Do you support our current president?
POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 21, 2021 17:33
VIEWED: 12746
PAGE 1 of 2
Imagine a man traveling to an exotic destination to snorkel with his family. When he arrives at the airport, he remembers he forgot the underwater camera he just bought for the trip. Crap. He calls his brother to pretty please bring the camera to him at the airport. He'll be outside the Departures area waiting. But please hurry, because his flight leaves in 60 minutes and it takes 60 minutes to get to the aiport!
The brother rushes through traffic like a madman. He finds the man 15 minutes before flight time. He hands him the camera, after which the man dashes off to catch his flight. The brother pulls up at a nearby gas station to fill up, only to be surrounded by custom agents.
"Why were you speeding towards the airport?"
"What kind of package were you handing over?"
"Are you an American citizen? How long have you been a citizen?"
"Do you belong to any terrorist organizations?"
"Do you support our current president?"
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This is a true story that just happened to a relative 2 days ago. While I applaud the vigilance of these customs agents in investigating suspicious activity, there is one thing that bothers me.
"Do you support our current president?"
Since when did support of a current president become a gauge or indicator of possible crime? In a situation like this, is it acceptable for the "suspect" to answer no? If you answer no, do you end up at Guantanamo?
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You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles A. Beard
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Why? Is he likely to fall over?
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This surprises you at all ?
Look...
http://www.keepandbeararms.com /images/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg
http://www.keepandbeararms.com /images/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg
(spaced to avoid direct image linking)
ANY resistance to the established order, even something so mundane as knowing your Constitutional Rights or even asking WHY you were stopped is enough.
And it's been that way for a lot longer than most folk realize, it's just that the general public kept shouting down the folks trying to bring it to their attention while handing over more and more of our rights, freedoms and resources, that the bastards don't feel the need to hide it anymore.
And it goes back more than one or two presidents, too, so it's not a party issue at all.
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/05/13/you-are-the-homegrown-terro
rist-threat/
Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail To The Chief",
oh, they point the cannon at YOU, Lord.
-CCR, Fortunate Son.
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I'm skeptical the story actually happened as it was told. First of all, how would the agents know the brother was " speeding toward the airport " ? Yes, there are traffic cams on most major city interstates, they're just simply not used to track real time speeders and the like. The police might know if he was speeding, but not the agents inside the airport. And of course, if the police knew, they'd have acted right away to track him down, they wouldn't hold back on a random car driving fast to see how things play out.
The other questions are conceivable, but I've got the feeling this is more of an internet urban legend than anything.
qIt is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
ANY resistance to the established order, even something so mundane as knowing your Constitutional Rights or even asking WHY you were stopped is enough.
Again, I must call B.S.. The cops often ask YOU why you think they stopped you. If they ask the question, it's only logical to assume you could ask the same question back to them. Asking them why you were stopped isn't an issue, it just isn't.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:1. Questions are asked as much to understand the mindset of the suspect or person of interest - how a person answers this question is more important then the answer. For instance, if you acted as if you were afraid to answer such a question or became agitated that the question was asked, it might say something about your mindset.
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Since when did support of a current president become a gauge or indicator of possible crime? In a situation like this, is it acceptable for the "suspect" to answer no? If you answer no, do you end up at Guantanamo?
2. Obviously.
3. No. There is no one in Guantanamo for not supporting the current administration.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
"Do you support our current president?"
Since when did support of a current president become a gauge or indicator of possible crime? In a situation like this, is it acceptable for the "suspect" to answer no? If you answer no, do you end up at Guantanamo?
--------------------------
Most of America didn't support Bill Clinton, as he never got over 50% of the popular vote. Seems like an odd thing to ask, regardless.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Asking them why you were stopped isn't an issue, it just isn't.
I call bullshit.
How many folks wind up arrested for resisting arrest, which amounts to being yanked into custody for no particular reason or charge ?
It's well known, indisputable fact that if you in any way try to express or enforce your rights when in communication with a Law Enforcement Officer, they will more often than not react quite nastily, anything from petty intimidation up to outright murder, can, have and will.
Your word, especially in light of your utterly laughable credibility, telling me "it just isn't" falls flat in the deluge of evidence to the contrary which can be provided in just mere minutes of research.
Case Examples:
"I don't wish to discuss my personal life with you, officer."
Results in...
""If you don't stop running your mouth, we're going to find a reason to lock you up tonight."
And
"Can't I park here? It's a commuter lot right?"
Results in...
"Do you wanna try me young boy? Do you want to try me tonight young boy?
Do you want to go to jail for some fucking reason I come up with?
Do you wanna see who knows the law better, me or you. My experience compared to your young ass. Huh? Don't ever get smart mouthed with a cop again. I show you what a cop does. Do you understand me?
Try and talk back -- Talk back to me again. I bet I could say you resisted arrest or something. You want to come up with something? I come up with nine things. Do you wanna try something?"
And you try to shovel that "it just isn't" at me ?
No, I do not think so.
It shouldn't be, but it IS, with reams of documented evidence to prove it.
Quote:
it might say something about your mindset.
And the mindset that it's none of their fucking business without a warrant is plenty enough to get them one - or how bout refusing to let them root through your stuff being probable cause for a search ?
That catch-22, napoleonic, guilty till proven innocent shit has subverted the intent of our laws to make it exactly the opposite, and giving them a free pass is bullshit.
Oh, and Clinton was every bit as much a rights violating prick, THAT fact is not whatsoever in doubt either, so shove your partisan shill crap and bust caps on the issue for once, willya ?
-F
*
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/15/1522.asp
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1961.asp
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Quote:You’re free to not answer the question. In fact it’s your right.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And the mindset that it's none of their fucking business without a warrant is plenty enough to get them one - or how bout refusing to let them root through your stuff being probable cause for a search ?
That catch-22, napoleonic, guilty till proven innocent shit has subverted the intent of our laws to make it exactly the opposite, and giving them a free pass is bullshit.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:Quote:
Asking them why you were stopped isn't an issue, it just isn't.
I call bullshit....
I'll second that. I got stories, but it's not even worth getting into. I just think it's funny watching the usual authoritarian sycophants come out of the woodwork to defend this shit. Are you guys into the kinky whips and chains stuff too?
Seriously, how much fascist cock will you swallow before you gag???
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Auraptor,
No, this is not an urban legend. I got a first hand account from the brother who was detained for half an hour.
They were asking why he was speeding towards the terminal (maybe they said terminal and not "airport"). The point is, they have cams all over the airport and speeding through the airport is suspicious. Then when the driver stops to hand over a package to a passenger, then drives off again, it is suspicious enough for them to detain the driver to investigate. They only let him go after they got a call confirming that the passenger cleared airport security.
I just found it a bit creepy that they would ask about support for the current president. Reminds me of when I lived in military dictatorships.
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Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison.
--Henry David Thoreau
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Quote:Someone asks you a question, and you think they’re trying to shove their dick in your mouth. You are so full of shit. Governments have created policies to enslaves whole nations or exterminate whole peoples, yet you find yourself in the unique position of a state the might ask you a question, and you through a fit. The lack of perspective you have makes it impossible to ever take you seriously. You shoot your mouth off with no fathomable clue what you’re talking about.
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'll second that. I got stories, but it's not even worth getting into. I just think it's funny watching the usual authoritarian sycophants come out of the woodwork to defend this shit. Are you guys into the kinky whips and chains stuff too?
Seriously, how much fascist cock will you swallow before you gag???
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I know people who have experienced this type of questioning before. I've just never heard of any law enforcement throwing in a question about supporting our current president. That was new to me. Not really surprising, just bothersome that it is probably going to be routine, if not routine already--and that there are people on this board who think it is perfectly ok.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
"Do you wanna try me young boy?
It bothers me that there are apparently a lot of people who like sucking fascist cock in this country. (Thanks to Sarge for that image.)
--------------------------
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this.
--Bertrand Russell
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Oh, it’s far worse then you think. There are all kinds of people who have no problem at all with being asked questions. What kind of society do we live in when someone can be asked a question??!! It’s fascist, I say, fascist!!!!
Fascism n. A political philosophy in which questions are sometimes asked.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:\
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Auraptor,
No, this is not an urban legend. I got a first hand account from the brother who was detained for half an hour.
They were asking why he was speeding towards the terminal (maybe they said terminal and not "airport"). The point is, they have cams all over the airport and speeding through the airport is suspicious. Then when the driver stops to hand over a package to a passenger, then drives off again, it is suspicious enough for them to detain the driver to investigate. They only let him go after they got a call confirming that the passenger cleared airport security.
I just found it a bit creepy that they would ask about support for the current president. Reminds me of when I lived in military dictatorships.
--------------------------
[
I find it hard to buy that they'd ID a car coming in to the area at a high rate of speed, let the driver park/ pull over, what ever....long enough to pass off a package, and then drive away w/ out detaining said driver on the spot.
I also find it odd to ask about supporting the President. Maybe the officer/ agent saw a bumper sticker or something which made him think of it. Who knows. Might be he was just on some power trip, and just wanted to F w/ your friend, whom ever.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
"Why were you speeding towards the airport?"
"What kind of package were you handing over?"
"Are you an American citizen? How long have you been a citizen?"
"Do you belong to any terrorist organizations?"
"Do you support our current president?"
These are the type of questions that good security services use to "profile" for potential threats. The questions individually aren't to meaningful, but as a whole they do tell quite a bit about the person answering them. For example, if the driver has a NASCAR sticker on his rear window and the cop asks "Why were you speeding towards the airport?", the cop would expect the driver to take great pride in their rate of speed to the airport. This somewhat confirms to the cop that the person and the car go together. If the cop then asks the NASCAR fan "Do you support our current president?", and the driver looks at him in confusion and then asks "who is the current President", this confirms to the cop that the person truly is a NASCAR fan.
