capitalism, by definition, is a stupid and foolish human system

POSTED BY: 1kiki
UPDATED: Monday, January 13, 2025 18:50
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1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 12:13 AM

What do I think of as intelligent, the opposite of stupid? I think it means being able to look at a wide range of information and to examine it in its own right - without reference to our own fears and wishes - to reach an understanding of what it is. So for example, not looking on solar eclipses as portents from gods regarding our human fortunes, but as celestial mechanisms running in their own way. In that regard, capitalism is extremely stupid. It looks at the entire universe of data and asks only one human-related question - can it make a profit? That makes it incredibly stupid.

And what do I think of a wise, the opposite of foolish? It means looking at the range of information we've gotten through our intelligence, and understanding what does it mean for us. In that regard, capitalism is extremely foolish, because having looked at only one question - can it make a profit? - it automatically concludes it should be done. That makes it incredibly foolish.

So why do we trust our lives to this stupid and foolish human system?

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 12:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So why do we trust our lives to this stupid and foolish human system?

What? Why do you think? Because RICH FOLK.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 12:22 AM

There are a lot of NON-rich folk who - worse than believing this is the way things should be as opposed to any other system - don't even cognate that there ARE different systems, that things have been different in history, are different around the globe, and will be different in the future. Are you saying that rich folk determine our beliefs?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 12:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Are you saying that rich folk determine our beliefs?

Oh, of course. They HAVE to. And when they fail a bit, hey- another WAR takes care of that!
What the hell was 'too big to fail' all about? The belief that we need to save our Capitalist system- the ONLY system that works for us!
We prostrate ourselves before our Capitalist God, even as he loses his balance & threatens to fall & crush us.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 12:58 AM

You have a flair for images!

How do you think we're taught this?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 1:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

How do you think we're taught this?

Traditionally, we are shown the dangers of non-Capitalism. Look at the cold war & the whole Red scare thing... make anything non-Capitalist scary & dangerous. Make the center Left.
Talk to anyone from not-the-U.S. & they'll tell ya how convoluted our system is.
Bread & circuses.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 1:37 AM

Hm. OK. let me put that up against my personal observations. people to hate first then 'systems'. makes sense to me. kids understand 'sides' before they understand reasons. people to hate - blacks, hispanics, and in another time and place jews, now replaced with muslims. learned very early. us and them mentality, turned into an us versus them mentality. later more distant less visible and more abstract versions of 'them'. commies. at the same time an us mentality fostered. flags parades pledges etc. simple associative conditioning. country = exciting compelling events. later generalized into an all-purpose sense of righteousness to which anything can be attached. usa!usa!usa!

also to hate - knowledge. facts. thinking. mostly associated with ideal/ non-ideal male characteristics. thinking = effete. you want to be one of us, not them. hmmm. come to think of it also associated with ideal/ non-ideal female characteristics. thinking = mannish. -parenthetically thank god i was raised by immigrants who didn't have that value *at all*-

from whence it comes. parents born and raised in the system. disdain for others/ knowledge leads to inability to learn new information or even direct experience. self-sustaining propagandizing. and also - lack of visible debate. a media function.

so, it propagates in part by parents who teach it, by peers who enforce it, by intentional promotion/ demonization by government, and by media selection of vision of who we are; is absorbed due to a desire to belong to the group.

this is as far as i get. need to think more.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:09 AM

Your basic divide & conquer (control).

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 3:00 AM

I need to think about that. I think it's based on what is a deep-seated basic human survival mechanism, which is to form groups; and to work out our other drives within the group and between groups rather than be unaffiliated to any group, or to have humanity as unaffiliated individuals.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

AURAPTOR

Sunday, June 15, 2014 3:17 AM

Best system there is, so this thread is stupid and foolish.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 3:23 AM

Thanks for the thread bump.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 3:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I need to think about that. I think it's based on what is a deep-seated basic human survival mechanism

A long time ago when we were kids one of my best friends stunned me. No, not with a phaser, with this statement:
"A man needs a friend, a woman and an enemy in this world."
Back then we just laughed him off, but today I can see the conditioning he was so clearly verbalizing.
Like how a Bond movie can generally be judged in quality by how dangerous the villain is.
Survival depends on our ability to identify dangers to us. When there IS no danger, we just keep on looking for it. Behavioural experts know this, and have been using it for a long time.
Say, you know those Indians in Montana? The ones won't give us their land? They kidnap & rape our women, too! That's the last straw!!
See, you can make up enemies anywhere, especially if they have something you want.
Just like sex. We don't need it all that bad to survive as a species now, but man does it sell tabloids & toothpaste!
Take a Human trait, figure it out, & make it work for you, and you too can rule a chunk of the world.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 3:41 AM

THANKS. We come to this topic from different perspectives and histories and it's always a good thing to learn new things!

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:08 AM

I got more words.

Think of Capitalism as a strong boxer in the world ring. Comes out slugging. Opponent can't win, but won't go down. Our guy kicks the opponent, and the referee asks what's up. Our guy explains that it's not Boxing, but it works once in a while, and since the ref was bought prior to the match, he just nods. Then our guy has pepper put on his glove, and uses it to blind the opponent, the ref asks what's up. Our guy says he has no knowledge who put it on his glove or why. Ref nods. Suddenly, our guy is all out of energy. He is replaced by our guy II, who proceeds to pummel the opponent into unconsciousness.

Capitalism WINS!!!

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:11 AM

And Capitalism isn't foolish. It's a shrewd system for the maintenance of a class of people.

