Cheney says Bin Laden Innocent on 9/11
POSTED BY: piratenews
UPDATED: Monday, March 17, 2008 16:03
VIEWED: 7326
PAGE 1 of 1
That's always been one of my beefs with the whole matter...
You got one pathological liar (Bush) accusing another pathological liar (Osama) who flat says he did NOT do it...
You got a recooked and completely distorted "translation" by another pack of liars (MEMRI) that sounds like he's taking credit for it, with actual straight-meaning translation saying the opposite...
And then you got a bunch of videos of some dork that doesn't even LOOK like him, claiming to be him in spite of the fact that he capped it east pakistan sometime in 2001 via organ failure from lack of support care - and said dork offers a completely different rhetoric and angle, speech pattern and word selection...
So it comes down to two things for me.
#1 - Most of these obnoxious gits are pretty damn arrogant, and quick to take credit even for stuff they didn't do - just to stroke their own pride and piss us off, that's pretty common amongst them, so an outright denial of an incident that would have radically increased their support from their own base, that's pretty rare.
#2 - Where's the evidence ?
To date, not one whit of evidence worth a damn has ever been released to us, just blatantly fake tapes cooked up by someones intel folks, a list of so-called hijackers, most of which seem to be alive and well and somewhere else, some cell phone calls that could not have possibly been made with the technology available, and a bullshit story that doesn't fit the facts.
All the evidence available seems to point the finger at Ramzi, Emad, KSM and that whole little band of goons, who are mostly Saudis, and many of them were at one time US "assets", much like Tim Osman(Osama) was.
And when they did finally catch Ramzi after helping him bomb the WTC in 93 by providing him with an expert, the plans, and the explosives, they fumbled it and he got to actually blow the live bomb they wanted to catch him with (we'll leave aside whether that was entrapment) but they did catch him - without the need for warrantless wiretaps, with an actual, legal search warrant properly naming the place to be searched and what was to be taken as evidence.
And he spilled it when confronted with that evidence in a by-the-book non physical interrogation, revealing the bojinka plans, one of which was to seize airliners and crash them into specific targets or detonate them in flight.
If you dig on that one, however, you'll find that the original facts of the case seem to have been politically permutated into the realm of absolute lunacy - bearing more resemblence to a bad pastiche of james bond novels than the evidence seized but not acted on at the time.
So all we have is a fistfull of lies from a handful of known liars, an official story that keeps rapidly changing for political reasons, and a tiny smattering of real evidence that points to one set of our "friends" as the perps, and another set with complete foreknowledge who didn't bother to inform us even though they sent a crew to film the event on-site.
History has shown these events, twenty, fifty, a hundred years down the road, almost always have some component of internal involvement, participation, and a generous helping of outright incompetence and general cover-up.
Show of hands, does anyone here REALLY think, now, that the USS Maine was sunk by a spanish mine, or that the RMS Lusitania was not carrying ammunition, or that torpedos were launched at us in the Gulf of Tonkin, or that Iraqi troops really dragged babies out of incubators in Kuwait ?
The truth usually does come out, unfortunately too late to do those harmed by the lies much good, but the fact is, we've never once been handed any real evidence linking Osama directly to 9-11, just the usual pablum of lies, half-truths, and parroted assumptions by the compliant media, in combination with paid shill pieces masquerading as editorial comment.
"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging the future but by the past."
-Patrick Henry
What does history te
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No, he didn't. He meant Saddam, slip of the tongue. Doofus. Silly post.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Where ahs Bush lied ? Don't compare Bush to a pathological liar ( Clinton ) when he isn't. That's MY beef w/ all this, folks making baseless claims and then going off on absurd tangents.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, he didn't. He meant Saddam, slip of the tongue. Doofus. Silly post.
Quote:
Freudian slip
a mistake made in speaking by which, it is thought, the speaker inadvertently reveals unconscious motives, desires, etc.
-Websters New World Dictionary
"So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming."
—Dick Cheney, "Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow", March 29, 2006
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html
"I would like to assure the world that I did not plan the recent attacks."
—Usama bin Laden, CNN, "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks," September 17, 2001
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/
QUESTION: "Mr President, in your speeches, you rarely mention Osama Bin Laden. Why is that?"
GEORGE BUSH JR: "I don't know where he is. I just don't spend that much time on him."
"9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."
—FBI agent Rex Tomb, June 6, 2006
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
"The goal has never been to get Bin Laden."
—General Richard Myers, chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff
http://myspace.com/911pressfortruth
OPERATION NORTHWOODS - the signed confession by US Govt for perping terrorist attacks in USA
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
September 911 Surprise
http://september911surprise.com
American Scholars Symposium
http://piratenews.org/911con.html
How to mutiny during the Iraq War and get promoted to work for Dick Cheney at the Pentagon:
http://piratenews.org/pentagonwhistleblower.html
http://geocities.com/pentagonwhistleblower
Glenn Beck french kisses Ron Paul then kills him for 9/11
Bush & Cheney sued by 9/11 victims and RICO Act for perping 9/11 Massacres
http://911forthetruth.com
"On behalf of President Bush, thank you for your correspondence. We appreciate hearing your views and welcome your suggestions. Due to the large volume of e-mail received, the White House cannot respond to every message. Thank you again for taking the time to write."
comments@whitehouse.gov
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That's why I said slip of the tongue ( misspoke ) rather than freudian slip. 2 different things, I'm right, you're wrong.
I'll never understand the childish love affair of photo shopping real news images and posting phoney , fabricated info on legit broadcast images , news papers, and the like , for the explicit intent to deceive and lie to the people.
Fucking grow up already.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Where ahs Bush lied ?
260 seperate, proven occasions.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/
935 total including his top officials, proven, as of Aug 2008.
Quote:
Don't compare Bush to a pathological liar ( Clinton ) when he isn't.
Oh but he is, they BOTH are, your standard-issue But Clinton!.. defense doesn't really work on someone who hated him just as much.
So is Billary, it's not like anyone I know holds any illusion there.
Quote:
folks making baseless claims
Proven Facts, as opposed to the Faery Tales and Boogymen the adminstration has been throwing up to frighten us ever since the end of the Cold War took away their favorite one.
Quote:
going off on absurd tangents.
That the "official story" is bullshit ?
I would say acceptance of that ludicrous bit of bolus is absurd, given how likely it is to be true in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Quote:
I'll never understand the childish love affair of photo shopping real news images and posting phoney , fabricated info on legit broadcast images , news papers, and the like , for the explicit intent to deceive and lie to the people.
Why not, if it's good enough for F*X "news" and Sinclair Broadcasting, it's good enough for the rest us not, innit ?
Frankly, you sound like a petulant child screaming "no fair!" when someone has discovered them cheating and subverted it, which is, prettymuch how it's gone.
Tell me Rap - and I have been waiting to say this a LONG time, in fact almost as long as I have been posting here...
In the past five years...
How much of this crap have you been correct about ?
Versus the people you keep flaming as crazies ?
Given your respective track records alone - and based on that in spite of the fact that I know PN is bonkers, I'd still give his word more credence than yours simply due to the historical fact that he is more likely to be correct in his assessments than you are, and to quote Book...
"Now where does that leave you ?"
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Bin Laden says he's innocent on 9/11
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Can you imagine, the winner of the next election getting briefed in ( if that actually happens )
" What the fuck!....... you got to be shitting me "
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Despite the far Left wing web site's claims, not once did Bush knowingly utter anything which he knew catagorically to be false. He could have been wrong, but it's pure opinion ( not fact ) that Bush KNEW in advance things he was saying were false and passing them off as 'true'.
Bush didn't lie per Iraq. Get over it.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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This is me 
laughing at you.
He's a politician, and lying, cheating and stealing is HIS JOB.
So, really, either way you look at it, he's incompetent, isn't he ?
Seriously, do you actually BELIEVE that stuff you're shovelling ?
Cause I assure you, if you are, something I highly doubt, then you're probably the only one.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
This is me
He's a politician, and lying, cheating and stealing is HIS JOB.
So, really, either way you look at it, he's incompetent, isn't he ?
Seriously, do you actually BELIEVE that stuff you're shovelling ?
Cause I assure you, if you are, something I highly doubt, then you're probably the only one.
-Frem
All politicians lie, so that makes him incompetent ? Compared to who ? OTHER politicians who lie ? You logic is faulty.
That you can't cite a single example of Bush lying is proof enough that you have no clue of what you speak. You're simply a parrot for the Left wing, Hate America 1st cause, and not much more.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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One ? just one...
Ok, and I'll even make it a slambang doozy of a shitter, just to make the point.
"We've found the weapons of mass destruction. You know, we found biological laboratories."
May 30, 2003 @ approx 5pm EST
Your problem is that you are so wrapped up in defending the indefensible, that you don't even recognize a baited mousetrap when you see one.
Now you will dance for me.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Despite the far Left wing web site's claims, not once did Bush knowingly utter anything which he knew catagorically to be false. He could have been wrong, but it's pure opinion ( not fact ) that Bush KNEW in advance things he was saying were false and passing them off as 'true'.
Bush didn't lie per Iraq. Get over it.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
That's an outright lie, and you're a liar just like your hero Bush. Bush KNEW - because he had been told reapeatedly - that when he gave the State of the Union Address in 2003 that he was lying. Time after time, intel officers had removed the claim about Saddam trying to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger, and time after time, Bush and his people kept right on insisting that it was so.
Also, Bush flat-out lied when he claimed that if anyone in HIS Administration had had anything to do with outing Valerie Plame as a covert CIA operative, that they would be fired. That was a lie. Instead of firing Karl Rove, Dickless Cheney, and Scooter Libby, he obfuscated, covered up, dissembled, outright lied, and then pardoned Libby when he was convicted.
He's a liar. And by maintaining your position that he's not, YOU'RE a liar as well.
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'll never understand the childish love affair of photo shopping real news images and posting phoney , fabricated info on legit broadcast images , news papers, and the like , for the explicit intent to deceive and lie to the people.
And yet you still suckle at the teat of Faux News, eh? The absolute kings of pure-bullshit-as-news.
M
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
You're simply a parrot for the Left wing, Hate America 1st cause...
I love that - anyone who disagrees or points out lies and fallacies now officially hates America.
Awwcrapper, you and your beloved Bush Administration are nothing more than fascists, thugs who'd love nothing more than to imprison or kill anyone in this country who cares enough about it and the Constitution to call "Bullshit" on your petty little antics. Any time anyone calls you on your bullshit, your first, last, and only recompense is to denounce them as un-American.
As I've said before, how very fucking *American* of you. Or do you guys prefer to spell "America" with a "K" or three...
"Welcome to Bush's AmeriKKKa - now sit down, shut up, and don't ask questions!"
Go back to sucking the poop right out of Bush's butt.
M
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
One ? just one...
Ok, and I'll even make it a slambang doozy of a shitter, just to make the point.
"We've found the weapons of mass destruction. You know, we found biological laboratories."
May 30, 2003 @ approx 5pm EST
Your problem is that you are so wrapped up in defending the indefensible, that you don't even recognize a baited mousetrap when you see one.
Now you will dance for me.
-F
Dancing shoes not required.
First of all,that's after the fact of going into Iraq, so that's not a 'lie' which got us to war.
