Exploring Anti-Americanism
POSTED BY: Khyron
UPDATED: Monday, April 30, 2007 03:01
VIEWED: 18266
PAGE 1 of 3
Thought some of you might find this interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6547881.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/6592479.stm
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
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This was really fascinating, Khyron. I think that if people could open a polite and thoughtful discourse about the subject, maybe America could improve relations with other countries and vice versa.
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"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."
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I'm not sure if I would say that is is sad but it is certainly true that most of America still does'nt realise just how much their nation is vilified by people in supposedly "friendly" countries all over the world.
I live in a relitively small seaside-town on the east coast of England that happens to have a large foriegn -language school in it and almost all of the students that i host in my home from all over the world declare a dislike and even hatred of the USA. Most of them see you as war-mongering arogants who are out to bleed the world white.
So, how are you going to prove them wrong?
For myself, I only have to read some of the threads on this board to cause me to heave a sigh of resignation at your country's innevitable future.
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Quote:For the most part, I consider it futile to prove bigots wrong. They will believe whatever they want to believe regardless of how rational it is. What can I do? And how much should I really care?
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
So, how are you going to prove them wrong?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Don't feel like responding to your whole post, but some people can't be proven wrong because they're bigots, and some of those who unconditionally hate America certainly bear all the hallmarks of being just that. Hating America is an accepted and somewhat fashionable type of prejudice, and while anti-Americanism is certainly borne out of principle in many cases (with some justification), it's mostly so popular simply because it's just trendy. Sort of the lowest common denominator of political statement (some of those involved might even call it philosphical movement or principle). It's become the Myspace or Pop Idols of ideology.
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
... almost all of the students that i host in my home from all over the world declare a dislike and even hatred of the USA. Most of them see you as war-mongering arogants who are out to bleed the world white.
So, how are you going to prove them wrong?
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
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I think it comes from the belief that you can't victimise the big guy, kinda the same logic that says you can insult the WASP male when insulting anyone else makes you a racist/sexist. I think there is a general feeling taht it's OK to insult America just because they are the big kid on the block. Oh and there is a big side helping of envy in there too.
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Going by my own purely subjective experience, I think there is a helping of disappointed admiration in there.
Growing up, TV America as portrayed in movies and tv shows (which are everywhere), tied to the role it played for Europe in WW2 and its glorified revolutionary past, seems to be the coolest thing ever, because it's a distorted fictional reality that no other country exports in this way. (Not saying that's a bad thing to do, just a fact.)
Then the more young people start actually paying attention to the world, its flaws start to emerge. They had slavery? They waged war of questionable justification? They make questionable choices now?
Never mind that every country has its flaws, America's become more apparent in how positive and all over the place it is presented in the media. The contrast, I think, makes people irrational, causing an overt rejection and vilification.
It's like a child rejecting a disappointing role model, I think, ignoring that a role model is just a projection upon a person.
But that's just my lowly theory regarding younger people.
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"to the kind of democracy that celebrates and encourages ordinariness"
Yes. that is America to a 'T'. But not just ordinariness - ignorance and small mindedness. Americans foster that, celebrate that, memorialize that. I mean, where else do you have people passing laws about teaching evolution? And what better place to look for the epitome of American values made whole than to dubya?
Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took ...
I don't know much about art, but I know what I like.
So are Americans 'ugly' and hateful? You betcha - and by choice.
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I think Webb ignores some very real facts about America that make it very likely that we WILL be hated. The first is that we spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined. That, and our 800 military installations around the world make our military footprint large and very resented. In addition, our previous lock on international banking and the UN made it impossible for other people to be heard.
Webb also makes some blatantly inaccurate statements about supposed lack of European success. Germany in particular has been growing very quickly, and the Euro is rising relative to the dollar. (Good thing I invested in forex).
And most American are completely ignorant about the rest of the world, and about a science and technology as well. Most people think that the USA represents the highest order of civilization. They have no idea that many other nations are ahead of us on a number of key quality of life and economic indicators. (For example, new technology is never introduced into the USA- we're too backwards. It's usually introduced into Japan and Europe first.)
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Always look upstream.
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Oh. Yeah. And that. What he said.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
I think it comes from the belief that you can't victimise the big guy, kinda the same logic that says you can insult the WASP male when insulting anyone else makes you a racist/sexist. I think there is a general feeling taht it's OK to insult America just because they are the big kid on the block. Oh and there is a big side helping of envy in there too.
Grandpa used to say "If you stick your head up above the crowd, somebodys' gonna throw a rock at it"
Now the French, they have always bad mouthed everyone because they think thier language, art, fashion, and cuisine is so much better.
Another saying from Grandpa that is relevant--- "People remember the bad things you do for much longer that the good things"
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Yep, nothing like having a military presence everywhere to stick your head above the crowd. Also, mebbe we shuld stop "doing" so much, that way people will have neither the good nor the bad to remember!
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So are Americans 'ugly' and hateful? You betcha - and by choice.
And we apparently generalize a lot.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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By your own example, I'd say so.
Not a snit fit or anything, I just thought your post was exquisitely ironic.
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Quote:Recognizing a problem is the first step towards fixing it. But seeing as most Americans drive instead of walk, that first step is usually avoided.
Originally posted by Geezer:
And we apparently generalize a lot.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I think Webb ignores some very real facts about America that make it very likely that we WILL be hated. The first is that we spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined. That, and our 800 military installations around the world make our military footprint large and very resented. In addition, our previous lock on international banking and the UN made it impossible for other people to be heard.
The self-hatred appears to be another unique quality about America.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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What ??
SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?
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Quote:Geez, if your dad treated your mom not-so-well, would you refrain from criticizing him for fear of sounding like a dad-hater?
Originally posted by Geezer:
The self-hatred appears to be another unique quality about America.
Just curious Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What ??
SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?
That's what happens when someone is totally incapable of believing that they are anything but a perfect, shining example of what everyone else should be.
Reminds me of the parents who insist their kid is a perfect little angel, even after said little angel has rolled another kid for their lunch money.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
By your own example, I'd say so.
Not a snit fit or anything, I just thought your post was exquisitely ironic.
And your example, as well. And your post is equally ironic.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
By your own example, I'd say so.
Not a snit fit or anything, I just thought your post was exquisitely ironic.
Yep. your quote was an example of generalization as insult. No irony intended. I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people, with a multitude of backgrounds and beliefs, living in a country as big as all of Europe, as "ugly and hateful". Wow! A masterpiece of generalization indeed.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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One of Webb's points was that often protests over issues(e.g. against nuclear weapons) tend to focus on the American aspect of an issue (e.g. America's nuclear weapons). I think he has a point there. Many people have died as a result of the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan, and there's a weekly protest over that on the campus of my university. But many people have also died in Iraq and Afghanistan as a result of the actions of the people we're fighting against; but there's no protest against, for instance, the Mahdi Army. I find that curious. Anybody care to comment?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What ??
SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?
That's what happens when someone is totally incapable of believing that they are anything but a perfect, shining example of what everyone else should be.
Reminds me of the parents who insist their kid is a perfect little angel, even after said little angel has rolled another kid for their lunch money.
Remember that rant about how we've divided ourselves into camps along political/ideological lines and how we don't even listen to each other any more? Yeah. That's what we're doing here.
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Quote:Only if you define "self" (ie America) as its worst qualities and then feel that you must defend them. My definition of America is about all the good things America represents, not our pervasive military presence and rank ignorance. So I'm allowed to criticize some of our bad qualities because I don't feel that's "us".