THGRRI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:29 AM

Capitalism, by definition, is a stupid and foolish human system:

That's why I am a:

a: Capitalist

b: Socialist

Care to answer the question?

si shen

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:31 AM

false dilemma

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:36 AM

"And Capitalism isn't foolish. It's a shrewd system for the maintenance of a class of people."

But big-picture wise? State of the planet, sustainability, survival? Very foolish imo.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
But big-picture wise? State of the planet, sustainability, survival? Very foolish imo.

Oh, you mean for us, the little peeps? Yeah, it a bad path for the most part, no doubt.
Capitalism should be a tool in the tool box, not the tool box itself.

THGRRI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"And Capitalism isn't foolish. It's a shrewd system for the maintenance of a class of people."

But big-picture wise? State of the planet, sustainability, survival? Very foolish imo.

I actually agree with you. I just don't see the point in lashing out without suggesting how to address some of the mess and unfairness of capitalism. Because Socialism doesn't work either.

si shen

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 4:45 AM

Bruce Lee showed us the way...

JONGSSTRAW

Sunday, June 15, 2014 5:48 AM

Jeet Kune Do - Way of the Intercepting Fist

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 7:55 AM

Yes.
What works.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 8:28 AM

But - uhm - so many people don't know much. In fact, they believe what they've been told rather than look at the facts. If people are to be free, how do you reverse and prevent them from being misled?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 8:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
But - uhm - so many people don't know much. In fact, they believe what they've been told rather than look at the facts. If people are to be free, how do you reverse and prevent them from being misled?

I really don't see a way. Just look at AURaptor... his fear & need for an enemy... his excuse for previous wrongs committed by his 'side' and his condemnation of the present dickwad admin for simply doing the same... he's a prefect example of divide & conquer, and no facts or attempts at a balanced view or discussion will cause him to *think* in any way.
It's how it's always been.
They own us.

On the brighter side, we have cool smartphones & shit now!

I like a little bread with my circus.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 9:02 AM

SERIOUS topic ... HUGE lol.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:57 PM

The only system that can ever work is one with a serious amount of balances and checks on it.

GEEZER

Sunday, June 15, 2014 9:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

It (capitalism) looks at the entire universe of data and asks only one human-related question - can it make a profit?

So you're assuming that anyone who runs a capitalist enterprise is interested only in making a profit? That they might not also be interested in benefiting their employees or their locality or the environment or education, etc.?

Seems a sort of either/or view of the world and people on your part.

Also violates Number 6 of Chris' Ten Commandments of Logic: Thou shall not reduce the argument down to two possibilities. (false dichotomy)

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58200

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 10:15 PM

That is the very premise of capitalism. Those who do not make THE MOST profit will succumb to those that do.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Sunday, June 15, 2014 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
So you're assuming that anyone who runs a capitalist enterprise is interested only in making a profit?

Thanks for breaking rule #4 here.

1KIKI

Sunday, June 15, 2014 11:45 PM

Magons

I don't know if your country has been infiltrated with US-style capitalism yet. You seem to still have a social compact between citizens and government as a counterpoint to capitalism. But here we have what I think of as malignant capitalism, which has reached its tentacles into everything. At this point government exists to serve business.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2014 2:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
At this point government exists to serve business.

To an alarming degree, yes.
Business has always found friends in local & national politics, but now more than ever there's a more or less indirect ownership of government.

My Son made an interesting comment today- he said pure Capitalism would be perfect for everyone as long as no unscrupulous persons participated in the system....

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 3:19 AM

I'm not sure I agree. I suspect it's not a matter of doing it right, because it seems to be a fundamentally flawed system. Capitalism is about making a profit from the investment of money (capital) into owning the means of production. The goal of capitalism isn't to fill a need, or provide a service, or nurture the environment, or care for the people or anything except make a profit by any means necessary ... and then leverage that profit into greater profit. If that means building deeply inadequate nuclear reactors in an earthquake zone, or selling suspect chemicals by the tens of thousands, or paying starvation wages - so be it. It's the stupidity and foolishness I was referencing in my opening post. You can't have JUST capitalism. By itself I think it is a destructive and self-destructive system.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2014 3:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'm not sure I agree. I suspect it's not a matter of doing it right, because it seems to be a fundamentally flawed system.

It's the stupidity and foolishness I was referencing in my opening post. You can't have JUST capitalism. By itself I think it is a destructive and self-destructive system.

Well, this depends on your concept of Capitalism in the first place, and also on the participants, as my Son said.
My concept of Capitalism is profit building through fair business. If all Capitalists had this as their definition, it would not be self destructive. The business of government should be making Capitalism adhere to this concept (the same way it makes you adhere to speed limits). Unfortunately, Capitalism has the means (money) to buy get-out-of-restriction-free cards. This makes the self destruction possible- the ultimate goal of unrestricted selfish Capitalism is ONE man with everything, and all others with just enough to survive servicing him.

THGRRI

Monday, June 16, 2014 3:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'm not sure I agree. I suspect it's not a matter of doing it right, because it seems to be a fundamentally flawed system.
It's the stupidity and foolishness I was referencing in my opening post. You can't have JUST capitalism. By itself I think it is a destructive and self-destructive system.

I agree, what we need do, is get those with it all out of the process of writing the laws that protect their greed. It is not our congressmen who write the laws but corporate lobbyists. Why, because it is not us that elects our congressmen it is Lobbyists and their money. We desperately need good campaign finance laws and to let bipartisan judges fix all the redistricting that lend to congressmen listening to the radical few.

si shen

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 4:39 AM

"If all Capitalists had this as their definition, it would not be self destructive."

