Obama the blowhard

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 11, 2022 17:34
VIEWED: 28456
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SIGNYM

Friday, June 6, 2014 12:40 PM

I used to get a flinch reaction every time GWB spoke, and quite frankly I've gotten to the same point with Obama. Here is the transcript of his speech at West Point.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/05/28/transcript-video-obama-lays-out-f
oreign-policy-west-point-commencement-speech

I couldn't help but notice the wandering hypocrisy, like he had lost the thread of his own propaganda ...

Quote:
In fact, by most measures America has rarely been stronger relative to the rest of the world. Those who argue otherwise — who suggest that America is in decline or has seen its global leadership slip away — are either misreading history or engaged in partisan politics. Think about it. Our military has no peer.

Yep, we spend more on our military than the rest of the world COMBINED. Nobody else - not even Russia!- has bases ALL OVER the world!

Quote:
America continues to attract striving immigrants.

Oh, that was STRIVING? I thought that was STARVING.

Quote:
Russia’s aggression towards former Soviet states unnerves capitals in Europe

Yeah, because Russia has troops, bases, and missiles all over Europe. (not) And yet, somehow, Russia is the aggressor.

Quote:
From Brazil to India, rising middle classes compete with us, and governments seek a greater say in global forums.

Yes, god help us if other governments have a greater say!

Quote:
The question we face, the question each of you will face, is not whether America will lead but how we will lead

Because, yanno, whatever we decide is right for the world is right for the world.

Quote:
not just to secure our peace and prosperity but also extend peace and prosperity around the globe.

HAHAHAHA! We've been blowing this smoke for 70 years or more. Replaced 50 governments. Somehow, we still haven't gotten this right!

Quote:
Today, according to self-described realists, conflicts in Syria or Ukraine or the Central African Republic are not ours to solve.

In particular, they're not ours to start.

Quote:
Here’s my bottom line: America must always lead on the world stage. If we don’t, no one else will. The military ... is, and always will be, the backbone of that leadership.

Again, we have the right to determine what's right for the rest of the world? And if they don't agree, we turn on the force?

Quote:
This weekend, Ukrainians voted by the millions. Yesterday, I spoke to their next president. We don’t know how the situation will play out, and there will remain grave challenges ahead, but standing with our allies on behalf of international order, working with international institutions, has given a chance for the Ukrainian people to choose their future — without us firing a shot.

The Ukrainians did that for us, thanks to pressure from that organ of American dominance- the IMF.

Quote:
... a third aspect of American leadership, and that is our effort to strengthen and enforce international order. After World War II, America had the wisdom to shape institutions to keep the peace and support human progress, from NATO and the United Nations, to the World Bank and I.M.F. These institutions are not perfect, but they have been a force multiplier. They reducing the need for unilateral American action and increase restraint among other nations.

In other words, these institutions have been the United States' tools of foreign and economic domination.

Quote:
I believe in American exceptionalism with every fiber of my being.

Yep, I kinda noticed that...

Quote:
we’re putting in place new restrictions on how America collects and uses intelligence, because we will have fewer partners and be less effective if a perception takes hold that we’re conducting surveillance against ordinary citizens.

If Snowden hadn't come forward, the WH would STILL be OK with the NSA collecting information on... well... everyone. In fa

AURAPTOR

Friday, June 6, 2014 5:27 PM

Barry's speech at West Point has been called the absolute worst received speech by the cadets and audience for a sitting President - ever.

The tepid applause showed us all just how little they admire the man.

SIGNYM

Friday, June 6, 2014 10:20 PM

Calling for continued American "leadership" throughout the world- based on threat of military violence and economic ruin- such a downer.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Calling for continued American "leadership" throughout the world- based on threat of military violence and economic ruin- such a downer.

Pretty much an all time low for this idiot. He probably doesn't get enough sleep. Sleep deprivation can cause severe mental problems in the long term.

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 2:04 AM

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 2:34 AM

Quote:
You see nothing good about this country but apparently would not like to live anywhere else either because here you stay.

Have you LOOKED AT the immigration laws of other countries??? Because I HAVE. So yeah - here I stay.

AFA doom and gloom- as the LARGEST military in the world (as Obama pointed out repeatedly) and the LARGEST ECONOMY for 70 years, and the ONLY NATION with forward bases nearly everywhere, and a military devoted to forward power projection, we have not only the greatest authority but also the greatest responsibility for the way things are the way they are. Because of that, we also have the greatest potential to make things better for the world as a whole. It's a little hard to get around that fact.

Quote:
Do you hate yourself as much as you do the rest of the free world?

Propaganda.

Yawn!

WHOZIT

Saturday, June 7, 2014 3:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Calling for continued American "leadership" throughout the world- based on threat of military violence and economic ruin- such a downer.
Pretty much an all time low for this idiot. He probably doesn't get enough sleep. Sleep deprivation can cause severe mental problems in the long term.

I hear he sleeps until 11 a.m. then plays golf, then kills someone with a drone...and has big hears.

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 4:07 AM

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 4:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
I don’t disagree with this statement except blaming America for all the worlds troubles. What I disagree with is all the time you spend posting what a terrible country America is.

Well, MIKER, come on, is this a "Things We Love About America" thread? We tend to focus on PROBLEMS with our leaders and our domestic & foreign policies here.

Not ONE thing Signy is saying is untrue. And I share her anger & frustration that our country is seemingly endlessly being steered towards the simplistic solutions our mighty military avails to us, and AWAY from the non- "let's blow shit up" alternatives.
Power corrupts. That's nothing specifically against America, just simple Human Nature.

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 5:39 AM

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
I get what you are saying but the selective nature of Signy's negative focus US,while defending others THEM, in situations in my eyes removes all credibility from what she says.