The self-hatred appears to be another unique quality about America
But I think Chris said it better than I did.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
My definition of America is about all the good things America represents, not our pervasive military presence and rank ignorance. So I'm allowed to criticize some of our bad qualities because I don't feel that's "us".
Four questions:
1) Is America's military bad as such?
2) Is America's military presence in other parts of the world bad as such?
3) What do you mean by "rank ignorance"?
4) What are the "good things"?
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Quote:That's simply that we protest the "actions taken in our name as Americans" thing IMO.
Originally posted by Causal:
but there's no protest against, for instance, the Mahdi Army. I find that curious. Anybody care to comment?
For instance, I wouldn't have protested about what Hitler was doing to Jews, I'd just join the army to help stop it. But I would protest us NOT taking action against him.
Maybe that's over-simplifying it too much; I don't know. But I do feel the trendy-ness of the anti-american (militaristic) thing in my international-like college town. When things become trendy, and little knowledge is there to back up a position that is generally acceptable, that's when the trouble starts....
BAAAAA Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:That's simply that we protest the "actions taken in our name as Americans" thing IMO.
Originally posted by Causal:
but there's no protest against, for instance, the Mahdi Army. I find that curious. Anybody care to comment?
For instance, I wouldn't have protested about what Hitler was doing to Jews, I'd just join the army to help stop it. But I would protest us NOT taking action against him.
Maybe that's over-simplifying it too much; I don't know. But I do feel the trendy-ness of the anti-american (militaristic) thing in my international-like college town. When things become trendy, and little knowledge is there to back up a position that is generally acceptable, that's when the trouble starts....
Yeah...one of the guy in my class proudly sports a "Support the Iraqi Resistance" banner on his MySpace page. Don't think he really knows what that means (and when pressed he just stammered)--I suspect he just thinks it's cool.
I get your point on the actions-taken-in-my name thing. But I'm thiking more internationally. If an American warplane intentionally dropped a bomb into a crowded market and killed 150 people, there'd be an international uproar. But just a couple of weeks ago, a car bomb exploded in a Baghdad market killing about that many. Where's the international outcry over that?
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1) Is America's military bad as such?
NO
2) Is America's military presence in other parts of the world bad as such?
DEPENDS WHY WE'RE THERE
3) What do you mean by "rank ignorance"?
DEPENDENCE ON AMERICAN NETWORK TV FOR NEWS
4) What are the "good things"?
THE DESIRE FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE; THE KINDNESS OF STRANGERS; THE PIONEER SPIRIT; THE MELTING POT OF DIVERSITY OUR COUNTRY GAINS STRENGTH FROM; APPLE PIE
My answers Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
4) What are the "good things"?
THE DESIRE FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE; THE KINDNESS OF STRANGERS; THE PIONEER SPIRIT; THE MELTING POT OF DIVERSITY OUR COUNTRY GAINS STRENGTH FROM; APPLE PIE
Don't forget comic books!
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1) Is America's military bad as such?
NO. Our military is like most other developed-nation militaries, and better than most worldwide. On the average we don't rape, plunder or sack. I don't like the way "militaries" function or the uses to which they're put, but that's a general problem and not specific to us.
2) Is America's military presence in other parts of the world bad as such?
YES, for the most part. We have no good reason to be in so many places in the world.
3) What do you mean by "rank ignorance"? Most Americans are extremely insular about other places and cultures. Looking at some of our recent discussions about guns, violent crime, mental illness, incarceration rates etc it becomes very clear that most Americans think that the whole world is pretty much like America except where it's worse.
4) What are the "good things"?
Our value of freedom. It may have gotten lost in the shuffle lately, but it changed history.
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Always look upstream.
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Quote:Foolishness.
Originally posted by Causal:
Yeah...one of the guy in my class proudly sports a "Support the Iraqi Resistance" banner on his MySpace page.
Quote:Again, that wasn't the UK or the US perpertrating it, it was peeps from within their own country (wasn't it? Work is keeping me busy- my current events knowledge is a little limited past couple weeks...).
But just a couple of weeks ago, a car bomb exploded in a Baghdad market killing about that many. Where's the international outcry over that?
oh, the pain Chrisisall
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Quote:No other country in the wold has the likes of Superman, Batman, Spider-man, the X-Men or the Fantastic Four! NOW YA GOT ME ALL PATRIOTIC!!!!!
Originally posted by Causal:
Don't forget comic books!
YEAH!!!!!
Who ya gonna call, Eiffel-Tower-Man?????
That French poof!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What ??
SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?
That's what happens when someone is totally incapable of believing that they are anything but a perfect, shining example of what everyone else should be.
Reminds me of the parents who insist their kid is a perfect little angel, even after said little angel has rolled another kid for their lunch money.
Remember that rant about how we've divided ourselves into camps along political/ideological lines and how we don't even listen to each other any more? Yeah. That's what we're doing here.
Maybe you are....
But I think, in this issue at least, that there is merit on both sides of the argument.I don't think America is evil, or as bad as a lot make it out to be.
But we have problems, and to say that those who have a issues with America do so strictly out of bigotry is just burying one's head in the sand. We've earned at least some of the animosity toward us.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
3) What do you mean by "rank ignorance"? Most Americans are extremely insular about other places and cultures. Looking at some of our recent discussions about guns, violent crime, mental illness, incarceration rates etc it becomes very clear that most Americans think that the whole world is pretty much like America except where it's worse.
We only have two neighbors, and one of those is nearly identical to us, culture-wise (though I think they might disagree on that score). So we're not really exposed to much difference of necessity. I think I would be more upset about our ignorance if the average American went out of his way to stay ignorant. But I don't think that's the case. I think it's the case that it's harder to get an international perspective in the U.S. than in, say, Switzerland, where you can be in any one of half a dozen different countries with no more effort than half a day's train ride. In the U.S. it takes some extraordinary effort to visit another country. Heck, it takes 2+ days just to drive across Texas, let alone to another country! We're like small-town dwellers. Maybe it's true that they've never been to an opera or an art museum. But to do so, they're going to have to make an extraordinary effort (unlike a New Yorker, who can just hop on the subway). That said, if you're going to try to talk about international issues, you'd better do your homework. (And just my two cents, but given that gun control in the US is a matter of the interpretation of the US constitution, I don't know how much international perspective is required.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Maybe you are....
I don't think America is evil, or as bad as a lot make it out to be.
But we have problems, and to say that those who have a issues with America do so strictly out of bigotry is just burying one's head in the sand. We've earned at least some of the animosity toward us.
I agree with you on the merit-on-both-sides thing. I think what upsets me is when people stroll into a thread and say things like, "That person is just a ________________, I'm not listening to him," or "Of course you'd say that, you're just a ____________." I see a lot of that, especially in the animosity between Geezer and Rue. He pushes her buttons, she insults him, and then it goes along like that for a while. And don't neither of them listen to the other, because they've already got each other pegged as morons. And I think that it's sad that we assign people into little ideological categories and then give ourselves permission to ignore them because they're a Republican/Bush-supporter/Liberal or what have you. That's a classic genetic fallacy, with a dash of ad hominem thrown in for good measure.
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"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you, and the author of the piece:
about the French (In their heart of hearts, many French people still believe that to be true.); about everyone not American (A pattern of willingness to condemn America for the tiniest indiscretion); about intellectuals, specifically of the French persuasion (The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does.) and even about the US (The US represents, I suppose, a set of ideas about human conduct which makes approval or disapproval of its behaviour much more important to Americans).
