How Do You handle Death?

POSTED BY: RiveR6213
UPDATED: Sunday, January 18, 2009 19:09
VIEWED: 23778
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RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:30 AM

I don't know what all the drama's about regarding death. I've lost friends through suicide and natural causes. I've watched my friends go through the death of their parents and let me tell you; they were all over the place grieving, and getting all deep with thoughts and stuff. I'll never understand it.

Death for me means that this stupid madness called life is over, but some people take it in different ways. So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?

River

SINGATE

Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:37 AM

Personally I'd try putting Death in a full nelson until he, or she, cried uncle.

We all die, so what's the point in getting bent out of shape over it?

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by singate:
Personally I'd try putting Death in a full nelson until he, or she, cried uncle.

We all die, so what's the point in getting bent out of shape over it?

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

Good for you. That's how I see it also. Tag 'em and bag 'em I say.

River

SASSALICIOUS

Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:46 AM

I fall somewhere in the middle . . . I'm one of those people who keeps a lot inside and only privately acknowledges the pain. For instance, when my grandpa died last year (a few days before Thanksgiving), I cried in my room a few times and cried at the funeral, but kept it together for the rest of the world and when I called my dad to tell him and when I mentioned it to Dad's side of the family at Thanksgiving. After a couple of weeks, I'd accepted it and moved on.

I think the one that sticks with me the most though, is my best friend's two attempted suicides, especially since I was on the phone with her during the second one. She didn't die, but it took awhile to get over.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EMBERS

Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:53 AM

I've seen a lot of death too, which has made me pretty accepting of it. I think it is harder for people the first time they come face to face with the loss of someone they love, which leads to the need for some sense to be made of it.

I can understand and respect those who feel the need

but I've become pretty fatalistic my own self.

edited to add: I guess I've missed the threads where the men around here have been all judging and/or easily shocked...
seems to me we have mostly guys who are pretty accepting and open to the Wonder Women and/or Rivers in their lives.
(of course I avoid the RL threads)

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:13 AM

I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I'm so glad that my parents died early. I don't have to deal with their problems, and my friends...I got rid of the remaining few a while ago, and the others died from suicide or natural causes. I am so complete, so free of the human, bonding equation.

Later on in life, I will remember this board where I suddenly, for a year, dumped my whole life out to complete strangers in a mood swinging sort of way. You people have seen me through all kinds of stupid drama that the people I currently associate with have not a clue. This is very interesting.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

River

MONKSDAD

Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:17 AM

Dealing with death sucks, as human beings it is the worst thing we have to deal with. Losing someone close is , is, I cant describe it. but we move on, we have to or we ourselves will die. and that defeats the whole point now doesnt it, stay alive and look for better da¥s.

on these boards i dont even think of anyone as male or female. we are all just browncoats.

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

TUFTYFELLA

Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:33 AM

the way i see it is the day we are born we begin to die. what matters is what we do inbetween the two.

no point crying over it imo, its a part of life.

i dont believe in god or any of that crap (no offence u believers) but i cant wait to find out what happens after death... not that i want to die any time soon to find out that is...

ZOID

Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:40 AM

I discovered my maternal grandfather's body, with a ragged black hole in its (notice I didn't say 'his') chest cavity, following his 'gun cleaning' accident. I was six years old.

The drummer in my first band died in a car accident when I was about 20-ish. He was a habitual drinker (as were we all to some lesser extent), and had been drinking before the accident. We were returning from a weekend 'gig' (never liked that word) in Galveston on Highway 6, a 60 mph 2-lane. The official report was that he'd had a front tire blow-out in his TransAm (damned 'direct rack-and-pinion steering') and struck an El Camino head-on at highway speed. The other driver was uninjured. My friend's head was crushed by his drum kit, which he had stowed in the back seat. It rained for three days through his closed casket funeral, at which we his bandmates served as pall bearers. His widowed mother was inconsolable at the loss of her only son.

My paternal grandfather passed away when I was mid-way through Basic Training. He was the person to whom I most closely related in this world. He had an absolutely wicked sense of humor, but was gentle and loving. In his earlier life, he was reputed to be "as mean as a snake", mostly when he was drinking. I never saw that side of him. He was a temperate and lovely soul.

My father died in May of 2001, of inoperable lung cancer. My father's life was a tapestry of errors, misjudgments, immoderate behavior, alcoholism and sometimes, rotten luck. He truly struggled against Life itself, and was genuinely unhappy as a result. He never learned to just float on the current, like an inner tube ride on some lazy scenic river, gazing at passersby and the intricate beauty of Nature around him. He tried to swim upstream against that indolent current, and was slowly drowned for his pains. I drove across three states with my two (still living at home) children to see him, in the last week of his life. Cancer had diminished him physically, but not spiritually. He played with his grandchildren and took great joy in doing so, playing piano and trundling through the neighborhood in his powered wheelchair (with breathing apparatus). We left the next day, and other grandchildren came to visit and pay last respects over the next couple of days. He died on that Sunday. He donated his body to UT Medical Branch.

+++++++++++

When my 'grandaddy' died, I was in a car with my mother, an aunt, and his ex-wife, my grandmother. We were driving to supper when suddenly all three women looked at each other and my Grandmother said, "Harold is dead." They turned the car around and drove to his house, but he was already gone, with a hole like a doorway in his airless chest.

When Grandpa died (of cancer), they offered to let me go home for his funeral. Even though I was nearly 28 years old, I had been crying a lot over his loss (in seclusion). It hit me pretty hard since, as I said, he was the one human being I truly admired. I declined. I told them that I knew he would want me to finish what I had started.

When my father died, I felt saddened for the things we had never been -- could never be -- for one another; but I also felt a great wash of relief. God had made him what he was, and what he was had made his life a living hell. Who would not feel joy that such a life was through? As Jesus and the Operative said, "It is finished". But even though he had been given a heavy cup to bear, my father never gave up, never threw in the towel. In his last twenty years, he finally gave up drinking, though his uncontrollable temper and pathological jealousy still spoiled any human relationship he tried to foster. He was a thoroughly flawed man, and I respect him all the more for putting up with that lousy hand of cards without looking to take the easy way out. His life is an object lesson in courage that is not lost on me.

I do not grieve for the dead. Those are just bodies, the shells that used to hold their souls. I saw that with my own eyes at the age of 6. But I feel the

FROMTHEDARK

Sunday, June 11, 2006 12:56 PM

I dont grieve so much any more, i get the whole we are born most of us live then we die but yeah i spill a few tears for the dead only coz i know im not going to see them for a while but then there is nothing.
But i must admit when only a few months ago six teens around my age were wiped out when a car ran into them i was taken back for a bit longer then when i lose people whom i love.

But RiveR213 i agree humans suck i have more compassion for animals than anything else.

If at first you dont succeed, you wont be skydiving again

JOSSISAGOD

Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:25 PM

I see death as a transition, from living in one body to living in what some might call "The Force". I believe that the inhabitants of this 'verse are connected to each other(not through any type of acended being, list all acendeds who apply), and when they die they just become part of a larger existance. I don't believe that we go to heaven or hell but I do believe that we move on and become part of something larger than we once were. So, I don't sit around and cry about it when someone/Thing/Animal I know, dies.

Besides, it was their own stupid fault that they're dead in the first place!

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:55 PM

A person I know just lost someone and he's just walking around all zombie-like. I wanted to go over there and slap him and tell him to wake up, but I guess he's just going through his process of acceptance, so I better leave him alone. It’s not the end of the world he's still alive and kicking so what's the problem?
Something about the whole death thing angers me. People simply get strange and reflective in their thinking as though death hasn’t like been surrounding us all our lives. Not a day passes when we don't hear about someone dying. Open up a newspaper and we get to read all about it. Everyday this happens. What's the big deal? I guess it’s suddenly more traumatic when we happen to have known the person that died.
Even I got a little misty at one point over someone's death, but I wasn’t in the right state of mind, so from where I stand, it doesn’t really count.

I sort of like the new me. Uncaring, crazy, and devoid of any form of needing humans for anything. It's almost like I'm a machine, but if that’s what it takes to live here on Earth, so be it.

All this business about losing Grandma's and Grandpa's...sounds heavy, but better you than me. I'm glad I didn’t have to go through that. I’m as free as a bird in this day and time. No connections. Get rid of everyone and you won’t have to deal with people’s death. That’s the key.

River

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:56 PM

Feeling some pretty hollow vibes in this thread. I get cut up about death, whether its someone close to me or someone I have absolutely no connection to. If it's someone close to me then of course I get upset - I am NEVER going to see or talk to that person ever again, they are gone and everything they could have done in the world will never happen. Death may be a part of life but it is the worst part. People say there are worse things than death, and while that may seem to be the case at some times its almost always never too late to turn it around.
As for people I have no connection with at all, I do not understand how people can be so lacking in compassion that when they wake up in the morning and read that thousands of innocent people have been killed in an act of war or as a result of a natural disaster that they feel nothing. That they (and I apologise for this River6123) 'dont care about humans', and as a result feel nothing for the deaths of men, women and children who never had the chance to experience a full life. I don't understand how somebody can be that empty, that hollow that they do not care for the lives of fellow human beings, but can grieve for the loss of a television show.

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

Sunday, June 11, 2006 1:56 PM

Feeling some pretty hollow vibes in this thread. I get cut up about death, whether its someone close to me or someone I have absolutely no connection to. If it's someone close to me then of course I get upset - I am NEVER going to see or talk to that person ever again, they are gone and everything they could have done in the world will never happen. Death may be a part of life but it is the worst part. People say there are worse things than death, and while that may seem to be the case at some times its almost always never too late to turn it around.
As for people I have no connection with at all, I do not understand how people can be so lacking in compassion that when they wake up in the morning and read that thousands of innocent people have been killed in an act of war or as a result of a natural disaster that they feel nothing. That they (and I apologise for this River6123) 'dont care about humans', and as a result feel nothing for the deaths of men, women and children who never had the chance to experience a full life. I don't understand how somebody can be that empty, that hollow that they do not care for the lives of fellow human beings, but can grieve for the loss of a television show.

MIMA

Sunday, June 11, 2006 2:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

Mima's psych 101 on River who offered herself up for comment:

As soon as I read your first post, i knew that you were living in isolation. "only people who distance themselves have that attitude" i thought, "this person doesn't care about anyone." Then you confirmed it with your second post. The denial and anger in your posts makes me think that perhaps you're a)jealous you haven't found a true connection yet b)still pissed at your parents for dying, especially if you felt unloved when they did.

I agree that most humans suck. the endeavor I've chosen is to be strong enough to live life with an open heart. be very very cautious, but still reach out to people. turn from those who betray you, spend time on people who don't. reach out to people in need, and many times simple human decency (rare, i know) will build a connection that lasts. and when you do find a precious friend/lover/family member who wants to know who you are and still respects you and isn't afraid to share themself, it makes all of life and the other crappy humans bearable.

and you can't have that "oh death is no big deal" thing anymore unless you have a really really strong christian faith (which i dont). so if you don't have the "souls will meet again" thing going on, the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death.

we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger. community is what you found here river, and the anonymity of the boards is what makes you feel safe to share. it's why i love them too, plus that this particular set of boards is not full of stupid idiots. if the internet went away today- wouldn't you struggle, personally?

so that's my take on your comments- basically you're being a coward. and you're missing out. safety is lonely. that's why when you said "i am so complete" i laughed out loud. you are laying your {bleeding} proverbial heart out for strangers because you are not complete. you seek community.

we all do. we can't help it. i've really enjoyed reading your posts on other threads. thanks for being here. i see you river.

now if you see people in pain and you think "fools, you're so weak. death is certain so you're such dope"- you are mistaken in your judgement. instead you should be thinking "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?"

and as for your secondary rant, i don't agree with it all. send it directly to the people who insulted you and don't try to paint the boards sexist. i've been here for years and have never not once had a person who flamed at me by throwing my gender into the flame.

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 2:30 PM

Nice double post.

I care more about Firefly than I do about human life. Just because a person doesn’t grieve like you do doesn’t make them a monster, or hollow as you put it. I've had enough people in my life die on me to the point where death is not an issue. It really doesn’t matter. Death is something that happens. It's an unavoidable fact of life, so why sweat it?

It’s amazing that one has to be tossed into the 'hollow' category just for not feeling the way you do. Hello! This is earth where there are millions of people and each one of those people demonstrates a different personality. I'm sure that there are millions of people on this planet who no longer have feelings about death and don't react to it the way you do.

And death itself is a pretty nasty subject...people react to it in different ways. Some are heroic about it, some are afraid of it, and some just don't give a frak about it and find other people's reaction to it annoying.

Have you ever been around someone who just lost a loved one? All the screaming and crying that they do seriously throws a wet towel into what could have been a good day. And then they walk around like zombies all deep within thought about life, the universe, and everything. If this is a good thing I want to have nothing to do with it. If this is the price of being close to humans...you can leave me out of it.

River

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mima:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I will never understand why so many people make such a noise about death. I guess it comes out of the relationships that we form in our lives. The closer you are with people, the harder it is to take when they die on you. My goal is simple. Make no more friends, and death isnt an issue.

