically opposite individuals could find themselves enamoured of the same show, but I digress.
Instead of scaring off potential recruits at the main board, our crap finging sessions were sent to RWED where the inquisitive can go if so inclined. I believe it was more the tone and subject of these discussions, not the discussers themselves which are the "scum" that requires "trapping".
But hey, far be it for me to put words in Finn's mouth. If he actually meant to call people scum than I guess that is his right as well. Heard much worse insults in these parts than that though, much worse.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, let me put it this way: Would you look closely at a candidates spouse? Parents? Former employers? Contributors? Staff members? Lobbyists?
I think I could make a case that any candidate spends at least as much time with these family members and associates as they do with a minister, and that these contacts are at least as likely to influence a candidate's thinking if not more so. I mean, hell, I attended a church for 20 year with the stupidest Polish priest ever. Is that gonna stick to my shoe for the rest of my life?
If you're not going to look in detail at the entire context of a candidate's associations, then why focus on this one person? I think it just panders to a secret paranioa that whites have about a "black agenda". And, like those who are STILL paranoid about Saddam's "WMD" (HA!) there is no way to lay to rest anyone's paranoia about it.
Because unlike you, me, and Joe Blow, Rev. Wright has an audience. This seemed to make a difference when we were discussing Don Imus, so why not now?
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Quote:Because when we were discussing Don Imus, we were discussing Don Imus, not the girls of the basketball team. If you want to discuss Rev Wright and his audience, then go ahead and discuss Rev Wright and his audience. But conflating Obama with Wright is silly.
Because unlike you, me, and Joe Blow, Rev. Wright has an audience. This seemed to make a difference when we were discussing Don Imus, so why not now?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because when we were discussing Don Imus, we were discussing Don Imus, not the girls of the basketball team. If you want to discuss Rev Wright and his audience, then go ahead and discuss Rev Wright and his audience. But assuming that Obama follows lock-step with everything his minister says is just silly.
How about 'guilty by association'?
Obama legitimizes Rev. Wright's racism by just being there. If it is okay for a Presidential nominee it must be more than okay for everyone else.
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Quote:Because it's a stupid premise?
How about 'guilty by association'?
Or, if you want to look into a person's associations, like I said: Why stop there?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Because it's a stupid premise?
How about 'guilty by association'?
You sure you want to go down that road?
Bush must be evil because he associates with Cheney, who is associated with Haliburton. Both associated with Rove and Libby who associated with Rumsfeld who associated with Saddam who associated with...
Are you sure this isn't a simple case of see, hear, and speak no evil when 'your' guy is involved?
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Well, I see we xposted. Like I said: Why stop at one contact? Especially a contact that has no quid pro quo attached? If you're going to judge a person by "the company he keeps" then look at those who would influence that person day to day: their boss, their spouse, the lobbyists that wheedle them and the staffers that feed them information. You laso have to look at their history: What have they done in the past that was significant? Do they have patterns of behavior?
I shouldn't have to be telling you this. You're smarter than that, I thought. To focus on a single person and then blow up the significance until it blots out everything else is just hysteria.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, I see we xposted. Like I said: Why stop at one contact? Especially a contact that has no quid pro quo attached? If you're going to judge a person by "the company he keeps" then look at those who would influence that person day to day: their boss, their spouse, the lobbyists that wheedle them and the staffers that feed them information. You laso have to look at their history: What have they done in the past that was significant? Do they have patterns of behavior?
To my thinking, the staffers and lobbyists (who are open to scrutiny) are a part of the job. If ya wanna be President, you take the good with the bad.
Where Obama voluntarily chooses to worship and who he voluntarily chooses to listen to are just that, his choice. One choice that is not working in his favour at this time, be that right or wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
To focus on a single person and then blow up the significance until it blots out everything else is just hysteria.
Blowing things up is counter-productive, so is glossing things over. Two different kinds of hysteria, both just as dangerous.
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Get over it. The guy is a RACIST.
