Gender and Violence and Blame
POSTED BY: Magonsdaughter
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 25, 2026 20:14
VIEWED: 35151
PAGE 15 of 31
I don't think you're lying. Where did you get that idea? And my entire premise for talking to you and continuing to talk to you after all these years is that, of course, we both have something to say; that your opinion is valid. People whose opinions I do not value I do not talk to. Sometimes, certain things you say strike me as ill founded, or maybe thoughtless, even unkind (particularly toward yourself), but that never invalidates YOU. When two people disagree, there is more of an either/or at least structurally, but still, both people hold their own truths and nothing can change that.
I think you and I have a kind of Star Trek matter/anti-matter thing going on here. You are for yourself living proof that the evil in human beings comes from within, that despite love and kindness being given, people find it in themselves to do the worst possible things and that is our human nature in a nutshell (I am sorry if that is an unjust assessment of how you think, but it's the best approximation I have pending further inquiry). Even I can accept that there is some truth in that, but I am committed to the idea that it is not at all the whole story.
I, on the other hand, am a person who was violated and taught the most vile lies about humanity from the cradle and have found a way to heal in spite of all that and find the essential goodness in human beings. That is also a truth, a part of "the" truth, but I can acknowledge, much as it pains me, that that is not the whole story either.
But you and I are crusaders for our views of the world. We both have hard-won truths to share with this board, however incompatible our respective visions of the human story may be. You upset me and I upset you. But I'd be a total asshole if I didn't acknowledge that I have learned from our interactions over the years.
Strike me off your list if you must. It has occurred to me to do as much with you, but I always come back to my innate sense of kinship with you and my desire to somehow bridge our differences--without denying them--and find our common truth in all this.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hello,
If you're having an open discussion about a topic, and someone becomes so offended that they feel the need to leave, then something has gone wrong.
I regret this.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Hey Anthony,
Could you say more? To my mind whether one stays or leaves is deeply personal. Short of outright abusive language, do you think there's a way we can drive each other off that we as the "drivers" must take into account and curb?
Yes, there's the issue of "pushing people's buttons," but I gotta say I try to err on the side of allowing myself to risk pushing buttons, rather than hiding my thoughts to avoid a conflict. I believe in order to respect others, I must always remember that it is only a risk and not a mechanistic certainty that I'm gonna push people's buttons--to act as if it were a "fact" is to objectify the other person, in my opinion.
There have been plenty of times in my life when I've fretted that I was gonna push someone's buttons only to discover that I underestimated them. And I've learned that attempting to avoid button pushing generally leads to passive aggressive acting out. I don't find it possible, ultimately, to avoid conflict in an ongoing relationship--all we ever do is avoid TAKING RESPONSABILITY for the conflict that exists no matter how we handle it. Better to take responsability, acknowledge the conflict, to be plain and say what I mean and let us collectively come to a resolution if at all possible.
I'm sorry if this is a threadjack. For me it speaks directly to the issue of "blame" and personal boundaries that define what is violent/a violation and what is not/neutral.
Any thoughts?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Hello,
I think by dismissing Byte as having fantasyland thinking, pain was inflicted on her.
And I think that's not what we wanted to do here.
So this thread became a facet of the problem it was discussing.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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I'm glad this thread didn't die while I was away.
Just some general responses to some of the conversation -
I can't abide victim blaming. No one deserves or is responsible for violence being inflicted upon them, even though they may have made poor choices which may have resulted in being in the wrong place or with the wrong person.
The long winded discussions around protection through strength or martial arts are pretty immaterial as far as I am concerned, especially when it comes to family violence. The violence I experienced impacted on me psychologically, so I couldn't make good decisions, couldn't demand to be treated how I thought I should be. Because victim blaming is so prevalent in our society, I felt responsible for the violence, and I felt ashamed for putting up with it, for allowing it to happen. I was so shamed I hid it from most people, even loved ones, long after the relationship was over, because of responses like Hero's. It took me a long time to be able to talk about it and not feel dirty and sullied, or weak and pathetic, when I was never any of those things.
My then partner used violence and put downs and humiliation because he felt powerless and he hated feeling that I might have had any power over him. He had very sexist views in general which were not obvious when we met (except in hindsight) but basically his needs and wants were always more important than mine. When I think back on it, I was barely human to him, just an accessary, someone to make him feel better, meet his needs.
It was hard to leave because I had been told for so long that I was worthless and unlovable and mad that I had started to believe it.
