Paranormal experiences & Dreams
POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Thursday, September 1, 2005 22:52
VIEWED: 14949
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I thought this would be an interesting topic..I had thought about this a while back but wasn't sure if it should in this spot..but then I thought real world events why not and since someone else also brought up doing a paranormal thread..I thought why not
I was just curious has anyone else had any paranormal things happen to them...things they don't usually talk about or any recurring dreams
I've had serval things happen to me, but 1rst I'll talk about my recurring dream
The 1rst time I ever had this dream I was 6 years old...the 2nd time I had it I was 8 and the 3rd and last time I had it I was 11
I'll just start by saying the dream never varied the only thing that differed was my age I was 6 in the 1rst dream 8 in the second so basically whatever my age was at the time thats how old I was in the dream
its starts off I'm walking and I'm barefoot and its so hot that the ground has cracks in it and I'm so thirsty and my mouth is dry and I'm tired
all of a sudden I look up and I see a huge pyramid and behind the pyramid is a huge sun I mean its really huge and its so bright I can't look at it.. then all of a sudden I'm inside the pyramid..I don't know how I got there..but its cool and dark inside and there is hay on the ground..I don't remember much after that..only there is someone there with me an old man and he's showing me these pictures of the landscape and our world and he telling me something only I can't remember what he said
as I got older I've always wondered about that dream and if it has any meaning because I was so young when I 1rst had it and because I had it two more times after that.
I also use to play with a ghost boy when I was 2& 3 years old I guess you could call it playing...he lived at my mothers friend's house he looked to be 6 or 7 years old he had dark hair that was cut in a bowl shape he wore a red and white striped shirt blue jeans and those plain sort of tennis shoes the ones that look like keds or vans
my most vivid memory of him was one day I was playing with a ball that I had it rolled across the kitchen floor and he went over and rolled it back to me..he would always shake the pots on the stove if there was something on it...still to this day I wonder about that boy
also when I was young I would say about 5 all the way up until I was about 7 or maybe eight..I'm not exactly sure because this went on for a long time practically everyday for years
but everynight when I went to bed before I would actually go to sleep I would close my eyes really tight until it was pitch black and then I would begin to see hundreds of thousands of pin points of light in a rainbow of colors..it was like I was floating in space and everything seem to melt away and it would just be me in this space with these pin points of colored lights that seem to be moving it... was wonderful..and I loved doing it because I would melt into sleep without even knowing it
I remember vividly on one occassion when I had did it and I felt myself outside my body I was floating and all of a sudden I was at my great grandmothers house I use to love her house she had these stairs that wound around like a circle I could see her sleeping in her bed and I was looking down at her and then all of a sudden I was back in my room
my greatgrandmother was blind but the next time I saw her..she told my mother that I had come to vist her..I told my mother that one night I had visted her..my mom didn't know what to make of it
I've had one other thing happen to me I call them the Pink room dreams..because thats the only thing I can think to call them they felt real but they had to be dreams..but they are really hard to explain so maybe I'll save that for another time
anyway I've always been curious about other peoples dreams or para normal experiences and would love to hear about them
I believe that there is so much out there and we are more then just these flesh and blood bodies that we inhabit..that we are more then what we precieve ourselves to be..I believe that we are spirts in the material
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You and I might wanna have a conversation one day. Always willing and able to meet someone that lives in the real world.
"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"
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That's fascinating Piratejenny, thanks for sharing your experiences.
I used to be in the habit of reading all sorts of paranormal stuff and I thought I'd point out to you that your experience isn't as unusual as you might think. In fact, your experiences aren't quite so uncommon among women.
Have you ever had an experience where an object near you was vibrating? Some women describe a shaking bed and other frightening happenings.
Your a special sort Piratejenny. 
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Thanks for sharing your experiences PirateJenny.
I like to read about the paranormal, but I try to keep an open (and objective) mind about the facts.
Ghoulman's right. You're experiences aren't too uncommon, but at the same time there are a few others you've mentioned that are interesting.
In realtion to the ghost experiences, it's common for children under the age of five to see and play with ghosts. It's believed that children of this age and domestic animals are more susceptible to them than adults.
(People who have or claim to have clairvoyant ability also have experiences like these as a child.)
The dreams that you describe as being or feeling 'real' may be down to sleep paralysis. (Or maybe not, but it's a plausible option.)
It's a phenomena that's also commonly linked to and explains part of the Ufo phenomena.
The experience of visiting your Grandmother's house sounds like an out of body experience.
There's also a phenomena called 'Remote Viewing' that was used by the US government during the cold war. (They basically enlisted people with psychic ability to spy on the enemy in far away locations.)
Remote Viewing is a dodgey thing because it's not really proven, but the experiences you had sound similar to what happens during RV.
There aren't any paranormal experiences that I've really experienced.
Although, last week I had a dream about my eighteen month niece. Her lower lip was all inflated and sore in my dream.
The next day, I heard her crying while she was sitting in her buggy and I found out she'd bit her lower lip pretty badly.
The experience (random and small) kinda wigged me out. I'm still not sure what to think about it...
It's been great reading this thread.
Keep Flyin'!
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Quote:Hmm. Dreams tend to be heavily symbolic, so. . .
Originally posted by piratejenny:
its starts off I'm walking and I'm barefoot and its so hot that the ground has cracks in it and I'm so thirsty and my mouth is dry and I'm tired
all of a sudden I look up and I see a huge pyramid and behind the pyramid is a huge sun I mean its really huge and its so bright I can't look at it.. then all of a sudden I'm inside the pyramid..I don't know how I got there..but its cool and dark inside and there is hay on the ground..I don't remember much after that..only there is someone there with me an old man and he's showing me these pictures of the landscape and our world and he telling me something only I can't remember what he said
The pyramid could mean various things: Historically, the pyramid represents divinity, typically of a sky-god (Ra, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Yahweh, whatever). In this case, the pyramid is a stairway to the god's realm, which makes it a place of enlightenment, a place where initiates go to interact with the god(s).
In the Freudian sense, the pyramid also represents the female womb (i.e., a place where things are born from --you can see how Freud got here from the "place of enlightenment" theme). This makes things interesting though, since the sky (realm of the gods) is typically seen as masculine --it's the Earth (that the pyramids are built from) that's feminine.
Most modern religions are based on "sky-god" mythologies, but they also recall an earlier earth-god religion that had to be marginalized/villified so the sky-god worshippers could gain legitimacy. The hallmark of the earth-goddess was serpent worship (the snake in Eden, the serpent-haired Medusa, modern-day "Reptilian" aliens [a whole 'nother topic, BTW]). In all these cases though, the serpent (and the represented religion) isn't just a Bad Guy; it represents knowledge. Eden's snake gave Eve the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge, Medusa would never have existed or died without Athena's direct interference, etc.
(Don't even get me started on all the motifs and collective unconscious psycho-social "memories" that Stargate taps into. Makes my head spin.)
See where I'm coming back to?
The pyramid is a place of Knowledge, of the Forbidden/Forgotten variety. You went inside (inside the womb, to prepare for a rebirth), where you met a Teacher, who taught you something, something about the world you live in, something that I can only assume is Important. . .
I think you'll have that dream again at some point, but this time you'll remember what he was telling you. If you're lucky, it won't leave you all mind-blown and River-like.
Wait, there's more.
Pop culture, spurred by the iconic pyramids of Egypt, have added another layer of symbolism: the pyramid as time-capsule. In this sense, the pyramid can represent time, either the ancient past (built by ancestors that we don't remember) or the distant future (where the pyramids are all that remain of long-vanished glory and long-forgotten mystery).
Crunching numbers and thinking of time, I have to ask: how old are you? There's a pattern here
6 (first dream),
7, 8 (second dream, after two years),
9, 10, 11 (third dream, after three years),
13, 14, 15, 16 would be the next logical interval, then 21, then 27. . .
The blinding huge sun of your dream might just be dream-logic exaggeration (you think pyramid => desert => unbearably hot sun), but there might be something there. We now know that our sun is aging. Eventually, it'll expand, burning the land and boiling the sea (so to speak
). Could be your mind added that image "intentionally" (as much as your subconscious can have intentions).When you enter the pyramid, you're walking on hay, which, lest we forget, is the remains of once-living things, turned dead and dry. The Teacher is an old man --almost certainly the pyramid's sky-god, come to impart wisdom. "Old" can mean wise, but it can also mean "near-death."
The far future, then, and your world
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Thanks for sharing, piratejenny. It can be difficult and a bit frightening opening up like this, letting people know what is going on in your head. But since you've asked, I'll open up a bit too.
As far as recurring dreams, one I have at least 3 or 4 times a year is that in various situations, I'm given a book to read. If I pretend to read it, everything is fine. But once I try to make out what is actually written, the words dissolve into unreadable symbols, and the letters squirm like snakes.
As far as the paranormal, there have been a few things in my life. From a very young age I've had strong bouts of deja-vu (getting less frequent with age). The longest lasted almost 15 seconds, and I could even tell you where and when I had the dream when I first "saw" what would happen. And what is REALLY interesting is that my 11-year-old son asked me about "dreaming things before they happen" earlier this year. Is there a genetic link? I don't know.
There have also been a few occasions when I simply knew that something out of the ordinary was going to happen, but I had no idea of what. The day my grandmother died (of old age, in her 70s) I was in 3rd grade, I woke up and told my mother that something special was going to happen - I just knew it. And one winter evening when I was 15, I was alone in my other grandparents' house (next door to my house) with my electric guitar cranked (they were in Arizona for the winter) when suddenly it got VERY creepy being all alone. I stopped playing, listened, looked around, and no-one was there. About 30 seconds had elapsed when I picked my guitar back up and fingered a chord, but before I could play it the gorram lights went out!!!! Scared the hell out of me!! Grandpa had the lights on a timer.
In college, I had a friend explain to me how to use "retinal overload" to see things you can't normally see. Like when you stare at something so long that all the colors seem to change, especially in low light and your eyes are tired. And later on that year I spent a FASCINATING evening talking with a girl from a different floor of my dorm. I would "look" at her, using the retinal overload trick, and (for example) once I could "see" her hair moving on its own. She told me that for her entire life, as long as she could remember, she had been hearing voices, and had a guardian spirit she could actually feel touching her (he was playing with her hair when I noticed, she said). Sometimes she would ask me to "look" in a corner and tell her if I could see anything (several times I saw hazy figures) and if I noticed a figure somewhere else, I'd ask her if she heard anything, and she could point in the rough direction of a voice she was hearing (it almost always lined up with what I had seen).
I haven't tried any of this in many years - a few times, I saw things that really freaked me out, including a classic ghost-type figure, hooded robe and all, that turned towards me and pointed right at me as soon as I overloaded my eyes and "saw" it.
Lastly, I've occasionally been able to feel other people's emotional states. Once again, back in college, I had a female friend I was VERY close to since high school. She'd complain about her boyfriends, or about not having one, I'd complain about not having a girlfriend, we'd give each other backrubs, and generally hang out. One night she had a date, and I was playing poker with the guys, and suddenly I felt a shiver run down my spine and I got REALLY horny for a few seconds. I noted the time (9:30) and kept playing. Then, about an hour later, I had another very stong feeling, almost like exhaling after holding your breath for a long time.
The next evening, I asked her about her date, and we compared notes and matched up times. The first rush I felt happened about the time they were going down to the basement of his parent's house for what she was hoping would be a pretty intense make-out session (we were all 18, and freshmen at a Christian college, folks, so only R-rated!) And the second feeling was about the time she realiz
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thanks everyone for sharing, I've always wondered why people don't talk about these things more like in everyday discussions, I agree with the person who said some of these things aren't all that uncommon ..I think its just that we don't give a voice to them... and you really have to wonder why..maybe it could have something to do with being a child..when these things happen..and not really being able to articulate them and the more I think about it..I have to say at the time these things happened to me..it didn't occur to me to think of them as unsual..I mean seeing those pin points of lights everynight..just seemed normal to me... and too the intensity of the memory starts to fade..and you sometimes wonder about what happened.
I love the dream analysis, its funny because I've wondered about that dream all my life since it happens..but I've never sought out any type of meaning
I've heard of remote viewing and I've always been curious about that, I don't know much about how it works..but I think it has something to do with instincts
and I do think that all of us experience clairvoyancy at some point or another I do think its something that comes out in all of us at various times..its so interesting to know that we all have the ablity to see the past and the future..only we don't know how to access that part of us on a regular basis..I guess there is a reason for it!!
and to Darkjester some of your experiences seem fascinating to say the least.
espeically the retinol overload thing..and being able to see the hazy figures..
i do believe that there are so many things going in that we can't normally see that are going on thats in our world but thats outside of are world at the same time does that make any sense..maybe things that can be picked up or seen on another frequency if only we can tune ourselves into that freguency.
speaking of feeling and being able to tune into someone elses feelings...my older sister always mentions this to me.. ( I have no recollection of this)but when I was about five I was up and my sister said I was staring at her, which she said was just weird and gave her the creeps..but as soon as she opened her eyes I said your going to be sick...later that day she was sick..she was sent home from school because she had puked all over herself)
I had actually forgot to mention this one dream I had..because well its really gross.. and it really wasn't a dream...after all it really happened but it was just the weidest thing. I was also five or six when this happened
I had dreamed that there was a mouse in my bed, only I don't remember all of the dream ..I'm scared of mice but as soon as I woke up without hesitation I pulled back the covers and there was the mouse dead
but you know what was so weird about it
the mouse was as flat as a pancake..as flat as a sheet of paper but everything was in tact..the eyes eveything there was no blood no guts not anything messed up on that mouse it was just flat
I ran like lighting speed into my mom's room and told her..I was scared to tell her..but I wasn't going back to that bed
My mom came in saw it, she never mentioned it she just got a dust pan and a broom and got rid of it, I never spoke about that mouse..
but it really creeped me out I guess I rolled over it..but I still don't understand how it got to be flat without there being any blood..even as a child I wondered about that.
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I have had similar experiences, all of which in my opinion have a direct link with the paranormal.
As a child I made the mistake of telling folks, I thought I could trust, my experiences. They were deemed strange enough that I was dubbed with the name "Demonboy" in grade school, because one of my schoolmate's parents was a psychologist I was taken to see, and she told her son. Since then I've only shared my stories with a scant few. However, since this is the internet and I am unlikely to suffer undue pressures hehe:
I've seen ghosts..some benign and some very malignant. I've experienced poltergeistic activity. I had a recurring dream as a child..many times it we reoccur weeks at a time.
I always dreamt that I was much older and was walking by my grandfather's home with a bunch of friends (none of whom I knew at the time, I just felt they were friends), when I heard a baby's cry come from the house. I ran inside and up the stairs in complete darkness. I remember that I was completely unafraid. I enetered the room from which the cry had come and saw a woman sitting on a bed crying. I saw a small infant standing in its crib crying. That was when I heard a low guttural laughter behind me. I turned and saw only a dark mist with no physical shape to say of. I remember it came at me and I pummeled it. I slowly turned it so it was in front of me and I grabbed it and pushed it out of an open window in the room. It was then, that the most chilling part of the dream occurred. At first there was only silence. During the fight, I had suffered no injuries and felt confident that the matter was over. It was at this point that I looked out the window and there was nothing. That was when I heard the laughter again behind me. I remember the feeling of utter fear and cold. I turned to face the laughter and the thing bit me.
I woke up, with the smell of charred flesh lingering in the air and a pork chop taste in my mouth. I had this dream approximately 40 times when I was about 11. The psychologist determined I was Super Hyperactive and I had to spend 4 years as a zombie under the effects of Riddlin.
Another situation occurred when I moved into an old old house when I was 19 with some friends. There were six of us who witnessed things flying across the room during dinner. Glasses slid across the dinner table and dumped into 2 of my friend's laps followed by the doorknobs and doors shaking and moving. The empty cans flew off the stove we had cooked dinner on. I stayed in the apartment after they had moved out, because I didn't feel threatened per se. They on the other hand lost it. Things were ok for awhile and it was nice to live alone again. That is until I was rendered immobile several times and experienced severe pain (no markings however) and heard many voices in conversation and laughter. I asked a friend, who knew a medium to come over on a weekend and bring her with him. She brought a couple of people with her. They claimed I was a "sensitive" and quite possibly was channeling a wake that had occurred in the apartment many years ago. Needless to say..I thought I was being possessed and moved the hell out LOL.
I have seen a child ghost. I was about 22 in another apartment I had lived in. She actually came out of my bathroom and walked to the door of my bedroom, turned around and walked into a back closet near the bathroom. I asked the old man who owned the place if there had been a room back there. He said that the house used to be an old farmhouse and there had been rooms on the back of the house in the early 30's. They removed them to make a larger back yard after all the farmland was sold. The weirdest part of the experience was that I felt totally calm and unafraid. She never gave me a feeling of discontent.
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I'd classify ghosts and hauntings in three different ways.
1) Replayers; An event has taken place in a specific place that left an imprint, like a photographic negative, the event replays itself from time to time when the conditions are right.