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"He pushes her buttons, she insults him"
Where have I insulted him? Is it an insult to point out to a person that their argument is fatally hobbled? Besides that, all I did was ask for the connection between the facts SignyM posted and Geezer's 'self-hate' repsonse. I'd consider all of this in the spirit of a debate.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you, and the author of the piece:
about the French (In their heart of hearts, many French people still believe that to be true.); about everyone not American (A pattern of willingness to condemn America for the tiniest indiscretion); about intellectuals, specifically of the French persuasion (The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does.) and even about the US (The US represents, I suppose, a set of ideas about human conduct which makes approval or disapproval of its behaviour much more important to Americans).
Not to get all overly philosophical on you, but it seems like the trouble is that one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing. The danger to that, of course, is that there will obviously always be people who don't fit the generalization. But if one doesn't engage in some degree of generalization, how can one ever talk about a large group?? It's a quandary.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
That's a classic genetic fallacy,
The transgenic in me is offended!
Oh, uh, did you mean 'generic'?
Never mind.
Dark Chrisisall
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Quote:Irish peeps fight a lot, drink a lot of beer or ale, and like potatoes. The steroetype is true, and holds FOR ALL OF THEM MICKS!!!!
Originally posted by Causal:
one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing.
I should know.
Irish Chrisisall
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http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html
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Quote:Well, colour me educated!
Originally posted by Causal:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html
Transgeneric Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
What ??
SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?
SignyM quotes factoids, which have no meaning in and of themselves, but are meant to lead one to believe that the US is all about military takeovers, manipulation of the world economy, and our complete control of the UN.
We spend a lot of money on high-tech weaponry to reduce our own casualties and reduce civilian casualties when we're fighting people who don't care about, and in recent cases actively cause, civilian casualties.
Most overseas military bases are in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. I don't remember us taking any of them over since we gave Germany and Japan back to the Germans and Japanese after WWII. Sure would make a BMW cheaper.
We're good at making money. What can I say?
The UN doing anything about Darfur yet despite our urging?
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Not the US, the PNAC; please pay attention. Big business/old money, represented by particular administrations. (Shadow Government, if you go for those labels)
Originally posted by Geezer:
SignyM quotes factoids, which have no meaning in and of themselves, but are meant to lead one to believe that the US is all about military takeovers, manipulation of the world economy, and our complete control of the UN.
Laying it out Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you
Not me. I note that the US has a "multitude of backgrounds and beliefs", which is about as far from your "...Americans, ugly and hateful..." as you can get.
Quote:
, and the author of the piece:
Oh. He did it so you can too. He at least used qualifiers, "...many French people...", or singled out groups "intellectuals" within the population as a whole.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Not the US, the PNAC; please pay attention. Big business/old money, represented by particular administrations. (Shadow Government, if you go for those labels)
Laying it out Chrisisall
Call for PirateNews. PirateNews, please pick up any house phone.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Drifting off-topic here.
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you
Not me. I note that the US has a "multitude of backgrounds and beliefs", which is about as far from your "...Americans, ugly and hateful..." as you can get.Quote:
, and the author of the piece:
Oh. He did it so you can too. He at least used qualifiers, "...many French people...", or singled out groups "intellectuals" within the population as a whole.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Not to get all overly philosophical on you, but it seems like the trouble is that one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing. The danger to that, of course, is that there will obviously always be people who don't fit the generalization. But if one doesn't engage in some degree of generalization, how can one ever talk about a large group?? It's a quandary.
I agree, but calling the entire population of a country "ugly and hateful" reaches beyond just discussion and into prejudice. If I were to say that all members of a certain ethnic group were "shiftless and lazy" I'd get criticized, and rightly so. "Ugly and hateful" or "shiftless and lazy" are not the comments you use, to quote Rue, "in the spirit of a debate". They're what you use in rants and hate speech.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Not to get all overly philosophical on you, but it seems like the trouble is that one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing. The danger to that, of course, is that there will obviously always be people who don't fit the generalization. But if one doesn't engage in some degree of generalization, how can one ever talk about a large group?? It's a quandary.
I agree, but calling the entire population of a country "ugly and hateful" reaches beyond just discussion and into prejudice. If I were to say that all members of a certain ethnic group were "shiftless and lazy" I'd get criticized, and rightly so. "Ugly and hateful" or "shiftless and lazy" are not the comments you use, to quote Rue, "in the spirit of a debate". They're what you use in rants and hate speech.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
Well, yes, some terms of generalization are more offensive than others. "Ugly and hateful" would go on that list, I think. I don't think of myself as "ugly and hateful" (though I'm sure some enterprising soul could find a comment from another thread that, when taken out of context, would make me seem ugly and hateful).
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Irish peeps fight a lot, drink a lot of beer or ale, and like potatoes. The steroetype is true, and holds FOR ALL OF THEM MICKS!!!!
Originally posted by Causal:
one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing.
I should know.
Irish Chrisisall
Except I'm an actual and whole Irish person born, raised and currently living in Ireland who hates potatoes. And who is also a non-fighting hippie unless she is really pressed. And doesn't drink very much either. Sorry Chris!
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Just a short note before getting back on topic: 'ugly' was in quotes and referred to "The Ugly American", probably a sideways reference and too far back in time for most people here, hateful was in the spirit of that book.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Except I'm an actual and whole Irish person born, raised and currently living in Ireland who hates potatoes. And who is also a non-fighting hippie unless she is really pressed. And doesn't drink very much either. Sorry Chris!
The Irish are also known to be consumate liars. I should know, being either 1/2 or 1/4, depending on which relative I ask...unless they're lying too.
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Quote:So you're Irish in name only, then?
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Except I'm an actual and whole Irish person born, raised and currently living in Ireland who hates potatoes. And who is also a non-fighting hippie unless she is really pressed. And doesn't drink very much either.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Not the US, the PNAC; please pay attention. Big business/old money, represented by particular administrations. (Shadow Government, if you go for those labels)
Laying it out Chrisisall
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You forgot the rest. When someone brings up the PNAC you're supposed to close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears and chant "La,la,la, I can't hear you" over and over again!
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Quote:Just being a dullard on purpose, DTH!
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Sorry Chris!
Silly Chrisisall
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Quote:And your point is...umm, what? There IS no PNAC? They're far from hidden, Geezer.
Originally posted by Geezer:
Call for PirateNews. PirateNews, please pick up any house phone.
Oh, are you being a dullard NOT ON PURPOSE?
My bad Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just a short note before getting back on topic: 'ugly' was in quotes and referred to "The Ugly American", probably a sideways reference and too far back in time for most people here, hateful was in the spirit of that book.
Good. So Americans aren't 'ugly' and hateful, by choice.
Now let's work on "But not just ordinariness - ignorance and small mindedness. Americans foster that, celebrate that, memorialize that." I don't get the literary reference in that one.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
[BAnd your point is...umm, what? There IS no PNAC? They're far from hidden, Geezer.
So are the Masons, and so is Bohemian Grove, and several other things which have quite inflated impact on the world in PN's view. Just wondered if he had a conspirancy theory handy for the PNAC.