Secondly, you haven't shown where Bush KNEW prior to the statement being made that the claim was false.
Third, at the bery worst, that might be a false claim, but not intentionally so. We have found many materials which Iraq had no business having. It's not 'FOX NEWS' , but spin it away as you feel fit.
Quote:
The Iraq Survey Group, ISG, whose intelligence analysts are managed by Charles Duelfer, a former State Department official and deputy chief of the U.N.-led arms-inspection teams, has found "hundreds of cases of activities that were prohibited" under U.N. Security Council resolutions, a senior administration official tells Insight.
"There is a long list of charges made by the U.S. that have been confirmed, but none of this seems to mean anything because the weapons that were unaccounted for by the United Nations remain unaccounted for."
Both Duelfer and his predecessor, David Kay, reported to Congress that the evidence they had found on the ground in Iraq showed Saddam's regime was in "material violation" of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the last of 17 resolutions that promised "serious consequences" if Iraq did not make a complete disclosure of its weapons programs and dismantle them in a verifiable manner.
The United States cited Iraq's refusal to comply with these demands as *one justification for going to war.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213
But not the full reasons for the war.
I still await your answer.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Despite the far Left wing web site's claims, not once did Bush knowingly utter anything which he knew catagorically to be false. He could have been wrong, but it's pure opinion ( not fact ) that Bush KNEW in advance things he was saying were false and passing them off as 'true'.
Bush didn't lie per Iraq. Get over it.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
That's an outright lie, and you're a liar just like your hero Bush. Bush KNEW - because he had been told reapeatedly - that when he gave the State of the Union Address in 2003 that he was lying. Time after time, intel officers had removed the claim about Saddam trying to buy yellow cake uranium from Niger, and time after time, Bush and his people kept right on insisting that it was so.
Also, Bush flat-out lied when he claimed that if anyone in HIS Administration had had anything to do with outing Valerie Plame as a covert CIA operative, that they would be fired. That was a lie. Instead of firing Karl Rove, Dickless Cheney, and Scooter Libby, he obfuscated, covered up, dissembled, outright lied, and then pardoned Libby when he was convicted.
He's a liar. And by maintaining your position that he's not, YOU'RE a liar as well.
Your indignation aside, Bush never lied us into war. Bush was told it was a 'slam dunk' by his CIA director ( a Clinton appointee, btw ) that Iraq had WMD. Bush, still wanting MORE confirmation, went the extra mile and relied on as many sources as he could.
The Brits still stand by the claims that Iraq was hoping to get some Yellow Cake uranium from Niger - That Joe Wilson lie has been debunked. Bush correctly stated it was BRITISH intel, not U.S. , that said Iraqi officials had visited Niger. Bush was correct.
The Val Plame issue is irrelevent, as it was Richard Armitage, not Cheney, Rove or Libby who was the source. And get your facts straight, Libby wasn't "pardoned" . His prison sentence was commuted. The conviction remains on Libby's record and he must still pay a $250,000 fine. He will be on probation for two years.
kwickie, you've been served.
p.s. - if anyone is a 'fascists', it's the Democrats, who want Gov't control over private business. Learn your political vocabulary if you plan on using it here, or remove all doubt that you're an utter fool.
p.p.s. - You're ignorant and un-American.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:You know, I'd second that.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Given your respective track records alone - and based on that in spite of the fact that I know PN is bonkers, I'd still give his word more credence than yours simply due to the historical fact that he is more likely to be correct in his assessments than you are,
And PN, thank you SO much for every post you make that isn't tagged with big pictures. Makes me actually want to read your posts. And that bit about the Freudian slip was spot on.
--------------------------
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
--H. L. Mencken
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Quote:
if anyone is a 'fascists', it's the Democrats, who want Gov't control over private business. Learn your political vocabulary if you plan on using it here, or remove all doubt that you're an utter fool.
Pretty sure I said exactly what I meant. Maybe you should brush up on your vocabulary a bit - I think you've confused fascism with socialism and communism. Here, let me help...
From the Webster's Dictionary:
Quote:
Main Entry:
fas•cism
Pronunciation:
\ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date:
1921
1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
Also, to see if your current government exhibits any of the traits of a fascist regime, follow this handy checklist:
Quote:
Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
- Check.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
- Check
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
- Check
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
- Check
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed.
- Not there yet, but give the Supreme Court just ONE MORE Bush appointee, and this should be a done deal.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
- Check
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
- Check
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
- Check
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
- Check,NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Curse you Mikey, for shotgunning my fish in a barrel while I was waiting for the most entertaining moment to drop an anvil on it.
It's just too easy, some days, isn't it ?
-F
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Quote:
GinoBiffaroni wrote:
Wednesday, March 05, 2008 16:09
Can you imagine, the winner of the next election getting briefed in ( if that actually happens )
" What the fuck!....... you got to be shitting me "
LOL
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kwickie - Sorry, but that op/ed column by Dr Britt is pattenly wrong. Fascism is, as you correctly pointed out, the Gov't control of private business. It's not 'communism', which is out right Gov't ownership of commercial industry. That's where the 'STATE' owns and runs the farms, the factories, etc... in Fascism, the private sector " owns " the business, but is strictly controled by the State. The self congradulating "characteristics " you offered is nothing more than an empty list of charges the Left keeps making agianst Bush, but in reality has no basis or foundation what so ever.
Most nations promte themselves in a positive light. Uncheck
The US is the leader in Human Rights recognition. Talk to N.Korea, S.Arabia, Pakistan, China for REAL human rights violations. Fraterntiy pranks in prisons don't equate to 'human rights violations'. Uncheck
There are evil, bad folks in the world. Some of them literally say they want to hurt us. We don't need any scapegoating. Uncheck.
We have an all volunteer military, and it's the most powerful in the world. Most nations in all human history which were prosperous and strong had a strong military. Uncheck.
Like the Human Rights issue, we are light yrs ahead of the rest of the world in the area of 'sexism'. Females are Governors, Sec of State, Mayors, CEOs, Senators, etc....And 1 more male on the USSC won't change any of that. We're no where near a 'sexist' society. Uncheck
We have a free media, and one which is liberally controled. Uncheck.
What would you have us do w/ National Security in a free society, after we've been attacked on a larger scale than anyon else by terrorist ? My days aren't filled w/ fear , and that's thanks in large part to the pragmatic and serious jobs being done by our Gov't. Uncheck.
Unchekc, uncheck, uncheck..... it's a complete wash. The author , or you, who only sees us as 'fascists' because we're not commie. Youwan to see REAL fascism? Wait until Hillary or Hussein Obama become President, and then you'll see the doctors all become contractors for the State. Your lenghty list only shows the severity of your ignorance and misinformation.
You were wrong about Libby and his non pardon, but that's par for the course for your kind, always attempting to change the issue. Bush didn't lie.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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I believe we call this in the vernacular...
"Asking for it."
I'll just stand back and watch, for now.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:Quote:
GinoBiffaroni wrote:
Wednesday, March 05, 2008 16:09
Can you imagine, the winner of the next election getting briefed in ( if that actually happens )
" What the fuck!....... you got to be shitting me "
LOL
For whatever reason in my minds eye I picture R. Lee Ermey sitting behind the desk.....
I wonder how the movies ten or twenty years from now will treat these events
Hopefully someone will channel Kubrick
" Does this mean Ann Margeret isn't coming ? "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
kwickie - Sorry, but that op/ed column by Dr Britt is pattenly[SIC] wrong. Fascism is, as you correctly pointed out, the Gov't control of private business. It's not 'communism', which is out right[SIC] Gov't ownership of commercial industry. That's where the 'STATE' owns and runs the farms, the factories, etc... in Fascism, the private sector " owns " the business, but is strictly controled by the State. The self congradulating[SIC] "characteristics " you offered is[SIC] nothing more than an empty list of charges the Left keeps making agianst[SIC] Bush, but in reality has no basis or foundation what so ever[SIC].
Most nations promte[SIC] themselves in a positive light. Uncheck
The US is the leader in Human Rights recognition. Talk to N.Korea, S.Arabia, Pakistan, China for REAL human rights violations. Fraterntiy pranks in prisons don't equate to 'human rights violations'. Uncheck
There are evil, bad folks in the world. Some of them literally say they want to hurt us. We don't need any scapegoating. Uncheck.
We have an all volunteer military, and it's the most powerful in the world. Most nations in all human history which were prosperous and strong had a strong military. Uncheck.
Like the Human Rights issue, we are light yrs ahead of the rest of the world in the area of 'sexism'. Females are Governors, Sec of State, Mayors, CEOs, Senators, etc....And 1 more male on the USSC won't change any of that. We're no where near a 'sexist' society. Uncheck
We have a free media, and one which is liberally controled. Uncheck.
What would you have us do w/ National Security in a free society, after we've been attacked on a larger scale than anyon else by terrorist ? My days aren't filled w/ fear , and that's thanks in large part to the pragmatic and serious jobs being done by our Gov't. Uncheck.
Unchekc, uncheck, uncheck..... it's a complete wash. The author , or you, who only sees us as 'fascists' because we're not commie. Youwan to see REAL fascism? Wait until Hillary or Hussein Obama become President, and then you'll see the doctors all become contractors for the State. Your lenghty list only shows the severity of your ignorance and misinformation.
You were wrong about Libby and his non pardon, but that's par for the course for your kind, always attempting to change the issue. Bush didn't lie.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Wow, where to start?
Quote:
The US is the leader in Human Rights recognition. Talk to N.Korea, S.Arabia, Pakistan, China for REAL human rights violations. Fraterntiy pranks in prisons don't equate to 'human rights violations'. Uncheck
Hmmmmm... Funny - only ONE of the nations on your list is also on the list of nations on whom we have trade embargoes. The US isn't the "leader" in human rights recognistion, either. You have to accept that there are colors other than black and white, and that most issues are shaded grey. The fact that we're not the WORST in human rights violations certainly doesn't instantly vault us to the top of the list as the "leader". Several other nations lead us in the human rights realm, among them Denmark, Sweden, France, and Canada.
And I love your bit about "fraternity pranks". Just which fraternity were the detainees being hazed into? Can I pull such a "fraternity prank" on your wife, your daughter, or your mother? Please? It's just a harmless prank, right? Kinda like saying that hijackers flying planeloads of people into the World Trade Center towers is nothing more than a "prank", like egging your car. All good fun, eh?
Quote:
There are evil, bad folks in the world. Some of them literally say they want to hurt us. We don't need any scapegoating. Uncheck.
And yet, here we still are, 6.5 years after 9/11, casting around for a likely scapegoat on whom to hang the "boogeyman"
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"Mike"- Guess it makes you feel superior to point out others typing/spelling errors on a MESSAGE board, huh? WOW. I feel so small, I can't type at an advanced level nor do I always proof read my posts. I'm an inferior human being, and therefore I must be wrong in my views, huh?
Fine. You win. UR moore intllijant than is me.
Happy now ?
Well, no one in my family is a terrorist, so no, you can't harass them. Sorry. And I'm not married, pretty sure I don't have a daughter, and my mom has passed away, so please, try your damndest to do anything to them that you can. This should be fun. But why do you make it personal towards me when talking about the fraternity pranks against some dirt bag terrorists? What is it to you ? Clearly, I can't deny crimes in Abu Ghraib were committed. But unlike what happened there under Saddam, we PUNISHED those who committed the crimes. You want to ignore that factoid, don't ya? Hmmm..wonder why.
