It's not the deeds, it's the hate.

POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 18:47
VIEWED: 10808
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FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 12:06 PM

I gotta keep this one short, I mostly wanted to post the story and initiate discussion - I have a hell of a lot to say on it, but not the time.

Apparently some third graders decided they were gonna execute/assassinate their teacher.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080402/ap_on_re_us/children_s_plot;_ylt=A
mSArMKzwj0cP402gNO_6COs0NUE

Now, you gotta understand, children, especially younger ones, have not fully subverted their natural humane instincts, so to override them takes a hell of a lot more than for one of us adults.

And any way you slice it, that kind of corruption has only one source, us adults and our world.

Try to wrap your mind around the level of hatred it would take to provoke this, and you'll start to realize that when I say they hate us, it's not a joke or rhetoric, they DO hate us, much of the time with pretty good reason.

I will have to come back to this, but I highly doubt any one specific deed triggered this, this came of a pattern of behavior and maybe something else, but I have to pull a double plus four today, so it'll be a while before I can get back to this, alas.

-F

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 1:00 PM

So some third-graders decide to hurt their teacher and all children "hate us"?

Have things gone seriously wrong somewhere between parents, teachers and children in this case? Yes, obviously.

But you can't take one case like this and blow it up to encompass every child, parent and teacher everywhere.

Can I ask, when you see a happy child somewhere, do you immediately assume it is happy in spite of its parents? I rarely ever see you post good examples. And considering that your concern for children and young adults is commendable, wouldn't it be helpful to give a hint at what you actually think people should do right?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 1:16 PM

Frem: in my experience "human nature" is more mutable and varied than you credit. I can think of about five reasons why children would do this that have nothing to do with the sort of "intrinsic" hate that you seem to think is at the bottom of this. FWIW I think you're projecting far too much of your own personal reactions onto these kids to be grasping the full story, which is most likely not a simple story of "mean authority" versus "spontaneous revolution".

For instance, I would lay at least part of the blame on violent video games and television shows that make it far more likely to visualize vengeance as a "solution" to a problem. Because honestly, no matter what the media moguls say, if you see the same thing over and over and over and over it DOES penetrate your brain and embed itself into your wiring.

There was also probably a "leader" in this group who is more than three standard deviations away from the norm, a 1/10,000 personality. Introduce a powerful personality into the group of young, learning disabled and likely more-naive-than-average kids and that spells trouble.

We have no idea of the neighborhood, either, which may be violent.

I doubt whether we'll EVER hear the full story, and we can speculate endlessly about why this happened and use it to ride our favorite hobby-horses for the next 100 posts, but I think we need to see more information before we can begin to make sense of the whys and wherefores.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 1:45 PM

Frem, this sounds like the result of a bad teacher to me. Teachers that basically hate their jobs AND kids should not be in the schools in the first place (although hand-cuffs? That IS a little radical).

The semi-serious Chrisisall

HERO

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 2:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Frem, this sounds like the result of a bad teacher to me. Teachers that basically hate their jobs AND kids should not be in the schools in the first place...

First of all, you have to applaud the kids for their planning and organization. They set a goal, devised a plan, and prepared to carry it out. If this were a charity fund raiser rather then a murder plot then we'd all see this differently.

Second, I think we need to encourage group activity and, lets face it, anything that gets them outside rather then in front of a TV, video game, or computer is not all bad.

Third, I think that we should all be thankful this wasn't just another teacher-sex scandal. Its refreshing to see some kind of outlet for student teacher relations then statutory rape.

Fourth, I can't say I was very fond of pop quizes either. And standing on a chair is dangerous.

There is no indication this was the ENTIRE class. When they say group I seriously doubt it was more then a handful.

I don't see how we can blame video games, tv, movies, the war in Iraq, the evil government, racism, sexism, or anything or anybody other then the parents and peer pressure (and Bill Clinton).

H

HKCAVALIER

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 3:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
For instance, I would lay at least part of the blame on violent video games and television shows that make it far more likely to visualize vengeance as a "solution" to a problem. Because honestly, no matter what the media moguls say, if you see the same thing over and over and over and over it DOES penetrate your brain and embed itself into your wiring.

Oh for cryin' out loud. We live in a real world where waterboarding is demonstrated on the nightly news, we justify the killing of hundreds of thousands of people to depose one "bad man," where O.J. Simpson murders the hell out of his wife and gets away with it, where hatred of the right people is considered virtuous and even questioning the wrong people means you're a "terrorist" and you want to blame A VDEO GAME??? I'll grant that games may demonstrate methods but they do not manufacture the intent, they do not create motivations! Signy, please, you need to do some research on child abuse, depth psychology, something. Would you diagnose cancer without any medical knowledge?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Try to wrap your mind around the level of hatred it would take to provoke this, and you'll start to realize that when I say they hate us, it's not a joke or rhetoric, they DO hate us, much of the time with pretty good reason.

I find that level of paranoia in an adult as frightening as this incident among children.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:30 PM

For show and tell I once took a plastic syringe (from a toy doctor's kit), into which I had inserted a straight pin (from a sewing kit), to school to 'inject' the others kids in class because that's what you do with a syringe. At a certain intellectual level these kids don't know what they're doing, they're miming what they see on TV. That's also why they were so efficient with their planning - how many times had they seen this on '24' or other everyday 'entertainment' ?

As to what triggered this, it was described as a kid being yelled at for standing on a chair. We'll probably never know the entire story but experience can give us an understanding of what might be reasonable to consider. Round about 4 grade I had a nun who (looking back) was demented. She would berate, humiliate and randomly whack children. (Word got back to the parents and she was retired to wherever nuns go to retire.) Despite that, no one in the class thought about killing her.

It takes more than 1 bad teacher to traumatize children, and a large breakdown in communication for an abusive teacher to go under the radar for any length of time. To put the entire incident down to 'it's all the abusive teacher's fault' and the kids were only going to give her what she deserved seems to go beyond any kind of normal logic.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

SERGEANTX

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:34 PM

I dunno. When I can get myself back into my third-grade mindset (which isn't hard, believe me ), I see these kids just playing a game. A joke that turns into a dare where each kid keeps playing along, upping the ante to see who has the most 'nerve'. That doesn't mean it's not dangerous, but I don't think there's necessarily seething hatred at its core.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, April 2, 2008 4:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

To put the entire incident down to 'it's all the teacher's fault' and the kids were only going to give her what she deserved seems to go beyond any kind of normal logic.

I was taking a sarcastic stab there; I never thought of messing with a teacher myself, and I had some doozies.
More probably some abuse/neglect issues at home for these students mixed with ideas from unsupervised TV-watching (they may have believed the teacher to be part of a terrorist cell, and hey- the Prez says it's okay to torture them....!).

Chrisisall

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