2) Revenants; Some has died in a place either violently or with unfinished business pressing upon them. They cannot move on unless this issue is resolved or their murder is solved.
3) Residents; Some people just loved the place they are living in so much that they refuse to move on. They feel a strong attachment to the house and may resent the people who live there now.
Like anybody else these spirits can be good, bad or indifferent. I believe there are also non-human spirits. Animals certainly, especially those domesticated by man and with strong attachments. But also, for lack of a better term, devilish or demonic spirits. These are malicious and can cause great harm.
I've had lots of weird experiences and I don't automatically lump anything that happens into activity of the spirit world, but just into an event awaiting explanation. Sometimes there is a logical, scientific explanation, sometimes there isn't. That could be because our science isn't advanced or open-minded enough or it could be because the event isn't explainable in the rules of this world.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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there are two things I would like to talk about, one of them maybe a little off topic but 1rst I'll start with Connorflynn
I think it was just ridiculous and ignorant that you were labeled Demon boy all because of some strange reocurring dreams that you had, I don't understand why people are so quick to try to villify something they don't understand..it makes you wonder how far we've come since the dark ages..
Again alot of these experiences I don't really think are that uncommon its just that people don't talk about them and its understandable why!!!( I look at what happened to you)..how many other kids are being medicated or labeled hyperactive because of such experiences..I do think children inparticular are alot more sensative and aware of other-worldly things..I think we grow out of it as we get older and are more solidly grounded in the material world where we rely heavily on our five senses..to mold our perceptions of whats real..
Its really to bad that we don't all talk about these things more..I think it would help us and move us further along as a speices..its really sad that you told people you thought you could trust and ended up in a bad spot because of it...
Your dream is really frightening.., it could very well be that it was really happening to you in some way maybe in some other realm...it seemed to fully engage your senses..maybe the person who analylized my dream could do the same for you..maybe it would help..since you had it so often..there is probably something to it.
The old house..sounds as if it had some poltergeist ....or were you or any of your friends playing with a quija board..there are somethings that can open a door to unseen things good and bad, I personally haven't any experience with such things but I heard about it and I believe it.
you seem to have no problem seeing ghost..you must be sensative to such things..
the other thing I thought was interesting was this
Quote:
In all these cases though, the serpent (and the represented religion) isn't just a Bad Guy; it represents knowledge. Eden's snake gave Eve the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge,
why is it that the snake is considered evil...or the bad guy..he gave Eve the apple which is a symbol for knowlege..( why is knowlege considered a bad thing..is being ingnorant and stupid good)
Now I'm not religious but I've studied up on a variety of diffrent religions to have an understanding of them..
the power that and hold that religion has over people has always fascinated me
Reading up on Lucifer..he is considered the Light Bearer..the Enlighten One the bringer of light and knowlege..he is the snake we still see his symbol used in various forms even to this day, like the medical symbol of two snakes entwined
It seems to me that Lucifer is really the good guy, if not good then certainly not bad or evil as he is labeled
I still don't understand why he was villified, ..why is having knowelge such a bad thing
if anyone would like to discuss this feel free , I've I think its interesting to say the least
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
how many other kids are being medicated or labeled hyperactive because of such experiences..I do think children inparticular are alot more sensative and aware of other-worldly things..I think we grow out of it as we get older and are more solidly grounded in the material world where we rely heavily on our five senses..to mold our perceptions of whats real..
Well..hehe..it was the 70's. The years of the Riddlin craze LOL. Over 3/4 of my class was on it. When I was in highschool, I used to claim it was mind control methodology LOL.
Quote:
The old house..sounds as if it had some poltergeist ....or were you or any of your friends playing with a quija board..there are somethings that can open a door to unseen things good and bad, I personally haven't any experience with such things but I heard about it and I believe it.
I have never used a Ouija board. Nor did my roommates. They were devout Jehovah's Witnesses. After my experiences there, I would never consider attempting to use one, for fear of possession or other adverse consequences. I'm a firm believer in the after-life in whatever form it takes. I have yet to meet anyone who I felt had a grasp on handling any potential issues that would arise from using an unprotected device.
Quote:
you seem to have no problem seeing ghost..you must be sensative to such things..
It's a possibility I've considered. I almost joined a paranormal group, to make some sense of things. The only hitch to that was the fact that most of the folks were complete charlatans and made it all seem like a big waste of time.
Quote:
why is it that the snake is considered evil...or the bad guy..he gave Eve the apple which is a symbol for knowlege..( why is knowlege considered a bad thing..is being ingnorant and stupid good)
Now I'm not religious but I've studied up on a variety of diffrent religions to have an understanding of them..
the power that and hold that religion has over people has always fascinated me
Reading up on Lucifer..he is considered the Light Bearer..the Enlighten One the bringer of light and knowlege..he is the snake we still see his symbol used in various forms even to this day, like the medical symbol of two snakes entwined
It seems to me that Lucifer is really the good guy, if not good then certainly not bad or evil as he is labeled
I still don't understand why he was villified, ..why is having knowelge such a bad thing
if anyone would like to discuss this feel free , I've I think its interesting to say the least
From Wikipedia:
In Christianity, Lucifer has become synonymous with Satan, nevertheless. From the Christian viewpoint, Lucifer was second in command to God himself, he was the highest archangel in heaven, but he was motivated by pride and greed to rebel against God and was cast out of heaven with the angels who followed his lead. Then he became the Devil and his followers were known as demons.
Then there is Satan LOL: Another interesting piece -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan
In Pagan belief..the Snake symbolizes "The Goddess". In Unitarian Churches, I have seen sunday school books portray the story of Adam and Eve in a different light, showing the snake as being not so much a tempter as a bringer of knowledge.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
I'd classify ghosts and hauntings in three different ways.
1) Replayers; An event has taken place in a specific place that left an imprint, like a photographic negative, the event replays itself from time to time when the conditions are right.
2) Revenants; Some has died in a place either violently or with unfinished business pressing upon them. They cannot move on unless this issue is resolved or their murder is solved.
3) Residents; Some people just loved the place they are living in so much that they refuse to move on. They feel a strong attachment to the house and may resent the people who live there now.
Like anybody else these spirits can be good, bad or indifferent. I believe there are also non-human spirits. Animals certainly, especially those domesticated by man and with strong attachments. But also, for lack of a better term, devilish or demonic spirits. These are malicious and can cause great harm.
I've had lots of weird experiences and I don't automatically lump anything that happens into activity of the spirit world, but just into an event awaiting explanation. Sometimes there is a logical, scientific explanation, sometimes there isn't. That could be because our science isn't advanced or open-minded enough or it could be because the event isn't explainable in the rules of this world.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
I think you hit the nail on the head, Hardware. I am NOT a superstitious person, but I do believe in the supernatural. I am also a firm believer in Psychological energies put forth by humans that can create paranormal energies, both good and bad. When I was confirmed as a Catholic in 1984, The energy that was moving about the church was incredible. When the Bishop walked down the aisle to perform the ceremony, there was a surge of power (if you will, not really sure how to describe it) that followed him and swirled about the church. The feeling was so strong, I remember feeling afraid, and humbled all at the same time, enough so that I actually forgot why I was there. My mother claimed it was the holy spirit, I was convinced it was created by the folks who were there. Now even back then I was never a "devout" Roman Catholic, I was going through the steps for my parents LOL. However after the experience I would have to say, there is definitely something that occurs when you have so many people together who believe strongly in something. There is much that we still have to learn about the capacities and powers of the human mind and psyche.
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This is really an intersting thread. I really enjoy reading everyone's stories. Thank you.
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I'll agree on the Ouija Boards = Badness thing. Ouija Boards are the spiritual equivalent of opening all the door and windows of your house and yelling "PARTY!!! FREE BEER!!!" You have no control or awareness of who (or what) is gonna show up and what they're gonna take it into their hypothetical heads to do.
This is why shamans and mages rely on ritual; it makes sure that the thing/person you're invoking is the one that actually shows up.
Main rule of Summoning: Never summon up anything that you cannot put down. Applicable in so many other things besides.
Quote:No promises, but I can try.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Your dream is really frightening.., it could very well be that it was really happening to you in some way maybe in some other realm...it seemed to fully engage your senses..maybe the person who analylized my dream could do the same for you..maybe it would help..since you had it so often..there is probably something to it.
My first guess is that this dream is a warning.
You hear someone in need of help and rush to help them (a good move), you encounter a threat that you don't understand and do what you can to counter it (another good move). It's only then that something goes wrong. Could be the dream is warning you that your attempts to help/do good are backfiring --like you have the will, but you lack the training/experience to use it wisely. Or maybe it's your confidence that the dream is warning you against --it was only when you think the matter's over (and, I'd guess, let your guard down) that the thing attacks you.
The scent and taste upon waking are curious. They could be psychosomatic --especially the smell; scent is the most easily-fooled of human senses. What intrigues me is that the burning smell doesn't correspond to anything in the dream. Unless the "dark mass" actually represents a fire, and you're rushing into the building to rescue the mother and child from the flames. . .
The taste is more telling; you say the black mass bites you, then you wake up tasting meat.
Could be the dream is a warning --that you yourself are a danger to someone you care about. Probably family, both given that they're in your grandfather's house, and that the "woman" ("mother?") and "child" images seem to imply two-thirds of a family.
Your friends in the dream, have you met any of them yet? Did you recognize the woman and child?
Quote:It's not so much that knowledge itself is bad, but that knowledge that doesn't come from "Us" is bad. Remember that the Bible, like all history (yes, especially the parts that didn't happen) is written by the victors. The serpent-worshippers were the guys who lost.
why is it that the snake is considered evil...or the bad guy..he gave Eve the apple which is a symbol for knowlege..( why is knowlege considered a bad thing..is being ingnorant and stupid good)
In the case of Adam & Eve, the knowledge that the snake offers leads the humans to defy God, which is a Very Bad Thing(tm). The allegory is that knowledge leads to hubris, to thinking that you know better than God (or the gods, or the dully authorized representatives thereof).
Most religions can only function by maintaining a monopoly on "Truth." If Christianity says you can only reach Heaven one way, and someone else comes along with another way, well, then, one of them must be wrong (and therefore must be Converted and/or Killed). See the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, Chronicles of Riddick, etc.
Judeo-Christianity in particular teaches that All Truth comes from God and only from God. Likewise, all Goodness comes from God. Anyone who disagrees can only possibly be Evil, and any "truth" that contradicts what God has "said" (via those dully authorized representatives) must be heresy. And we burn heretics. Or cancel their TV shows, whatever.
The key thing to remember about organized religions is that they're organized. Which means that what God says sometimes has to take a back seat to what the Church s
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Your friends in the dream, have you met any of them yet? Did you recognize the woman and child?
I never actually saw the faces of the people I was with. I just knew they were friends, though they didn't enter the house. As for the woman and child..the same situation. This dream occurred nightly for several weeks, to the point I didn't wish to go to sleep. I also didn't eat much in the way of meat after they stopped, for quite awhile.
I never found out what brought the dreams on or why they stopped.
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Just a quick comment, then back to work for me!
When I was about 16 I dreamt that I and a man were stranded on a half-sunken raft in the middle of a fetid creek. (I know, it was a creek, why didn't I just get up and wade or swim to the shore? All I can say it, it was a dream!) We had been there for a long time and I was in a fever-like state, I knew that if we weren't rescued soon we would die. And there were some black clam-like parasites growing in my skin at the back of my knee...
After I got up that day, I read a story in the newpapers about a couple who had been rescued from the Great Barrier Reef after two weeks or so on a raft that they had cobbled together from the flotsam of their exploded yacht. Their raft, such as it was, was waterlogged and sinking, and the woman has some snail-like parasites growing in her leg...
Boy, now THAT made me sit up and take notice!
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Remember that the Bible, like all history (yes, especially the parts that didn't happen) is written by the victors. The serpent-worshippers were the guys who lost.
Its too bad they lost we might have been better off if they had won. Its Ironic..but perhaps its Lucifer and the Serpent -Worshippers..that were really the good guys in this case
Maybe for anwers we should look towards them and see what truths we can find
in the words of Captain Mal Reynold's "may have been the loosing side..but I'm not convinced it was the wrong side"
Quote:
In the case of Adam & Eve, the knowledge that the snake offers leads the humans to defy God, which is a Very Bad Thing(tm). The allegory is that knowledge leads to hubris, to thinking that you know better than God (or the gods, or the dully authorized representatives thereof).
Judeo-Christianity in particular teaches that All Truth comes from God and only from God. Likewise, all Goodness comes from God. Anyone who disagrees can only possibly be Evil, and any "truth" that contradicts what God has "said" (via those dully authorized representatives) must be heresy. And we burn heretics. Or cancel their TV shows, whatever.
I know that the judeo Christian bible is mostly allegory..and that most of the stories were taken from much more older ancient coherent sources and was condensed and also changed..thats why the bible is such a hodge podge of contradictions..and alot of it just doesn't make any sense
what I don't get is how people can think that goodness comes from God when God the Judeo Christian version of God is not good....this is my opinion but he seems like a blood thirsty warmongering ego maniac...even if no one agrees with my opinion of this God..I still don't see how he can be classified as good....just based on the writtings in the bible alone., it seems farfetched that it should be thought of as good people seemed to fear him..more then respect him ...how anyone can come to the conclusion that God is good baffles me.
which I guess brings me back to my original thought..Its insane that Religion has such power and hold on people ..I mean if you take the story of Adam and Eve alone...and see the disservice that was done to them to the human race..its obvious that the God/Gods were afraid of humans getting knowlege because then they would not be able to subject them to their will Knowlege is power..Ignorance is a slave
Basically what the story of Adam and Eve is telling us..is to stay ingnorant..stay stupid and be subjected..be a slave..and if you look at what most religions have done to people its worked..
(when I say slave I wonder what comes to peoples mind)
I'm not saying that religions don't have some good things about them..most do but I think the bad outweighs the good
Religion is such a racket..and its powerful espeically when used as a tool as it so often is, I wish we could do away with it and start fresh and clean
it amazes me that we humans are always looking outside of ourselves for our salvation..we look to God/Gods..when really our only salvation is inside of us..we need to take respossiblity and realize that we have control..that our fate is in our own hands and not outside of us, only we can save oursleves
While I do think the Judeo -Christian bible is a big mess...the further you go back..like say for instance the Summarians..where alot of the stories from the old testament were taken ..you get a much more coherent dialogue..I do believe there are something to those stories
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When I said that sky-god religions recalled "an" earlier religion, I meant it. It looks like all of these religions, including some in the Americas and Asia, were the same serpent worshipping religion. According to "conventional" knowledge, that's just not possible, because it requires a planet-spanning civilization at least 1400 years BC, which is "impossible." It would also require the following civilizations (our "ancestors") to have been less advanced.
Others have speculated that this snake cult miNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
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After I got up that day, I read a story in the newpapers about a couple who had been rescued from the Great Barrier Reef after two weeks or so on a raft that they had cobbled together from the flotsam of their exploded yacht. Their raft, such as it was, was waterlogged and sinking, and the woman has some snail-like parasites growing in her leg...
Boy, now THAT made me sit up and take notice!
It seems that you tuned into something that was actually happening
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Well this is an interesting thread!
These are a are a few real events that happened to me and I've described them as best I could, maybe a little verbose. Well, I tried.
My stories... * clears throat* here goes...
Once I was staying at my grandparents' house for the weekend. The house was originally an army barracks from WWII. It's basically two large rooms wide in front and the rest of the house extended back another 5 rooms length. It had a main hallway that extended from the back door of the house to the front rooms. Here's where it starts. My mother and aunt are sitting at the kitchen table chatting . Meanwhile, I crawl out of the hide-a-bed sofa in the living room across from them. Nature called so I walk through the hall to the bathroom which sits right behind the kitchen. I make sure to lock the bathroom door which is a switch type of latch, that needs a skeleton key to unlock it. Well, I have a seat, for the morning tinkle. I hear footsteps and the creaking floor underneath, coming up the hall from the back of the house where my cousin's room is.
In a split second I hear someone touch the door knob and unlatch the door, and at that moment I say, "Hey! I'm in here!" The door opens determinedly. I feel like screaming at first from the lack of no one there, but then become defensively angry and I quickly gather up my pajamas and swifty walk back up to the kitchen. In denial, I think it was my cousin being a jerk. I asked my mom and aunt if they'd been in the back, and who just walked up this way and opened the door on me in the bathroom!? and didn't they hear whoever it was walk up the hall? They look befuddled. My mom says, "You've missed everybody this morning, everyone else has gone to town." I told them what happened and I was a lovely shade of pale. I couldn't go back to the bathroom that day for a very long time!
Next story...
I'm at my friends house/place of business. It's a two story from about 1910 if that makes any difference. We're standing in the doorway of this bedroom trying to make a decision about a fabric.We're talking and my friend's long skirt swhooshes up at the hem making her jump, and this grayish cat swoops toward me and then under the bed, swooshing the bedskirt as well. We are both surprised. I asked which cat that was and my friend looked sheepish. I looked under the bed and called for kitty here and there, nothing. I know all her cats, and the only gray one she had was her ancient one snoozing in the living room.
