It's not the deeds, it's the hate.

POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 18:47
VIEWED: 10808
PAGE 8 of 13

Other stuff...

Bear with me here, this might be long and I am in a hurry so my translation of thought process to text is prolly gonna suffer a bit.

TWG

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Frem, I don't think it's us against them. I think it's the media against us. Sure kids have always had a little adult resentment, but it peaks during wars and hard times. Which means we need to be doubly vigilant.

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That's actually a part of the point I wanted to carry there, not just vigilant, but closer and more honest - right now we live in a world full of fear and stress, and folks need to talk WITH these kids, not just to them.

Ask what they feel, if they can articulate it, and see what can be done about easing those fears and stresses, actually communicate instead of talking AT them.

Few folks actually listen, really LISTEN to them, and this is a problem we really need to overcome, because a lot of problem behavior has a root cause that WE might not see as rational or important, but to the child in question it is very much so, and to deliver that kind of understanding, to bring the torch to THEM to light, guide the way, goes pretty far in solving these kind of issues before they get to that kind of problem.

Not sure if that is gonna come across like I mean it to, but I tried.


SIGNYM

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the insidious fantasy of "the hero" and the attendant single-minded and self-destructive individualism which undermines our one REAL chance of overthrowing our oppressors (as opposed to the fantasies that are shoved into our eyeballs every day). I've also posted ... as you know... about the need to treat our young with respect. The fact that we allow corporations to sell to our basest drives... sex, violence, and chemically-enhanced fun... in 30-second clips, and to portray life in the most idiotic way possible, all to sell us stuff that we don't need... is just one example that our culture treats NOBODY with respect, adults OR children. I brought up media violence simply as an EXAMPLE of the factors at work that are outside of Frem's framework. And yours too, apparently.

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Oh it's within the framework, I just couldn't get to it right away, and yanno you just saved me a whole different post about the outright STUPIDITY of the hero-myth and how destructive it is.

And respect is the key, and it's lack in our culture is a root cause of a lotta things that just shouldn't be - but it's hard to teach children to respect each other when we ourselves do not and they have so few examples of such conduct to model on, and most of those are mocked and scorned by the greater bulk of society in general.

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One of the things I find interesting about Frem is at the same time that he says that people are capable of "better" he also seems to be saying that HATE is our true nature. Seems contradictory, doesn't it?

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No more than Orcs are the true nature of Elves.

The more you suppress a persons basic humanity, empathy, personality, the things that make them a person, the more warped the form in which it finally expresses itself, and it WILL express itself, in much the same fashion as a tree root expresses itself to a sidewalk, but tough luck for the sidewalk, right ?

I'd like to see us make some adjustment before we come to a really destructive level of such a thing, if one can take my meaning of that.. hard to explain just how this effects us in a short bit, but it's the root of so much social trauma, like a steam engine with the blowoff stack wired shut, you know it's gonna happen just not when - maybe some kind of release valve is needed in the process somewhere, possibly.

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So I w/draw my statement. I mostly agree with Frem.

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Oh, I see you got what I was trying to say, well, the detailed explaination above is still useful, our impact on them needs to be adjusted and we really need to start modelling better behaviors given that they ARE gonna emulate us, and the idea of a release valve... love to have more time to explore that thought....

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Let me ask you this, Sarge- How many shows on TV (aside from

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FLETCH2

Thursday, April 3, 2008 5:54 AM

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Think of it like a virus. You can protect your kids by sticking them in a bubble and keeping them away from anything that might harm them, but all you really do is stop them from developing any natural defences to the kinds of crap that's out there.

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If you think of it as a virus, would you take your kids to a hot zone of a "monkeypox" (smallpox) outbreak? Would you make them drink sewer water? Would you make them eat rotten, moldy food? There is such a thing as too much exposure.

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Wow, total lack of proportion there! Is the rest of the world THAT bad for you? Because if it is your problems are far far worse than I imagined. I'm not "monkeypox" most people aren't.... hell most kids aren't, if you REALLY think the world is that rotten then I don't see how we can have a rational discussion.

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On Signy's question of why here. The answer to my mind is simple, in America you don't have to accept that "no" means NO. Tell someone no and he sues you or he goes over your head or he prattles on bulletin boards about you being "the man" or worse an "authoritarian." Nobody is allowed to stop you from doing just exactly what you want to so, feel you should be able to do or just have a yen for.

Personal freedom is a great thing but the freedom to swing arms is supposed to end at the other guy's nose, in America it's the other guy's bloody nose that's at fault for daring to impede your arms.

The most important lesson of growing up is knowing how to play nice with others. It's important because there will be times you will need other people and there will be times when being able to deal with other people will become important. The idea that you can pull your life over and order out of it all the people that are inconvenient to you is at best delusional.

Like the man said the definition of stress is resisting the impulse to choke the life out of those that annoy you.

And that's the crux of it, consideration for other people just never really enters into the calculation --- unless you are making money from it somehow. And people are just too busy doing what they want and getting what they want to pay any attention to what it does to those around them.