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

Mima's psych 101 on River who offered herself up for comment:

As soon as I read your first post, i knew that you were living in isolation. "only people who distance themselves have that attitude" i thought, "this person doesn't care about anyone." Then you confirmed it with your second post. The denial and anger in your posts makes me think that perhaps you're a)jealous you haven't found a true connection yet b)still pissed at your parents for dying, especially if you felt unloved when they did.

I agree that most humans suck. the endeavor I've chosen is to be strong enough to live life with an open heart. be very very cautious, but still reach out to people. turn from those who betray you, spend time on people who don't. reach out to people in need, and many times simple human decency (rare, i know) will build a connection that lasts. and when you do find a precious friend/lover/family member who wants to know who you are and still respects you and isn't afraid to share themself, it makes all of life and the other crappy humans bearable.

and you can't have that "oh death is no big deal" thing anymore unless you have a really really strong christian faith (which i dont). so if you don't have the "souls will meet again" thing going on, the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death.

we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger. community is what you found here river, and the anonymity of the boards is what makes you feel safe to share. it's why i love them too, plus that this particular set of boards is not full of stupid idiots. if the internet went away today- wouldn't you struggle, personally?

so that's my take on your comments- basically you're being a coward. and you're missing out. safety is lonely. that's why when you said "i am so complete" i laughed out loud. you are laying your {bleeding} proverbial heart out for strangers because you are not complete. you seek community. we all do. we can't help it. i've really enjoyed reading your posts on other threads. thanks for being here. i see you river.

now if you see people in pain and you think "fools, you're so weak. death is certain so you're such dope"- you are mistaken in your judgement. instead you should be thinking "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?"

and as for your secondary rant, i don't agree with it all. send it directly to the people who insulted you and don't try to paint the boards sexist. i've been here for years and have never not once had a person who flamed at me by throwing my gender into the flame.

Hey, This thread's not about me. This thread is about death and how we go about reacting to it. Not my fault I don't care too much about death...crap happens.

Also, I harbor no ill feelings towards my parents, matter of fact I was glad to see them go and good riddance if you ask me. Anyhow, none of what you said applies to me in any way, but it is interesting stuff, so thanks for the free psych 101, but I'm doing just fine thank you very much.

River

SHADOWFLY

Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:06 PM

Lost my father last year to cancer of the lungs. We had a large funeral, a great gathering to see him off. I have to say that I've never given death much thought until the old man died. We all die some day, and if this is so, my last days will be blessed with the faces of the ones I love some much seeing me off.

CYBERSNARK

Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:30 PM

My family skews toward the very old, so death has been a presence (or lack thereof) in my life for as long as I can recall. Mortality is just a part of things.

(I felt strange at my dad's funeral, looking around at everyone crying, and not shedding any tears of my own.)

I've kinda come to look on it as a blessing though; the men of my family don't age well. Senility, Alzheimer's, cancer. . .

(Dad was suffering, toward the end. Maybe not in pain, but his mind just. . . wasn't working right. He was forgetting people. He's not anymore, though. He's fine now, and I'll see him again, eventually.)

My mind is the only part of me that I've ever been proud of. The thought of losing my faculties is more terrifying than death and whatever might follow it. Like Bryan Adams said; hope to die before I get old.

Not suicide though; that's a coward's way. 'Sides, I wanna see how this story ends. I intend to burn out, bright and hot. I want people to remember me.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

My family skews toward the very old, so death has been a presence (or lack thereof) in my life for as long as I can recall. Mortality is just a part of things.

(I felt strange at my dad's funeral, looking around at everyone crying, and not shedding any tears of my own.)

I've kinda come to look on it as a blessing though; the men of my family don't age well. Senility, Alzheimer's, cancer. . .

(Dad was suffering, toward the end. Maybe not in pain, but his mind just. . . wasn't working right. He was forgetting people. He's not anymore, though. He's fine now, and I'll see him again, eventually.)

My mind is the only part of me that I've ever been proud of. The thought of losing my faculties is more terrifying than death and whatever might follow it. Like Bryan Adams said; hope to die before I get old.

Not suicide though; that's a coward's way. 'Sides, I wanna see how this story ends. I intend to burn out, bright and hot. I want people to remember me.

Nice post.

I also am not too crazy about the idea of losing control of my faculties, but that's what we have to look forward too when we get really old. I for one hope I get hit by a truck before I get too old so I wont have to experince being an old lady.

And suicide? been there done that and I botched it, so I guess I have to wait this life thing out, but I don't even see it as being a cowardly thing to do...sometimes you have to hit the suicide switch. Different strokes for different folks.

When I die, I don't want to be remembered at all, but I won't have to worry about that. I've fixed my life up so well that God himself cannot enter, so I got that covered.

River

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?

Death affects me like three people. Like Spock might see it, it is merely the logical end to a beginning. Like Kirk, I am deeply affected, yet I go on (think Edith Keeler), and privatly, like Buffy, I am momentarily destroyed.
I have many sides to me.

Schitzomaybe Chrisisall

SAMEERTIA

Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:50 PM

Wow.
I don't think I can even respond to this thread after reading the responses posted so far.

I am a Priestess of the Goddess. I understand the cycle of life, and I understand the transformations of death.

This does not mean that I do not grieve. Grief is not for the dead, it is for the living. My dear friend Eric is out of pain now. Somewhere he is safe and whole.

But that doesn't mean that I don't weep for myself, and for my loss of a friend. It doesn't mean that I don't occassionally see something that reminds me of him that causes my eyes to well with tears, and my heart to slow just a little.

Grief is healthy, it is as much a part of the lifecycle as living and dying. "What's the big deal"???? How can you even ask that? Someone who I love, who was a dear part of my life is gone from it. I cannot see him, cannot hear him, cannot laugh at his jokes, or look foreward to his next email. Am I not allowed to weep for my loss, and for the loss his family has suffered?

My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.

It isn't a weakness. It's one our greatest gifts.

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
So, are you the type that goes completely to pieces when death comes a calling, or are you the cool, collect type that understands the cycle of this stupid life and realize that life equals loss?

Death affects me like three people. Like Spock might see it, it is merely the logical end to a beginning. Like Kirk, I am deeply affected, yet I go on (think Edith Keeler), and privatly, like Buffy, I am momentarily destroyed.
I have many sides to me.

Schitzomaybe Chrisisall

Edith Keeler? 'City on the Edge of Forever.' My boat is named Edith Keeler.

I didn't like the fact that Edith Keeler had to die in order to put a stop to that growing, pacifist movment that she was fostering that would have kept the United States out of World war 2, and enabled Nazi germany to complete its heavy water experiments, so they could make atomic bombs. And with their V2 rockets take the world.

I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

Anyway, off topic. Good post Chrisisall, we seem to like the same things.

River

MIMA

Sunday, June 11, 2006 3:58 PM

I said:
" the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death. we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger." (a really cynical view of love as a need to feed the ego- i thought you'd dig that river!)

I think you're saying:
if you have no personal ties whatsoever, you have no need for self image/connections, thus are complete... so death has no meaning because the loss of others does not touch you and the loss of yourself does not matter.

i say: "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?" And I absolutely agree with Sameertia= grief is for the living.

you say: "If this is a good thing I want to have nothing to do with it. If this is the price of being close to humans...you can leave me out of it."

they are utterly different world views. where you see weakness, i see strength. where you see wasted energy i see an aspect of community- which added value to my life. you acknowledged that feeling grief is something you don't get. so i explained my version, as have others. you have simply restated your opinion. respond to ours.

on a more personal note: river... you're getting testy. this thread becomes about you when you respond to every single post personally. are you trying to convince us how superior you are? there is scorn all through your posts.

you're obviously really put out with having to witness grief in others. i get that you like being a machine. but then you get huffy about being called "hollow." yes there are many personalities and beliefs, and you just put serenityinscotland down for sharing hers. explain to her that even though you have not a shred of compassion for someone who has just lost a loved one, ("All the screaming and crying that they do seriously throws a wet towel into what could have been a good day") you are not "hollow."

why do you care you are labelled hollow? does it affect your self image? do you not like to think that there is someone who feels you are less worthy because of your isolation? see, this is my point: i challenge you are complete in yourself. you have needs of the ego: that means you want connections to validate that ego. whether it's membership in a tv's fan club or not. or you wouldn't want this chance to defend your anger at grief. you wouldn't feel the need to rip on people who feel grief. you wouldn't care about posting your opinions. you are isolated, you like feeling safe from the wreckage that can be grief, yet you ask people to talk to you about it while sharing deeply private things. like you're poking a scab.

i'm glad you're "good." i think you're clever and a good thinker. i acknowledge you have a different personality. now i'm challenging you to connect to me. see me, and respond without being huffy.

chrisisall- you so crack me up. ditto.

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:
Wow.
I don't think I can even respond to this thread after reading the responses posted so far.

I am a Priestess of the Goddess. I understand the cycle of life, and I understand the transformations of death.

This does not mean that I do not grieve. Grief is not for the dead, it is for the living. My dear friend Eric is out of pain now. Somewhere he is safe and whole.

But that doesn't mean that I don't weep for myself, and for my loss of a friend. It doesn't mean that I don't occassionally see something that reminds me of him that causes my eyes to well with tears, and my heart to slow just a little.

Grief is healthy, it is as much a part of the lifecycle as living and dying. "What's the big deal"???? How can you even ask that? Someone who I love, who was a dear part of my life is gone from it. I cannot see him, cannot hear him, cannot laugh at his jokes, or look foreward to his next email. Am I not allowed to weep for my loss, and for the loss his family has suffered?

My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.

It isn't a weakness. It's one our greatest gifts.

This thread's for people with different opinions on the subject of death, so you are right in the ballpark.

I simply see the crying over the death of a loved one as weak, and a meaningless act with no value at all and a complete waste of time. This is just my opinion of it, not the whole worlds...just mine. My life is set up so I don't have to give a damn about anyone, but it sounds like your life is setup for the feeling aspects of the human journey. You love your friends, you love your family. You are connected to people, and for some this is a good thing. For myself, people are expendable, and in the end really means nothing to me.

But I'm not the whole world. I'm just one small slice of it, which is a good thing because even I have to admit that a whole world full of people who think like me would not be a good thing.

River

PINBALLWIZARD

Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:08 PM

My first experience with death was with the death of my great-grandmother. I was 6 or 7. I remember comprehending what death meant before then, and that it scared me. I had consulted my father at the time about what it was to be dead, and him being agnostic, told me that no one really knew what happened when someone died, and that there was no reason to worry about it until it happened to you, which, he assured me, was a long way away.
When grandma died, it didn't occer to me that other people I knew could die too. I was only thinking about myself. I was taken off guard and cried my eyes out.

PDCHARLES

Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:
My heart breaks when I read this thread and see how cold many of you are, how dissassociated from sentiment, as though it is somehow a weakness to weep and to hurt.

I have run across several with this attitude towards death. Some see a lot in their lifetimes per job, war, etc. and become numb. Others, view themselves as some battlefield warrior (living in modern society mind you) and the grief is for the weak. Others see it as illogical to grieve, for it serves no positive purpose for the mind and body. I think a lot of it has to do with the disconnected nature of humans today. A social animal, more-than-likely developing the circles to protect one another, thus caring deeply with a bond. We see more and more of these circles breaking with alternatives to human bonding.

It IS healthy and prolly born by design, it is an emotion. The things that drive us to post, love firefly, and invent the internet. Some of these emote.s overpower the others. Like anger, fear, depression or even joy from another source. Apes haven't developed much in the way of society yet; they seem to show love and affection for one another and SEEM to grieve for death. But I bet there was some Silverback that just said F-It!

And yes River does not like being part of the herd... it is her choice and opinion and her theme from what I have read lately.

As for me, I grieve and will continue. I love people which includes family, friends, and co-workers (well , some of them) when they go I will miss them and show signs of grief.

EDIT: Damn! I need to type faster, looks like some of what i had to say was covered.

GO CANES!!!

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:18 PM

Cheers for the double post compliment.
I wasn't trying to label anyone (I knew it would come across that way though) I just couldn't think of another way to say what I wanted to. I feel that to get the best out of life you have to take the chance on connecting with people even though they might leave you. And if they do, you just have to take the pain, dust yourself down and move on. If you cut yourself off completely, what are you left with?

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mima:

I said:
" the loss of another person who saw you and valued you and validated your short mostly pointless life crushes some spark of your soul in a way that sends rage and fear into your heart. that's the big thing about death. we all want people to *see* us, and it's hard to find those people. and when they're taken from us, our whole self image is in danger." (a really cynical view of love as a need to feed the ego- i thought you'd dig that river!)