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"SignyM quotes factoids, which ... are meant to lead one to believe that the US is all about military takeovers" etc
See, I didn't read that into the posting. It pretty straightforwardly explains why the US gets so much focus. Lots of military spending, lots of troops and bases, lots of economic and political leverage exerted all over the world for all to see ... no wonder people notice.
"We spend a lot of money on high-tech weaponry to reduce our own casualties and reduce civilian casualties when we're fighting people who don't care about, and in recent cases actively cause, civilian casualties."
You reason like a salesman - if you spend you're really saving. But the savings you're talking about doesn't play well to the world. "You ought to be grateful it's only 2/3 million mostly women and children killed ..." Meanwhile the rest of the world is thinking "it should have been zero." They're reasoning normally.
"Most overseas military bases are in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. I don't remember us taking any of them over since we gave Germany and Japan back to the Germans and Japanese after WWII. Sure would make a BMW cheaper."
As to the first part of your sentence, the US has bases in so many places they do get widespread global attention.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2003/basestructure2003.pdf
From the report, there are bases in: Antarctica, Antigua and Barbuda, Australia, Austria, Bahamas Islands, Bahrain, Belgium, British Indian Ocean Terr, Canada, Colombia, Cuba, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, Greenland, Honduras, Iceland, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Kenya, Kwajalein Atoll, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway. Oman, Peru, Portugal, Saint Helena, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom and Venezuela.
Not listed are bases in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Qatar, and Uzbekistan.
The second part I'm guessing is an argument that since the bases have been there for so long they shouldn't count? How does that make sense?
"The UN doing anything about Darfur yet despite our urging?"
Does Sudan still enjoy "normal trade relations" status with the US?
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"Good. So Americans aren't 'ugly' and hateful, by choice." No, they're ignorant, overbearing AND self-righteous.
I can't believe you haven't read the book and don't know to what I was refering. But since I have to be explicit ...
The point of the book was that Americans tend to be more myopic about cultural norms and less knowledgeable about the rest of the world.
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Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
I'm not sure if I would say that is is sad but it is certainly true that most of America still does'nt realise just how much their nation is vilified by people in supposedly "friendly" countries all over the world.
I live in a relitively small seaside-town on the east coast of England that happens to have a large foriegn -language school in it and almost all of the students that i host in my home from all over the world declare a dislike and even hatred of the USA. Most of them see you as war-mongering arogants who are out to bleed the world white.
So, how are you going to prove them wrong?
For myself, I only have to read some of the threads on this board to cause me to heave a sigh of resignation at your country's innevitable future.
I was going to respond to this earlier, but someone rudely expected me to actually work for my paycheck.
Now, I am not the "average American" I have spent as many years in Europe and other countries as I have in the US. I have lived and or traveled extensively (and by that I mean staying in a place a minimum of a month) in Ethiopia, Panama, Greece, Italy, England, Turkey, France, Germany, Spain, Holland and Canada. I have always been met with friendliness everywere I have gone. In my experience there was no wholesale hating of all things American or America. In most cases the America bashing I found was from the media. For instance the media in the UK seems to be preoccupied with bashing America to the point that after 7 years of living there it started to sound like a school yard bully picking on the kid he is most jealous of.
America is not perfect, but then neither is any other country.
I personally stay away from anywhere American tourists go, because there are a few of the Jerry Springer army that somehow get overseas - but then I tend to stay away from German tourist too.
Point is, the UK has just as many Jerry Springer batallions as the US.
As for the students at the "large foriegn -language school" ask those students how many of them would like to EMIGRATE to America. I venture to say quite a few.
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Forgive me if I missed anything, pressed for time and had to skim this thread.
I think a large part of it is that the rest of the world KNOWS we are capable of better, and therefore holds us to that standard.
And becomes annoyed as hell when we don't bother to hold ourselves to it.
Just a thought.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Except I'm an actual and whole Irish person born, raised and currently living in Ireland who hates potatoes. And who is also a non-fighting hippie unless she is really pressed. And doesn't drink very much either. Sorry Chris!
The Irish are also known to be consumate liars.
Like the Americans are known to be ugly and hateful?
Okay, with nothing but love for the posters here and a huge amount of generalisation and in no particular order, here are some of the issues I have with the US as a whole:
You consider yourselves to be more important than the rest of the world. You don't even realise that you do, but you do. If it's in the best interests of America, then it's in the best interests of the world in general. You just don't seem to grasp that different cultures and countries work in different ways.
With this attitude you have, for decades, interfered in the affairs of other nations, often with disastrous consequences, because you wanted to make things "safer" for the
You consider yourselves to be the champion of democracy and the leader of the "free world". In reality you actively support monarchies and dictatorships when it's in your interest to do so, label any American citizen who criticises your government as "unpatriotic" and demand that they "leave the country if they hate it so much." You'll champion free speech to support bigots and racists, but ruthlessly silence anyone who tries to honestly evaluate your country's laws, foreign policies and general attitude. To the point that your media weakens and waters down any criticism to the point of non-existence. Why do you fear criticising your leaders so much? Our politicians get roasted almost weekly and we've managed not to erupt into civil war and/or general chaos. Lately anyway.
I also think it's pretty crappy that anyone who doesn't agree with the Iraq war has to make a song and dance about supporting the troops. Disagreeing with a war is NOT a personal attack on the men and women who dedicate themselves to protecting your country.
Invading Iraq had nothing to do with protecting your country. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. You've wasted thousands of lives and won't admit you made a terrible mistake.
You assume that anyone who disagrees with you, argues with your policies or suggests that *gasp* your approach may not be correct hates America, hates freedom and is a coward. The whole anti-France thing made me sick to my stomach - and once again proved that your ideas on democracy are the weirdest I've ever come across. You're fighting for democracy and freedom but vilify a country that genuinely believes you're making a mistake and exercises it's democratic right to vote against you???
I also despise the fact that you've labelled the French as cowards. Why? Because they were invaded by the Nazi's in World War II? Do you know what the French people went through back then? The sacrifices those in the French resistance made? The horrors they faced on a daily basis?
Nothing seems to be important unless it happens in your country, or effects your country in some way. You think that the world changed when 9/11 happened. It didn't. It just landed on your doorstep. And I can appreciate how it's a horrific tragedy for your people and how you will never forget the events of that day, but it is nowhere near the biggest tragedy the world has ever faced. More than 2,000 people died that day. More than 500,000 people died in Rwanda in 1994. A *lot* more than 2,000 are dying right now in Darfur.
Your military is huge, aggressive as hell, everywhere it shouldn't be and nowhere it should be.
You have absolutely no separation of Church and State. Most of your country is up in arms (literally!) at the very thought. You froth at the mouth at ideas like secular government, free health care and social welfare and conveniently forget that many progressive, democratic countr
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you, and the author of the piece:
about the French (In their heart of hearts, many French people still believe that to be true.); about everyone not American (A pattern of willingness to condemn America for the tiniest indiscretion); about intellectuals, specifically of the French persuasion (The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does.) and even about the US (The US represents, I suppose, a set of ideas about human conduct which makes approval or disapproval of its behaviour much more important to Americans).
Not to get all overly philosophical on you, but it seems like the trouble is that one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing. The danger to that, of course, is that there will obviously always be people who don't fit the generalization. But if one doesn't engage in some degree of generalization, how can one ever talk about a large group?? It's a quandary.
"All generalizations are false, including this one."
Quote:
(Everything DTH posted)
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I think a large part of it is that the rest of the world KNOWS we are capable of better, and therefore holds us to that standard.
