It's not the deeds, it's the hate.
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 18:47
VIEWED: 10808
PAGE 6 of 13
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Now, you gotta understand, children, especially younger ones, have not fully subverted their natural humane instincts, so to override them takes a hell of a lot more than for one of us adults.
Since when were children more humane than adults? They have less power than adults to do anyone much damage – it does not follow that they have any less will to do so.
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Quick lunch break post - brought to you by McDonalds freebie WIFI.
(can't say much about the food, but the free node is a nice touch!)
I do believe their plan was likely influenced or inspired by media, and this is a parental failure, but that one is complicated, as I will detail later.
No doubt a certain do or die dare element was present.
I do *NOT* believe a single minor scolding preceded this any more than I believe the LAPD was "merely restraining" Rodney King...
All too much of the time adults who are themselves guilty of some misconduct depend on the Sembler/Lichfield "all children are lying manipulators" myth, which is just that, children do not lie nearly as much or in as much deep detail as adults, and they're terrible at it besides, not having the experience or amount of forethough required for a sustained deception.
But it's not like anyone asked them anyway, right ?
Just took the teachers word for it right up front and likely dismissed anything they had to say.
And yes, these were "square peg" kids, some of whom MIGHT have real issues going on, but a substantial percentage are just incompatible with the public school system assembly line.
What's ironic is that by the determination that lead these kids to BE in that class, they were incapable of such complex planning and cooperation, now think about that for a minute - when it meant something to them, they most assuredly were.
I am leaning toward a suspicion of the teacher being verbally abusive or demeaning over a period of time towards the class, and them deciding to "freak her out" a little bit in retaliation, as the root of this.
A big part of the issue, the vital spark here is the us and them mentality practiced by the adult world towards that of children and vice versa, it generates needless conflict, and out of conflict does come hate.
For children to overcome the almost automatic respect social conditioning of any kind instills for authority figures and act directly against them in such a blatant fashion speaks of a deeper ill than a mere scolding would explain.
I will have to get back to the parental involvement thing tho, outta time here.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"unsupervised socialization"
Wasn't this whole thing about a teacher ? Then how can you claim that it's unsupervised when clearly - it is ?
Heh.. ok. So are you suggesting that the supervision was complicit? If this was supervised, how did it happen?
The point is, you leave a bunch of kids together for long enough and crazy crap is going to happen. The socialization kids experience in the typical public school setting is NOT what I call 'supervised'. Ninety percent of their interactions happen under the radar and out of sight of any teachers or parents. It's touted by the advocates of institutionalized education as an important learning opportunity for kids - all about dealing with life's tough lessons and such. Apparently, learning "prison yard ethics" is part of growing up. I think it's insane.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So rather than go down the trail discussing obviously bad analogies - or claiming to play along with arguments you don't really mean - how about addressing, from your perspective, the unique causes of these kinds of uniquely US occurrences ?
I don't think there's anything unique about it. It might happen more often here. We do tend to glamorize violence so it's probably more likely in the States. Also more likely to be blown out of proportion and make it to the national news freakshow.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Like I said, kids are socialised by the people that raise them, the point of letting them play together is to allow them to fully learn social interactions.
I didn't learn what was right and wrong from other kids, if you think that's the purpose of kids playing together then you are trying to abducate responsability for raising your children. In functional families people treat each other very well. Sibling squables aside you are treated better and fairer by your relations than you will be by anyone else. Obviously that doesnt give you the tools to deal with the real world where people may be dishonest or not so concerned with your interests. The point of meeting other people is to learn about diversity and how to deal with people who have different views and agendas.
This is far from Jail Yard ethics, it's realising that other people may not put your welfare before their own, that's an important lesson.
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"So are you suggesting that the supervision was complicit? If this was supervised, how did it happen?"
These kids don't have phones so they can yak after school ? Parents who might wonder why exactly their steak knife is in the kid's backpack ? It appears that by detecting the goods and the plot the school actually did a better job of supervising than the parents. So perhaps the parents are complicit - wouldn't you agree ?
"you leave a bunch of kids together for long enough and crazy crap is going to happen"
But it doesn't happen elsewhere. So what is it about the US in particular that makes it happen ?
"It's touted by the advocates of institutionalized education as an important learning opportunity for kids - all about dealing life's tough lessons and such."
It is ? That's a very broad brush to paint with. And not accurate or instructive to the cause of these kinds of things.
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Fletch2,
The point is the extent to which such interaction is part of a child's day. If it's a couple hours and not a compulsory experience, sure, it can be great for kids. But when they're are locked down for 8-10 hours a day it becomes their entire world. In that case it is very much like a jail yard.