I think you're saying:
if you have no personal ties whatsoever, you have no need for self image/connections, thus are complete... so death has no meaning because the loss of others does not touch you and the loss of yourself does not matter.

i say: "wow there's someone who's not afraid of pain because they dared to love. wonder what that's like?" And I absolutely agree with Sameertia= grief is for the living.

you say: "If this is a good thing I want to have nothing to do with it. If this is the price of being close to humans...you can leave me out of it."

they are utterly different world views. where you see weakness, i see strength. where you see wasted energy i see an aspect of community- which added value to my life. you acknowledged that feeling grief is something you don't get. so i explained my version, as have others. you have simply restated your opinion. respond to ours.

on a more personal note: river... you're getting testy. this thread becomes about you when you respond to every single post personally. are you trying to convince us how superior you are? there is scorn all through your posts.

you're obviously really put out with having to witness grief in others. i get that you like being a machine. but then you get huffy about being called "hollow." yes there are many personalities and beliefs, and you just put serenityinscotland down for sharing hers. explain to her that even though you have not a shred of compassion for someone who has just lost a loved one, ("All the screaming and crying that they do seriously throws a wet towel into what could have been a good day") you are not "hollow."

why do you care you are labelled hollow? does it affect your self image? do you not like to think that there is someone who feels you are less worthy because of your isolation? see, this is my point: i challenge you are complete in yourself. you have needs of the ego: that means you want connections to validate that ego. whether it's membership in a tv's fan club or not. or you wouldn't want this chance to defend your anger at grief. you wouldn't feel the need to rip on people who feel grief. you wouldn't care about posting your opinions. you are isolated, you like feeling safe from the wreckage that can be grief, yet you ask people to talk to you about it while sharing deeply private things. like you're poking a scab.

i'm glad you're "good." i think you're clever and a good thinker. i acknowledge you have a different personality. now i'm challenging you to connect to me. see me, and respond without being huffy.

I don't see myself as being 'huffy' and I don't see myself poking at the misery and loss of others. I've mentioned private things about myself on this forum, matter of fact I think I've told all of you way too much about me. I don't feel like I'm in scorn-mode, and if I'm coming off like that I'm sorry...I don't mean too. I was just curious how some of you handled death. I shared my stuff. here's a post I did in another thread that I'm copying into this post:

I remember when I found my mother dead, i didnt act like Buffy at all, with panic, loss and fear. I was glad, but not glad in the joyful fashion. I was glad in the way that one experinces when a toothach goes away. I guess my mother had laid there all night dead and the blood had pooled to the center of her body. She was face down. I looked an touched with curiousity. It was weird but I called the ambulance and then went back to watching the Original BSG since it was a

ARCADIA

Sunday, June 11, 2006 4:55 PM

My reactions to death depend entirely on my relationship to the person and the nature of the death itself.

Both my great-grandmothers died when I was ten. I didn't cry at either funeral, because they'd both had major declines in their physical and mental states. I never want to live how they lived. In a strange way, I was happy for them. It was a little weird and awkward because of this, going to the funerals with all the sobbing people.

When I was sixteen a girl who used to be my fried died while car surfing. When I was eighteen, a woman who had been my aunt for about a yeat shot herself twice in the chest. I felt kind of shocked by both these deaths, but not sad at all, either. Just a little pity for those who were close to them, becaue those are horrible ways to do.

Recently, my Auntie died -- May 20, not even a month ago. This is the only death so far that has been in anyway hard for me. She took care of me when I was a kid for most of the day, free baby sitting, until I was five. I loved her. But she'd been suffering, too. She'd been housebound for about a decade. I cried at the funeral, which was kind of funny because I had to do a reading, so it was lightwaterworkd(I'm not the sobbing type)-reading-returnofthelightwaterworks.

I'm surprised I cried. I thought I was done with crying because a week before she'd died I had thrown myself a little pity party because she was dying and all the other sh*t that is going on in my life. Really, though, I was happy for her, too, because she was movie onto something better. I don't do the brooding or the zombie, thing. I have some moments of selffish sadness where I would have liked to know what she'd have to say about this or that, but mostly I am more relieved than anything.

So, yeah... when old people die, I'm ususally happy for them.

Peace.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Objects in Space"

River: It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think...
http://www.stillflying.net/ <-- Check it out!

MIMA

Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:00 PM

thanks for the post river. that's the kind of response i was looking for. i also liked the one you made to sameertia. i feel like you're responding to the ideas more, not just restating. i appreciate your willingness to clarify.

the huffy feeling i got from your dislike of the word hollow. you still haven't explained why you didn't like that label?

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mima:
thanks for the post river. that's the kind of response i was looking for. i also liked the one you made to sameertia. i feel like you're responding to the ideas more, not just restating. i appreciate your willingness to clarify.

the huffy feeling i got from your dislike of the word hollow. you still haven't explained why you didn't like that label?

I really don't have a problem with the word hollow.

Anyway, people have there own ways of coping with death. Some people work a lot so they won't have to think about it. Some people get all bent out of shape and their universe is crushed for a while. Some on the other hand get thoughtful and write a lot about how they feel about everything, and some start to eat a lot and do drugs, plus drink in order to fill up the emptiness around them in order to cope. Some people close up and never open again. Some people stop eating and sleeping, and some people commit suicide.

There are some cultures where they take the dead body, surround it with food and drink, and then everyone has like this party with the corpse right there. Now that's creepy.

River

SISTERBETTYX

Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:03 PM

Our family treats death like a celebration. All the families and friends from around the world show up and we have this huge party for 7 days. I don't know why we picked seven days to do it, but we do and everyone is encouraged to party hard which we do. After it's all over we sit in silence for 1 hour, and then we all go home.

“I don’t know. This here’s a spectacle might warrant a moment’s consideration.”

DEEPGIRL187

Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I really don't have a problem with the word hollow.

Anyway, people have there own ways of coping with death. Some people work a lot so they won't have to think about it. Some people get all bent out of shape and their universe is crushed for a while. Some on the other hand get thoughtful and write a lot about how they feel about everything, and some start to eat a lot and do drugs, plus drink in order to fill up the emptiness around them in order to cope. Some people close up and never open again. Some people stop eating and sleeping, and some people commit suicide.

There are some cultures where they take the dead body, surround it with food and drink, and then everyone has like this party with the corpse right there. Now that's creepy.

River

It's not really that creepy. Instead of mourning the person's death, they're trying to celebrate their life. The same principle works for the funerals held in New Orleans where they have parades and marching bands perform. These cultures make death into a positive experience instead of something negative to dwell on.

*************************************************

It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.

Chrisisall

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:26 PM

I avoid it like the plague.

Honestly I think death has a habit of coming at the wrong time. For some reason it comes too soon as a truck's mirror contacts a child's head and she's whipped out of existence.

Sometimes it comes too late as, on that very same day, Regan died long after he was too far out of it to enjoy life in any way.

Sometimes it can be put off like a relative of mine who lived for a full two years after he was told he had six months to live just because he didn't like the idea of those damn doctors telling him how long he could stay alive.

-

In some cases I don't understand other people's reactions. Remember that one they took off life support? After it happened her parents said she was in a better place, the same better place that they had been working to keep her out of.

What the hell was up with that? Here they are and they claim they honestly believe there is a better place that their daughter will go to as soon as she is no longer trapped in her body where she lacks the ability to enjoy life, so what do they do? They do everything in their power to make sure that she is not allowed to go to that place.

If I assume that they are honest and they really do believe in that better place the only conclusion I can draw is that they must have hated their daughter.

-

Personally I don't like death much most of the time. When someone is enjoying their life there's no reason to leave it and I hate to lose them. When someone is in horrible pain (it need not be physical) and they've got no reason to go on and there's nothing left for them here death can be something welcome, many people have earned a death to release them from the life they no longer want.

The problem can be that just because you want to be dead now doesn't mean that five minutes or five years from now you won't be happy you lived. Well if dying stopped you or those you care about from being happy then it wasn't a good thing now was it?

When your life is complete nothing good comes out of not dying, and thus death is a good thing, it stops you from going on longer than you should and ending a good life on a depressing note. When your life isn't complete death is something bad which destroys hopes and dreams and leaves a path of sorrow in its wake.

Death is about timing, and that is the only thing that separates the good from the bad.

-

I should point out that some people know when they're done. My great grandmother stayed alive for my great grandfather, when he died her life was complete and she followed soon after, she didn't need to kill herself, her body somehow knew that it was time to turn off. A lot of people are like that, even when they die violent deaths, just think about how many times someone had something to say, said it, and then died right after finishing those last words.

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.

Chrisisall

This thread is not about me okay? I'm sorry you guys don't agree with my world view and that's okay, but I didnt start this thread to talk about myself. I posted a lot to keep the thread going for a while...that's all. Just curious how people handle death in their lives thats all.

When I stress a point of view, I'm not stressing it as though my way is for everyone, I'm just sharing what works for me. So what if my view is a little bit more extreme than yours? So what? it doesnt stop you from having your own experience, so stay on topic people and leave the psych 101 at the door.

And Chrisisall, if I could go back in time I would choke the life out of that little girl. Just thought you might like to know that.

River

COPILOT

Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:15 PM

The only person I've been close to who died was my grandfather.
I lived with my grandparents all through high school. So basically I watched him die for three whole years.
At his funeral I read a poem I wrote for him at my grandmothers request.

I lost the paper but I rememeber one line

Death was not his tragity it was his release

So that is how I feel about death. But some days my christian upbring rears it ugly head and I worry that they're right and I'm a sinner and shall burn for all eternity.

An I carried such a torch.......For the Dark Lord

JTSKIER1200R

Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:49 PM

I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.

As for my beliefs, I believe that death is unnatural, something abhorrent to our very natures - yet it is something that comes. For me, as a Christian, death is an evil, and it is worth mourning because of the pain it causes, both for the living and for the dying. Pain of broken relationships, missed companionship, and innumerable other hardships. Yet, for me, there is hope of the resurrection in death. Death is a transition, the shedding of our bodies to a new state, and eventually the resurrection of our bodies. So, I mourn for death in the pain it causes and that is not meant to be here but is the result of evil, yet I rejoice in the promise of resurrection, both for me and for those who die in Christ.

I know at times religion can be offensive, so my apologies if it is, yet I felt I needed to tell how I deal with death, and how I feel death is worth crying over, for every human is infinitely valuable. My heart breaks reading some of these posts.

PS: I dont want this to become a thread on theology, so please, I dont wish to defend all I said above here. If you have specific questions for me, please PM me. I would love to hear comments, however.

FOLLOWMAL

Sunday, June 11, 2006 8:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I can't believe I remembered that! As a teen, I cried over that episode! I was such a weak-assed little girl back then.

Let you inner weak-assed little girl out sometimes, even if it's just to cry for Kirk or Buffy. You run with shields up to protect her, and she doesn't need it anymore.

Chrisisall

Chris you are a wise man.

I lost my father a year and a half ago at Christmas, Dec. 26th to be exact. He died on his Mother's birthday and I told him as he slipped away from me that he was so good to wait until the day AFTER Christmas. I sat with my Father all night long and waited with him for death. I was there when he drew his last breath. He was the bravest man I knew and he faced death with dignity and strength no different than I'd come to know him for. I cried, I cried plenty. I was also thankful that I knew him and he loved me and I loved him. I was grateful for all the years that we were so close.
I was grateful for the pain. I was so much more blessed by the love over the years.. that the pain was well worth it.

I expect to have some more death in my life before it's my turn. It will be horribly painful, but only because I was so close to those who I will lose that I will miss them, and mourn them. And rightfully so. I am alive and I love, therefore I will suffer. I'm glad it's so. I am not so afraid of my own personal pain, that I can't know love and enjoy it.

The greatest pain I can think of is to not have love of others and they of you.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

THESOMNAMBULIST

Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:21 PM

I only read the first few posts about this and frankly I'm amazed!!!

So what, it's now 'uncool' to morn the death of someone you love!

What the hell! This world is ridiculous!

OK I'll gladly fall into the uncool category and raise my hand and say I lost it when my grandfather passed away recently. Now when I say lost it I mean I shed several tears over a man who had a big hand in making my childhood a memorable one.

Now I may be all manner of wrong in feeling that way but frankly - I don't care.

This is one of the more ridiculous things I've come across here. Here on a forum that on a daily basis mourns the cancelation of a TV show.

While it's all so very philosophical to just sit and dispassionately look at the cycle of life and death as one great big moment of cosmic indigestion, I tend to find that the very human instinct of fear of death as a genuine factor to understanding the pleasures in life.

If people think death nothing to fear then I suggest you've never had to really struggle for life. Maybe y'all should take yourselves off to a far less sympathetic exsistence somewhere, where life is a real struggle, just for the more basic of things like warmth, and water and food. Oh I know it's a cliché to bring up such arguments, but clichés are such because they have a ring of truth about them.

I guarantee any of you, who have to do without some of your more basic of 'gifts' in your lives, you would crumble very easily, and I might add, with zero digntiy.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.

Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I only read the first few posts about this and frankly I'm amazed!!!

So what, it's now 'uncool' to morn the death of someone you love!

What the hell! This world is ridiculous!

OK I'll gladly fall into the uncool category and raise my hand and say I lost it when my grandfather passed away recently. Now when I say lost it I mean I shed several tears over a man who had a big hand in making my childhood a memorable one.

Now I may be all manner of wrong in feeling that way but frankly - I don't care.

This is one of the more ridiculous things I've come across here. Here on a forum that on a daily basis mourns the cancelation of a TV show.

While it's all so very philosophical to just sit and dispassionately look at the cycle of life and death as one great big moment of cosmic indigestion, I tend to find that the very human instinct of fear of death as a genuine factor to understanding the pleasures in life.

If people think death nothing to fear then I suggest you've never had to really struggle for life. Maybe y'all should take yourselves off to a far less sympathetic exsistence somewhere, where life is a real struggle, just for the more basic of things like warmth, and water and food. Oh I know it's a cliché to bring up such arguments, but clichés are such because they have a ring of truth about them.