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It's really strange that some people - like Finn - think it's ok if police ask political affiliation questions.
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Oh, I think it's "ok" if police ask any question they want. It doesn't mean I'm going to answer every question they ask, but they can certainly ask it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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When you refuse to answer the questions they ask you're refusing to comply with the reasonable request of an officer and they can tase you. 
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:I hope so. My lawyer will be able to get me a lot of money for my new car.
Originally posted by rue:
When you refuse to answer the questions they ask you're refusing to comply with the reasonable request of an officer and they can tase you.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Back to the original question - Do I support our current president?
No.
MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."
http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast
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Although one of his biggest mistakes was holding over that Democrap appointed Pineta as Transportation Sec - who has created all of the bad parts of TSA and Travel - I do still support the President (this is 2008, next year I will not). Imagining how much worse it would be with algore or Swiftboat Kerry brings on nightmares.
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Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
"Do you support our current president?"
Besides the fact that this whole story is a load of crap, the question is relevant not because of the question...but for the answer.
Kinda like when a cop asks you off the bat if you know why you've been pulled over. There are questions whose specific intent is to get some kind of confession or admission or to lead to follow up questions.
Best way to answer: Do you know why I pulled you over? "Yes." or "No." or "Why no Officer, is there something wrong?"
Do you support the President? "Yes." or "No." or "I don't understand the question."
That said, if someone were to rush to the airport, run inside, and hand someone a package and then leave just as quickly...I think we'd want to know a couple more details. Thats good security. But this story is crap cause Customs Agents lack the authority to operate in the manner you described.
Also, police have the right to ask anyone any question anytime if they see you at the gas station or on the street. Its called a consensual encounter. Its consensual...you can say nothing, walk away, or stop and talk all friendly like. Now if they want to detain you they need reasonable suspicion based upon reasonable articulable facts.
Based upon the made up story you gave us...well, in made up stories we can make up answers, and in this case my made up legal opinion is that they could not only pretend to detain the alleged man they could shoot him if he does not support the President (with imaginary bullets).
H
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Quote:
It's well known, indisputable fact that if you in any way try to express or enforce your rights when in communication with a Law Enforcement Officer, they will more often than not react quite nastily, anything from petty intimidation up to outright murder, can, have and will.
True. I have a couple friends who are cops, and they've told me point blank that their philosophy on this kind of thing is:
"You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."
In other words, give us any shit at all, and you're going downtown, either for resisting arrest or for disorderly conduct.
Of course, no cop will ever admit this kind of thing in front of a camera or a jury...
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock
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I’m sure you’re friends were talking about something else, or maybe they’re just assholes, but I’ve never in my life encountered an officer who was ever anything but polite and lenient. And THAT is actually how they taught to be - not this paranoid fascist fantasy that Frem has invented. In fact, just the other day, I was at the gas station, when an officer came in with a woman who was visibly drunk. The officer told her that if he catches her driving drunk again he’s going to take her to jail, and then informed the attended of the gas station, who was evidently an acquaintance of the drunk woman, that he had called a friend of hers to come pick her up. Now bearing in mind, that in this state, the police are required to take you to jail if they pull you over drunk, this officer was extremely forgiving and polite - and the truth is that this is the rule, not the exception.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
this is the rule, not the exception.
Again, I call BS, the evidence is wholly against that perception.
You MIGHT get that in a small town or district, but measured across the board the only dependable factor is abusive behavior, and the only noteable difference is the degree.
http://www.aele.org/losbeyond2000.html
"This year saw, for the first time ever, a United States Supreme Court opinion in which four justices of the Court opined that some citizens might well be justified in their belief that fleeing from an approaching police officer may be the best thing to do, whether innocent or guilty."
Oh, and mikey ?
Nowadays they don't even have to take you downtown to rough you up for a little "street justice" - that's what tasers are for, right ?
Here's the incident that started my distaste for the damned things in the hands of the police, btw...
Should anyone care to know what set me off about it in the first place.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-06-28/news/death-by-electrocutione
r/print
"Anderson fired his Taser stun gun into Graff's bare chest from close range and held the trigger for 84 uninterrupted seconds as it discharged 50,000 volts of electricity into the man."
Paranoid fantasy, eh ?
Tell that to Graffs family.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:Yep. I can cherry pick events or take things out of context and claim that defines the whole system as well as anyone else, but in the end, I’ve never met a police officer who didn’t treat me and others with as much or more respect then was deserved. Never. In my life.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Paranoid fantasy, eh ?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Given the pathetic credibility you have after repeatedly lying to us around here, I rather doubt you'll get anyone to believe you on that.
Especially since no one HAS to cherrypick, in fact, you have to do that to get examples of where an interaction with a LEO has *not* gone nasty.
You're arguing, once again, in the face of mountains of evidence proving just the opposite of what you are trying to tell folk, which works about as well as tryin to tell em the earth is flat, and with about the same end results.
And while the behavior of the force in general over the past twelve years has indeed degenerated, in part due to militarization of the force - the sad fact is that they have prettymuch *always* behaved like this, it's just that by turning their own surveillence society against them in our technological age, they're finally getting CAUGHT at it, is all.
And in my eyes that's progress, but it's not so easy to rectify the problem when folks still deny passionately it exists.
Abusive behavior is the rule, not the exception, and I for one would like to change that, instead of denying the problem while things get worse.
Again, all I really want is for them to do their job with a minimum of waste, abuse and stupidity, and I do NOT think that is too much to ask of them.
-F
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Quote:The more likely scenario is that increases in surveillance devices, both those used by the police and those held by others, in recent years has allowed for isolated incidences to draw attention disproportionate with their nature. Then paranoid opportunist jump on these images to claim they are the rule, but in the end, I have never IN MY LIFE ever encountered an officer like you claim they are. I have no doubt they exist, but in what proportion? Is it just coincidence that every officer I have ever met was polite and/or lenient? Have I, by mistake, just happened upon the only good officers in the country? No, I think it’s more likely the police officer just simply aren’t the monsters you portray them as. And of course, anyone who has listened to your long tirades on the evils of the state and your Marxist utopia of an anarchic society would know that you have an ideological incentive to portray the police the way you do.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And while the behavior of the force in general over the past twelve years has indeed degenerated, in part due to militarization of the force - the sad fact is that they have prettymuch *always* behaved like this, it's just that by turning their own surveillence society against them in our technological age, they're finally getting CAUGHT at it, is all.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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You see, that argument might have worked but for a couple reasons.
First, there's a big credibility gap here - you got none, you've lied, repeatedly, been caught lying, denied it, and lied some more, and you almost never offer proof of any of your claims, the few times you have it's been shot to pieces immediately.
If I am offering unsupported opinion, I tell you up front, unless I feel it's bloody obvious, and if I feel proof or examples are necessary they get included - and if you ever even bothered (your own statements prove you don't, given the content of some previous examples and links, so don't bother with more lies) to read them instead of dismissing without a thought or glance anything that might not agree with how you wanna view the world, you might know where I am coming from.
But you can't even get your bashes right, since I am neither a Marxist, nor a Utopian in principle or practice, but a Kropotkinist in principle, and an incremental minimalist* in practice.
You are also missing the general behavioral bents that are so pointedly obvious even those who believe in the utility and function of police departments are pissed off, the conduct of the FOP, Police Unions and departments and their thin blue line covering up for instead of exposing abusive officers - were things actually as you perceive them, they would be first in line to scourge these "bad apples" from the ranks, but they are not, which shows an intentional complicity in their behavior.
That whole few bad apples and isolated incidents bullshit falls flat every single time an officer who violates the law is held to a LOWER standard than us mere citizens, instead of a higher one as they should be - it creates a class division that feeds into an "us and them" mentality that is realistically and psychologically impossible to NOT happen when the same rules don't apply to both classes.
You give a person a gun, power over others and then insulate them from the negative consqeuences of their actions, this behavior becomes inevitable, it's that very lack of consequences that feeds it, and rather than calling for an abusive officers head, the police unions, FOP, and related orgs act in a concerted fashion to conceal, play down or justify that behavior, all the while playing up how "dangerous" (which it ain't we proved that a while ago) the job is and going for the sympathy-beg.
This places them at the same level as a mafia protection racket, in my eyes, for as much as it costs to maintain and operate a police department, we should be getting a lot more for the money - and we'd do well to put that money into training instead of shiny new toys, if you ask me.
I think police officers should be held to, and suject to, every single little nitpick law and regulation we are, with MORE severe consequences for violation than any non police officer - and I very, very specifically include weapons laws in that, and as well any fine levied against a department or it's personnel for misconduct should come directly out of their salaries.
And a civilian review board drawn from the population they are serving to review any use of force or misconduct allegations, let the community decide whether they are being served or abused.
And while these measures all make sense, all have merit - tell me, what exactly is blockading them, and in a fashion that smacks of la cosa nostra ?
Why, the Police Unions, FOP, and related orgs, of course.
When they actively standing in the way of flat out common sense reforms, it's not a few bad apples or an isolated incident any more, it's a pattern of conduct that they actively support.
When they stop ACTING like a mafia or street gang, I will stop flaming them as one.
-Frem
*Incremental Minimalism is favoring a rollback of redundant, unneccessary of unwanted laws, offices, agencies and taxes as both a net cost savings and to reduce the amount of legal and social hassle upon the population as a whole as well as a cost savings measure.
