Paranormal experiences & Dreams
POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Thursday, September 1, 2005 22:52
VIEWED: 14949
PAGE 7 of 10
@HKCavalier:
I realize that I wasn't exactly telling in the context I was using and/or typed it wrong (I usually tired when I post 
).
I was speaking more about how laymans think. They are the ones that set the ciriculum for public schools. And the ones that teach these things, teach it like it is *the* theory, etc. This is laughable as there *are* problems with Darwins theory and there are other theories worth considering.
I would think that the problem with this one is rather more with disemination of information than anything else. Schools don't even touch on the other theories (or even mention them) if only for the time factor. And they don't even mention the problems with the theories that they do teach.
And if people aren't even aware that there are other theories (besides creationism) then how would they know even to look?
On another note, I've been thinking about your comment that Rupert Sheldrake is marginalized. I'd have to say that this happens to *everything* that is a radical idea (relative to mainstream of course).
If you look at Quantum Mechanics, it took a *long* time for it to be accepted. And even now, a lot of people don't like it. It's used b/c no-one has come up with anything better and it *is* successful in describing what it is intended to describe.
I've also skimed the telephone telepathy paper and am not impressed. I must say that the conclusions presented do *not* coincide with the numbers. The numbers *are* within statistical error as the number of calls are *small* and guessing could result in the numbers presented in this paper. There was *far* too small a number of calls to say *anything* conclusive.
To prove statistically that this is beyond coincidence, this experiment must be redone with at least a few hundred attempts. As well as with more that just one person being tested. It must be with *many* people.
Since everyone seems to think that this kind of thing only happens to those outside of the mainstream I provide an example of poor research methods from within the scientific community.
There was a researcher that wanted to prove that ecstasy was more than bad for you. He "proved" it and released a paper with the results. More than a few of the monkeys died (given as a percentage), so the conclusion was proven.
After some time, it was found that he only used 10 monkeys in his study (*far* to few) and that the drug was mislabeled (it was amphetamines) and the monkeys recieved a lethal dose. The results were discarded and the researcher... isn't that well regarded anymore nor the institute that he worked for. All results that come out from there, and from him, are in question now. He has become marginalized.
My point here is that, even in the scientific community, people doing research, that isn't good research, are looked down upon. Even if they are already well established.
So, if this paper is representive in Rupert Sheldrake's research, I understand why he is marginalized. If he would redo his experiments as suggested above, then people would have to take a look at the results. In the begining not many would look, if only because of his known experimental practices like those in this paper. But after time, if he improves his practices, that number would grow.
Every journey of a thousand miles, begins with one single step.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Hmmm... where to start...
I posted one of my own experiences pretty far up in this thread, where I dreamt something that was extrememely specific only to learn about it's occurence after I woke up. That's not the only experience I've had, but it was the one that seemed the most unexplainable just because it was correct in so many details. Now, if I could just turn that to the stock market, that would be great. (And I'd share my fortune with all of you! 
)
But my ideas on this whole topic are pretty unformed. I tend to view "internally experienced" events (out of body, deja vu, past life) as brain glitches because they are so... well... subjective. In most occurences, there is nothing to show that the event had any meaning outside of the person's own brain- no detail that can be confirmed and shared with others for example. (W/ the possible exception of the grandma visit.) That's not to say that these experiences can't provide great insight- Kelkule came up with the structure of benzene after dreaming about a snake eating it's tail- but they may not necessarily reflect anything except the person's own understanding and awareness.
The there are the other phenomenon- lights, noises, things that we can ALL look at and confirm (or not). I've never been able to track down anyone who has seen and recorded any such events first-hand. Of course, I never really tried, but there are several outstanding prizes for those who can prove the existance of life after death (for example) and they have yet to be collected.
OTOH, that's not so say that these event are impossible. Experiments in the outer reaches of physics (quantum) have shown that light can indeed travel faster than light, and supposedly random quantum events can be predicted by other supposedly random quantum events, so I am aware (as are all good scientists) that the universe doesn't work the way we think it does. And given the limits of our thinking, it prolly never will!
As far as things being rejected because they are not easy to explain... it's not the difficulty of the explanation that boggles scientists (By the time you get through the whole concept of dark matter and dark energy, you start to realize that scientists can twist themselves up into some pretty awesome knots!!
) it's the difficulty of showing that the thing exists in the first place.