I guarantee any of you, who have to do without some of your more basic of 'gifts' in your lives, you would crumble very easily, and I might add, with zero digntiy.

The
Somnambulist

Somnambulist,

The title of this thread is 'How Do You handle Death'

I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

Your point of view regarding other people's experiences in this area is interesting. but maybe you should STFU.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River

THESOMNAMBULIST

Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:05 PM

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:
I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River

Fair 'nuff. I didn't read all those posts. I did focus more on yours that's true. I'm sorry you've had it hard in your younger years as have many. I too have lived in under privilidged countries where I've had to see my friends I was growing up with have to fight for breakfast off a rubbsih heap. My reaction though has gone contrary to you I guess. But if you did your stint in the Peace Corp then you must have had a very different outlook to have done so, at least a different one to your current attitude which would appear to be more a symptom to a present malaise.

I don't have any wish to change your mind or anyone elses, I merely voiced mine. I don't know your circumstances to any full extent so I cannot say wether I'd be dead in your shoes or not. And I'm afraid I'm not going to enter into a comparison of what ugly things we may or may not have seen in our lives.

As it stands you and I are very much divided over this one.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

TWOSHELLS

Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:09 PM

I get introspective and remember, then I move on. I don't feel it necessary to wallow in depression over it, its the memory that counts.

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:
I'm the only one here who believes that it's uncool to mourn the dead. If you read through all the posts you will find a lot of opposition to my devil-may-care beliefs regarding mourning. And you will be delightfully surprised to find that most here agree with you.

I've had it pretty hard in my younger years, and I have been to other countries during my Peace Corp stint for 4 years, and I've lived in some places that the word 'hell' fits perfectly. I am well aware that life is a gift. But in my old age, I really could care less. I was never coddled nor given a break in life. Everything I acheieved, I did it through hard work and sacrifice. Nothing on this worlds for free.

Neither you nor anyone else will be able to change my mind concerning my world view. I seriously believe that if you could walk in my shoes...you'd be dead by now.

River

Fair 'nuff. I didn't read all those posts. I did focus more on yours that's true. I'm sorry you've had it hard in your younger years as have many. I too have lived in under privilidged countries where I've had to see my friends I was growing up with have to fight for breakfast off a rubbsih heap. My reaction though has gone contrary to you I guess. But if you did your stint in the Peace Corp then you must have had a very different outlook to have done so, at least a different one to your current attitude which would appear to be more a symptom to a present malaise.

I don't have any wish to change your mind or anyone elses, I merely voiced mine. I don't know your circumstances to any full extent so I cannot say wether I'd be dead in your shoes or not. And I'm afraid I'm not going to enter into a comparison of what ugly things we may or may not have seen in our lives.

As it stands you and I are very much divided over this one.

The
Somnambulist

I too have no intention in engaging in a 'who's the biggest gorilla in the park' Argument, but I want to clear something up with you. One would think that a person who lived and worked in other parts of the world would have a very forgiving outlook on life. My attitude during the peace corp. was one of a person who wanted to help where she could, and I was very determined to do so which I did. My personality at the time was what one could call a normal one. Happy, balanced, nurturing etc. I was very social, and had little stomach for people who couldn’t or wouldn’t accept the gifts that life gave them.

Then I quit the Peace Corp and got all ambitious, and after a hair raising 10 years I was in charge of my own company which has splinter into 12 facilities. I make great money, but in the process of all of that, I think I lost a certain amount of humanity along the way. Added to all the fun experiences I’ve had in the last 7 years, the end result is an apathetical bitch that could care less if people live or die. Isolation is my only friend, and humans are expendable.

I think this is a good explanation. I covered all the bases. Anyway, I thought I would give you a little bit more information. Now enough of me and back to the thread.

River

JTSKIER1200R

Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:
Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, something which brings pain and suffering.

Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River

I dont know how to do the fancy quote stuff, so here is my thoughts in a very bad format:

- The reason I thought I felt fear in you is because I thought it is what motivates you to not get into relationships. I understand that you dont fear death anymore for it cant touch you, but I thought you felt the pain of death, which is what causes you to live your life in such a way that it isnt there. It seemed to me like you were living your live based out of this fear, and therefore shut yourself up because of it. Im glad to hear I was wrong.

- I heard helplessness and sadness becuase of the talk of suicide and the general tone of your posts Also, I have a hard time imagining how I could find joy without a God and without people with whom to share my life. My wife is gone for the weekend, and I already am starting to get lonely... :)

- One question, what did you mean when you said you were too "willful" for religion? Just curious.

THESOMNAMBULIST

Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:43 PM

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:
I too have no intention in engaging in a 'who's the biggest gorilla in the park' Argument, but I want to clear something up with you. One would think that a person who lived and worked in other parts of the world would have a very forgiving outlook on life. My attitude during the peace corp. was one of a person who wanted to help where she could, and I was very determined to do so which I did. My personality at the time was what one could call a normal one. Happy, balanced, nurturing etc. I was very social, and had little stomach for people who couldn’t or wouldn’t accept the gifts that life gave them.

Then I quit the Peace Corp and got all ambitious, and after a hair raising 10 years I was in charge of my own company which has splinter into 12 facilities. I make great money, but in the process of all of that, I think I lost a certain amount of humanity along the way. Added to all the fun experiences I’ve had in the last 7 years, the end result is an apathetical bitch that could care less if people live or die. Isolation is my only friend, and humans are expendable.

I think this is a good explanation. I covered all the bases. Anyway, I thought I would give you a little bit more information. Now enough of me and back to the thread.

River

Well, my question to you now though is, do you not think your past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced. Y'know less of two extremes?

I only ask because your present time, as with your past time, is but a moment, a fraction of life, therefore do you not think that drawing a conclusion on life perceiveing it merely from the 'moment' point of view as somewhat limiting?

I mean I've had my moments where I've wanted nothing to do with anyone! (except my Dog he's the best) and it's left me thinking to hell with 'em all.

But and this thread kinda proves it - I always end up caring.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

RIVER6213

Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:
Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
I hope nobody is offended by this, but I have noticed that not many have posted anything religious here - so here goes.

River: I cried when I read your posts, not out of pity, but out of sadness for the emotions I feel in you - it seems in you there is only (I use that word carefully, not demeaningly) fear and hopelessness. I hope that is not the case.

I believe every human, even the one who dies while you eat a sandwich, is worthy of crying for. Death is worth crying over, for it is not how the world is supposed to be. Death is an evil, isomething which brings pain and suffering.

Thank you for taking an interest in this thread.

There's no fear, nor hopelessness here in my life. I'm as safe as a bug in a rug. happiness doesnt always have to have other people guest-starring in it. Why is it that a person who is alone and isolated always percieved as unhappy, hopeless, and full of fear?

My life is great and I have all the things I need in it. If I can manage to keep myself away from people...everything should be fine, but if I up and decide I need to hangout with other people...oh well, I only am asking for trouble and will get what I deserve; I always do.

Death is not an evil. it is something that's been around for as long as life has. Can you imagine what this world would look like if nothing died? Be pretty over crowded I suspect.

Sorry aboout the eating the sandwich and watching someone die line. I reread that later on and thought that it sounded rather ghoulish.

Anyway, your way of hadling death is just as interesting as everyone else here who posted, so you didnt offend anyone. And as far as your religious leanings, been there, done that. Interesting, but I'm too willful for that, but other people find that its a great source of strength and stability for themselves, which is a good thing. We all need a foundation.

You sound like you are a very feeling person...this is a good thing for you. keep it up.

River

I dont know how to do the fancy quote stuff, so here is my thoughts in a very bad format:

- The reason I thought I felt fear in you is because I thought it is what motivates you to not get into relationships. I understand that you dont fear death anymore for it cant touch you, but I thought you felt the pain of death, which is what causes you to live your life in such a way that it isnt there. It seemed to me like you were living your live based out of this fear, and therefore shut yourself up because of it. Im glad to hear I was wrong.

- I heard helplessness and sadness becuase of the talk of suicide and the general tone of your posts Also, I have a hard time imagining how I could find joy without a God and without people with whom to share my life. My wife is gone for the weekend, and I already am starting to get lonely... :)

- One question, what did you mean when you said you were too "willful" for religion? Just curious.

What I mean by "willful" is I like doing what I want to do, and half those things I like to do go against god. God wants all of us to be doing his will 24/7 and that gets boring real fast with a person like me. Just call me a total selfish person.

We have to put other people 1st before ourselves. Well, I say forget that.

We have to love our enemies. I say call in an airstrike on our enemies.

We have to forgive other people because we arent perfect. I say nuke the bastards, and launch a 2nd nuke at them just to make sure.

I'm too mean, too selfish and too egocentric to be a child of god. I went forth and found this out about myself this year. I can't ignore my true nature.

Oh well, life used to be so simple, but times change. Hope I anwsered your questions. Now back to the topic at hand.

River

CHRISTHECYNIC

Sunday, June 11, 2006 11:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
it doesnt stop you from having your own experience, so stay on topic people and leave the psych 101 at the door.

Unless you want everyone to say, "I deal with death by dying," how they deal with other people with respect to death is on topic, the topic you created.

The psych 101 is part of how they handle death, and how they handle death is pretty fucking on topic.

(The, "fucking," was for emphasis only.)

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, June 12, 2006 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by copilot:
So that is how I feel about death. But some days my christian upbring rears it ugly head and I worry that they're right and I'm a sinner and shall burn for all eternity.

Of the six early Christian belief systems three said that everyone made it into heaven in the end (Pope John Paul II seemed to support this, which is odd for a Catholic) two said that the evil ones were wiped out of existence, and only one said that damnation was eternal.

If memory serves that is.

For the Christian in you let me quote your holy book:
"God will have all to be saved."
God has a tendency to get what he wants. His will be done. But for those who didn't catch that bit it is more explicit elsewhere.

"In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live."
"In Adam all die, in Christ all live."
Interesting that, all who are condemned and die shall live through Christ, if someone somehow managed not to be condemned through Adam, perhaps if they were an aardvark, then they might not live through Christ, but the religion is very specific about the fate of humans.

Certainly more than two quotes worth, but now is not the time for too much.

RIVER6213

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Well, my question to you now though is, do you not think your past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced. Y'know less of two extremes?

I only ask because your present time, as with your past time, is but a moment, a fraction of life, therefore do you not think that drawing a conclusion on life perceiveing it merely from the 'moment' point of view as somewhat limiting?

I mean I've had my moments where I've wanted nothing to do with anyone! (except my Dog he's the best) and it's left me thinking to hell with 'em all.

But and this thread kinda proves it - I always end up caring.

The
Somnambulist

The answer to your question is no. I don't believe it’s possible for my past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced.

It's also very easy to see how a person like me is going to end up. You take what you see now and extrapolate. A blind person can see it.

The safest thing for me to do is keep myself safe and try to limit my exposure to other people. Don't make any close friends and stay the hell out of committed relationships. Avoid human contact at all costs, and keep everything superficial. I think if I do this everything should be okay.

Hanging around those weird Christians a few months ago really made me want to lock myself away as fast as possible. They were a shock, but they were nice, and they really wanted to be friends. I had to get away from them. Friends have expectations of you. I don't want anyone in my personal life to have any expectations of me, and I don't want to have expectations of them.

I'm 44 years of age. I've lived long enough to see how the game of life is played and my role in it. As far as I'm concerned, the game isn’t worth playing because the rules are too weird, and I'm tired of all of it anyway. I can't commit suicide because I tried that already and I have a stiff shoulder that's healing pretty well along with some pain as a reminder that I'm an idiot.

So the next thing for me to do besides self-termination is isolation. I've got maybe another good 20 years left so I think I can hide out for that whole time. It’s not like I left anyone around who would miss me. I made certain that there wouldn’t be any people who missed me.

I am proud of the apathy that I have regarding other people's death. To not need people is a freedom that a lot of folks really don't know about. It’s like being unchained.

Oh well, I'm rambling.

River

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:46 AM

Ok, I have a question which, unlike the "pyche 101" other people were doing, is off topic.

You don't care about us because, well, we're people, and you don't care about people. If we all died horrible painful deaths you wouldn't even shed a tear, at least that's the impression I get from your posts, so if we have so little of an impact on you, if we matter so little, why bother talking to us?

You wouldn't miss us were we gone, so what possible purpose is there for being here to begin with? That which won't be missed can hardly be something gratifying. I mean if you don't feel worse without something by defintion of the word, "worse," you do not feel better with it.

You serve yourself, you said so, how can interacting with people you wouldn't lament the absence of possibly be serving yourself?

Why not go out and find something you care about, something you enjoy? Something where you actually feel better when you have it than when you don't.

-

I'm not saying I want you gone, I'd miss you were you gone, but this is a forum, and all you can do here is interact with the people you couldn't care less about. Why not enjoy yourself?

RIVER6213

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Ok, I have a question which, unlike the "pyche 101" other people were doing, is off topic.

You don't care about us because, well, we're people, and you don't care about people. If we all died horrible painful deaths you wouldn't even shed a tear, at least that's the impression I get from your posts, so if we have so little of an impact on you, if we matter so little, why bother talking to us?

