Gender and Violence and Blame

POSTED BY: Magonsdaughter
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2026 20:14
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BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And the choice is between violence and romance? So the heroine's role in the story is to cling like a vine to the heroic male?

No... Not that I'm aware of. In fact there's a growing trend to have a schlubb boyfriend with a super girlfriend protecting him. Or bossing him around.

What you're talking about is more like garbage like Twilight, and I refuse to even touch that backwards oppressive drivel with a barge pole. At the same time, I can't deny it appears to still appeal to some portion of the population.

Both extremes of gender representations are pretty harmful.

But no, what I meant is, women are used to violence and action in media, some of them even enjoy it. But romance tropes in any media are still kinda kryptonite for a lot of guys. Girls are brought up with stories about princes, Guys are brought up with transformers and GI Joe, you get me?

And as a tomboy, it was a long time before I could see anything with romance tropes in it without feeling really embarrassed and kinda lessened, you know?

I'm sure there are guys who enjoy straight romance stuff, but I think they almost have to hide it because there's still such a strong gender role delineation in society.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:52 PM

BYTE, whether it's about a superhero girlfriend or a superhero boyfriend, it's still about sex and violence. It's so unrealistic that one can hardly say that's it's just an expression of the "real world", and it's so profit-driven that one can hardly claim that it just "gives people what they want".

Let me refer back to Umoja village in Kenya. I'm sure these women never saw this particular solution in the media. It's not violent, it's not corporatist (more cooperative), and it's not individualist. Our brains are trained by repeated exposure to expect certain things and to avoid certain things. We're driven like cattle by the media.

I have two friends who used to belong to the same cooperative with a lot of other well-meaning, highly intelligent and industrious men and women. Now, wouldn't THAT make a story!

BTW- in looking up this village (again!... every time I look it up, it's an internet adventure) I found this

6 Modern Societies Where Women Rule

Quote:
By standard definition, a matriarchy is a “family, group or state governed by a matriarch.” Anthropologists and feminists have since created more specific classifications for female societies, including the matrilineal system. Matrilineality refers not only to tracing one’s lineage through maternal ancestry, it can also refer to a civil system in which one inherits property through the matriline. This often leads to the division of such societies into matrilineal clans, or “matriclans.” Here are a few notable ones that still exist.

http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/132885#ixzz2Gkd3WHp0

ETA: I see you added to your post. I agree that the media reinforces gender stereotypes for the most part (if that's what you're saying)

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:01 PM

Quote:
BYTE, whether it's about a superhero girlfriend or a superhero boyfriend, it's still about sex and violence. It's so unrealistic that one can hardly say that's it's just an expression of the "real world", and it's so profit-driven that one can hardly claim that it just "gives people what they want".

There's probably some truth to that. But I think it's also important to recognize there's a feedback from the consumers since the Hayes Code, and that media has evolved into this from the consumers wanting more boundaries pushed.

Oh man! It occurs to me that we've gone this long and we haven't even discussed Twilight, which is like the grand central intersection for a lot of the subtopics in this conversation!

It's basically a story about two unlikeable characters, where the female alternates between being a doormat, distressed damsel, and occasionally a petty selfish person, and then the much more experienced guy she meets who's dark, brooding, and abusive. It's a modern crappy Bronte story.

Thing is, there's all these vampires and werewolves, and a war between them both, shown in mostly implied violence. But most guys won't even touch those books. Why? Because the bad over done romance stinks up the stories like garlic.

At the same time this suggests there's a troubling part of the population that DOES like the woman clinging to the guy stereotype... And most of them are women.

Quote:
ETA: I see you added to your post. I agree that the media reinforces gender stereotypes for the most part (if that's what you're saying)

Yeah basically.

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:13 PM

Hello,

If you don't like the video games or movies that are out there, and if you don't enjoy the messages they convey, you are free to create video games and movies that convey a message you like.

The recent, explosive popularity of a game called Minecraft demonstrated that people can enjoy the creation of things just as much as they enjoy the destruction of things. However, Minecraft did not inspire a real-life building boom that I know of.

I am not interested in the least on any suggestion of mandating any change to movies, television, or video games that requires them to change their message or alter their format.

I emphatically believe it is possible to enjoy violent movies, television, and video games without becoming violent. I emphatically believe that video games and visual entertainment reflect what people think the public wants to see.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:16 PM

Quote:
At the same time this suggests there's a troubling part of the population that DOES like the woman clinging to the guy stereotype... And most of them are women.

Hello,

Yes. Most guys I know have no use for that tale. Too many women I know eat it up. Brooding dark stalker seems to have unexpectedly wide feminine appeal, coupled with 'two dudes fighting over me.'

But this is clearly not a fault of the shitty films or books. The author clearly tapped into something society wanted to consume.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

BYTEMITE

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 7:24 PM

There's nothing I know in literature that turns off guys faster to a story than the two guys fighting over a girl thing. I really don't know why girls romanticize it so much - in reality it's an extremely dangerous and volatile situation.

Then again, I suppose two girls fighting over a guy is a popular distaff counterpart trope. Or at least mud wrestling is. But it's not actually attractive when anyone acts like that in reality.

But more than that. Guys didn't even read the first Twilight book, where the werewolves and the rival love interest hadn't even made an appearance yet. And I think it's because guys can smell overdone romance stories like that a mile away, and generally it has no appeal to them.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 8:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

The recent, explosive popularity of a game called Minecraft demonstrated that people can enjoy the creation of things just as much as they enjoy the destruction of things.