She told me that she had seen "it" a couple of other times. She never wanted to say anything because her boyfriend told her she was full of it. Now that I'd seen it with her, she said she felt better knowing phantom kitty was real.
Countless other times I've thought I had seen a cat here and there, various places. I began to ignore it, and just think I'm nutty. Since this "phantom kitty" episode, I've had two other recent experiences.
I was at the dinner table eating lunch with my mother in law. I saw something out of the corner of my eye. My MIL is talking and I just look over to what caught my attention. Her cat is sitting there. The cat had gone to kitty heaven about two months previous. I zoned out for about 30 seconds while the conversation continued, I couldn't swallow or speak, just said "mm-hmm" appropriately. The kitty just sat and stared at me, and finally I had to force myself to turn my head. Of course turning back to look once more and the kitty was gone.
My most beloved kitty, gone for about a month at the time, showed up under my chair at the computer. She always liked to brush past my ankles and look up at me from under the chair. I saw her stripey brown head then the long white furry ruff, and the dark brown fur followed when I began to look down. Of course once I looked directly down there was nothing. Not long after that I saw her sitting at the end of the hallway one morning after I got up.
I'm just sitting there on the sofa, and there she is in my peripheral vision clear and out in the day light. I turn after a f
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This is a cool thread. Thanks for starting it.
I am a firm belever in the paranormal and such, and could go on and on about it, but while we're on reoccuring dreams, I'm gonna share one of mine that I've always kind of wondered about. I had this dream every now and then for a couple of years when I was little, probably around 6-8.
My parents and I are sitting at home watching Wheel of Fourtune and there's a fire comming towards our house. I'm kinda concerned but my parents don't want to leave untill the shows over (which is especialy odd sense they HATE TV). So eventually we do leave and go to this place (I would like to point out that i only dremt this begging part once, after that it picked up from here every time I had this dream) So we go to this place which is pretty much a dungeon, a lot of stone and no windows and very little light. There's also these evil (for lack of a better word) deamons running around, but who mostly stay away except for certain times. When they DO come out, you can get away from them by moving inside these rings painted on the ground. If the deamos try to come inside the ring they turn into 'good' (that is, not evil) deamons and melt into the groud.
It sounds not so terrifing now, but when I was little it scared me too death. It also leads me to wonder, has anybody had a reoccuring dream that WASN'T a nightmare?
I think dreams are very, very cool, and not to be ignored or shoved aside. Its how your brain tries to sort out whats going on in your life.
There's an experiment that I've always wanted to try (you need a partner, preferably a close friend) where, as you both fall asleep, you think about eachother, and concentraite on having a dream together. If all goes according to plan, it is possible to have a simutanious dream where you interact with eachother and both remember (upon awakening) the same dream. Supposidly. Has anyone ever experienced this?
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Four out of five gynecologists reccomend calling Ebo a girl.
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Quote:Well, religion provides "absolute truths," things that are "certain" and that we can base our ideas of reality on. Where would we be without "Good" and "Evil?" We need the idea of Absolute Good to justify ourselves and/or tell us what to do, and of Absolute Evil to blame for our problems, failures, and weaknesses. It helps us to think that "Those People" are just Evil, and we have nothing in common with them, and so shouldn't bother trying to understand them, but just kill 'em.
Originally posted by piratejenny:
which I guess brings me back to my original thought..Its insane that Religion has such power and hold on people
Why, without religion. . . we'd have to be accountable for our own actions.
Kinda like in Jeremiah; no one to teach morals, ethics, laws. . . So what's left?
Incidentally, at least one version of the Eden story specifies that the snake wasn't actually Satan; it was just a pre-existing being that he possessed (or "corrupted"). Possibly this reflected a view that the serpent wasn't inherently Evil, but was using knowledge for Evil/destructive ends.
Quote:Thus the irony of the whole "religion vs science" debate.
Its really sad, we don't really know our own racial history as a speices on this planet, and sadly religion doesn't encourage this knowing..our own history is a mystery to us..this is crimnal..its not right...
Initially, science (and history, by association) was the anti-religion, intended to look at quantifiable, empirical evidence and form logical conclusions based on that evidence. When evidence is found that doesn't fit the model, then the model is to be dissassembled and replaced with a new model that accounts for all the evidence.
Unfortunately, sometime in the past few centuries, that all went wrong.
The "Scientific Greats" became gods themselves, and their cumulative theories took on the authority of gospel truth.
Nowadays, any evidence that doesn't match the Official Theory is repressed. If the evidence can't be repressed, the means by which the evidence was gathered is dismissed. If the procedure is beyond reproach, the scientist who presents the new data is discredited and "excommunicated" from the scientific community. Like Charles Fort ( http://www.forteantimes.com/mag_info/about.shtml), they tend to be largely dismissed, and known only to those who seek them out.
We may not have public witch-burnings anymore, but people have been known to disappear under mysterious circumstances. No word yet on whether or not blue gloves are involved, but you know how it is.
Quote:Like I said, no one wants to be branded a heretic.
..why isn't this a main topic of discussion in schools all around the world..why aren't we as a speices as the human race..not fully engaged in finding out these things..
More, no one wants to find out that their world is a lie. It tends to break people (think Mal after Serenity Valley).
Quote:Interesting use of symbolism; the protective binding circle is an Earth symbol. Perhaps the demons you're seeing are Earth spirits, inhabiting the (probably subterranean) dungeon.
Originally posted by ebonezer:
When they DO come out, you can get away from them by moving inside these rings painted on the ground. If the deamos try to come inside the ring they turn into 'good' (that is, not evil) deamons and melt into the groud.
(Cool trivia: the circle protects what's inside from things outside. Conversely, a triangle imprisons things inside it. Note that the Jewish Star of David is two triangles forming a vaguely circular shape. . .)
The fire could represent anything; likely something that you're aware of, but that your parents/society don't see, perhaps because they've been trained to look the other way. Ironic in a way, because the "wheel of fortune" is a karmic symbol (which, I guess would make Vanna White into Kali. . .).
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Note: I've quickly typed this, so if there is any agressiveness, etc in it, please don't take it as such. I just don't have the time to go over it with a fine tooth comb right now to be sure of the politically correctness
Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Initially, science (and history, by association) was the anti-religion, intended to look at quantifiable, empirical evidence and form logical conclusions based on that evidence. When evidence is found that doesn't fit the model, then the model is to be dissassembled and replaced with a new model that accounts for all the evidence.
[snip]
Actually, initially science was religion. This is especially evident in the fact that the only people that were educated were the priests or whatever the equivalent was called. The more bold amoung them tried to describe god's great creation ("science").
You say that the theories have taken on gospel truth and that is far from the truth. The only reason why people think this is that they have no idea how the scientific community works, nor do they have much of an idea of how science works in general.
So, someone comes up with this theory to try to bring it to a level that they'd understand and people buy it because they understand that theory. After all, if someone doesn't understand something then they are forced to admitt that they aren't as smart as they think they are (or at least lack some knowledge) and that can't be, right? Because we're all special, etc.
As an example, Einstien's relativity has undergone changes since it's original creation. People have found mistakes in it and have fixed them. People are still doing research in relativity as there are still problems with it. This wouldn't happen if Einstien and his theory was taken as gospel truth. This is especially evident in the fact that is is widely regarded as not TOE.
An example of people be skeptical is string theory. The problem people have with it, is that although many find it a pretty, excellent theory, it has yet to produce even one prediction. Since it has been around for some time this makes people skeptical of it.
Also, if it relativity was gospel truth, then it would be the ultimate truth and as such, no problems would be found (or at least they would be justified somehow). Again, this is wrong as stated above.
Would you consider Stephen Wolfram to be a modern day Fort? After all, his work is widely discredited. But then again, if you look into the nature of his book "A New Kind of Science", it is a wide departure from any current way of thinking that was published by his own company and as such didn't undergo any peer review. Also, there is some other things about this man that would make anyone skeptical about his "work." But I'll stop here as it's rather OT.
If you want to get into the "Is science a religion?" discussion then read and post to:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=7799
as much has been done there already and it's rather OT here.
Now onto the topic of this thread. *taking a deep breath*
OK, a couple years ago I had this dream. I'll start here as this seems to be the topic at hand. Here's some background.
I was still living at home and we had a dog. As time went on he started to not know where he was, who people were, etc.
It got to the point, where we let him out to go to the bathroom in the backyard and when done, he'd go to the opposite corner of the yard and wait to be let in. He'd also wander around like he had no clue of where he was or where he was going (this would happen before and after he went).
It kept getting worse until I was the only one that could pet him as he'd just run away from other people. He would run into my room (away from a chasing cat) and would let me pet him and then he'd go away.
As my family tends to be loud, during the day I usually have my door closed and as such this happened typically while I was still in bed and as such had to reach off the side of my bed to pet him (th
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Quote:
Why, without religion. . . we'd have to be accountable for our own actions.
Would that really be so bad...I think its time we grew up!!
Quote:
Incidentally, at least one version of the Eden story specifies that the snake wasn't actually Satan; it was just a pre-existing being that he possessed (or "corrupted"). Possibly this reflected a view that the serpent wasn't inherently Evil, but was using knowledge for Evil/destructive ends.
there seems to be some discrepancies in the nature of Lucifer/Satan/snake/, it seems that its not clear if he was really evil...these entities seem to be interchangeable and different at times..which I'm sure comes from editing of the stories from their original context
But the Judeo Christian bible never really states what knowledge was given to Adam & Eve/ Humans...or how that knowledge was used for evil purposes..so it seems just the act alone of giving knowlege..was the reason for the punishment
Quote:
Thus the irony of the whole "religion vs science" debate.
Initially, science (and history, by association) was the anti-religion, intended to look at quantifiable, empirical evidence and form logical conclusions based on that evidence. When evidence is found that doesn't fit the model, then the model is to be disassembled and replaced with a new model that accounts for all the evidence.
I don't think that science alone has all the answers..Religion certainly does not..I think the answers lye somewhere in the middle..( one of the big problems are, nobody wants to admit that there is a middle)I think a big part of the problem is that those who understand science don't really want to take seriously or recognize religion.. in the sense that it is based on some facts. as in being based on a reality...I'm not saying its the same reality that has been handed down and packaged and presented to us....but I do think those stories are based on a reality, I think ultimately that science will come to acknowledging this but its going to take time. since truth is the ultimate goal in science...there is a better chance of that happening versus religious establishment
Its the same problem with Religion only more so, those on that side of the issue don't want to admit that science is a reality as if applies to them ,if they did that, they would have to look at those stories in a more realistic and less Supernatural way and this could be destructive to the establishment..it might lessen their hold or power on their subjects and that's not a chance they want to take..The establishment(religion) reasons for keeping knowledge away is purely selfish and self serving, and all about power
the further you look into the situation of it all the more ironic it becomes.
Just as another poster said...even religion itself comes from science..priest in the ancient days were the ones that were schooled and educated...they were what we would consider scientist today.
If science were to acknowledge based on evidence, that Gods exist..and they are responsible for this thing we call religion, and that their stories and deeds have been recorded throughout the ages and is what mythologies and bibles are based upon..then we would have to seriously look into the nature of what and who those beings are and our relation to them.
I believe that this will happen eventually if we don't kill ourselves 1rst
But this will still be a big problem for the religious establishment who's reason for keeping knowledge secret or away from their subjects is still the same reasons its always been ..they don't want to lose their power and hold over people
Then we would be looking at a real core problem..the problem of perception.. which I believe is the real problem today...how can the truth be turned into a lie.....it can happen when you can take a reality and change it until its unrecognizable..( this can happen in a variety of ways both intentional and unintentional)I think this is largely what's happened with religion so to speak
and would people even accep
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
... dreamed that my dog had ran up to me and let me pet him and then he playfully scampered off which is when I woke up.
... the next night (or the same night after I went back to sleep, can't remember, been some time) I had a similar dream. Except this time the dog, when I went to pet him, became vicious and went to attack me. At which point I woke up rather spooked.
I still don't know if my dog came back to thank me, or if he came back pissed, or if this is just my subconcious trying to deal with the whole situation.
Just my thoughts on your dream. The first dream was your dog, "free spirited", visiting you. The second one was you dreaming, thinking of the prior dream, but your subconcious possibly feeling guilty for having to put him to sleep, created the angry dog.
Keeper of Jayne's goggles. 8)
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This is a really interesting thread. It's great that you guys are so open about discussing this all in depth.
I don't really think I've had paranormal experiences, though my mom has had a bit of objects moving and things turning themselves on. But that was in my Aunt's house...
I do have a house with a high chance of actually being a place to have a paranormal encounter. A friend of mine's mom told me about her cousin that lived in my house before we moved in. They had two sons, one much older than the other. During the winter, the younger son would play in the snow and would occasionally run out onto the lake to get his toys that rolled out onto the frozen ice. If he ever fell through into the water, his brother had a crane (or something similar, I guess) that could get him out, but I don't think it ever happened. Until I guess one day, the younger son's ball rolled out onto the ice, and he ran out to get it. The ice must've been too thin, because he fell through. He drowned because his brother wasn't around to get him out.
Even though they strained the lake and got the body, I guess it would be an interesting place to explore the different things you could do. I've known the little history of my home since I was in 1st grade (7th, now) and I've always wondered about that lake. The previously mentioned friend and I have talked about doing a séance, but I'm not sure if we could ever get around to it. *Shrug*
Just my little random comment. ^_^
"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."
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My comments on religion: I always thought it was funny when religious people said the gods are powerful and unknowable, and then said you have to listen to them b/c they had the gods all figured out and under their control. Talk about a fast circular spin. That's why I like the Tao, it starts out: the path that can be named is not the path.
But I do sometimes wonder if some of the religious myths carry a trace of the human transformation: before and after language (~ a mere 100,000 yrs ago), before and after clothes (~ 50,000 yrs ago). Aborigines talk about the 'dream time', the bible talks about knowledge of good and evil (language?), nakedness and shame, and eviction from Eden (human trek out of Africa?).
As to mysterious experiences, I've been pretty deprived. I have had only a few relatively benign experiences (that I couldn't otherwise explain). One example that happened to me when I was awake: I was sitting with a bunch of undergrad and grad students around a table. Then I sort of went away -
- I was a teenager in a small, low, log cabin (dirt floor, one door, one window with a closed shutter next to the door), sitting on the only chair, facing the fireplace with my back to the door, which was closed. It was at night, it was dark except for the fire, and I was alone. I was waiting for someone to come home, and I had a feeling that I would be ready to peacefully wait for ... as long as it took. Then I had the impression of white wings fluttering and bright sunlight. The strange thing was when I came to, it was like I was being boot-strapped from infancy. There was this sensation that was bothering me, which got resolved into light, then color, then shapes (corners and lines), then identifiable objects (books), and from that, an identity (my books) and knowledge of who I was and where I was. I was looking down, but I KNEW that the person sitting next to me had turned to me and was leaning my way to say something (they'd noticed). So to forestall a conversation I didn't want to get into, I yawned and shifted, and I knew that the person turned back to the rest of the people at the table. I knew what other people at the table were doing as well, and I confirmed it later from a couple of others there. It was as if I could sense their electric fields.
Also, I swear, things turn off and things fall down when I get near them - within 30 feet or so.
SigmaNunki - I'd be willing to get into that.
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You know there are supposed to be three stages of Deities we have gone through. The first stage deity represents power. The classic "thunder god" such as Zeus.
The second stage deity represents justice. The G*d of Judaism working through Moses to free his people from slavery is supposed to be a second stage deity.
The third stage deity is supposed to represent love and acceptance. If there is a 4th stage it hasn't been quantified yet.
Myself, I believe there will come a time when our science and mythology will mesh. Religion and the physical world will become one. Physicists are working on a unified field theory that will explain how any sort of energy (and by extension matter) is related to and interchangeable with a like measure of another form of energy.
Take this a step further from the physical world and into the metaphysical and that is where I am aiming. All energy, matter, metaphysical beings or events are related and fungible. I have never seen a barrier dividing science and religion and I think those that do are being a bit too literal minded, YMMV.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
The third stage deity is supposed to represent love and acceptance. If there is a 4th stage it hasn't been quantified yet.
Serenity.
(
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
I have never seen a barrier dividing science and religion and I think those that do are being a bit too literal minded, YMMV.
Aside from the two being completely different, your right. I'll only talk about energy as that seems to be the topic.
Science is a description of what engery is and does by our empirical studies. We then create theory on it and predict more. The cycle continues. It also studies how it might work and be controlled.
Religion is the *belief* of what it all *means*. By definition this is outside the realm of science.
What you are talking about is metaphysics, not science. Very *very* different.
It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It just means that they are different. Some would say complementary. Basically, just because things run in parallel doesn't mean that they are equal. And just because some things use the same word, doesn't mean they are the same thing (ie energy).