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I am glad that my family owned slaves. They helped out a lot of people. U.S.A. beats the ever loving hell out what exist in Africa.
bb
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
How about looking at this from another angle. I remember the "scum trap" analogy and thought it quite apropos. The whole reason RWED was initialy formed was to keep discussions such as this from the regular board. A point that I thought Finn made quite clear. We all can wax poetic about our shared interest, Firefly, but things can get quite heated when discussin politics and the like. I've often found it interesting that such diametrically opposite individuals could find themselves enamoured of the same show, but I digress.
Instead of scaring off potential recruits at the main board, our crap finging sessions were sent to RWED where the inquisitive can go if so inclined. I believe it was more the tone and subject of these discussions, not the discussers themselves which are the "scum" that requires "trapping".
But hey, far be it for me to put words in Finn's mouth. If he actually meant to call people scum than I guess that is his right as well. Heard much worse insults in these parts than that though, much worse.
Hey BDN,
Thanks for the civility of your comment. I too was pleasantly surprised at the appeal of Firefly to people of such disparate political views. (I remember my first encounter with this amazing phenomenon when someone posted that Malcolm Reynolds reminded him of George W. Bush. "Holy crap!" I thought, "How is that even possible?" But I was younger then...
) Few works of art span such chasms of ideology and temperament and those few that do are the great ones. While it's true that I tend to post in the RWED far more than I do up the page, doesn't mean I don't lurk up there a great deal. It's just that I've been here since we were writing post cards to Hollywood addresses and I've about said all I can about the best T.V. show I've ever seen and the only T.V. show I wouldn't feel deeply embarrassed to campaigned for.
But back to Finn. You don't have to put words in his mouth because he speaks for himself. Back in the WTF? People on here voted that Bush should be prez in '04?! thread he said:
Quote:(Slam against those of us who take it seriously.) It’s full of conversations and ideas that are more fanciful and unrealistic then probably any discussion anywhere else on the board. (Surely Finn is not including himself as the author of any such conversations and ideas.) The fact that there is no moderation means that real debate is buried under dishonesty and personal attacks and crazy paranoid delusions.(All presumably from people Finn doesn't like, people not Finn--and begs the question, "Why does he waste his time?") But it creates a reservoir into which all the crap goes. Like a filtration system in a pool, it attracts all the those people(aka: "all the crap" referenced in the previous sentence) and all that discussion that would otherwise foul the waters and eventually ruin the board completely. By keeping all the Bush-haters, for instance, (Exactly!) in this little room, discussion in the other boards can continue without that destabilizing influence...(...of people other than Finn, of course.)
RWED is largely a joke.
Hardly the neutral analogy you propose he offered us.
I was here at the RWED's genesis and I think it was entirely appropriate at the time to keep every discussion from devolving into politics (as so many did back then--anyone here remember Ghoulman?), but I also think it is a testament to Joss's genius that his astonishingly short-lived television program would inspire so many people of such different political convictions to still be hashing things out now 6 years on.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:Indeed. Then, we should look at Reverend Wright's sermons in totality, or at least take a enough of a sampling to know if the entirety of his viewpoint is represented by three words or by a quote from a white ambassador.
Blowing things up is counter-productive, so is glossing things over. Two different kinds of hysteria, both just as dangerous.
Anyone here care to do some research on Wright's views? He's written four books so - start cracking! Or are we just going to go with a couple of snippets?