And becomes annoyed as hell when we don't bother to hold ourselves to it.
Just a thought.
I know that's one of the main reasons why I don't like America. The first, of course, is Americans (flag-waving, song-singing, "I love my damn country" Americans, not the people who were born and/or live here).
---
"If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
Okay, with nothing but love for the posters here and a huge amount of generalisation and in no particular order, here are some of the issues I have with the US as a whole:
You consider yourselves to be more important than the rest of the world. You don't even realise that you do, but you do. If it's in the best interests of America, then it's in the best interests of the world in general. You just don't seem to grasp that different cultures and countries work in different ways.
No disagreement here, I see this all the time but I think the problem is much more pronounced on the conservative side of the spectrum.
Quote:
With this attitude you have, for decades, interfered in the affairs of other nations, often with disastrous consequences, because you wanted to make things "safer" for theyou"The Free World."
Which is retarded, we didn't learn from Vietnam, we didn't learn from Somalia, we need to just let the rest of the world work out their own damn problems.
Quote:
You consider yourselves to be the champion of democracy and the leader of the "free world". In reality you actively support monarchies and...snipped because I don't want my post to be too long...to erupt into civil war and/or general chaos. Lately anyway.
This is one of the dumbest things IMO in modern U.S. society, the entire basis of democracy is to question our leaders and hold them accountable yet when one of them screws up as badly as Bush has been doing there is still a chorus of "If you don't like the president then you are un-American".
Quote:
I also think it's pretty crappy that anyone who doesn't agree with the Iraq war has to make a song and dance about supporting the troops. Disagreeing with a war is NOT a personal attack on the men and women who dedicate themselves to protecting your country.
Well we had a big problem in Vietnam with this, people treated the troops (many of whom were conscripted) very poorly because they didn't like the war. It was a shameful thing to do and no one wants to be connected with that again.
Quote:
Invading Iraq had nothing to do with protecting your country. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. You've wasted thousands of lives and won't admit you made a terrible mistake.
About half of us will.
Quote:
The whole anti-France thing made me sick to my stomach - and once again proved that your ideas on democracy are the weirdest I've ever come across. You're fighting for democracy and freedom but vilify a country that genuinely believes you're making a mistake and exercises it's democratic right to vote against you???
I think it's OK to be a little pissed about that but we took it way too far ("freedom fries", give me a break).
Quote:
I also despise the fact that you've labelled the French as cowards. Why? Because they were invaded by the Nazi's in World War II? Do you know what the French people went through back then? The sacrifices those in the French resistance made? The horrors they faced on a daily basis?
Because they have lost every war since Napoleon, it is insensitive and really pointless but it is true that they have done horribly in protecting their country for a very long time.
Quote:
Nothing seems to be important unless it happens in your country, or effects your country in some way. You think that the world changed when 9/11 happened. It didn't. It just landed on your doorstep.
Right
Quote:
And I can appreciate how it's a horrific tragedy for your people and how you will never forget the events of that day, but it is nowhere near the biggest tragedy the world has ever faced.
It was the biggest terror attack ever.
Quote:
More than 2,000 people died that day. More than 500,000 people died in Rwanda in 1994. A *lot* more than 2,000 are dying right now in Darfur.
Right but those are spread out over months and huge geographical areas, I'm not trying to say that they aren't important just that the impact is lessened wh
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
You think "liberal" is an insult. I will *never* understand that.
I think I'm going to have to disagree on this point. As far as I can tell, the country's pretty evenly split along liberal/conservative lines, so there are one hell of a lot of Americans who think "liberal" is a very good thing indeed.
And wrt the rant, I hope you don't think that's the case for every American. Because I could just as easily rant about the attitudes of Europeans and no doubt offend you gravely.
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Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
"All generalizations are false, including this one."
Ah, self-reference. The bane of first-year philosophy students.
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The most radical anti-American is George W Bush, who signed the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America contract, to overthrow USA by merger with Mexico and Canada, a member of the 53-nation British Commonwealth owned by the Queen of the British Empire (Bush's 19th cousin).
www.spp.gov
Bush has already murdered over 30,000 US citizens since 9/11/2001, by allowing 40-million illegal aliens to run amok in USA, including the V Tech school shooter, who probably would never get a visa under the former rules, before wide-open borders and unlimited immigration.
www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103
Plus Bush perped the 9/11 Massacres and Iraq War #3, that murdered 100,000 US troops and bankrupted USA. ARREST THE BUSH GANG NOW!
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
The whole anti-France thing made me sick to my stomach...
But the whole anti-American thing is just fine.
Wait, what's that? Oh, yeah, I think that was Webb's point. Interesting how that topic got lost about ten posts in...
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On a related topic: I find it very interesting--and correct me if I'm wrong, far-flung foreign browncoats--that Americans are the only folks on earth calling other American's un-American. Nobody's getting on British tv and calling other englishmen "un-British." No frenchman would dream of calling another frenchman un-French. In other countries, as I understand it, there's a basic sense of solidarity. But we American's accuse our fellow Americans of hating America at the drop of a hat. What is it in our national character that makes us so willing to divide our nation into "real" and "false" Americans? Perhaps if we can deal with so-called anti-Americanism at home, the perspective of the rest of the world would become clear.
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:Quote:
I also despise the fact that you've labelled the French as cowards. Why? Because they were invaded by the Nazi's in World War II? Do you know what the French people went through back then? The sacrifices those in the French resistance made? The horrors they faced on a daily basis?
Because they have lost every war since Napoleon, it is insensitive and really pointless but it is true that they have done horribly in protecting their country for a very long time.
Actually, they did pretty well in World War I, initially. They checked the German advance (actually backed them up a bit, too), and beat them in the "race to the sea" thus preventing an end-run around French positions. Of course, then the Germans dug trenches, to which the French and British responded by digging their own trenches. From that point in, everyone lost the war.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
You have absolutely no separation of Church and State. Most of your country is up in arms (literally!) at the very thought.
Odd, since it's written into the consitution. I'd be interested to hear what led you to this conclusion, other than the carricature of the U.S. you get from your news sources. Right, because we must all be theocratic lunatics. That's about as accurate (and nearly as offensive) as saying all Brits have bad teeth.
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
...the majority of the people who have these undesirable traits are the conservatives, the conservatives who believe that the U.S. can do no wrong, who believe that the Bible should be the law of the land, who believe that the rest of the world should bow before our greatness and bend to our whims.
Ah, the legacy of the two-party system. This is why we get nothing done in these discussions.
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Quote:The fact that we spend more $$ on the military than the rest of the world combined and have over 800 military installations around the world means nothing "by itself"? How can those fact possibly be meaningless? They're so consequential that I can't imagine a context that would make them disapear, especially from being considered by the rest of the world. Imagine you're a nation, ANY nation, and you have an American military installation or two in your borders. How would that enter your thought process? Or put it another way, imagine that we have several Chinese, Japanese, or Russian military installations within our borders. Under what circumstances would you consider that "meaningless"? It's that kind of thinking that prolly drives ppl nutters.
SignyM quotes factoids, which have no meaning in and of themselves, but are meant to lead one to believe that the US is all about military takeovers.... We spend a lot of money on high-tech weaponry to reduce our own casualties and reduce civilian casualties when we're fighting people who don't care about, and in recent cases actively cause, civilian casualties.
Then, in context...