BTW- the semi-aquatic theory of human evolution goes farther than any other theory I've ever seen in explaining our unique human features. Unfortunately, scientists can be as dogmatic as priests some times. I can think of a whole raft of theories that were initially rejected (plate techtonics, H. pylori as the causative agent of ulcer) only to be... in the end.. FINALLY accepted into the pantheon of scientific acceptability.
Not trying to push any opinions, just some random thoughts.
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Quote:
But my ideas on this whole topic are pretty unformed. I tend to view "internally experienced" events (out of body, deja vu, past life) as brain glitches because they are so... well... subjective.
But can a brain glitch be proven to be a brain glitch..define a brain glitch..what is a brain glitch and how is it any diffrent from anything..its just a label ..it to is subjective, until you can explain a metaphysical paranormal experience..you can't really explain a brain glitch..., years ago people who heard voices and saw things crazy people schizophrenic people were thought to be posessed...posession it was just a label..schizophrenic is another label..these people see things and hear voices..and we say its all in their head..but how do we know that..what if these things they are seeing and hearing are real...what if these crazy people have tuned into something a frequency or one of their senses have been awakened..and the things and voices they see are real.only its not on a level we can understand.. a brain glitch can no more be explained and be compreheneded then anything else!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
but there are several outstanding prizes for those who can prove the existance of life after death (for example) and they have yet to be collected.
Quite frankly, I really don't think that this can be proven.
My opinion on the matter, is to live my life as best I can, as in the end, we all find out the truth
So, why stress over it?Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Experiments in the outer reaches of physics (quantum) have shown that light can indeed travel faster than light,
No. A wave packet can travel faster than the velocity of light in that medium, but the information cannot. Thus, no violation of any theory occures.
If memory serves, it basically boils down to the difference between phase velocity and group velocity.
From the wife:
There's an experimental physicist doing experiments about this, Nimtz (last name). And there are a host of theorists that provided the reasons why this isn't a big deal and that we've known about this for some time. I can't remember there names, but a search for Nimtz should reveal them.
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
and supposedly random quantum events can be predicted by other supposedly random quantum events
What exactly are you talking about here?
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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OK you physics folks - you went way beyond me. But I do have a quick question anyway - entanglement. How two entagled photons at a distance can seemingly transmit properties at FTL speeds. Or does that not happen? Any thoughts?
I've been thinking about brain glitches and normal brain operations a little. For a while I was doing high magnification microscopy work, which entailed moving slides on the stage by VERY small amounts (yes, yes I know, there are mechanisms to do that, but fingers are just so much faster). How did humans get a feedback system that works when the input is magnified 500x or more? How did parrots get the ability to use and understand language? How does any animal get isolated abilities so far advanced over normal requirements, and over their other abilities? I have no answer, BTW, but I'll get back to this after my caveat.
Specifically, I couldn't support an idea that schizophrenics are exceptionally talented at the paranormal. That would do a major disservice to their real problems. As someone who has an (extremely minor) neurological glitch, I can attest to the stress that comes from simply not perceiving smoothly. Also, I used to spend lots of time with kids with lead poisoning. In general, they were scattered, lost, frantic, anxious. At a higher level of malfunction, I can't imagine WHAT everyday life would be like. What I can imagine is that it's no fun at all, and those people need and deserve every help we can get them.
But what about sensations of religious significance? Of connectedness? Or of any other internal reaction for which there is no external cause? They come from some brain activity. Why is that function there in the first place? Like parrots understanding language, could it be that they are an extraneous talent with no perceivable normal function? And that they do tap into a separate reality? (Not my original idea. As I may have mentioned before, I know lots of really smart people)
Just some musings.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How did humans get a feedback system that works when the input is magnified 500x or more? How did parrots get the ability to use and understand language? How does any animal get isolated abilities so far advanced over normal requirements, and over their other abilities?
Hi Rue! As someone who experiences psychic phenomena 20 times a day, I am made continually aware of how much more aware we are than we think. The subconscious picks up on worlds of information that our conscious science won't be clocking for another 1000 years. Perhaps my psychic awareness is in some ways a biproduct of simply having a more conscious handle on the tiny, tiny discrepencies you're talking about.
A mystic I knew (he's gone now) once made the outragious assertion that all technology is but a pail reflection of what human beings can do naturally. Some African tribes have detailed information on astronomy without ever even having a telescope for instance. It just isn't anywhere near as easy and we've forgotten how. Technology has a way of destroying our racial memory, you see.