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I think a persons opinion of the police is primarily determined by the police in the area they grew up in. For me it was Kansas, where most law enforcement is done on the City level. This can be a problem because in many smaller towns the Police Chief is related to the Mayor who is related to the local Judge. This means some in the community can get away with "murder", while others will be arrested for Jaywalking. I've found that justice is more evenly administered when the enforcement is done on the County or State level. In Kansas if you get pulled over by the Highway Patrol(State Cops) you will find them polite and professional. On the other hand if you get pulled over by a local cop you're most likely to get a police academy reject with a power trip. Here in Florida most enforcement is done by the County Sheriffs Dept. and they seem to be professional and ethical. There are actually quite a few stories in the local news about cops arresting other cops. A cop that won't hesitate to arrest another cop is what we need more of in the US today.
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Quote:You keep saying this, like it means something to me, but really I think you’re just trying to convince yourself. This is a classic example of paranoia. You are so desperate to avoid any opinion that might mistakenly filter into that closed mind of yours that you can’t see me as having a different point of view or even being wrong - no you have to see me as intentionally distorting the “truth,” as if somehow I’m out to get you. As someone who actively trying to undermine this fictional idea of “truth” you have. This is classic paranoia.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You see, that argument might have worked but for a couple reasons.
First, there's a big credibility gap here - you got none, you've lied, repeatedly, been caught lying, denied it, and lied some more, and you almost never offer proof of any of your claims, the few times you have it's been shot to pieces immediately.
And it’s also somewhat meaningless, because I know what I know, and I know that I’ve never met a police officer that I thought was a Mafioso or a member of a street gang. Never. In my life. You can pretend, all you want, that this is not really what I know - that instead I am like those evil cops and I’m out to get you, but that’s delusional.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Do you think being white may have something to do with that ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Due to the likelihood of a criminal being black, as opposed to white, it’s probably true that more officers are more likely to exceed appropriate behavior with a black person then with a white person, but even then it’s still probably the exception, not the rule.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn, I highly doubt your word on anything, obviously...
But if that is the case - it is the exception, rather than the rule, and where ever they are finding THOSE cops, they need to send some of em HERE as training cadre.
I've known decent cops, even within the BCPD, Joe Goode volunteered to actually do foot patrols in the really awful neighborhood where I lived as part of a community policing initiative, which eventually failed because his fellow officers indulged in some really unbecoming behavior, but I never knew HIM to do so.
He had this idea that since resources were limited, one should triage enforcement in such a manner where it did the community the most good - busting some schlep quietly drinking a beer on his own front porch for public intoxication woulda never crossed joe's mind, nor would a lot of petty stuff that not only would NOT help keep the peace, but if pressed would provoke the community needlessly - and if he did have to take someone off the street, he did it by the book.
He retired shortly before I moved on from that neighborhood, and in all that time, no one even really tried to harm him, cause we knew him as a PERSON, not some goonsquaddie swooping down out of the night to arrest everyone in sight for anything they thought would stick...
The best protection an officer has is the respect of the community he serves, but with all forms of respect, you have to bring some, to get some.
He brought it, and he got it.
That man is the only reason I ever had the slightest bit of respect for the idea and purpose of police at all, the only example I ever had at the time, of a cop who wasn't a petty, hateful thug with a badge.
Am I so very wrong to hold the rest of the force to a standard I learned from a cop in the first place ?
-F
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Quote:So, based on your personal experience, you think all stories about abuse of authority are what...lies? I could make a list of my personal run-ins with the idiot jocks, disillusioned that their High School status didn't transfer to the real world, who then became idiot cops and enforced whatever pleased them at the moment, but then that's just MY personal experience, so I suspect you will dismiss it.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’ve never met a police officer who didn’t treat me and others with as much or more respect then was deserved. Never. In my life.
And, as Hero says, For The Record, my dealings with the Police have, more often than not, been extremely pleasant, but the fact that there have been so many times when it has not been forces me to question their screening process.
I'm happy for you that you never had a problem, Finn, just don't take that as a country-wide norm.
Remember Serpicoisall
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Oh, just so that no one thinks it's rhetoric..
The BCPD, DPD and LAPD do indeed often act like a protection racket, this is only one case of many, believe me you'll have no trouble finding more...
2 Former Cops Plead Guilty To Extortion
POSTED: 8:01 am EDT April 9, 2008
DETROIT -- Two former Detroit police officers have pleaded guilty in the shaking down of a gas station clerk who chased off troublemakers with a shotgun.
Brandon Allen, 24, and Aaron Scott, 23 pleaded guilty recently to extortion charges in U.S. District Court in Detroit. Both live in Southfield, and have resigned from the police department.
They could face up to 20 years in prison. Scott is to be sentenced June 30, and Allen's sentencing was set for Aug. 4.
The Justice Department says the officers went to the gas station Oct. 19 with guns drawn and handcuffed the clerk. They told him he could avoid going to jail if he paid them.
The in-store surveillance video shows the clerk handing money from the register to one of the officers.
URL - http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/15832167/detail.html?rss=det&psp=ne
ws
But one thing I wanted to note is how and why they shook him down, there's little doubt said "troublemakers" (don't you love how they spun THAT one ?) were attempting to rob the place and fled when instead of meek compliance they wound up facing a drawn weapon.
It's possible (as has happened often enough before) that the perps were the ones that called the cops - the BCPD and DPD, and this is from my own direct local knowledge, have such a hostile attitude towards self defense in any form, that they will not hestitate to arrest YOU for it, and thus when no bullets fly or bodies hit the ground, no one will call them unless they feel the need to document events for legal or insurance purposes, you see.
But the bad guys can ALWAYS count on calling in a "man with gun" to get the police to disarm their victim FOR them.
The old guy who lived a block over, who I used to chat with when we did yardwork in our back yards... he died that way, chased off the local street punks with an old revolver, who promptly called the cops, who showed up and charged the old codger, took it from him, and the punks showed up late that night and beat him to death.
Incidents like these, isolated or not, color the viewpoint of everyone who knew the person, everyone related to them, everyone who saw it, and it doesn't take all that damn many to turn an entire community AGAINST the police dept - once reason they will not respond in 21225 with anything less than four cars.
And even in a state that DOES rememeber what the second amendment says, all too often around here, a homeowner who runs off a home invader with a weapon finds himself staring down the gun barrels of a VERY hostile police department, and soon after face down on the ground with some cops knee in the back of his neck getting cuffed, then thrown into a wall and viciously interrogated while the cops "look around" on a fishing expedition for anything they can bust the HOMEOWNER for, or worse - and this sequence of events, repeated over and over has most definately colored the communities perception of the DPD, how could it not, when it's almost an everyday occurance around here ?
You'll also note that at no time do they make any effort to go looking for the perp, too busy teaching those vile self-defenders a lesson, yes?
Too damned often people are AFRAID to call the cops, because they risk arrest and harrassment instead of help.
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/01/30/Tampabay/Police_jail_rape_vict.shtml
This should not be the case - but it is.
Folks should be able to call in the cavalry without fear of being stampeded, shouldn't they ?
-F
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Quote:Why would you think that I think that? See, there’s that selective reading again - where you ignore reading certain phrases so that you can mischaracterise my point. I’m not the one generalizing an entire group of people by the actions of a few or dismissing outright other points of view - you’re thinking of Frem.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
So, based on your personal experience, you think all stories about abuse of authority are what...lies?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"No, I think it’s more likely the police officer(s) just simply aren’t the monsters you portray them as."
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Because you stated TWICE that has NEVER been your experience- never. As if that had some kind of weight to it. I've never been shot- but I believe many peeps have been...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Why would you think that I think that?
Quote:Maybe it's me and maybe it's you- the main point I get from your posts is that complaining about abuse of authority is nonsense. That our rights are intact. Tell that to Frem's neighbor.
See, there’s that selective reading again - where you ignore reading certain phrases so that you can mischaracterise my point.
Quote:Frem has been at or near the center of conflict you can only read about ( thank goodness for your luck) so his POV is understandably forcefully expressed. Doesn't make it off the mark though, IMO.
I’m not the one generalizing an entire group of people by the actions of a few or dismissing outright other points of view - you’re thinking of Frem.
The Death Wish-like Chrisisall
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A few thoughts.
1) Since any one person's experience should have as much weight as any others, Finn and Frems experiences are equally valid. The difference is that Finn is not claiming that every officer must be an angel based on his experience and Frem seems to be suggesting all officers are Aholes based on his.
2) Frem is right, you would expect that line of work to attract certain personality types, which is probably why "the bad stuff" happens far more than we like.
3)He's also right that professional police groups are far more likely to consider complaints as attacks rather than reports of abuses. At least part of this I suspect is because alledging police harrasment is a "gambit" that some offenders use to try and avoid prosecution. If you KNOW you personally did nothing wrong but you are accused of something as part of a perps attempt to get off or gain sympathy at trial then I suspect if you hear similar complaints about another officer you're probably thinking the same thing is going on. Actual genuine abuses are probably not the first thing you think of.
4) The avaiability of cameras mean that abuses when they do happen are no longer "he said, she said" kinds of events. I think this is a good thing. However, even if we had 1000 videos (which we don't) we cant use them to say anything more than a 1000 events took place. There must be several hundred thousand police related encounters nationwide in a day, we have no way of knowing how many of those are bad events. Logically some of them must be, but by the same token people die during routine surgical proceedures. Almost anything humans do has a screwup and F***up factor.
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Quote:Frem clearly gave a positive example of a good cop.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Finn and Frems experiences are equally valid. The difference is that Finn is not claiming that every officer must be an angel based on his experience and Frem seems to be suggesting all officers are Aholes based on his.
Maybe a place in the middle...off the edge....
Malisall
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Quote:No, it’s you. There’s no way to logically get from my posts what you’ve come up with. The opinion you claim I'm expressing in this thread is completely independent of anything I've actually said.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Maybe it's me and maybe it's you- the main point I get from your posts is that complaining about abuse of authority is nonsense.