As an example, if I hold a coaster at 1 meter above the ground it will have a certain amount of potential energy. If I let it go it's potential will become kinetic energy until it hits the ground. At that time that energy will be transformed into heat, compression of the ground, etc.
This is not the same "energy" that people talk about when they say, "Let's send healing energy to someone that is sick."
Things can be very differnt when spoken about in different contexts.
progress update: The mailing list is almost setup and will most likely be done tonight
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
The third stage deity is supposed to represent love and acceptance. If there is a 4th stage it hasn't been quantified yet.
Serenity.
(
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
Awesome!
I likes
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
I have never seen a barrier dividing science and religion and I think those that do are being a bit too literal minded, YMMV.
Aside from the two being completely different, your right. I'll only talk about energy as that seems to be the topic.
Science is a description of what engery is and does by our empirical studies. We then create theory on it and predict more. The cycle continues. It also studies how it might work and be controlled.
Religion is the *belief* of what it all *means*. By definition this is outside the realm of science.
What you are talking about is metaphysics, not science. Very *very* different.
It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It just means that they are different. Some would say complementary. Basically, just because things run in parallel doesn't mean that they are equal. And just because some things use the same word, doesn't mean they are the same thing (ie energy).
As an example, if I hold a coaster at 1 meter above the ground it will have a certain amount of potential energy. If I let it go it's potential will become kinetic energy until it hits the ground. At that time that energy will be transformed into heat, compression of the ground, etc.
This is not the same "energy" that people talk about when they say, "Let's send healing energy to someone that is sick."
Things can be very differnt when spoken about in different contexts.
progress update: The mailing list is almost setup and will most likely be done tonight
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
Sorry Sigmanuki, this is exactly what I am talking about when I say being too literally minded. Yes, there is energy built up in picking up that coaster. And dropping it releases that energy and the resulting impact (assuming you drop it in a gravity well) results in thermal energy, and kinetic energy transfer. But if I unexpectedly liberate all the atomic bonds in that coaster when you pick it up there will be a mighty big bang and resulting kinetic, thermal and photonic release as well as higher order radiation.
At one time the church refused to believe there was such a thing as vacuum, the prosecuted people as heretics and blasphemers for belief or investigation of the phenomenon. They were being WAY too literally minded. More to the point they were clinging to an outmoded world view. As science advances, the world as we perceive it changes as well.
What I am saying is that one day our science may find a way to explain how events replay themselves or how a person or animal may linger or or return after their death. At one time people looked at the veins in a tree's leaf and saw the hand of God. Our science is advanced enough that it can tell us that those patterns are a circulatory system and describe their function and what they carry, even what the cells do with them and deeper, how the cells work. This doesn't take away the wonder of that leaf, it amplifies it. I see the hand of God more clearly with each baby step forward our science advances.
Doctor Duncan Macdougal, at the turn of the 20th century, tried to weigh the soul. He performed a series of experiments where he placed moribund patients on a bed sized scale and when they expired their weights decreased according to the scale. His experiment was not scientifically valid due to limitations of equipment and small sample size, but he did record a weight change of about 3/4 of an ounce. I consider this an oddity, nothing more. But I wonder why nobody has tried to repeat this experiment?
Science, like religion has its adherents and defenders of the faith. Like religion it also has beliefs and persecutes those that challenge its established notions. I am saying that you have to remain open to the fantastic possibilities hiding in plain sight.
I have a theory that the spiritual and scientific world will someday
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Science, like religion has its adherents and defenders of the faith. Like religion it also has beliefs and persecutes those that challenge its established notions. I am saying that you have to remain open to the fantastic possibilities hiding in plain sight.
I have a theory that the spiritual and scientific world will someday meet, that's all.
I wrote a fair post basically proving that this is wrong. But, whatever. If you want to discuss this then post in the appropriate area (it's OT here). I've linked the thread above. Read the posts I as well as others have made and continue it if you want. The discussion is more towards the bottom of the thread.
Basically, you are confusing science, religion and metaphysics. They *are* different. And I'm not even sure if you have a accurate view of science in general by some of the things you've posted. And some of them are actually wrong.
Your *conjecture* is interesting and could one day be true. But it is conjecture, and *metaphysics* and doesn't fit the established current definitions of either field. And that is what you must realize.
EDIT:
I have set up the mailing list but am unable to iron out the last wrinkles as I'm too tired. So, it'll have to wait till tommorow.
The problems are with the moderation of the emails sent to the list. I'm doing this so that people don't have to worry about ridicul, etc.
Sorry, my self imposed deadline of tonight is unreachable. But, it should be running by tommorow afternoon... I hope
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sigmanuki:
I wrote a fair post basically proving that this is wrong. But, whatever. If you want to discuss this then post in the appropriate area (it's OT here). I've linked the thread above. Read the posts I as well as others have made and continue it if you want. The discussion is more towards the bottom of the thread.
Basically, you are confusing science, religion and metaphysics. They *are* different. And I'm not even sure if you have a accurate view of science in general by some of the things you've posted. And some of them are actually wrong.
Your *conjecture* is interesting and could one day be true. But it is conjecture, and *metaphysics* and doesn't fit the established current definitions of either field. And that is what you must realize.
Actually Sigmanuki I found your first post insultingly dismissive. You completely missed the entire point of the paragraph you attacked. When I tried to point out you were illustrating a quality that I had identified as personally disagreeable to me you seemed to take offense. Sorry about that, the world is full of folks who don't see it your way. You want to quibble over definitions instead of the thought being offered for consideration.
Additionally, your argument about religion and metaphysics being completely different is falacious. Metaphysics and religion go hand in hand. Aside from studying the nature of being metaphysics attempts to study the nature of God. And since religions started out as science, an attempt to explain the function of the world around those people. In the intervening centuries religion has gotten much closer to parapsychology. Doesn't that even suggest there might be some connection? You seem cemented in judeo-christian dogma. Again, open your mind.
And since you love to harp on scientific method, let me ask you this; what we are doing here is sharing stories of paranormal events. Aren't we trying to make sense of the world around us? Isn't that science by your own definition earlier in this thread? How can parapsychology, metaphysics and religion be science in your rational, compartmentalized world?
After reading that other well and truly hijacked thread I see this is ground you've been over before. A discussion is an exchange of idea where you consider the other party's point, not you beating someone over the head with yours. You should try it sometime.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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Hi Hardware,
Generally I agree with your posts, but I would like to address the question of 'what is science'.
The problem with 'large' definitions "X is attempting to explain the world around you" is that sometimes valid distinctions are lost.
For example, I remember watching a small child 'get' language: she pointed to a small black paint spot on the floor and said "Dah?" to which I said "Spot". Then she excitedly pointed to a small nail hole in the wall saying "Dah?" to which I said "Hole". Then she scurried to the patio and put a small finger down next to an ant crawling on the cement, said "Dah?" and I said "Ant." And so on. BTW this really happened. It was exciting to watch her comprehend that these 'small dark things' with significant similarities WERE different and had different names.
And so I believe it is true of religion, metaphysics, and science.
I think SigmaNunki is not a disbeliever in the paranormal, but is also a scientist trying to draw dintinctions between the various human endeavors: religion, science, and metaphysics. I don't quite know where the insistence comes from, but as a scientist myself, I understand the position (though I don't think I am so insistent).
I see (this is just my personal observation) an underlying thread in the postings, which is, to prevent non-scientists - who don't do science and don't know the process - from defining 'what is science'.
My personal perspective about why it is so important to maintain these vital distinctions is that without them, the battle in the classrooms between science and religion masquerading as science, is lost.
You may be aware of the education 'evolution v creation' debate in the US. Somewhere I read that 55% of people 'believe' in creation (this is our first and final form, made by god), while only 40% think evolution is a viable theory. (That's scary, and the state of US education is going to be one reason why the US economy will be superceded: like Pakistan, its madrasses, and its economy - but I digress.) And in some states there is a special sticker on the front of science books with a disclaimer that evolution is only a theory.
Two things come to mind: 1) ALL scienctific concepts are only theories - gravity is only a theory, the atomic model is only a theory, light as a wave is only a theory etc, but other theories do not seem to need disclaimers, and 2) science is not about belief. You do not look at one version and another version and decide in which you will 'believe'.
I can't speak for science, or scientists, but I am acutely aware of the limitations of science. Not just because human perceptions are physically limited in scale, energy range etc, but b/c our modeling capability is pre-formed in our primate brain, and our language and culture structure both skew our perceptions and our interpretations (the alpha male theory of society as a failed model comes to mind).
In some sense there is a certain level of 'belief' at the bedrock of science, what SignyM pointed out as 'a priori' assumptions. There is a real world 'out there' beyond our skin, it works through consistent processes, and these processes can be addressed through observation and logic; and probably others I haven't mentioned. But that doesn't make science a 'religion' per se. It puts the explination of our world in OUR laps, available for formulation and testing. Etc. Etc. I'm sure you realize that science is a 'test to destruction' process for ideas.
Anyway, sorry to ramble, and I hope you don't feel as if people are trying to gang up on you. But I think it is important to understand that science, religion, and metaphysics are unique from each other; that they all contribute to human thought; and that one does not perform the function of the other.
Thanks.
Rue
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Hey, everyone! It's funny, this really ought to be my favorite thread on the board and I should have posted ten times by now, but I'm finding it hard to find my way in. For me there's a heavy undertone of tragedy to a lot of the stories I've read here. Experiences and visions that could form the basis of a deeply spiritual life full of knowledge and transformative power, instead get tossed in the dustbin of "isn't that weird?"
The other thing is, I'm writing a book about this stuff (or should be 
), so whole chapters will spring to mind from reading one sentence! Talk about your bottleneck! Please forgive me if I ramble!
PirateJenny, what if that pyramid dream of yours were a vision of a real life? What if your parents had sent you as a little girl to study with a shaman to bring the full meaning of the old man's measage to light? What if that shaman could have taught you how to travel to the pyramid whenever you wished and study with the old man every night (if you could handle it)? Where would your life have gone? What would you be doing now?
ConnorFlynn, I'm so sorry about that whole "demonboy" thing. Just the idea that your psychologist told her gorram son about your case, floors me and puts me into a minor league rage. That is a serious breach of ethics and she should have lost her license. What the 
was she telling her school-age son about one of her patients for??? But as you say, it was the 70's and those were some dark damn times. You see, consciously or not, she was doing her job as one of the guardians of orthodoxy and consensual reality by stigmatizing you and setting your perception up for ridicule. There is nothing more destructive.
I wish I could turn all the "could very well be's" and "in some way maybe's" in these stories to "you better believe it's" and "absolutely's." Seriously, all o' ya's, this stuff is for real. Each recurrance of a dream is a chance, a doorway waiting to be walked through. Before you go to sleep at night, talk to your dreams, ask for the one's you want, don't take no for an answer, and never give up because you're "just being silly!"
A few notes on snakes: The snake/serpent/dragon in ancient times was associated with female power and wisdom. One of the fundamental missions of patriarchy has always been to discredit and demonize female power and wisdom. As major patriarchal religions go, the Catholic Church has a remarkably, I won't say balanced, but at least semi-respectful relationship to the feminine. No other Christian faith now extant venerates the Mother of God as the Church does Mary. Of course, Mary and Eve are both names stollen from Goddesses the Church wanted to co-opt. In Catholic dogma there's a phrase: felix culpa or "happy fault" used to refer to that whole apple eating venture. See, to the Catholics, strictly speaking, eating the apple was the best thing that ever happened to us, because it was the inaugural act of free will and gave us the power to choose God and not just bask in his love like tiny children. The story isn't saying that we're meant to remain stupid and ignorant. It's about that wish we all carry that we we could stay little beloved children forever, but that ain't part of the plan. The snake played an innevitable role, and Eve had the personal courage to challenge God's authority and think for herself.
Quote:
Ouija Boards are the spiritual equivalent of opening all the door and windows of your house and yelling "PARTY!!! FREE BEER!!!"
Priceless! Absolutely! As I understand it, disincarnates gain some kind of sustainance from the emotions of us mortals. The tactic I've observed on more than one occasion and heard countless stories about goes like this: malevolent spirit tells you a bunch of uncanny stuff to get you hooked and then when you've given up all your skepticism and discernment this spirit starts telling you that it's the ghost of Ted Bundy (or some other notorious bogeyman) and you're going to die a horrible death. Emotional feeding frenzy ensues. It's a m
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Just to lob something into the discussion... then I goota go and play tennis, get exercised and all that...
Scientists are beginning to study the brains of people who have unusual experiences or who are trained in various forms of meditation. There are certain types of experiences, such as deja vu, jamais vu, or extreme depersonalization, that are already known to be caused by temporal lobe seizures. THere was a recent report of a person undergoing neurosurgery whose "out-of-body" neurons were stimulated while the surgeons were probing for functional areas. (It happened repeatedly, with each stimulation) I think it was in the deep temporal lobe. Buddhist monks who are deeply trained in a type of meditation aimed at increasing inner peace and outer awareness show a very different pattern of brainwaves (higher frequency than nml, and in different areas) than "regular" people. And certain type of manias (orographia) which tend to focus on religious or spiritual themes, are also a form of seizure. Even that "moving towards the light" that dying people have reported is hypothesized to be a form of neural shutdown.
Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Sorry about that, the world is full of folks who don't see it your way. You want to quibble over definitions instead of the thought being offered for consideration.
And you don't seem to realize that the world is full of people that consider science as a religion because people don't understand science.
They take at face value what the religous experts say about religion, but fail in this regard when it comes to science. Because of course, religous people and laymen know more about science than the scientists, right?
Case and point. If you ask any established scientist (the guys with the white hair) they'll tell you exactly how limited science is and exactly how much we really know (which is not much to put it mildly).
Science doesn't claim to have the answers, religion does. That is one of the *many* major differences. You are talking about philosophy, metaphysics, *not* science.
About the definitions, see below.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Additionally, your argument about religion and metaphysics being completely different is falacious. Metaphysics and religion go hand in hand.
Metaphysics: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Metaphysics
Religion: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion
Perhaps you should look to find out what things *really* are before you start spouting off. They *are* different, *very* different.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
And since religions started out as science, an attempt to explain the function of the world around those people.
You have it backwards. Science started out as religion. Or more correctly, science grew out of religion.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
In the intervening centuries religion has gotten much closer to parapsychology. Doesn't that even suggest there might be some connection? You seem cemented in judeo-christian dogma. Again, open your mind.
Parapsychology: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parapsychology
What?
And for the record, since you didn't actually read what I've written on this topic before, I would consider my path *far* closer to Wicca, Shinto, Buddhism, etc than *any* Judeo-Christian religion.
My mind *is* open, but I would think by way of what you are typing here that *yours* in not, nor have you done your homework when it comes to such matters as the links I've provided proves.
Don't speak in general terms if you cannot support a general argument.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
And since you love to harp on scientific method, let me ask you this; what we are doing here is sharing stories of paranormal events. Aren't we trying to make sense of the world around us? Isn't that science by your own definition earlier in this thread? How can parapsychology, metaphysics and religion be science in your rational, compartmentalized world?
LOL, you have no idea what my world is like. You are making assumptions about it instead of asking questions. Also, this thread isn't a scientific endeavour. It's sharing experiences, which is rather different.
Of course I (as *everyone*) has put some things in little boxes. But, I have *many* things that are in the "unexplained" box or things that are in the "hope" box.
The problem with your argument is that you have made up your own definitions for these things whereas I've gone out and found that actual defintions and used those.
I've spoken to experts, read books, etc that are in these fields and I've *listened* to them. This is how I've come to my conclusions. I gather as much data as I can and conclude from there. From what you've said, I'd gather that you haven't.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
After reading that other well and truly hijacked thread I see this is ground you've been over before. A discussion is an exchange of idea where you consider the other party's point, not you beating someone over the head with yours. You shouldNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
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Hi HK!
Glad to see you here!
(that's all)
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Hardware wrote:
Quote:
Religion and the physical world will become one. Physicists are working on a unified field theory that will explain how any sort of energy (and by extension matter) is related to and interchangeable with a like measure of another form of energy.
are you talking about spirtual matters or Religious matters....because I don't see how religion and the physical world can become one
religion and spirtuality(metaphyscial arent' the same)
Judiasm Buddism..Muslim...Christanity .... Paganism Zoarosterism Hinduism based on stories handed down from the past..(mytholoy/history)..
those are religions
so they can't join with the physical world
I see this as part of the larger problem..people lumping religion in with spirtuality
we are spirtual beings..our spirt is something that is in us its apart of our make up..its not something that can be taken away..or exsist outside of ourselves..its inside..so the spirt or spituality does not need religion to exsist
Thats why in my previous post, I said we are more likely to find out more about the soul/spirt metaphysical world from science....then we are from the religious establishment..science ultimate goal is to find the truth
The goal of the religious establishment is not so pure..so we as a speices aren't going to find any real answers there..just more of the same old same old!!
the metaphysical spirtual world might become more tangiable at some point in time..as science becomes more focused and knowlegable about it
religion is already a physical thing its something that we help create...
so if you could clarify....
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Quote:
Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.