It's curious to me that the scientific mindset (scientistic?) tends toward a strict utilitarianism. It always seems to sneak in. You start thinking of the Universe as some kind of machine, people and animals as machines. Things. Objects in space. But what about poetry? Or beauty? Or just plain fun? Look at your example of talking parrots. Clearly, evolution does not rely solely on "requirements." I'd say that evolution is much more conserned with beauty than utility, but of course I ain't a scientist. What if the Universe were having fun? Seriously though, how does your mind square with the notion of "beauty." It's not another glitch, I hope!
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Specifically, I couldn't support an idea that schizophrenics are exceptionally talented at the paranormal. That would do a major disservice to their real problems.
Of course. But what if schizophrenia were what happens when psychic awareness malfunctions? If you are open to the possibility that psychic awareness exists, surely there must be failures, aberations, defective specimens. What do you think they would look like?
On the other hand, "functional" psychic awareness ain't no picnic either. I have frequent spells of aphasia lasting as long as a minute sometimes. I'll cry at pretty much anything. The other night I had to leave a restaurant where I'd just sat down to dinner with some friends because I couldn't stop seeing and feeling the whole room in flames and dozens of uniformed men dying in the blaze (won't be going back to that restaurant any time soon).
It has something to do with the fact that as the ordinary senses start to malfunction, the unofficial senses become more available. You might say that my mind malfunctions just enough to be useful.
Your last questions about religious experience are way too vast a subject for me to squeeze them into any coherent comentary right now. I'll have to think about it.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hi HK,
Interesting, interesting. You and I live very differently in our skulls. Mine is prosaic. Also, I do have some kind of perceptual glitch that shows up in odd ways. For example, I took an undergrad psychology class, and as a requirement, we had to be guinea pigs in the grad student's studies. One of them was about subliminal visual perception. Without going into a long, drawn out expln, what I will say is at the end, they came out and asked me "Have you been, uhm, treated for anything? Maybe as a child? Do you remember anything like that?", then showed me where I was on their chart - or rather, how far off the chart I was. I gather that not only do I not see subliminal images at all, my reaction time is about 2.5x longer than anyone else's. So, my belief is I have to look at something a very long time before I can cognate (consciously) that it's there at all. That makes it hard for me, I think, to read quick, subtle things. Perhaps that's one major difference between us. I'm sure there are other significant ones as well. But I find it seriously fascinating, so I hope you're not too put off by my nosy-ness.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Some African tribes have detailed information on astronomy without ever even having a telescope for instance. It just isn't anywhere near as easy and we've forgotten how. Technology has a way of destroying our racial memory, you see.
The Aztecs are another example of astrological superiority. There calander is *far* more acurate than our own. There calander was out aprox (from memory) 1 day per 100,000 years, whereas ours is out 1 day per 4 years and on top of that another day per few thousand and beyond that I don't know. But I'd conjecture confidently that it's out more.
I wouldn't say that technology has a way of destroying memory though. I'd say that, since these things, after some time, become history, that we become ignorant of history. And as such, things get lost in the vastness of time. It's just the way things are.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It's curious to me that the scientific mindset (scientistic?) tends toward a strict utilitarianism.
Well, if something isn't useful to explaining what someone is (at that moment) trying to explain, then why would it be considered? Science is, by its very nature, useful. It's how it was constructed and continues to be.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But what about poetry? Or beauty? Or just plain fun?
Different feilds. One cannot know nor consider everything. But, they are useful in there own right.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Look at your example of talking parrots. Clearly, evolution does not rely solely on "requirements." I'd say that evolution is much more conserned with beauty than utility, but of course I ain't a scientist. What if the Universe were having fun? Seriously though, how does your mind square with the notion of "beauty." It's not another glitch, I hope!
Well, for evolution to work there must be room to evolve. I mean, if something has reached its limit, how can it progress any further?
Beauty is relative. I find great beauty in some of the math that I am currently studying whereas others find it a horror. My wife finds (and I as well) great beauty in physics, though there are messy parts as well.
To be certain though, many other things have beauty. I can appreciate a sun set. When I was in Scotland, I looked over the wall of Sterlin Castle listening to "The Badger" by The Tea Party and was the most at peace that I've been since I can remember. I found it just the epitome of beauty.
I guess it's just how you look at things that makes it a machine or more, beautiful or not. To each his own I guess.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Of course. But what if schizophrenia were what happens when psychic awareness malfunctions? If you are open to the possibility that psychic awareness exists, surely there must be failures, aberations, defective specimens. What do you think they would look like?