If your emotional response to her charges of wrongdoing by our government blinds you to the actual issues, then it's more you than her, bro.

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:08 AM

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
I am just pointing out what a hypocrite she is. With her what’s good for the goose is not what’s good for the gander.

Take the geese out of this equation. What if I were to point out everything that was wrong with the Soviet Union all the time & never address anything they'd ever done right or well, would YOU be accusing me of being hypocritically anti-Soviet???
Dude, seriously.

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:12 AM

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:26 AM

MIKER

Let me ask you a favor. First of all, can you tell me where Russia and China have military bases outside of their borders? I looked it up. You should too.

Now, look up a similar list for the United States.

Seriously, look it up.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:32 AM

Sig - save for perhaps Afghanistan, where is the US military that the host country hasn't invited it ?

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:46 AM

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
I have been speaking to your hatred of this country throughout this entire thread. The fact that you don't answer that shows me to be correct.

Hey MIKER, I'm really sorry here, I came to the conclusion that you weren't a Rappy sockpuppet, but that doesn't matter. You SUCK at objective analysis of factual data so precisely as badly as he, you might as well be him from a slightly different angle.
I *HATE* that scoliosis makes my back hurt. It pisses me off no end. I *HATE* this thing in my body.
But I don't hate ME.
Are we learning yet?

You and Rappster should get a room.

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:20 AM

Obama was really pumping those 2-lb. weights this week! Someone said that he makes Richard Simmons look like Vin Diesel.

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:32 AM

Quote:
I have been speaking to your hatred of this country throughout this entire thread. The fact that you have so far refused to answer that but instead post around it shows me to be correct.

MIKER, you're incomprehensible, didja know that?

Where's the question??? So what am I supposed to "answer"? All you did was make a statement. What kind of "answer" is required?

I will, however, make a counter-statement. I love my country. That's why I'm so very, very angry to see it do stupid, evil, pointless, wasteful things. I think I made that point before, but apparently it's something YOU will "never understand".

And you still haven't answered my questions.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:34 AM

@ Jong LOL, that was pretty funny, man!!

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:35 AM

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:38 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
@ Jong LOL, that was pretty funny, man!!

I tried, but couldn't find the video someone did where they synched-up Obama's 'workout' with Olivia Newton-John's "Physical". That one would have you rolling on the floor laughing.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
it appears to come from a deep seeded hatred of this country.

Sorry MIKER, this was the last nail here, whether intentional or not, I'm not discussing junk with you again here.
Yes, I AM a grammar Nazi. To this extent, anyway.

Kiss Rappy for me.

1KIKI

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:59 AM

Why is criticizing the wrong your country does called 'hatred'?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Why is criticizing the wrong your country called 'hatred'?

Apparently, it has to do with deep seeds.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I tried, but couldn't find the video someone did where they synched-up Obama's 'workout' with Olivia Newton-John's "Physical".

Oh Lords Of Kobol, the headbands!!!!!

1KIKI

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:27 AM

patriotism, rwa style

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

AURAPTOR

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

And you still haven't answered my questions.

Nor have you answered mine.

@ Jongs - I saw that. I had hoped it was some spoof, or interwebs hoax. Apparently, not.

That has to be the pussiest work out - EVER. I've seen chicks pump more iron than that in the gym. Do Malia and Sasha know daddy has their play weights ?

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 10:05 AM

Quote:
I have been speaking to your hatred of this country throughout this entire thread. The fact that you have so far refused to answer that but instead post around it shows me to be correct.

MIKER, you're incomprehensible, didja know that?

Where's the question??? So what am I supposed to "answer"? All you did was make a statement. What kind of "answer" is required?

I will, however, make a counter-statement. I love my country. That's why I'm so very, very angry to see it do stupid, evil, pointless, wasteful things. Like 6IX says- I want to do right, be right. I think I made that point before, but apparently it's something YOU will "never understand".

And you still haven't answered my question.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, June 7, 2014 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sig - save for perhaps Afghanistan, where is the US military that the host country hasn't invited it ?

1KIKI

Saturday, June 7, 2014 11:10 AM

Working backwards?

The Ukraine (do 'advisors' count?), Libya (does bombing count?), Iraq and Afghanistan.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

GEEZER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 5:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Have you LOOKED AT the immigration laws of other countries??? Because I HAVE. So yeah - here I stay.

Just out of curiosity - absent immigration hassles, where would you choose to go if you could? Where - in your opinion - is best?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

AURAPTOR

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Working backwards?

The Ukraine (do 'advisors' count?), Libya (does bombing count?), Iraq and Afghanistan.

No,and no. The issue was MILITARY BASES. Not 'advisors'.

Japan, England, Germany, S. Korea... I'm certain that if we were asked to leave those countries, we would. As we left the Philippines , after Pinatubo erupted, and they decided we didn't need to bother rebuilding the 2 airbases.

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:15 PM

Quote:
Miker, I agree with your objective analysis

WHAT "objective analysis"? That's been my point with MIKER all along... lots of feeling, lots of statements of opinion, no analysis.

For example, MIKER wonders, apparently, why I'm so negative about the America.

Did you know that my country isn't actually called "America"? At least, not by most people who live in the western hemisphere? That's because there are three Americas: north, central, and south. "America" is really known as Estados Unidos, sometimes del norte. The people living in this nation aren't "Americans" because we are ALL Americans, but gringos. But it's pretty typical of "Americans" (ie citizens of the United States) to subsume the hemispheric name to themselves.

Then, there is the list of nations with American military bases. Did you know there are 800+ military installations - including bases- ALL OVER the world? I guess - speaking of WW2 land-grabs- no other nation was really AS SUCCESSFUL at grabbing land as we were! No nation is our peer, as Obama so correctly pointed out.