We're still in Iraq because it had nothing to do w/ 9/11. Dunno why you try to link the 2, Bush never did. But we are still looking for OBL. Problem is, he's hidden in Pakistan, and regardless if we sent 300,000 men the mountains between Afghanistan/ Pakistan, we'd likely never find him. So put a sock in the whines of " we're not looking for him " . PLEASE.
When folks say they don't like you, want to kill you, and then attack you, you're well with in your rights to go after them. That's all we've done. There's no 'boogyman' out there, just evil Islamic jihadist who want to take down all Western civilization. You seem to have no problem with that. I do.
As for Hillary's '94 Healthcare plan, there was passages in there which made it illegal for you to go see a doctor outside your designated government health care provider network. Go look it up yourself if you don't believe me. I'll get around to it,maybe, but it's not my top priority to prove to you old news.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. " m
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Cheney? I heard that guy throws puppies into volcanos. Well, I ready did hear it, must be true. Back me up here PN. I'm sure you can come up with something. The Zionist puppet Cheney routinely throws Muslim puppies into volcanos but not before forcing them to eat Bacon and putting girls pantys on their heads.
I've heard that Cheney had a secretly trained pack of demolition dogs that actually blew up the World Trade Center on 9/11. JEWISH demolition dogs (you should love running with that) complete with Yamakas and star of David arm bands, who self-immolated at the command of "Allah Ackbar". There are no actual recordings of this command because it was broadcast at a frequency too high to be heard by human ears. But there you go, Proof Positive.
The distraction caused by the attack on New York profided cover for a stealth Israeli UFO to blast a hole in the Pentagon there by freeing many captive Zionist-space aliens who then staged yet another fake HAMAS rocket attack on Israel, followed up by more fake HAMAS homicide bombings at a Seminary. 8 dead. You got to be loving this by now.
But there is more, Mao Se Dong (yes he's still alive & will live forever) living in a pyramid, deep underground has marshalled an army of lizardmen (and lizardwomen, 'cause without 'em what's the use?) that will SOON (relative word that) pour forth upon the face of the planet, spewing MOLTEN HOT GREEN HOUSE GASES right out of their a$$es causing all kinds of stuff to get really screwed up somehow. Trust me on this 'cause I know and you don't. Anyway it gets worse. The oceans start freezing. Which just Fu@ks up everyones plans. Because now instead of rising sea levels we got ice bergs screwing up the shipping lanes. The Titanic, The TITANIC for Christ sake is sunk by an ICE BERG What the hell? ICE can't break STEEL. Ice CAN NOT break steel. But there you go, one more conspiracy. Cats and dogs are living with each other. The END TIMES is here!!! The planet has gone insane. In the mist of warming we are at cooling. May ALGORE protect us. Let us pray,
"Our ALGORE who arth in business, ever to enrich your self, thy fortune come, from we who are dumb, enuff to believe your bullshit, lead us not into carbon footprints and deliver us from OIL for your 's is the fortune to be made forver."
please Lord ALGORE, may I still buy stock in you're company?
It has become too hot/cold for mee to continue... mucst find heat or cool now...wich i had waarm pupy noww, haands coold/faace hot.,..mama , ma,,ma plez
MY PANTIES IS ALL TWISTED UP!
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Golf clap.
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Quote:
Originally posted by arclight:
Cats and dogs are living with each other. The END TIMES is here!!!
Tell them about the Twinkie.
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You know, it's really laughable when all your sock puppets all sound so exactly alike it's bloody obvious.
Do you really think you're fooling anyone but yourself ?
-F
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I can see a staffer played by a Bob Newhart type timidly delivering the news to the newly inaugurated president (Eremy).
Staffer: "SIr I need to tell you about 911."
Pres:"What about 911. I know all about it, I served on the committee."
Staffer: "Um, well, sir, you see, some information was withheld. Bin Laden didn't actually do it."
Pres: "Well we know that he didn't actually fly the planes, but he planned the attack and it was his organization."
Staffer: "Well, actually sir, perhaps, you see, al-Queda..."
Pres: "You're beating around the bush. Spit it out, man!"
Staffer: "They didn't do it."
Pres (grips the sides of the desk):"WTF! You've gotta be shittin' me!"
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Veteran, that's the most inane, disconnected and nonsensical post I've read here in a very long time.
If that's humor you're attempting, it's very lame.
If you're trying to be serious, it's pretty damn sad.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Ever notice how I never respond to AuroCraptor.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Ever notice how I never respond to AuroCraptor.
lol
You want the truth..... you can't handle the truth
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
...that's the most inane, disconnected and nonsensical post I've read here in a very long time.
If that's humor you're attempting, it's very lame.
If you're trying to be serious, it's pretty damn sad.
Funny, that's exactly what I think every time I read YOUR drivel...
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
We're still in Iraq because it had nothing to do w/ 9/11. Dunno why you try to link the 2, Bush never did.
When folks say they don't like you, want to kill you, and then attack you, you're well with in your rights to go after them. That's all we've done. There's no 'boogyman' out there, just evil Islamic jihadist who want to take down all Western civilization. You seem to have no problem with that. I do.
Once again, you're lying. And you even contradict yourself in your own mindless ramblings!
Bush "never" tried to link the two? Bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit.
And then YOU try to link them in your very next paragraph, when you say that 'When folks say they don't like you, want to kill you, and then attack you..." See, only Bin Laden did those three things; Iraq never did. They can SAY they don't like us, and they can SAY they want to kill us, but until they actually DO something, they haven't really committed any crime.
I know, I know... it's all pre-emptive. Kinda like when Hitler pre-emptively invaded Poland and France. After all, I'm sure he had "slam-dunk" intel that said they were about to attack Germany...
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:
Ever notice how I never respond to AuroCraptor.
It's clear you're incapable of doing so in an coherent, informed manner. If I were you, and made such idiotic , baseless statments as you, I'd be too cowardly to respond to me either.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
We're still in Iraq because it had nothing to do w/ 9/11. Dunno why you try to link the 2, Bush never did.
When folks say they don't like you, want to kill you, and then attack you, you're well with in your rights to go after them. That's all we've done. There's no 'boogyman' out there, just evil Islamic jihadist who want to take down all Western civilization. You seem to have no problem with that. I do.
Once again, you're lying. And you even contradict yourself in your own mindless ramblings!
Bush "never" tried to link the two? Bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit.
And then YOU try to link them in your very next paragraph, when you say that 'When folks say they don't like you, want to kill you, and then attack you..." See, only Bin Laden did those three things; Iraq never did. They can SAY they don't like us, and they can SAY they want to kill us, but until they actually DO something, they haven't really committed any crime.
Mike
I'm wondering if it's your ignorance or your immaturity which hampers you most in your daily life. A combination of both, I'm sure, but does one supercede the other ?
From http://www.factcheck.org/iraq/anti-war_ad_says_bush_cheney_rumsfeld.ht
ml
"Saddam Hussein had al-Qaeda Ties."
The ad quotes Bush as saying, "There's no question Saddam Hussein had al-Qaeda ties." Bush said that September 17, 2003, after months of fruitless searching for evidence of WMD's in Iraq.
However, the full quote shows Bush also made clear that he was not claiming that Saddam had any connection to the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. In fact, he was knocking down a suggestion made four days earlier by Vice President Cheney, who said on NBC's Meet The Press that it is "not surprising that people make that connection" when asked why so many Americans believed Saddam was involved in the attacks.
Bush, Sept. 17, 2003: We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11th . What the Vice President said was, is that he has been involved with al Qaeda. And al Sarawak, al Qaeda operative, was in Baghdad. He's the guy that ordered the killing of a U.S. diplomat. He's a man who is still running loose, involved with the poisons network, involved with Ansar al-Islam. There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties.
Since the word "ties" can cover any connection, however weak, Bush was in fact stating the truth. The bipartisan 9/11 Commission later cited reports of several "friendly contacts" between Saddam and Osama bin Laden over the years, and cited one report that in 1999 Iraqi officials offered bin Laden a "safe haven," which bin Laden refused, preferring to remain in Afghanistan. But nothing substantial came of the contacts. The commission said: "The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides' hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship."
Eventually, you're going to have to face the facts, grow up and put away your childish delusions and silly make believe stories which adhere to your petty, faulty, hate filled political positions.
And I never contradicted myself. You're twisting my words about al Qaeda and what OBL said in his Fatwah, where he declared war on the USA, in the late 90's. Those comments weren't about Iraq, you feckless git.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Since the word "ties" can cover any connection, however weak, Bush was in fact stating the truth.
And you were the ones who had a problem with Clinton's parsing of words and their meanings...
So it's *technically* correct, and in fact stating the truth, to say that Bush has ties to Hitler and the Third Reich, agreed?
I mean, if you're looking for SOME kind of connection, however weak, you can find it for just about anything.
And maybe you should clarify when you're talking about Al Qaeda and when you're talking about Saddam. You tend to confuse the two, just like Cheney, Bush, and the rest of those right-win nut-job dipshits.
So is it your lack of intelligence that hampers you in your daily life, or your blinkered belief that Bush always has your back. Or does one supercede the other? ;)
Pull your head out of Bush's arse, wipe off your chin (is that drool, or something worse?), and face reality: Bush is a piece of human garbage.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
Eventually, you're going to have to face the facts, grow up and put away your childish delusions and silly make believe stories which adhere to your petty, faulty, hate filled political positions.
I will if you will. ;)
Obviously, it's my immaturity which most hampers me in my daily life - that and my inability to stand by and watch someone try to shovel shit down my throat.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
I feel so small, I can't type at an advanced level nor do I always proof read my posts. I'm an inferior human being, and therefore I must be wrong in my views, huh?
Fine. You win. UR moore intllijant than is me.
Happy now ?
Y'know, I'm fine with the occasional typo. You, however, SYSTEMATICALLY misspell or mangle the language. I'm just pointing out that, for someone who fancies himself so much smarter than the rest of us, and figures he's the only one who's right, you don't strike me as being particularly bright. Quite the opposite, in point of fact.
Yes, I *am* more intelligent than you. So get in the back seat, sit down, shut up, and do as you're told.
Quote:
But why do you make it personal towards me when talking about the fraternity pranks against some dirt bag terrorists? What is it to you ? Clearly, I can't deny crimes in Abu Ghraib were committed. But unlike what happened there under Saddam, we PUNISHED those who committed the crimes. You want to ignore that factoid, don't ya? Hmmm..wonder why.
You call them "fraternity pranks", and you ASSUME (making an ass of YOU, not of me) that they're guilty. In some Rethuglican-only-circular-logic circle jerk, you figure only the guilty would be picked up and tortured, so anyone who was tortured is by rights, guilty. So no harm, no foul.
Except that it hasn't played out that way. Some of those who were rounded up and tortured (and some of them even KIDNAPPED from foreign soil under the extraordinary rendition protocols) - anyhow, SOME of them were clearly NOT guilty. So I was asking, how would you like it if it were done to you? Or your family? You wrongly ASSUME that the US never makes mistakes, or that it's simply un-American or hateful to point them out. THAT is what makes you a small-minded little dolt.