I just saw an interesting movie, called Trinity and Beyond which describes in detail our pursuit of unassailable atomic superiority, and the 330+ tests we conducted - often using soldiers (and sometimes civilians) - to achieve it. The point is not that we tested more weapons or tested them under egregious circumstances, but that it is documented that we were looking for absolute supremacy. And don't forget that so far, we are the only nation to have used WMD on a civilian population, not once but twice.
Quote:We really had no interest whatsoever in the Banana Republics (hence the totally meaningless name
manipulation of the world economy...
), the Panama Canal, the price of oil, the stability of the dollar, or saving various nations from "communism" Quote:I didn't say we HAVE control, but even now we have veto power through our membership in the Security Council. We may not be able to make the UN do what we want, but we can prevent them from doing what we don't want.
and our complete control of the UN
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.
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As an "American" living in Canada, which someone here referred to as being similar in culture (and they would be right, but don't mention that to any Canadians...they don't like that 
)I've found myself in some heated conversations. Usually because some, and I can say this, stupid American did something stupid (in example, one conversation was over a gated community asking for one person to remove their Christmas wreath, that was in the shape of a peace sign, because they thought it was anti-war and, so, disrespectful to the troops) In my friends eyes, the Canadians eyes, it was an "American" thing. I had to remind him that gated communities happen here too, in Canada, and that with over 300 million people living in the States and 30 million living in Canada you're just bound to have more stupid 'People' scenarios happening in the States. It's just the odds are in that favor. Just after that conversation a man in Vancouver had to take down his Santa, while living in a gated community, because he'd placed a crown of thorns on it's head.
And, also, like someone said here. America's a huge country, separated by water and another country (The Pacific Ocean between Hawaii & Canada between Alaska) And, to be honest, it still hasn't formed into a cohesive whole yet. Gay marriage is legal here, but not there. One school in the south had their very first non-segregated prom the other day. There's many of these issues and they differ wildly, dependent on where you are. So different parts of America are at odds with each other, let alone the rest of the world. A person from New York is, most likely, going to be a different person than one from Okefenokee, Georgia. (But, there, I'm making a generalization. Cultured and open minded people live everywhere, there's just more of them in certain areas)
I was sitting in a rec room at a hostel in Ireland when the first bombs started falling on Iraq, a few years ago, and people, from all over the world were sitting with me. And not one of them made the generalizations to hate me, or, as they say, hate on me, because I was American. They understood that I didn't make policy for my country. And they also understood how divided my nation was. That America was, and still is, at a crossroads.
I'm hoping, with the new election coming up, we make the right choices. Because that seems to be where the major faults lie. Our foreign policy. And, to be honest, I'm not sure how we can fix that. You vote one person out, but the next one seems to play the same game. Though, and not to make this political, I don't remember Clinton inspiring such animosity, over seas, that Bush seems to garner.
Anyway, long rant, I'm sorry, but I've been a lurker here, posted a few things, a long time ago, but this issue just bugs me. As soon as the world sees we're all just people, and by all, I mean the world over, subject to the happenings of our governments, things might get better.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
On a related topic: I find it very interesting--and correct me if I'm wrong, far-flung foreign browncoats--that Americans are the only folks on earth calling other American's un-American. Nobody's getting on British tv and calling other englishmen "un-British." No frenchman would dream of calling another frenchman un-French. In other countries, as I understand it, there's a basic sense of solidarity. But we American's accuse our fellow Americans of hating America at the drop of a hat. What is it in our national character that makes us so willing to divide our nation into "real" and "false" Americans? Perhaps if we can deal with so-called anti-Americanism at home, the perspective of the rest of the world would become clear.
If we could get ourselves out from under the domination of the two-party system, it'd go a long way. Heck fire, it's as much as been said in this thread that the only bad Americans are the conservative Republicans. That kind of divisive thinking is what lets the politicians (who are all of them crooks) stay in power, in spite of the fact that they don't really have our best interest in mind. Somewhat akin to the British empire's "divide and rule" strategy.
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The only nation to use an atomic weapon yes, the only nation to use a WMD no. By our current definition the British, French and Germans did in WW1, and Iraq did more recently.
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Causal,
Some people call that type of person FredG was talking about Bush's 'base'. It's not like they don't exist. If anything, they have elements even crazier than that. So, yes, there is a part of politics that does resemble what FredG was describing, and yes, they are ultra-conservative, AND - they even vote republican ! Imagine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
[B...the majority of the people who have these undesirable traits are the conservatives, the conservatives who believe that the U.S. can do no wrong, who believe that the Bible should be the law of the land, who believe that the rest of the world should bow before our greatness and bend to our whims.
Incidentally, I'm mostly socially conservative, and i don't believe any of the above. I think you're painting with too broad a brush. The same sort of carricature of social liberals could be offered and it would be no more realistic.
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Causal,
And yet, there is a 'base' Bush panders to, even he apparently thinks they share those characterstics (on the whole).
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Causal,
Some people call that type of person FredG was talking about Bush's 'base'. It's not like they don't exist. If anything, they have elements even crazier than that. So, yes, there is a part of politics that does resemble what FredG was describing, and yes, they are ultra-conservative, AND - they even vote republican ! Imagine.
But to be fair, it isn't as though the Democratic party or the liberal ideologues don't have their lunatic fringe as well. I doubt the people who fire bomb SUVs voted for Bush. I would imagine they'd be more of the Democratic bent. And I think the rabid environmentalists (mind you, the real nutters) are every bit as whacky in their own way as the some of the more extreme conservatives. My issue comes in when we make the kinds of moves in our thinking such that conservative=bad or democrat=bad, unequivocally and with no room for compromise. People criticize Bush for seeing things in to black-and-white a way, and I think they're right. But it's no less simplistic to say, "Conservatives are responsible for all the evil in America, and Democrats are all righteous paragons of peace, liberty, and justice." That can't be right, either.
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Quote:I know that the British, French and Germans used mustard gas and chlorine on WWI troops, I wasn't aware that they used it on civilians. But you're right, Iraq used WMD on civilians. So we share the history books with Iraq, only we were more effective. I'm not sure that puts us in good compmany, and I'm sure it enters others' thinking about how many we're willing to sacrifice.
The only nation to use an atomic weapon yes, the only nation to use a WMD no. By our current definition the British, French and Germans did in WW1, and Iraq did more recently.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Causal,
And yet, there is a 'base' Bush panders to, even he apparently thinks they share those characterstics (on the whole).
OK, this is the second time you've posted this, and the second time that you haven't just come right out and made your point. Are there conservatives who are ideologically extreme? You betcha. But the same is true of the left: there are extreme-left liberal ideologues who are not the norm for their party. I fail to see how the fact that some people on the right are extreme in their view would validate something like the statement that America's bad reputation is fully and wholly the fault of America's conservatives. I consider myself socially conservative, and abhor the Bush administration. But oh yes, everything's my fault: I'm a social conservative.
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And I wanted to address the 'categorization' thing. Because categories are arrived at through the human form of 'fuzzy logic' they are fuzzy. But without categories language would be impossible. The word 'bird' could never exist - each and every thing would have its own name. The issue is to make meaningful generalizations rather than throw out the whole notion of generalizing. So a 'bible-thumping conservative' category might include a bunch of war-hawks, a few rapturites, a portion of homophobes, and so on. It doesn't mean everyone matches on every descriptor.
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Oh hi Causal,
I thought we were cross-posting so I wanted to make sure to get your response. That's why I posted twice.
