Real World Event Discussions

Gender and Violence and Blame

POSTED BY: Magonsdaughter
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2026 20:14
VIEWED: 35151
PAGE 13 of 31

ANTHONYT

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:00 PM

Hello Cavalier,

I just wanted to be sure you knew that these inserts are not theoretical. They were invented and manufactured.

I didn't want you to think Byte was making it up in some fevered fantasy.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

CHRISISALL

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

I honestly can understand a man - especially a young man full of testosterone - being significantly driven by sexual urges. I can see one being at the point where he really truly would have a difficult time stopping.

Balderdash. No one and I mean NO ONE was a hornier teen & 20-something than I was, and if my partner said so much as "Oh, I forgot I have a test to study for!" that was it; game over. If it's not 100% consensual, it's a turn off. And if it's NOT, then baby, you are with the wrong guy.

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:05 PM

Yeah, and I didn't make up that fucking night at the fucking train station EITHER HK. Even if it didn't end as bad as it ends for some women. Or for some men, if you're one of those who has suffered from this.

In short, that was still uncalled for! AND I AM HELLA PISSED at you. You tell me to shut up! You're no better than the people who did that to you, and that guy who did that to me!

SO FUCK YOU!

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:18 PM

Hey Byte,

I never told you to shut up. You seem to hear "shut up" a lot more often than anyone actually tells you to shut up.

I did not tell you to shut up. I told you--ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did. It was a plea for backing away from wild speculation about prosthetic dentata devices and scenarioizing about what's better, being raped or cutting the guy's dick off and getting killed for it and what would be more satisfying in the end. That level of absurd grandstanding and morbid fantasization is something I expect from a guy like Wulfenstar. Not from anyone in this discussion.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

CHRISISALL

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
You're no better than the people who did that to you, and that guy who did that to me!

Whoah whoah whoah, this runaway train needs a dead man switch!

Deep breaths, people. We're all part of the same crew on this boat.
K?

BYTEMITE

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:25 PM

Quote:
ACTUALLY, I asked EVERYONE, not just you, because several folk were speculating on the effects of a vaginally incertd weapon (VIW)--to please not talk about shit they don't know about as if they did.

Oh? You clearly think I don't know what I'm talking about, and you clearly think I shouldn't talk about shit I don't know about.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DOES THAT MEAN BUT SHUT UP?

Yes, DEAR, I'll shut up and get back in the KITCHEN! Oh yes, I'll stop talking about my silly grandstanding morbid fascination because I don't know ANYTHING about it. It's my very own kind of pornography, you know!

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:29 PM

Well, this thread looks unpleasant.... still I have stuff to add and imma do so.

Imma clip a post from another thread cause I think it may be MORE relevant here.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53674

Quote:
Okay, this is gonna drift from topic, and might run long, but imma expound at length about it cause it revolves around a recent rethinking which I believe answers the question of why the abused kid survival rate is so drastically skewed in regards to gender...

See, humans are biologically hardwired with certain predispositions, and that for you Anthony, a lot of them are survival-related, some perhaps outdated by our society, and some most certainly not, which becomes problematic, sure.

What drives a lot of aberrant behavior in childhood is IMHO the mixed messages that children recieve when what they are being "taught", intentionally or otherwise, comes into conflict with those natural impulses - for example it is the NATURE of humans to share and cooperate, but when one is TAUGHT to be selfish and exploit/abuse/mislead others, it creates all kind of mental static that can manifest as "behavioral problems"... first of this, or usually the first clash, is being taught to lie.

Children have both an inherent honesty, and do *NOT* have the "filters" we have on worldview cause they've not developed them - they actually see the sick homeless guy who never makes it past your consciousness, they see the "wrong" in situations we've long trained ourselves to accept as a matter of course, another place trying to reconcile opposing values does them harm - for the first person a child is taught to lie to, is themself.

The human subconscious has defenses against that, whether they be intentional or not I couldn't say, but by default nature usually wins that contest, proof of that lies in how any sufficient deception will not hold up over time, with extraordinarily rare exceptions they *will* give themselves away no matter how skilled they are - it takes an amazing amount of abuse and conditioning to make a human being inherently dishonest, and the resultant psychological damage usually leaves them ineffective at it.

Anyhows, for some, meditation is kind of like tuning in to listen to those impulses suppressed by social conditioning, seeking the voice of the lost and broken child within - or reaching deeper, and finding something.... darker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29
We all have the beast within, it's directly related to the HPA axis of the brain and the fight/freeze/flight instinct, those in tune with it can actually USE this to their advantage, and some military training/conditioning is a kind of halfassed, assbackwards attempt to teach this.

Which, brings me to why the gender gap in abuse survival.
See, the earlier you start screwing up a kids brain, the harder it becomes to fix, and if the damage gets done during critical developmental periods, barring early intervention it's all but permanent.
Beyond that, early damage is the hardest also cause it's festered and begun to calcify, become part of the personality itself, and that's a nightmare to deal with when it happens cause you're talking about the very foundation of WHO THEY ARE...
(And yes, I am bloody well aware this is why I will NEVER voluntarily disarm, ever.)