More importantly, since Wright isn't running for Office, does anyone care to research Obama's views and history? 'Cause I'd rather meet Obama than Wright.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Holy crap, a preacher who's racist? No friggin way!!! Just an fyi anyone who goes to the same church and then goes into politics was zoned out during the sermons...like most church goers...the book isn't that long and it's been around for most of recorded history...That being said some points of clarification, Jesus the person most definitely existed, I'm not a christian but it has been well documented the man existed. Please try to give us posts that are NOT from an easily editable source like wikipedia, since they poster can't even spell barack obama correctly(yes I know I typing in all lowercase, I'm lazy) going on...the guy's a racist...so what...that doesn't mean obama hate whitey any more than bush not showing up for duty when he was in the guard, or lying to the american public or violating the constitution regularly...you know, actual issues... chickens coming hoem to roost? what were these ministers hungry? there's a racist joke in there ooh maybe I'm a racist, but hey I can say whatever I'd like because we have protected speech...or is it only if we agree with the speech? hate speech is dumb in general but there are asses on all sides of the issue...are there problems with black culture in america right now? you bet..it's in serious need of some leadership and role models...look up the numbers if you think i'm being racist... but again, that being said look at barack's record and if you find his actions have been racist then make your opinion on that, not some ass clown preacher who has a habit of hatred... browncoat power!!
When there are no heroes where will we turn?
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Auraptor:
As to the posted question, "You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright???"
Yeah, I'd like to. Unfortunately, your posting doesn't tell me a damn thing about him, except that he's apparently read books written by someone else that may (or may not) have had an influence on his personal theology.
Oh, wow. What a shocker, that a religious black man growing up in the civil rights era might look to sources and viewpoints within the black community. Tomorrow's headline: "Teenagers interested in sex." That's just about as surprising.
"She's tore up plenty. But she'll fly true." -- Zoë Washburn
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Quote:If any of these people are influential in the candidates opinions then maybe they should be considered. But I don’t form a commitment with my church that supersedes the opinions that church espouses the way I might form a commitment with my parents or my spouse. I’m not going to leave my wife because I discover after marrying her that she holds opinions that I find reprehensible, because I’ve formed a commitment with her that should supersede differences of political opinion. On the other hand, I’m not going to attend a church for 20 years that espouses hatred unless I have some reason to agree with that hatred. As far as staff members, contributors or former employers go - in most cases - there are reasons why a person my stay with these people despite political or social opinion, but I can see little reason for attending a church for 20 years that espouses an opinion I found reprehensible. It’s just not the same thing.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, let me put it this way: Would you look closely at a candidates spouse? Parents? Former employers? Contributors? Staff members? Lobbyists?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Hardly the neutral analogy you propose he offered us.
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But back to Finn. You don't have to put words in his mouth because he speaks for himself. Back in the WTF? People on here voted that Bush should be prez in '04?! thread he said:Quote:(Slam against those of us who take it seriously.) It’s full of conversations and ideas that are more fanciful and unrealistic then probably any discussion anywhere else on the board. (Surely Finn is not including himself as the author of any such conversations and ideas.) The fact that there is no moderation means that real debate is buried under dishonesty and personal attacks and crazy paranoid delusions.(All presumably from people Finn doesn't like, people not Finn--and begs the question, "Why does he waste his time?") But it creates a reservoir into which all the crap goes. Like a filtration system in a pool, it attracts all the those people(aka: "all the crap" referenced in the previous sentence) and all that discussion that would otherwise foul the waters and eventually ruin the board completely. By keeping all the Bush-haters, for instance, (Exactly!) in this little room, discussion in the other boards can continue without that destabilizing influence...(...of people other than Finn, of course.)
RWED is largely a joke.
So the problem that you have is not with the “scum trap” argument, but that I framed it from my point of view. The problem that you have is that I disagree with the Bush-hater position, and that was enough to cause you to become blind to any argument I made. Essentially you are doing exactly what you accused me of:
Quote:Your contempt for those you disagree with blinds you beyond reach of the simplest arguments. You’re just full of hypocrisy today, aren’t you?
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
You missed the effing point, you ugly minded jackass. I don't consider the RWED to be a scum trap. You do. Your blanket contempt for those who disagree with you blinds you beyond reach of even the simplest irony from me.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Look Finn, it's very obvious to everyone- except maybe you!- that anyone who disagrees with you is "scum". So. Whatever. You might convince yourself that's not what you "meant" or how it "should" be interpreted but most people here get what you said quite clearly.