Ultimately I think it would be, even if people weren't being rapaciously greedy and only a little bit greedy.

Profit is the difference between what you pay the person who does the work and what you sell the product for. In capitalism the person who makes the Mercedes, by definition, can't afford to buy it. Maybe they can afford a Yaris. The person who makes the Yaris can't buy one. Maybe they buy a bicycle. The person who makes the bicycle buys shoes. And the person who makes the shoes ...

And every time the cycle goes around on every item, profit gets sipped out of the system until all of the money is in the hands of the profiters and none in the hands of the workers.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2014 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Profit is the difference between what you pay the person who does the work and what you sell the product for. In capitalism the person who makes the Mercedes, by definition, can't afford it.

That's a valid & contemporary definition of Capitalism all right. As it exists today, at its core, it is pure economic violence, adorned with systematic resource destruction.
All for the sake of having too much.

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 5:02 AM

"All for the sake of having too much." Interesting concept. I need to think on it.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, June 16, 2014 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Magons

I don't know if your country has been infiltrated with US-style capitalism yet. You seem to still have a social compact between citizens and government as a counterpoint to capitalism. But here we have what I think of as malignant capitalism, which has reached its tentacles into everything. At this point government exists to serve business.

The most depressing aspect of our current government is the enthusiasm for which it embraces the characteristics of the failed state of the USA.

Just slashed funding for education, health, welfare and the elderly in what has been one of the least popular budgets of all time. Even my right winged leaning friend/s hates it. And that's saying something.

It's got tea party fervour stamped all over it, an imported ideology that doesn't fit with this nation. Mind you, we've been pushed down that path by successive governments since the 80's, of both 'spectrums' if you can call the tweedle dee tweedle dum of choice a spectrum.

A classic example. Last government wanted to introduce a super profits tax for mining companies.

Quote:
The Minerals Resource Rent Tax (MRRT) is a tax on profits generated from the exploitation of non-renewable resources in Australia.[1] It was a replacement for the proposed Resource Super Profit Tax (RSPT).

The tax, levied on 30% of the "super profits" from the mining of iron ore and coal in Australia, was introduced on 1 July 2012.[1] A company was to pay the tax when its annual profits reach $75 million, a measure designed so as not to burden small business.[2] The original threshold was to be $50 million until independent MP Andrew Wilkie negotiated an amendment.[3] Around 320 companies will potentially be affected by the changes.[4]

On 24 October 2013, the new coalition government announced a plan to repeal the tax, citing its belief that the tax never raised anywhere near what was predicted, had led to negative impacts on investment in mining projects, and resulted in significant compliance costs. Treasurer Joe Hockey asserted that the repeal of this tax will save the government $13.4 billion.[5] A January 2014 poll conducted by UMR Research, however, found that a majority of Australians still think that multinational mining companies do not pay enough tax. [6] Supporters of the tax also point to continually-large profits produced by Australian-based mining operations, 83% of which are foreign-owned.

Yeah, repealed after a massive marketing campaign by the mining companies who manage to sell their hokey message of 'it's good for the working man bullshit' when really all the profits go to those of this ilk.

Unlike, say Norway which uses revenue from its heavily taxed resources to invest money for infrastructure.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/19/mining-tax-its-ti
me-for-all-australians-to-realise-they-are-being-ripped-off

Well, who do you think we followed.....

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2014 6:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The most depressing aspect of our current government is the enthusiasm for which it embraces the characteristics of the failed state of the USA.

Hey baby, the USA has not failed. It successfully sucked the money up & funnelled it to the 1% where it belongs. Australia is just getting smart like us.

Okay, bad AURaptor impression...

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, June 16, 2014 6:38 AM

Rappy is your sockpuppet. It's official.

You've been insulting yourself over the internet for the last 8 years. Silly British Man.

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2014 7:04 AM

I am a very sick individual...

GEEZER

Monday, June 16, 2014 7:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
So you're assuming that anyone who runs a capitalist enterprise is interested only in making a profit?
Thanks for breaking rule #4 here.

How so?

Rule #4: Thou shall not argue your position by assuming one of its premises is true. (Begging the question)

Kiki states that the only motivation for a capitalist is making profit, and when I question that statement, repeats it.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
That is the very premise of capitalism. Those who do not make THE MOST profit will succumb to those that do.

This would seem to indicate that 1KIKI does not believe that capitalists from Bill Gates to the Koch brothers do not give multi-millions of dollars to various charities, because making less that the maximum profit would cause them to lose. It would also indicate that all capitalists do absolutely the minimum for their employees and communities. Do you consider tis to be true?

Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you? In 1KIKI's world there aren't.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 8:13 AM

Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you? In 1KIKI's world there aren't.

Well, after locking out their employees during a labor negotiation then being fined $25M by the state for illegal pricing, my Ralph's here finally closed down. If it hadn't been for the state, I'm sure they'd still be doing what they'd been doing. Then there's my TJs where I shop often and talk with the employees. The prices may be lower but the employees are getting screwed. Then there's the Albertson's nearby - I truly don't know how they kept the place alive while Ralph's was open - their prices are atrocious - but now that Ralph's is closed, people have to shop there because it's quite literally the only game in town when it comes to grocery stores.

Those are your choices to pick from, because those are my choices.

