It's not the deeds, it's the hate.
POSTED BY: Fremdfirma
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 18:47
VIEWED: 10808
PAGE 7 of 13
Also, there there is something both unique and horrific about the USA that prompts these kinds of incidents. And it's not just "institutionalized authority" that's causing the problem because some of the most highly regulated nations are also the safest. And happiest.
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"True enough, but it's the ten percent, the rational 'firewall', that defines us as human."
Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal. Robert A. Heinlein
That is my favorite quote yet. Have you ever tried to make it through an entire day without a rationalization. It can't be done.
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Not to over-simplify all you big-brained folks' opinions...but I see this incident as just a natural progression in the continual deterioration of our once-civilized society. I can't point to any specific moment in time when morality, ethics, and honesty started to disappear from the social landscape, but certainly things like MTV, the internet, and tabloid TV have contributed greatly to the current social atmosphere of anything goes...and the more shocking & outrageous & demented, then the more publicity and money, and a book deal, and a reality TV show based on your vile, disgusting "life". The adventures of Paris Hilton, Anna Nicole, and Britney plastered in all our faces 24/7 de-sensitizes & sends out negative messages to our youth to anything resembling what used to be considered social manners, grace, humility, and proper behavior. I know many of you are gonna jump on my ass here for saying this, but what else is it then? The world is a disgusting stained toilet, and there are no moral authority figures left anymore to set examples of social appropriateness. They've all self-destructed too. (sports, religion, govt.) And we individuals can not, and will not ever criticize people's "right" to be stupid asshole jerks.
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Quote:Wrong on both counts.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The world is a disgusting stained toilet, and there are no moral authority figures left anymore to set examples of social appropriateness.
If the world is so bad, please explain why I still see smiles on children's faces so often, or the warm feeling I get when I think of my Wife, or why soup kitchens still serve the less fortunate, or why Serenity is getting another Special Edition....
And no moral authorities...clearly you forget James T. Kirk, sir.
Half-full Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
You are "socialised" by your family not your peers, the values you have you get from the folks that raise you... or at least that's the theory.
My friends and I had a plot going on against someone or another from about the 4th grade on. Actually I still make up devious plots to get people to this day. I've never even considered trying to pull one of them off. My parents not only taught me the difference between right and wrong, and the difference between fantasy and reality, they taught me to think independently. Good parents teach their kids to think for themselves so when they are in a group situation they won't follow the strongest personality, but decide for themselves what is right. Looking back though I'm not sure I had the fantasy/reality idea totally clear when I was in 3rd grade.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Unfortunately in the adult world being locked up for 8 hours a day with people you may not like is called a typical work day. In fact it's called a typical day for folks that live in most urban environments. I don't know that you do your kids any favours by shielding them from that.
Well, that's an honest disagreement, and I respect your point of view. But I don't share it. In fact, I feel pretty much the opposite. I think I do my kids a favor by encouraging them to avoid that kind of environment. I think it's indirectly doing the world a favor as well. Part of the reason so many people are consigned to life as 'machine parts' is that we're trained from birth to accept the notion that that's "just the way it is".
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:Chuck Norris was before my time and contrary to popular theory I don’t watch 24. No Sir, for me it is the Bruce Willis model of Justice. That self-destructive individualism! That insidious fantasy of "the hero." God knows the world doesn’t need any heroes promoting individualism.
Originally posted by SignyM:
I question nearly every day the pathology of the "Jack Bauer/ Chuck Norris" model of justice (which we see in Hero, Auraptor and Finn) which justifies any action as long as it's "for a good cause"... which inevitably morphs into vengeance, the insidious fantasy of "the hero" and the attendant single-minded and self-destructive individualism which undermines our one REAL chance of overthrowing our oppressors (as opposed to the fantasies that are shoved into our eyeballs every day).
Yippy Kay-Ay.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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That begs the question. Do you actively get to chose all the people you associate with? Did you chose all of your co-workers (or did your employer do that?) Did you chose every parishoner in your church? Will your kids get to chose the folks they go to college with, do you choose every person you ever share a bus, or an airplane or the waiting room at the doctors?
We chose our friends and our mates and that's about it, you don't even get to chose your family.
Being able to deal with people that you wouldn't have chosen to associate with is part of living in a comunity. Having the social tools to deal with that and the mental fortitude to deal with some people's petty politicing is part of life. Think of it like a virus. You can protect your kids by sticking them in a bubble and keeping them away from anything that might harm them, but all you really do is stop them from developing any natural defences to the kinds of crap that's out there.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Wrong on both counts.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
The world is a disgusting stained toilet, and there are no moral authority figures left anymore to set examples of social appropriateness.
If the world is so bad, please explain why I still see smiles on children's faces so often, or the warm feeling I get when I think of my Wife, or why soup kitchens still serve the less fortunate, or why Serenity is getting another Special Edition....
And no moral authorities...clearly you forget James T. Kirk, sir.
Half-full Chrisisall
That's a very interesting and upbeat view of things. It really begs the question of what is really the world? Is it the lives we individually lead, along with our own personal work, family, and social groups; or is the world something horrible that we have to "dial in" every day somewhere to find out about things that otherwise we wouldn't even know or care about? We only care because we tune in to know. Why know? Why not just watch Firefly and be happy?
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Hmm, looks like an interesting discussion relating to actual issues sprouted somewhere in there.. amazing, that.
OK, I got about an hour before I gotta go back in, radiator flush in progress and I hope our rookie greasemonkey can find that oil leak without burning himself...
*crosses fingers*
Ok, first - we're all well aware that children in this world are endlessly bombarded by various media, and much of the stuff they are bombarded with is quite inappropriate, that's one even I wouldn't argue with ya, cause it's a fact, and short of entirely isolating a child, which some folk try to do with mixed results, few of them if any good...
It falls to the parents to be a counterbalance.
Problem is, with a mortgage to pay, car payments, care insurance, home insurance, health insurance, utility and phone bills, all that humongous debt from the education that prettymuch means the difference between a house and a rental, and trying like hell to give the kid a leg up by trying to stuff money in a trust account for college faster than inflation sucks the value out of it...
There's just no ability for most couples to spare the time to do the job right when they are too busy just trying to keep one step ahead of the bill collectors, I know all too well, ok ?
You see, I never really knew my mother - we never had enough time together, her as a single parent, me with school and her with work, to ever really get to know each other as people, although she accepted me and my anti-authority nature because she could trust me to protect our household and interests against anyone, no matter how official sounding they were.
But to really do the job, to be the counterbalance against television and other media and it's influence, a parent has to be THERE, and these days that is next to impossible, busting ass for 60-80 hours a week on that (*snicker*) 40 hour salary, and if you don't like it, you can go work for the company that wants 90 hours, or the one that only wants 70, but all at strange hours that leave you no time to go to the store or pay bills unless the places are open at 2am.
Yes, some fault still lays squarely on the parents, but it's hard as hell for me to really lay blame when we've put our society in a place that makes it really hard for them to do their job with any kind of efficiency.
Like I said, it's complicated.
We expect them to do the job, but the nature of our current society deprives them of the time and resources to actually get it done - a fine double bind that comes out to be, and childcare/daycare don't count, it's GOT to be done by those closest to the child, or it just doesn't work.
Go back and listen to the old song "Cats in the Cradle" to understand the dynamic there, and just how plain sad that is.
-F
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