Exploring Anti-Americanism

POSTED BY: Khyron
UPDATED: Monday, April 30, 2007 03:01
VIEWED: 18266
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GEEZER

Friday, April 27, 2007 1:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

"SignyM quotes factoids, which ... are meant to lead one to believe that the US is all about military takeovers" etc

See, I didn't read that into the posting. It pretty straightforwardly explains why the US gets so much focus. Lots of military spending, lots of troops and bases, lots of economic and political leverage exerted all over the world for all to see ... no wonder people notice.

Rue. "Notice" isn't the thread. Anti-Americanism is. SignyM notes these factoids as "...facts about America that make it very likely that we WILL be hated." Not noticed. Hated. Despite your earlier obfuscation, it's pretty obvious that you do actually consider Americans ugly and hateful, and that the US, "...has an essentially sociopathic economy/culture." Quit trying to act like you don't. You have an irrational prejudice against Americans. If you used the language you use to describe Americans in reference to an ethnic or social minority, you'd be labeled a bigot.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by clarkent913:
As an "American" living in Canada, which someone here referred to as being similar in culture (and they would be right, but don't mention that to any Canadians...they don't like that )I've found myself in some heated conversations. Usually because some, and I can say this, stupid American did something stupid (in example, one conversation was over a gated community asking for one person to remove their Christmas wreath, that was in the shape of a peace sign, because they thought it was anti-war and, so, disrespectful to the troops) In my friends eyes, the Canadians eyes, it was an "American" thing. I had to remind him that gated communities happen here too, in Canada, and that with over 300 million people living in the States and 30 million living in Canada you're just bound to have more stupid 'People' scenarios happening in the States. It's just the odds are in that favor. Just after that conversation a man in Vancouver had to take down his Santa, while living in a gated community, because he'd placed a crown of thorns on it's head.

And, also, like someone said here. America's a huge country, separated by water and another country (The Pacific Ocean between Hawaii & Canada between Alaska) And, to be honest, it still hasn't formed into a cohesive whole yet. Gay marriage is legal here, but not there. One school in the south had their very first non-segregated prom the other day. There's many of these issues and they differ wildly, dependent on where you are. So different parts of America are at odds with each other, let alone the rest of the world. A person from New York is, most likely, going to be a different person than one from Okefenokee, Georgia. (But, there, I'm making a generalization. Cultured and open minded people live everywhere, there's just more of them in certain areas)

I was sitting in a rec room at a hostel in Ireland when the first bombs started falling on Iraq, a few years ago, and people, from all over the world were sitting with me. And not one of them made the generalizations to hate me, or, as they say, hate on me, because I was American. They understood that I didn't make policy for my country. And they also understood how divided my nation was. That America was, and still is, at a crossroads.

I'm hoping, with the new election coming up, we make the right choices. Because that seems to be where the major faults lie. Our foreign policy. And, to be honest, I'm not sure how we can fix that. You vote one person out, but the next one seems to play the same game. Though, and not to make this political, I don't remember Clinton inspiring such animosity, over seas, that Bush seems to garner.

Anyway, long rant, I'm sorry, but I've been a lurker here, posted a few things, a long time ago, but this issue just bugs me. As soon as the world sees we're all just people, and by all, I mean the world over, subject to the happenings of our governments, things might get better.

well said, well said!

---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

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FORSAKEN original

CAUSAL

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But given that it is mostly a two-party system, you can't jettison the extremes b/c they, in effect, define the party. So if you are to take middle of the road environmentalism to its extreme you'd have the span of the democratic party. If you are to take middle of the road pro-business profit-seeking to its extreme you'd have the span of the repubican party. The extremes do buttress the moderate stance and can't be hived-off.

I think that this may have to do with the fact that it's the extremes that are most bent on using the respective political parties to acheive their ideological ends. Maybe you could simplify the conservative ideology as something like "I want the governement to leave me alone as much as possible" and the liberal ideology as something like "I want the government to address social problems". If the political parties followed these, I think we'd go back to a pre-WWII era where Dems and Reps disagreed but didn't hate each other. But because the extremes have so much riding on their party, they're the ones who give in massive quantities to campaign chests, and they're the ones who turn up to vote in caucuses and the like. So the parties swing progressively further apart, at the expense of the more centrist conservatives and liberals.

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CAUSAL

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by clarkent913:
I don't remember Clinton inspiring such animosity, over seas, that Bush seems to garner.

Nor do I. It may have something to do with starting an aggressive war against a country who did not attack us first. That's not just a betrayal of Bush's supposed conservative values; that's downright (gasp) un-American (in the sense of being contrary to what had hitherto been accepted as standard American values).

Interestingly, the criticism of America has mostly to do with the war in Iraq, not the one in Afghanistan. I've done some speculating as to the cause of that. I suspect that when push comes to shove, most would say that we were right in attacking Afghanistan after 9/11. The Taliban clearly had a connection to Al Qaida in general and bin Ladin in particular. But the same can't be said of Iraq. Although I disagree with the majority of the "Bush lied" arguments, I do agree that Bush wanted to go to war, and used every justification at his disposal to make that happen. And that's enough for me to want him the hell out of the Oval Office.

________________________________________________________________________
- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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GEEZER

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How can those fact possibly be meaningless?

No one said they're meaningless, just that they don't mean what you infer.

Quote:
Or put it another way, imagine that we have several Chinese, Japanese, or Russian military installations within our borders. Under what circumstances would you consider that "meaningless"?

Again, never said meaningless. If we were allies with, say, the Republic of Russia, founded after the Democratic Revolution of 1925, and the Union of Western European and Canadian Socialist Republics was threatening to invade us, I wouldn't have a problem. You got any indication that foreign governments have asked us to leave and we haven't?