So now, tell me Geezer, which of those places is your 'good guy' capitalist?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 8:30 AM

Magon's

Your country has a fairly decent history of government representing its people. Since the benefits were sharply reduced, and government policy seems to be favoring corporations in favor of people, do you sense a political push-back starting?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, June 16, 2014 8:41 AM

*sigh*

I don't feel very optimistic. The voting public is basically pretty stupid. People vote on personality and what's best for their hip pocket. Basically we vote governments out and not in. The last lot - leftish leaning - pissed everyone off by their in house fighting and daring to have a woman in charge so people voted in Tony 'The Mad Monk' Abbott because he's a bloke and that's more comfy for people. He's a climate change denier, wants to do a slash on government expenditure, worsen working conditions, kow tow to business. The usual depressing stuff. All renewable energy funding cut. His treasurer thinks that wind farms are ugly, for chissake.

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 8:48 AM

This bloke?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, June 16, 2014 9:00 AM

aaaarrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

please post warnings before disturbing images

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 9:32 AM

imagine very very small font ... so sorry ...

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2014 9:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Kiki states that the only motivation for a capitalist is making profit

If you don't make profit above & beyond your competitors, you risk a hostile takeover. Making profit is #1 for Capitalism, like breathing is #1 for Humans.
All capitalists do NOT do absolutely the minimum for their employees and communities. But they are risking much by doing good. Which in these economic times makes them less pure Capitalists & more good business people.
Good business people will fail in the EconoWars.

GEEZER

Monday, June 16, 2014 5:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Kiki states that the only motivation for a capitalist is making profit

If you don't make profit above & beyond your competitors, you risk a hostile takeover. Making profit is #1 for Capitalism, like breathing is #1 for Humans.
All capitalists do NOT do absolutely the minimum for their employees and communities. But they are risking much by doing good. Which in these economic times makes them less pure Capitalists & more good business people.
Good business people will fail in the EconoWars.

Hmm.

Then this article can't be true.

Quote:
Starbucks to pay college fees for US staff

Starbucks offers US employees the opportunity to earn a bachelor's degree

US coffee chain firm Starbucks will pay college fees for US workers to complete a bachelor's degree online in a tie-up with Arizona State University.

US employees of the firm who work at least 20 hours a week are eligible for the Starbucks College Achievement Plan.

Starbucks staff who are successfully enrolled will receive partial tuition for the first two years, and full tuition for their final two years.

The annual fee for online courses at the university can exceed $10,000.

After they've completed their bachelor's degree, the employees are not obligated to return to employment with Starbucks.

Starbucks staff looking to attend college online at Arizona State University (ASU) can choose from about 40 programmes including business, engineering, education and retail management.

'New precedent'

In a statement posted on its website, the university said the initiative was designed to 'support the nearly 50% of college students in the United States today who fail to complete their degrees due to mounting debt, a tenuous work-life balance and a lack of support.'

In that same statement, Howard Schultz, chairman and president at Starbucks said: "There's no doubt, the inequality within the country has created a situation where many Americans are being left behind. The question for all of us is, should we accept that, or should we try and do something about it.

Supporting our partners' ambitions is the very best investment Starbucks can make. Everyone who works as hard as our partners do should have the opportunity to complete college, while balancing work, school and their personal lives."

Debt load

In addition to the financial aid, students who are admitted under the college plan will also have a dedicated enrolment coach, financial aid counsellor and academic advisor to support them through graduation.

Michael M. Crow, President at the Arizona State University said that Starbucks was "establishing a new precedent for the responsibility and role of a public company that leads through the lens of humanity and supports its partners' life goals with access to education."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27863656

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 11:01 PM

Geezer, you asked me a question and I answered. Have you no opinion to offer? Or are you going to bail on it because - yanno - you have no answer?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Monday, June 16, 2014 11:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Then this article can't be true.

Left wing fantasy nonsense.

1KIKI

Monday, June 16, 2014 11:50 PM

Chris,isall

I actually took a look at their programs. http://asuonline.asu.edu/online-degree-programs/undergraduate There were lots of english, history, business, management, communication, art and other 'soft' degrees (33 by my count). There were only three areas where people might get well-paying degree-related jobs afterwards - nursing, computer, and electrical engineering.

Now, the nursing degree would be some trick to get online, as it requires hands-on training. But looking closer, it's an RN to BSN conversion - you already have to have had your practical instruction. The computer-related degrees are non-accredited. The electrical engineering is accredited and I think is do-able online (unlike chemistry, physics, biology and other physical sciences which require hands-on instruction), but then I read the reviews of said program. How many years, how many transcripts, and how many fees do you think it takes to get enrolled? Take your wildest guess and I don't think it would be bad enough.

Now, the online EE degree is ~550 per credit hour, or for a modest course load of 4 classes per semester, over 17,000 per year. Of that, Starbucks promises to pay 'some' for the first two years. How much? Not sure. $100 would be 'some'. You could take advantage of the Starbucks offer and still end up with lots of debt.

There's the tie-in to ASU online degrees specifically. If people had their choice of university and program it would be, I think a far more meaningful - and helpful - offer. (it also makes me wonder what mutual agreements have been worked out between the two entities.)

And finally, I wonder if it's been arranged to be at least a partial write-off for Starbucks. After all, this is a business that took a huge hit after 2008, 'Starbucks to cut up to 12,000 jobs, close 600 stores' in 2008, and 'Starbucks Will Close 300 More Stores' and 'Starbucks to cut up 6700 jobs, close more stores as profit falls' in 2009.

It's far far FAR less than Geezer makes it out to be. Considering the average worker makes the minimum wage or slightly above http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Starbucks-Salaries-E2202.htm the workers there would be better off with a pay increase.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:03 AM

AH, the REAL reason Starbucks is being so 'generous' - unionization

Why are Starbucks Workers Joining a Union?