Which brings up gender roles and concepts in relation to when and how the damage is done, you see.
Boys we screw up right off the bat, teach them violence, might-makes-right, emotional suppression, cut them off from coping skills, discourage cooperation and encourage an often ruthless competitive streak which DOES have its Shadow counterpart down there as a secondary drive related to survival OUTSIDE of a group setting - it's not a primary drive, but if you suppress the primary drives, there are secondaries which take over, also a source of mental static and confusion with emotional overtones which causes acting out, a coping mechanism shut down by social pressure as

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FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:41 PM

Additional Points.

1. Toxic effect of a society poisoned by a ludicrously patriarchal and puritannical religion.

2. Push of expected gender "roles".

3. Imbalance of coping mechanisms which reduce potential violence, by gender, in regard to the information related above.

Now, that said, overall it does appear that fewer women than men choose violence as a problem solving manner, HOWEVER, those who do are in my experience decidedly more vicious and potentially more lethal, not so much due to it being "unexpected" from them, which I consider not much more than a halfassed excuse, but simply cause they happen to be damned good at it, chillingly so.

Echo is a case in point, coming from a fundamentalist family whos punishment for even the simplest transgression bordered on outright flogging, and she's way messed up because of it, violent in nature with a pain tolerance which makes stopping her when she goes spare very problematic.
Of course that's the *least* of her issues about it.

I suppose the question here is just how much is genetic/biological impulse, versus how much is expected social roles - compounded by the behavioral changes inspired by being psychologically impacted much later in the developmental cycle, which is a point of focus I think we've badly overlooked.

It does lead me to wonder, IF we held out on a male child and did NOT start into crushing their personhood immediately, how great would the personality deviation be ?

Just some thoughts.

-F

Oh, not Echo from Dollhouse, although that's where she cribbed the callsign from, but one of the folks I am working with on their own issues at this time.

SIGNYM

Monday, December 31, 2012 3:15 AM

Quote:
Yeah, and I didn't make up that fucking night at the fucking train station EITHER HK. Even if it didn't end as bad as it ends for some women..

Huh?

HKCAVALIER

Monday, December 31, 2012 3:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
HKC - this seems to be a very important topic for you. I'm on and off the board really erratically so I may have missed something most already know. And I really am not looking for an explanation for things I'm clueless about. I just want to say I think your voice is a valuable one that I really want to hear. That's all.

Hey kiki,

Thanks for that. I didn't mean to suggest that only rape survivors should be allowed to talk about rape. That's absolutely not how I feel. And, yeah, that's an undeservedly prevalent notion: only rape survivors getta talk about rape, only holocaust survivors getta talk about the holocaust, etc. I see that that would be an easy inference to make from what I said, but I don't believe it's necessary to experience a thing to be knowledgeable about that thing. Everyone in the human family gets to talk about our family issues and this stuff rises to that level for me. It's just that Byte's wild fantasies about the nature of rape and the motives of the rapist were clearly not anything she'd learned from credible sources or anything she'd actually experienced (sorry for the presumption but it did seem pretty damn clear to me) and I felt it was pretty deeply insulting for her to go on speculating on a level that felt, to me, like fanfic.

I meant to say, Hey, some folks have actually lived through this crap and you're making a mockery of it here.

I dunno. I prolly could have just kept my peace, but as you note above, this is a subject that I feel very strongly about and I have heard so much misinformation and pure fantasy on the subject over the years that it's made me...sensative, shall we say, on the subject.

I'm just getting so utterly sick of people thinking that problems like rape or mass murder begin and end with the actual rape or murder, so if we can find some way to "prevent" these eventualities alone--booby trap the vagina or station armed guards on the playground--then the problem will be solved. Makes me sick and, yeah, infuriates me.

Anyway, back to the original subject of the thread: serial killers, mass murderers and rapists all have something in common psychologically. They all rehearse and fantasize their crimes well in advance, sometimes for years, before actually carrying them out. Any man who rapes has wanted to rape for a very long time before he goes through with it, finally. Same with serial killers and child molesters. There's got to be a reason they have these fantasies. These are not common fantasies. Sure, someone may flippantly imagine "going postal" but they're not gonna rehearse it in their minds and plan for contingencies as the real criminals do. And a man may have a fleeting fantasy of violent sex without ever coming near to the act in reality. Something has to be bothering the would-be serial killer, mass murderer or rapist for a LONG ASS TIME for their rage to build to the point when they take action. And there's something very wrong with our culture and our humanity that no one in these (mostly) men's lives is there to help them before they take such extreme action.

I believe that if our culture were maybe just a little more relational, if conscious connection between people were just a little closer to the norm, instead of this perminent anonymity we see in the modern urban and cybernetic environments, we could prevent a lot of this kind of violence in the world. I believe the tipping point isn't really all that far away, but at the same time, if our culture refused to take the smallest step in that direction, we're screwed. And yes, it starts with treating children with respect as fellow human beings and recognizing abuse for what it is.

One place to start with men, as I've suggested before, is crying. If we as a culture forbade one or the other sex to shit or piss or to sweat, we could all see how that would lead to physical and probably psychological problems (as such privatio