And then, there is the number of governments toppled, and the number of people killed. From pre-WW2 to today, the slogans have changed - white-man's burden, remember the Alamo, anti-Communism, falling dominoes, the war on drugs, global war on terror, democratization, R2P (responsibility to protect, which sounds like white man's burden redux), back to the war on Russia- but the result almost always winds up the same:

dead people, tyrannies, and poverty. (Germany, Japan, and France were exceptions) Wow, are we clumsy at bringing peace and prosperity to the world, or what???

There was a poster here- Geezer- who is (was?) pro-military, who challenged me along those lines. It was my estimation that the USA was directly responsible for at least as many deaths as Stalin, if not more. So I assiduously looked up, and posted, all of the "interventions" that we engaged in - not even counting the massive genocide that was the birth of my nation. EVERY nation south of the "American" border was destabilized and overthrown - if not outright invaded- by the USA. The governments that we toppled were mostly democracies: Honduras and Guatemala, the so-called banana republics

Quote:
In the mid-1870s ... Keith founded the Tropical Trading and Transport Company: one-half of what would later become the United Fruit Company (Chiquita Brands International, created in 1899 by corporate merger with the Boston Fruit Company and owned by Andrew Preston). By the 1930s, the international political and economic tensions of the United Fruit Company had enabled it to gain control of 80 to 90 per cent of the U.S. banana trade. Nonetheless, despite the UFC monopoly, in 1924, the Vaccaro Brothers established the Standard Fruit Company (Dole Food Company) to export Honduran bananas to the port of New Orleans in the Gulf of Mexico coast of the U.S. The fruit exporters were able to keep U.S. prices so low because the banana companies, through their manipulation of the producing countries' national land use laws, were able to cheaply buy large tracts of prime agricultural land for banana plantations in the countries of the Caribbean Basin, the Central American isthmus, and the tropical South American countries—and, having rendered the native peoples landless through a policy of legalistic dispossession, were therefore able to employ them as low-wage workers.

, Brazil, Chile (for copper, backed by the big copper-users like Kennecott copper, Ford, and IBM), Nicaragua, etc etc. It was our support, training, funding and arming that led to death squads and "disappearances" throughout this hemisphere.

Indonesia and East Timor- Kissinger and the CIA overthrew democratically-elected Sukarno and gave his successor- Suharto- the arms with which a mill

NIKI2

Saturday, June 7, 2014 6:38 PM

Quote:
I love my country. That's why I'm so very, very angry to see it do stupid, evil, pointless, wasteful things.

Quote:
I feel the same way, no where I'd rather live, but my GOD I expect better.

About sums it up for me, although I long since gave up "expecting" any better. I don't enjoy Sig's consistent focus on the negative myself, but I understand her frustration.

Just to add that our being "invited" to house military bases in other countries isn't exactly as cut and dried as all that. Today's "warfare" includes more economic, interdependent and geopolitical aspects than in times past, but it's just as valid when it comes to a wealthy, powerful nation spreading its influence. We ARE still an empire, albeit in my view a failing one, and we still wield influence just as every empire before us has. I also don't think any other nation, given the wealth and power we have, has ever acted any better in its time. My argument is more with governments, politicians and human nature than a focus on the actions of those in this country alone.

GEEZER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There was a poster here- Geezer- who is (was?) pro-military, who challenged me along those lines. It was my estimation that the USA was directly responsible for at least as many deaths as Stalin, if not more. So I assiduously looked up, and posted, all of the "interventions" that we engaged in - not even counting the massive genocide that was the birth of my nation. EVERY nation south of the "American" border was destabilized and overthrown - if not outright invaded- by the USA. The governments that we toppled were mostly democracies: Honduras and Guatemala, the so-called banana republics

Yep. And I showed that this was sort of like blaming the U.S. for all the deaths in WWII because we participated.

As for the FREELY ELECTED DEMOCRACIES in South and Central America and places like Indonesia, I showed that many of them were either not freely elected, or had one free election before the folks elected decided that future elections were just too much trouble.

I'm sure you preserved the links to these threads, so bring 'em back and let folks decide for themselves.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:12 PM

Quote:
Yep. And I showed that this was sort of like blaming the U.S. for all the deaths in WWII because we participated.

No, you didn't. I was blaming the USA for all of the deaths WE caused. WE caused. What you're trying to do is blame everyone else for what WE did. Yanno It's all their fault. They made us do it! [/snivel]

Quote:
As for the FREELY ELECTED DEMOCRACIES in South and Central America and places like Indonesia, I showed that many of them were either not freely elected, or had one free election before the folks elected decided that future elections were just too much trouble.

No, you brought up a question about ONE central American nation (I forget which one).

But hey, feel free to bring up those threads yourself! There were three of them, as I recall.

GEEZER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But hey, feel free to bring up those threads yourself! There were three of them, as I recall.

You brought them up.

Link to them or be a liar. All the same to me.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:29 PM

"Link them or be a LIAR"? Because I can't find the links makes me a LIAR? What kind of dick ARE you, Geezer? Oh yeah, that's right- the dishonest kind. The asshole kind.

This is not the thread I was referring to, but I was making the same point then too

Quote:
MOST of our "wars" we fought for control of resources. In almost all cases, we came in on the side of the rich.... corporations, plantation owners, oil sheiks, oligarchs, dictators ... anyone who would provide our corporations with a "business-friendly", non-union, impoverished source of labor or resources.