You wouldn't miss us were we gone, so what possible purpose is there for being here to begin with? That which won't be missed can hardly be something gratifying. I mean if you don't feel worse without something by defintion of the word, "worse," you do not feel better with it.

You serve yourself, you said so, how can interacting with people you wouldn't lament the absence of possibly be serving yourself?

Why not go out and find something you care about, something you enjoy? Something where you actually feel better when you have it than when you don't.

-

I'm not saying I want you gone, I'd miss you were you gone, but this is a forum, and all you can do here is interact with the people you couldn't care less about. Why not enjoy yourself?

I don't even know how to answer your question.

River

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't even know how to answer your question.

Fair enough.

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:57 AM

Quote:

I guess i really don't care about humans. The human race can kiss my ass.

River

River - I won't kiss your ass

but I WILL give you a hug!

I myself cry at McDonald's commercials. I can handle death. I don't fall apart in emergencies, and I don't act a fool. But death affects me for a long time. My grandma died in March - still not dealt with it really.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, June 12, 2006 3:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
But death affects me for a long time. My grandma died in March - still not dealt with it really.

My grandmother died the semester before this past one, but it didn't really hit me until the one that just ended. My worst semester, I just couldn't stop thinking about the results.

I find that I'm not as sad that she's gone as what I see happening as a result, the farm will be sold and ripped up, her house will probably be torn down, all that she physically left behind will be gone, it'll be like she never existed except for a marker in a cemetery.

She had a good life and if she was right she’s still having one, back with her husband, so I don't really feel bad that she died, though I do miss her, but the idea of the place they lived, the farm he worked, the strawberry fields I grew up in and have always thought of as an extension of my grandparents, and all else they left behind being destroyed. That makes me want to cry.

Death is just another part of life, in fact it's the defining part, something is only alive if it can die, we all move toward it, but we leave marks, those should stay and be remembered long after people forgot who made them, not be blown away like footprints in the sand.

That land, that house my grandfather built and both of them loved, those were marks that should have lasted, but they wont.

-

So I guess that's how I handle death, I'm more concerned with preserving what someone left behind than understanding where, if anywhere, they went. I'm more afraid of losing what I remember them by than ... well something or other.

-

Selfish I suppose.

CHRISMOORHEAD

Monday, June 12, 2006 5:34 AM

I cannot recall the first ten years of my life, suffice to say, it's been assumed and reported to me that some run of the mill tragedy is probably the cause. There were probably lessons taught that I had to relearn in that time span, and if I have any prior encounter with death, it's not one that I can conjure very clearly. Everyone experiences it young to a degree, loss of friends, grandparents, etc. I know that a childhood friend with cancer died while convulsing in bed, falling out, and breaking his neck. But I didn't see it. I know I attended several funerals when I was young, but of people that I didn't know. Dead bodies are just life size dolls to someone who doesn't understand.

My first recollection of death is one many children experience much younger. It was with a small creature; a hampster. He was mine, and I was 13. At the age of 13, I still didn't have a grasp on what death was. But I liked pro-wrestling, so it didn't strike me as odd to power bomb my hampster onto my bed. Having done it so many times without killing him, I moved on to the hard wood floor. He landed, and instead of rolling back onto his feet, his head remained leaned back and his chest began heaving. I was so scared, I picked his limp body up and put him back in his cage. I watched him lie there in the corner, struggling to breath, the life slowly fading from him. Then he stopped. I cried very hard that night because I was afraid. All these stories of God and morality when I was growing, and now I had taken the life of a living creature, so small and innocent, it's care and protection having been entrusted to me by my parents. Like any and all tragedies, I got over the immediacy of the feeling, but I'm very sure that the meaning of it all was absorbed as a first and permanent idea of life and death.

Throughout middle school, I was picked on and chastised. But as my love for pro-wrestling grew, so did I find that I had a unique indifference to pain. Eventually I began head butting walls and lockers, jumping off of balconies, letting people hit me and slam me to the ground. In all of the confusion, I made what I believe is a common mistake; I mistook pain for death. It made sense in a rudimentary way. Death is an ultimate outcome of pain. Bleeding out, burning, drowning, heart attack, even dying in your sleep is accompanied by several months or years of pain leading up to it. So now, naturally, I have a tough guy image, not afraid of pain and therefore not afraid of death... or at least, not my primitive understanding of it. I wear my scars on my sleeve, or actually, my arm. Self mutilation isn't beyond me, because the scars are further proof that I'm tough and brave. You might call it insane, but imagine my surprise many years latter when I find similar cultural beliefs in the German Schmiss and the Japanese practice of Matanuki.

Of course, no wannabe bad ass is complete without his defining moment as a pathetic wimp. Mine came in 10th grade when I was arrested for assault and possession of a weapon on school grounds. I was taken into handcuffs and spent the night in a holding cell. Again, I cried, because now I knew the difference. I found out that night that indifference to pain was not the same as indifference to death, and I found out that there were many worse things in the world than either pain or death.

When things were settled, and I was attending a new private school for trouble makers, pro-wrestling just wasn't doing it anymore. I had once sawed my arm down to the bone just to scare a girl into not talking to me, but that was small beans to what I was into now. I needed something deeper and more stable than a soap opera. Although I had been routinely practicing martial arts from the age of 10, I was never very serious about it, but now it became an invaluable outlet. Martial arts led to Japanese history, and eventually a synthesis of the two lead me to the Hagakure, "Hidden by Leaves" by Yamamoto Tsunetomo. In it, Tsunetomo identified death as the most sincere act that one cou

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 12, 2006 6:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I watched him lie there in the corner, struggling to breath, the life slowly fading from him. Then he stopped. I cried very hard that night because I was afraid. All these stories of God and morality when I was growing, and now I had taken the life of a living creature, so small and innocent, it's care and protection having been entrusted to me

You failed that creature like someone failed you, you are that hampster, emotionally (Please excuse the simplistic yet often true psych 101). Forgive yourself as you would forgive those who failed you, as you would forgive another child who killed his hampster by a mistake in his under-developed judgement. We, our parents, and our grand-parents are human, and subject to flaws and pressures. However, we, at the more recent end, can more easily benefit from hindsight, and evolve emotionally.

Now take two asprin, and reply in the mourning.

Doctor Chrisisall

THESOMNAMBULIST

Monday, June 12, 2006 8:55 AM

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:
The answer to your question is no. I don't believe it’s possible for my past feelings/outlook on life/death could return or perhaps be more evenly balanced.

OK I understand that... I think it can but I could be wrong.

Quote:
It's also very easy to see how a person like me is going to end up. You take what you see now and extrapolate. A blind person can see it.

I don't think such things are so cut and dry River

- but assuming they are fair enough. I guess there is nothing wrong in seeing where you're going.

Quote:
The safest thing for me to do is keep myself safe and try to limit my exposure to other people. Don't make any close friends and stay the hell out of committed relationships. Avoid human contact at all costs, and keep everything superficial. I think if I do this everything should be okay.

With this I agree - it probably is the safest thing to do. In my past, I would have agreed with you whole-heartedly too.

Quote:
Hanging around those weird Christians a few months ago really made me want to lock myself away as fast as possible. They were a shock, but they were nice, and they really wanted to be friends. I had to get away from them. Friends have expectations of you. I don't want anyone in my personal life to have any expectations of me, and I don't want to have expectations of them.

Actually River here is where I disagree with you more than at any other time. Personally real friends shouldn't have expectations of you. That's kind of the point of really good friends, they take you for what you are. I will openly admit here that I am extremely lucky with a couple of my best friends - I have two in particular who are like this. They take me just as the: awkward, opinionated stubborn, short, curly, haired bugger that I am, and I ,in turn, take them for what they are: faults aplenty!

Quote:
I'm 44 years of age. I've lived long enough to see how the game of life is played and my role in it. As far as I'm concerned, the game isn’t worth playing because the rules are too weird, and I'm tired of all of it anyway. I can't commit suicide because I tried that already and I have a stiff shoulder that's healing pretty well along with some pain as a reminder that I'm an idiot.

Y'know when I was 14 I had life figured. When I was 21 I had re-evaulated it and summised it was

Since then and I'm now 35, I've jumped from great to bad so many times I've lost count. Thing is I know when I'm 55 I'll have summised life in an altogether different way... And so it goes on.

(On a slightly side note, and I'm sorry about this, but have you considered living in a different country/society? I only ask because I found sense of a sort in the Caribbean. I know that sounds like some kind of idealistic pipedream. But a stint around different people and culture often does the trick. Or at least it did for me.)

Quote:
So the next thing for me to do besides self-termination is isolation. I've got maybe another good 20 years left so I think I can hide out for that whole time. It’s not like I left anyone around who would miss me. I made certain that there wouldn’t be any people who missed me.

:(

Quote:
I am proud of the apathy that I have regarding other people's death. To not need people is a freedom that a lot of folks really don't know about. It’s like being unchained.

I understand this 100% I'm a big fan of isolation. I occasionally do this, but with no long term commitment of course. And that's maybe how it works for me, as an occasional panacea.

Quote:
Oh well, I'm rambling.

No problem... I like discussing such things.

Ric

www.cirqus.com

RIVER6213

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:31 PM

TheSomnambulist,

You certainly point for pointed my last post. I really don't know what to say seeing I just woke up.

I guess the only thing I can say for now is this regarding living in another country or travelling around. No matter where I go, I take myself with me. So going somewhere really means nothing. I best stay where I'm at.

I honestly didn't want this thread being about me, but it looks like it ended up that way. Just wanted to know how people handled death. Now I need to go find some coffee and get used to gravity pulling at me....the benefits of age.

River

MICK91

Monday, June 12, 2006 2:41 PM

I like to think that grow old and die within a certain time period so that we would try to appreciate every day that we are alive. Besides, who knows if we don't just move on to a whole different level of existence...

MICJWELCH

Monday, June 12, 2006 3:45 PM

Sorry if I haven't read all of the responses to this, but I haven't been on the site much lately.

I don't see death the same way most people do, because I believe we existed before we were born, and we will continue to exist after we die. I don't fear my own death.

I do fear the death of others though. I didn't take my grandfather's death as hard as the rest of my family, but it was hard. I miss him. That's the problem. I won't see him again until I die. And once that happens, I doubt it will seem like much time has passed. But until then, it is a long time.

I am very close to my family, especially my wife and my kids. Even though I know I would see them again, I would grieve for them. It's natural to feel pain. It's natural to die too, though.

JIGMAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 3:46 PM

Please forgive me if my thoughts sound naive, as I am nigh but an untstable college sophmore. However, I have dealt with death on a few occasions. My father was killed in a car wreck recently, my grandparents were killed off by various maladies over the years, and my best friend (the kind with no expectations) is dying of a slow-killing medical disorder. This is just to inform of of my past experiences with death.

I do not believe in grieving for the dead. When death comes into my life, I rejoice. I rejoice in the memories of those that I have lost. I think of my fortune tho have known these mighty people that have enriched my somewhat meager existence by having known them. I have a slightly morbid outlook on life in that I acknowledge the absolute that I will die, and in a long enough timespan, the world will be as though I have never existed. But I consider this not to be depressing. On the contrary it drives me to push a little harder, to earn my right to say I am alive and have been in the company of those who truly lived. When I am dead, I hope people will remember me as a man who fought the good fight, never gave in and took a cowards path. I consider that the more I earn my existence each day, that will be just a little bit longer that those who survive me will remember me just a little bit longer for it.

As such, I do not believe in greiving over a person's death. The person is dead and that means thier problems here are over. They lost the fight, as we all will someday. I am still here, still fighting, and instead of greiving a person's death, I revel in thier life. I believe that there is something after death, and that is all I need to know about it. The afterlife does not concern me, after all, I going to find out no matter what eventually, so I would rather concern myself with the sensations of this rather fleeting existence. And when I think of those not here anymore, I breathe deep in thier memories, and feel all the better that I knew people when they were alive.

I suppose it was having this philosophy on life that drew me to Firefly in the first place. Fight the good fight, even if it is inevitable that you lose.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Monday, June 12, 2006 3:59 PM

Quote:
I've been homeless and starving at different points since I got my 214, and the only thing I can say about death is that it's stayed both close and far away enough to fuck my life up.

Chris

Have you been able to access any of the VA's services at all?

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

ZOID

Monday, June 12, 2006 4:04 PM

Who's gonna tell you when
It's too late?
Who's gonna tell you things
Aren't so great?

You can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's wrong...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?

Who's gonna pick you up
When you fall?
And who's gonna hang it up
When you call?
Who's gonna pay attention
To your dreams?
And who's gonna plug their ears
When you scream?

You can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's wrong...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?

Who's gonna hold you down
When you shake?
And who's gonna come around
When you break?

You can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's wrong...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?

You know you can't go on
Thinking
Nothing's gone...
Who's gonna drive you home
Tonight?

Serenadingly,

zoid

P.S.
Lyrics by Ric Ocasek, vocals by the incomparable, late, lamented Benjamin Orr (nee: Orzechowski), who died of pancreatic cancer on October 3, 2000, at the age of 53.

What is lost when a human being dies? Nothing much. Just everything... Anybody who doesn't 'get' that needs to pull their head out of their ass. I mean, could'ja be a little more self-absorbed? I don't think so.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

JIGMAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 4:13 PM

To quote the devil:
"Vanity, definitely my favorite sin."