Bored now...
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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AwwwCrapper:
A while back, in another thread, I asked you a direct question. Remember?
Quote:
Answer this: How many tours of duty did you do in Iraq?
You never answered. You sidestepped, hoping no one would notice. I noticed, and I've waited patiently for you to regale us with your tales of the glory days of your military service.
Now, I'm one-hundred-percent sure you served in the military, because only America-haters HAVEN'T served. And I'm sure you could always re-up (military slang for reenlistment), because now, more than ever in recent memory, America NEEDS loyal, dedicated, patriotic, freedom-loving soldiers such as you (seems we've recently lost a whole bunch). And if they truly love America, love their President, and support our troops, then only someone who is a coward or hypocrite WOULDN'T be in the military right now, right?
So, answer the question: what's your military service history?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Kwicko,
How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?
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Quote:
AURaptor wrote:
Monday, March 10, 2008 05:29
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Veteran:
Ever notice how I never respond to AuroCraptor.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's clear you're incapable of doing so in an coherent, informed manner. If I were you, and made such idiotic , baseless statments as you, I'd be too cowardly to respond to me either.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Ok, well almost never.
AURaptor, you think you're smarter than everyone on the board, but you don't even know how to debate. The best you do is set up strawman arguments or recite the party line. Failing at that you fall back on your one talent: stringing together a of list adjectives.
I like a man who grins when he fights
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Quote:Well, Vet, I thought it was funny.
Originally posted by Veteran:
Staffer: "They didn't do it."
Quick poll: How many here believe that Al-Qaeda is not primarily responsible for 9/11?
--------------------------
A politician needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.
--Sir Winston Churchill
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9/11 NY AG Spitzer Blackmailed in Mafia Prostitution Ring and Resigns as Governor of 9/11 Coverup in Plea Deal to Evade 10 Years in Club Fed
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/10/emperors-club-all-about-_n_90
768.html
http://www.ronpaulwarroom.com/?p=8368
Now we know why Spitzer made no criminal investigation of the criminals who perped 9/11, since Spitzer was renting $30,000-a-night whores from the Mafia. Spitzer is scheduled to resign at 7 pm tonight, and is facing felony indictment for conspiracy with organized crime.
Spitzer bribing Hillary Clinton:
http://hillaryclinton.com/blog/print/?id=5768
Eliot Spitzer and Hillary Clinton love female prostitutes, like Cathy O’Brien:
http://trance-formation.com
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“Mayor Giuliani — a former federal prosecutor who won notice for ‘pursuing’ the Mafia — had relatives linked to organized crime, including a mobbed-up cousin who was gunned down by FBI agents in 1977, a new book says. Lewis D’Avanzo, a son of the mayor’s uncle and a guest at Giuliani’s first wedding in 1968, was a ‘ruthless and widely feared mob associate’ who headed a massive stolen car ring, according to FBI documents and interviews detailed in Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, by Village Voice senior editor Wayne Barrett. Due in stores next week, the book sketches a largely unflattering portrait of the clan, depicting his father, Harold, as a hothead and the “muscle” behind a brother-in-law’s loansharking operation, run out of a Brooklyn bar. Along with cracking heads, it says the mayor’s father served time in state prison for a stickup, rarely held an on-the-books job and once was a gunman in a mob shootout in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn. According to the book, Giuliani’s cousin Lewis D’Avanzo was known as “Steve the Blond” and listed as armed and dangerous in FBI bulletins. His criminal record included a 10-year federal sentence for the armed hijacking of a truck loaded with $240,000 worth of mercury. The book alleges that he was suspected of taking part in several murders. D’Avanzo was gunned down by the FBI in October 1977, when he tried to run down an agent after being stopped on a warrant that accused him and two associates of transporting 100 stolen luxury cars. Quoting an unnamed friend of D’Avanzo, the book describes a 1962 shootout pitting a local mobster against the mayor’s father and Leo D’Avanzo, Lewis D’Avanzo’s father. The book says Leo was later sanctioned by mob bosses for shooting at a Mafia member. Leo D’Avanzo, who was known in family circles as a black sheep, ran loansharking and gambling operations out of a Brooklyn bar where Giuliani’s father worked as a bartender. In his role as debt collector, his father ‘broke legs, smashed kneecaps, crunched noses.’ Joan Ellen D’Avanzo, a cousin who at one time lived with Giuliani when he was a youngster, became a drug addict who was beaten to death in 1973 at age 34. Her cause of death was listed as undetermined, but several family members said she was murdered.”
—Michael R. Blood, New York Daily News, “Rudy’s Kin Tied to Mob”, July 06, 2000
“The father he celebrated so often was a pathological predator. His extended family harbored a junkie, a crooked cop and a murky mob wing. He dissolved his first marriage with a lie so he could appear Catholic when he remarried. The very personal jewelry his first wife found in her bedroom wasn’t hers….”
—Wayne Barrett, Rudy!: An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Guiliani, “All in the Family: Crooks, Cops and a Junkie” (co-author of City for Sale)
Spitzer's problem is that he hired FEMALE prostitututes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
Since the word "ties" can cover any connection, however weak, Bush was in fact stating the truth.
And you were the ones who had a problem with Clinton's parsing of words and their meanings...
So it's *technically* correct, and in fact stating the truth, to say that Bush has ties to Hitler and the Third Reich, agreed?
I mean, if you're looking for SOME kind of connection, however weak, you can find it for just about anything.
And maybe you should clarify when you're talking about Al Qaeda and when you're talking about Saddam. You tend to confuse the two, just like Cheney, Bush, and the rest of those right-win nut-job dipshits.
So is it your lack of intelligence that hampers you in your daily life, or your blinkered belief that Bush always has your back. Or does one supercede the other? ;)
Pull your head out of Bush's arse, wipe off your chin (is that drool, or something worse?), and face reality: Bush is a piece of human garbage.
Mike
First of all, those aren't MY words,it comes form the site I posted, factcheck.org. You're so quick to vilify and spew hatred and venom on that which you don't agree, the 'real you' is revealed, and what a petty, ugly little man you are. Pathetic.
Second, Bush is a fine American. I have major difference w/ him on some issues, but he's still not lying scumbag who bangs his interns. Now THAT's garbage.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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kwickie - I never side stepped any question. You asking me in ANOTHER thread? I must have missed it.
Quote:
You never answered. You sidestepped, hoping no one would notice. I noticed, and I've waited patiently for you to regale us with your tales of the glory days of your military service
Per usual, you have it wrong, assuming falsly. I never claimed to have served in the military, and thus never have claimed to serve in Iraq. But it's faulty logic to assume ONLY those who love America serve. Most who love the country don't serve. Only 5% of those eligible find their way into the military. Whether it's by choice or other reasons, thats for me to know and no concern of yours. However, that doesn't keep me or you from appreciating what the military does for us and supporting the men and women for what they do.
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You call them "fraternity pranks", and you ASSUME (making an ass of YOU, not of me) that they're guilty. In some Rethuglican-only-circular-logic circle jerk, you figure only the guilty would be picked up and tortured, so anyone who was tortured is by rights, guilty. So no harm, no foul.
Except that it hasn't played out that way. Some of those who were rounded up and tortured (and some of them even KIDNAPPED from foreign soil under the extraordinary rendition protocols) - anyhow, SOME of them were clearly NOT guilty. So I was asking, how would you like it if it were done to you? Or your family? You wrongly ASSUME that the US never makes mistakes, or that it's simply un-American or hateful to point them out. THAT is what makes you a small-minded little dolt.
Bored now...
Mike
And your default position is that these terrrorist are INNOCENT, when the fact is they were were taken off the battle field, fighting w/ our military. Your faulty logic - again - suggest I'm ok w/ torture. We don't torture. You know that, but that's besides the point. Unlike you, I don't buy into the phony Esquire articles of alleged 'victims' who claim all sorts of attrocities were done to them by the U.S. military.Meanwhile, you're mute on the savages who rape, torture and saw off the heads of truly innnocent people, all done in the name of allah. So, while OUR military is accused of making folks lie on a cold floor, the REAL Islamo-jihad terrorist are lobbing off limbs, performing ACTUAL torture acts on their captives, while we merely take pics of faux torture ( and yes, we get punished for that too ) Your misplaced and fabricated sense of indignation is sad and pathetic. Much like you.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Originally posted by canttakesky:Quote:Well, Vet, I thought it was funny.
Originally posted by Veteran:
Staffer: "They didn't do it."
Quick poll: How many here believe that Al-Qaeda is not primarily responsible for 9/11?
--------------------------
A politician needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.
--Sir Winston Churchill
I believe that it is possible that Al-Qaeda didn't do it.
Before the invasion of Afghanistan, the Taliban were open to the extradition of BinLaden, after a hearing where evidence to his guilt would be examined... and then that extradition would be to a third party such as the ICC, because it was believed a fair trial in the US wasn't possible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2004-10/13rai.cfm
Then again the videos of Bin Laden, also have been examined by experts and found to have been edited/altered. When asked about this the US gov has admitted to doing this for national security issues.
So, with this sort of evidence... they let OJ off
why not Osama
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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And your default position is that these terrrorist are INNOCENT, when the fact is they were were taken off the battle field, fighting w/ our military. Your faulty logic - again - suggest I'm ok w/ torture. We don't torture. You know that, but that's besides the point. Unlike you, I don't buy into the phony Esquire articles of alleged 'victims' who claim all sorts of attrocities were done to them by the U.S. military.
*MY* default position? Actually, that's the LEGAL default position that's part of what our nation is founded on - a PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Dig up the parts of the Constitution that you haven't wiped your ass with, and look it up.
The larger point I think you're missing is that, if the government can do it to "terrorist" - or terroristS, in their plural form - they can ALSO do it to any of us regular ol' citizens. We're a nation of LAWS, and those laws tend to rest on precedent - so not letting the US treat ANYONE in such a way is also an assurance that we don't treat OURSELVES this way. But you already know that.
And since when do we not torture? Waterboarding, in our own words after WWII, was defined as torture. We tried Japanese officers for it, charging them with war crimes for waterboarding American soldiers. It was used in the Spanish Inquisition, fer chrissakes!
I'm indeed charmed and glad that you've taken up your new post as Minister of Information, and now magically have the power to discern which articles are true and which are "phony" - let me guess: anything Bush & Co. say is "true", and anything that disagrees with the RepuliKKKan Party Line is "phony". Wouldn't it be loverly....
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Meanwhile, you're mute on the savages who rape, torture and saw off the heads of truly innnocent people, all done in the name of allah. So, while OUR military is accused of making folks lie on a cold floor, the REAL Islamo-jihad terrorist are lobbing off limbs, performing ACTUAL torture acts on their captives, while we merely take pics of faux torture ( and yes, we get punished for that too )
I'm "mute" on them? Hardly. I abhor torture in any of its forms. If it's not right for THEM to do to US, then neither is it alright for US to do it to THEM. Unlike you, I can often hold more than one view in my head at a time. Torture is wrong, period. The cheap-out defense that "they did it to us first, so that makes it okay" is just chicken-shit. We are supposed to be BETTER than that, remember? Now you seem to be saying that it's okay to be exactly as fucked-up as those you hate. So they hate our freedoms, and you hate their freedom to hate our freedoms, eh?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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when the fact is they were were taken off the battle field, fighting w/ our military.