I'm not suggesting the brutality and violence are the same, but the overall nature of the institutional authority structure is the same. The social dynamics are bound to similar as well. And in my observation, they are.
Rue,
I'm not saying anyone is complicit - just that they weren't supervised when they were hatching their plan.
As far as a broad brush, yeah. I'm indulging in broad ideological arguments because it seemed like you wanted to and I'm bored. It's not that I'm being insincere at all, but as I've said, we're making something out of not much at all here. It should have never made the news.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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"It might happen more often here. We do tend to glamorize violence so it's probably more likely in the States. Also more likely to be blown out of proportion and make it to the national news freakshow."
"I'm not suggesting the brutality and violence are the same, but the overall nature of the institutional authority structure is the same. The social dynamics are bound to similar as well. And in my observation, they are."
If this particular instance is unimportant and we are going to discuss broader issues, then let's discuss them with facts.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html
Eliminated from the list were non-juvenile offenders.
43 juvenile-perpetrated school shootings world-wide, 35 in the US with no other country having more than 1 instance. I'd say the US has a unique problem, and not just a problem of institutional authority.
1) Feb. 2, 1996 Moses Lake, Wash.
2) Feb. 19, 1997 Bethel, Alaska
3) Oct. 1, 1997 Pearl, Miss.
4) Dec. 1, 1997 West Paducah, Ky.
5) Dec. 15, 1997 Stamps, Ark.
6) March 24, 1998 Jonesboro, Ark.
7) April 24, 1998 Edinboro, Pa.
8) May 19, 1998 Fayetteville, Tenn.
9) May 21, 1998 Springfield, Ore.
10) June 15, 1998 Richmond, Va.
11) April 20, 1999 Littleton, Colo.
12) April 28, 1999 Taber, Alberta, Canada
13) May 20, 1999 Conyers, Ga.
14) Nov. 19, 1999 Deming, N.M.
15) Dec. 6, 1999 Fort Gibson, Okla
16) Dec. 7, 1999 Veghel, Netherlands
17) Feb. 29, 2000 Mount Morris Township, Mich
18) March 2000 Branneburg, Germany
19) March 10, 2000 Savannah, Ga.
20) May 26, 2000 Lake Worth, Fla.
21) New Orleans, La.
22) Jan. 17, 2001 Baltimore, Md.
23) Jan. 18, 2001 Sweden
24) March 5, 2001 Santee, Calif.
25) March 7, 2001 Williamsport, Pa.
26) March 22, 2001 Granite Hills, Calif.
27) March 30, 2001 Gary, Ind.
28) Nov. 12, 2001 Caro, Mich.
29) Jan. 15, 2002 New York, N.Y.
30) April 26, 2002 Erfurt, Germany
31) April 29, 2002 Vlasenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina
32) April 14, 2003 New Orleans, La.
33) April 24, 2003 Red Lion, Pa.
34) Sept. 24, 2003 Cold Spring, Minn.
35) Sept. 28, 2004 Carmen de Patagones, Argentina
36) March 21, 2005 Red Lake, Minn.
37) Nov. 8, 2005 Jacksboro, Tenn
38) Sept. 29, 2006 Cazenovia, Wis.
39) Jan. 3, 2007 Tacoma, Wash.
40) Oct. 10, 2007 Cleveland, Ohio.
41) Nov. 7, 2007 Tuusula, Finland
42) Feb. 11, 2008 Memphis, Tennessee
43) Feb. 12, 2008 Oxnard, California
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Unfortunately in the adult world being locked up for 8 hours a day with people you may not like is called a typical work day. In fact it's called a typical day for folks that live in most urban environments. I don't know that you do your kids any favours by shielding them from that.
As an aside. A few years ago I had a crazy work schedule that left me watching TV at the wee early hours. I developed an interest for real life forensics shows on Discovery and Court TV. One of the most common things you heard was the grieving parents "Mary-Beth came from a small town, back home we leave our doors unlocked, she was too trusting for the big city...."
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Quote:Some "veteran" teachers are fossilized remnants of an older era when teachers routinely smacked or (unable to do that) belittled and harassed students.
I am leaning toward a suspicion of the teacher being verbally abusive or demeaning over a period of time towards the class, and them deciding to "freak her out" a little bit in retaliation, as the root of this.
It seems to me that the laws governing interactions between adults should also apply to interactions between adults and children, and that means: No, you don't get to verbally abuse someone (in CA that would be assault) and you don't get to hit them (in CA that would be "battery"). Part of teaching good behavior is what is called 'modeling'... a fancy way of saying Practice what you preach!
I think it's kinda funny that the instigator(s) of this incident clearly had a greater degree of control over at least 9 of the students (the typical special ed class is anywhere from 10 to 20 students) so maybe the teacher could learn from the student!
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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