Indian Wars (genocide)
Spanish-American War
Argentina 1890 Troops, Buenos Aires interests protected
Chile, 1891 Troops, Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
Haiti, 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
Hawaii, 1893 Naval, troops, Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
Nicaragua, 1894, Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
China, 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
Korea, 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
Panama, 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
Nicaragua, 1896,troops, Marines land in port of Corinto.
China, 1898-1900,Troops, Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
Philippines, 1898-1910, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
Cuba, 1898-1902, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
Puerto Rico, 1898, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
Guam, 1898, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
Nicaragua, 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
Samoa, 1899, Troops Battle over succession to throne.
Nicaragua 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields
Panama, 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
Honduras, 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
Dominican Republic, 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
Korea, 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
Cuba, 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
Nicaragua, 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
Honduras, 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
Panama, 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
Nicaragua, 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
Honduras, 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
China 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
Cuba 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
Panama 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
Honduras 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
Nicaragua 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
Dominican Republic 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
Mexico 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
Haiti 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
Dominican Republic 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
Cuba 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
Russia 1918-22 Naval, troops landings to fight Bolsheviks
Panama 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
Honduras 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
Guatemala 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
China 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
Honduras 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
Panama 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
China 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
El Salvador 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
Uruguay 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
Greece 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
China 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
Philippines 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
Puerto Rico 1950 Command oper

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SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:33 PM

More here

Quote:
I overlook nothing. However, didn't we drop a couple of nukes on civilian cities, killing about 200,000? Not to stop the Japanese, but to show the Russians that we were crazy sons of bitches who could, and would, drop them in their tracks if they tried to advance across the Pacific? We backed "anticommunist" Gnl Suharto who killed about a million of his people. Our little Vietnames adventure killed 2.5-5 million Vietnamese civilians. In Guatemala, we armed and trained the government that killed 200,000+ Mayans, creating "the silent Holocaust"

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=31204&mid=5
54927

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 7, 2014 7:38 PM

Further searches don't turn those threads up. However, feel free to look for them yourself. Except Geezer. He'd rather (dishonestly) accuse people of being "liars".

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:37 PM

1KIKI

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:50 PM

MikeR and Geezer

I'm curious if you have the balls/ honesty to acknowledge the truth of SignyMs claim that the US has intervened militarily in many countries - even democracies - that posed no threat, all around the globe and over a long time.

Because there are certainly enough facts to back up that claim. If you could acknowledge those facts which are incontestable, and accede to that claim, it would go a long way to giving you some credibility. Which both of you sorely lack.

But if not then I have no further interest in your posts on this topic. Because you seem to have no interest in discussing facts.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

(what I expect is that MikeR will post something unrelated and Geezer will bail - that's their pattern)

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:54 PM

1KIKI

Saturday, June 7, 2014 8:58 PM

What about this list?

Any you think might be true?

Indian Wars (genocide)
Spanish-American War
Argentina 1890 Troops, Buenos Aires interests protected
Chile, 1891 Troops, Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
Haiti, 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
Hawaii, 1893 Naval, troops, Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
Nicaragua, 1894, Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
China, 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
Korea, 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
Panama, 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
Nicaragua, 1896,troops, Marines land in port of Corinto.
China, 1898-1900,Troops, Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
Philippines, 1898-1910, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
Cuba, 1898-1902, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
Puerto Rico, 1898, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
Guam, 1898, Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
Nicaragua, 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
Samoa, 1899, Troops Battle over succession to throne.
Nicaragua 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields
Panama, 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.
Honduras, 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
Dominican Republic, 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
Korea, 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
Cuba, 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
Nicaragua, 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
Honduras, 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
Panama, 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
Nicaragua, 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
Honduras, 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
China 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
Cuba 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
Panama 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
Honduras 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
Nicaragua 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
Dominican Republic 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
Mexico 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
Haiti 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
Dominican Republic 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
Cuba 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
Russia 1918-22 Naval, troops landings to fight Bolsheviks
Panama 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
Honduras 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
Guatemala 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
China 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
Honduras 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
Panama 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
China 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
El Salvador 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
Uruguay 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
Greece 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
China 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
Philippines 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
Puerto Rico 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
Iran 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
Vietnam 1954 Use of nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
Guatemala 1954 Command operation, bombing, use of nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
Egypt 1956 Use of nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
Lebanon l

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:15 PM

1KIKI

Saturday, June 7, 2014 9:34 PM

"This is your point of view ..."

Which you seem to agree is based on reality. Well, I suppose I could google each and every one for you and post the info. If I did, would you read it? And if it indicated the US was an aggressor and killed people for territorial, economic or power gain, would you concede that the US is and has been very very wrong in a vast majority of instances? Or would you shrug it off and keep harping on how great and well intentioned it is?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 10:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Saturday, June 7, 2014 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
it appears to come from a deep seeded hatred of this country.

Sorry MIKER, this was the last nail here, whether intentional or not, I'm not discussing junk with you again here.
Yes, I AM a grammar Nazi. To this extent, anyway.

You are no grammar Nazi. If you were you would not have been able to read more than a couple posts from him since he started. If you want to claim spelling Nazi, that might be more appropo.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Saturday, June 7, 2014 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:

And you still haven't answered my questions.

Nor have you answered mine.

@ Jongs - I saw that. I had hoped it was some spoof, or interwebs hoax. Apparently, not.

That has to be the pussiest work out - EVER. I've seen chicks pump more iron than that in the gym. Do Malia and Sasha know daddy has their play weights ?

Hannity has had the link up for a while, how did you miss it?
Somebody should sue him for not wearing his tricycle helmet and setting a bad and unsafe example.

MIKER

Saturday, June 7, 2014 11:43 PM

1KIKI

Saturday, June 7, 2014 11:46 PM

Ahem. I really don't like being misrepresented. What I in fact noted was that these events were based on reality.

So, I have to ask - does the question 'who started it' mean anything in your opinion of right and wrong? Because if I can show the US 'started it' without provocation, I would think it means the US was wrong. Would you? Similarly, if I can show the US took something that wasn't theirs, would that prove the US in the wrong to you?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 8, 2014 12:02 AM

MIKER

Your first concern us that I'm "one sided?"