Bullshit, most were just pointed out by other sad little bastards in order to either be on the pointing, rather than recieving, end of the finger, or to make the torture stop - one reason it doesn't work, since folks will tell you anythin you wanna hear and ain't none of it true.
To steal a quote from David Drakes Counting the Cost...
"Party Time"
Of course, the only makes sense in context if you've read the book, but when the jackboot comes down, a lotta folks wind up pointing the finger fast at anyone they might not like, to focus it's attention anywhere but them.
And that's just the way it is, guilt or innocent ain't got shit to do with it.
Having fun, Mikey ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
when the fact is they were were taken off the battle field, fighting w/ our military.
Bullshit, most were just pointed out by other sad little bastards in order to either be on the pointing, rather than recieving, end of the finger, or to make the torture stop - one reason it doesn't work, since folks will tell you anythin you wanna hear and ain't none of it true.
To steal a quote from David Drakes Counting the Cost...
"Party Time"
Of course, the only makes sense in context if you've read the book, but when the jackboot comes down, a lotta folks wind up pointing the finger fast at anyone they might not like, to focus it's attention anywhere but them.
And that's just the way it is, guilt or innocent ain't got shit to do with it.
Having fun, Mikey ?
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
Besides which, you invaded their country
they fought back... that makes them terrorists ?
Well I suppose thats what the Russians would have called them it the movie Red Dawn. More pro terrorist propaganda.
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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The U.S. constitution does not apply to non citizens fighting against our military in times of conflict. YOU seem to think it does. I missed the part where enemy soldiers were given free and unfettered access to OUR Judicial system. They aren't. More often than not, those attempting to enter our country were shot. They were lucky if they got a military tribunal.
We don't torture. Speaking out against the Gov'te in Iraq got one's hand sawed off, or wife and daughters raped. In N.Korea, they send you off to work camp. Weee ! Sounds fun, huh? WE DON'T DO THAT, MORON. I love how the definition of 'torture' has been expanded to cover every damn thing like not getting a fresh, clean prayer rug 5x's a day, or not having " religious appropriate " meals served..oh, we do that, don't we ? Never mind. If we're committing such an attrocity as waterboarding, it's to get info from bad guys. Info that'll save lives of civilians and or our troops. You seem to think that's a bad idea. I don't.
And yes, you're MUTE on the terrorist torturing innocents, out of their brand of allah worship. We don't torture, and you raise all hell about it, and they DO torture, and you say nothing. It's not an issue of ' they did it first', jackass. But keep pushing that non sequitur, if it makes you feel any better.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The U.S. constitution does not apply to non citizens fighting against our military in times of conflict. YOU seem to think it does. I missed the part where enemy soldiers were given free and unfettered access to OUR Judicial system. They aren't. More often than not, those attempting to enter our country were shot. They were lucky if they got a military tribunal.
We don't torture. Speaking out against the Gov'te in Iraq got one's hand sawed off, or wife and daughters raped. In N.Korea, they send you off to work camp. Weee ! Sounds fun, huh? WE DON'T DO THAT, MORON. I love how the definition of 'torture' has been expanded to cover every damn thing like not getting a fresh, clean prayer rug 5x's a day, or not having " religious appropriate " meals served..oh, we do that, don't we ? Never mind. If we're committing such an attrocity as waterboarding, it's to get info from bad guys. Info that'll save lives of civilians and or our troops. You seem to think that's a bad idea. I don't.
And yes, you're MUTE on the terrorist torturing innocents, out of their brand of allah worship. We don't torture, and you raise all hell about it, and they DO torture, and you say nothing. It's not an issue of ' they did it first', jackass. But keep pushing that non sequitur, if it makes you feel any better.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
I'm fine with the people arrested INSIDE the US, but %80 of the people locked up were fighting the US inside their own country. Such as this one who is there for throwing grenades at US soldiers
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/23/usa
And bullshit the US doesn't torture, it depends on where you make the definition, one of the thing I admire about John McCain is I think he'll put right that issue.
As for innocents... maybe try citing example, you seem to be aright with executing terrorist suspects in the US, doesn't that make American terrorists in foreign lands free game. Its their country and that makes a hell of a difference with the wrong or right of the situation...
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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First of all, get your definitions straight. Not any bloke w/a gun is a 'terrorist'. A terrorist is an individual, not a member of any regulated miitary and one who wears no recognized uniform that targets civilian and military personnel w/ out discrimination. When you say "American terrorist", I'm not sure what you're talking about. There are none that I'm aware of. Also, as for Iraq, there were many there fighting the Coalition who were from outside Iraq.
And what's a 15 yr old Canadian doing in Afghanistan in the 1st place ? Besides tossing grenades at U.S. soldiers, I mean.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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In N.Korea, they send you off to work camp. Weee ! Sounds fun, huh? WE DON'T DO THAT, MORON.
You're a liar.
We most certainly DO, do that, moron.
"Dissappeared" right to the camps, here in america.
http://www.journalismcenter.org/awards/nadya_labi.html
And a lotta times, they die.
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html
Need I repost the casualty lists, again ?
Conditions so hellish, gulag is the only word appropriate.
http://www.teenliberty.org/An_American_GULAG.htm
And we do it to our own, often for no better reason than rebellious youth.
And you mean to tell me we don't that and worse to guys rounded up on the say-so of some jerk being tortured who'll say *anything* to make it stop, and starts naming names at random ?
Cause, you know, that's what torture does, it doesn't get real information, just whatever the victim thinks will make it stop, and so we wind up torturing some nobody, for nothing, who fingers other nobodies - and we wind up torturing a lotta folk for no good reason and getting nothing in return but the everlasting hatred of everyone they ever knew that didn't get fingered and dragged off.
Shit, with that kind of policy, the other guys don't NEED to recruit, we drive the populace running into their arms because we're fucking monsters, in their opinion, and rightfully so.
And yet I bet you'd throw a freakin fit if Chavez hauled out the waterboard the NEXT time he caught american "terrorists" (as in our intel people) trying to forment revolt or have his ass assassinated like we did Mossedeigh way back when, which got us into this whole blasted mess in the first place, given that OBL, The Taliban, Saddam, The Mujas, the whole freakin lot was at one time or another on our payroll, till we sold em out when we were done using them.
Fact is, we committed terrorism against many nations - gonna invite their people down to Langley and haul out the waterboard ?
I mean, fair is fair, right, if we can torture theirs, then we shouldn't bitch when they torture ours, yes ?
Maybe you just can't get it though your little pin-head, but lemme make it crystal clear - if you want any right to bitch about what other countries do, you want any chance of being listened to instead of being the outright laughingstock you have become, we need to set a fucking EXAMPLE by not engaging in that kind of behavior ourselves.
If it weren't for short-sighted pettyminded little rah-rahs like you, and the racial hate and religious intolerance every bit as cruel sprited as the very worst islamic radical, we coulda pulled to the top, taken a leadership position at the UN, and practically taken the hell over, bending it to our ends and used someone ELSES troops to do the job... or hell, sent in the diplomats and the corpie reps and practially bought the damn place up lock, stock and barrel...
We coulda damnwell OWNED that place, and had them building statues in our honor FOR it...
But noooo, you and your ilk wanted to kill some towelheads, wanted oh so desperately to slaughter folks who's primary crime against you is having the wrong skin color, and beliveing something other than what you would have them believe... you know, prettymuch the same damn issue they got with you!
Where's the difference between you and them, Rap ?
Cause I sure as hell ain't seein it.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
First of all, get your definitions straight. Not any bloke w/a gun is a 'terrorist'. A terrorist is an individual, not a member of any regulated miitary and one who wears no recognized uniform that targets civilian and military personnel w/ out discrimination. When you say "American terrorist", I'm not sure what you're talking about. There are none that I'm aware of. Also, as for Iraq, there were many there fighting the Coalition who were from outside Iraq.
And what's a 15 yr old Canadian doing in Afghanistan in the 1st place ? Besides tossing grenades at U.S. soldiers, I mean.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
So by you definition any employee of Blackwater or any of the independent contractors are terrorists and are free game, and for the kid I believe his parents were dual citizens. Also your definiton seems to fit any of the resistance groups of WW2, did the US support terrorism back then ? hell my previous analogy with the movie Red Dawn being about a band of terrorists also seems to fit. The definitions being used here are so out of date and are being used so selectively they are beyond useless.
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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After starving Iraq, denying them access to purchase medicines, water purification equip, etc for a decade for the second invasion.... I think trying to win hearts and minds there was a long uphill battle from the start...
Maybe I'm being cynical, but I think I would harbor a grudge
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Frem, you're a liar, a moron and an idiot. Those 'schools' you claim aren't run by the Federal Gov't, and it's parents sending their own unruly kids to these places, not some Federal Bureaucracy in charge of re-education. And none of that has ANYTHING to do w/the interogation of Islamic zealots who want to blow us up, or die trying. We don't torture, and no matter how many times you suggest we do, I'll be right here, correcting you. Our guys are more motivated in getting results, positive info, than dealing out pain for no purpose. There mere option of waterboarding, which we've claimed we don't do anymore , is a ace up our sleeve I'd rather have than not. Or, to be more accureate, have the TERRORISTS believe we have. If they know we're not allowed to do more than play patty-cake w/ them, they'll feel no pressure to say much of anything, and will laugh at us as we try to make them talk. No thanks on that.
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If it weren't for short-sighted pettyminded little rah-rahs like you, and the racial hate and religious intolerance every bit as cruel sprited as the very worst islamic radical, we coulda pulled to the top, taken a leadership position at the UN, and practically taken the hell over, bending it to our ends and used someone ELSES troops to do the job... or hell, sent in the diplomats and the corpie reps and practially bought the damn place up lock, stock and barrel...
We coulda damnwell OWNED that place, and had them building statues in our honor FOR it...
Again, you have it 100% backwards. It's rah rahs like me w/ my religious intolerance ( not racial hatred, that's your dept., not mine ) that has lead to our success, and likely saved your ass from future attacks. The U.N. is run by a bunch of 3rd world thugs and tyrants, none of which would have allowed us to do what needed to be done. Example? Food for Oil scandal, doofus. You don't see the differences because you don't want to. To do so, would be an admission that you're wrong, and you're to ass brained stubborn to do any such thing.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
So by you definition any employee of Blackwater or any of the independent contractors are terrorists and are free game, and for the kid I believe his parents were dual citizens. Also your definiton seems to fit any of the resistance groups of WW2, did the US support terrorism back then ? hell my previous analogy with the movie Red Dawn being about a band of terrorists also seems to fit. The definitions being used here are so out of date and are being used so selectively they are beyond useless.
Blackwater contractors are security , not terrorists. Try to keep up. They're not Mercs who shoot civiilians or blow up markets to send some sort of social, religious or political messsage. Why are you having such a hard time w/ this ? It's rather quite simple. Same w/ Red Dawn, there the kids are fighting military, not civilians.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Those 'schools' you claim aren't run by the Federal Gov't, and it's parents sending their own unruly kids to these places, not some Federal Bureaucracy in charge of re-education.
Oh, you think so do you ?
Maybe if you'd been payin any attention you'd know a lot of em are.