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

ZOID

Monday, June 12, 2006 5:24 PM

A little exercise in analogical thinking, for everyone:

Why was (virtually) everyone so accepting of Book's death in "Serenity", yet so incensed, irate, gut-punched by Wash's death?

I mean, they were only fictional characters, right? And Wash was nobody's definition of a hero (he was the 'common man' character), nor was the sudden extinguishing of his life particularly heroic. Hell, he didn't even get to finish his movie-cliche 'last words'...

So why the furor? Are we grieving for Wash, or are we grieving for Zoe? Or are we grieving for our own loss -- never seeing or experiencing this person again -- even though he was only a fictional character? How about some combination of all these aspects?

While you're pondering that, keep in mind that we're talking about a parallel to real people dying in the 'real' world in which we live. Even those we don't know. Every life has worth, every loss of that valuable worth is felt deeply by someone (even if it's only me and kindred souls).

Unless of course, you have succeeded in killing yourself emotionally, while still cluttering up the environment physically...

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I don't know if Joss handled Wash's death the way he did on purpose, but that was a stroke of genius, and no doubt about it. By not letting him finish his 'last words', Wash becomes the very image of the way the 'comman man' dies: Suddenly, leaving things unfinished, and almost unattended, as Life and its challenges continue to rush at those who must carry on. And yet, we still mourn and miss them in quiet, unguarded moments, even years later. Even years later, we may be transfixed by a happy memory of a lost friend or loved one; a word spoken, a loving caress, or a funny facial expression.

Anyone who says they can't feel that is either lying (cowering in fear) or very sick in the head. To those in the former category: Grow a pair and get back in the game; you "have nothing to fear but Fear itself". To those in the latter category I recommend, as Dennis Miller put it, "leaning in and taking one for the team"...

(NB: Baseball-speak, meaning 'leaning in' to the strike zone and being intentionally struck by a fastball (in the head), so that the team gains an advantage at the expense of the batter's personal physical pain. Capisci?)
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

TRISTAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 5:52 PM

Amen, Zoid.

____________

WINDIE

Monday, June 12, 2006 6:17 PM

Well river6213, you have managed to pull me in again, very interesting thread.

I think I am more like you than I would really like to be. Ok not as open as you appear to be now, but hey I am a big believer in sh!t happens.

As for the whole death thing I have seen enough for me not to even think about it anymore. It is just what happens, people can bitch and wine all they like, you're still getting a good bite of death eventually. There is nothing you can do about it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you are going to get there.

Human's in general tend to think that they are here for a special purpose, well we are not. There is a big cycle that goes something like you're born, you do a bit, then you get off the bus and give someone else a go. It's as simple as that, I don't even believe that you have much choice in how it is going to be unless you are born into money. Personally I am glad I wasn't I like the uncertainty that goes along with having just enough. It would take the fun out of life if I could just say I want that one and that one, oh and that one as well.

But as for death who cares. I don't and when I am gone don't grieve, just have a good party and get on with your existance. I would much rather be the cause of a damn good hangover that you won't forget in a while than be cried about.

Why have they taken the sky from ME

JIGMAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 6:28 PM

Well spoken. In referandum to my previous post I obviously agree.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

JIGMAN

Monday, June 12, 2006 7:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

P.S.
I don't know if Joss handled Wash's death the way he did on purpose, but that was a stroke of genius, and no doubt about it. By not letting him finish his 'last words', Wash becomes the very image of the way the 'comman man' dies: Suddenly, leaving things unfinished, and almost unattended, as Life and its challenges continue to rush at those who must carry on. And yet, we still mourn and miss them in quiet, unguarded moments, even years later. Even years later, we may be transfixed by a happy memory of a lost friend or loved one; a word spoken, a loving caress, or a funny facial expression.

Anyone who says they can't feel that is either lying (cowering in fear) or very sick in the head. To those in the former category: Grow a pair and get back in the game; you "have nothing to fear but Fear itself". To those in the latter category I recommend, as Dennis Miller put it, "leaning in and taking one for the team"...

Zoid, while I do agree with some of the things you said, there is a point I must disagree with you on. I do not believe that people who do not feel grief at the loss of a loved one fall into one of those two catagories. From personal experience, I do not dwell sorrowfully at experiences never had with my father in the quiet times, but rather I think with happiness upon the times that I did have with him. When I do this, I never feel regret,or anything like that. My father is dead. I will never see or speak with him again, save in my mind's eye.

I have seen people who react with grief at loss, and have myself in the long past, before I came to understand that it is better to reflect fondly on a person's life rather than sady on thier death. Simply take death as it is: an ending. There is nothing sad about it, and never dwell on missed opportunities, because nothing good can ever come of it.

I suppose you could say I also take a bit of Jayne's attitude to death in The Message as well. When death has come to to me in the past, immediately after, I feel the need to just DO something to help reflect, rather than sit around moping. I would ride my bike, or climb a tree, or start a new picture(I am an art major), while I think of the person I lost with fondness. And the memories would always make me smile.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

REYNOLDSFAN34

Monday, June 12, 2006 8:29 PM

Reading these posts I have to come to the conclusion that something in this society has shut off so many young people from caring, from their emotions and from love. I am 55, and I am grieving very much, for my Mother died about 2 months ago. Yes, she was in bad shape and in many ways it is a relief, I had taken care of her for 6 years, and the last ones over 2 years 24/7. She was 89 years old, I am an only child. And yet, I miss what there was of her, her smile, telling her I loved her, the small things she might be able to still enjoy. I loved her more then words can say and while it might be better for her now, I am extremely saddened. I changed her, fed her, kept her alive. I am from a somewhat better time, I think. These days, what with illegal immoral wars, and all people can think about is themselves, and not acknowledge that and the other evils going on around them, and the shallow celebrity culture, and maybe so many not having a close attachment to someone, well, it is very sad. I miss my mom, always will, and did the best I could for her. She was a wonderful person, when she was herself, and sacrificed for me and my mostly ill father. I am honored that I took care of her, and will miss and love her till I am no more. I think it is sad so many here are so crass and flip about it,, it shows me sad things about today's world.

I stand between the Candle and the Star. Between the Darkness and the light.

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Monday, June 12, 2006 8:45 PM

River,

You're my kinda crazy.
The only death of a loved one that still bothers me is my kitty that I had & loved for 16 years. It's been 3 years & it still makes me cry like a babe.

Otherwise, I tend to react very much like you, not seeing what the fuss is about.It's not like it can be avoided or anything.

Bryce
*************************************

I swallowed a bug.

RIVER6213

Monday, June 12, 2006 8:57 PM

How does one handle death?

Many people have presented many ways and methods answering this question. It makes you think a lot about death. As I stated in previous posts, I boasted about having no problems with my death or the death of others, which still holds true.

Sometimes, when you run into people like this, for a moment, you could actually become a little envious of their attitude concerning death because it seems so clear-cut. Either they are hiding something, or they may actually feel this way, but with the balance of cause and effect of life...in this area, and this attitude for some, the balance shows itself in a different direction.

I begin to think about some of your responses to my and other people's posts from Sunday, and I found myself at certain points, for a moment, feeling rather smug that I didn't have a problem dealing with death, but then someone, and I can't remember the name of the poster, said something that caught in my mind like glue and I haven’t been able to get rid of it. It kept me up all night long. I’ve never thought in this direction before because I was always trying to make up excuses; was always trying to hide this from myself. I have no problem dealing with death all right, but I DO have a major problem dealing with life.

Self-Pity Mode- Engaged
Off-Topic Mode -Engaged

I'm sitting here at my desk at work feeling really miserable because I now know that I hate my life. I mean really hate it. I hate this thing I’ve created…its so soulless. I hate this company I started. I hate the people. I hate coming in here and seeing their creepy little faces expecting me to make a decision. I hate their expectations of me. I hate that they change their attitudes around me and try to kiss ass. I hate the backbiting they do with each other. I hate my cars, and I hate my boats. I hate that people put on a fake face to me just because they know I have money at this company. They fucking French kiss my ass here to get ahead. I hate the stupid parties that I have to throw for these idiots here to make them happy and work harder. I hate the paperwork; GOD!!! I hate the paperwork! I hate the meetings. I hate it I hate it I hate I hate it!!!!

I wish I could just leave it all behind me. I feel like running away from it all. I wish I were poor and happy living in some hellhole somewhere, sharing a can of tuna with a person I love. I wish I could change my personality, and my race and be someone else. I hate being me. I’m so joyless, and boring. I’ve become what I hate the most. I’m this soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole. Is there an asshole gene? If there is I have it in spades.

You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

Self-Pity Mode Disengaged
Off-Topic Mode Disengaged

River

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, June 12, 2006 9:51 PM

Sometimes I like to think of myself as a writer, I'm not a very good one and I never published anything, but there is one story I believe in, a novel that I wish I had the skill to write the way it deserves to be writen.

This is the main character from it, Thomas who is narrating, and several minor characters he's having lunch with in high school. The conversation is hardly deep, but it's the kind of conversation I had in high school so I figured it fit.

It's not polished or even remotely good, but I feel like sharing it. The characters mentioned are Ryan (Ry), Alex (Lex), and Cassandra (Doom.) Thomas doesn't even use his own name much and never took the time to get a nickname.

So here's how a fictional character looks at death, which is different from handling it, but I was reminded of this by, "Or are we grieving for our own loss -- never seeing or experiencing this person again -- even though he was only a fictional character?" And the idea that the bad part of death is the loss of experience.

-

"I don't think anyone fears death," I said, entering into my first conversation with them.

Most of them looked at me funny, Lex said, "Huh?" I decided to explain myself, which would involve talking more than I had in a week of coming to that table. Mostly I had sat and watched them and enjoyed the company.

"Let's say there's nothing after death." I let that hang. "No after life, no ghostness, just a whole lot of nothing. No consciousness. Your life is over and that's it."

"That's scary," Ry said.

"Is it death you fear? A moment of your life just like any other, except another moment doesn't come after it." I shook my head. "Wouldn't you cherish that moment, wouldn't you love it more than anything else? Because if that moment wasn’t there," I paused, "you'd have one moment less.

"Or is it the moment after? The moment you cease to be. The moment that you aren't there anymore. The moment that you’ll never open your eyes again. Isn't that what you fear? The sunrises you'll never see, the flowers you'll never smell, the snowballs you'll never throw, and the pizza you'll never eat. Isn't that what you fear the most? Life going on without you.

"They'll say, 'It's not the end of the world,' but it is. It is for you."

"Damn," Doom said. And the table was silent. Sometimes you say something so deep, so disturbing it fucks everything up. I had depressed all of them. "Now would someone pass me a piece of pizza before I die?" and by saying that I jumpstarted half a dozen conversations, which is impressive considering how few people there were.

I ate a pizza while wondering how they managed to hold so many conversations at once. I have trouble keeping track of one, they were all holding two or three.

ZOID

Monday, June 12, 2006 10:46 PM

RiveR6213 wrote:

Quote:
...You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

So, quit!

Quit being a "soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole".

Just quit it.

To those whom much has been given, much will be demanded. (Paraphrased, a la JFK, from Luke 12:48)

Who's forcing you to be a leech on the backside of humanity? You proclaim to be in control of your destiny, of what your personality is. So who is that powerful Svengali that's forcing you into such isolationist modes of thought, into a prison of your own design? It's only you.

You don't trust others, because they want to control you, or because they want to take advantage of your trusting nature. But it's only you that's screwing yourself over. ...That and your beloved (damned) possessions.

So, here's a place to start:
Wear (or purchase) the most unassuming clothing you can find. Buy a cheap pocketbook to put your ID in; carry no credit cards, money or other trinkets. Take off all your jewelry, perfume and makeup. Brush all the 'product' out of your hair.

Take a taxi or *gulp!* ride the bus to a homeless shelter, an orphanage, a battered women's shelter -- whatever suits your conscience. (i.e., Don't drive or have yourself driven in one of your automobiles.) These institutions are everywhere in this day and age, so don't say there's not one in your area. If not, jet to another city, then change into your cheap, unfashionable, ill-fitting disguise and read on.

When you get there, volunteer to help for the day. If they ask for your ID, show it to them; nobody will recognize you, regardless how famous you think you are. If you don't look like somebody who has recently bathed in mother's milk, you won't get a second glance.

The people you will meet in these places will shock you to your core. They will be 'poorly maintained': they may smell bad, have bad teeth, be malnourished, suffering from chemical dependence withdrawal symptoms (even the infants), have bruises and scars... They may look at you with distrust, fear, apathy, even outright hatred.

In other words, they are just like you.

They are made of flesh and blood, and have hearts and minds. Tend them even though they distrust, fear and hate you. Feed them. Comfort them. Ask for nothing -- not even a thank you -- in return. If they do thank you, if a child hugs you, accept it as though it were a blessing from God her/himself (because it is).

But the key is to do these things anonymously, not for recognition or as a publicity stunt, not as a public display of generosity. Just be a person, ordinary and unremarkable, doing things strictly for the benefit of people to whom Life has not been as kind as it has been to you.

Sometime during your day of labors, get the mailing address of the charity's administrative offices and later mail them an exorbitant sum of money, untraceable to you. Never claim it on your income tax, or tell anyone from your company or the media that you did it.

Repeat as necessary...