Huh, because that's exactly my problem with you! In your opinion, apparently, the USA does NOTHING wrong.

Or maybe what you want to hear is how we were 'forced' into all of those heinous acts by circumstances... they were going to go 'communist', they were a source of drugs, they were a source of terrorism. They made us do it. "He started it"

Okay, yanno what? My answer to that is "whatever". I'll even concede that point for the moment ('Why' we did what we did, in historical context) to get to the point I was trying to discuss, which is

No matter WHAT the reason for us invading or destabilizing/ replacing governments, once we were in charge of that nation's future (thru whoever we put in charge) we could have made those nations BETTER than before. Instead, what happened in nearly all cases, they became WORSE: poorer, more violent, less educated, less healthy, less democratic, producing more drugs. Geezer himself even posted an example, right here! http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58154

All under our aegis.

Now, we're either really, REALLY bad at managing our conquests, or white man's burden/ anticommunism/ war on drugs/ democratization/ war on terror/ R2P/ spreading peace and prosperity/ (fill in the blank here) was never really the reason we took over those nations to begin with.

Also,

Quote:
That is not the world so judging it from that perspective [utopia] is not helpful. I look at it like a bell curve and where do we as a nation sit on that curve. I feel

You feel a lot of things, MIKER, that's clear, but that's a feeling based on a belief.

Quote:
this is a more responsible and accurate way of judging events. I find it outrageous Signym gets to make comments like

Wow, I "get to" make comments? Do you mean that you think freedom of speech is outrageous? Yanno what? If you think my comments are outrageous, you should read one of those links, back to what GINO used to say.

Quote:
Those kind of statements are the norm for Signym. There is absolutely no way to verify any of that, much less all of it.

Of course there is. It's the same process by which historians say "Approximately six million Jews were killed by Hitler", or "Mao's policies starved at least 20 million people". I started with a list of US "interventions", found the historically-accepted death estimates (killed by weapons) and added them up. It's probably a conservative estimate because it doesn't include death by disease or starvation.

I urge you to do the same thing. You don't have to be hostage to my figures.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 8, 2014 12:31 AM

G

Quote:
Answer: His analysis was of you and your approach to many topics, but specifically to Ukraine. It does seem a might [sic] black and white. Considering there are humans with a great deal of emotion and sell-interest on both sides, and how the only land grabbing that has happened so far has been by Russia, it's hard to believe any assessment that is so one sided.

I'm black and white about Ukraine??? I'm to one who has been consistently saying that Ukraine is a divided nation, that opinions on whether to join the EU, join even more closely with Russia, or stay in the middle are all over the spectrum. That a significant minority (30-35%) of the people did NOT want to join the EU trade region, particularly with the IMF's austerity as part of the package. That some of them are pro-western liberals but some of them are fascists.

As far as land-grabs, you are once again seeing everything only from the western perspective. Ukraine as part of the EU trade bloc seems only right and natural to you, not at all a land-grab by the west. From the other side of the border, however, this was a threat to Russia's naval base and an area for NATO expansion- it was definitely a western land-grab. Which it was- fostered by the EU and the USA, provided political cover, money, and now military weapons and merc/ CIA/FBI support. Crimea voted itself out. It was a vote taken under the eye of western observers and in all probability reflects the will of the people.

In reality, there is only one side.

But real life calls.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 8, 2014 1:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Your first concern us that I'm "one sided?"

You ARE one sided, Signy.
The WRONG side. The side of TRUTH.
This is unacceptable. You need to pick a team, and BACK IT UP no matter what. That's how the game is played. You can't roam around the buffet table picking out truth here & truth there as it pleases you, you have to accept the WHOLE menu from a single chosen restaurant monopoly!

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 3:40 AM

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 8, 2014 3:50 AM

You can read the list. You can research anything on it you are not already aware of. You can cry like a baby. You can whine like a child.
All this is within the scope of your abilities.

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 3:54 AM

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:09 AM

Here, I took the last one on the list & googled it:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/07/yemen.missiles/

Quote:
Yemeni government officials had said the December 17, 2009, attack in southern Yemen targeted an al Qaeda training camp, according to Amnesty International. The attack killed 55 people, including 14 alleged members of the terrorist group, the organization said. Civilians killed included 14 women and 21 children, Amnesty International said.

See how easy that is? And if you don't like one source, you can compare that report to a dozen others.

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:14 AM

1KIKI

Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:20 AM

I'll take B Bob!

Because America is always killing people for no good reason.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:25 AM

1KIKI

Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:26 AM

I was making fun of the choices you posted. Duh.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:27 AM

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 4:31 AM

1KIKI

Sunday, June 8, 2014 5:11 AM

I asked you what would constitute proof. I asked you if ONCE YOU HAD IT you would be capable of learning from facts. I'm not going to go through the effort if you do a rappy or a geezer.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 5:25 AM

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 8, 2014 5:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I asked you what would constitute proof.

That's precisely it, NOTHING constitutes proof. Amnesty International is a bunch of liars.
Any source will be either the Lefty MSM, or Socialist America-hating propaganda-pushers. That's the end of the road for fools who can't do the research their own selves. Pick a team & root for 'em. Buddha forbid you do some READING or some spade work or some comparative analysis or some such difficult stuff like that. And it's SO hard to trace down events and conjure motive based on economic perks. Numbers are hard to add & subtract. And Oh my- the hard words.
And lest we forget, Jesus was a Capitalist.

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 5:37 AM

1KIKI

Sunday, June 8, 2014 5:46 AM

prof?

Btw what do you think I posted as proof? You claim you've seen it. Yet I never posted any such. So go ahead. Show me. What did I post as proof?

Otherwise, I'm done. You've got nothing and now you're arguing about trivial stuff to avoid the topic.