10 months after scandal, problems plague Texas Youth Commission
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/1216
07dnprotycyearend.2b704ee.html
13,000 abuse claims in juvie centers
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080302/ap_on_re_us/juvenile_detention
The worst physical confrontations can end in death. At least five juveniles died after being forcibly placed in restraints in facilities run by state agencies or private facilities with government contracts since Jan. 1, 2004.
The use of restraint techniques and devices and their too-aggressive application have long been controversial and came under intense scrutiny last year after the death of 14-year-old Martin Lee Anderson.
A grainy video taken at a Florida boot camp in January 2006 shows several guards striking the teen while restraining him. Six guards and a nurse were acquitted Oct. 12 of manslaughter charges after defense attorneys argued that the guards used acceptable tactics.
In Maryland, 17-year-old Isaiah Simmons lost consciousness and died after he was held to the floor face down at a privately owned facility that was contracted by the state. Prosecutors say the staff waited 41 minutes after the boy was unresponsive to call for help.
About Martin Lee Anderson
http://www.martinleeanderson.com/index.php
All caught on tape, mind you.
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We don't torture, and no matter how many times you suggest we do, I'll be right here, correcting you.
Then correct this.
Forced activity to the point of exhaustion, collapse, and death.
THIS, is not torture ?
And I cite that it's commonplace, with a long list of dead kids to show for it.
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It's rah rahs like me w/ my religious intolerance ( not racial hatred, that's your dept., not mine ) that has lead to our success
Some "success" - we're now the most hated country in the world, our reputation is shot, our military is broken and we're in ass-deep debt with an economy in the shitter as our entire infrastructure falls apart behind the dimwits cheerleading the brawl, there's still a big fucking hole in the ground where the twin towers used to be, and new orleans looks like a goddamn warzone.
We're it not for idiots like you who are blinded by hate, fear and intolerance, WE coulda been in charge at the U.N. instead of those third world tyrants, we coulda snookered em into handing us leadership on a silver platter, and then used the U.N. and it's forces as a hammer to enforce OUR agenda.
But no, we sent in racist maniacs like Bolton and made ourselves the laughingstock of the entire planet - my problem with folks like you involved in the world domination game isn't the fact that you're there....
It's that you are incompetent, short-sighted, and stupid.
Snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory, and laid low by their own hubris and arrogance by some bunch of petty goons out in the desert who didn't even have a goddamn thing to do with 9-11...
Yeah, heck of a job, Brownie.
You ain't even competent at making your case, cause here I am dancing you in circles making you look like even MORE of a ignorant, clueless shill than you already are, while you angrily screech assertions with no basis in fact, and tons of evidence proving they are absolutely untrue.
I not only know what you'll say when I pull your string, I know how you'll say it... perhaps instead of using puny propaganda-laden feedback loops you might try experimenting with original thought for once, instead of parrotting what you are told to by folks using you and your stupidity for their own gain and enrichment.
You never do get it though, I don't mind us being bad guys - I mind us being INCOMPETENT bad guys.
-Frem
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
So by you definition any employee of Blackwater or any of the independent contractors are terrorists and are free game, and for the kid I believe his parents were dual citizens. Also your definiton seems to fit any of the resistance groups of WW2, did the US support terrorism back then ? hell my previous analogy with the movie Red Dawn being about a band of terrorists also seems to fit. The definitions being used here are so out of date and are being used so selectively they are beyond useless.
Blackwater contractors are security , not terrorists. Try to keep up. They're not Mercs who shoot civiilians or blow up markets to send some sort of social, religious or political messsage. Why are you having such a hard time w/ this ? It's rather quite simple. Same w/ Red Dawn, there the kids are fighting military, not civilians.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Wait, I finaly get it....
AURaptor is really Stephen Colbert
The handle, the Eagle thing, the brand of humor
Now I understand, you my friend are freaking hilarious... and I thought you were being serious
Great Job
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Wait, I finaly get it....
AURaptor is really Stephen Colbert
The handle, the Eagle thing, the brand of humor
Now I understand, you my friend are freaking hilarious... and I thought you were being serious
Great Job
So, when you can't respond to my post w/ anything close to substance or challenge my facts, you play silly?
What ever helps you sleep at night.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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So, in case anynoe missed it...
Our Government doesn't take folks off the street and stow them away in work camps as they do in N.Korea. Despite Frem's odd isistance of bringing up now defunct schools for rowdy teens. 'Gov't contracts signed ' does not = being part of the Gov't. Sorry, but do please take up your pet cause in some other forum, one where it makes more sense to bring up instead of one like this, where it has no place.
To the contrary, we're NOT the most hated country in the world. There will always be a contengent of little tyrant thugs running 3rd world dictatorships who lie to their citizens and tell lies about the U.S. , but for the most part, folks like us. I fondly remember how W.Europe marched and donned silly skull costumes to protest Reagan too, back in the 80's. Hating the lone super power is just a game for some folks, nothing we can worry about. Oh, and even France's new Pres likes us, go figure !
( Why you bring "Brownie" in on this discussion is another myster. He actually didn't do such a bad job, the complete system was F'ed up when FEMA and Homeland Security were tied a the hip, under 1 roof. Meaningless sidebar.....
You mindlessly claim some sort of victory, when all you're doing is repeating baseless, debunked claims over and over again. No need to reply any further. Bolton isn't a racist , by any stretch of the imagination. He simply calls it like it is. I know you'd rather or Ambassador to the U.N. clink champaign glasses w/punks who run 3rd world nations, but he's better than that. Much better.
Oh, and no one ever claimed we went to war becasue Saddam was linked to al Qaeda. So do yourself a favor and stop making an a$$ of yourself every time you repeat that crap.
Just tryin' to help out. 
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Wipe your chin there Rap, ya gotta bit of foam dribble goin on...
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Wait, I finaly get it....
AURaptor is really Stephen Colbert
The handle, the Eagle thing, the brand of humor
Now I understand, you my friend are freaking hilarious... and I thought you were being serious
Great Job
So, when you can't respond to my post w/ anything close to substance or challenge my facts, you play silly?
What ever helps you sleep at night.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
Who could possibly challenge your truthiness
The way you twist fact and change the argument to fit your reality is brilliant
and I loved your performance at the White House press dinner... truely epic
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Who could possibly challenge your truthiness
The way you twist fact and change the argument to fit your reality is brilliant
and I loved your performance at the White House press dinner... truely epic
Only you can't cite anywhere I " twist fact " and change the argument. Hell,it's Frem who is trying to distort the issue here by trying to interject private institutions as being on par with Gov't run prison camps in China, N.Korea, etc....
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Wipe your chin there Rap, ya gotta bit of foam dribble goin on...
Your inability to respond rationally or substantively save for your vulgar inanity proves my point. You have nothing.
Thanks anyways.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, in case anynoe missed it...
Our Government doesn't take folks off the street and stow them away in work camps as they do in N.Korea.
No, our government takes folks off the streets - yes, even right here in the good ol' US-of-fuckin'-A - and stow them away as "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Quote:
There will always be a contengent of little tyrant thugs running 3rd world dictatorships who lie to their citizens and tell lies about the U.S.
Yes, and as long as there are tin-pot dictators, there will be Republicans who will do their damnedest to keep them in power.
Quote:
Oh, and no one ever claimed we went to war becasue Saddam was linked to al Qaeda. So do yourself a favor and stop making an a$$ of yourself every time you repeat that crap.
You and Hero have *repeatedly* made just such a claim, including right here in this very forum, less than a week ago. One of you claimed that there were "ties" - and then mumbled something about "no matter how weak" - between Saddam and Al Qaeda which, in and of themselves, were enough justification for our invasion of Iraq.
Just tryin' to point you out as the liar we all know you are.
It is not those who use the term "Republican Dipshits" who are sullying the name of Republicans; it is the Republican Dipshits.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
No, our government takes folks off the streets - yes, even right here in the good ol' US-of-fuckin'-A - and stow them away as "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Only 1 small problem for ya....that actually doesn't happen. Ooops.
Quote:
Yes, and as long as there are tin-pot dictators, there will be Republicans who will do their damnedest to keep them in power.
No one loves his dictators more than Jimmy Carter. Bless his America hating, Nobel Prize winning little heart.
Quote:
You and Hero have *repeatedly* made just such a claim, including right here in this very forum, less than a week ago. One of you claimed that there were "ties" - and then mumbled something about "no matter how weak" - between Saddam and Al Qaeda which, in and of themselves, were enough justification for our invasion of Iraq.
Just tryin' to point you out as the liar we all know you are.
I'm not a liar, and it's clear by your inability to produce any such evidence only proves that you're talking out of your arse. The claims of any " ties " I posted were from a quote by Factcheck.org, and if you had 1/2 a brain, you'd use the link I provided and read the damn words for yourself, instead of accusing me of 'lying' again, Moron.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Come on Kwicko,
He cant be serious, either he doesn't read the news or he ignores the news that doesn't fit his reality,
or he is really Stephen Colbert
I mean even Faux news stopped pretending that Blackwater hasn't committed atrocity's in Iraq and Afganistan, or that " Brownie " did a good job in New Orleans.
Personally I think Mr Colbert is playing with you
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Gino, you and kwickie both know I'm right, or else you'd have debunked what I said. Instead, all you've done is act indignant, act silly and ( in kwickie's case ) hurl out vulgarities and insults.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Gino, you and kwickie both know I'm right, or else you'd have debunked what I said. Instead, all you've done is act indignant, act silly and ( in kwickie's case ) hurl out vulgarities and insults.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
alright....... fine then
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7039912.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7046272.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/03/brown.fema.emails/
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/13/khadr-interrogators.html
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Quote:
Your inability to respond rationally or substantively save for your vulgar inanity proves my point. You have nothing.
No sense trying to salvage it now, not after being publicly lead around the thread spitting and spewing, practically foaming at the mouth like an angry bull chasing the matadors cape.
I told you to dance for me, and you did, and your own commentary in response to the evidence I gave proves without a doubt you were so angry at having your pathetic little faery tales blown up that you didn't even glance at it before making such clueless statements of denial in the face of outright facts - so enraged that in your primal hammering of the keyboard in desperate flailing response you managed to stoop even below your usual low standards of the use of english.
So having realized you were just had, now you go to your fallback position of demanding "proof", none of which will ever be good enough, since you'll either outright deny it or pick it at in attempts to change the subject or cause thread drift - anything at all to avoid the topic at hand, and especially your own actions revealing the hateful and malicious ignorance that is all your blind faith has ever succeeded in obtaining for you.
And the hell of it is that I can't even feel sorry for you, cause you and yours are a threat to me, to my personhood, to everything that makes america better than some pathetic third world junta.
(but not for long if y'all have your way about it!)
I just like to bait you into revealing your true colors so that folk know what kind of a mental sewer those opinions you keep expressing as facts come from.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Gino,
Do you think mere facts are going to change Rap's mind ? He's too far gone for that - he's above them. He knows.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Frem - that you can't offer up any proof to support your claims is, by no means, an 'out' for your case. You can post from here 'til eternity on the flaws of my character, as you see them,while you dance around the primary issues, but all that does is speak poorly of you. The more you dodge, obfuscate and hurl empty , vile insults only proves my point.