You also practice selective reading of Frem’s posts, but the difference is that you use the selective reading to apologize for Frem, not mischaracterise him. In the end, one thing is certain- you’ve neither tried to understand me or Frem.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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No, Chris understands me perfectly well, it's you who never seem to get it no matter how many times or ways I express it.
My issues with us *having* a police force are minimal, I am well aware the general population isn't really grown up enough emotionally to not need that kind of backstop, although if it were not for the few decent examples of folk doing the job RIGHT - I would never have known it's value.
But see, that's the whole point - I want them to do the job, without abuse, waste or stupidity, to do it well and hold to a professional standard of conduct, part of which is NOT tolerating it among their own, WE should not have clean their house for em, THEY should do it before we get the chance, by putting the boot to folk unwilling or unable to hold to that standard, but they don't.
Instead they make excuses, cover for them, and this amounts to a tacit complicity that I find intolerable, you wouldn't want your banks manager covering for an embezzling employee, you wouldn't want your local hospital covering for a bungling doctor with a drinking problem, so why should we accept this phenomenae from our police forces ?
Folks should not be hestitant to report a crime due to fear of being arrested or assaulted by the police.
(See Also: Alice, affiliate)
Folks should not fear being hassled or arrested for defending themselves or their property.
But they are, due to a demonstrated pattern of behavior spanning multiple departments, many of which are not isolated incidents of a single officers misconduct, but like the LAPD Rampart issues, the current Chicago PD investigations, and the Kathryn Johnson case, have involved on-going, systematic, department-wide misconduct and abuse over long periods of time.
Originally published in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=185302
"Atlanta police narcotics officers often falsified search warrants to make busts and pad their arrests records hoping to satisfy goals set for them by upper brass, federal investigators said."
The problem is that they keep hiding behind that "few bad apples" excuse, and people LET them, when all the evidence points to a bad barrel.
And it never, ever stops, not at long as we give them a free pass on this behavior by buying into that bullshit excuse.
1999
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D01E4DC1339F937A2575BC
0A96F958260
2003
http://www.truthinjustice.org/17-detroit-cops.htm
2007
http://detroit.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel07/de092607.htm
2008
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080313/NEWS05/803130
348
Notice any real difference ?
Notice a pattern of specific, ongoing conduct ?
Notice a damn near continual need for the FBI to be up the DPD's ass with a microscope ?
This level of organised, systematic criminal behavior makes them a Mafia, not a police force, which is why I call them on it.
Just because it doesn't impact you directly, doesn't mean it doesn't impact you - a lack of confidence in the police can lead to all manner of unpleasantness, and who do you think pays the fines these guys rack up ?
Why, the very people they're mistreating - us taxpayers.
All I WANT is for them to do the job, and in a professional manner befitting the responsibility which they have assumed, and since *as a whole* that isn't happening, quite right that I am pissed off about it.
Sheepdogs that eat your sheep are a waste of resources and a detriment to the purpose for which you hired them.
-Frem
PS. You'll note, if you've at all been paying any kind of attention, when a cop DOES do a good job, or even gives a good faith effort despite a training failure, I am just as quick to call it a good job of things.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=31658
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Quote:You only express it one way - ‘any cop is a bad cop.’ Yes, after someone points out how ridiculous you sound, you’ll eventually throw a bone to try to recover your lost credibility. You’ll mention the ONE “good cop,” but only as a last resort, after your attempts at character assassination have failed. If you were honest about it, I suspect you’d have to admit that you want to believe that all cops are bad, because it fit’s the requirements for your extremists views of society. How can your dream of a purely Marxist society ever come to pass, if the state continues to police the public? You don’t want the police to regulate themselves - you want the police to be disband in favor of an anarchic society. You don’t care about confidence in the police. Your whole attitude is an attempt to undermine confidence in the police. You don’t want them to do their job - you want them gone - out of the equation completely. No I don’t think Chris understand you, but I’m pretty sure I do.
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
No, Chris understands me perfectly well, it's you who never seem to get it no matter how many times or ways I express it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I just think it's funny watching the usual authoritarian sycophants come out of the woodwork to defend this shit. Are you guys into the kinky whips and chains stuff too?
I'm on your side on this issue Sarge, but I quite enjoy the bondage scene. Don't knock it till you try it....
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack
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You're so fulla shit Finn.
You have this half-ass, concocted image you wanna present as a strawman, and it just pisses you off mortally that I keep ruining your illusion, doesn't it ?
You wanna sit there and try to portray me as a one-dimensional cardboard cutout like some flunkie from the extras list of a john woo movie cause you ain't got the guts to face the points I make and argue them, especially when the evidence is so heavily against your view on the subject.
But that's the thing, you can maybe, sometimes get away with turning someones argument into a strawman - but there's no way in hell you can successfully do that to a person who can blow your deliberate misperceptions to bits just by stating their own goals and opinions instead of the ones you try to duct-tape onto them.
It's also a seriously asshole thing to do, especially in light of me being crystal clear about my motives, intent and opinions, so much so that I continually clarify them in the face of your asinine distortions - no matter HOW you try to spin it, you don't speak for me, you CAN'T speak for me, because you are too busy addressing an image manufactured from whole cloth rather than the person due to the fact that you are either unable, or unwilling, to face them directly.
You, and the rest of your ilk around here, condemn yourselves far more with your own actions and behavior than I could ever do to you, you are your own worst enemy and all too often let your temper get the better of you when proven wrong, and throw little tantrums like this, showing all involved that you simply don't have the maturity to effectively argue the topic.
What's worse, is that you are completely blind to just how easy it is to set you up and drop you through the manhole because of the inherent gullibility that lead you to support parties, leaders and agencies that act against your own interests instead of for them, something you won't admit, because it would require a careful self examination I do not believe you are capable of.
Now, if you'd like to offer something on the topic rather than attempted strawman character assassinations and other lame shit that just makes you look like a nasty, petty little brat, that might be a start, but I figure being caught out once again, you'll just slither away leaving nothing but a slimy trail in your wake once again.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You have this half-ass, concocted image you wanna present as a strawman, and it just pisses you off mortally that I keep ruining your illusion, doesn't it ?
You wanna sit there and try to portray me as a one-dimensional cardboard cutout like some flunkie from the extras list of a john woo movie cause you ain't got the guts to face the points I make and argue them, especially when the evidence is so heavily against your view on the subject.
You mean kinda like this?
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I just think it's funny watching the usual authoritarian sycophants come out of the woodwork to defend this shit. Are you guys into the kinky whips and chains stuff too?
Seriously, how much fascist cock will you swallow before you gag???
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Quote:Finn, uh, I think you're doing with Frem what you said I'm doing with you, which is cherry picking & telling HIM HIS position on stuff.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You don’t want the police to regulate themselves - you want the police to be disband in favor of an anarchic society. You don’t care about confidence in the police. Your whole attitude is an attempt to undermine confidence in the police. You don’t want them to do their job - you want them gone - out of the equation completely.
Can we just agree on the following?
About a third of people in general are clueless or petty, and since cops are people, you should expect about the same percentage out of them.
See, if I was a cop, I'd be as quick to rat out a dickwad in my department as I would be to arrest a perp in the streets- an attitude that could get me killed, do you get that? We NEED police; I would just like to see a higher standard of recruitment & professionalism is all. But then the same goes for all government everywhere, IMO.
Quote:I think the emotionalism here is makin' that a little difficult.
No I don’t think Chris understands you, but I’m pretty sure I do.
Chrisisall
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Quote:LOL, uh, Frem, I *chortle* don't think this will help Finn see your position any more clearly....
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
you'll just slither away leaving nothing but a slimy trail in your wake once again.
Chrisisall, leaving a slimy trail of his own
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
You mean kinda like this?
Biped.
Succinct Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Biped.
Breeder.
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Law Enforcement is not perfect, as it consists of human beings who are not perfect. That said, Law Enforcement is the ONLY thing protecting you and your loved ones from the robbers, murderers, pedophiles, and rapists out there. Some people wanna go all paranoid and point to aberrations as reasons for not trusting or even hating authority?...that's fine with me. I thank God every day that there are dedicated men and women willing to do this type of work that protects everything & everybody I care about.
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Quote:Marxist? Shirley, you jest!
How can your dream of a purely Marxist society ever come to pass, if the state continues to police the public?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:No, I protect me from much of that...that being said, are you, Jong, feeling surrounded by such mobs of evil-doers? I guess I'm glad that I don't live where YOU do, heh heh
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Law Enforcement is not perfect, as it consists of human beings who are not perfect. That said, Law Enforcement is the ONLY thing protecting you and your loved ones from the robbers, murderers, pedophiles, and rapists out there.
Quote:I thank Buddha myself for the good peeps on the job, doesn't mean I don't loathe the creeps that slide by on the shadowy side of things.
I thank God every day that there are dedicated men and women willing to do this type of work that protects everything & everybody I care about.
Iron-fisted Chrisisall
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Quote:Homosapien.
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Breeder.
Evolved Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:No, I protect me from much of that...that being said, are you, Jong, feeling surrounded by such mobs of evil-doers? I guess I'm glad that I don't live where YOU do, heh heh
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Law Enforcement is not perfect, as it consists of human beings who are not perfect. That said, Law Enforcement is the ONLY thing protecting you and your loved ones from the robbers, murderers, pedophiles, and rapists out there.Quote:I thank Buddha myself for the good peeps on the job, doesn't mean I don't loathe the creeps that slide by on the shadowy side of things.
I thank God every day that there are dedicated men and women willing to do this type of work that protects everything & everybody I care about.
Iron-fisted Chrisisall
Mock all you want little man. I am steadfast in my beliefs.