Starbucks Workers Need to>Rise Out of Poverty

The idea that Starbucks workers are paid fairly is a myth created by the company’s public relations machine. Starbucks workers in the United States earn as little $7 or $8 per hour depending on the location.

On top of the low wage, every single barista in the United States is part-time and not guaranteed any work hours per week. For example, a Starbucks employee can get 35 hours of work one week, 22 hours the week after, and 10 hours the following week. Combine the low-wage with the fluctuating hours and you get a very bleak financial picture for Starbuck workers despite Starbucks’ $23 billion market value and rapid growth. Apparently, a net worth of over a billion dollars is not enough for Starbucks Chairman Howard Schultz.

Starbucks Workers Deserve Health Care Coverage

The single greatest myth constructed by Starbucks about working for the company involves health care. But in reality Starbucks is far from being a leader in employee health care. Starbucks insures a lower percentage of its workforce than Wal-Mart a company rightly condemned for its poor health care policies. Starbucks’ 42% is not only worse than Wal-Mart’s 47%, it’s also worse than the industry average!

The barriers to health care for employees are two-fold. First, employees must work 240 hours per quarter to qualify to purchases health care through the company. Keep in mind however, that with no full-time workers and no guaranteed work hours, qualifying to purchase health care is far from assured. Second, workers must pay significant premiums, co-pays, and deductibles to participate in the health care plan. The poverty pay package makes these out-of-pocket expenses a difficult proposition indeed.

Starbucks Workers Require a Sufficiently Staffed and Safe Working Environment

Starbucks baristas work at a relentless pace to meet extraordinary customer demand. If management scheduled an appropriate numbers of workers on the shop floor, workers would not have to work at such an unsafe speed with very hot beverages. The Starbucks work environment is also chock full of ergonomic dangers. The combination of the unduly brisk pace and the ergonomic inadequacies result in repetitive strain injuries like carpal tunnel syndrome for many Starbucks workers.

Starbucks Workers Have a Right to the Respect that Comes With an Independent Voice on the Job

The work life of employees at multinational retailers like Starbucks is characterized by innumerable abuses. Disrespectful managers and managers who treat workers like children are not uncommon. Schedules are often made without consideration for a workers’ need to a healthy sleep schedule. Starbucks requires workers to call around the city to get a shift covered when ill or in bereavement.

Joining a union is how workers exercise their right to free association on the job. The act of standing together with one’s co-workers goes beyond wages and working conditions; solidarity goes to the inherent dignity of working people. A union is how workers have their own voice both on the job and in society. Finally, joining a fighting union is a great way to connect with the global movement for justice.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:04 AM

So hey there Geezer - still no answer?

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:05 AM

Good spadework, 1kiki.

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:14 AM

That's allot of info 1kiki. Must have taken a lot of work. Not sure I followed it all but here is my take on Starbucks philosophy.

It used to be a company had to offer a benefits package and retirement plan to attract workers. It sounds like Starbucks is doing just that to get the quality worker it wants. If you want to attract people into your stores who can afford to pay for expensive coffee, which is their bread and butter. It would make sense to hire those with the same qualities as your patrons to work there. You need a way to attract them while offering something less costly to the company like better wages. After all, these will be your future customers and employees so why not indoctrinate them to Starbucks earlier. It’s just business as usual.

Bing Dictionary
at•tract 1.entice somebody: to be appealing enough to make people visit a place or spend their money

I would add work there.

si shen

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:37 AM

Onus probandi

There ya go, hon.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:40 AM

This country has run this way since the great depression. Must be you are from somewhere else precious?

si shen

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:45 AM

Meanwhile, Geezer issued a challenge that surely some of the local merchants I deal with must be good capitalists. So I gave him a breakdown of my local grocery stores: A Ralph's, now closed, that locked out its employees during contract negotiations and was fined $25M by the state for illegal pricing (which is why they are now closed), a TJs which is a specialty store that screws its workers, and the only general grocery store Albertson's, which charges exorbitant prices for essential goods.

I asked him to name the good capitalist out of my available choices of local merchants.

Instead, he shifted the goal posts (a trick he often employs), and has so far failed to answer my question.

I'm still waiting.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:49 AM

Why not let him chose his own list? Why does it have to be yours? Unless you want to narrow the playing field?

si shen

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 12:55 AM

Go to Trader Joe's or the Arrow market.

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:29 AM

Chris,isall

I actually do a lot of my shopping at TJs due to prices. But as a store it has its limits, it's not a full service grocery store. And as an employer it treats its workers badly - inconsistent hours, not enough hours AND ... People start at minimum wage and get $.50/ hour raise every 6 months. Consequently, it pays management to treat the more experienced workers badly, to get them to move on. As I chat with many of the employees, I hear what goes on. And I see it in the turnover - I can only think of one part-timer who's still there from 3 years ago. The vast majority are gone by 2. All to save $2.00 - 3.00 per hour. I think I'd actually have to work there to understand the ins and out of their benefits, because it's not WYSIWYG. (For example the Starbucks claims it offers benefits. But the health insurance, which sounds great in theory - is full of restrictions, costs, and exclusions: you need to work 20+ hours per week, as an at will employee you can't count on those hours, the premiums and copays are high, and the coverage poor.) As a business overall, I don't know how environmentally friendly they are, I don't know if they offshore any of the money or avoid taxes, I don't know if they buy from overseas underpaid labor - there are a lot of avenues for corporate malfeasance that I haven't explored. I can say pretty definitely, as an employer they suck. I'm not sure if you would call that being one of the capitalist 'good guys'.

