It's not the deeds, it's the hate.
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 18:47
VIEWED: 10808
PAGE 9 of 13
Well, as for the shootings and other retaliatory events, as it's not always tied to gunplay, just more likely to make the news that way...
It's a REAL simple dynamic.
Society - This is your life, your place in the world, and your future, you don't like it, tough shit.
Shooter - And THIS is MY answer, and I hope you choke on it!
That's why most of em kill themselves, they're opting out of what we're "offering" to them, and exacting payback on anyone and everyone they feel is part of it along the way.
What folks don't realize, just don't get, is that if it gets to the point where a kid is LOOKING for the means - it's already gone much further than it ever should have in the first place.
That's why focusing on the weapons and preventing access to them is a like takin nyquil for tuberculosis, by the time the kid is looking for the means, they've already fully decided the matter, and if we wanna truly prevent such incidents, that would require intervention of some form before that point.
But to that takes resources no politician wants to "waste" on people who, having no vote, are of no effective use to them.
Besides, the blowup from such neglect happens long after they're out of office anyway, on a cushy retirement, so what do they care ?
That's one reason I try to work with these kids, show em they have OPTIONS, that this bizarre and unnatural social structure doesn't really exist outside of the educational system, and maybe if you're not so attached to creature comforts, you can find something a bit more satisfying to DO than be a Corporate Serf-Drone.
All the while wondering WTF their guidance counsellor is doing if they're coming to ME for this advice, or if they even have one, I ain't so sure our high school does, and while it's been suggested, I don't have the official stamp of asskiss approval (degree) relative to the topic, so it's rather unlikely they'd offer me the job.
Especially since city council doesn't care for me.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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"America has a unique situation because they are trying to mix 2 different models that can't be mixed. America is founded on a deeply ingrained tradition of personal freedom, whereas most other countries have histories rooted in monarchies and feudalism. At its inception, that foundation of personal freedom came with self-responsibility and self-reliance. There was no social entitlement whatsoever. Now, the individual freedom/individual responsibility model is contaminated and perverted by the increasing socialism of our society."
And then there are Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All with no titles, hereditary lands or authority, born of the English democratic tradition and absent the serious social problems the US seems to engender. Why is that ?
Another flaw in your argument can be seen in why the European countries - born in Feudalism - have better democracies than the US. And by that I mean less surveillance, more guaranteed personal freedoms such as the right to privacy, and a less powerful ruling (ie rich) class running the show.
On a separate line of inquiry, why does the US have the highest murder rate of all western developed countries ? Perhaps the juvenile violence issue is merely a reflection of general adult society and not a school-related problem.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:I find our whole society bizarre and unnatural. To offer a "better world" outside of school is a false hope!
this bizarre and unnatural social structure doesn't really exist outside of the educational system
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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I think Fletch has got a point about "extended childhood". There are a number of relevant bumper sticker: "I may be getting old but I refuse to grow up" and "He who dies with the most toys wins". And hey, I want to be a child! I want dump my responsibilities and fulfill my need for self-actualization! I want to play, or at least work at something that I sorta like once in a while!
But overall, I'm not sure that "extended childhood" per se is the source of our problem. (Maybe that's just the hopeful child in me talking. ) There are lots of countries with happier adults who have more fun and they are FAR less violent. So adulthood doesn't have to be a drab joyless treadmill in order to create a sane society.
Likewise, childhood (extended or otherwise) doesn't have to be an endless, selfish grab for toys. In my neighborhood, all the kids of various ages played together. We spent a lot of time talking about what was "fair", so little kids got several giant steps head-start in races, and "tag-backs" were unfair in tag, and peeking in hide-and-seek was NO FAIR! and of course you HAD to yell "HOME FREE HOME" really loud so IT would know not to look for you, and you HAD to run at least around the tree in "pies" to give the fox a prayer of catching you (but likewise, fox had to stand off at least three giant steps from "safe" to give you a chance to run).
It's not about being a "child"... children over the age of seven are capable of understanding what's fair and what isn't!!!.. it's that we view selfishness... aka GREED.... as the preferred economic and social driving force. Sadly, we no longer even ask about "fair". We don't ask our leaders to be fair, nor our corporations. Is it any wonder that we don't expect our teachers, parents, or school systems to be fair either? And therefore we should not be surprised at the f*cking results!
BTW, I think "Why here?" was Rue's question not mine. Just bein' fairisall.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
On a separate line of inquiry, why does the US have the highest murder rate of all western developed countries ?
What is its conviction rate, compared to those other countries?
How likely is a person who commits a crime, to be caught and punished for it?
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The US murder rate is anywhere between 200% and 750% the rate of other western developed nations. I think the onus is on you to show the conviction rates of ALL other countries are a small fraction of the US. (Which on the face of it doesn't seem likely.) But it does make you wonder - at least it does me - why ALL other countries routinely have such substantially lower murder rates compared to the US. Maybe if we could answer why US adults are so murderous compared to adults in other countries we could answer why US children are so murderous as well.
5-6
US 5.9
4-5
(none)
3-4
(none)
2-3
Switzerland 2.94
Finland 2.74
Scotland 2.56
N Ireland 2.48
Sweden 2.39
UK 2.03
1-2
Canada 1.85
France 1.64
New Zealand 1.29
Australia 1.28
Spain 1.25
Italy 1.23
Iceland 1.03
0-1
Germany 0.98
Netherlands 0.97
Ireland 0.91
Luxembourg 0.90
Denmark 0.79
Norway 0.78
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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I didn't think that murder rates were in any way connected to conviction rates? If someone is killed that's part of the statistics even if you don't find a perp.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And then there are Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All with no titles, hereditary lands or authority, born of the English democratic tradition and absent the serious social problems the US seems to engender. Why is that ?
The US kicked the Brits out when the other commonwealth countries you listed made a much more gradual transition.
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Quote:
Perhaps the juvenile violence issue is merely a reflection of general adult society and not a school-related problem.
I do believe this may well be the case.
You'll note I've mentioned negotiation and very specifically de-escalation in several other topics, not just as a tactic for a police officer to retain control of a situation, but between ordinary citizens too.
Thing is, we have no resources or even any kind of attempt at teaching this sort of thing anywhere in our educational system, and it's a vital thing to know, imop.
Our perception of "negotiation" seems to be more have-bigger-club-take-your-stuff even now, not just on a personal scale, but even a national one.
We could do a lot worse than adding some element of this into our educational curriculums.
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Also - Re: Cat Herding.
Actually that's not wholly an accurate perception there - as you know I have six cats, right ?
Kallista, oh mighty godfather and general gang boss, considers the other cats table manners to be quite revolting, and will NOT eat in company with them, regardless of what is offered.
She will quite literally wait, until the others have piggishly satisfied their immediate desire by chugging down as much as they want, and go flop on the couch in a torpid stupor, and then presume to nibble, quite ladylike, till she is satisfied - at which point she usually goes to harrass the other five damn fools who've eaten themselves sluggish.
(This usually involves an airborne DEATH FROM ABOVE!! attack from the highest point on the back of our sectional couch.)
Cat's are WAY smarter than people think they are, and capable of a really wide range of truly interesting behaviors if you watch long enough.
-F
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Oh, yeah, also...
Anger Management = Complete Bogusness.
Instead of trying to shut down anger itself, why not solve the root problem that is MAKING someone angry ?
I mean, if someone is verbally abusing you or creating a hostile environment, does it not stand that they got a RIGHT to BE angry ?
Just a thought, on that particular brand of wholly ineffective conflict resolution.
-F
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