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Quote:Not mockin', Jong, just funnin'- there's a difference.
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Mock all you want little man. I am steadfast in my beliefs.
No monkey-pants Chrisisall
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ALWAYS so much hate in these kinds of threads... and I'm sorry, but I've always had an issue with the WAY you present yourself in these kinds of arguments, Frem, which make me want to side with Finn instead of listening to a prefectly valid viewpoint that you may have... I do not disagree with WHAT your saying most times Frem, just the WAY you say it...
The way you state your ideas seems to me to be you forcing your own point of view down peoples throats, and belitteling them and demeaning them until they either agree to your point of view or, as you say "slink off in their own trail of slime"
You, sir, should try slinking away from these boards in your own trail of slime until you can learn to play nice with the rest of the folks on these boreds... both Finn and yourself are rather inflamitory presences into these kinds of debates... 
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Quote:No. I’m not doing that at all. If you don’t believe me go read what Frem has to say on the idea of anarchy. The difference here is that I actually read what Frem says. So I actually know what he thinks the state is so inherently corrupt and oppressive that he believes it should be done away with completely. And this isn’t something Frem mentioned on the side one day - this has been his raison d’etre for a while now - you couldn’t miss it, unless you were trying to.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Finn, uh, I think you're doing with Frem what you said I'm doing with you, which is cherry picking & telling HIM HIS position on stuff.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You don’t want the police to regulate themselves - you want the police to be disband in favor of an anarchic society. You don’t care about confidence in the police. Your whole attitude is an attempt to undermine confidence in the police. You don’t want them to do their job - you want them gone - out of the equation completely.
Quote:So what is your point? Are you trying to convince me that not all police are angels? That there are bad cops out there? Is that what you want me to believe?
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Can we just agree on the following?
About a third of people in general are clueless or petty, and since cops are people, you should expect about the same percentage out of them.
See, if I was a cop, I'd be as quick to rat out a dickwad in my department as I would be to arrest a perp in the streets- an attitude that could get me killed, do you get that? We NEED police; I would just like to see a higher standard of recruitment & professionalism is all. But then the same goes for all government everywhere, IMO.
**Corrected for geometry, at the request of Signym.
**Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Jesus H. Frem.... YES!!! Yes, there are bad cops out there, also, yes there are good cops out there... to simply refuse to belive there are no bad cops simply because you have not personaly been affected by them, you are INSANE!!!
I think I may just give up on any and all serious, current event posts, the amount of insanity and bias being brought forth, not to mention the amount of hateful attitude comeing off these things is driving me away....
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Quote:Well, do you believe that all cops are angles? Or have angles? Or do you believe that all cops are angels?
So what is your point? Are you trying to convince me that not all police are angles? That there are bad cops out there? Is that what you want me to believe?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:I never jest. I don’t have a sense of humor that I’m aware of. And don’t call me Shirley.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Marxist? Shirley, you jest!
How can your dream of a purely Marxist society ever come to pass, if the state continues to police the public?
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Maybe I'm taking his exuberance on the subject with a grain of salt...I din't get that he wants NO government...maybe I should re-read it to check...
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
No. I’m not doing that at all. If you don’t believe me go read what Frem has to say on the idea of anarchy. The difference here is that I actually read what Frem says. So I actually know what he thinks the state is so inherently corrupt and oppressive that he believes it should be done away with completely. And this isn’t something Frem mentioned on the side one day - this has been his raison d’etre for a while now - you couldn’t miss it, unless you were trying to.
Quote:"Angles"? Not understanding here.
So what is your point? Are you trying to convince me that not all police are angles? That there are bad cops out there? Is that what you want me to believe?
I just want to see if you agree that corruption exists in many departments, and that the fact that you haven't personally been directly adversely affected by it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Just curious.
Chrisisall, sad victim of police verbal abuse, theft & threats himself
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Quote:Well, chris, obviously I believe cops are all angles. Some are acute others are obtuse and still others are right. And then there are the spherical angles, which I don‘t even want to get started on.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
"Angles"? Not understanding here.
I just want to see if you agree that corruption exists in many departments, and that the fact that you haven't personally been directly adversely affected by it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Just curious.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Ted Striker: Surely you can't be serious.
Rumack: I am serious... and don't call me Shirley.
-----------------
Rumack: You'd better tell the Captain we've got to land as soon as we can. This woman has to be gotten to a hospital.
Elaine Dickinson: A hospital? What is it?
Rumack: It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
------------
Roger Murdock: Flight 2-0-9'er, you are cleared for take-off.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: L.A. departure frequency, 123 point 9'er.
Captain Oveur: Roger!
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Victor Basta: Request vector, over.
Captain Oveur: What?
Tower voice: Flight 2-0-9'er cleared for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Captain Oveur: Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
Tower voice: Tower's radio clearance, over!
Captain Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur. Over.
Tower voice: Over.
Captain Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?
Tower voice: Roger, over!
Roger Murdock: What?
Captain Oveur: Huh?
Victor Basta: Who?
www.imdb.com/title/tt0080339/quotes
I never jest. I don’t have a sense of humor that I’m aware of.
(The FBI doesn't have a sense of humor that I'm aware of, ma'am.)
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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Okay, I obviously took silly-pills this AM and I derailed a perfectly valid, serious discussion about authority.
Finn, words seem to have been put into your mouth that all cops are good cops. I'm pretty sure that's not what you think. So, what DO you think?
---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.
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JONG
Quote:
That said, Law Enforcement is the ONLY thing protecting you and your loved ones from the robbers, murderers, pedophiles, and rapists out there.
Not quite.
Situational awareness, self-defense, are your first bulwark.
Why do I refer to the police as the Cavalry ?
Cause in a way, that's what they are - look, a minor kitchen greasefire, you might nail that one yourself, especially if like me you have a proper fire extinguisher on hand, fully charged and of the correct type.
But that's the key word, MIGHT, and if it gets out of your control, beyond your personal ability to handle, you call 911 and howl for the cavalry in the form of your local fire department, yes ?
The fire extinguisher is your first line, but nobody is saying just cause someone has one there's no NEED for a fire dept.
This analogy goes for the police as well.
Even in regions that DO respect one's right to self protection, there are situations that require more troops or firepower, at least in potential, than one person can bring to bear - and as well police replaced the old time tradition of the posse, instead of rounding up a posse when the criminal has headed for the hills, you summon the police to serve the same function, which in theory they should be better at since it's a fulltime job to them.
Believe me I understand the idea in concept, but it's execution has become so distorted that we need to put a leash on it, and the sooner the better.
CHRIS
Quote:
Maybe I'm taking his exuberance on the subject with a grain of salt...I din't get that he wants NO government...maybe I should re-read it to check...
Please do, you'll note that I state over and over that socially, mentally, emotionally, we're not ready for that and will not be for a long time.
That is where incremental minimalism comes into play, weaning us off dependance on external authority starting with that which has no use, is counterproductive, or only exists to fill the porkbarrel.
What I am pulling for is returning some level of personal responsibility and autonomy instead of giving more and more of our lives into the care of others till we're practically a nationwide nursing home.
The police need to learn to accept and respect the fact that people are capable of protecting themselves against minor threats, if not so viciously discouraged, and allow them to do so while using their limited resources for issues that do require professional intervention.
And no, it sure doesn't help when the department itself, and those affiliated with it, are involved in some of those very issues - like the drug trade and it's associated criminal activity and violence, which their purpose is to mitigate, not participate.
BROWNCOAT
Quote:
I'm sorry, but I've always had an issue with the WAY you present yourself in these kinds of arguments, Frem, which make me want to side with Finn instead of listening to a prefectly valid viewpoint that you may have... I do not disagree with WHAT your saying most times Frem, just the WAY you say it...
The way you state your ideas seems to me to be you forcing your own point of view down peoples throats, and belitteling them and demeaning them until they either agree to your point of view
I think you mistake me, Browncoat, severely so - yes, I can be harsh, but I will listen to and countenance an argument, especially one where evidence is given and the reason and logic holds, even when I don't agree.
But I refuse to tolerate blatant lies, deliberate distortions, and intentional misrepresentation of my arguments in the fashion it has been done here, and will not only call it out, but hell yes I will bust someones chops for it, cause I get sick of being on the receiving end of it over and over for no better reason than holding a different political concept than most folk do.
You bring me a convincing argument, and some evidence, I can be quite reasonable, but sorry, it's just not in me to tolerate lies, deceptions, misrepresentation of my own viewpoints and plain out a
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
By no means is anyone obligated to agree with me, but if you wanna argue the point, argue the point - instead of attacking me, my beliefs, or my right to hold them.
If someone did that to you, would you not respond in a less than pleasant fashion perhaps ?
Just some thoughts on that for you, is all.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
Hmmm... I'm sorry if my opinion came off as me attacking you, I can be the exact same way, and I tend to look into these threads generally a few days after all of the debate has taken place, so I tend to skim them instead of read them straight through. Most of the comments that I have noticed from you happen to be attacking (at least in part) something in which I believe strongly in (not "todays" debate in particular) it's just that this was kind of the straw that broke the camals back and I may have gotten a bit abrasive and/or defensive...
Again, I appologize if I came off as attacking you, just a general build up of... bad vibes I guess... comeing off today (stupid alarm clock didn't go off, so I got to class late, and it's friggin SNOWING up here again
)
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Nah, you had a legit beef and I felt an explaination was required.
All too often with one of these threads, I wanna debate the topic and somehow wind up fielding crap that doesn't contribute to it instead, and when folks do that for reasons that have nothing to do with the issue at hand, I do tend to bare some fangs over it, and certain folk have done it often enough that I can be pretty unpleasant about it, sure.