Very trollish of you.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 5:50 AM

1KIKI

Sunday, June 8, 2014 5:56 AM

definition of a troll: "and I refuse to chase others in a mindless, endless circle of " debate " on the internet. If I 'bitch out' of a discussion, I've said all I'm going to say on the matter, my views have been presented, and there's nothing left to add."

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 6:00 AM

AURAPTOR

Sunday, June 8, 2014 6:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Hannity has had the link up for a while, how did you miss it?
Somebody should sue him for not wearing his tricycle helmet and setting a bad and unsafe example.

Rarely do I watch Sean. His whole persona is too grating for my likes. I can take his tone for only a few minutes, and then I have to go sip some earl grey tea.

MAL4PREZ

Sunday, June 8, 2014 6:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by MIKER:
I have been speaking to your hatred of this country throughout this entire thread. The fact that you don't answer that shows me to be correct.
Hey MIKER, I'm really sorry here, I came to the conclusion that you weren't a Rappy sockpuppet...

You erred there. This thread: more of what I expect from IT.

*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*

MIKER

Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:09 AM

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
You erred there.

My bad.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 8, 2014 12:35 PM

G, I wanted to add (before real-life intervened) ...

Also, Ukraine looks like a (western) land-grab to the USA State Department and DoD as well.That's why Nuland (State) was picking Presidents months before the election. The only people to whom Ukraine does NOT look like a western land-grab are western liberals, who believe that the entire world is made of western liberals yearning to emerge and break free.

AFA where I would move ... yanno, I don't have to answer EVERY question that's put to me, especially personal ones. I find your insistence that I answer that question both rude and ill-intentioned.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 8, 2014 12:38 PM

MIKER left and took all of his comments with him?

Well, I hope he learned something,

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, June 8, 2014 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MIKER left and took all of his comments with him?

How.... interesting.

Bye bye KIRKULES, I'd say it was nice to see you again, if, yanno, it was.

So now we know, cause I recall him doing exactly the same thing when he stormed out in a huff...

-F

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:54 PM

Well, I prolly wouldn't insist in Geezer answering the question as to whether or when he would marry his long-term partner. It's really his business, not mine.

The problem with answering that question is, if I pick an English-speaking nation - perhaps one of the commonwealth nations- you'd say that I didn't really believe in what I was saying. If I mentioned a few socialist nations, you say AHA! I knew all along you were a hater of America! Suffice it to say that we looked at a number of smaller nations, some English-speaking and some not. I think I would be OK with living here to the end of my days, yanno- fighting the good fight- but I'm really afraid for our daughter. As a nation and as a culture, I think the USA has lost its way. We've raced headlong into being a brutal, hyper-militarized, over-surveilled free-for-all, where anything is tolerated except resistance to the corporate state.

SIGNYM

Sunday, June 8, 2014 7:59 PM

FREM

MIKER = Kirkules, eh?

NIKI2

Monday, June 9, 2014 5:59 PM

Here's an interesting question (maybe). Given all the anger at those who disapprove of America's actions, would anyone like to note any nation which was rich and powerful enough to do so, and which had a mighty military, which HASN'T behaved in pretty much the same manner as America has?

It's certainly easy enough to mention MANY nations who, at the peak of their power, behaved worse than America...but have any behaved better?

AURAPTOR

Monday, June 9, 2014 7:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Here's an interesting question (maybe). Given all the anger at those who disapprove of America's actions, would anyone like to note any nation which was rich and powerful enough to do so, and which had a mighty military, which HASN'T behaved in pretty much the same manner as America has?

It's certainly easy enough to mention MANY nations who, at the peak of their power, behaved worse than America... but have any behaved better?

" if the USA doesn't lead, someone else will. "

Kinda the mission statement for PNAC folks, ain't it ?

I for one strongly believe others would act worse. Much worse.

SIGNYM

Monday, June 9, 2014 7:59 PM

G

I don't want my personal situation to be a factor in what I consider the larger argument of USA hegemony and militarism.

Yes, we looked at the Scandinavian countries, also Iceland, Costa Rica, New Zealand, and others. But it doesn't matter WHICH country we might prefer, they all have pretty much the same immigration policies. Those policies would deem us too old and with too much medical baggage- including our disabled daughter- to be a welcome addition to their economy.

I get it, I really do. Why would any nation want people who have no possibility of future contribution to the society? Nations with generous health and social benefits would soon be overwhelmed by dependents. It's only the USA that expects to be an endless sink for emigrants.

SIGNYM

Monday, June 9, 2014 8:12 PM

Quote:
Here's an interesting question (maybe). Given all the anger at those who disapprove of America's actions, would anyone like to note any nation which was rich and powerful enough to do so, and which had a mighty military, which HASN'T behaved in pretty much the same manner as America has?

Currently? China, Russia, India, Germany, Japan.... in fact, nearly everybody.

China - even though it has an economy nearly as large as the USA (by some measures larger) it has ONE military base outside of its borders, in India, opened in 2011.

The former Soviet Union, even though it had a large economy and military, in most places that it colonized it opened schools, medical clinics, and built roads. Living standards went UP for the average person. In contrast, the USA puts in banks and military installations, and the living standards of the average person DROPS.

The current Russia, which has about 10 military bases/installations outside of its borders, compared to the USA's 800.

India, a billion+ people, and altho poverty-stricken could field a considerable army if it so chose.

The answer to your question, NIKI, is right in Obama's speech. But perhaps you didn't catch all of the implications of what he said.

If everyone were 'as bad as' the USA, they would be fielding a foreign military 'as large as' the USA, or at least proportionate to their economies. THEY DON'T. The USA military is LARGER THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. The USA economy? Not so much! That shows a strongly disproportionate commitment to militarily dominating the rest of the world.

It's demonstrated by simple arithmetic. Liberals! Sheesh![/snark]

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, June 9, 2014 8:34 PM

I agree with everything you said Siggs....