"I fail to see how the fact that some people on the right are extreme in their view would validate something like the statement that America's bad reputation is fully and wholly the fault of America's conservatives."
Wellll .... Given that US conservatives have driven policy over the past 6 years, I think a lot of people rightly think that these policies can be laid at the feet of conservatives.
If you don't like being in that category (the kind of category Bush courted), perhaps you, and like-minded people, need to carve out a separate identity to distinguish yourselves from the politicos who have given conservatives such a bad name over that last few years.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
I consider myself socially conservative, and abhor the Bush administration.
That's the thing, it's not about liberals or conservatives. There's plenty of virtue in both camps (at least as far as voters go), but those who lust for power only use those ideologies as a means to an end. The neo-cons hoodwinked conservatives, through fear and sleight of hand, into supporting their grandiose plans. To be fair, they fooled the liberals just as effectively, basically cowing them into submission from 9/11 on. Only recently have a few of them begun to re-grow their nerve.
The fact that more and more 'real' conservatives are coming out against Bush is promising. Maybe soon we'll wake up from this national nightmare.
SergeantX
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And I wanted to address the 'categorization' thing. Because categories are arrived at through the human form of 'fuzzy logic' they are fuzzy. But without categories language would be impossible. The word 'bird' could never exist - each and every thing would have its own name. The issue is to make meaningful generalizations rather than throw out the whole notion of generalizing. So a 'bible-thumping conservative' category might include a bunch of war-hawks, a few rapturites, a portion of homophobes, and so on. It doesn't mean everyone matches on every descriptor.
Huh. I think you should take some philosophy courses! That's pretty good thinking.
The trouble I have, I guess, is that "conservative" as a generic descriptor covers roughly half of America. Then there are the various sorts of extreme-right conservatives who advocate the creation of religious government and so forth. But often the term "conservative" is used to cover both. So I get lumped into the conversion-by-the-sword, kill-'em-all conservatives and just don't want to be in that category at all.
By the by, Bush may claim to be conservative. But he doesn't act like one. He's increased government, increased spending (even deficit spent) engaged in military adventurism (to the point of initiating unprovoked agressive wars). Those aren't part of the type of social conservatism that I'm familiar with. I think something popped lose in his brain after 9/11. I'm just embarassed to be in the same ideological category as him, because he doesn't represent us very well at all.
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Just my little (very little) political humor -
neo-cons - they put the con in conservative !
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
I consider myself socially conservative, and abhor the Bush administration.
That's the thing, it's not about liberals or conservatives. There's plenty of virtue in both camps (at least as far as voters go), but those who lust for power only use those ideologies as a means to an end.
Thanks for saying, in an extremely concise fashion, what I've been trying to say this whole time. Socially liberal, socially conservative, there's really not a ton of difference between us. There are some ideological differences which are exploited by the politicos as a means of gaining power. There are really only a few issues that I truly and deeply disagree with when it comes to political ideology. But the political parties capitalize those differences, inflate them to epic proportion, and ride them straight into power. To my way of thinking it's not the liberals or conservatives who are dangerous, it's the ones who'll exploit ideological differences by turning one half of the country against the other half just to insure another few years of personal power. Frightening when you stop and think about it.
Quote:
The neo-cons hoodwinked conservatives, through fear and sleight of hand, into supporting their grandiose plans.
They did at that. I sure bought into it. Remember when George W. promised to be a uniter, not a divider. Pffft. That happened. Most divisive president I can remember.
Quote:
To be fair, they fooled the liberals just as effectively, basically cowing them into submission from 9/11 on. Only recently have a few of them begun to re-grow their nerve.
I used to get mad about the timetable provisions in the war funding bill, thinking it was just shameless politicization of the war. But then I realized that that is what the congress is supposed to do: make laws on behalf of the people. And most people think we should get the hell out of Iraq. Of course, there's no real way to win this war, as far as I can tell (and believe me, as a veteran of the war, no one is more unhappy about that than me--it feels like a personal failure), so I can see at least some merit in the let's-just-get-the-hell-out-of-there argument. On the other hand, of course, we'd be leaving behind basically the same sort of milieu that Al Qaida emerged from, which is not a comforting thought.
Quote:
The fact that more and more 'real' conservatives are coming out against Bush is promising. Maybe soon we'll wake up from this national nightmare.
Amen.
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Even though it's a little off-topic, I did want to comment on the two-party system. I still think it's because you can't vote the government out during its term.
But given that it is mostly a two-party system, you can't jettison the extremes b/c they, in effect, define the party. So if you are to take middle of the road environmentalism to its extreme you'd have the span of the democratic party. If you are to take middle of the road pro-business profit-seeking to its extreme you'd have the span of the repubican party. The extremes do buttress the moderate stance and can't be hived-off.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"SignyM quotes factoids, which ... are meant to lead one to believe that the US is all about military takeovers" etc
See, I didn't read that into the posting. It pretty straightforwardly explains why the US gets so much focus. Lots of military spending, lots of troops and bases, lots of economic and political leverage exerted all over the world for all to see ... no wonder people notice.
Rue. "Notice" isn't the thread. Anti-Americanism is. SignyM notes these factoids as "...facts about America that make it very likely that we WILL be hated." Not noticed. Hated. Despite your earlier obfuscation, it's pretty obvious that you do actually consider Americans ugly and hateful, and that the US, "...has an essentially sociopathic economy/culture." Quit trying to act like you don't. You have an irrational prejudice against Americans. If you used the language you use to describe Americans in reference to an ethnic or social minority, you'd be labeled a bigot.
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Quote:
Originally posted by clarkent913:
As an "American" living in Canada, which someone here referred to as being similar in culture (and they would be right, but don't mention that to any Canadians...they don't like that
And, also, like someone said here. America's a huge country, separated by water and another country (The Pacific Ocean between Hawaii & Canada between Alaska) And, to be honest, it still hasn't formed into a cohesive whole yet. Gay marriage is legal here, but not there. One school in the south had their very first non-segregated prom the other day. There's many of these issues and they differ wildly, dependent on where you are. So different parts of America are at odds with each other, let alone the rest of the world. A person from New York is, most likely, going to be a different person than one from Okefenokee, Georgia. (But, there, I'm making a generalization. Cultured and open minded people live everywhere, there's just more of them in certain areas)
I was sitting in a rec room at a hostel in Ireland when the first bombs started falling on Iraq, a few years ago, and people, from all over the world were sitting with me. And not one of them made the generalizations to hate me, or, as they say, hate on me, because I was American. They understood that I didn't make policy for my country. And they also understood how divided my nation was. That America was, and still is, at a crossroads.
I'm hoping, with the new election coming up, we make the right choices. Because that seems to be where the major faults lie. Our foreign policy. And, to be honest, I'm not sure how we can fix that. You vote one person out, but the next one seems to play the same game. Though, and not to make this political, I don't remember Clinton inspiring such animosity, over seas, that Bush seems to garner.
Anyway, long rant, I'm sorry, but I've been a lurker here, posted a few things, a long time ago, but this issue just bugs me. As soon as the world sees we're all just people, and by all, I mean the world over, subject to the happenings of our governments, things might get better.
well said, well said!
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But given that it is mostly a two-party system, you can't jettison the extremes b/c they, in effect, define the party. So if you are to take middle of the road environmentalism to its extreme you'd have the span of the democratic party. If you are to take middle of the road pro-business profit-seeking to its extreme you'd have the span of the repubican party. The extremes do buttress the moderate stance and can't be hived-off.