Eventually, this will change you into a person capable of (responsibly) caring about others, and capable of being (genuinely) cared about in return. How? Because persons in these circumstances cannot demand anything of anyone; they are living on the very edge of existence. They are the people marginalized by the greed of the wealthy, by those who connive to possess 200 times as much as they need to comfortably survive. Where did you think that money comes from? Do you think they just print up more whenever rich people decide they don't have enough? Or did you ever suspect that perhaps it comes out of the pockets of the poorest among us, the most benighted, out of the mouths of babes?

Just give it back. Give it all back, if you can stand it. Sounds to me like none of it's doing you any good, only harm. At least giving

THESOMNAMBULIST

Monday, June 12, 2006 10:48 PM

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:
I'm sitting here at my desk at work feeling really miserable because I now know that I hate my life. I mean really hate it. I hate this thing I’ve created…its so soulless. I hate this company I started. I hate the people. I hate coming in here and seeing their creepy little faces expecting me to make a decision. I hate their expectations of me. I hate that they change their attitudes around me and try to kiss ass. I hate the backbiting they do with each other. I hate my cars, and I hate my boats. I hate that people put on a fake face to me just because they know I have money at this company. They fucking French kiss my ass here to get ahead. I hate the stupid parties that I have to throw for these idiots here to make them happy and work harder. I hate the paperwork; GOD!!! I hate the paperwork! I hate the meetings. I hate it I hate it I hate I hate it!!!!

I wish I could just leave it all behind me. I feel like running away from it all. I wish I were poor and happy living in some hellhole somewhere, sharing a can of tuna with a person I love. I wish I could change my personality, and my race and be someone else. I hate being me. I’m so joyless, and boring. I’ve become what I hate the most. I’m this soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole. Is there an asshole gene? If there is I have it in spades.

You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

River

I keep thinking of you and what you've written. I've been struggling all night trying to find the words, the appropriate sentence that will have the words to soothe your querries, and each time I delete, close down the forum and sit down again to watch some TV. Then your posts come back to me and I find myself thinking of another way to possibly reply to your comments.

So here I am for the fifth, possibly sixth time, trying to construct a worthy reply. I'm not sure I'll do right even now but here goes....

River give yourself a break. If only for one night. Just one night when you don't think about all this stuff, all this vapour in random disarray. I couldn't agree more that life is a series of ups and downs. A Sisyphian struggle... But it needn't ALL be that way.

I'm somewhat sad to read your latest post about the life you've created and how much you hate it, but really why be so brutally analytical about your life? Why be so negative about what you've done. It's so easy to be negative about such things.

I could just as easily reduce my life to a series of failures: 35, no wife, no kids, no pension, short! Few friends, stays indoors talking on forums, don't own a house, can't own a house, can't fathom quadratic equations, can't get a book published, haven't advanced medicine or philosophical thought and have absolutely no grasp of the force!

You get my drift I'm sure. I'm just trying to establish the fact that you are being WAY, WAY to hard on yourself.

And for the record you're in no way faceless and boring where d'you get that from?! Have you seen the length of this thread, the variety of personallities at work here! It's fantastic! You've engaged the minds of several members, that has to count for something? No?

So ok you don't know the answers to life - none of us do, and therein lies the route of how we all wonderfully connect in this ever tumbling series of events, that have us laughing and crying to our graves...

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

LITTLEALBATROSS29

Monday, June 12, 2006 10:56 PM

River,

You remind me so much of myself sometimes.

Zoid has some very good points .Try listening.But as you know ,it won't be easy. It never is, never will be.

But you do have us . And that's something.

Bryce

I swallowed a bug.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, June 12, 2006 11:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
You know, after all these years I don't have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have.

I've not tried to change you mind or analyze you or any such thing. I've asked one question of you and when you didn't have an answer I didn't press it.

I bring this up to point out that I'm not interested in telling you how to live your life or be a better person.

But I do have something to say and I hope you'll think about it.

What you're doing obviously isn't working if that is true. You said you serve yourself so serve yourself.

If you haven't found a way to be happy then you've done a crappy job of serving yourself because you've accomplished nothing that actually helps you.

So if what you're doing now isn't working, and from what you said it isn't, change it.

What have you got to lose? Your sad little hill? Your spot at the top of the heap? Well neither of those is helping you right now, neither of those is serving you right now. So why not put them to work and try to get them to serve you, if they can't then that means they're failures.

Meaningless nothings in part of a life without a point.

Depressing perhaps, but I'm not always a ray of sunshine.

-

Enjoy yourself, the worst that can happen is you die a horrible painful long drawn out death, and that's not really that bad when you think about it.

Obviously you have to find out what makes you happy, but that's a self-serving action that I'm sure you can pull off if you put your mind to it.

You have nothing of value to lose, and stuff to gain.

It is possible that you might find joy in other people, it's possible you might not. But you don't need to change your personality to do it either way.

Charity takes only the selfish need to sleep well at night and feel good about yourself.

Love is when it hurts you for another to be hurt (ok so that's only a small part of it), so when you do things for them you're doing it for yourself.

I can't see your soul or anything like that, but I have a feeling you aren't so fucked up that you can't enjoy life. That's because anyone can.

If you are an asshole and you really can't change that then go on being an asshole, but remember to look out for your state of mind as well as the rest.

If at some point you need to hold back on being an ass I doubt it would too hard for you, to get where you are you must know how to compromise.

What you're doing isn't working so change it, and if anyone tries to stop you tell them fuck off.

If you can change yourself so you don't hate yourself that's great, but if you can't you can still find some joy, so do it. Only two things stand in your way, you who you don't like much, and the rest of the world, which can fuck itself.

Live life, because what you're doing now doesn't sound like living, it's rotting with a pulse.

I can't tell you what to do, I don't want to anyway, but do something.

Something different. Maybe something you'd never normally do, just something totally out of character. Or not. Whatever. Do something. If that doesn't work do something else.

We're all dying and you've got only so many heartbeats left, it's time you had some fun.

CHRISTHECYNIC

Monday, June 12, 2006 11:29 PM

I hope you don't feel like we're all acting like we're above you or something. Giving advice that may or may not be good, advice that conflicts.

I don't think I'm better than you and I don't think I can solve your problems just from reading a post on a forum.

I do care about you, I don't know why and I don't care why. I want to see you happy, even if you are as souless as you say.

It's a weakness really, but it's one I'm proud to have, and it's something I hope you'll think about that.

For whatever little it is worth we are here for you and we care about you. You're right, this isn't a thread about you, but it became one because the people here want to see you happy, that may not matter to you, it may not matter at all, but it's true and it matters to us.

Whatever you decide to do, even if it is nothing, we'll still be here.

I hope you try to change your life because there's no point in doing that which you hate, I think other people are trying too hard to get you to do what they think will help though.

By all means do out and do something good, an act of charity or kindness, see if it has any effect on you, see if you enjoy it in the least. But you don't need to do that, take a kayak or a hike, go to Florence (I love it there) just ditch everything for a day and watch your favorite movies.

Do anything that isn't part of what you hate to see if it will make you feel any better. Your life is up to you, as it should be, but I want to see you happy because I'm a selfish bastard who hates it when people I care about are down, and you're one of those people, so I hope so very much that you'll do something.

-

Sorry for two posts in a row, you know me by now, I just can't shut up.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
RiveR6213 wrote:
Quote:
...You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

So, quit!

Quit being a "soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole".

Just quit it.

To those whom much has been given, much will be demanded. (Paraphrased, a la JFK, from Luke 12:48)

Who's forcing you to be a leech on the backside of humanity? You proclaim to be in control of your destiny, of what your personality is. So who is that powerful Svengali that's forcing you into such isolationist modes of thought, into a prison of your own design? It's only you.

You don't trust others, because they want to control you, or because they want to take advantage of your trusting nature. But it's only you that's screwing yourself over. ...That and your beloved (damned) possessions.

So, here's a place to start:
Wear (or purchase) the most unassuming clothing you can find. Buy a cheap pocketbook to put your ID in; carry no credit cards, money or other trinkets. Take off all your jewelry, perfume and makeup. Brush all the 'product' out of your hair.

Take a taxi or *gulp!* ride the bus to a homeless shelter, an orphanage, a battered women's shelter -- whatever suits your conscience. (i.e., Don't drive or have yourself driven in one of your automobiles.) These institutions are everywhere in this day and age, so don't say there's not one in your area. If not, jet to another city, then change into your cheap, unfashionable, ill-fitting disguise and read on.

When you get there, volunteer to help for the day. If they ask for your ID, show it to them; nobody will recognize you, regardless how famous you think you are. If you don't look like somebody who has recently bathed in mother's milk, you won't get a second glance.

The people you will meet in these places will shock you to your core. They will be 'poorly maintained': they may smell bad, have bad teeth, be malnourished, suffering from chemical dependence withdrawal symptoms (even the infants), have bruises and scars... They may look at you with distrust, fear, apathy, even outright hatred.

In other words, they are just like you.

They are made of flesh and blood, and have hearts and minds. Tend them even though they distrust, fear and hate you. Feed them. Comfort them. Ask for nothing -- not even a thank you -- in return. If they do thank you, if a child hugs you, accept it as though it were a blessing from God her/himself (because it is).

But the key is to do these things anonymously, not for recognition or as a publicity stunt, not as a public display of generosity. Just be a person, ordinary and unremarkable, doing things strictly for the benefit of people to whom Life has not been as kind as it has been to you.

Sometime during your day of labors, get the mailing address of the charity's administrative offices and later mail them an exorbitant sum of money, untraceable to you. Never claim it on your income tax, or tell anyone from your company or the media that you did it.

Repeat as necessary...

Eventually, this will change you into a person capable of (responsibly) caring about others, and capable of being (genuinely) cared about in return. How? Because persons in these circumstances cannot demand anything of anyone; they are living on the very edge of existence. They are the people marginalized by the greed of the wealthy, by those who connive to possess 200 times as much as they need to comfortably survive. Where did you think that money comes from? Do you think they just print up more whenever rich people decide they don't have enough? Or did you ever suspect that perhaps it comes out of the pockets of the poorest among us, the most benighted, out of the mouths of babes?

Just give it back. Give it all back, if you can stand it. Sounds to me like none of it's doing you

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NUCLEARDAY

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:
I lost my father a year and a half ago at Christmas, Dec. 26th to be exact. He died on his Mother's birthday and I told him as he slipped away from me that he was so good to wait until the day AFTER Christmas. I sat with my Father all night long and waited with him for death. I was there when he drew his last breath. He was the bravest man I knew and he faced death with dignity and strength no different than I'd come to know him for. I cried, I cried plenty. I was also thankful that I knew him and he loved me and I loved him. I was grateful for all the years that we were so close.
I was grateful for the pain. I was so much more blessed by the love over the years.. that the pain was well worth it.

I expect to have some more death in my life before it's my turn. It will be horribly painful, but only because I was so close to those who I will lose that I will miss them, and mourn them. And rightfully so. I am alive and I love, therefore I will suffer. I'm glad it's so. I am not so afraid of my own personal pain, that I can't know love and enjoy it.

The greatest pain I can think of is to not have love of others and they of you.

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

Thanks for that FollowMal, summed up my own feelings on the subject alot more eloquently than I could have :)

Oddly, I also lost my father around Christmas time. My mother was out of state visiting her relatives, leaving my two siblings and my Dad in the house alone. He was home from work recovering from back surgery, and I was on break from school, so we got to spend some quality time together before he passed.

Without getting into long and boring details, I was alone in the house with him when he had his heart attack. It was totally out of the blue, and something none of us were expecting. I had the rather unwelcome duty of calling 911, attempting CPR, waking my mom up with a long-distance phone call, waiting for the ambulance to arrive and explaining the situation to my brother since he showed up just as the ambulance was pulling in. My sister, luckily, slept through the entire fiasco, and I got to stay up all night waiting for her to wake up so I could break the news to her, which was the hardest part by far. :P

That was December 20, 1999. He was pronounced DOA at the hospital. I think we've all managed to move on to some degree, but it still gets to me when I dwell on it. I don't grieve for my father, but for myself and all the time we've missed out on these past years. Even now I'll catch myself coming across something I think he'd be interested in, and have one of those "oh, yeah, he's dead" moments :) He's the one who hooked me on sci-fi, and games, etc. (I think he would've been quite a loyal Browncoat were he still around :)

And... well, this is running quite long. Just felt since everyone else was sharing that I'd throw in my own views :) I think it's certainly worth the pain in losing someone if that's the price of it all. It was a gift that I knew my Father like I did, and the last gift he gave me was in dying; 'cause nothing's ever been all that difficult after that night :) Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but this one is mine :P

________________________________________________
You can take my Browncoat when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

RIVER6213

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:
I'm sitting here at my desk at work feeling really miserable because I now know that I hate my life. I mean really hate it. I hate this thing I’ve created…its so soulless. I hate this company I started. I hate the people. I hate coming in here and seeing their creepy little faces expecting me to make a decision. I hate their expectations of me. I hate that they change their attitudes around me and try to kiss ass. I hate the backbiting they do with each other. I hate my cars, and I hate my boats. I hate that people put on a fake face to me just because they know I have money at this company. They fucking French kiss my ass here to get ahead. I hate the stupid parties that I have to throw for these idiots here to make them happy and work harder. I hate the paperwork; GOD!!! I hate the paperwork! I hate the meetings. I hate it I hate it I hate I hate it!!!!

