450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 14:59
VIEWED: 29463
PAGE 32 of 46
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Had the United States acted as other nations have traditionally acted when given the military and economic power we have...then there would be an American Empire spreading beyond the Western Hemisphere (assuming somebody like the United States wasn't out there to stop us).
Arguably that is the case.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
What I'm lookin' for, Kwickster, is proof claim that there are Christian Terrorist here in America. People who wantonly kill people in the name of Jesus Christ.
Like the Lambs of God?
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Quote:
Like the Lambs of God?
Enlighten me, my friend. I'm only finding a heavy metal group for that name.
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Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is
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Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:Quote:
Like the Lambs of God?
Enlighten me, my friend. I'm only finding a heavy metal group for that name.
*********************************************
Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is
Sorry, Lambs of Christ. They're a Christian group that advocates and carries out bombings and murders of people associated with abortion clinics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lambs_of_Christ
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"... wantonly kill people ..."
Is that different from sniper fire (Dr. Barnett Slepian killed by James Charles Kopp, who was affiliated with The Lambs of Christ, a Christian terrorist organization), or from bombing clinics and public events (Army of God), or from posting hit lists (christiangallery) ?
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Silence is consent.
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Actually Koresh was cleared of those accusations even before the feds rolled in on him - as well, despite claims to the contrary, not one illegal weapon was every recovered.
The POINT of it all is that you cannot blame an entire belief system for the actions of individuals claiming to hold that belief unless you are willing to apply that broad brush to all of them - and you might bear in mind you happen to be discussing this with someone who has two metal pins in their ankle following an outright attempted murder by members of a local Christian congregation that was entirely religion-inspired.
And yet, some of my staunchest allies in child protective work are also Christian, one of whom is a former nun who's a heck of a lady and a bit of moral inspiration - one of the few folk whos advice I will listen to when an issue gets morally complex, despite not sharing her beliefs.
It ain't the belief systems, it's the people who use them as a vessel to gain power, or as an excuse for behavior that's not only inexcusable, but also contrary to the belief itself!
The Muslim faith has some pretty strong words on the treatment of captives, women, children and noncombatants - as well as an outright injunction against proselytizing, where it's clearly indicated they are to lead by example, and that is also echoed by Christian belief in several biblical passages.
And all three beliefs, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - state a familiar relation and explicitly forbid the practice of fratricide, which to anyone who truly holds those beliefs within them, must be revolting to watch as those claiming the belief defile it in His name.
And just for the education of those who believe that said beliefs cannot co-exist in peace, allow me to point out that they can and have, Mohammed penned the Medina Compact in 622 AD allowing for exactly that, and including many concepts found in our own modern Constitution and Bill of Rights.
I think that a failure to understand just how fanatics have distorted the quran to suit their purposes is a detriment to the possibility of convincing their own people to chuck these numnutz out of power - were we to remove our threat against their whole region, culture and belief, and refine it against ONLY those fanatical elements while expressing our ire at their defilement of His word... we'd pick up a hell of a lot more allies than considering anyone of that belief whatsoever to be evil-by-default.
Just cause I don't care for, nor practice, a belief doesn't mean I know nothing OF it, and for a fact I know more about most common beliefs than many of the folk who DO practice them, enough to argue with their interpretations of it clearly in contravention of plainly stated principles.
If one wants to tar all of Islam, or all folk of arabic descent and culture, with a single brush, then one should not be too damn surprised when someone picks up that same brush to smear their honkey cracker whitebread bible thumpin asses.
Did it never occur to you that the locals hate them fanatics, but wincingly tolerate them as the only effective defense against continued american exploitations and abuses ?
It's just thinly veiled racism and intolerance, is all it is, so don't be surprised when someone rips the veil off and calls one on it.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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HERO
Quote:I suppose our army bases throught the Middle East and Asia don't count as a military empire in support of capitalism? (Just to hammer that nail a little, 'cause it's sticking up)
there would be an American Empire spreading beyond the Western Hemisphere (assuming somebody like the United States wasn't out there to stop us).
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HEROQuote:I suppose our army bases throught the Middle East and Asia don't count as a military empire in support of capitalism? (Just to hammer that nail a little, 'cause it's sticking up)
there would be an American Empire spreading beyond the Western Hemisphere (assuming somebody like the United States wasn't out there to stop us).
----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
Or, y'know, those little bitty forays we made in trying to extend our empire into places like Korea and Vietnam... Or were we just practicing The Domino Theory in reverse, hoping we could prop them all up like dominoes, so they'd never fall?
Mike
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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I'd have thought the obvious examples would be the westward expansion. The US went from 13 States clinging to the edge of the continent, to a nation that stretches from "sea to shining sea". Much of it through military conflict with contemporaries such as Mexico, and American natives. Manifest destiny anyone? Just because America isn't referred to as an Empire, doesn't mean it isn't one in the same vein as the empires of it's contemporary European rivals.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
You are making the mistake of looking at what the United States has done without placing it in a historical context or comparing it to the actions of other nations.
Following WW2 the United States rebuilt its allies and enemies and engaged most of them in economic, social, and military partnerships designed to promote peace, mutual security, and prosperity. The Soviet Union conquered its neighbors, enslaving entire nations behind an "Iron Curtain" ruled with absolute military force and attempted to spread that domination and control through a pattern of global destabilization and outright conquest.
In the years prior to WW2 the United States and Germany were the leading world powers. One conquered, the other liberated (but only after being attacked).
Had the United States acted as other nations have traditionally acted when given the military and economic power we have...then there would be an American Empire spreading beyond the Western Hemisphere (assuming somebody like the United States wasn't out there to stop us).
You are making the mistake of looking down a myopic lens on history, one which places the US at the centre of everything and as an absolute force for good in the world.
Where to begin? Prior to WW2, there weren't just two world powers as you claim. It was the last decades of the colonial era, where a number of empires were falling to pieces, while still jostling for power, while new empires were emerging.
ww2 was the final death knoll for the European empires, they were basically to shed most of their colonies and influence throughout the world over the following decades (although by regrouping into one economic partnership, they repositioned themselves on the world stage)> US and USSR emerged as the major world powers, at least for a time.
Empires come in many shapes and sizes, some of them are better than others. There is no doubt that the US has the features of an empire, albeit a different kind to those of the colonial era. There is also no doubt that as an empire, you score much higher on the morality scale than the former USSR, but that aint saying much.
Empires have their own best interest at the forefront of their decision making. Rebuilding after WW2 was in the best interest of the US, otherwise it wouldn't have happened. The US has and does continue to flex its military and economic muscle first and foremost for the sake of its own gain, as other empires have done in the past. As someone pointed out earlier, the US has military bases throughout the world and has actively and covertly engaged in regime change to safeguard its 'markets'.
In all of this, I'm not saying that there hasn't been benefits from the US actions for some of the world (particularly those that support and engage in US trade and military action). But that was pretty much the case with other empires as well. ie What have the Romans ever done for us?
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