Interesting, I'll have to let that one sit on the back burner for a bit.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
It has something to do with the fact that as the ordinary senses start to malfunction, the unofficial senses become more available.
I don't know if I'd agree with this as a general case. But it does fit a certain reasoning, namely the blind's hightened senses.
But just because you loss part of something doesn't mean that the others would grow. ie if you burn your hand so badly that there is nerve damage, the rest of your body doesn't become more sensitive.
At this point though, I would think we might have reached a matter of opinion.
@Rue:
I'm still having talks with the wife about entanglement and I will get back to you when something comes out of it. But, how much math and physics have you taken? The answer is... complex.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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HK and Sigma,
The idea behind parsimonious evolution is that for something to invest energy/resources into a feature that is NOT generally useful, would put them at a competative disadvantage. So while the idea is that variations which are collectively neither assets nor liabilities and are therefore maintained (in a static environment) provide for selectable variations (in a changing environment), over-evolution isn't supposed to happen. Was that clear?
Sigma,
Only the first two years of physics/math courses (for physics/math majors) in college. But I'd appreciate it if you took a shot. If it doesn't work, oh well, my bad. I wouldn't hound you to keep going, shouting into my deaf ears.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
I have had similar experiences, all of which in my opinion have a direct link with the paranormal...
i too have had experiences, that are 'different' to say the least.
i have lived with a lovely man for almost five years now, he cared for my children, alerted me to people i should or shouldnt trust, defended my pets and in times of stress he even calmed me down. the fact he had been dead for several years before i moved in doesnt bother me at all.
we have had series of moving/moved objects, from dissapearing keys to ornaments being broken in rooms where no-one is (all windows and doors closed)
I have also experienced a vision of a very old ghost at the (famous) Port Arthur Penal Collony in Tasmania Australia. after writing my statement, and giving detailed descriptions of the girl, i drew a sketch of the area, and was then shown at least a half a dozen other reports made in the few years before.
i have had what i will call pre-cognative dreams. dreaming of accidents, one i prevented (three am phone calls from hysterical friends telling you to fix your seatbelt helped) and the other i couldnt,i dreamed day sequences and then spoke and queued actions under my breath as a teenager.
i had an OBE or RV type of dream where i witnessed my Step great-grandfather die, only a few hours later we got a call to tell us he was dead, my mum woke me and i told her i knew... she was a little freaked.she freaked out even more when i told her the sequence of events.
i have also experienced something called clareaudience. i have heard (on many occasions) people i know talking, yet in one case he was at the other side of the continent.
i have 'feelings' that prove to be very accurate when holding jewelery items of other people. i gave up on tarot reading because i was eerrily accurate.
i was talked through the last few hours of my (12 hour, very painful) labour by my
great-grandmother... who was asleep in Tasmania... I was in Queensland.
i have had these experiences (and more) all my life. since i was a small child. my children have both had interaction with my ghost, Tony, and both reacted the exact same way. i have been told by so many people that my daughters are 'old souls' so it wouldnt surprise me at all if they had some kind of connection to the etherial side of existance.
my only true horror is a pair of reccuring dreams. the first i havent had since i was eighteen, and the second i still have on a regular basis. if anyone has any ideas i would love to hear them... ferelbushpig@hotmail.com
dream one.
i am in a clearing in a forrest. the grass is long and green and there is a gentle breeze. everything seems ok until i turn around(from the waist) and see a pure white King Cobra snake, aproximately 12 feet long, 3/4 raised hood flared. it goes to strike me but i start to run, no matter how fast i run i dont move. its as if im on a treadmill and the Cobra is in slow motion i "see" its mouth open and its fangs and that is when i wake up. cold sweat, and usualy on the floor.
dream two.
ever heard the old chestnut about "if you dream you are falling and you dont wake before you hit the bottom you die"? well ive never woken up before hitting the bottom. i run from something and plunge straight over the cliff, i can see the waves breaking on the rocks, i see the rocks speeding up towards me, i open my mouth to scream but i dont get the chance. as soon as i hit the rocks its like im jolted out of my body and i rise, slowly to see my body. always the same angle, the same injuries, sometimes different clothes but always the same ending. i watch the light turn off in my eyes an visible shutting off of my life. im not scared or worried just realy calm. then i float back down and merge into my body. i cant see anything, there is no sensory input at all and i just know im dead. then i wake up.
with this dream people who have stayed over say i sleep like a baby but when i wake up im swolen and red in certain areas.
im used to it now and i only get i
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