I think that this may have to do with the fact that it's the extremes that are most bent on using the respective political parties to acheive their ideological ends. Maybe you could simplify the conservative ideology as something like "I want the governement to leave me alone as much as possible" and the liberal ideology as something like "I want the government to address social problems". If the political parties followed these, I think we'd go back to a pre-WWII era where Dems and Reps disagreed but didn't hate each other. But because the extremes have so much riding on their party, they're the ones who give in massive quantities to campaign chests, and they're the ones who turn up to vote in caucuses and the like. So the parties swing progressively further apart, at the expense of the more centrist conservatives and liberals.
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Quote:
Originally posted by clarkent913:
I don't remember Clinton inspiring such animosity, over seas, that Bush seems to garner.
Nor do I. It may have something to do with starting an aggressive war against a country who did not attack us first. That's not just a betrayal of Bush's supposed conservative values; that's downright (gasp) un-American (in the sense of being contrary to what had hitherto been accepted as standard American values).
Interestingly, the criticism of America has mostly to do with the war in Iraq, not the one in Afghanistan. I've done some speculating as to the cause of that. I suspect that when push comes to shove, most would say that we were right in attacking Afghanistan after 9/11. The Taliban clearly had a connection to Al Qaida in general and bin Ladin in particular. But the same can't be said of Iraq. Although I disagree with the majority of the "Bush lied" arguments, I do agree that Bush wanted to go to war, and used every justification at his disposal to make that happen. And that's enough for me to want him the hell out of the Oval Office.
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Quote:No one said they're meaningless, just that they don't mean what you infer.
Originally posted by SignyM:
How can those fact possibly be meaningless?
Quote:
Or put it another way, imagine that we have several Chinese, Japanese, or Russian military installations within our borders. Under what circumstances would you consider that "meaningless"?
Again, never said meaningless. If we were allies with, say, the Republic of Russia, founded after the Democratic Revolution of 1925, and the Union of Western European and Canadian Socialist Republics was threatening to invade us, I wouldn't have a problem. You got any indication that foreign governments have asked us to leave and we haven't?
Quote:And if we'd had no nukes, the government that starved 35 million of its own people to death would have just decided to study war no more? Yeah, right.
Then, in context...
I just saw an interesting movie, called Trinity and Beyond which describes in detail our pursuit of unassailable atomic superiority, and the 330+ tests we conducted - often using soldiers (and sometimes civilians) - to achieve it. The point is not that we tested more weapons or tested them under egregious circumstances, but that it is documented that we were looking for absolute supremacy.
Quote:600,000 people were killed in Rwanda by machetes. Think they feel any less dead?
And don't forget that so far, we are the only nation to have used WMD on a civilian population, not once but twice.
Quote:We own the Panama Canal? We own the oil? Venezuela sells us $37 billion a year at their price. How much oil Have we gotten from Iraq since 2003?
the Panama Canal, the price of oil
Quote:The South Vietnamese soldiers I worked with wouldn't have minded being saved from "communism".
or saving various nations from "communism"
Quote:
I didn't say we HAVE control, but even now we have veto power through our membership in the Security Council. We may not be able to make the UN do what we want, but we can prevent them from doing what we don't want.
Almost all of the US vetoes in the past 20 years have related to Israel. Not that this is a great thing, but hardly preventing the UN from doing what we want. http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/veto/vetosubj.htm
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How is it that I read the thread and think I'm caught up, but when I get back to it posts have been inserted where I thought I already read? Not a complaint 'cause I thank Haken and friends MOST sincerely for making this site and keeping it going. And this little thing that I think I notice every now and again is no big deal.
But it's making me feel like I'm slipping in my younger old age. Does anyone else notice this? Or is it me just rushing through carelessly?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Maybe you could simplify the conservative ideology as something like "I want the governement to leave me alone as much as possible" and the liberal ideology as something like "I want the government to address social problems".
And what of those of us who want the government to leave us alone and instead address the social problems? I'm not poor, I got health insurance, I don't have a substance abuse problem, I'm not (dangerously) crazy, I don't commit crime, I don't engage in unprotected sex, I try to be environmentally responsible - I just want to be left alone to live my life. I do think that people who are poor, etc. should be helped by the government. I don't think the government should care who you have sex with (if it's safe), who you marry, what you worship (or not), how you keep from having babies, if you got guns in the basement(if you don't shoot folk with them for no good reason), etc.
So what kind of American am I?
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How is it that I read the thread and think I'm caught up, but when I get back to it posts have been inserted where I thought I already read? Not a complaint 'cause I thank Haken and friends MOST sincerely for making this site and keeping it going. And this little thing that I think I notice every now and again is no big deal.
But it's making me feel like I'm slipping in my younger old age. Does anyone else notice this? Or is it me just rushing through carelessly?
This thread is hopping right along, all right.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Geezer,
"Notice" isn't the thread" - and you apparently don't understand ironic understatement.
"you do actually consider Americans ugly and hateful" - just the ugly and hateful ones.
"the US, '...has an essentially sociopathic economy/culture.'" That argument has been made by sociologists, anthropologists and economists. I can't take credit for it.
"an irrational prejudice against Americans" I have some well-founded criticisms, while you seem to think ANY criticism is unjustified.
added: there was a funny article (funny in a ha ha ouch way) called something like "That Sociopath That You Work For". If I can find it I'll post it, since it illustrates some of my points.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:Quote:
Originally posted by clarkent913:
I don't remember Clinton inspiring such animosity, over seas, that Bush seems to garner.
Nor do I. It may have something to do with starting an aggressive war against a country who did not attack us first. That's not just a betrayal of Bush's supposed conservative values; that's downright (gasp) un-American (in the sense of being contrary to what had hitherto been accepted as standard American values).
Interestingly, the criticism of America has mostly to do with the war in Iraq, not the one in Afghanistan. I've done some speculating as to the cause of that. I suspect that when push comes to shove, most would say that we were right in attacking Afghanistan after 9/11. The Taliban clearly had a connection to Al Qaida in general and bin Ladin in particular. But the same can't be said of Iraq. Although I disagree with the majority of the "Bush lied" arguments, I do agree that Bush wanted to go to war, and used every justification at his disposal to make that happen. And that's enough for me to want him the hell out of the Oval Office.
I do remember Clinton getting a lot of grief over Milosovic. A similar scenario,tyrant, slaughtering people, etc. His motives were questioned then, like Bush's are now. There was even a movie about it "Wag the Dog". But, whatever the case, it didn't garner the American people animosity from the rest of the world. And he also got grief for bombing Iraq, as well, though there were no troops involved, we did drop some bombs. But, again, no animosity was given. Or even his early attempts at getting at al qaeda, in Africa, bombing, what appeared to be, schools and such. Still, nothing.
But, you're right. Afghanistan seems to drop out of view, when people demonstrate or just disagree with the war. And there's more than just Americans there, there's Canadians, British, Australians...on and on (The coalition of the willing, remember
) And it, too, seems to be a losing battle, the Taliban coming back, troops being killed, no end in sight.The truth is, America will pay for this, in the long run. For every family, in Iraq, or Afghanistan, that suffers a death, who knows how far that will reverberate into the future. If Bin Laden, in his reasoning for 9/11, referred to the Crusades, then where will this war take us?
Back on subject...
The thing is...If Americans think they're better than everyone else, and everyone else thinks they're better than Americans...is anyone really the better for it?
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