Religion is all about power, its about giving up power and giving away power its about looking outside of ones self, for answers instead of looking in, its about giving up respossiblity, and putting that respossiblity onto something outside of ourselves
spirtual matters do not have to be tied to any religion unless the person whoes having such an experience wants to believe that something outside of himself is responssible for the experiences
but we are physical beings we do live in this physical,material world..and our five senses are grounded in this world, totally shaping our perceptions of our world...the brain is part of the physical body...and could very well be an antenna to the metaphysical world..certain drugs could open up path ways to other senses that we don't use..doesn't mean that these experiences aren't happening
I think this is where science often makes its mistake by assuming that if it can't be readily explained..then its little more then a brain glitch
If our spirts survive after our physical body dies, then it would make sense that apart of us, the spirtual part would operate in a totally diffrent way. thats not bound by the laws of the material world..ways that we can't explain at this point in time..but perhaps will be able to in the future
I think we have these experiences to let us know to remind us that we are more then what we see..or appear..we are more then these bodies we inhabit
we as a speices may not understand pyschic ablities or how it works..but we know that it exsist..that it is an abilty that people have..as I'm sure there are other abilites people have , such as moving objects with thoughts etc..etc..
ther are more then just the five senses that we depend so heavily on that grounds our perceptions, just because we only use five doesn't mean there aren't more that may operate on another level and open the door to other worlds that we can't precieve...
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RUE Wrote:
Quote:
My personal perspective about why it is so important to maintain these vital distinctions is that without them, the battle in the classrooms between science and religion masquerading as science, is lost.
I think this is so important..Religion, Science, Metaphysical
are 3 seperate things
religion is a belife system , science is the study of our physical world and how it operates and to use and manipulate that knowlege for our use, the metaphysical world has yet to be explained
I think people get confused and its easy to see why religion tries to take on science and the metaphysical usually with some supernatural bent
science tries to stay grounded in the physical...and does so for the most part and tries to ignore the metaphysical..which becomes a problem..because as spirtual beings we are operating on two levels the physical and the spirtual, often times when faced with the paranormal metaphysical..science tends to chalk it up to a brain glitch..instead of taking it more seriously.
so yes ..
Is it any wonder that Regilion as been able to take spirtual truths and twist and turn them for their benifit
But unlike religion science readily admits that it does not have all the answers, and their is much to be learned, This is why Science is our best hope ....but its science that is going to have to start laying the ground work...
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Quote:
PirateJenny, I don't know where to begin with the Lucifer stuff. A truly inspired summary of the Lucifer Rebelion, its success and consequences for the human race can be found in a book called "Nothing in This Book is True, but It's Exactly How Things Are" by Bob Frissell. I just gotta say that people do know how the pyramids were made and the history of our race is available. I'd be willing to bet that the old man from your dreamlife is one of them that knows. You just can't get this stuff from a book or take a course in it. The first thing you gotta learn is discernment and cultivate an unwavering faith in your intuition. You've got to got to find that old man again and tell us what he said!
I'll definetly check out the book thanks
I've wondered about that recurring dream since it started...if I ever have it again, I hope I can remember what the old man said!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I think this is where science often makes its mistake by assuming that if it can't be readily explained..then its little more then a brain glitch
I'd hate to do this as I agree with a lot of what you say, but this statement is rather inaccurate.
It isn't so much that science ignores this, it's that it isn't reproducable. Which is what science is based on. ie I come up with theory X, which I then do experiments to prove. If I am succesful, I publish the results and then other people will do the same experiment testing the results as well as others making other experiments to test the same theory. If all goes well then it is accepted and the cycle continues.
The problem with the experiences described here, is that they are not reproducable. They are different every time. Thus evading science's methodes.
Perhaps at one point in the future science will stumble across something that will lead in this direction. But until then, this is all *way* outside the realm of science.
There is also the idea of Achems razor...
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Just to lob something into the discussion... then I goota go and play tennis, get exercised and all that...
Scientists are beginning to study the brains of people who have unusual experiences or who are trained in various forms of meditation. There are certain types of experiences, such as deja vu, jamais vu, or extreme depersonalization, that are already known to be caused by temporal lobe seizures. THere was a recent report of a person undergoing neurosurgery whose "out-of-body" neurons were stimulated while the surgeons were probing for functional areas. (It happened repeatedly, with each stimulation) I think it was in the deep temporal lobe. Buddhist monks who are deeply trained in a type of meditation aimed at increasing inner peace and outer awareness show a very different pattern of brainwaves (higher frequency than nml, and in different areas) than "regular" people. And certain type of manias (orographia) which tend to focus on religious or spiritual themes, are also a form of seizure. Even that "moving towards the light" that dying people have reported is hypothesized to be a form of neural shutdown.
Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.
Signy! "Brain glitch?" Ouch! Seriously, you can be pretty cutting sometimes, you know that? You gotta understand though, from where I sit, your comments on the spirit world and temporal lobe seizures would be pretty insulting if they weren't so...well, silly really.
It's like somebody trying to tell me that Spain doesn't exist because they've never been there. Oh, and then they go on to say that none of the people they respect (who haven't been there either, of course) also deny Spain's existence. Well, I've been there. Several people who have contributed to this thread have been to this "Spain" I'm talking about as well. You seem pretty closed to the idea of "Spain." Is that true?
Yes, there are brain malfunctions that resemble in some ways some aspects of paranormal experience, but an actual experience--such as ConnorFlynn described--is a lot more complicated and coherent than a "brain glitch." To return to my light-hearted metaphor, it's as if my Spain-denying friend tried to prove her point by saying that airports aren't even really airports at all, they're actually just malls. She shows me a picture of a mall and a picture of an airport terminal and says, "See, see, the same!" Well, yeah, it's the same, except for the runways and plains and these two tickets to Spain in my pocket!
Here's a thing: one thing that paranormal experiences have in common, what basically renders them "para" in the first place, is that they are all what I would call phenomenologically "shy." More often than not they involve an encounter with non-human consciousness. This non-human consciousness I would characterize as "choosy." These things don't just manifest for anybody. And they don't have a schedule. People try to "believe" in them and wish them into manifesting, but all too often that just gets them mired in illusion.
So this Spain of mine is "shy." The harsh light of day sends it into hiding. And in the dark of night, of course, it's too dark to see anything. The best time to see "Spain" then, is at Twilight. All the drugs and other devices used by seers over the centuries are designed not to create a "Spain" but to create a kind of mental twilight where Spain is visible. It is a comparatively susceptible state of mind (you're high!), but it is not mere abandonment of reason to the seer. That's why seers practice meditations and such, so that they can exercise the extraordinary discernment needed to see clearly in the twilight.
So, in a way, your "brain glitch" also creates this mental twilight. All of these things
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SigmaNunki wrote:
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It isn't so much that science ignores this, it's that it isn't reproducable. Which is what science is based on. ie I come up with theory X, which I then do experiments to prove. If I am succesful, I publish the results and then other people will do the same experiment testing the results as well as others making other experiments to test the same theory. If all goes well then it is accepted and the cycle continues.
The problem with the experiences described here, is that they are not reproducable. They are different every time. Thus evading science's methodes.
even when I wrote that, I knew it wasn't totally accurate..so I'm going to wax a little.
There is a part of the science community that is reactionary..and what I mean by that is that since the Rennisance days when coming out of the Dark Ages where religion was such a stifling and intergrated part of peoples lives, people couldn't sneeze without there being some religious reason for it.everything had a religious bent, or could be explained or reasoned away by relgion.
The Scientific community took on a reactionary stance to anything that might be misconstured or taken as religion..and that is one of the main reasons why the scientific community does not actively focus on the spirtual/ metaphysical part of life( not to say that there aren't scientist out there who don't have an intrest, but for the most part paranormal spirtual metaphysical matters are not highly looked on so to speak)
but no matter how much the scientific community might like to shuck those matters off, they can't because that is the duelity of our nature..its who we are..
I do believe that in time the scientific community will move away from this reactionary way ..but its not going to happen overnight..scientist aren't going to have a choice, we are spirtual beings in a physical body in the material world there is a duelity there..and by just focusing on one aspect the physical, it is not going to provide the answers nor will the puzzle ever be complete if they do so they will be forced to deal with it eventually one way or another.
Not to say that some things aren't brain glitch's to use that as an example, not every experience that a person has is spirtual metaphysical in nature..but there are a percentage of them that are..and ignoring that or not dealing with it or tossing it aside , isn't going to make it not so..eventually it will have to be dealt with..so I don't exactly know if ignoring is the right word..when it comes to the scientic community, its not even so much that its not being ignored as much as it is just being kept quite , because if its not reproducable then whats the point.
But you can see how this reactionary attitude leave people feeling there is much left to be desired, it just doesn't cut it, telling someone they just had a brain glitch doesn't add up..Its a very glib and sort of arrogant way of dismissing their experience because it can't be reproduced by any current methods or explained..right!!
(There has to be an awareness and an acknowlegement of the spirtual metaphysical, so that everything won't be chalked up to something physical )
Its really sad..because we need science ..we need you guys..and we need you badly
Is it any wonder that people turn to religion, and what a disservice that is, because nothing will screw you up faster and have you more confused then religion.
Its not exspected of the scientific community to have all the answers....this should be a learning process as much as much as it can..we want and need to understand..but what we do need is a concentrated effort and acknowlegement..we don't need your reaction to past events.
I think most people turn to religion, not just out of ignorance and fear ..but also because there is little else to help them to truly understand these things.
We are spirtual beings..but in this civilzation we go about our lives somewhat disconneted from that part of ourselves, we don't really talk about these things we just keep it inside we
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@PirateJenny:
Not to be snide here, but I'm not really sure that you read my post, or at least the part you quoted. It is my belief that you've become reactionary in your response because I've taken a different stance than you have. That or we are having one hell of a time getting across to one another My stance in one sentence is at the end of the post.
But, to be certain, I think that one day we'll have it figured this all out one way or another. But, I do know that people *are* doing this research. Don't make the mistake that because it isn't in "mainstream science" that it isn't being looked at.
One of the problems that you don't seem to be acknowledging is reproducibility. As stated before, this is the reason why most people don't take such things seriously. Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.
So, if you have a way to make anything in this realm reproducible, then in all seriousness, I'd like to hear it. I'd like to try it and see if I can do it. If I can, I'll get my wife to try too. If we can then we can try to get others (ones with open minds) to do it to. Once something like this happens then, and only then will it be persuded in earnest by the scientific community.
Basically,
all attempts to reproduce this have yet to be successful. Change that, you create a new field of science.
And yes, this should be talked about more
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Quote:
@PirateJenny:
Not to be snide here, but I'm not really sure that you read my post, or at least the part you quoted. It is my belief that you've become reactionary in your response because I've taken a different stance than you have. That or we are having one hell of a time getting across to one another My stance in one sentence is at the end of the post.
I read all of your post and I apolojise if I didn't make myself clear, I have no problem with you having a diffrent stance and I welcome anything you have to say on the subject because I find it interesting, and respect your opinion, so I'll try to address the issue as best I can.
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One of the problems that you don't seem to be acknowledging is reproducibility. As stated before, this is the reason why most people don't take such things seriously. Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.
I understand what your saying about reproducibilty, and that these experiences aren't reproducable at least at this time..I understand that..and although my response was reactionary, it wasn't to your post...it was to the scientific community as a whole.
I did acknowlege that there are scientist doing research on this subject..of course they are, but I guess what I should have just come out and said was, yes even though its not reproducable..why isn't it main stream..actually my whole post was about the reason why its not mainstream, and I could very well be wrong but I'm of the opinion that it has less to do with reproducablity and more to do with reaction, and thats because the scientific community has taken a reactionary stance to anything that might be miscontrued as religion..wether or not its reproducable or not(because in the past such matters were a high priority to the scientific community)
I understand that your saying unless the scientific community has something to show, the public, that says ..yep..see here..this is true because look we can prove it, that they don't want to come out.
But don't we have to start somewhere!!
as you know and say... this subject is being researched,that being so.. any light that can be shed on it is just as great a benifit to mankind as knowlege of a cure for cancer..more so even.
the point I was trying to make was..wether or not any of the paranormal metaphysical experiences can be reproduced or not, its still something thats going to have to be dealt with..there is no getting around it because its here it exsist..and a way to start doing that is acknowleging it and being aware of it, thats laying the ground work and giving a foundation to build upon..
If the scientific community did this, maybe more people would talk about it and feel ok talking about it and most people would know that this stuff isn't uncommon..and we might be one step closer to figuring this stuff out.
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Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.
I'm just a layman, you are the scientist, but I wasn't aware of limitations being put on science, I always thought science was about knowlege and truth..and as a scientist you went wherever that took you , I didn't know as a scientist you said I'm going to limit myself to this or that..
I always thought if something did not work then you searched for something that did work, you didn't say no I can't do this or test that because its outside of the box..no pun intended but I thought science was about going where no one has gone before..if you have to go down the yellow brick road to find answers..then thats what you did..if thats where you have to go to prove something or find answers thats what you did!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Basically,
all attempts to reproduce this have yet to be successful. Change that, you create a new field of science.
Rupert Sheldrake is doing all kinds of research with all kinds of repeatable results about ESP in humans and animals, but he is totally marginalized outside the "new age" community and is laughed at. The theory that humans went through a semiaquatic stage of developement during the "missing link" period is overwhelmingly supported by morphology and no one's heard of it. Chromozonal evidence that the oldest humans were from Australia is marginalized because of the Leakey Foundation and common prejudice that the most primitive humans must have been African.
No, the scientific method does not prescribe these prejudices, but human ego and rigidity do. Science can be used just like any other institution to control ideas and information and make the powerful more so.
Why are we still talking about this?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Here's a nice, repeating event to be investigated. I've seen the light at Maco station myself. This light appeared frequently enough to get the railroad to change procedures and use two signal lights at this station instead of the usual one. A brief search of the internet for "Maco Light" will bring you dozens of web pages and the Maco light story has made it into several books about hauntings due to it's steadfast repetition and longevity.
http://www.invink.com/x309.html
North Carolina Ghosts & Legends
by Nancy Roberts
The Light at Maco Station - Over the years this flickering light has eluded all attempts at explanation
There was fog in the low places and out of the blackness overhead fell a fine, steady rain. It made little ponds of the ruts in the lonely country road.
Hugged by scrub pines, vines, and underbrush, the road straggled for perhaps a hundred yards. Then the woods stopped abruptly and there lay the wet, softly gleaming rails at Maco Station.
Maco lies fourteen miles west of Wilmington on the Wilmington-Florence-Augusta line of what is now the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad. It is today much as it must have looked to Joe Baldwin years ago.
Joe was conductor of a train headed toward Wilmington that rainy night of 1867. Just fourteen miles from home his thoughts turned to his family. Would his wife be up to greet him?
Even his train sounded as if it were glad to be on the home stretch. There was something comforting about the chugging noise of its wood-burning engine. For the moment Joe forgot the shower of soot and sparks which be battled daily to keep his coaches clean.
It was time now to go through the cars ahead and call out the station. He glanced proudly at his gold railroad man's watch. The hands of the watch read three minutes 'til midnight. Just about on time.
He tugged at the door at the end of the car. The night was so dark he couldn't see the outline of the car ahead. As he managed to open the door, he swung his lantern a little ahead of his body. The foot outstretched to step forward stopped in midair. Here was no car ahead! He was in the last coach of the train and it had come uncoupled.
Panic surged through him and for a moment he could hardly get his breath. His first thought was of the train which there was a wild car in front of them.
He raced back through the car. With one mighty heave he wrenched open the heavy door at the rear and was out on the platform. He felt his own coach losing speed and as it did he saw the huge, fiery eye of the train which followed him.
He began to swing his lantern back and forth, back and forth, more furiously as the distance between him and the advancing train grew smaller.
The pursuing train plunged on through the night, its cyclops eye burning balefully. With terrific impact it hurtled into the rear of the runaway coach completely demolishing it. In the collision Joe's head was severed from his body.
A witness said that his lantern waved desperately until the last, then rose in the air, and inscribing a wide arc, landed in a nearby swamp. It flickered there for a moment and then the flame continued burning clear and strong.
Not long afterward lovers strolling near the railroad late at night reported seeing a strange light along the tracks. It would start about a mile from Maco Station--just a flicker over the left rail. Then it would advance, glowing brighter as it came up the track. Faster and faster it seemed to come, swinging from side to side. There would be a pause and it would start backwards, for a moment hanging suspended where it had first appeared, and then it would be gone.
Watchers over the years have said that the light is Joe Baldwin's lantern and that Joe is hunting for his head. Once the light was gone for over a month but it always comes back. Joe seems to prefer dark, rainy nights.
After roads were built in the area, skeptics maintained that the light was merely a reflection. Several years ago all traffic in the area was blocked off while a group of observers watched for the light. Joe ap
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Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I read all of your post and I apolojise if I didn't make myself clear, I have no problem with you having a diffrent stance and I welcome anything you have to say on the subject because I find it interesting, and respect your opinion, so I'll try to address the issue as best I can.
