Cheney says Bin Laden Innocent on 9/11

POSTED BY: piratenews
UPDATED: Monday, March 17, 2008 16:03
VIEWED: 7326
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FREMDFIRMA

Friday, March 14, 2008 4:46 PM

Indeed - I posted facts, you were too busy foaming at the mouth to read em, as was, again, obvious by your commentary.

If you can't be bothered to read the evidence already given to you, don't go asking for more.

I show you a list of incidents in state-owned, state-run facilities, and you say there aren't any such things, proving you didn't even glance at it - Martin Lee Anderson died in a state run facility, under conditions which could only be considered torture, then those involved tried to lie about it, and even when caught having done it, AND lying about it, when someone swiped the security cam tape and put it in the hands of the media, still got off scot-free.

Florida, in response to public outcry, closed those camps in 2006 and then re-opened them under the STAR program, largely a PR move since the STAR camps operate in the same fashion, same buildings, using the same personnel, just business as usual, once the heat is off.

It's a shell game, when caught out or investigated, they close up shop for a week or so, and change the name and incorporation, then go right back to what they were doing - whether they be state owned and run, contracted by the state, or private, the game is always the same.

Ain't just me in their case anymore either, now that their cover has been blown.
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/edlabor_dem/rel101007b.html

The GAO hopes to have a full report by mid-2008 but this has been slowed by some unrelated political issues leading to several resignations and the hassle of assigning new folk and getting them up to speed.

Not that you care about all that, but what it does do is blow up your assertion that we don't torture people - we torture teens, every day, often for naught more than youthful rebellion.

Knowing that, do you really think I give any credence to claims that we don't torture suspected militants at Gitmo, especially when there's pictures and video from Abu Gharib showing that we damn well do anywhere else ?

Not to mention the freakin Red Cross busted our chops for conditions there, violations of treaties we signed (thus making them equal to the US Constitution itself in authority) barring mistreatment of prisoners, flagrant violations of medical and legal ethics, and abusive interrogation tactics, aka, torture.

Read the freakin ICRC report why don't you ?

Till you have, and can prove it, don't go askin for more evidence just to waste peoples time attempting to cure your preciously-held ignorance.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

AURAPTOR

Friday, March 14, 2008 9:00 PM

The lengths you folks go to in order to stretch facts so they'll fit your preconceived notions is enough to make a rubber tree shiver. Juvenile detention centers for ill tempered kiddies equates, in YOUR world, to N.Korea or Chinese work camps, where 1000's of people from all walks of life are taken off the streets or out of their homes to be sent away and 're-educated' or worse. All for the crime of speaking out against the State ?

Wow. I got nothin else to say on that matter. Oh, yeah I do...I don't fucking care about Juvie hall camps! Expose them all and bring justice to the kids, but that's not the issue here! It's not relevent to the discussion at hand, ok ? Jesus fucking christ....keep your Quixotic crusade to yourself, or make another thread , what ever it takes...I don't give a rats ass. It's not apple to apples. You're not dealing w/ US Military and those detainees aren't al Qaeda jihadist. There's a HUGE difference between problem kids and deovted terrorists for Allah.

I don't care if you connect dots from randomly selected points and draw your own conclusion. Abu Ghraib, we had a few bad seeds in there who got caught and punished, and rightfully so. That's NOT the norm for how we treat prisoners, nor is it ANYTHING like what happens down at Gitmo. Kwickie claims we "grab U.S. citizens off the streets" here in the US and sends 'em down to Gitmo. Where's the evidence? Nothing to support that claim as of yet.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Friday, March 14, 2008 9:24 PM

If it was JUST Abu Ghraib - and not also Bagram and GITMO and dozens of other places in Afghanistan and Iraq (for which I've posted article on article in the past) - and if there weren't hand-signed letters from Rumsfeld posted on the walls in those places actually authorizing extreme measures (also in articles I've posted in the past) - and if there weren't articles about secret prisons within GITMO - maybe you'd have a point. But you don't.

So go yourself. It's the only nice thing I'm going to wish for you today.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

AURAPTOR

Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If it was JUST Abu Ghraib - and not also Bagram and GITMO and dozens of other places in Afghanistan and Iraq (for which I've posted article on article in the past) - and if there weren't hand-signed letters from Rumsfeld posted on the walls in those places actually authorizing extreme measures (also in articles I've posted in the past) - and if there weren't articles about secret prisons within GITMO - maybe you'd have a point. But you don't.

So go yourself. It's the only nice thing I'm going to wish for you today.

You gotta stop believing that shit you read on Moveon.org and DU.COM. Seriously, you're living in an alternate reality that isn't founded in fact.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:32 AM

Did you have a nice fuck ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

AURAPTOR

Saturday, March 15, 2008 9:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Did you have a nice fuck ?

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

BLANETALK

Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:29 PM

Okay, I'm going to jump in with my 2.5 cents worth here.