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Auraptor:
As to the posted question, "You wanna meet the REAL Rev. Wright???"
Yeah, I'd like to. Unfortunately, your posting doesn't tell me a damn thing about him, except that he's apparently read books written by someone else that may (or may not) have had an influence on his personal theology.
Oh, wow. What a shocker, that a religious black man growing up in the civil rights era might look to sources and viewpoints within the black community. Tomorrow's headline: "Teenagers interested in sex." That's just about as surprising.
Rocket, maybe if you took the time to read what is posted, you'd understand more.
Quote:
James Cone was the first person to create a systematic Black theology. He felt that Black Christians in Northern America should not follow the "white Church", as it had failed to support them in their struggle for equal rights. Though this theme runs throughout Cone's work, his early books (Black Theology and Black Power and A Black Theology of Liberation) draw heavily on mainstream white theologians like Karl Barth (on whom Cone had written his doctoral thesis) and Paul Tillich.
As it states right in the post , Cone indeed was a strong influence on Rev. Wright's teachings. There's no speculation as to whether he influence the Rev. Wright or not. There's no ambiguity what so ever. It's Cone who comes up w/ this separatists view of Christianity, aka " The Black Theology of Liberation "
Quote:
Some of Cones quotes have drawn controversy. Barak Obama's former minister Jeremiah Wright was inspired by Cone. Although Obama has condemned some of most controversial statements of Wright as needlessly divisive and distorted, Wright's ministry is founded on the black theology that Cone helped to create
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:Yes, I think most people did get what I meant. BDN obviously understand it quite clearly, so what is your problem? I think there are two problems here. First I think you prefer to think that I was calling everyone “scum,” because you want cause to attack me sometime in future. Just as HK did today. Instead of debating the issue he chose to attack me using as his cause the spurious presumption that I was calling him and every else “scum.” The second reason is that you don’t really like that I used as my example the Bush-hater argument since you‘re guilty of it. But the Bush-hater argument is a perfect example of a scum argument that gets trapped by the RWED board. So yes, I think you’re right that everyone understood what I meant, but some of you will choose to misinterpret it for argumentative reason. If there’s anything you and HK don’t get about the “scum trap” point, it is that you continue to prove the point.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Look Finn, it's very obvious to everyone- except maybe you!- that anyone who disagrees with you is "scum". So. Whatever. You might convince yourself that's not what you "meant" or how it "should" be interpreted but most people here get what you said quite clearly.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:Quote:Yes, I think most people did get what I meant.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Look Finn, it's very obvious to everyone- except maybe you!- that anyone who disagrees with you is "scum". So. Whatever. You might convince yourself that's not what you "meant" or how it "should" be interpreted but most people here get what you said quite clearly.
It was oblivious to me what you meant by "scum trap" and I'm just glad to be in the company of scum of the quality found in the RWED. People who are looking for something to be offended by will find somthing regardless. I think there must be some past history I missed that makes some so sensitive. Your posts always seem reasonable and appropriately respectful to me.
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Irrespective of intended meaning, it remains an unfortunate choice of words.
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this whole situation would be irrelevant today, had Obama just been upfront from the beginning, and actually told us, himself, what he believes in. God forbid someone in the media ask him such a specific question as to avoid any ambiguity, but i digress...
i suppose i dont expect anymore from a liberal, unless its politically expedient of course
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Quote:??? He has spoken at length about his Christian faith, his love of the United States, his commitment to community, etc. He wrote a book on what he believes called The Audacity of Hope. So, I don't think the problem is that he's never told us what he believes in. It troubles me no end that people take the soundbites they hear on the news at face value and assume that they can form informed opinions based upon them alone. We bitch constantly about the mainstream media and turn right around and form or oppinions based on their half-truths.
Originally posted by antimason:
this whole situation would be irrelevant today, had Obama just been upfront from the beginning, and actually told us, himself, what he believes in. God forbid someone in the media ask him such a specific question as to avoid any ambiguity, but i digress...
i suppose i dont expect anymore from a liberal, unless its politically expedient of course
That a lot of people like spouting off about all this without doing 5 minutes' research or bothering to tune into Obama's speeches and speaking appearances, doesn't help.