Thing is, the hammer of my argument accomplishes little or nothing without the anvil of a well expressed opposing viewpoint, we've come up with some pretty sensible and palatable ideas on other topics that way - but it doesn't work if instead of forging solutions we attack each other with the tools, you see.
Obviously all police cannot be bad, for were that the case, they would be unable whatsoever to perform the function that they do, that ain't ever what I been sayin - just that we need reforms, we need controls on their behavior, and how to do it without impacting their ability to perform the assigned function, cause if you mire it down in regs and red tape, that's every bit as bad as allowing things to run wild.
We also seriously need to take a closer look at their training and it's focus, I believe, and if I get the chance sometime next week, imma do that, got some business down near there to handle and can maybe put some questions to folk, although that place gives me the willies, as it would any Anarchist, meh.
-F
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By "business" you mean bombing the police station, dontcha, ya anarchist 
(total sarcasm here, stupid text is hard to show that unless you write it out )
Oh, yes... suprisingly I agree with you on this topic 
Although I personally haven't had any bad experiences with cops, I've heard plenty of horror stories and wonder why in the hell they can get away with that...
Although I haven't heard a story quite like the one with the old man and his being disarmed... I'm gunna have to do some of my own digging in regards to that, and if it is true (not saying I don't think it's possible, just saying it sounds highly unlikely to me) then there is something seriously wrong there... if a man can loose a pistol that he kept for his own self defence and had registered to his name... well, that's some hardcore trampling of our constitutional right to bear arms...
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Quote:I think most people oversimplify the situation - they don’t understand it and many don’t want to. It’s easy to despise authority, but reasonable people understand it’s necessity and should try to be fair in their thinking.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay, I obviously took silly-pills this AM and I derailed a perfectly valid, serious discussion about authority.
Finn, words seem to have been put into your mouth that all cops are good cops. I'm pretty sure that's not what you think. So, what DO you think?
The simplification that occurs is the myth of the “asshole cop.” Like any group of people, there will always be “assholes,” but that’s pretty subject and unspecific term. When we examine what “asshole” means I think we discover that the asshole cops aren’t really the problem. One might view an asshole cop as a corrupt cop - someone who uses his position for illicit activity. But cops aren’t stupid, and if a cop is corrupt he’s not going to bring attention to himself. Yes, it’s true he may use inappropriate force, but often he will be operating in the shadows out of view or concern of the public. So corrupt cops pose a unique problem but not typically the one that is responsible for the negative view some in the public hold of police. The second way “asshole” is interpreted is to assume that police are power-hungry, suffering from inferiority complexes - not really corrupt but just bullies - and while it makes sense that police work would disproportionately attract this kind of personality to the career, over say bank tellers or engineers, the assumption that this plays a big role in the appearance of police does not take into account the degree to which police work is heavily documented and regimented with strict rules of conduct and engagement. Quite literally police are not at liberty to employ their own personality - but rather are required to employ very strict rules of engagement - which include an excess of politeness. So I seriously doubt that the bully factor plays as much into this as some think.
This doesn’t mean that either of these situation isn’t important on its own merit and shouldn’t be source of concern and dealt with appropriately - but this is a different topic - this is not typically what creates those YouTube encounters from which some people will inevitably demand that all cops are assholes. Sometimes it is the bully-cop or the corrupt-cop that we see on YouTube, but most of the time, what we are looking at are good cops who are subject like everyone else to human nature.
Unlike bank tellers and engineers, police often routinely deal with people who have both the incentive and the will to do them harm, and while they are trained to deal with these kinds of people, situational awareness will never be 100% and mistakes get made and tress takes its tole. An officer may be having a bad day, and may over react to what would otherwise be a benign situation. We can criticize this behavior and say it shouldn’t happen, but there for the grace of god go us. Often the situation is even more ambiguous, an officer may see something or hear something that tips him off to a more dangerous situation then is present or he may correctly react to a real potential of a dangerous situation, only to have the suspect deny that there was any such danger, or the situation may go completely by the book with no one getting hurt, but a naïve uninformed populous may still find reason to resent the actions of the police. And we, the citizenry share more blame for these kinds of situations then we are generally willing to admit. Many people resent the authority of the police or may resent that authority when it is applied to them. Many people may correctly believe that they are not a threat, and may naively fail to understand why the police might view them as a potential threat. And so we tend to mouth off and become over agitated by authority more then we should - we tend to fail to understand the seriousness of the situation - but any encounter with an officer is serious,
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just got a short span here... i'm being moved to maximum security in a few... seems that they actually had to parole a couple of serial rapists/murderers to make room for me... ya see i got popped with 2 seeds in the ashtray of my vw.... johnny law in these parts has his priorities don't you know....
seriously shirley, i'm not going to waste everyone's time here with my interpretation of good cop bad cop... but i noticed a new movie out today - Street Kings that evidently paints a pretty grim picture of the LAPD.... a Keanu Reeves vehicle... so take it for what you will..
please continue....
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"Quite literally police are not at liberty to employ their own personality - but rather are required to employ very strict rules of engagement - which include an excess of politeness."
I have a cousin who is a version of federal police (don't want to say exactly what kind). Many, many things happen that aren't by the book - all the other cops know, maybe even the next level up has a suspicion (but it's a don't ask, don't tell policy) - but you're making a very unsupported statement here. Without cams and recorders, with only other police and suspects as witnesses - WHO exactly is going to ensure that this code of conduct is followed ?
***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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Quote:Except for the ones that consider themselves the Law, as opposed to being those that serve it.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quite literally police are not at liberty to employ their own personality - but rather are required to employ very strict rules of engagement - which include an excess of politeness.
Quote:*muffled sardonic laughter*
So I seriously doubt that the bully factor plays as much into this as some think.
Quote:Difference is when I'm having a bad day I don't TASE anyone or start a process that requires time, lawyers and money.
most of the time, what we are looking at are good cops who are subject like everyone else to human nature.
An officer may be having a bad day, and may over react to what would otherwise be a benign situation.
Quote:I guess I'm just a superior homosapien then- NOTHING could cause me to physically harm someone who isn't directly trying to harm me or others...I guess I'm just exceptional that way- I should cut some slack for peeps with badges & guns that feel the need to let off some steam occasionally...
We can criticize this behavior and say it shouldn’t happen, but there for the grace of god go us.
Quote:Puhleeeeze. I was stopped by a cop in a police car while I was riding my bike at night when I was 25, the officer treated me like s**t for ten minutes before even noticing my hunting knife visibly strapped to my belt, at which point he asked me why I had it. I told him I checked with the local PD and they said it was all legal, and that I carried it due to the presence of wild dog packs that roamed the area I had to bike through at late hours. He asked me what planet I thought he was from and I SO wanted to tell him Uranus, but I didn't. He then took the knife from me, and when I asked him when I might be allowed to get it back, he asked me if I really wanted to spend a night in jail. Then he told me to go home. Next day I drew a picture of him & went to the station in the precinct listed on his car, and was told no such incident had been reported, and when I showed the drawing and explained that I wanted to make no trouble, but that it was a fairly expensive knife, they told me to come back the following day, which I did. They handed me my knife in a bag, and had me sign nothing. When I got home I found it had been sharpened razor-fine. That punk stole a cool, legal knife from what he thought was a scared, dumb kid (I played it well, I guess) just for fun. And that's my nicest bad-cop story.
Many people may correctly believe that they are not a threat, and may naively fail to understand why the police might view them as a potential threat. And so we tend to mouth off and become over agitated by authority more then we should - we tend to fail to understand the seriousness of the situation - but any encounter with an officer is serious, even if its just a routine traffic stop.
Quote:In MY job, I'm REQUIRED to leave my bad day at home, why can't someone with a firearm be required to do the same?
This doesn’t make cops bad, it makes them human and it makes us human.
Good Chrisisall bad Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:In MY job, I'm REQUIRED to leave my bad day at home, why can't someone with a firearm be required to do the same?
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
This doesn’t make cops bad, it makes them human and it makes us human.
Ah but do you? Really? I know I can't chose my bad days, sometimes things just go down hill and I can't afford to say "you know what, I'm going home now."
We all have bad days the best we can hope for is that we show some grace under pressure.
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Quote:...and not shoot someone.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
We all have bad days the best we can hope for is that we show some grace under pressure.
Agreeing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:...and not shoot someone.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
We all have bad days the best we can hope for is that we show some grace under pressure.
Agreeing Chrisisall
You work for the postal service?
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Quote:No, but I do work with the public, all day
Originally posted by Fletch2:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:...and not shoot someone.
Originally posted by Fletch2:
We all have bad days the best we can hope for is that we show some grace under pressure.
Agreeing Chrisisall
You work for the postal service?
, and I still wouldn't tase most folk.Non-violent Chrisisall
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You keep bring up tasing, but use of tasers is often a perfect example of a situation in which police react appropriately, only to be condemned for it because people understandably find the screaming and thrashing of tased individuals disagreeable. But what many people don’t understand (and in truth many don’t want to understand) is that tasing is far safer then physical restraint. Most unexplained deaths that occur in custody have been shown to be the result of physical restraint, yet many people would prefer police to use physical restraint simply because it avoids them the discomfort of seeing someone being tased. You want to simplify the issue down to a bunch bullying police, but its not that simple.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Browncoat, I doubt the old geezer had any paperwork on the piece he was waving around that night, I figure they cited him for "brandishing" and took it in hopes of preventing one of the little punks from getting shot, I myself couldn't tell you what level of training the guy had, either, never knew him well enough, so it's not beyond pale he might have capped one of them without intent.
That bein said, when they came back that night, I doubt they intended actual murder, probably wanted to rough him up as an object lesson and it got out of hand.