I do not like either the Republicans or the Democrats. I have been critical of every administration since Nixon took office (only because that is when I became politically aware) and remarkably find the Carter administration the least offensive because it accomplished less during it's time in power. I'm an equal opportunity protester and think it is the ultimate act of patriotism to object when the government in power takes actions that move away from the democratic ideals this country was founded on.

Which means I have been called un-American by those both on the left and right. I no longer bother to take offense.

Here are my points:

1) The airborne assault of 9/11 was the first successful coordinated attack on our country by a foreign based criminal organization in 225 years of existence, and resulted in just over 3000 deaths. (I'm not denying the embassy bombings by al-Qaeda in 1998 or the U.S.S. Cole bombing in 2000 ... I'm just talking about coordinated attacks on U.S. soil.) These were not the actions of a country or political group. They were crimes committed by criminals. Yet as a result of those criminal actions we have launched "The War on Terrorism", invaded 2 countries, overthrown a government and have no exit strategy or the promise of a stable, locally supported government surviving in either nation.

I'll pull the following numbers from Wikipedia while openly acknowledging that this is no more reliable a news source than CNN or Fox News, but even if the numbers are wildly off, the most extreme estimate of how much lower they should be would still make my point:

Afghanistan -
Afghan security forces:
~5,820 killed
Northern Alliance:
~200 killed
Coalition:
~760 killed
Contractors
~83 Killed In Action
Civilian dead (estimated):
~ 7,300-14,000

Iraq -
Iraqi combatant dead (invasion period)(estimated): ~7,600-10,800
Insurgents dead (post-Saddam):
~19,429 per U.S. military (22 September 2007)
Iraqi Security Forces (post-Saddam, Coalition allies) Police/military killed:
~10,020
Coalition dead:
~(3,987 US, 175 UK, 133 other)~ Total 4,293
Contractors dead:
~(US 236) ~Total 1,019

===============================

All Iraqi violent deaths (survey by Opinion Research Business) as of August 2007:
~ 1,033,000

OR

Total deaths (all excess deaths) (survey by Johns Hopkins / Lancet) - As of June 2006:
~ 654,965 **

OR

All Iraqi violent deaths (survey by Iraqi Health Ministry for the World Health Organization) as of June 2006:
~ 151,000

**Total deaths include all additional deaths due to increased lawlessness, degraded infrastructure, poorer healthcare, etc.

===============================

Point is, no matter which numbers you add up or how much you change those numbers to match your position in the argument, that's a lot of death dealing for our 3000 lost souls. Especially when you take into account that very few of those victims on any side had any real relationship to the 9/11 attack at all.

2) One foreign based coordinated criminal attack on our shores in 225 years resulting in roughly 3000 deaths means an average of 13.3 deaths per year. Over the time span of 1997 to 2006, the number of instances of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in the United States was 164,903. In 2001, when foreign criminals hijacked 4 planes and causes approxamately 3000 deaths, local based criminals caused 15,980 deaths (according to U.S. Department of Justice statistics). With a population of just under 285 million people in this country at the time, that means that your chances that year of dying from a foreign based criminal terrorist attack were 0.00105%, but your chances of dying from a locally based criminal attack were 0.005611%. So if my government wants to spend nine billion dollars ($9,000,000,000.00) per month to keep me safe, they should pour it all into local and federal law enforcement, not pissing it away halfway around the globe!

3) The conservative position has always been to let businesses reg

RUE

Sunday, March 16, 2008 2:13 AM

Rap

If you had reads any of the posts I referred to you would have known that they didn't come from Moveon (MoveOn doesn't do news) or DU.com (whatever that is).

But you NEVER discuss facts with --- anyone. So really, why should I try with you ?

So why don't you do something useful like a good little boy and go yourself, again.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

AURAPTOR

Sunday, March 16, 2008 4:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap

If you had reads any of the posts I referred to you would have known that they didn't come from Moveon (MoveOn doesn't do news) or DU.com (whatever that is).

But you NEVER discuss facts with --- anyone. So really, why should I try with you ?

So why don't you do something useful like a good little boy and go yourself, again.

I discuss ONLY facts. Unlike you.In the 5 post I count by you in this thread, you offer up exactly zero facts, just wild accusations which aren't cited or sourced. Instead, you waste time and board space w/ juvenile vulgarities which avoid the issue and show your lack of mental capacity. Your last 3 post are nothing but cries for help instead of attempts to discuss anything of substance.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:28 AM

You can discuss these - at your leisure ..

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060329-2.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
http://myspace.com/911pressfortruth
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/doc1.pdf
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1
http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2004-10/13rai.cfm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/23/usa
http://www.journalismcenter.org/awards/nadya_labi.html
http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html
http://www.teenliberty.org/An_American_GULAG.htm
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/1216
07dnprotycyearend.2b704ee.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080302/ap_on_re_us/juvenile_detention
http://www.martinleeanderson.com/index.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7039912.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7068600.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7046272.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/03/brown.fema.emails/
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/13/khadr-interrogators.html
http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/edlabor_dem/rel101007b.html

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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