But thanks for playing.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Gino,
Do you think mere facts are going to change Rap's mind ? He's too far gone for that - he's above them. He knows.
"
Facts I'd appreciate. However, superfluous links to the same story, and none of which supports the initial claims may look impressive, but in reality are a waste of my time and tells me that this has become a pissing match where the other side has run dry, long ago. I'm sure you'll keep the insults coming though, because that's the 1 thing you WON'T run out of, unlike your so called 'facts', aka - diversions from the issues.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Oh wait ! You mean NEWS articles about Blackwater doing what you say it doesn't do aren't facts ? Well then ! I'm glad you've let us in to your (c)Rap definitions - so now we know !
Why don't YOU try addressing the many links provided ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Gino,
Do you think mere facts are going to change Rap's mind ? He's too far gone for that - he's above them. He knows.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
No I'm convinced AURaptor is the internet handle for comedian Steven Colbert and he is just messing with all of us...
Nobody has had such blind devotion to their leader since 1942...
The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
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Indeed - I posted facts, you were too busy foaming at the mouth to read em, as was, again, obvious by your commentary.
If you can't be bothered to read the evidence already given to you, don't go asking for more.
I show you a list of incidents in state-owned, state-run facilities, and you say there aren't any such things, proving you didn't even glance at it - Martin Lee Anderson died in a state run facility, under conditions which could only be considered torture, then those involved tried to lie about it, and even when caught having done it, AND lying about it, when someone swiped the security cam tape and put it in the hands of the media, still got off scot-free.
Florida, in response to public outcry, closed those camps in 2006 and then re-opened them under the STAR program, largely a PR move since the STAR camps operate in the same fashion, same buildings, using the same personnel, just business as usual, once the heat is off.
It's a shell game, when caught out or investigated, they close up shop for a week or so, and change the name and incorporation, then go right back to what they were doing - whether they be state owned and run, contracted by the state, or private, the game is always the same.
Ain't just me in their case anymore either, now that their cover has been blown.
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/edlabor_dem/rel101007b.html
The GAO hopes to have a full report by mid-2008 but this has been slowed by some unrelated political issues leading to several resignations and the hassle of assigning new folk and getting them up to speed.
Not that you care about all that, but what it does do is blow up your assertion that we don't torture people - we torture teens, every day, often for naught more than youthful rebellion.
Knowing that, do you really think I give any credence to claims that we don't torture suspected militants at Gitmo, especially when there's pictures and video from Abu Gharib showing that we damn well do anywhere else ?
Not to mention the freakin Red Cross busted our chops for conditions there, violations of treaties we signed (thus making them equal to the US Constitution itself in authority) barring mistreatment of prisoners, flagrant violations of medical and legal ethics, and abusive interrogation tactics, aka, torture.
Read the freakin ICRC report why don't you ?
Till you have, and can prove it, don't go askin for more evidence just to waste peoples time attempting to cure your preciously-held ignorance.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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The lengths you folks go to in order to stretch facts so they'll fit your preconceived notions is enough to make a rubber tree shiver. Juvenile detention centers for ill tempered kiddies equates, in YOUR world, to N.Korea or Chinese work camps, where 1000's of people from all walks of life are taken off the streets or out of their homes to be sent away and 're-educated' or worse. All for the crime of speaking out against the State ?
Wow. I got nothin else to say on that matter. Oh, yeah I do...I don't fucking care about Juvie hall camps! Expose them all and bring justice to the kids, but that's not the issue here! It's not relevent to the discussion at hand, ok ? Jesus fucking christ....keep your Quixotic crusade to yourself, or make another thread , what ever it takes...I don't give a rats ass. It's not apple to apples. You're not dealing w/ US Military and those detainees aren't al Qaeda jihadist. There's a HUGE difference between problem kids and deovted terrorists for Allah.
I don't care if you connect dots from randomly selected points and draw your own conclusion. Abu Ghraib, we had a few bad seeds in there who got caught and punished, and rightfully so. That's NOT the norm for how we treat prisoners, nor is it ANYTHING like what happens down at Gitmo. Kwickie claims we "grab U.S. citizens off the streets" here in the US and sends 'em down to Gitmo. Where's the evidence? Nothing to support that claim as of yet.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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If it was JUST Abu Ghraib - and not also Bagram and GITMO and dozens of other places in Afghanistan and Iraq (for which I've posted article on article in the past) - and if there weren't hand-signed letters from Rumsfeld posted on the walls in those places actually authorizing extreme measures (also in articles I've posted in the past) - and if there weren't articles about secret prisons within GITMO - maybe you'd have a point. But you don't.
So go 
yourself. It's the only nice thing I'm going to wish for you today.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If it was JUST Abu Ghraib - and not also Bagram and GITMO and dozens of other places in Afghanistan and Iraq (for which I've posted article on article in the past) - and if there weren't hand-signed letters from Rumsfeld posted on the walls in those places actually authorizing extreme measures (also in articles I've posted in the past) - and if there weren't articles about secret prisons within GITMO - maybe you'd have a point. But you don't.
So go
You gotta stop believing that shit you read on Moveon.org and DU.COM. Seriously, you're living in an alternate reality that isn't founded in fact.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Did you have a nice fuck ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Did you have a nice fuck ?
And you wonder why no one takes you seriously ?
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Okay, I'm going to jump in with my 2.5 cents worth here.
I do not like either the Republicans or the Democrats. I have been critical of every administration since Nixon took office (only because that is when I became politically aware) and remarkably find the Carter administration the least offensive because it accomplished less during it's time in power. I'm an equal opportunity protester and think it is the ultimate act of patriotism to object when the government in power takes actions that move away from the democratic ideals this country was founded on.
Which means I have been called un-American by those both on the left and right. I no longer bother to take offense.
Here are my points:
1) The airborne assault of 9/11 was the first successful coordinated attack on our country by a foreign based criminal organization in 225 years of existence, and resulted in just over 3000 deaths. (I'm not denying the embassy bombings by al-Qaeda in 1998 or the U.S.S. Cole bombing in 2000 ... I'm just talking about coordinated attacks on U.S. soil.) These were not the actions of a country or political group. They were crimes committed by criminals. Yet as a result of those criminal actions we have launched "The War on Terrorism", invaded 2 countries, overthrown a government and have no exit strategy or the promise of a stable, locally supported government surviving in either nation.
I'll pull the following numbers from Wikipedia while openly acknowledging that this is no more reliable a news source than CNN or Fox News, but even if the numbers are wildly off, the most extreme estimate of how much lower they should be would still make my point:
Afghanistan -
Afghan security forces:
~5,820 killed
Northern Alliance:
~200 killed
Coalition:
~760 killed
Contractors
~83 Killed In Action
Civilian dead (estimated):
~ 7,300-14,000
Iraq -
Iraqi combatant dead (invasion period)(estimated): ~7,600-10,800
Insurgents dead (post-Saddam):
~19,429 per U.S. military (22 September 2007)
Iraqi Security Forces (post-Saddam, Coalition allies) Police/military killed:
~10,020
Coalition dead:
~(3,987 US, 175 UK, 133 other)~ Total 4,293
Contractors dead:
~(US 236) ~Total 1,019
===============================
All Iraqi violent deaths (survey by Opinion Research Business) as of August 2007:
~ 1,033,000
OR
Total deaths (all excess deaths) (survey by Johns Hopkins / Lancet) - As of June 2006:
~ 654,965 **
OR
All Iraqi violent deaths (survey by Iraqi Health Ministry for the World Health Organization) as of June 2006:
~ 151,000
**Total deaths include all additional deaths due to increased lawlessness, degraded infrastructure, poorer healthcare, etc.
===============================
Point is, no matter which numbers you add up or how much you change those numbers to match your position in the argument, that's a lot of death dealing for our 3000 lost souls. Especially when you take into account that very few of those victims on any side had any real relationship to the 9/11 attack at all.
2) One foreign based coordinated criminal attack on our shores in 225 years resulting in roughly 3000 deaths means an average of 13.3 deaths per year. Over the time span of 1997 to 2006, the number of instances of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in the United States was 164,903. In 2001, when foreign criminals hijacked 4 planes and causes approxamately 3000 deaths, local based criminals caused 15,980 deaths (according to U.S. Department of Justice statistics). With a population of just under 285 million people in this country at the time, that means that your chances that year of dying from a foreign based criminal terrorist attack were 0.00105%, but your chances of dying from a locally based criminal attack were 0.005611%. So if my government wants to spend nine billion dollars ($9,000,000,000.00) per month to keep me safe, they should pour it all into local and federal law enforcement, not pissing it away halfway around the globe!
3) The conservative position has always been to let businesses reg
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Rap
If you had reads any of the posts I referred to you would have known that they didn't come from Moveon (MoveOn doesn't do news) or DU.com (whatever that is).
But you NEVER discuss facts with --- anyone. So really, why should I try with you ?
So why don't you do something useful like a good little boy and go yourself, again.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap
If you had reads any of the posts I referred to you would have known that they didn't come from Moveon (MoveOn doesn't do news) or DU.com (whatever that is).
But you NEVER discuss facts with --- anyone. So really, why should I try with you ?
So why don't you do something useful like a good little boy and go
I discuss ONLY facts. Unlike you.In the 5 post I count by you in this thread, you offer up exactly zero facts, just wild accusations which aren't cited or sourced. Instead, you waste time and board space w/ juvenile vulgarities which avoid the issue and show your lack of mental capacity. Your last 3 post are nothing but cries for help instead of attempts to discuss anything of substance.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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You can discuss these - at your leisure ..
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
http://myspace.com/911pressfortruth
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2004-10/13rai.cfm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/23/usa
http://www.journalismcenter.org/awards/nadya_labi.html
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html
http://www.teenliberty.org/An_American_GULAG.htm
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/1216
07dnprotycyearend.2b704ee.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080302/ap_on_re_us/juvenile_detention
http://www.martinleeanderson.com/index.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7039912.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7046272.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/03/brown.fema.emails/
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/13/khadr-interrogators.html
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/edlabor_dem/rel101007b.html
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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From the top, 1st link
Tony Snow asks the question of Vice President Cheney...
Q - " the White House has never argued that Saddam was directly involved in September 11th, correct? "
Quote:
A - "So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming. But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization" - V.P. Cheney
This directly contradicts the theme of this thread, and Cheney's remarks fall in line w/ exactly what I've stated all along. Thanks for citing evidence which backs up my point of view.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Bush, reacting to why he doesn't obsess over UBL every waking moment of every day
" The idea of focusing on one person is uh..it really indicates the people don't understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than 1 person, and he's a person who has been marginalized... "
It's clear to me that Bush thinks UBL has been knocked down a few pegs, is on the run and while we'll get to him eventually, Bush isn't going to build up the myth of Usama by stressing over him at each and every turn. It's a smart tactical play on Bush's part, to minimalize UBL's importance to the public, while still hunting for him behind the scenes.
Again, another one of your links clearly defines and supports my point of view. Bravo.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Okay, I get that my post was a little off topic, and that explains why it is being ignored.
But I'd just like to ask RAP two questions.
How did this administration convince you that terrorists are such a big scary threat to you?