I had my own run-in with the little ratpack as well, caught them in my back yard trying to make off with my Tomos Bullet, and their leader drew what appeared to be a weapon, only to find himself staring down the twin barrels of my grandaddys .410 bird gun, which was all I had handy at the time.
Faced with the unpleasant possibility of eating some birdshot, they humped it down the way.
Predictably, soon after the BCPD came to MY place and threatened to take the bird gun... and I really kinda hesitate to admit it, but some threats were exchanged by BOTH sides, and they left without filing charges OR taking the weapon.
This happened, mind, a couple days after the coroner collected the old guy and we were of no mind to wind up the same way, you see - me, girl, girls brother and both her parents, eye to eye with two officers and no intent to meekly comply.
So they left, told us to go to hell and if we DID shoot one of the little punks and do the world that much a favor, they were gonna bust the lot of us for murder and conspiracy to commit.
We told them to go to hell and not come back without a warrant in hand.
Then we had a few quiet discussions with the neighbors of that block and the next one over, and with a little help from the scanner and actions taken while the force was in no position to act, made the little bastards find somewhere else to play their nasty little games.
That ugly bit of business was the final straw in me leaving that neighborhood, despite having to ditch a reall good job in an area where they were few and far between.
And yeah, it colored my perception of the force significantly, as did quite a few others before it in that area.
Didn't help the locals opinion of em any, neither.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Difference is when I'm having a bad day I don't TASE anyone or start a process that requires time, lawyers and money.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
An officer may be having a bad day, and may over react to what would otherwise be a benign situation.
For that observation alone, CIA...THANK YOU.
It was like that when we got here!
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Quote:Again, puhleeeeeze. Tasing is easy and requires less paperwork is all. It's what you do when you're angry enough to shoot someone, but not angry enough to plant evidence & go to court because of the blood.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You keep bring up tasing, but use of tasers is often a perfect example of a situation in which police react appropriately
Quote:You want to simplify the issue down to an uncooperative and unsympathetic public, but it's not that simple.
You want to simplify the issue down to a bunch bullying police, but its not that simple.
Excessive Chrisisall
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Quote:As I said, many people don’t really care about the real issues here. They have decided to adopt this simplistic view that police are bullies, and that‘s all there is to it. You simply will not even entertain the idea that there could possibly be another dimension, and neither will many others.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You want to simplify the issue down to an uncooperative and unsympathetic public, but it's not that simple.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Well, more accurately, that the system allows a certain percentage to be bullies, and this is an area I personally would appreciate having a zero-tolerance for.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
As I said, many people don’t really care about the real issues here. They have decided to adopt this simplistic view that police are bullies, and that‘s all there is to it.
Again, for the cheap seats: A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE.
Nobody, and I do mean nobody here is saying that all or most cops are bad. No more so that saying Swiss cheese is made entirely of holes. It has A PERCENTAGE of holes.
Are we clear yet?
Precise Chrisisall
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Quote:That’s still an over simplistic view, which completely ignores the responsibility of the public. I think that there is something very self-serving about this explanation, after all if you can convince yourself that all police encounters that don’t’ go the way you expect them to are solely the result of “bully-police” then you can absolve yourself of the responsibilities you have in such encounters - you are then free to be as big a bully or more to the point as unfair as you want.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Well, more accurately, that the system allows a certain percentage to be bullies, and this is an area I personally would appreciate having a zero-tolerance for.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
As I said, many people don’t really care about the real issues here. They have decided to adopt this simplistic view that police are bullies, and that‘s all there is to it.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:Here's one for ya: You probably think my perception of the Rodney King incident is that it's all the cop's fault, right? Okay, I think they went too far, but Rodney was not a small fella, and even a big guy has to lay motionless in the face of dudes with guns, so it wasn't all 'them'.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s still an over simplistic view, which completely ignores the responsibility of the public.
That's to say that there ARE gray areas that come into my consciousness, it's just that it can be so lopsided when you deal with those in 'authority' vs the little guy.
"How's a girl supposed to get home, officer?"
"Somehow."
Chrisisall
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Quote:That’s true, but the Rodney King case is many years old though. It is history not current events - if we have to wait almost 20 years for people to gain some degree of perspective in their view of the police then that doesn’t seem very fair or balanced. And the Rodney King case is a good example of the disastrous results of that lack of balance. People didn’t bother to even consider that Rodney King might not have been completely innocent in that encounter, they simply took the streets and murdered and pillaged to the tune of dozens dead and a billion dollars in damage.
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Here's one for ya: You probably think my perception of the Rodney King incident is that it's all the cop's fault, right? Okay, I think they went too far, but Rodney was not a small fella, and even a big guy has to lay motionless in the face of dudes with guns, so it wasn't all 'them'.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s still an over simplistic view, which completely ignores the responsibility of the public.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Finn
Back to my cousin - being the straight arrow and fair-minded guy he is, when he was working with a bunch of federals that had, shall we say, a culture of corruption, and could neither go along with them nor rat them out (there were just so many more of them) he developed a stress ulcer and was finally transferred away.
Not all cops are bad - but when they are they usually exist in a culture that supports it. The fellow cops are either in on it or ignore it, the boss is either in on it or ignores it, and unless or until one can get incontrovertible PROOF AS A CITIZEN that such things happen it goes on, and on, and on, and on ... under the radar. And I'm not talking about minor bullying, either.
There are good cops out there - and then there are nests that should have been cleaned out years ago. To say that those nests don't exist is the height of ignorance.
(use of tasers) "... example of a situation in which police react appropriately"
AHEM ! May I remind you that tasers are alternatives to the use of GUNS. Somehow I don't think that if a person fails to lie down on the ground you'd automatically pull out your gun and shoot them. Or would you Finn ?
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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."
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We've already done the taser issue to death, and in fact come to a pretty much mutual conclusion that every discharge should be accounted for the same as the service weapon, and it should be placed second only to the service weapon in the force continuum.
Properly used, with appropriate safeguards on their use via policy and training, they could save lives that would otherwise be more at risk because the alternative would be shootin someone.
But those safeguards NEED to be there, because without them there is the temptation to use a semi-lethal weapon as a compliance device or "people remote" - which is a wholly inappropriate, but all too common use of them.
I do suspect that as these devices filter into the hands of the public, as they have begun to do via the companies marketing, we may well see criminals using them to avoid firearms charges, and probably some long overdue legal clarification as to whether it is legally considered a lethal, non-lethal, or less-lethal weapon - which is likely to impact police policy as well.
I will note that given the current expense and difficulty of operation, it's gonna be a while before that threat is any kinda real, mind, cause a gun is still cheaper and easier to use, but there is a niche for it, just as criminals used to use stunguns at one time, especially for crimes against women.
The problem with tasers is not the device itself, it's a policy problem, and needs to be handled at the level of those who SET policy, especially since they failed so badly on having policies and use of force guidelines in place ahead of time.
I don't hold out much hope for stuffing that genie back in the bottle, but what there is of it rests further up the chain of command than the officer on the street, who is often operating on a vague or non-existent policy regarding their use.
That's only HIS failure on the judgement call, the lack of policy is a failure of his bosses, and they should get their rightful share of flak for it.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:No use of a taser should ever be automatic, but yes, if the officer has reason to believe that the person will require physical restraint before he consents, the taser is a much safer option then physical restraint.
Originally posted by rue:
AHEM ! May I remind you that tasers are alternatives to the use of GUNS. Somehow I don't think that if a person fails to lie down on the ground you'd automatically pull out your gun and shoot them. Or would you Finn ?
I know that it may seem like the taser is worse then physical restraint, but it only seems that way. Tasers are not alternatives to the use of guns. They are alternatives to the use of physical restraint. Guns are very high on the force continuum and tasers are very low - these two things are not in the same category, but because tasers can be effective at distance, they can extend the use of nonlethal force, into the range where only a gun might be effective.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:
Do you support our current president?
The correct answer to that question is DICK CHENEY.
Any other answer results in Taser execution by Fatherland Security death squads.
This shall be expedited on future airline flights, when all passengers are required to wear Taser bracelets.
As we learned in Basic Military Training, when one fuks up, all must be punished.
Quote:
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision."
-Hero, Real World Event Discussions
Kiddie porn ring by Congressman Barney Frank and convicted GOP bank robber Larry King
www.voxfux.com/features/bush_child_sex_coverup/article_archive.htm
PS: My answer to the trick question is, that I actually signed under penalty of perjury in federal court:
Quote:
"Yes, I support the immediate arrest of our current president based upon probable cause that he aided and abetted the treasonous 9/11 Massacres, along with the immediate arrests of all those who aid and abet him."
"Remember the 2nd Amendment with the right to bear arms? That's not done for hunting or fishing, Our forfathers put that right in there so that we have the ability to rise up if our country becomes oppressive."