My Son's absolute favourite game, much to my appreciation.
He does play the violent one as well, but nowhere NEAR as much as Minecraft.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

At the same time this suggests there's a troubling part of the population that DOES like the woman clinging to the guy stereotype... And most of them are women.

I hate stories where women are treated like clinging vines or doormats. Bores the crap out of me.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Magons: as I said to you already, I think you're actually very strong. I've never been in a domestic situation or even experienced psychical abuse from someone I know, but I do know what it's like to have someone play games to try to make you stay with them. That kind of manipulation is very hurtful, and it is really hard to break away. They make you apologize for things that weren't your fault. They tell you you're very important to them, but they don't really care about your opinions or your personal boundaries or your choices, they don't actually care about you as a person. They tell you if you leave, they'll become suicidal, and they try to blame that on you. But you're not responsible for anyone's happiness but your own. And you stand your ground and get yourself away, and months later, they're fine and you know it was an act.

I didn't have anyone telling me that I was worthless though. :(

It's very hard what someone who is abusive will do to someone, it makes a very difficult situation to extricate yourself from, because you don't know what about them is real, if you actually would hurt them (and you care about if you're going to hurt them! After so many times they hurt you!), if they're really abusive. It is very hard to decide, no, this is abusive, and I'm not going to take this anymore.

So I say again, Magons. You're very strong.

Thanks Ms Byte, I appreciate your comments. Yes, I can see I am strong, but it took me a long time to realise it. Happy with a great man for 17 years now, so the past no longer has any hold on me.

Hero's comments didn't hurt me, btw. I just wanted to point out that those sort of attitudes are what keep women shamed and silent about their abuse.

What you have described *is* abuse, even though it isn't physical. Sometimes that stuff is worse, because its hard to name and no one around you gets it. They just think he's lovely etc etc

Twilight and its porno offshoot 50 Shades are a worrying phenomenum, particularly if you are young and foolish and think that love should involve being a doormat.

Sig, I too have issues with violence in video games and films. I don't believe they soothe or relieve tension in any healthy way. You blow people to smithereens to relax, really? How about a run? According to educators, especially early childhood ones, they *do* impact on children's behaviour and shape their play.

The content of screen violence is so much more violent than 20 years ago, so much more graphic and obscene. As a society, our appetite for violent images is certainly increasing, and then there is the whole can of worms of pornography.

But again, like guns, people like this stuff. They don't want any infringements on their invididual liberty to watch and play as much depraved stuff as they choose. So again, we hit a dead end on what people are prepared to change.

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, January 1, 2013 9:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, where WERE we in this thread????

HKCAV, CHRIS, AND TONY IIRC you all defended violent games and movies as "good clean fun". They don't get a "pass" from me because you think they're useful for catharsis and that they don't increase violent crime.

Oh golly. It's weird you got "good clean fun" out of my post about art and it's use and misuse.

Playing tons of first person shooters is, no doubt, fucked up. And no doubt the repetition can condition the mind. And yeah, I would worry about a teenager in my care who spent hour upon hour murdering people in his fantasy life. But I continue to believe that it's a public health issue and not an indicator for violent criminal behavior. I'm just not ready to say that such games are a cause of violence. I consider them a symptom.

One of my best friends in the world, a woman, was for years obsessed with playing first person shooters. She was very good at the headshot. Even just watching her play made me feel ill. I know she comes from a violent childhood, she was an "army brat," and that these games were for her cathartic. Does that mean I think the games are intrinsically cathartic? No. I tried to play them a couple times, but the whole exercise was too ugly and disturbing for me.

I've been interested lately in the divide between people who like horror movies and people who can't stand them. Many women I know are adamantly anti-horror movie. Not so much the men, though I know plenty who aren't fans. I don't like the mindless slasher torture porn kind of movies. I find them numbingly dull and depressing and in the case of the torture crap, of which I've seen perhaps ten whole minutes in a lifetime, heartbreaking and unwatchable. But I'm fascinated by what I call "good" horror movies and stories.

I don't think there's any doubt that the rise in the popularity of torture porn (I mean stuff like "Saw" or "Hostel") coincides with our country's decade long affirmation of torture as "just another tool in the tool box." And I also have absolutely no doubt that the increase in these movies being made and consumed by the public in no way contributed to our government embracing their policy of torture. I tend to see the process like this: people experience violence in their lives. It overwhelms them and causes their psyches to fixate on the issue, making them intensely curious. The movie "Saw" comes out and it's a huge, huge success because people are subconsciously drawn to the subject of torture. Your cynical marketers begin to see the shift in public tastes and exploit it.

What are you proposing we do about the violence in media? Censor it? We have ratings on the games you're talking about, however ineffectual that may be in keeping them out of the hands of children. What more can be done?

Quote:
This may be one of those gender dividing lines... males, on the average, may want to activate their flight-flight hormones. Females may find such activation dangerous. It would be interesting to see by gender who purchases these games and the average levels of violence between purchasers and non-purchasers and between heavy users and non-users.

Is it a cultural gender divide or a genetic one in your view? Our culture is so saturated with violence it's hard to know what the real sources of individual violence are. I think of parents putting their infant child in a dark room and closing the door; listening to their own child cry the way a baby cries when they fear death and letting it go on until the child has lost all hope of rescue, night after night. I think of doctors committing the first act of violence a boy child ever knows by hacking off the skin of the child's penis. Recently it's occurred to me that the curse "fuck you!" may be an unconcious wish that the person "get fucked," in other words, I wonder if it

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