As for Arrow Market, there is none I know of. There is a mom-and-pop liquor/ select items store a couple of blocks from me (Jim's Market ...)

AH - there USED to be an Arrow Market but they closed down after the Albertson's was built.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:34 AM

Geezer

Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you? In 1KIKI's world there aren't.

TH

Why not let him chose his own list? Why does it have to be yours? Unless you want to narrow the playing field?

shifting the goalposts

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:35 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/jun/16/first-dog
-data

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:40 AM

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:42 AM

Meanwhile, Geezer issued a challenge that surely some of the local merchants I deal with must be good capitalists. So I gave him a breakdown of my local grocery stores: A Ralph's, now closed, that locked out its employees during contract negotiations and was fined $25M by the state for illegal pricing (which is why they are now closed), a TJs which is a specialty store that screws its workers, and the only general grocery store Albertson's, which charges exorbitant prices for essential goods.

I asked him to name the good capitalist out of my available choices of local merchants.

Instead, he shifted the goal posts (a trick he often employs), and has so far failed to answer my question.

I'm still waiting.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/jun/16/first-dog
-data

Wow MD, Your country is basically the U.S. with a cooler accent....

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Geezer

Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you? In 1KIKI's world there aren't.

TH

Why not let him chose his own list? Why does it have to be yours? Unless you want to narrow the playing field?

Quote:

Changing the goal posts.

Nope, just making sure you don't set the parameters with which others are allowed to reply.

si shen

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Geezer, you asked me a question and I answered. Have you no opinion to offer? Or are you going to bail on it because - yanno - you have no answer?

Just wanted to confirm that you are going to stereotype anyone who runs a business in which they have invested their capital - be it money, time, skills, etc. - as interested in only profit to the exclusion of everything else.

You didn't disappoint.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 3:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Good spadework, 1kiki.

No links to sources, though.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:13 AM

Meanwhile, Geezer issued a challenge that surely some of the local merchants I deal with must be good capitalists. So I gave him a breakdown of my local grocery stores: A Ralph's, now closed, that locked out its employees during contract negotiations and was fined $25M by the state for illegal pricing (which is why they are now closed), a TJs which is a specialty store that screws its workers, and the only general grocery store Albertson's, which charges exorbitant prices for essential goods.

In DIRECT RESPONSE to his post "Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you?" I asked him to name the good capitalist out of my available choices of local merchants.

Instead, he shifted the goal posts (a trick he often employs), and has so far failed to answer my question.

I'm still waiting.

Originally posted by Geezer:
Just wanted to confirm that you are going to stereotype anyone who runs a business in which they have invested their capital - be it money, time, skills, etc. - as interested in only profit to the exclusion of everything else.

You didn't disappoint.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:16 AM

1kiki , Capitalism, by definition, is a stupid and foolish human system

This is the thread title. It sounds more like a bitch fest without suggesting what your alternative is. Capitalism promotes progress. History suggests it inspires creativity like no way has in the past.
Some of the key concepts relating to an analysis of the effects of capitalism on culture are profit motive, commodity, human desire, and the market economy. The capitalist system is based on private ownership and consolidation of the means of production, where the production of commodities is guided by profit motive to satisfy human desires.

What capitalism does do is it encourages people, in general, to engage in activity that is deemed valuable by other people. This is what many people see as capitalism’s most positive attribute, and indeed this is an extremely important factor in the ways in which the capitalist system has been successful.

The key is private ownership. Unless you think everything should be government owned, do you?
What needs to be addressed is the distribution of assets in this process. There are a lot of ways to go about it and it will take a revolt of sorts. Other things that need to be addressed is it's insatiable appetite with which it consumes our resources and pollutes.

What 1kiki would you put in its place? Or did you just want to create a place to tear something down without an alternative idea?

si shen

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Good spadework, 1kiki.

No links to sources, though.

You're right.
1kiki, give me back the money I paid you to get answers for me; this project now gets a D-.

Oh, and Geeze, why won't you answer her question-?

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:26 AM

TH
Burden of proof
Hasty generalization
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:28 AM

Which links did I fail to provide? I linked the online program and Starbucks wages and benefits ...

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:29 AM

I'm sorry 1kiki I think you missed my post about what alternative system you would put in place?

si shen

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:33 AM

My reply:

Burden of proof
Hasty generalization
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:35 AM

Meanwhile, Geezer issued a challenge that surely some of the local merchants I deal with must be good capitalists. So I gave him a breakdown of my local grocery stores: A Ralph's, now closed, that locked out its employees during contract negotiations and was fined $25M by the state for illegal pricing (which is why they are now closed), a TJs which is a specialty store that screws its workers, and the only general grocery store Albertson's, which charges exorbitant prices for essential goods.

In DIRECT RESPONSE to his post "Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you?" I asked him to name the good capitalist out of my available choices of local merchants.

Instead, he shifted the goal posts (a trick he often employs), and has so far failed to answer my question.

Instead, he posted this straw man that, as a straw man, doesn't accurately represent my point

Originally posted by Geezer:
Just wanted to confirm that you are going to stereotype anyone who runs a business in which they have invested their capital - be it money, time, skills, etc. - as interested in only profit to the exclusion of everything else.

You didn't disappoint.

I'm still waiting for him to name the good capitalist out of my available choices of local merchants.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
I'm sorry 1kiki I think you missed my post about what alternative system you would put in place?

I'll tag-team an answer (not necessarily hers though):
The best alternative is to mix Capitalism with Anarchism. Take the best from both & add in other elements from Socialism or wherever that WORK.