I wish I could just leave it all behind me. I feel like running away from it all. I wish I were poor and happy living in some hellhole somewhere, sharing a can of tuna with a person I love. I wish I could change my personality, and my race and be someone else. I hate being me. I’m so joyless, and boring. I’ve become what I hate the most. I’m this soulless, money grubbing, full of myself, white privileged asshole. Is there an asshole gene? If there is I have it in spades.

You know, after all these years I don’t have a clue how to live a life and be happy; I never have. I made it to the top of the heap in these parts and what am I? A Sad Little Queen on a Sad Little Hill.

River

I keep thinking of you and what you've written. I've been struggling all night trying to find the words, the appropriate sentence that will have the words to soothe your querries, and each time I delete, close down the forum and sit down again to watch some TV. Then your posts come back to me and I find myself thinking of another way to possibly reply to your comments.

So here I am for the fifth, possibly sixth time, trying to construct a worthy reply. I'm not sure I'll do right even now but here goes....

River give yourself a break. If only for one night. Just one night when you don't think about all this stuff, all this vapour in random disarray. I couldn't agree more that life is a series of ups and downs. A Sisyphian struggle... But it needn't ALL be that way.

I'm somewhat sad to read your latest post about the life you've created and how much you hate it, but really why be so brutally analytical about your life? Why be so negative about what you've done. It's so easy to be negative about such things.

I could just as easily reduce my life to a series of failures: 35, no wife, no kids, no pension, short! Few friends, stays indoors talking on forums, don't own a house, can't own a house, can't fathom quadratic equations, can't get a book published, haven't advanced medicine or philosophical thought and have absolutely no grasp of the force!

You get my drift I'm sure. I'm just trying to establish the fact that you are being WAY, WAY to hard on yourself.

And for the record you're in no way faceless and boring where d'you get that from?! Have you seen the length of this thread, the variety of personallities at work here! It's fantastic! You've engaged the minds of several members, that has to count for something? No?

So ok you don't know the answers to life - none of us do, and therein lies the route of how we all wonderfully connect in this ever tumbling series of events, that have us laughing and crying to our graves...

The
Somnambulist

The
Somnambulist,

No, you are right. The people on this board are great. You guys certainly don't take any crap from me, and that's saying plenty. Okay, okay!! I flew off the handle! I lost my Vulcan control, or had too much caffeine today.

I have to take things seriously though. Things are set up in this company where I have my hands involved in everything. I just can't leave, I

RIVER6213

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FromtheDark:
I dont grieve so much any more, i get the whole we are born most of us live then we die but yeah i spill a few tears for the dead only coz i know im not going to see them for a while but then there is nothing.
But i must admit when only a few months ago six teens around my age were wiped out when a car ran into them i was taken back for a bit longer then when i lose people whom i love.

But RiveR213 i agree humans suck i have more compassion for animals than anything else.

If at first you dont succeed, you wont be skydiving again

I shed tears when a favorite character dies on a TV show. I cried when Buffy sacrificed herself for her sister and humanity during the season 5 finale of BTVS.

Isnt it amazing how we can cry over animals and fictitious characters easier than real human beings?

River

CHRISTHECYNIC

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I have to take things seriously though. Things are set up in this company where I have my hands involved in everything. I just can't leave, I would love too but I can’t at this moment in time. I think I will be able to take a year off starting this October if everything goes right and then I can take the time to rediscover people and myself, but let me tell you, this job is killing me.

You don't have to wait till then to find yourself.

Start small and don't put it off.

FOLLOWMAL

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 2:08 AM

Nuclearday...

I am grateful we both had Fathers who were so connected with us and that we were each able to do the things that needed done. You are right you know.. nothing is ever so hard as that.

We changed as we were supposed to.

Thank you and *hugs*

"You hold. Hold 'til I get back." Mal

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:18 AM

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
You want to be a good person? Then stop fantasizing about it and be a good person. No one's stopping you but that "Sad Little Queen" in the mirror.

He is Zoid. He is good. Listen to him. We all should.

Sell the company and retire, then help people. I you had died last time it all would belong to friends of Bush now anyway. Do something completly scary and unprecedented. Re-make yourself.

Best regards, Chrisisall, a cyber-friend

RIVER6213

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 5:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
You want to be a good person? Then stop fantasizing about it and be a good person. No one's stopping you but that "Sad Little Queen" in the mirror.

He is Zoid. He is good. Listen to him. We all should.

Sell the company and retire, then help people. I you had died last time it all would belong to friends of Bush now anyway. Do something completly scary and unprecedented. Re-make yourself.

Best regards, Chrisisall, a cyber-friend

It's good advice, but it is not as easy as that, though I appreciate the advice and I know its right. I can't just sell off this thing. It’s very complicated and could involve courts, and other sub industries and a lot of other annoyances that could drag on for years, and this sort of thing could lead to a no vote of confidence which is a death sentence in my line of work. I don’t need that headache. There would be no way to justify it, and no one gives a damn about the human element. I’ll just have to find another way.

If this were a movie or a poorly written novel, I would be a Super villain who wanted to be transformed back into a human with feelings, but the catch is, I have to lose my super powers in the process that makes me a super villain. Crazy world we live in.

I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their stories and opinions regarding death and how you deal with and handle it. Crazy stuff, some of what I read here about other people's experiences are hard to comprehend, and I know I could never go through, and survive the experiences that they had with the demise(that spelled right?) of the ones they love.

Example: Zoid's band member, his father, and his grandfather deaths, and all that he had to go through to come to terms with them.

Shadowfly, who, along with his family saw his father off, and has hopes that when he's on his way out, he has the ones who love him the most to be there to send him on his way.

Sameertia, A person who understands the cycle of life, and understands the transformation of death. A person who believes that grief is healthy.

Mima, who attempted to connect with me because she/he sees a person with some serious, deep seated, emotional issues.

Pinballwizard for his sharing of his great grandmother's death, and also for his 1st experience at comprehending what death really means.

And for Arcadia's hair-raising story of grand mother dying at the age of 10 and at the age of 16 she loses yet another friend during car surfing. At 18 she loses another friend who shoots herself twice in the chest, and then most recently this year, she loses an Aunt. Heavy stuff.

Sisterbettyx whose family treats death like a celebration. This is a new one for me.

Christhecynic, who avoids death like the plague and who believes that death has a habit of coming at the wrong time.

Copilot who watched her grandfather die, and had kind words for him at his funeral.

To JTSKIER12)) who believes that death is unnatural.

Twoshells, who gets introspective and then moves on rather than wallow in depression. He believes that memory is what counts.

To FutureMrsFillion who doesn’t fall apart during emergencies, and does not act the fool, but death has a habit of affecting her a long time. Love does not shut off like a light switch with this one.
And to all the others who have shared their mind numbing stories and experiences:
FollowMal
Chrismoorhed
Chrisisall
Thesomnabulist
Mick91
MicJwlch
Jigman
Tristan
Windie
Reynoldfan34
Littlealbatross29
Nuclearday

Thank you all for being part of this board, and part of this thread. Good answers and good thoughts to the question I put forth.

Long winded River

RIVER6213

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 6:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by windie:
Well river6213, you have managed to pull me in again, very interesting thread.

I think I am more like you than I would really like to be. Ok not as open as you appear to be now, but hey I am a big believer in sh!t happens.

As for the whole death thing I have seen enough for me not to even think about it anymore. It is just what happens, people can bitch and wine all they like, you're still getting a good bite of death eventually. There is nothing you can do about it doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, you are going to get there.

Human's in general tend to think that they are here for a special purpose, well we are not. There is a big cycle that goes something like you're born, you do a bit, then you get off the bus and give someone else a go. It's as simple as that, I don't even believe that you have much choice in how it is going to be unless you are born into money. Personally I am glad I wasn't I like the uncertainty that goes along with having just enough. It would take the fun out of life if I could just say I want that one and that one, oh and that one as well.

But as for death who cares. I don't and when I am gone don't grieve, just have a good party and get on with your existance. I would much rather be the cause of a damn good hangover that you won't forget in a while than be cried about.

Why have they taken the sky from ME

I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me...I've got my own issues I don't need yours.

River

WINDIE

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me...I've got my own issues I don't need yours.

River

Glad to see you are back to your normal self, striking out at anyone who may try to say anything positive about you. Your right the topic of the thread did strike a cord with me, not going to tell you why.

We all know that you have had issue's and we all know that you do not want anyone else's. But if you start this type of thread it will get answered by all types of people be they weak or strong. Just live with it, the majority of us neither give a sh!t or want anything from you except maybe the occasional nugget of information supplied by yours and other peoples posts.

Keep posting and people will keep reading it's what we do on here after all.

Why have they taken the sky from ME

ONTHEDRIFT

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Reynoldsfan34:
Reading these posts I have to come to the conclusion that something in this society has shut off so many young people from caring, from their emotions and from love. I am 55, and I am grieving very much, for my Mother died about 2 months ago. Yes, she was in bad shape and in many ways it is a relief, I had taken care of her for 6 years, and the last ones over 2 years 24/7. She was 89 years old, I am an only child. And yet, I miss what there was of her, her smile, telling her I loved her, the small things she might be able to still enjoy. I loved her more then words can say and while it might be better for her now, I am extremely saddened. I changed her, fed her, kept her alive. I am from a somewhat better time, I think. These days, what with illegal immoral wars, and all people can think about is themselves, and not acknowledge that and the other evils going on around them, and the shallow celebrity culture, and maybe so many not having a close attachment to someone, well, it is very sad. I miss my mom, always will, and did the best I could for her. She was a wonderful person, when she was herself, and sacrificed for me and my mostly ill father. I am honored that I took care of her, and will miss and love her till I am no more. I think it is sad so many here are so crass and flip about it,, it shows me sad things about today's world.

I stand between the Candle and the Star. Between the Darkness and the light.

Reynoldsfan34, You should feel honored that you took care of your Mom. That's a wonderful testimony of your love, a great gift to give someone. I got very disheartened after reading some of the posts, I try to have hope for the future and agree it seems like something's gone terrible wrong, but try to have hope. I am from a younger generation and I do understand what you're saying. I helped take care of my Grandpa, and am still mourning his loss. The fact that we grieve makes us human, it shows our capacity to love each other. Hang in there Reynoldsfan34, FollowMal and the others who have shared their stories, and take comfort in knowing there are others who empathize with your experiences.

RIVER6213

Tuesday, June 13, 2006 3:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by windie:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me.

River

Glad to see you are back to your normal self, striking out at anyone who may try to say anything positive about you.

Sorry Windie,

Actually that last post of mine to you did seem like it was hostile, but it wasnt meant to be that way. I thought I was being funny, but having looked at it again, it does look hostile and I didnt mean to come off that way. Sorry.

River

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DANTE144

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 7:21 AM

not well.

still trying to figure it out.

I guess I just have faith that God will get me over this hump. I may not feel good now but around the bend is a better day. Even if I can't see it today.

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic

WINDIE

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 7:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Quote:
Originally posted by windie:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don't really see myself sitting about and thinking 'how can I drag Windie into a topic?' I make these topics up out of personal interest and am interested in other people's opinions...nothing more. You joined this thread because it struck a chord in you and you felt like you had something to say, so don't blame your choice on me.

River

Glad to see you are back to your normal self, striking out at anyone who may try to say anything positive about you.

Sorry Windie,

Actually that last post of mine to you did seem like it was hostile, but it wasnt meant to be that way. I thought I was being funny, but having looked at it again, it does look hostile and I didnt mean to come off that way. Sorry.

River

No problem River, it says a lot about you that you felt the need to apologize. There was really no need as there was no offence taken, it takes a great deal to get my back up and a few words generally doesn't do it.

As I said to you once before I am more of a reader than a poster, I just like reading other peoples points of view and every now and then chipping in with something.

Thanks again for your posts past and present I generally find them interesting and succinct and disturbingly similar to my own point of view.

Windie

Why have they taken the sky from ME

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RIVER6213

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 7:52 AM

Look, I want to destroy the world, and myself, but I don't want to be rude about it. I guess that sort of thinking is my way, as strange as it may sound.

River

RIVER6213

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 7:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dante144:
not well.

still trying to figure it out.

I guess I just have faith that God will get me over this hump. I may not feel good now but around the bend is a better day. Even if I can't see it today.

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic

What's wrong with you? You dying?

River

DANTE144

Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:52 AM

My Mom died just recently.

"Jesus saves, everyone else takes damage" -tee shirt some girl was wearing at Megacon.

http://dantedreams.com <-my webcomic

MINIME

Saturday, June 24, 2006 9:47 AM

I'm really sorry for your loss.

AGATSU

Saturday, June 24, 2006 10:19 AM

Sorry to hear that, Dante - when my granny died last year, it kinda dawned on me for the first time that people aren't gonna be around forever, and made me realize that my parents aren't immortal, either. Scares the hell out of me.
I can still not even guess how you feel now, though. Maybe it soothes you a bit that death is far worse for those left behind than for the dead.
Knowing that helped me cope with my granny's death a great deal.

Proud member of the FFF.net Event Team
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