Frem made a joke about herding cats. The idea is that cats are so independent, so bloody minded that you can't get them to do anything you want. I'm sure several people here like to see themselves that way. Problem is it's a romantic fallacy -- I herd cats every day. When I fill the food bowls in the morning I can assure you that every feline is present and accounted for.

There is a theory that we socialise cats by keeping them in a permanent kitten state. Unfortunately you can do the same with people. When my parents had me their kitten days were over, life became about putting food on the table, my school, my doctors appointments, my extra curricular activities. There were no fancy holidays, no new clothes for them (they got clothes twice a year once at Christmas and once in the summer.) They didn't have these things because I needed new clothes every few months they had to buy books, toys. My arrival meant they had to give up being kids and step up and be adults.

That's not the way it seems to be today. A big screen TV is a toy for adults, so is the luxury SUV, so is the Jucuzi on the back deck. All the things people try to sell you, all the things you don't really need to have, those are toys for adults, things that folks a few generations ago would have understood to be frivolous and probably wouldn't have bothered with. Yet today we buy them because we have been kept in a child state, a mental state where want==need==the compulsion to acquire, irrespective of cost.

Somebody at some point realised that it's REALLY easy to sell to kids because kids have no impulse control, the want== need== compulsion to acquire is almost instantaneous with little filtering. When an unruley child wants something he believes he is entitled to have it, it never crosses his mind that he may not actually need it. Some other smart so-and-so realised that the longer you can keep your consumer in child state, the longer you can get them to buy stuff they don't actually need. Our society has pushed that age further and further forward keeping people in child state until the end of their lives. Yet that's only half the story because when you are a kid someone else picks up the bill for your impluse control issues. The other thing our society does is make it really easy for the child people to keep buying things.

I was at Frys buying a cable last week and there was a guy loading a plasma TV on the back of his truck. It was huge, probably 60 inches and two thoughts sprung to mind. First did he really need one that size.. I mean REALLY? Second, was this on his credit card, paid for by equity in his house? What' was the state of his retirement fund or the college fund

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That's not a bad capsule concept of one facet of the problem there Fletch, actually, but it's just one facet.

The more I look at this, both in an overview and in detail, it seems the problem just keeps coming back to a single thing.

TIME.

Parents in the US, compared to the rest of the world, get THE shortest shrift on the planet when it comes to non-work time, and I do believe this is the essential root cause not only of the problem set you just described, but many others as well, they're simply NOT THERE, they can't be there, and by that lack, over three generations that I count back as it bein a problem, we're seeing a stacking effect of those neglected folk not really being any good at parenting when they ARE there due to never having had any kind of example to work from.

Sure, the case has been made for our society here in the states being as a rule more exploitive and violent, but without a parent present in the home in sufficient time to offer counterbalance and a solid grounding in moral and ethical behavior, they're gonna model on other examples, as held up to them by various forms of media.

And I think that lack of presence is also a very large factor in the subconscious hostility a lot of our young people today are trying to cope with, and often failing, maybe hate is too strong a word for it, but a lot of them really feel left behind, facing a big, scary, hostile world no one has really prepared them for, and that fear and uncertainty makes them angry.

And that's in a decent family, mind you, cause if you add the stressor of knowing they're going to be flung out the door with a sigh of relief at the age of eighteen, unprepared, unsupported, pretty much unwanted, you're talking about quite a lot of pent-up rage involved there.

So I am calling this one on the Time/Parenting factor, and you know, I do wonder if the kids involved in this incident, what percentage of them are from homes where the parent is almost never present in an effective form, cause coming home, eating dinner and going to bed, they might be present, but they are by no means effective.

Just my take on the whole matter and it's root causes.

CLARITY EDIT: And I think *that*, is the key difference, since we're exploring why it's not the problem in other places that it is here in the states.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Is the rest of the world THAT bad for you? Because if it is your problems are far far worse than I imagined. I'm not "monkeypox" most people aren't.... hell most kids aren't, if you REALLY think the world is that rotten then I don't see how we can have a rational discussion.

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I didn't say YOU were monkeypox or that PEOPLE are monkeypox. I said being living in a cage is monkeypox.

I am referring to your post right before the virus post:

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Unfortunately in the adult world being locked up for 8 hours a day with people you may not like is called a typical work day. In fact it's called a typical day for folks that live in most urban environments. I don't know that you do your kids any favours by shielding them from that.

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I'm talking about being locked up for 8 hours a day with people you don't like. People are ok. It's the "locked up" part that is not healthy for people or for kids. And yes, I will shield my kids from being locked up for as long as I can. I will give them the freedom they deserve so if they have to be "locked up," they've at least had a foundation of independence and dignity in their childhood.

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There are only two places in the world where time takes precedence over the job to be done. School and prison.
--William Glasser

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
So I am calling this one on the Time/Parenting factor, and you know, I do wonder if the kids involved in this incident, what percentage of them are from homes where the parent is almost never present in an effective form, cause coming home, eating dinner and going to bed, they might be present, but they are by no means effective.

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I think you've hit the nail on the head here.