I think the problem is that folk don't believe him, are prejudiced against him for any number of reasons (not the least of which being that he's a politician) and continue to look for evidence that who he claims to be is a big fat lie. I think our political discussions on this board and at large have devolved into a pathetic game of "Gotcha!" No one wants to really talk about anything anymore, they just want to find the magic "gotcha!" factoid that allows them to dismiss their opposition out of hand.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Kirkules wrote:
Wednesday, March 19, 2008 11:18
I refuse to feel any guit about slavery. My ancestors came to this county only about a hundred years ago from a country that abolished the slave trade in 1776. Obama's family is much more likely to have been involve with the slave trade than mine. His African born father's family could have been rounding up slaves from other tribes for foreign sale for a hundred years after my ancestors abolished slavery.
It was a huge mistake for Obama to fall into Hillary's trap and bring race into the contest. His popularity among whites was partially due to the image he was projecting as a uniter of races. Now he's just another black dude running for President.
And Yes, Cantakesky you would be disqualified from being President in my book. If you were an adult when you attended the sexist church and continued to go even after their beliefs were known to you. Doesn't mean you aren't a good person, just means you don't have the leadership skills required to be President. A leader is someone that stands up for their beliefs even when they are not popular in the group they are currently in.
Nobody is asking you to feel guilty about slavery, but you should understand that as a white man or woman you have reaped the benifits of slavery, even if none of your ancestors never owned a slave. You enjoy white privlage and your white privlage has come at the exspense of others mainly Black Americans, you also benifit from the wealth of this country which was built off the blood sweat and tears of Black slaves, to this very day you benifit.
you can't help your whiteness no more then a black person can help their blackness, you were born into an unjust and unfair system, the diffrence is the system benefits you at the exspense of others.
So even though you may not like hearing the truth, it doesn't change it, and its natural, its human nature for a person that benifits from such a system to ingnore it, or deny it because to own it that might actually mean you would have to do something about it.
Quote:
..But I find the vitriol towards him and people like him amusing, especially since the likelihood of anybody posting something like this to be listing the horrible preachings of Falwel or Dobson almost nil, even while the both of them have been so closely associated with party politics for so long. .
I too find it amsusing very amsusing
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Obama was raised by his mother and her family so I doubt seriously if he hates whitey as you put it.
but I'm just amazed how so many people are feining sudden ignorance about the black church and what it represents to black people, its always been more then a church , its been a place where people have organized politcally and socially, and techinquely a black person in American can't be a racist, they can react to racism, and they can be prejudiced, but they don't have the power to be racist, and since there are so many people on this forum who think they are so smart and so educated I would have thought they would at the very least known and understood that.
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My people were enslaved by the Romans, are Italians responsable for that since they theoretically have some benefits as a result?
What about indentured servants, what about people who worked in exploitive labour conditions? I doubt very much that any modern American benefits in any substantial way from slave labour over a hundred years ago. The question isn't economic or historical, it's day to day abuse and prejustice. It's nothing to do with what people did 200 years ago as what happens now.
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now either you don't know anything about the history of your own country, or your trying to be ignorant on purpose!!
which is it?
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Quote:
Dead serious. And what's all this talk about " use to " ? Obama still attends or is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ. And technically speaking , Rev Wright keeps being described as " retired' . He was set to retire " officially " from the church at the end of the month, March 31st. Since all this fuss exploded, he's shipped himself off to Africa, on "sabbatical " , away from prying reporters
Obama has every right to keep Rev Wright as his pastor, why should he denounce him, if thats the case he would have to denounce practically every black person in America, it would be extremely hypocritcal and callous of him to do that when Rev Wright has not done anything wrong.
you might not like what he said or how he said it and its your right to disagree, but he didn't do anything wrong and he certainly hasn't said anything new!!