You do realize your chances of being killed in a car crash or a household accident are much greater than the possibility that terrorists can threaten you (and I'm talking about the time before the war on terror supposedly started making us all safer), don't you?
Blane
=======================
"Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they’ll swing back to the belief that they can make people… better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds
"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." - Edmund Burke
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Quote:
Originally posted by blanetalk:
Okay, I get that my post was a little off topic, and that explains why it is being ignored.
But I'd just like to ask RAP two questions.
How did this administration convince you that terrorists are such a big scary threat to you?
It didn't need to be convince me. I saw what happened on 9/11. I saw what happened in NYC, etc... Living near Atlanta, it's very noticable when there are no planes in the sky. None at all. Also, I realize the importance of helping those who I'll never meet, be they in NYC after a terrorist attack, or in S.E.Asia, after a tsunami.
Quote:
You do realize your chances of being killed in a car crash or a household accident are much greater than the possibility that terrorists can threaten you (and I'm talking about the time before the war on terror supposedly started making us all safer), don't you?
Blane
That's more of a statement than a question, so I don't know how to answer, other than this.... it's not about my PERSONAL safety. It's about stoping evil when/ where we can. Something so premeditated as terrorism affects all humanity, all of civilization, not just those who died or were injured. Accidents are one thing, but it's ridiculous to compare any accident to an overt , intentional act of terrorism, murder, etc. If people stood by and did nothing in the face of terrorism, we'd still have blacks being lynched here in the South. But folks stood up to the violence and threats, and if we did more of the same today, we could do even more good.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Originally posted by AURaptor:
That's more of a statement than a question, so I don't know how to answer, other than this.... it's not about my PERSONAL safety. It's about stoping evil when/ where we can. Something so premeditated as terrorism affects all humanity....
but dont you see, the great flaw in this line of thinking is that you CAN stop this by conventional means.. its akin to pre-empting a car accident or lighting strike. the risk is disproportionate in relation to the hype that your side is issuing. however, because of our intervention, we are setting ourselves up for something that never had to be..
the solution is not "regime change", intervention, and increased (world)policement. that is what causes the resentment towards us, that later results in an individual criminal attack
for example, let me give you a hypothetical:
i am a young college student, mentally unstable, suicidal with a lot of resentment, and dangerous. for whatever reason, i am motivated to commit a suicide/homicide event among my classmates. i could hop on the internet and find 100k ways to do this, including homemade bombs and chemical weapons. i choose my method, get to campus, and murder untold amounts of people
in your opinion, is there any circumstance under which ANY authority might have prevented this criminal attack?
if i commit myself to death, there is no way i can fail. the government is useless in this instance, absent complete tyranny and authoritarianism. this kind of "terror" attack can ONLY be prevented by friends, family, the co-workers.. people who can appeal to this person emotionally or reasonably. you could argue that this is the only defense against criminal activity, is obedience to morality. we need to recognize that this is a spiritual battle going on
the only type of "terror" attack that can be prevented are those organized by intelligence or xyz conspirator groups, who may be working on behalf of larger interests, in the business of international espionage etc. 9/11 qualifies, because the "coincidences" are untold and increasingly profound; and it never would have happened, had the CIA, the whitehouse, the Pentagon, the FAA, NORAD not been too complicit, negligent, or too incompetent to do their jobs right. and, some would argue it conveniently benefited a certain neo-agenda to prevent Saddam from switching over to the EURO..
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Something so premeditated as terrorism affects all humanity...., all of civilization, not just those who died or were injured. Accidents are one thing, but it's ridiculous to compare any accident to an overt , intentional act of terrorism, murder, etc. If people stood by and did nothing in the face of terrorism, we'd still have blacks being lynched here in the South. But folks stood up to the violence and threats, and if we did more of the same today, we could do even more good.
its a moral issue Rap.. not something we're going to solve by ramming our tanks and destroyers in their faces and overthrowing elected governments
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Rap, well, I was making the statistical analysis on accidents to make it personal to you. But in point of fact, in my previous post I proved statistically that any human being living in this country is much more in danger from the "premeditated terrorism" perpetrated on a daily basis in this country from local criminals than from foreign criminal organizations who, except for one notable exception, have not been able to do jack to us. People in NYC, Atlanta, Houston or anywhere else in this country face real danger every day.
YOU SAID, "Accidents are one thing, but it's ridiculous to compare any accident to an overt , intentional act of terrorism, murder, etc. If people stood by and did nothing in the face of terrorism, we'd still have blacks being lynched here in the South. But folks stood up to the violence and threats, and if we did more of the same today, we could do even more good."
I agree. So to me that means that we stop spending nine billion dollars a month fighting "terrorists" who managed to kill 3000 people one time in this country and pour it into our law enforcement system to help prevent the more than 15,000 murders that happen in this country each year. That is a greater danger. I'm not worried about al-Qaeda when my girlfriend can't feel safe walking down the street at night.
The fearmongering this administration had promulgated is misplaced. In the big picture, the terrorists are not as big a danger to people as many other more mundane evils.
But the administration just needed a new Boogie Man since the Communists are no longer a credible threat, eh?
Blane
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"Sure as I know anything I know this, they will try again. Maybe on another world, maybe on this very ground swept clean. A year from now, ten, they’ll swing back to the belief that they can make people… better. And I do not hold to that. So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Malcolm Reynolds
"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." - Edmund Burke
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Originally posted by blanetalk:
1) The airborne assault of 9/11 was the first successful coordinated attack on our country by a foreign based criminal organization in 225 years of existence, and resulted in just over 3000 deaths. (I'm not denying the embassy bombings by al-Qaeda in 1998 or the U.S.S. Cole bombing in 2000 ... I'm just talking about coordinated attacks on U.S. soil.)
I think you have pretty well spelled out why we have something to fear from Al-qaeda. It has nothing to do with the Bush administration, it has to do with the Al-qaeda's own threats and actions. The fact that they did pull off the attacks you mentioned and have promised more is enough reason to react offensively to stop future attacks.
You also make a typical false connection between the war in Iraq and 911. The war in Iraq has been going on since Desert Storm in 1991 and the second invasion was more because of Saddam's firing on our airplanes in the no fly zone and breaking the agreement he made to end the 1991 conflict. The only 911 connection to the Iraq war is the need to show both the terrorists and the dictator thugs that support them that they won't be allowed to attack the US with impunity in the future. Recent statements by Bin Laden and the fact the Libya gave up WMDs are evidence that they got the message.Quote:
Afghanistan -
Afghan security forces:
~5,820 killed
Northern Alliance:
~200 killed
Coalition:
~760 killed
Contractors
~83 Killed In Action
Civilian dead (estimated):
~ 7,300-14,000
Iraq -
Iraqi combatant dead (invasion period)(estimated): ~7,600-10,800
Insurgents dead (post-Saddam):
~19,429 per U.S. military (22 September 2007)
Iraqi Security Forces (post-Saddam, Coalition allies) Police/military killed:
~10,020
Coalition dead:
~(3,987 US, 175 UK, 133 other)~ Total 4,293
Contractors dead:
~(US 236) ~Total 1,019
==============================
2) One foreign based coordinated criminal attack on our shores in 225 years resulting in roughly 3000 deaths means an average of 13.3 deaths per year. Over the time span of 1997 to 2006, the number of instances of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in the United States was 164,903.
While the legitimate statistics(second set of stats are bogus) you gave are regrettable, in your own words you demonstrate that they're not as impressive as violent deaths in the US. I'd also throw in automobile deaths and deaths due to medical mistakes. People who claim to look at the statistics should by your reasoning be much more concerned about preventable accidental deaths than the deaths due to war. I don't remember anyone posting a thread lamenting the auto related deaths in the US. Quote:
5) Has Bush stubbornly refused to acknowledge making bad judgements when the majority of public opinion is calling him on it?
Bush's stubbornness is the only reason we are currently on track to win the war in Iraq. Though I do give the surge some credit for speeding up our inevitable victory, the Iraqis turning against a Al-qaeda and high casualties among Sadr's militia are the primary reason things have turned in our favor. Bush listened to the Generals, who told him that it takes a long time and persistent effort to defeat an insurgency.
Your boogie man argument does have some merit, but the while you see an attempt to scare the American people, I see an attempt to keep the easily distracted American people from losing focus and allowing another more catastrophic event to occur due to lack of vigilance.
Also, nice to see a new name in the RWED. You make some excellent points and your tone is refreshing to hear in RWED.
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KIRKULES, thank you for the courteous acknowledgment. I may argue a point vehemently, as I rarely bother posting about a subject unless I feel passionately about it, but I always mean to do so respectfully and intelligently.
I actually did not spell out what we have to fear from al-Qaeda ... I was asking why our reaction was so disproportionate in the grand scale of things compared to the small (significant yes, but small) amount of damage they have done to us. The amount of danger they pose to us compared to many other internal and external threats is minimal. So when you make the statement that al-Qaeda should be feared greatly for the one attack they successfully pulled off and the other ones they have threatened, I would ask you to put it in perpective. They got lucky once.
Our normal national security up until 9/11 was sufficient to prevent all previously threatened actions by them. The 9/11 attacks were preventable simply if the airlines had done their job better. For fear of that one event happening again I for one am not willing to give away my democratic rights, have my country become an international bully and embrace tactics that this administration and the CIA find perfectly acceptable but international experts and John McCain declare to be torture (yes, I'm talking about water boarding to mention just one tactic that has been acknowledged by both sides of the argument.) This administration has spread the message of "terror" quite effectively, and you can convince people to give up many things they shouldn't give up when they are afraid. I'm not saying the bombings of 9/11 weren't scary, tragic and abhorrent. I'm just saying the government and it's apologists have driven the drumbeat of fear mongering far beyond what is appropriate to the threat of this particular "villain", particularly in perspective to other threats in this world (domestic crime, North Korea and Pakistan's nuclear ambitions, China's growing global economic impact ... etc.)
You make a good point about the frequently discussed relationship or lack thereof between the 9/11 attacks by al-Qaeda and the second invasion of Iraq. This ignores the fact that I did also talk about Afghanistan, but I'll go with your argument. Why did we not attack Iraq in the year and a half prior to 9/11? The conditions were the same, we could have justified the "war" at that time for the same rationale that was eventually used. No, the administration saw the timing was right, and after swelling our nation's populace with fear over the drama of "terror" they were able to get politicians and the public to agree to something they wouldn't have agreed to beforehand; a new invasion of Iraq without the support of the majority of our allies worldwide.
By the way, the rest of the world was right on that one. It is arrogance of a nature I do not comprehend or condone that says since we're the United States - home of the free and land of the brave - we should be the world's policemen even when the world doesn't want us involved, just because we have the economic might and military prowess to do so.
Finally, your assertion that we are on track to win had me laughing sardonically all night. You have the President's brand of myopia to think that anything near a victory in Iraq is within our grasp any year soon. You remember when our president posed in front of the banner reading "Mission Accomplished" on board the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln on 5-1-03, right? That's the kind of myopia I'm talking about. I'll quote two things from the President's speech on that day that bother me, and I understand this is taken out of context, but perspective is really what this is all about and I'll illuminate that point in just a moment. Quote # 1: "In the Battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." Quote # 2: "Our mission continues...The War on Terror continues, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide."
Both of these statement present a "rose-colored glasses" point of view regarding th
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