-Governor Jesse Ventura, Navy SEAL bomber, author of Don't Start the Revolution without Me, Colbert Report, April 7, 2008
"I kicked myself when it initially happened that the light didn't go off but I was so shocked that this thing had even taken place that I apologize for not being more aware. When I finally did watch Loose Change, I went through every emotion you could imagine, from laughing, crying, getting sick to my stomach, to the whole emotional thing. To me questions haven't been answered and are not being answered about 9/11. Two planes struck two buildings....but how is it that a third building fell 5 hours later? How could this building just implode into its own footprint 5 hours later - that's my first question - the 9/11 Commission didn't even devote one page to that in their big volume of investigation. How could those buildings fall at the speed of gravity - if you put a stopwatch on them both of those World Trade Center buildings were on the ground in ten seconds - how can that be? If you took a billiard ball and dropped it from the height of the World Trade Center in a vacuum it would hit the ground in 9.3 seconds and if you took that same billiard ball and dropped it 10 stories at a time and merely stopped it and started it it would take 30 seconds - if you dropped it every floor of the World Trade Center to the ground, simply stopping and starting it on gravity it would take over 100 seconds to reach the ground. Jet fuel is four fifths kerosene - which is not a hot burning fuel - and they wanted us to believe it melted these steel structured girders and caused these buildings to pancake collapse to the ground. I was on the site within two weeks after it happened and I saw none of these pancakes - wouldn't they all be piled up in a huge mass on the ground and yet everything was blown into dust - when you look at it from that aspect none of it makes any sense. Never before in the annuls of history has a fire caused a steel structure building to fall to the ground like these two did. Upon looking at the film in super-slow motion and the way the buildings fell and comparing that to the way that they do like a controlled demolition of a hotel in Las Vegas, they both fell identical. I did watch the film of Building 7 going down and in my opinion there's no doubt that that building was brought down with demolition. When I was watching Loose Change with a friend of mine - he happens to work for a company that helps build the Boeing airplanes and they said that when the engines completely disappeared and were destroyed, his response was, excuse my French - bullsNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I bring that example up because it's universally known, it didn't take ME 20 years to 'gain perspective'
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s true, but the Rodney King case is many years old though. It is history not current events - if we have to wait almost 20 years for people to gain some degree of perspective in their view of the police then that doesn’t seem very fair or balanced.
. But what about my example of a bad cop in my above post? Was he having a bad day? Was he stressed on that quiet night? And I have other examples & stories...am I just a bad cop-magnet? Did I encounter the ONLY 4 bad cops on Long Island...or did I just get a percentage of a larger group? What's your opinion, Finn? Do you see me as some loud-mouth trouble-maker, bringing it down on himself?
If you need me to, I can detail all my encounters...
Troublemaker Chrisisall
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Quote:What about my example that I’ve never met a bad cop? What I don’t see is any of your examples demonstrating that cops have some intrinsic non-human property to them - anymore then my experience suggest they are all saints. They are human beings who work in a high stress environment and they make mistakes, they have attitudes that get the better of them and sometimes they are real assholes, but mostly they are just like you and me. And you’re human too and quite frankly Chris, you have a stubborn attitude, a problem with authority and a desire to selectively read ideas on this board. I don’t know if that translates into your real life personality, but if it does, you’re probably a lot more frustrating for police to deal with then you think. I doubt you’re any more a saint then I am or any more a saint then those police you think are a band of assholes. What you should do is try to stop imagining that is all the fault of a some band of bad cops out there that wants to stick it to you and start understanding that we are all humans with human failings, and then maybe you‘ll understand my point.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
But what about my example of a bad cop in my above post? Was he having a bad day? Was he stressed on that quiet night? And I have other examples & stories...am I just a bad cop-magnet? Did I encounter the ONLY 4 bad cops on Long Island...or did I just get a percentage of a larger group? What's your opinion, Finn? Do you see me as some loud-mouth trouble-maker, bringing it down on himself?
If you need me to, I can detail all my encounters...
And I'm not saying that any of those examples that you gave are not significant. It's quite possible that there could be a problem - but right now you seen to expect there to be a problem and that will cloud your judgement.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Thanks for the reply Finn, that right there just cleared up any misunderstanding of your position on this for me- I think we agree much more than we disagree on the subject. We just argue our POV so intensely, I think we sometimes miss the overall point we're trying to make to each other.
Quote:Like Kirk said, I shall try to be less rigid in my thinking.
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
quite frankly Chris, you have a stubborn attitude, a problem with authority and a desire to selectively read ideas on this board. I don’t know if that translates into your real life personality, but if it does, you’re probably a lot more frustrating for police to deal with then you think.
Actually, I am quite cooperative when it comes to Police- I operate from the angle that they deserve my total respect, until proven otherwise- like I said, I believe MOST of them to be a force for good in society.
I save my inner smartass for these boards & my employers.
Reminds me of something I read as a child:
"When she was good, she was very, very good, but when she was bad she was horrid." I guess that applies to me AND the Police...
The good Chrisisall
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Quote:Probably. I think that happens a lot.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks for the reply Finn, that right there just cleared up any misunderstanding of your position on this for me- I think we agree much more than we disagree on the subject. We just argue our POV so intensely, I think we sometimes miss the overall point we're trying to make to each other.
Quote:Me too. As big an asshole as I can be, I always “Yes, sir” or “Yes, Ma’am” every officer I meet. It may not seem like much but a cooperative and respectful attitude will reassure the officer that I am not a threat and in return they are more likely to respect me.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Actually, I am quite cooperative when it comes to Police- I operate from the angle that they deserve my total respect, until proven otherwise- like I said, I believe MOST of them to be a force for good in society.
I save my inner smartass for these boards & my employers.
Quote:It probably applies to everyone.
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Reminds me of something I read as a child:
"When she was good, she was very, very good, but when she was bad she was horrid." I guess that applies to me AND the Police...
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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"Tasers are not alternatives to the use of guns."
But that's exactly how they are marketed by the company that makes them:
According to Taser International (the company that manufactures tasers), tasers are a non-lethal alternative to deadly force. (And what might that 'deadly force' be one could ask himself ? The answer would be guns.) And that's how they are justified when the city councils debate whether or not to spend the money to buy them for their police. Rather than have to deal with police-involved shootings, tasers keep police protected without the legal hassles of guns. Or so the sales pitch goes.
Instead, they are being used as the next step above a verbal command. That's a LOT of mission creep that you don't admit to.
BTW - the existence of 'bad cops' goes far beyond an individual 'being human' having a bad day - and that includes planting evidence, rape, theft, murder and collusion. And the occasional dumping off of an ill and legless man direct from the ER where they refused to treat him onto the streets of skid row. But that is in addition to the bullies and creeps who feel they can do what comes naturally because they're behind a badge and they've never been caught or punished.
And for the record there are MANY high-stress, dangerous jobs where people don't react with violence. Just think of that next time you see a 'first responder' with a defibrillator in their hands or charging into a burning building.
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Finn, I guess what you're saying is that while you acknowledge some cops are "asshole cops", that occurs mostly from individual mistakes being made, and not from either a common mindset or a culture of corruption. In other words, you assign honorable motives to the majority of police officers, and that it's relatively easy to find a few egregious examples on YouTube simply by = Znumber of honest cops * Y probability of field errors.
I thought about this for quite a while. In my encounters with police, they've always been professional and followed the "rules of engagement". The two time when police (or security) presence frightened me was (1) when they responded on a "hot prowl" to a break-in at my home and (in the dark) mistook me for the robber and (2) when I was followed by [insert three-letter agency name here] on a bogus tip that I might have been the anthrax mailer.
But then, I'm a demographic that police automatically give a "pass" on: I'm white, and (unmasks self) female, middle class, college- educated, and at this point rather older than younger. So when I was pulled over for speeding (I was) and for a fixit ticket (lost gas cap) or when I reported an assault (attempted robbery) or failure to stop at a stop sign (WHAT stop sign?) or carrying rowdy passengers (OH LOOK! A FEMALE COP!) they "ma'am" me about as much as I "sir" or "ma'am" them and everything has been by the book.
BUT. I've worked with two colleagues who later became police. I have police members in my family, and I have good friends who do NOT fit my demographic.
What really opened my eyes to what "police culture" does to a person are the two people that I worked with who decided to bail out of the technical arena and go into police-work. The first one was a natural bully anyway, but the second...
The second was a Japanese-American male. By education, he was a sociologist. If anyone should have been aware of the effect of subcultures on a population, it would have been him. He was... when I worked with him... quiet and diffident. After one year as a cop he was about the same. After two years, he was transformed: Not only had he physically bulked up and adopted "the stance" (feet apart, arms crossed) he openly bragged about breaking headlights or tail lights in order to issue what the Montebello PD called "AH" tickets. In other words, if you "dissed" the police in any way, you'd pay... one way or another. Also, my friendship with others who DON'T fit "the demographic" tells me that "rules of engagement" are so flexible as to be meaningless.
In other words, the PDs (and other security agencies) pretty much make up the rules as they go along. And they have MANY sets of rules: one for old white ladies, one for young Hispanics, one for this neighborhood and another for that
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Let's party like it's 1929.
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Quote:That’s right. They extend non-lethal force into a region where previously guns were the only option. That does not mean they are an alternative to guns. They cannot replace guns. When lethal force is necessary, you cannot use a taser. BUT prior to tasers, lethal force or the threat of lethal force was often the only avenue available when the situation called for NON-lethal force. Tasers are an alternative to physical restraint - they do not and they cannot replace lethal force; they simple provide the option of non-lethal in a situation where non-lethal is called for.
Originally posted by rue:
"Tasers are not alternatives to the use of guns."
But that's exactly how they are marketed by the company that makes them:
According to Taser International (the company that manufactures tasers), tasers are a non-lethal alternative to deadly force. (And what might that 'deadly force' be one could ask himself ? The answer would be guns.) And that's how they are justified when the city councils debate whether or not to spend the money to buy them for their police. Rather than have to deal with police-involved shootings, tasers keep police protected without the legal hassles of guns. Or so the sales pitch goes.
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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Quote:I think the police are aware that different situations call for different responses. I don’t think the police apply the same rules across the board, nor do I think they should. How an officers deals with an 80 year old woman in a relatively safe neighborhood should be completely different from how they deal with a 25 year man in a rough neighborhood. I don’t really see anything wrong with that.
Originally posted by SignyM:
In other words, the PDs (and other security agencies) pretty much make up the rules as they go along. And they have MANY sets of rules: one for old white ladies, one for young Hispanics, one for this neighborhood and another for that
Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.
Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.
-- Cicero
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