I'm happy to see that there is at least one politican out there who isn't a complete hypocrite and has some values and standards.
maybe you should heed Obama's words of wisdom, when he said this is all spectle and distraction and if your foolish enough to fall for it next election cycle it will be some other distraction, you do have a choice.
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Quote:
No I didn’t miss that point either, but you however, have a knack for hypocrisy. First you dismiss the racism of one man because he supports a candidate you sympathize with while condemning another man who doesn’t support that candidate. And now you make personal attacks against me, while accusing me of showing contempt for those who disagree with me. When in fact, I have no contempt at all for you, other then your personal attacks of me.
how do you qualify REV Wright as being a racist, first off he was speaking the truth, secondly black people in America cannot be racist, they can react to racism but they can be prejudice, but racist no. also just because the man is pro black doesn't mean he's against white people, he doesn't own the church and I seriously doubt if they would let a racist preach in their congregation, Rev Wrights mentor happens to be a white man himself. you should really do your research before you make false claims and statements obviously you've been watching to much Fox news and sound bites.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:Quote:
Dead serious. And what's all this talk about " use to " ? Obama still attends or is a member of Trinity United Church of Christ. And technically speaking , Rev Wright keeps being described as " retired' . He was set to retire " officially " from the church at the end of the month, March 31st. Since all this fuss exploded, he's shipped himself off to Africa, on "sabbatical " , away from prying reporters
Obama has every right to keep Rev Wright as his pastor, why should he denounce him, if that's the case he would have to denounce practically every black person in America, it would be extremely hypocritical and callous of him to do that when Rev Wright has not done anything wrong.
you might not like what he said or how he said it and its your right to disagree, but he didn't do anything wrong and he certainly hasn't said anything new!!
I'm happy to see that there is at least one politician out there who isn't a complete hypocrite and has some values and standards.
maybe you should heed Obama's words of wisdom, when he said this is all spectle and distraction and if your foolish enough to fall for it next election cycle it will be some other distraction, you do have a choice.
I agree with you, if Obama's the man he claims to be, it would be "hypocritical and callous of him" to condemn his mentor/pastor of 20 years(or is it 15 now). The only problem is that if Obama embraces Rev. Wright, the superdelegates in the Democrat party will give the nomination to Clinton. Then all those enthusiastic blacks and young people will stay home on election day, giving McCain the White House. Obama needs to decide pretty quick if he really wants to be President or is standing by his pastor/mentor more important. If he does want the Presidency he better throw Wright under the bus now and try to salvage whats left of his campaign. His poll numbers are dropping fast so he better decide quick.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
??? He has spoken at length about his Christian faith, his love of the United States, his commitment to community, etc. He wrote a book on what he believes called The Audacity of Hope.
i havent read his book, i doubt more then a fraction of the population has. maybe, rather then read a book to find out a presidential candidates real views, they could just address them up front, especially in light of a media circus event such as this. given that a lot of liberals have a sort of resentment for American capitalism, in my mind, finding the motivation to read Obamas book is akin to reading Quigleys tragedy and hope, or some other socialist writing(not at the top of my priority list in other words). maybe im a bit of a purest, and skeptic, but i have a hard time reconciling socialist principles, with the bible, since the two are antithetical to each other in there truest forms. i am not judging Obama as Gods servant, but as a politician, since his verbage and terminology and phrases strike me as very humanistic at times. have you taken a glance at Obamas policies? i dont believe we are out of line in asking for some clarification
Quote:
So, I don't think the problem is that he's never told us what he believes in. It troubles me no end that people take the soundbites they hear on the news at face value and assume that they can form informed opinions based upon them alone. We bitch constantly about the mainstream media and turn right around and form or oppinions based on their half-truths.