I'm starting to have flash-backs of a thread I was involved in alittle while ago where everyone in it agreed, but no-one seemed to noticed and as such much arguing insued. It was amusing to find out and good that we notice it here before we got to that level
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I understand that your saying unless the scientific community has something to show, the public, that says ..yep..see here..this is true because look we can prove it, that they don't want to come out.
But don't we have to start somewhere!!
In my experience talking with those in the scientific community, they basically state that there is no conlusive evidence for this phenonima, so they are skeptical. Since this is true, I don't blame them.
But then again, in my experience in the same conversation, they state that they think that something along these lines is most likely true. But without supporting evidence...
The problem with starting research without being able to reproduce the result is, how do you know you're results are valid? Even if you know that some are, how do you know which ones are and which ones aren't? If you don't know, how can you even suggest that any results you get are anywhere near valide? You could say that you *think* that they are 85% accurate, but how do you know?
If you start from this point, you don't have science, it's something else. And this is what charletons play on.
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
as you know and say... this subject is being researched,that being so.. any light that can be shed on it is just as great a benifit to mankind as knowlege of a cure for cancer..more so even.
I hope that's hyperbole.
Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
the point I was trying to make was..wether or not any of the paranormal metaphysical experiences can be reproduced or not, its still something thats going to have to be dealt with..there is no getting around it because its here it exsist..and a way to start doing that is acknowleging it and being aware of it, thats laying the ground work and giving a foundation to build upon..
But that ground *cannot* be shaky. It must be hard, solid ground. This is not obtainible at this point in time.
The problem of people talking about it is starting to fade away and this thread is proof of that. Time will erode this barrier further and before long, you'll only remember it existance. These societal things always take time. Hell the woman thing still isn't completely gone (better or worse depending on your location).
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Originally posted by piratejenny:Quote:
Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.
I'm just a layman, you are the scientist, but I wasn't aware of limitations being put on science
[snip]
There are *tonnes* of limitations that science has. It isn't that we say, no I can't do that, it's just a by-product of the method.
We just can't go off and think, I'm going to prove x today. We have to build on already established facts and then conjecture test ad nauseam. In time we get to a place. I think you'd be surprise just how slow things progress at the fundamental level.
But that's another descussion.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Rupert Sheldrake
Thanks for the name. Found his site and will look at it. Should be interesting by any account.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The theory that humans went through a semiaquatic stage of developement during the "missing link" period is overwhelmingly supported by morphology and no one's heard of it. Chromozonal evidence that the oldest humans were from Australia is marginalized because of the Leakey Foundation and common prejudice that the most primitive humans must have been African.
I think a lot of this is that people get set in there ways. They seek out and find something to explain something. When they find that explination they stop seeking. Which is how I'd explain the no-one hear about it. Plus the fact that you *really* have to be looking to find the new ideas.
But then again, when it comes to people coming from Africa or Australia, why can't it be both?
I believe that people become attached to some idea to the point that they there thinking becomes, I'm right and you're wrong. They don't even think of the possibility of the solution being somewhere in the middle. Something to ponder anyway
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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
No, the scientific method does not prescribe these prejudices, but human ego and rigidity do. Science can be used just like any other institution to control ideas and information and make the powerful more so.
Well the true scientist will not behave in such a way. But unfortunatly that person is getting rarer and rarer as time passes. I blame (in part) the downfall of the education system. It's a worldwide phenomina and it's getting worse.
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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why are we still talking about this?
People still have misconceptions of what science and such are. I don't think it'll end here either.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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@Hardware:
Have there been any attempts at capturing it on tape? Such as setting up a series of cameras along where the tracks were?
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think a lot of this is that people get set in there ways. They seek out and find something to explain something. When they find that explination they stop seeking. Which is how I'd explain the no-one hear about it. Plus the fact that you *really* have to be looking to find the new ideas.
Dude, do you realize that you're describing religious conversion! "When they find that explaination they stop seeking!" I think this is the problem. Religiosity (in the sense of a need to find answers and beat people over the head with your results) is stronger and more deep-seated in the human psyche than the truly scientific view.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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@Sigmanuki,
Not to my knowledge. I know Hans Holzer, the noted ghost investigator, did an investigation of this site but due to newspaper coverage it turned into a media circus. I've also read on websites that the tracks were torn up, interrupting the appearance of the light.
Sad, now this sounds like a missed opportunity.
The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.
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Just a random thought; for those of us in Canada (don't know if the show's on any US networks), tune in tonight on Space to a show called Proof Positive; it's a reality-like show that takes paranormal phenomena and subjects them to scientific testing (also, it's hosted by Amanda "Maj. Carter" Tapping, for the braniac sex-appeal factor).
Quote:Heh. How drunk were they when they came up with that plan?
Originally posted by Hardware:
A short time before, a company of Fort Bragg soldiers armed with rifles decided to put an end to Joe's nightly excursions. His lantern eluded both guns and soldiers.
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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I think Proof Positive airs on Sci-Fi in the US (not sure though). I saw it a couple of weeks ago on Space, really interesting stuff.
Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and say how great this thread is (as is everyone's willingness to share their experiences and opinions) and contribute two of my own experiences.
When I was a kid I had experiences similar to what DarkJester described in one of the posts near the beginning of the thread. I would have really short dreams (more like flashes between dreams) of things that would later happen (and I would usually wake up thinking 'why would he say that?' or 'why was I there?').
The odd part was when I would remember the dream. Usually something someone said would trigger a memory of the dream and I would know how the conversation or whatever would play out for the next 15-30 seconds. I would usually try to chalk it up to deja vu, but it always felt like more than that, especially since I would remember the experience the first time (in the dream), it wasn't just feeling like I had seen this before. It happened about once a month when I was younger (I remember it happening the most when I was about 12-14). Now it rarely happens (I'm 21), of course now, I rarely remember what I dream at all.
The other experience is that when I was a child (between about 4 and 8 I think) I would feel a hand on my shoulder. There was enough pressure so that I would turn around to see who it was and there would be no one there. The pressure would last until I turned around to look. It always scared me (I think that's why I remember it).
If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. -"Angel"
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A joke: if Science is based on reproducibility, and "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" then ....
SignyM:
When it comes to extra-physical existence, I am probably a disbeliever. I want to think that people who have died are still around, but my experience tells me otherwise. And your post about being able to reproducibly create a religious or paranormal experience through direct brain stimulation certainly adds weight to that position. But, I don't think it's a proven 'brain glitch' yet. And there could always be those things that are simply beyond our senses. So I keep an open mind and communicate with people who seem to know more than I do.
On the other hand when it comes to religion, I look at history ... All those people who sincerely believed in Mithra, or Ra, or ... who sacrificed in faith ... And where are those religions now? Dust. They were obvious products of their cultures, and they withered as the cultures did. So maybe one can find certain insights into human relations and the puzzle of existence from those people. But belief is beyond me.
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Quote:
But that ground *cannot* be shaky. It must be hard, solid ground. This is not obtainible at this point in time.
The problem of people talking about it is starting to fade away and this thread is proof of that. Time will erode this barrier further and before long, you'll only remember it existance. These societal things always take time. Hell the woman thing still isn't completely gone (better or worse depending on your location).
this thread is also proof, that the paranormal metaphysical thing isn't going away and is going to have to be dealt with (eventually)..because you can't get away from it. we both know that nothing is going to be answered in this tread, but it doesn't matter because we are talking about it, we have an open dialogue and thats good enough.
Quote:
But then again, when it comes to people coming from Africa or Australia, why can't it be both?
exactly it probably was both and since the contient of Australia use to be a part of Africa, at one point wasn't most continents one big mass it makes perfect sense
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I wasn't going to bring this up at 1rst because you guys are probably thinking damn, she's had to many paranormal experiences..but its true..as far as I know so why not
when I was about 3 maybe 4 I would say closer to 4( btw I can remember as far back as two years old) I had this nightgown..it was my favorite nighgown and I even have pictures of me in that nightgown..anyway it was yellow with short puffy sleeves and it was lacy around the hem it had a scoop neck and a highwaist and a sort of ruffled flounce
well when I was little whenever I wore that night gown I would see myself as this woman in a yellow dress that was sort of simular to the nightgown I was wearing
I have two vivid memories of myself as this woman in the yellow dress..the 1rst memory is I'm riding in a horse drawn carriage down this dirt path with lots of trees on both sides its a gray damp and drizzled day and cold I'm also wearing a yellow bonnet that matches the dress, I don't know if it really should be called a memory because at the time..it was like I was there..but even as a kid I knew the woman was myself
the second memory I'm wearing the yellow dress, but I'm standing on a platue..I'm up high on top of a building on something simular to a patio..but its not..and I'm looking out over a vast country side everything is lush and green, but I'm not happy
I think the nighgown triggered those memories of me in a past life at the time I didn't know it was a past life I was only 4 but as I got older and thought more about it I did a little research and from the dress that I was wearing..I think the time I was living in was the georgian period
Also when I was 8 one day I was in my brothers room and I was laying on the bottom bunk bed and on the top part of the bed were the top bunk was at the bottom had these various pictures on it..anyway for some reason I was concentrating really hard on the pictures and I zoned out..all of a sudden I saw myself walking down a city street I was wearing a long coat much like a trench coat and a hat and carrying a bag it started to rain.. I ran into a store to get out of the rain it was a cigar shop or a smoke shop of some sort, there was a man at the counter and he was reading a news paper and on it had something about a war..I saw myself ..but I was a man....I think it was around the 1920's maybe earlier..not really sure
I had another simular experience of zoning out and seeing myself as someone else only I don't remember how old I was..I think I was in my teens and don't really remember any of the details surrounding it..it happened really fast..but I felt tremedous happiness as I saw myself..but I'm walking down a hall way of a house..and the wall paper is sort of a cream and a faded pink big stripe wall paper I turn the corner and I come to the kitchen and I walk toward the back door and look out and theres children playing..they are my children..and thats all I see..I was a woman with dark hair and I think the period was victorian ..it was as if I could see myself walking ( not really myself but as if I had steped into someone's body and was looking at it seeing it as it was happening as if I was walking thats the best I can explain it the memory came and went quickly..but the sense of happiness and content I felt was very poweful
I refer to these experiences as memories but , thats not doing it justice because it really wasn't like a memory it didn't feel like a memory or a dream...it was like I was there I could feel the cold I could feel the rain I could smell the treess..it felt more like the time when I saw the pinpoints of lights and went to my greatgrandmothers only it was diffrent from that too!!
Those experiences got me interested in past lives, I read a book called past lives furture lives my Jenny Cockell..her experiencs have been documented I think 20/20 even did a story on her or 60 minutes if anyone is interested in past lives I would recommend her book
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@HKCavalier:
I realize that I wasn't exactly telling in the context I was using and/or typed it wrong (I usually tired when I post ).
I was speaking more about how laymans think. They are the ones that set the ciriculum for public schools. And the ones that teach these things, teach it like it is *the* theory, etc. This is laughable as there *are* problems with Darwins theory and there are other theories worth considering.
I would think that the problem with this one is rather more with disemination of information than anything else. Schools don't even touch on the other theories (or even mention them) if only for the time factor. And they don't even mention the problems with the theories that they do teach.
And if people aren't even aware that there are other theories (besides creationism) then how would they know even to look?
On another note, I've been thinking about your comment that Rupert Sheldrake is marginalized. I'd have to say that this happens to *everything* that is a radical idea (relative to mainstream of course).
If you look at Quantum Mechanics, it took a *long* time for it to be accepted. And even now, a lot of people don't like it. It's used b/c no-one has come up with anything better and it *is* successful in describing what it is intended to describe.
I've also skimed the telephone telepathy paper and am not impressed. I must say that the conclusions presented do *not* coincide with the numbers. The numbers *are* within statistical error as the number of calls are *small* and guessing could result in the numbers presented in this paper. There was *far* too small a number of calls to say *anything* conclusive.
To prove statistically that this is beyond coincidence, this experiment must be redone with at least a few hundred attempts. As well as with more that just one person being tested. It must be with *many* people.
Since everyone seems to think that this kind of thing only happens to those outside of the mainstream I provide an example of poor research methods from within the scientific community.
There was a researcher that wanted to prove that ecstasy was more than bad for you. He "proved" it and released a paper with the results. More than a few of the monkeys died (given as a percentage), so the conclusion was proven.
After some time, it was found that he only used 10 monkeys in his study (*far* to few) and that the drug was mislabeled (it was amphetamines) and the monkeys recieved a lethal dose. The results were discarded and the researcher... isn't that well regarded anymore nor the institute that he worked for. All results that come out from there, and from him, are in question now. He has become marginalized.
My point here is that, even in the scientific community, people doing research, that isn't good research, are looked down upon. Even if they are already well established.
So, if this paper is representive in Rupert Sheldrake's research, I understand why he is marginalized. If he would redo his experiments as suggested above, then people would have to take a look at the results. In the begining not many would look, if only because of his known experimental practices like those in this paper. But after time, if he improves his practices, that number would grow.
Every journey of a thousand miles, begins with one single step.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Hmmm... where to start...
I posted one of my own experiences pretty far up in this thread, where I dreamt something that was extrememely specific only to learn about it's occurence after I woke up. That's not the only experience I've had, but it was the one that seemed the most unexplainable just because it was correct in so many details. Now, if I could just turn that to the stock market, that would be great. (And I'd share my fortune with all of you! )
But my ideas on this whole topic are pretty unformed. I tend to view "internally experienced" events (out of body, deja vu, past life) as brain glitches because they are so... well... subjective. In most occurences, there is nothing to show that the event had any meaning outside of the person's own brain- no detail that can be confirmed and shared with others for example. (W/ the possible exception of the grandma visit.) That's not to say that these experiences can't provide great insight- Kelkule came up with the structure of benzene after dreaming about a snake eating it's tail- but they may not necessarily reflect anything except the person's own understanding and awareness.
The there are the other phenomenon- lights, noises, things that we can ALL look at and confirm (or not). I've never been able to track down anyone who has seen and recorded any such events first-hand. Of course, I never really tried, but there are several outstanding prizes for those who can prove the existance of life after death (for example) and they have yet to be collected.
OTOH, that's not so say that these event are impossible. Experiments in the outer reaches of physics (quantum) have shown that light can indeed travel faster than light, and supposedly random quantum events can be predicted by other supposedly random quantum events, so I am aware (as are all good scientists) that the universe doesn't work the way we think it does. And given the limits of our thinking, it prolly never will!
As far as things being rejected because they are not easy to explain... it's not the difficulty of the explanation that boggles scientists (By the time you get through the whole concept of dark matter and dark energy, you start to realize that scientists can twist themselves up into some pretty awesome knots!!
) it's the difficulty of showing that the thing exists in the first place.
BTW- the semi-aquatic theory of human evolution goes farther than any other theory I've ever seen in explaining our unique human features. Unfortunately, scientists can be as dogmatic as priests some times. I can think of a whole raft of theories that were initially rejected (plate techtonics, H. pylori as the causative agent of ulcer) only to be... in the end.. FINALLY accepted into the pantheon of scientific acceptability.
Not trying to push any opinions, just some random thoughts.
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Quote:
But my ideas on this whole topic are pretty unformed. I tend to view "internally experienced" events (out of body, deja vu, past life) as brain glitches because they are so... well... subjective.
But can a brain glitch be proven to be a brain glitch..define a brain glitch..what is a brain glitch and how is it any diffrent from anything..its just a label ..it to is subjective, until you can explain a metaphysical paranormal experience..you can't really explain a brain glitch..., years ago people who heard voices and saw things crazy people schizophrenic people were thought to be posessed...posession it was just a label..schizophrenic is another label..these people see things and hear voices..and we say its all in their head..but how do we know that..what if these things they are seeing and hearing are real...what if these crazy people have tuned into something a frequency or one of their senses have been awakened..and the things and voices they see are real.only its not on a level we can understand.. a brain glitch can no more be explained and be compreheneded then anything else!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
but there are several outstanding prizes for those who can prove the existance of life after death (for example) and they have yet to be collected.
Quite frankly, I really don't think that this can be proven.
My opinion on the matter, is to live my life as best I can, as in the end, we all find out the truth
So, why stress over it?Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Experiments in the outer reaches of physics (quantum) have shown that light can indeed travel faster than light,
No. A wave packet can travel faster than the velocity of light in that medium, but the information cannot. Thus, no violation of any theory occures.
If memory serves, it basically boils down to the difference between phase velocity and group velocity.
From the wife:
There's an experimental physicist doing experiments about this, Nimtz (last name). And there are a host of theorists that provided the reasons why this isn't a big deal and that we've known about this for some time. I can't remember there names, but a search for Nimtz should reveal them.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
and supposedly random quantum events can be predicted by other supposedly random quantum events
What exactly are you talking about here?
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"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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OK you physics folks - you went way beyond me. But I do have a quick question anyway - entanglement. How two entagled photons at a distance can seemingly transmit properties at FTL speeds. Or does that not happen? Any thoughts?