GWB was the former propagator of such.

Somehow, I'm the unreasonable one because I drink....

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I used to get a flinch reaction every time GWB spoke, and quite frankly I've gotten to the same point with Obama. Here is the transcript of his speech at West Point.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2014/05/28/transcript-video-obama-lays-out-f
oreign-policy-west-point-commencement-speech

I couldn't help but notice the wandering hypocrisy, like he had lost the thread of his own propaganda ...

Quote:
In fact, by most measures America has rarely been stronger relative to the rest of the world. Those who argue otherwise — who suggest that America is in decline or has seen its global leadership slip away — are either misreading history or engaged in partisan politics. Think about it. Our military has no peer.

Yep, we spend more on our military than the rest of the world COMBINED. Nobody else - not even Russia!- has bases ALL OVER the world!

Quote:
America continues to attract striving immigrants.
Oh, that was STRIVING? I thought that was STARVING.

Quote:
Russia’s aggression towards former Soviet states unnerves capitals in Europe
Yeah, because Russia has troops, bases, and missiles all over Europe. (not) And yet, somehow, Russia is the aggressor.

Quote:
From Brazil to India, rising middle classes compete with us, and governments seek a greater say in global forums.
Yes, god help us if other governments have a greater say!

Quote:
The question we face, the question each of you will face, is not whether America will lead but how we will lead
Because, yanno, whatever we decide is right for the world is right for the world.

Quote:
not just to secure our peace and prosperity but also extend peace and prosperity around the globe.
HAHAHAHA! We've been blowing this smoke for 70 years or more. Replaced 50 governments. Somehow, we still haven't gotten this right!

Quote:
Today, according to self-described realists, conflicts in Syria or Ukraine or the Central African Republic are not ours to solve.
In particular, they're not ours to start.

Quote:
Here’s my bottom line: America must always lead on the world stage. If we don’t, no one else will. The military ... is, and always will be, the backbone of that leadership.
Again, we have the right to determine what's right for the rest of the world? And if they don't agree, we turn on the force?

Quote:
This weekend, Ukrainians voted by the millions. Yesterday, I spoke to their next president. We don’t know how the situation will play out, and there will remain grave challenges ahead, but standing with our allies on behalf of international order, working with international institutions, has given a chance for the Ukrainian people to choose their future — without us firing a shot.
The Ukrainians did that for us, thanks to pressure from that organ of American dominance- the IMF.

Quote:
... a third aspect of American leadership, and that is our effort to strengthen and enforce international order. After World War II, America had the wisdom to shape institutions to keep the peace and support human progress, from NATO and the United Nations, to the World Bank and I.M.F. These institutions are not perfect, but they have been a force multiplier. They reducing the need for unilateral American action and increase restraint among other nations.
In other words, these institutions have been the United States' tools of foreign and economic domination.

Quote:
I believe in American exceptionalism with every fiber of my being.
Yep, I kinda noticed that...

Quote:
we’re putting in place new restrictions on how America collects and uses intelligence, because we will have fewer partners and be less effective if a perception takes hold that we’re

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

NIKI2

Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:07 PM

I wasn't speak of just military bases, Sig, I was talking about BEHAVIOR. Nowadays, military isn't the only way to wield power in the world, it's only one aspect of it and, in a way, not the most effective one. Beyond that, you have yet to list any country that has an economy as big or bigger than ours and has been for long enough to create a military the size of ours, the political influence worldwide to be "asked" to put military bases in other countries, and much more. It's not as simple as your response indicates, in my opinion.

China/Russia/etc. are certainly involved in cyber warfare, political pressure and other things which wield undue influence in the rest of the world. That was my point.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, June 11, 2014 6:43 PM

It IS just that simple, NIKI.The military is how you impose your will on any other nation. Do you think that the USA would have gotten to this point of economic and financial dominance WITHOUT the military? Here's one example: That deal that we made with Saudi Arabia... the one about the petrodollar that was made in 1971... the one that made the USA dollar the world reserve currency... was made on the back of complete USA military dominance of the middle east, the kind of dominance that allowed us to CREATE a leadership that never existed before i.e.- the Saudi Royal Family. Originally they were nothing more than a tribe like the other tribes on the Saudi Peninsula until the USA came along and backed them as the leadership.

Nearly every nation that we conquered militarily was in order to gain dominance for our banks and corporations. We were quite successful at it too, robbing the indigenous wealth and labor power from our neighbors to the south before turning our attention to the Philippines, SE Asia, the ME, and elsewhere.

Here's an example of one economically dominant kingdom which DIDN'T do what we did: China has been a self-identified kingdom since long before the Christ was born. It could have conquered much of southern Asia and the Middle East, if it so chose. In fact, one of the emperors began the process of colonization by sending out fleets of Chinese ships. The subsequent emperor, however, burned them to the waterline.

http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/f/zhenghefaq.htm

I could point to many kingdoms of the past- advanced civilizations such as Mojenjo-Daro and the Minoan cultures which existed far longer than the USA has (so far)- which did NOT engage in militaristic domination. I'm sure that if I were a true historian and knew more of African, South American, Asian and other histories, I could point to more.

And of nations today, my point - which you may not have understood- is that if these nations were "as bad as" the United States, they would be engaging in militarism at least on an economically proportionate scale as the USA but they don't. That is why USA militarism is so disproportionately large, compared to economic ranking.

Yeah, there've been other empires as militaristic as ours in the past (Roman and British empires come to mind) but they weren't the ONLY advanced, economically dominant cultures around, and not everyone became an international predator.

You always like to think that It's not really that bad but the reality is that it's far worse than you think, especially if you happen to be the one ground under the bootheel.