i personally couldnt care less, im not voting for the guy cause hes a socialist, with the same donors as the other two CFR globalists running. the problem is, i dont believe him
and its not cause hes black. actually, his race is only an issue to the democrats, since they nominated the guy! if he were a republican, we'd judge the guy based on his merit and principles... not his minority status and cultural differences
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Hey antimason,
I was not suggesting that you shoulda read his book (topped the NY Times Best Sellers List, so a bunch of people have read it, btw). I mentioned the book to say, "The guy has even written a book about his beliefs." His beliefs are not hidden. If you cared enough to do 5 minutes of research, you could know all of his beliefs before you make comments that only express your own ignorance of the man. And by research, I simply mean googling some speeches or visiting YouTube for his many public statements about his beliefs. Why do you insist that his beliefs are somehow obscure?
I don't think it's reasonable for you to claim that the man needs to state his beliefs up front when you haven't even been paying attention.
I knew he was a member of a Black Liberation Theology church a year ago. I knew all the stuff folks are making hay with a year ago because the information was readily available then as it is now.
It's not just you, of course. There's this bizarre meme running around the interenet and the mainstream media that Obama is some kind of "man without a past," a "mystery man" which fits snuggly into folks conspiracy theories about him being a "muslim sleeper-cell" or some such utter horseshit. Jeez, this is the internet--just go to wikipedia fer cryin' out loud and get the guy's life story. The guy's written two biographical books, his past is not something the guy is trying to hide ( 
Aha! He must have written the books BECAUSE he's trying to hide his REAL past! Yeah, that's the ticket! ).
Quote:Honestly, antimason, how would you know if he had or not? Do you assume the mainstream media is gonna tell you? Where are you getting your information about Barack Obama?
Originally posted by antimason:
maybe, rather then read a book to find out a presidential candidates real views, they could just address them up front, especially in light of a media circus event such as this.
Quote:Good grief, nothing in the real world exists "in there truest forms." Not socialism, not capitalism, not christianity.
maybe im a bit of a purest, and skeptic, but i have a hard time reconciling socialist principles, with the bible, since the two are antithetical to each other in there truest forms.
Quote:Where are you getting your information, from the folks posting on this board?
have you taken a glance at Obamas policies? i dont believe we are out of line in asking for some clarification
Quote:More "???" from me on this one. I can't make out what you're trying to say.
actually, his race is only an issue to the democrats, since they nominated the guy!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
now either you don't know anything about the history of your own country, or your trying to be ignorant on purpose!!
which is it?
I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)
So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.
Which is it?
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Wacky wacky people... I have to be quick, this post gotta be typed and sent in six minutes.
Things are a bit screwball on my end, and if possible, might actually explain later, maybe.
Anyways, Billary is a cultie too.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/ehrenreich
Which evolved out of THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Liberty_League
Which tried to pull THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
And her husband shoulda stuck with humpin the interns instead of humping all of us with fuckin NAFTA.
Dude, I could give a fuck if Obama worshipped the devil hisself, I care if the man can do the job he's applyin for and truthfully I don't think he's up to it cause he's too NICE.
Ain't that a shame ?
-F
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I don't think people will stay home if Hillary gets the nom, nobody really wants to see a rep in office especially now that our country is on the brink of seriously bad economy...
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double post
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Quote:
I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)
So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.
Which is it?
I'm an American and we are talking about America not Rome, your whole post was completely assine. I should have known from that post that your not american know very little about our history...it was pretty obvious from your post that your clueless.
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Quote:
Dude, I could give a fuck if Obama worshipped the devil hisself, I care if the man can do the job he's applyin for and truthfully I don't think he's up to it cause he's too NICE.
Ain't that a shame ?
he's either too nice or he's really smart.
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:Quote:
I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)
So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.
Which is it?
I'm an American and we are talking about America not Rome, your whole post was completely assine. I should have known from that post that your not american know very little about our history...it was pretty obvious from your post that your clueless.
I'd be willing to bet Fletch knows a lot more American history than 90% of Obama's minions. I would sure love to see that debate.
Fletch, sorry to hear about the oppression of your people by the Romans. Have you ever considered seeking reparations.