1KIKI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 5:05 AM

I think one answer is to limit profit to payback of initial investment plus accrued interest over the time the current amount of money is still outstanding, rather than have it as a 'free money' card ad infinitum.

Meanwhile, Geezer, I'm still waiting.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 6:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
I'm sorry 1kiki I think you missed my post about what alternative system you would put in place?

I'll tag-team an answer (not necessarily hers though):
The best alternative is to mix Capitalism with Anarchism. Take the best from both & add in other elements from Socialism or wherever that WORK.

That is an answer I’ll give you that. I read the definition of anarchism and I see it as capitalism run amuck. No one to answer to at all. Like a bunch of Kings and Queens all over again. Who would make sure those with the most didn’t abuse those who have less. Even with governments we can’t seem to constrain the wealthy amongst us from taking more than what they deserve. Or asking more from the labor force more than it is willing to pay for.

ANARCHISM 1 : a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable

si shen

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 6:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
ANARCHISM 1 : a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable

Not MY definition. This:

Quote:
an·ar·chism
noun
belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.

But to a degree. Another tool. Another elemental idea to be integrated into the New Way.

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
ANARCHISM 1 : a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable

Not MY definition. This:
an·ar·chism
'an?r?kiz?m/
noun
noun: anarchism

belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.

Ok but how about something that can really happen as opposed to something that will not. When ever there is a group, someone dominates.

si shen

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I think one answer is to limit profit to payback of initial investment plus accrued interest over the time the current amount of money is still outstanding, rather than have it as a 'free money' card ad infinitum.

Interesting.

Quote:

Meanwhile, Geezer, I'm still waiting.

That's a train don't come.

SHINYGOODGUY

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
What do I think of as intelligent, the opposite of stupid? I think it means being able to look at a wide range of information and to examine it in its own right - without reference to our own fears and wishes - to reach an understanding of what it is. So for example, not looking on solar eclipses as portents from gods regarding our human fortunes, but as celestial mechanisms running in their own way. In that regard, capitalism is extremely stupid. It looks at the entire universe of data and asks only one human-related question - can it make a profit? That makes it incredibly stupid.

And what do I think of a wise, the opposite of foolish? It means looking at the range of information we've gotten through our intelligence, and understanding what does it mean for us. In that regard, capitalism is extremely foolish, because having looked at only one question - can it make a profit? - it automatically concludes it should be done. That makes it incredibly foolish.

So why do we trust our lives to this stupid and foolish human system?

I agree, there are those who believe (and you know who they are) the rather foolish premise:

"The one who dies with the most toys, Wins!"

They care not who they step on, torture and ruin. They worship power and they feel that the almighty dollar is their God. For many years they adapted this premise so as not to completely obliterate the slimmest hope that anyone could join the club.

But that is no more. They want to maintain the status quo and further it to the point of extreme exclusion. This is both Foolish and stupid beyond belief.

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
Kris Kristofferson, Me and Bobby McGee, 1969

SGG

THGRRI

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 7:37 AM

Quote:

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
Kris Kristofferson, Me and Bobby McGee, 1969

There's a guy that made a lot of money. Ex Green Bret as well. Hell his father was an Air Force Major General.

si shen

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
there are those who believe (and you know who they are) the rather foolish premise:

"The one who dies with the most toys, Wins!"

They care not who they step on, torture and ruin. They worship power and they feel that the almighty dollar is their God. For many years they adapted this premise so as not to completely obliterate the slimmest hope that anyone could join the club.

But that is no more. They want to maintain the status quo and further it to the point of extreme exclusion. This is both Foolish and stupid beyond belief.

The definition of self-destruction.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

Thanks Ikiki.

Love First Dog on the Moon

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2014/jun/16/first-dog
-data
Wow MD, Your country is basically the U.S. with a cooler accent....

We're the 51st state, dontya know ;?

GEEZER

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Good spadework, 1kiki.

No links to sources, though.

You're right.
1kiki, give me back the money I paid you to get answers for me; this project now gets a D-.

Just following your rules, Chris.

#8: Thou shall not lay the burden of proof on him that is questioning the claim. (Burden of proof reversal).

Quote:
Oh, and Geeze, why won't you answer her question-?

Which one?

ETA: Oh, this one?

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you? In 1KIKI's world there aren't.

Well, after locking out their employees during a labor negotiation then being fined $25M by the state for illegal pricing, my Ralph's here finally closed down. If it hadn't been for the state, I'm sure they'd still be doing what they'd been doing. Then there's my TJs where I shop often and talk with the employees. The prices may be lower but the employees are getting screwed. Then there's the Albertson's nearby - I truly don't know how they kept the place alive while Ralph's was open - their prices are atrocious - but now that Ralph's is closed, people have to shop there because it's quite literally the only game in town when it comes to grocery stores.

Those are your choices to pick from, because those are my choices.

So now, tell me Geezer, which of those places is your 'good guy' capitalist?

The "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question?

The "Who do you admire more, Hitler or Stalin?" question?

Yeah. Right.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, June 17, 2014 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Just following your rules, Chris.

#8: Thou shall not lay the burden of proof on him that is questioning the claim. (Burden of proof reversal).

But the link WAS provided...

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, June 18, 2014 12:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Raising minimum wage sounds great and maybe it would be. Or maybe the cost of goods and services would go up as well. Catch-22.