AFA cyberwarfare... pffffttt! If our NSA was really interested in computer security, they would have NEVER insisted on building so many backdoors into the dominant operating systems. It IS possible to have real security, you just need to know what you're doing and have a system-wide approach to achieving it.

I gotta say, IMHO the world's worst problem right now is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over.

NIKI2

Thursday, June 12, 2014 6:06 PM

I'm not going to debate you, it's not worth either of our time; the days when I was willing to spend the time getting into a detailed debate here are long past. And I believe your opinions are too firmly entrenched for us to have a reasonable debate. I'm merely making the point that our nation's behavior isn't that much different from others, in perspective.

You don't know me: "You always like to think that It's not really that bad" is your judgment, and, as usual when it has come to me, untrue. I'm well aware of our government's negatives, and I freely admit "the world's worst problem RIGHT NOW is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over." That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.

I agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.

NIKI2

Friday, June 13, 2014 5:38 PM

Relatively speaking I'm sure, Brenda, but again, I was talking perspective...and into that go so many things, including how rich we got from WWII and how it thrust us into a power position and so many others. I never said we weren't the worst currently, just not the only ones. Who knows, in another century, could be you guys, or Magons', as our empire weakens, or anyone else, is what I'm trying to say. Throughout human history, as nations grow, as they get rich and powerful, they exert that power. I don't think there's an exception to that...yet. Certainly I could be wrong.

SIGNYM

Friday, June 13, 2014 11:46 PM

Quote:
That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.

Then you have chosen to ignore the historic examples of nations/ kingdoms that COULD HAVE been hemispheric-class predators but chose not to be.

You/re right, NIKI. Your opinion is too firmly entrenched to be changed by anything as simple as mere facts.

THGRRI

Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.
Then you have chosen to ignore the historic examples of nations/ kingdoms that COULD HAVE been hemispheric-class predators but chose not to be.

You/re right, NIKI. Your opinion is too firmly entrenched to be changed by anything as simple as mere facts.

What history is that?

si shen

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 14, 2014 3:14 AM

China, the Harrapan civilization, and the Minoan civilization. Quite possibly more, it's just that I'm not a historian.

I don't think that great economic powers inevitably become great military powers and colonizers, so while the USA seems to be following in the tradition of the western colonialism, in the spectrum of great civilizations it's on militarized end of the spectrum.

THGRRI

Saturday, June 14, 2014 3:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
China, the Harrapan civilization, and the Minoan civilization. Quite possibly more, it's just that I'm not a historian.

Harappan Civilization: Existed in ca. 3000-1500 BC. Of course the Harappan Civilization did not try and influence its neighbors too much, it would be a long walk.

Minoan civilization: The island of Crete, is an Island and had I guess what you could call a fleet back in the days of Plato.

China: If you mean back then, In 206 BC, when the Han dynasty was founded,
China stretched from modern Shenyang (some 500 km north of Beijing) in the north to around Guilin in the south; from the Pacific in the east to well past Chongqing in the west. Until Russia laid claim to Far East Siberia, China was the largest country in the world.

How do you think it got that big?

If you mean China today it is starting to grab territory. Look what is happening off the coasts of Vietnam and Japan. They did not have the resources in the more recent past to get involved around the world.

Quote:

China: http://countrystudies.us/china/83.htm
Despite the burst of progress in the 1980s, the Chinese economy still shared many basic characteristics with the economies of other developing countries. The gross national product per capita in 1986 was -Y849, or about US$228 (at the 1986 exchange rate), reflecting the low average level of labor productivity. As in many countries that did not begin sustained industrialization efforts until the middle of the twentieth century, the majority of the Chinese labor force--over 60 percent--was still employed in agriculture, which produced around 30 percent of the value of national output. Agricultural work still was performed primarily by hand. Modern equipment was in general use in industry but was largely typified by outdated designs and low levels of efficiency.

I wonder why you would make accusatory statements about a country being overly aggressive when compared to the rest of the world, and then admit you do not know too much about the history of the rest of the world?

si shen

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 14, 2014 5:20 AM

I'm talking about China when it burned its imperial fleet, but could have easily taken over southern Asia and parts of the ME. (I posted about that and provided a link earlier)

The civilizations that I mentioned were advanced and economically powerful for their day. The Harappan civilization and its cities covered a large part of the Indus valley, and traded far and wide, with Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Unlike many of the extant civilizations, the Harappans didn't field any armies or engage in conquests. Because of the intricate seals and standardized weight sets, it appears the Harappan civilization cities depended primarily on trade of surplus agricultural and artisan goods. The same could be said for Minoan civilization, which depended on trade, not conquest, for its wealth.

THGRRI

Saturday, June 14, 2014 5:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm talking about China when it burned its imperial fleet, but could have easily taken over southern Asia and parts of the ME.

I'm sorry, I did not realize you were talking about a small part of their history and ignoring the rest.

My mistake

si shen

SIGNYM

Saturday, June 14, 2014 7:35 AM

Quote:
I'm sorry, I did not realize you were talking about a small part of their history and ignoring the rest.

I was responding to NIKI, who said

Quote:
That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.

I was merely giving examples of civilizations which had the wealth and opportunity, and chose not to, at various points in history not to become conquerors (not at ALL points in history)

As it turns out, NIKI and I agree on one thing, and that is

Quote:
the world's worst problem RIGHT NOW is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over.

This isn't short-term aberration from out history, however, but unfortunately describes the arc of almost our entire development, which began in slavery and genocide and has "progressed" through hemispheric and then world domination and exploitation.

And what's the point whether other nations would behave the same or not? We criticize Nazi Germany, do we not? We don't try to excuse their behavior because they acted just like some other horrific conquering nation. I hear a lot of excuses about our militarism and inequity. From the right, it's all about fear and greed. From liberals, its to support President Milquetoast, who has betrayed them in every possible way. Nothing ever changes.

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