It doesn't necessarily have to be the parent's time, though that is the most valuable to the kid. It is time with ANY caring adult who wants to listen to the child and mentor him in limits, discipline, character, and habits. I say mentor, because we are all focused on teaching and not so much on mentoring. Mentoring is the first thing lost in schools, the first thing lost when parents don't have time, the first thing lost when kids are warehoused in day cares and schools. Kids are left to be mentored by other kids, and we all know how that turns out.

I know a lot of people who work as much as American parents do in other countries. The difference is the kids continue to have meaningful interaction with other family and mentoring by grandparents, aunts, uncles, older cousins, etc. People who are deeply committed to the child offer support and guidance in parental absence, and that mitigates the loss.

If I were to fine-tune your point, I would say competent MENTORING is what is missing. Kids are growing up without mentoring on how to make good choices from emotionally healthy adults.

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What students lack in school is an intellectual relationship or conversation with the teacher.
--William Glasser

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
Personal freedom is a great thing but the freedom to swing arms is supposed to end at the other guy's nose, in America it's the other guy's bloody nose that's at fault for daring to impede your arms...

Anyway that's my theory. Adult children with an entitlement mentality and poor impulse control do tend to lose it when the world finally says no. Such people probably lack the ability to say no to their kids or to teach much by way of restraint.

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America has a unique situation because they are trying to mix 2 different models that can't be mixed. America is founded on a deeply ingrained tradition of personal freedom, whereas most other countries have histories rooted in monarchies and feudalism. At its inception, that foundation of personal freedom came with self-responsibility and self-reliance. There was no social entitlement whatsoever. Now, the individual freedom/individual responsibility model is contaminated and perverted by the increasing socialism of our society.

Other cultures navigate that socialism better because they are used to subjugation of one's self-interests for someone else's. The entitlement from society in socialism is therefore accompanied by a concurrent responsibility to society. The model here is social entitlement/social responsibility.

What Americans have is individual freedom/social entitlement, which means there is not a speck of responsibility anywhere. Ideologically confused, they want their cake and to eat it too.

I reckon a lot of our conflicts on this board are people who want to swing it one way or the other, because this fence straddling is destroying us.

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You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles A. Beard

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Fletch,

I want to thank sincerely for your post. I don't think I've read anything in recent memory that has shed more light on this issue. That said, I don't agree with you. I hope you don't take it as patronizing, but your post has really drilled down to the core world-view differences between people like me (Frem, CTS et. al.) - and those who see it from the other side (you, rue, Signym, etc.. .)

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
On Signy's question of why here. The answer to my mind is simple, in America you don't have to accept that "no" means NO. Tell someone no and he sues you or he goes over your head or he prattles on bulletin boards about you being "the man" or worse an "authoritarian." Nobody is allowed to stop you from doing just exactly what you want to so, feel you should be able to do or just have a yen for.

Personal freedom is a great thing but the freedom to swing arms is supposed to end at the other guy's nose, in America it's the other guy's bloody nose that's at fault for daring to impede your arms.

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It's really stunning to me (though, perhaps obvious if I'd really been paying attention), just how differently we see this. You guys really do see libertarians as libertines. I've found that conflation to be all too common, but wildly off the mark. It seems to be your perception that we want the government out of the way so we can do our own thing unhindered, running roughshod over anyone in our way and living life completely free of restraint.

Libertarians don't yearn for freedom so they can bully others and always get their way. In fact, its my revulsion for that attitude that pushed me toward libertarian thinking in the first place. What drives me to push back against growing government power is the observation that state government has become the principal tool of those who want to do the bullying.

Libertarians just want the right to be left alone. Which isn't to say they want to be alone. The ones I know are relatively trusting, gregarious people who crave social interaction and voluntary communal cooperation. They're not the anti-social miscreants of popular myth. We see this right, the freedom from coercion, as the foundation of peaceful cooperation amongst humans.

I keep thinking of the opening scene in The Train Job. While Mal wasn't exactly innocent in the exchange (he was, after all, "in an Alliance friendly bar on U-day..."), it wasn't he that escalated the situation to violence. It was the Alliance fan who insisted that Mal show his loyalty by drinking to the Alliance. Once he'd said his piece, Mal opted for the preferred libertarian approach to conflict - "let's just ignore each other until we go away."

But that wasn't good enough for the Alliance. That guy had a notion in his head of what Mal 'ought' to do and he was willing to use violence to force him to do it. From my point of view, this attitude is the heart and soul of the statist mentality.

So, you've proposed that it's our lust for freedom that's driving the growing problem with violence in the US. I think it's something different. What I see at the core of so many of these violent acts is an overdeveloped sense of justice.

The kids perpetuating these school shootings aren't fighting for freedom. They're exacting revenge. If they were shooting their way out of the school, making their escape as it were, I might buy the idea that desire for freedom is the culprit. But they're not. In general, they're coming back into the schools, filled with "righteous indignation" to settle the score.

For libertarians, the concept "live and let live" is highly revered. And a big part of that equation is acceptance and forgiveness. These aren't the hallmarks of state government.

The revenge violence epidemic has grown right alongside the growth of government intervention in our lives, and I don't think it's mere coincidence. It's not clear to me which came first, but in my opinion, this hyper-justice mentality drives both.

.... you had several other interest

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