A Capitalist economy depends on losers. Without losers, there can be no winners.
There can be no (insanely) rich if there are no poor. This is a simple, rock solid fact that many like to deny.
A working version of Capitalism is about tides. Sometimes the poor don't have it so bad at all, sometimes they're hurting. We're moving closer to the non-working version where the poor are growing as a class, and hurting more often than not. The tipping point, if it is not averted, is where the poor are THE ONLY non-rich class, and they are hurting ALL the time. This precipitates violent revolution. Hopefully it will not come to that. What good is being insanely rich in a country that is literally collapsing?

I say it's better to just be really rich & have a secure world in which to flaunt it.

1KIKI

Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:31 AM

"Consumers want to pay less, so businesses have to find ways to make their products for less to compete and stay in business."

There's one foolproof way to do that - reduce profits. But that doesn't happen.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

1KIKI

Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:38 AM

Originally posted by Geezer:
The "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question?
The "Who do you admire more, Hitler or Stalin?" question?
Yeah. Right.

Geezer, may I remind you it was YOUR question? Right here:

Originally posted by Geezer:
"Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you?"

I simply provided the information about the stores I shop at. Given that information, how would you answer your own question?

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Geezer, may I remind you

No, you cannot. He can't remember. It's not an irresponsible thing IMO- he just can't DEAL.

GEEZER

Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Just following your rules, Chris.

#8: Thou shall not lay the burden of proof on him that is questioning the claim. (Burden of proof reversal).

But the link WAS provided...

Where?

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
AH, the REAL reason Starbucks is being so 'generous' - unionization

Why are Starbucks Workers Joining a Union?

Starbucks Workers Need to>Rise Out of Poverty

The idea that Starbucks workers are paid fairly is a myth created by the company’s public relations machine. Starbucks workers in the United States earn as little $7 or $8 per hour depending on the location.

On top of the low wage, every single barista in the United States is part-time and not guaranteed any work hours per week. For example, a Starbucks employee can get 35 hours of work one week, 22 hours the week after, and 10 hours the following week. Combine the low-wage with the fluctuating hours and you get a very bleak financial picture for Starbuck workers despite Starbucks’ $23 billion market value and rapid growth. Apparently, a net worth of over a billion dollars is not enough for Starbucks Chairman Howard Schultz.

Starbucks Workers Deserve Health Care Coverage

The single greatest myth constructed by Starbucks about working for the company involves health care. But in reality Starbucks is far from being a leader in employee health care. Starbucks insures a lower percentage of its workforce than Wal-Mart a company rightly condemned for its poor health care policies. Starbucks’ 42% is not only worse than Wal-Mart’s 47%, it’s also worse than the industry average!

The barriers to health care for employees are two-fold. First, employees must work 240 hours per quarter to qualify to purchases health care through the company. Keep in mind however, that with no full-time workers and no guaranteed work hours, qualifying to purchase health care is far from assured. Second, workers must pay significant premiums, co-pays, and deductibles to participate in the health care plan. The poverty pay package makes these out-of-pocket expenses a difficult proposition indeed.

Starbucks Workers Require a Sufficiently Staffed and Safe Working Environment

Starbucks baristas work at a relentless pace to meet extraordinary customer demand. If management scheduled an appropriate numbers of workers on the shop floor, workers would not have to work at such an unsafe speed with very hot beverages. The Starbucks work environment is also chock full of ergonomic dangers. The combination of the unduly brisk pace and the ergonomic inadequacies result in repetitive strain injuries like carpal tunnel syndrome for many Starbucks workers.

Starbucks Workers Have a Right to the Respect that Comes With an Independent Voice on the Job

The work life of employees at multinational retailers like Starbucks is characterized by innumerable abuses. Disrespectful managers and managers who treat workers like children are not uncommon. Schedules are often made without consideration for a workers’ need to a healthy sleep schedule. Starbucks requires workers to call around the city to get a shift covered when ill or in bereavement.

Joining a union is how workers exercise their right to free association on the job. The act of standing together with one’s co-workers goes beyond wages and working conditions; solidarity goes to the inherent dignity of working people. A union is how workers have their own voice both on the job and in society. Finally, joining a fighting union is a great way to connect with the global movement for justice.

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.
"You, who live

GEEZER

Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Originally posted by Geezer:
The "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question?
The "Who do you admire more, Hitler or Stalin?" question?
Yeah. Right.

Geezer, may I remind you it was YOUR question? Right here:

Originally posted by Geezer:
"Any merchants in your neighborhood you deal with that seem to be after more than the last cent they can squeeze out of you?"

Yep. and it was addressed to Chris. Haven't seen an answer yet. Maybe I should repeat the question every few hours, increasing the snark every time.

Quote:
I simply provided the information about the stores I shop at.

All the stores you shop at? All the stores in your neighborhood?

No. Just grocery stores.

Sort'a like someone saying "The weather in my town has stayed the same for the last hundred years. Obviously, there's no global warming."

Violation of Rule #3: Thou shall not use small numbers to represent the whole. (Hasty generalization)

Quote:
Given that information, how would you answer your own question?

I've dealt with businesses that do try to get the last penny out of you (usually only once), and I've dealt with others that provide good service and value for money, treat their customers well, and treat their employees well. I go back to these folks time and again.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

THGRRI

Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:19 PM

Good guess G, they do no longer create jobs. They don't create bricks and mortar companies. Mark Zuckerberg bought Whatsapp for 18 billion. The company employees 56 people. Not many jobs there. They shift paper around. It is the best way to make a profit. No overhead. All you have to do is speculate a rise in prices and then sell for higher than your purchase price. It is actually the .01 percent that has been getting it all the last decade.

si shen

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