I've been thinking about brain glitches and normal brain operations a little. For a while I was doing high magnification microscopy work, which entailed moving slides on the stage by VERY small amounts (yes, yes I know, there are mechanisms to do that, but fingers are just so much faster). How did humans get a feedback system that works when the input is magnified 500x or more? How did parrots get the ability to use and understand language? How does any animal get isolated abilities so far advanced over normal requirements, and over their other abilities? I have no answer, BTW, but I'll get back to this after my caveat.
Specifically, I couldn't support an idea that schizophrenics are exceptionally talented at the paranormal. That would do a major disservice to their real problems. As someone who has an (extremely minor) neurological glitch, I can attest to the stress that comes from simply not perceiving smoothly. Also, I used to spend lots of time with kids with lead poisoning. In general, they were scattered, lost, frantic, anxious. At a higher level of malfunction, I can't imagine WHAT everyday life would be like. What I can imagine is that it's no fun at all, and those people need and deserve every help we can get them.
But what about sensations of religious significance? Of connectedness? Or of any other internal reaction for which there is no external cause? They come from some brain activity. Why is that function there in the first place? Like parrots understanding language, could it be that they are an extraneous talent with no perceivable normal function? And that they do tap into a separate reality? (Not my original idea. As I may have mentioned before, I know lots of really smart people)
Just some musings.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How did humans get a feedback system that works when the input is magnified 500x or more? How did parrots get the ability to use and understand language? How does any animal get isolated abilities so far advanced over normal requirements, and over their other abilities?
Hi Rue! As someone who experiences psychic phenomena 20 times a day, I am made continually aware of how much more aware we are than we think. The subconscious picks up on worlds of information that our conscious science won't be clocking for another 1000 years. Perhaps my psychic awareness is in some ways a biproduct of simply having a more conscious handle on the tiny, tiny discrepencies you're talking about.
A mystic I knew (he's gone now) once made the outragious assertion that all technology is but a pail reflection of what human beings can do naturally. Some African tribes have detailed information on astronomy without ever even having a telescope for instance. It just isn't anywhere near as easy and we've forgotten how. Technology has a way of destroying our racial memory, you see.
It's curious to me that the scientific mindset (scientistic?) tends toward a strict utilitarianism. It always seems to sneak in. You start thinking of the Universe as some kind of machine, people and animals as machines. Things. Objects in space. But what about poetry? Or beauty? Or just plain fun? Look at your example of talking parrots. Clearly, evolution does not rely solely on "requirements." I'd say that evolution is much more conserned with beauty than utility, but of course I ain't a scientist. What if the Universe were having fun? Seriously though, how does your mind square with the notion of "beauty." It's not another glitch, I hope!
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Specifically, I couldn't support an idea that schizophrenics are exceptionally talented at the paranormal. That would do a major disservice to their real problems.
Of course. But what if schizophrenia were what happens when psychic awareness malfunctions? If you are open to the possibility that psychic awareness exists, surely there must be failures, aberations, defective specimens. What do you think they would look like?
On the other hand, "functional" psychic awareness ain't no picnic either. I have frequent spells of aphasia lasting as long as a minute sometimes. I'll cry at pretty much anything. The other night I had to leave a restaurant where I'd just sat down to dinner with some friends because I couldn't stop seeing and feeling the whole room in flames and dozens of uniformed men dying in the blaze (won't be going back to that restaurant any time soon).
It has something to do with the fact that as the ordinary senses start to malfunction, the unofficial senses become more available. You might say that my mind malfunctions just enough to be useful.
Your last questions about religious experience are way too vast a subject for me to squeeze them into any coherent comentary right now. I'll have to think about it.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hi HK,
Interesting, interesting. You and I live very differently in our skulls. Mine is prosaic. Also, I do have some kind of perceptual glitch that shows up in odd ways. For example, I took an undergrad psychology class, and as a requirement, we had to be guinea pigs in the grad student's studies. One of them was about subliminal visual perception. Without going into a long, drawn out expln, what I will say is at the end, they came out and asked me "Have you been, uhm, treated for anything? Maybe as a child? Do you remember anything like that?", then showed me where I was on their chart - or rather, how far off the chart I was. I gather that not only do I not see subliminal images at all, my reaction time is about 2.5x longer than anyone else's. So, my belief is I have to look at something a very long time before I can cognate (consciously) that it's there at all. That makes it hard for me, I think, to read quick, subtle things. Perhaps that's one major difference between us. I'm sure there are other significant ones as well. But I find it seriously fascinating, so I hope you're not too put off by my nosy-ness.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Some African tribes have detailed information on astronomy without ever even having a telescope for instance. It just isn't anywhere near as easy and we've forgotten how. Technology has a way of destroying our racial memory, you see.
The Aztecs are another example of astrological superiority. There calander is *far* more acurate than our own. There calander was out aprox (from memory) 1 day per 100,000 years, whereas ours is out 1 day per 4 years and on top of that another day per few thousand and beyond that I don't know. But I'd conjecture confidently that it's out more.
I wouldn't say that technology has a way of destroying memory though. I'd say that, since these things, after some time, become history, that we become ignorant of history. And as such, things get lost in the vastness of time. It's just the way things are.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It's curious to me that the scientific mindset (scientistic?) tends toward a strict utilitarianism.
Well, if something isn't useful to explaining what someone is (at that moment) trying to explain, then why would it be considered? Science is, by its very nature, useful. It's how it was constructed and continues to be.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But what about poetry? Or beauty? Or just plain fun?
Different feilds. One cannot know nor consider everything. But, they are useful in there own right.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Look at your example of talking parrots. Clearly, evolution does not rely solely on "requirements." I'd say that evolution is much more conserned with beauty than utility, but of course I ain't a scientist. What if the Universe were having fun? Seriously though, how does your mind square with the notion of "beauty." It's not another glitch, I hope!
Well, for evolution to work there must be room to evolve. I mean, if something has reached its limit, how can it progress any further?
Beauty is relative. I find great beauty in some of the math that I am currently studying whereas others find it a horror. My wife finds (and I as well) great beauty in physics, though there are messy parts as well.
To be certain though, many other things have beauty. I can appreciate a sun set. When I was in Scotland, I looked over the wall of Sterlin Castle listening to "The Badger" by The Tea Party and was the most at peace that I've been since I can remember. I found it just the epitome of beauty.
I guess it's just how you look at things that makes it a machine or more, beautiful or not. To each his own I guess.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Of course. But what if schizophrenia were what happens when psychic awareness malfunctions? If you are open to the possibility that psychic awareness exists, surely there must be failures, aberations, defective specimens. What do you think they would look like?
Interesting, I'll have to let that one sit on the back burner for a bit.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It has something to do with the fact that as the ordinary senses start to malfunction, the unofficial senses become more available.
I don't know if I'd agree with this as a general case. But it does fit a certain reasoning, namely the blind's hightened senses.
But just because you loss part of something doesn't mean that the others would grow. ie if you burn your hand so badly that there is nerve damage, the rest of your body doesn't become more sensitive.
At this point though, I would think we might have reached a matter of opinion.
@Rue:
I'm still having talks with the wife about entanglement and I will get back to you when something comes out of it. But, how much math and physics have you taken? The answer is... complex.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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HK and Sigma,
The idea behind parsimonious evolution is that for something to invest energy/resources into a feature that is NOT generally useful, would put them at a competative disadvantage. So while the idea is that variations which are collectively neither assets nor liabilities and are therefore maintained (in a static environment) provide for selectable variations (in a changing environment), over-evolution isn't supposed to happen. Was that clear?
Sigma,
Only the first two years of physics/math courses (for physics/math majors) in college. But I'd appreciate it if you took a shot. If it doesn't work, oh well, my bad. I wouldn't hound you to keep going, shouting into my deaf ears.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I have had similar experiences, all of which in my opinion have a direct link with the paranormal...
i too have had experiences, that are 'different' to say the least.
i have lived with a lovely man for almost five years now, he cared for my children, alerted me to people i should or shouldnt trust, defended my pets and in times of stress he even calmed me down. the fact he had been dead for several years before i moved in doesnt bother me at all.
we have had series of moving/moved objects, from dissapearing keys to ornaments being broken in rooms where no-one is (all windows and doors closed)
I have also experienced a vision of a very old ghost at the (famous) Port Arthur Penal Collony in Tasmania Australia. after writing my statement, and giving detailed descriptions of the girl, i drew a sketch of the area, and was then shown at least a half a dozen other reports made in the few years before.
i have had what i will call pre-cognative dreams. dreaming of accidents, one i prevented (three am phone calls from hysterical friends telling you to fix your seatbelt helped) and the other i couldnt,i dreamed day sequences and then spoke and queued actions under my breath as a teenager.
i had an OBE or RV type of dream where i witnessed my Step great-grandfather die, only a few hours later we got a call to tell us he was dead, my mum woke me and i told her i knew... she was a little freaked.she freaked out even more when i told her the sequence of events.
i have also experienced something called clareaudience. i have heard (on many occasions) people i know talking, yet in one case he was at the other side of the continent.
i have 'feelings' that prove to be very accurate when holding jewelery items of other people. i gave up on tarot reading because i was eerrily accurate.
i was talked through the last few hours of my (12 hour, very painful) labour by my
great-grandmother... who was asleep in Tasmania... I was in Queensland.
i have had these experiences (and more) all my life. since i was a small child. my children have both had interaction with my ghost, Tony, and both reacted the exact same way. i have been told by so many people that my daughters are 'old souls' so it wouldnt surprise me at all if they had some kind of connection to the etherial side of existance.
my only true horror is a pair of reccuring dreams. the first i havent had since i was eighteen, and the second i still have on a regular basis. if anyone has any ideas i would love to hear them... ferelbushpig@hotmail.com
dream one.
i am in a clearing in a forrest. the grass is long and green and there is a gentle breeze. everything seems ok until i turn around(from the waist) and see a pure white King Cobra snake, aproximately 12 feet long, 3/4 raised hood flared. it goes to strike me but i start to run, no matter how fast i run i dont move. its as if im on a treadmill and the Cobra is in slow motion i "see" its mouth open and its fangs and that is when i wake up. cold sweat, and usualy on the floor.
dream two.
ever heard the old chestnut about "if you dream you are falling and you dont wake before you hit the bottom you die"? well ive never woken up before hitting the bottom. i run from something and plunge straight over the cliff, i can see the waves breaking on the rocks, i see the rocks speeding up towards me, i open my mouth to scream but i dont get the chance. as soon as i hit the rocks its like im jolted out of my body and i rise, slowly to see my body. always the same angle, the same injuries, sometimes different clothes but always the same ending. i watch the light turn off in my eyes an visible shutting off of my life. im not scared or worried just realy calm. then i float back down and merge into my body. i cant see anything, there is no sensory input at all and i just know im dead. then i wake up.
with this dream people who have stayed over say i sleep like a baby but when i wake up im swolen and red in certain areas.
im used to it now and i only get i
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Sigma- entangled photons- I'd be interested in the anwer as well, altho I have no idea what the question is!
AFA the speed of light- what do you mean by "the information" is lost? What info? The frequency of the initial light source?
AFA the quantum-prediction comment- It's somehting I will have to look up because I only remmer the conclusion. It was published about 2(?) years ago, I read a summary in Science News. Best I recall- the authors were looking for a way to "read" particles at a quantum level. What they found (if I'm phrasing this correctly) is that the spin of a particle can be predicted by the spin of another particle. I'll try to find you the exact reference.
Brain glitches and parsimonious evolution... That assumes that certain types of development are genetic and subject to evolutionary fources. A species-wide ability, like talking parrots, is clearly genetic. But what about the case of synesthetes? These are ppl who perceive one stimulous as a combintaion of senses: color as color AND shape, or taste as sound AND taste. Apparently, they make up 10% of the population. Is that a meaningful development? I also tried to find an reference to the neurobiology of religious experiences... according to a couple of studies, some people are "built" to have religious experiences (intense feeling of one-ness or connectedness) because their thalami(?) are wired differently than most... but when I tried looking it up, I came up with too many references to the Buddhist (female) monk/ Franciscan monk study to wade thru. I'll have to find the reference later. But if that's the case, it seems kind of a cheat that most people would be deficient in their perception of religion, and like a synesthete talking to the rest of us about the color of drumbeat, the religiously-wired folks would be telling the rest of us "deaf" about the sound of god. (I just don't like feeling like I'm on the outside of a candy store, forever looking in! ) EDITED TO ADD: And if there are only SOME people who can make use of or tap into "glichy" areas of the brain, even if they gain great insight, how much would that mean to the rest of the human race? How much could be transmitted and understood if it was strictly experiential? It would be very much like the proverbial sighted person trying to describe a sunset to the blind... it could never be transitted and only result in frustration to all concerned. \In order for an experience to be discussed, tehre has to be some common ground.
EDITED TO ADD: I should use the word "mystical" instead of "religious", since I agree with PirateJenny that religion has a lot to do with power. A lot of people in the world have religious experiences without ever have paranormal or mystical experiences. But I do have a question, too- In your opnion, are paranormal/ mystical experiences influenced by the surrounding culture? For example, are "ghost" or "spirit" events the same in China as in Iowa, or the Navajo reservation? I understand that the Navajo view ALL spirits as malign, so do they ever have friendly or at least neutral interaction with spirits, such a are described in this thread?
And then, humans have an ability to take their mental models too seriously. Just because we can think of something (purple dragons) doesn't make it real!
AFA talking parrots- I guess there are limits to parsimonious evolution. If the development doesn't cost "too much" energy, or is an outcome of a related, necessary development, I guess it is retained. I had a similar wonderment about the development of intense colors by benthic life... one does have to wonder "how"??
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Glowyrm- I can only pass on the advice given to most parents who are trying to convince their childs' doctor that somehting abnormal is going on- Have you ever tried videotaping thse blotchy areas?
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just some quick items:
synesthetes/parrots
it's assumed now most people are synesthetes and also have perfect pitch, but lose them during childhood. Only some individuals retain synesthesis, tonal-speaking cultures retain perfect pitch. Only certain individuals of certain types of parrots speak meaningfully. But that they can is genetic. Brain power is a heavy physiological burden - even when you are not actively 'thinking' about something the brain chews up glucose and O2. It needs to be constantly fed just to stay alive.
I'll probably make it back here in an extended way before 'the holidays', but if I don't get the chance - may the refocusing of our lives bring harmony and peace.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Glowyrm- I can only pass on the advice given to most parents who are trying to convince their childs' doctor that somehting abnormal is going on- Have you ever tried videotaping thse blotchy areas?
yeh, i have had my doctor (a very streight non-believer) and even he has said that they are unusual, there is "an obvious swelling and thickening of the muscle." the most recent occurance with the falling dream has left me with a visible and sore lump in the middle of my spine. the angle that i landed on smashed my dream body into a small rock (female fist size) before bouncing slightly to the right. after x rays, ultra sound and a visit to the osteopath nobody has any other explination. its been several months and STILL the lump remains.
when my kids interact with my ghost it almost always goes the same way.
they will wake from sleep (usualy after a bad dream) and instead of crying and carrying on they both look at the same spot, same height, and start talking. the first time it ever happened i was sort of relieved that she (my oldest who was then 18 months) went back to sleep without me even going into her. at three years old she told me about her talks with "the man who isnt realy there but he is". we didnt talk about it much until my second daughter (now 2) started doing the same thing.
the room doesnt matter, or the layout. 'he' always sits in the middle of the side of the bed.
when my most recent relationship broke down, i waqs in a lot of emotional pain... i may enter that story as a blog entry... almost every night for months i felt a hand on my shoulder right before i would go to bed. or while i was doing the washing up. we love him and respect him and he is almost a part of the family.
"i love being a glowyrm, cause a glowyrm cant be glum. for who the heck would argue with big teeth and a sun for a bum!"
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glowyrm wrote:
Quote:
dream two.
ever heard the old chestnut about "if you dream you are falling and you dont wake before you hit the bottom you die"? well ive never woken up before hitting the bottom. i run from something and plunge straight over the cliff, i can see the waves breaking on the rocks, i see the rocks speeding up towards me, i open my mouth to scream but i dont get the chance. as soon as i hit the rocks its like im jolted out of my body and i rise, slowly to see my body. always the
same angle, the same injuries, sometimes different clothes but always the same ending. i watch the light turn off in my eyes an visible shutting off of my life. im not scared or worried just realy calm. then i float back down and merge into my body. i cant see anything, there is no sensory input at all and i just know im dead. then i wake up.
with this dream people who have stayed over say i sleep like a baby but when i wake up im swolen and red in certain areas.
im used to it now and i only get it once every few weeks instead of every few nights or at its worst a few times every night.
I'm no dream expert or anything like that, but find this dream very intresting the feelings and emotions I've experieced with something I call the pink room dreams....but back to you
it seems as if you are experiencing death in this dream, maybe a past death or future death, the fact that you can actually feel yourself leaving your body is the most intresting part of this recurring dream.
death is another one of those subjects that I think people should talk more about ..most people don't like to think of it but its part of living, and i think the fear thats associated with it is shamful..I mean death itself
I maybe scared about how I die, or when I die, but I'm not afraid of dying.
its something we are all going to have to do. I don't see why it has to be such a fearful exprience!!