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Everything Dr Wright preached was true. Even Luciferian Freemasonic preacher and diamond mine owner Pat Robertson agreed that USA was goddamned on 9/11. Dr Ron Paul agreed that US foreign policy only enrages foreigners. Which is exactly what it's designed to do.
US Patent Office agree that HIV/AIDS is a Pentagon/CDC bioweapon to genocide the blacks, and anyone else who volunteers, including my mother-in-law during heart-bypass transfusions. That's what the White House and Congress were up to while the sheeple watched the fake moon landing in July 1969. Even my own medical doctor from Africa told me that.
Congressional Record:
Quote:
DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS FOR 1970
HEARINGS BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
NINETY-FIRST CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
SUBCOMMITTEE ON DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE APPROPRIATIONS
H.B. 15090
PART 5
RESEARCH, DEVELOPMENT, TEST, AND EVALUATION
Department of the Army
Statement of Director, Advanced Research Project Agency
Statement of Director, Defense Research and Engineering
Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1969
UNITED STATES SENATE LIBRARY
[pg.] 129 TUESDAY, JULY 1, 1969
SYNTHETIC BIOLOGICAL AGENTS
There are two things about the biological agent field I would like to mention. One is the possibility of technological surprise. Molecular biology is a field that is advancing very rapidly and eminent biologists believe that within a period of 5 to 10 years it would be possible to produce a synthetic biological agent, an agent that does not naturally exist and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired.
http://killtown.911review.org/aids.html
www.gulfwarvets.com/micopat.htm
www.boydgraves.com
www.aidsbiowar.com
What's disgusting about Obama is how he refused to stand up for the First Amendment ot the US Constitution.
Quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
What's disgusting about Wright is that he runs a govt-partnered state-sponsored church, which is the real reason he was forced to resign or be terminated, since the rich deacons didn't want the Jewish IRS to end its money-laundering contract. IRS 501c3 contract requires chruches to censor their sermons. 30,000 preachers are currently gagged, er, employed by US Dept of Fatherland Security, to sell martial law death camps to the sheeple, just like New Orleans.
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2007/160807_quell_dissent.htm
Quote:
One day you're gonna tell us how a preacher knows so much about crime.
-Jayne
The Summer Glau Chronicles: Free downloads
http://www.fox.com/fod/player.htm?show=tscc
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:Quote:
I am not an American, and I know the history of my country, (well a good part of it seeing as where I was born can show human habitation since at least the ice age.)
So either you are one of those people that thinks that only Americans have anything important to say, or you simply forget that this is an international forum.
Which is it?
I'm an American and we are talking about America not Rome, your whole post was completely assine. I should have known from that post that your not american know very little about our history...it was pretty obvious from your post that your clueless.
I probably know more about your history than you do. The point you ignore is that everybody has been "oppressed" by somebody at some point, all you have to do is go back far enough. There are places in eastern Europe where there are still grudges about wars that were fought 500 years ago, Bin Laden is hung up on a Caliphate that ceased to exist 400 years ago.
The moral is clear -- you don't dwell on the past, if you do you make yourself a victim of it. No living American benefited from the effects of slavery, no living American suffers from the effects of slavery. There are a lot of African Americans suffering from things that happen right now, like petty racism and lack of educational opportunity. Those are the things we can fix, so let's not dwell on the past. The point of history is to learn from it, not to use it to excuse behavior and not to guilt trip people who have no responsibility for what their ancestors may, or may not do.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I'd be willing to bet Fletch knows a lot more American history than 90% of Obama's minions. I would sure love to see that debate.
Fletch, sorry to hear about the oppression of your people by the Romans. Have you ever considered seeking reparations.
Not really. I suppose we got roads, a written language, sanitation rule of law and other stuff out of it. The point Jenny misses is that bad things happen to everyone at some point. If you really believe that the decedents of folks that did your ancestors down "benefit" from that or are "responsible" then you think like a victim. In the end you fix what you can today.
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