Quote:
Then, in context...

I just saw an interesting movie, called Trinity and Beyond which describes in detail our pursuit of unassailable atomic superiority, and the 330+ tests we conducted - often using soldiers (and sometimes civilians) - to achieve it. The point is not that we tested more weapons or tested them under egregious circumstances, but that it is documented that we were looking for absolute supremacy.

And if we'd had no nukes, the government that starved 35 million of its own people to death would have just decided to study war no more? Yeah, right.

Quote:
And don't forget that so far, we are the only nation to have used WMD on a civilian population, not once but twice.

600,000 people were killed in Rwanda by machetes. Think they feel any less dead?

Quote:
the Panama Canal, the price of oil

We own the Panama Canal? We own the oil? Venezuela sells us $37 billion a year at their price. How much oil Have we gotten from Iraq since 2003?

Quote:
or saving various nations from "communism"

The South Vietnamese soldiers I worked with wouldn't have minded being saved from "communism".

Quote:
I didn't say we HAVE control, but even now we have veto power through our membership in the Security Council. We may not be able to make the UN do what we want, but we can prevent them from doing what we don't want.

Almost all of the US vetoes in the past 20 years have related to Israel. Not that this is a great thing, but hardly preventing the UN from doing what we want. http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/membship/veto/vetosubj.htm

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:41 AM

How is it that I read the thread and think I'm caught up, but when I get back to it posts have been inserted where I thought I already read? Not a complaint 'cause I thank Haken and friends MOST sincerely for making this site and keeping it going. And this little thing that I think I notice every now and again is no big deal.

But it's making me feel like I'm slipping in my younger old age. Does anyone else notice this? Or is it me just rushing through carelessly?

GEEZER

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Maybe you could simplify the conservative ideology as something like "I want the governement to leave me alone as much as possible" and the liberal ideology as something like "I want the government to address social problems".

And what of those of us who want the government to leave us alone and instead address the social problems? I'm not poor, I got health insurance, I don't have a substance abuse problem, I'm not (dangerously) crazy, I don't commit crime, I don't engage in unprotected sex, I try to be environmentally responsible - I just want to be left alone to live my life. I do think that people who are poor, etc. should be helped by the government. I don't think the government should care who you have sex with (if it's safe), who you marry, what you worship (or not), how you keep from having babies, if you got guns in the basement(if you don't shoot folk with them for no good reason), etc.

So what kind of American am I?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
How is it that I read the thread and think I'm caught up, but when I get back to it posts have been inserted where I thought I already read? Not a complaint 'cause I thank Haken and friends MOST sincerely for making this site and keeping it going. And this little thing that I think I notice every now and again is no big deal.

But it's making me feel like I'm slipping in my younger old age. Does anyone else notice this? Or is it me just rushing through carelessly?

This thread is hopping right along, all right.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

RUE

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:48 AM

Geezer,

"Notice" isn't the thread" - and you apparently don't understand ironic understatement.

"you do actually consider Americans ugly and hateful" - just the ugly and hateful ones.

"the US, '...has an essentially sociopathic economy/culture.'" That argument has been made by sociologists, anthropologists and economists. I can't take credit for it.

"an irrational prejudice against Americans" I have some well-founded criticisms, while you seem to think ANY criticism is unjustified.

added: there was a funny article (funny in a ha ha ouch way) called something like "That Sociopath That You Work For". If I can find it I'll post it, since it illustrates some of my points.

CLARKENT913

Friday, April 27, 2007 2:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:
Originally posted by clarkent913:
I don't remember Clinton inspiring such animosity, over seas, that Bush seems to garner.

Nor do I. It may have something to do with starting an aggressive war against a country who did not attack us first. That's not just a betrayal of Bush's supposed conservative values; that's downright (gasp) un-American (in the sense of being contrary to what had hitherto been accepted as standard American values).

Interestingly, the criticism of America has mostly to do with the war in Iraq, not the one in Afghanistan. I've done some speculating as to the cause of that. I suspect that when push comes to shove, most would say that we were right in attacking Afghanistan after 9/11. The Taliban clearly had a connection to Al Qaida in general and bin Ladin in particular. But the same can't be said of Iraq. Although I disagree with the majority of the "Bush lied" arguments, I do agree that Bush wanted to go to war, and used every justification at his disposal to make that happen. And that's enough for me to want him the hell out of the Oval Office.

I do remember Clinton getting a lot of grief over Milosovic. A similar scenario,tyrant, slaughtering people, etc. His motives were questioned then, like Bush's are now. There was even a movie about it "Wag the Dog". But, whatever the case, it didn't garner the American people animosity from the rest of the world. And he also got grief for bombing Iraq, as well, though there were no troops involved, we did drop some bombs. But, again, no animosity was given. Or even his early attempts at getting at al qaeda, in Africa, bombing, what appeared to be, schools and such. Still, nothing.

But, you're right. Afghanistan seems to drop out of view, when people demonstrate or just disagree with the war. And there's more than just Americans there, there's Canadians, British, Australians...on and on (The coalition of the willing, remember ) And it, too, seems to be a losing battle, the Taliban coming back, troops being killed, no end in sight.

The truth is, America will pay for this, in the long run. For every family, in Iraq, or Afghanistan, that suffers a death, who knows how far that will reverberate into the future. If Bin Laden, in his reasoning for 9/11, referred to the Crusades, then where will this war take us?

Back on subject...

The thing is...If Americans think they're better than everyone else, and everyone else thinks they're better than Americans...is anyone really the better for it?

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