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double post!!
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Quote:
I maybe scared about how I die, or when I die, but I'm not afraid of dying.
i can totaly agree, i dont hold any fear of the actual act of dying, just the acts that lead up to it. after all, as any good kender(from the dragonlance books) would tell you "death is the last great adventure"
"i love being a glowyrm, cause a glowyrm cant be glum. for who the heck would argue with big teeth and a sun for a bum!"
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Quote:--Cmdr Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
I don't want to be killed by a typo. It'd be embarassing.
-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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I've always been a bit of a paradox. My deepest belief is in the truth of science, yet I also firmly believe in the supernatural, metaphysical, and spiritual. I can't explain how they all fit together, but it's something like... Science explains the physical world, down to the planck scale, but the spiritual/metaphysical exists outside of the realm of current known science. Either because we don't have the technology to properly analyze such phenomena yet, or because we refuse to give the paranormal the mainstream attention it deserves.
In a thousand years, maybe we'll be able to take a college course on the psychology of mental telepathy, join a support group for struggling pyrokinetics, or hire a government-sanctioned medium to communicate with lost loved ones. Today, however, the information is a bit sketchy.
(This doesn't really have anything to do with the paranormal, but I've always been a lucid dreamer. Whenever something scares me in a dream, I always just kind of go, "You're not real, so off.", or I use some sort of force to push it away or render it helpless somehow. It seems to fit with my deep-rooted scientific belief... it's not real, so it can't hurt me. Oddly enough, sometimes, when I realize I'm dreaming, I'll ask somebody in the dream, "So, this is a dream, right?" and they'll respond affirmative, and it always makes me laugh.)
I'll post again with some of my more unusual experiences.
__________________________________
The best way to get rid of temptation is to yield to it. 
- Oscar Wilde
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I believe "somewhat" in the paranormal. Basically, I believe up to the point where someone tries to make money off of it.
I believe because I've had full-blown visions that warn me when someone I know is in extreme danger. I call it 'the voice'. The voice shows and tells me exactly what is going to happen if I don't act immediately.
I don't get these when the toast is going to burn -- I get these when my brother is about to burn. Literally.
Looking back, I've always had warnings about stuff but this was the first time that I really remember the voice screaming at me from inside my head.
I was babysitting about 4 blocks from my house when I heard a voice shout in my ear, "Larry is going to burn himself!" The voice showed me my little brother cooking hotdogs over a fire. He was wearing a huge purple poofy pirate shirt and the sleeves caught fire.
My first reaction was "why is Larry wearing my shirt?". The voice SCREAMED at me to stop him. I ran home as fast as I could and there was my little brother, pouring lighter fluid on a pile of sticks to have himself a private little weenie roast. And yes, he was wearing my purple pirate shirt.
I heard it again when I was at a party (a drunken debauch which inspired epic songs) and it warned me "FIND BECKY NOW!!" and showed me a visual of my roommate and 3 guys dead in a field.
I found Becky getting into a car full of drunks. I physically hauled her out of the car and threw her over my shoulder. (she is a tiny 5'1" thang). I dragged her kicking and screaming back into the party. I told the guys they had NO business driving in their condition.
An hour later we left the party and drove by the ambulances and emergency vehicles that were rescuing the one living victim and recovering the bodies of the three dead. Yes. They were the guys Becky was in the car with.
I heard the voice a few years later scream in my ear, "He's going to burn!". I was in the ladies room doing what you do in the ladies room when the voice showed me an airman in our squadron on fire, our lawnmower and lawn burning with him.
I hopped to my feet and blew off any handwashing - zipping as I was running out the bathroom door. I grabbed the fire extinguisher and kept running -- I hit the outside doors JUST as the airman pulled the cord on the mower.
He'd filled the gas tank from a bucket of gas and had splashed it all over the mower, the lawn, his boots, etc. He pulled that cord and immediately the mower, grass and airman were on fire.
I doused him with halon before he even realized he'd almost turned himself into a funeral pyre.
These aren't the only times I've heard the voice, but they do come to mind the quickest.
One day, I'll tell you about the ghosts I've lived with over the years.
"Just keep walkin, preacher man."
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I've heard the voice twice, but once it was SO inconsequential, it was a shame. I was analyzing a sample, and I knew, knew it was going to be abnormal. It was like St Paul's falling from his horse in a stream of light listening to the voice of God on the road to Damascus. I went around trying to get bets on it but no none would. I could have cleaned-up.
The other time, I was worried sick over a young family member who was seriously ill, and getting worse. I was walking down the sidewalk and I heard the voice coming from over my head in a stream of light, saying (not quite in words) 'she's all right', and it was so convincing, I was able to relax. And for that day, she was remarkably well.
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SigmaNunki,
I saw a show called something like "A Theory of Everything" about string theory. I was wondering, if in our normal 4 dimensions, there are constant phase and spatial relationships in things (EM waves, with direction of propagation and E and M all orthogonal, and E and M at 90 deg phase difference, for example) is there any indication that strings that makes up things in the other dimensions have similar phase relationships? Or is this a silly question? Just wondering.
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HKCavalier, SignyM, SigmaNunki, and Everyone:
A heartfelt Best Holidays to all.
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@rue:
And a heartfelt best holidays back to yourself, HKCavalier, SignyM and everyone else as well
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Wow, long post. I guess I'll throw in my two cents.
Probably the most real, and disturbing, dream I’ve had was when I was about 13. I dreamt that I was a woman with long red-blonde hair walking next to a pond just after dark. I heard a horse coming, trotting, toward me. When I looked up the horse and rider where there. The rider must have struck me with something because I fell down, partially in the water. The horse rode away and didn't stop. I remember that I was laying on my back, into the water up to about my ears. My hand was near my head floating in the water. Then the water froze as then night wore on and I lay in the water dying with no one to pull me out. I remember feeling ice crystals form around my fingers. From the time it took me to fall into the pond to the time that it froze took a couple of hours, but it only felt like a few seconds. I woke up after that because I wasn't breathing. That dream has stuck with me pretty good.
I also have dreams where the world ends. Like nuclear holocaust or something. Once I dreamt that I saw the sun rip in half.
The most spiritual dreams I’ve had were the ones where I see dead people that I knew. The first time I remember this happening was when a kid down my street died in a car accident. We really didn't like each other, and I kind of felt bad when he died because of that. A few days later, I was dreaming and I saw him. Everything was blue, even me and him. He was just standing there. There was a small pool of water between us, also blue and calm. We kind of just stood there for a minute looking at each other. And that was it. After that I had no doubt in my mind that wherever he was he had no bad feelings about me, nor had I for him. I have seen a couple of dead people like that, same place, color and pool of water separating us.
That's about all for me. I enjoy reading your stories and am glad that there is a forum where people can post these kinds of things for other open minded people to read.
"I am Jack's complete lack of surprise." - Narrator
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SignyM
Quote:OK, I got this in the right place now. To put these in context, I dreamed the first when I was 8 or 9, the last when I was 12 or 13. And while I am reasonably certain they came from my mind, they were different from most dreams in that they were not concerned with recent events; and they were things I could never have thought by intention. I did and do look to these dreams for answers to issues as if they were from another source than myself.
When I was pre-teen to early teen I used to dream poems, parables and chants. Here are a few examples:
(the picture is the world in space, the voice is a woman's gentle voice with the depth of the voice you hear in your head)
Spin yourself some magic
That you can call your own.
Spin yourself a dream,
And the world can spin alone.
(the picture is an arid, rocky sun-drenched Middle-East setting, the voice is a medium-register neutral man's voice)
A man looked upon the world and its various ways, and became confused.
He asked his god - what way am I to follow that's good?
And his god asked him - do you till your field? The man answered - yes.
And his god asked him - do you know your field? And the man answered - yes.
Then his god said - I say to you, you do not know your field. You must go into your field and turn stones, until you know the shape snd shuttle of each stone.
And the man was content from that day.
(the picture is a ridge top with some dead grasses and a bent, twisted evergreen with snow blowing on it, and a dreary sky; the chanting voice is that of an old, old woman)
Snow blows over the hill,
Wind hits cold against my back.
Long as it's winter, I won't look back.
Oh mercy me -
the Joshua tree.
My days be gone,
My friends be dead.
Wrinkled, dry, without a tear.
Here I am, and I won't look back,
Oh lonesome me -
The Joshua tree.
Wind blows over the hill,
Snow hits cold gainst my back,
I don't see far,
But I won't look back.
Oh mercy me -
The Joshua tree.
And now SignyM, it's your turn ....
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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I remember no dreams almost ever. Most people think thats pretty wierd especially since I apparently dream a lot and vividly. Being a heathen pagan and chaos magician, I have had pretty much every other wierd experience you can think of. I have know things I shouldn't be able to with tarot cards. Visions. I have been a psychic healer with effects on non-believers. I had a ghost for a friend for a while. Her name was Emily and her favorite tricks included making milk and cream curdle in an instant, making soda and beer go flat suddenly, making lights flicker, etc. Any hack could do it at home (see Houdini's late career), but at a restauraunt? Blah blah blah. I could go on for days, but choose to show mercy.
Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
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Here's one dream- It's a pretty straightforward parable as a scifi story.
The dream began (as many scifi stories do) with a person being thawed some time in the future. He wakes up in a village which (among other marvels) has "oragnic" houses: bubble-like semisynthetic oragnisms that actively adjust light, heat, and moisture to the preference of the resident. (sleeping platforms absorb sweat and skin flakes, the "toilet" directs nourishment down to the roots etc.) Villages are calm and people are happy.
A cultural event expresses one of their basic tenets, and the event is a dance/performance art competition between temporary teams called a sanyagoing. The sanygoing is invoked on an occasional basis when people feel the need for reconnection... society being like a dance... but the characteristic feature is that anyone who volunteers for any team must be accepted. The winner is the team that makes the best use of all of its members in the short (several day) preparation available.
Three dances occur in the competition which occurs in the time-frame of the story. The first is rousing and muscular: men and women step through a vigorous line-dance, tossing their partners into the air and twirling in an intricate pattern while children clap the beat and the eldery chant and play drums. The audience claps and stomps in time, adding intricacy to the beat, changing rhythm with the dance. The audience as well as the dancers are flushed and smiling at the end.
The second ocurs at dusk. While singing children thread their way through the audience with lit candles, and some elderly people scatter perfumed flowers among the crowd, an on-stage chorus sings a multi-part hymn. When the last of the scent and music has drifted up into the glowing evening sky, everyone is filled with a feeling of peace.
The third performance doesn't begin well. There are two unequal groups semi-organized on-stage, and a scattering of confused-looking individuals. The first group begins to dance, the second joins in a bit late, the first group stops and looks at the second group before sending over a member to explain how things are supposed to go. The audience murmurs while people on-stage rearrange themselves and some of the children are sent off to the side. They start again- another false start, and this time there is disagreement on-stage between the two groups. While they discuss, the audience shifts around and murmurs even more loudly. Then a small group tries to take matters into their own hands by bossing everyone around, while EVERYONE is looking nervously at the audience. The audience begins to chuckle. As the group slowly devolves among contending factions on-stage, the audience laughs louder and louder. Finally, the stage is empty and the audience is laughing uproariously.
They won the compeition, but our atavist doesn't "get it".
And then I woke up....
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Well, aren't we the little anarchy demon...?
I fly in my dreams Chrisisall
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Amazing.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Yeah, behind that hyper-realist facade beats the heart of a dreamer. But don't tell anyone.
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Here is my 'just enough' dream, with a little bit of sheer writing at the end.
She stood on open short-grass prairie, facing west on the crest of a shallow rise, with the bright sun warming her head and shoulder, a fresh cool breeze sifting through her hair, there was a deep blue sky above. A few puffy white clouds cheerfully sailed across the sky. The grasses and forbes that came to her knees were wiry and deep green with scattered blooms. This was early summer, green and brisk, with the smell of dirt and the pungent resin of sun-warmed plants. On the exposed crest of the rise, patches of bare dirt showed sunnily. In front of her the ground dropped to form a long low cliff that ran south to north. Two hundred meters or so to the west a narrow paved road ran south to north, parallel to the cliff. On the far side of the road slightly to the south a man drove a green tractor back and forth, tilling a small plot of fertile earth. Directly across the road, two young children, a girl of six or seven and a smaller boy of three or four played around a square of green corn, chasing and tagging each other, laughing. Their house stood behind them where their mother worked preparing food for winter storage. Beyond that the prairie ran an unbroken green to the far horizon, and on the horizon, unassuming blue foothills lay at the north-west, and a few white topped peaks peered out from behind them.
In this world, great herds of bison roamed, passenger pigeons flew, deep mysterious forests covered the mountainsides, and the rivers flowed clean. The world was un-owned, open, and abundant. And that was her destination, the vast fresh land that called her forward.
It was that way because of the people. They knew that they owed their friendly society, the security of abundance, and their limitless futures to the knowledge that the time to stop taking was when they had - just enough.
Science was precious and technology made life easier and more certain, but the most important thing was to know when you had just enough food, just enough shelter, just enough children, and then stop.
As long as they all remembered that, everyone would look on the world through lighthearted eyes.
The most respected people were the ones who seemed to have the keenest sense of ‘just enough’, especially in their dealings with other people, while inklings of greed in anyone were feared as a malignant insanity. If enough people started grabbing, then everyone else would need to grab too, to try secure an insecure future. And life would be mean and hostile, focused on grabbing first, hoarding and guarding, a ceaseless war of all against all, toward the ultimate end of a future of depleted resources and wasted lives. It would be a barren, hopeless life.
But as long as they did not succumb to the insanity of power, greed and fear life would be plentiful and secure in the present and for all the generations to come.
That wonderful land of just enough existed in the place without the serpent. It was serpent in the garden who had told others that they were only cheating themselves if they settled for plenty, and that, really, they should want more.
In the beginning was all, present, past, and future. And the all was without form. And it laughed to hear the sound of one hand clapping and unclapping, and never having clapped. And from the formlessness god created matter and energy, space and time, and the daemons of heaven were cast out to rule over the impotent domains of that which remained. And the universe crystallized, but the matter did not grow to fill it, thus was time given direction, and energy flowed downhill as a river.
And gods created the heavens and the earth, and it was good.
And from the mud it made life between the formless energy of the sun and the perfect still crystal of cold, in the dreamtime. And god created all the plants and animals thereof, and gods created man to live in delight in the garden of eden.
Desert and sea bounded the garden. Man ate of the riches of the sea and the earth. And the garden was peaceable for predators
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Wow. The malignancy of greed and fear. We should fear it, but instead we revere it. No wonder our planet is f*cked.
In strictly pedestrian terms, game theory says that a cooperative society is possible. The key to sustaining cooperation is that it must remain a fairly large portion of the population, so that the uncooperative remain deviants and not become the norm. Your description of the "greed dynamic" is crystal clear. There is threshold, or "tipping point", beyond which greed/ noncooperation will take over a previously cooperative society if left to its own dynmaic. In order to keep greed from establishing its own dynamic, there must be a negative feeback loop that controls it. One of the interesting things is that people is horizontal societies are in fact quite capable of nipping greed in the bud as long as the greedy can be confronted face to face. Apparently that feedback loop doesn't work well in vertical socieites, or that it CAN work but we just haven't figured out how to do it. I'm neither a game theorist nor a sociologist so I don't have even an inkling of an answer for that one.
Archaelogy tells us that it is possible to have a large, horizontal society that is apparently not driven by greed or fear. The ancient cities around Mohenjo-Daro are engimas to us, begin large and technologically developed (for the time), well-planned and equitable habitations without temples, ramparts, armories, city goverment buildings etc.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but your dream sparked a LOT of thoughts. It's interesting to wonder where dreams like this come from when they are so far out of anything that one has ever experienced. I've enjoyed reading your dreams, I hope you post more.
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In the dream, the main reason greed, power and fear were not supported by society at large was b/c people lived socially secure, peaceful lives; & they understood that to be the direct result of the 'just enough' ethic.
It's not like they didn't feel anxiety (how much extra should I plant to be secure in the face of a bad season or two?), or that they didn't understand the drive to have more than others, or to exert power over others. It's that they understood if those ethics took root and became the driving social dynamic, then all their lives would be ruined.
Once something like that happens, I'm not sure how it can be reversed. I liken it to the toxic cold-war evolution in Australia's animals. While that path looks (ultimately) self-defeating, there doesn't seem to be a mechanism to reverse it.
Anyway, I'm glad you thought my dream was interesting.
PSQuote:
I don't think I made it clear, but in this dream, people followed the philosophy not b/c it was the right thing to do, or b/c god told them so, or b/c they figured it might help out someday, or even b/c they didn't feel the seductions of otherwise. They followed it b/c the great quality of their life, and their heirs, was a direct consequence of it.
. In order to keep greed from establishing its own dynamic, there must be a negative feeback loop that controls it.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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