All these things are features of a violent relationship, so its not just about standing up for yourself physically. There are many ways that power can be abused in a relationship that make it hard to leave.
http://www.dvhelppenrithregion.nsw.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content
&view=article&id=4&Itemid=107
The cycle of violence in domestic abuse
Domestic abuse falls into a common pattern, or cycle of violence:
Cycle of violenceAbuse – Your abusive partner lashes out with aggressive, belittling, or violent behavior. The abuse is a power play designed to show you "who is boss."
Guilt – After abusing you, your partner feels guilt, but not over what he's done. He’s more worried about the possibility of being caught and facing consequences for his abusive behavior.
Excuses – Your abuser rationalizes what he or she has done. The person may come up with a string of excuses or blame you for the abusive behavior—anything to avoid taking responsibility.
"Normal" behavior — The abuser does everything he can to regain control and keep the victim in the relationship. He may act as if nothing has happened, or he may turn on the charm. This peaceful honeymoon phase may give the victim hope that the abuser has really changed this time.
Fantasy and planning – Your abuser begins to fantasize about abusing you again. He spends a lot of time thinking about what you’ve done wrong and how he'll make you pay. Then he makes a plan for turning the fantasy of abuse into reality.
Set-up – Your abuser sets you up and puts his plan in motion, creating a situation where he can justify abusing you.
Power can be abused by any gender in a relationship, but I firmly believe males use physical violence more often than women do.
Men and women are not the same. We have different biologies with different purposes, and although both genders are capable of using violence/physical aggression, men do so more often. I know some of you will be offended by that, but statistically, biologically its just there.
A rape insert seems to me to be akin to pre rape. It just kind of boggles my mind. Sexual assault does not have to include penetration, and one will be a victim of sexual violence even if you have a rape device and the rapist loses his penis. I think this whole scenario is very stra
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But Anthony,
In our society there is a ton of fantasyland when it comes to discussions of rape. There's a huge disconnect between what happens in reality and what people tend to imagine happens. In the public imagination rape is this thing that happens to careless women walking home alone in low cut dresses when some burley oversexed stranger jumps out from behind a hedge and holds a knife to her throat. That was the kind of rape Byte seemed to be discussing and it's presumably the kind of rape a vaginal contraption would be intended to prevent.
But stranger rape accounts for only 30% of reported rapes and with less than 40 percent of rapes actually reported it's safe to assume that stranger rape is gonna account for a lot more of the actually reported rapes than acquaintance rape is. So, stranger rape probably accounts for a lot fewer than 30% of actual rapes. And the vast majority of rapes happen indoors, in homes, not always the victim's but generally known to the victim. Less than 10% happen on the street.
All that stuff about rape at gun point or knife point and "what's the fun for him raping a dead chick?" Byte was writing bears little or no resemblance to what actually goes on in the great majority of cases. And I found it to be a supremely calous way of talking about the subject. So I said fantasyland because it is the unjustly prevalent fantasy of what rape is, and a cruel mockery of what the majority of actual victims experience.
I understand that that is not a very sensative way of putting it, but Byte was talking so glibly about "dead chicks" and such that it hardly seemed like she was treating it as a serious discussion. It came across as if she was using the topic as an outlet for her misanthropic imagination. So I meant to say, For cryin' out loud, please, take this discussion more seriously than that!!! "Don't talk about rape as if you know what the heck you're talking about unless you know what the heck you're talking about."
I'm sorry, Anthony, Byte's discussion of rape was offensive to me. I'm not actually used to being offended and I didn't react as wisely or circumspectly as I generally do. It might have been wiser for me to inquire: "Do you have any idea how unrealistic these rape scenarios are? Rape, in the vast majority of cases, is a betrayal of trust and a violation of existing intimacies between people. Etc." but it would not have expressed my feelings on the matter. I was disgusted by what I was reading, and as the thread wore on it only got worse, so I felt the need to speak up.
I'm not sure right now how to take your suggestion that my being rude to Byte rose to the level of gendered abuse and blaming of the victim. I want to repudiate it, but I'll sit with it for now. If you would care to say more on this subject I will listen, but if not, I'm okay with that as well. Thanks for listening.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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TONY- BYTE "goes off" on people as if she were the only one deserving of respect. And if people try to make nice to her over HER outburst, she gets self-contradictory No! I want THIS!.... No, I DON'T want THIS!. IMHO dealing with Byte while she is in one of those moods is counterproductive, and defending her bad behavior is bad for her too. But that's just me; your mileage may vary.
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You know, continuing to talk about me when we no longer want to talk to each other is pretty bullshit. I'm trying to honor my side of the deal, but it's like you're trying to provoke me.
Okay, 1) I never once said that I think that stranger danger is the biggest threat in terms of rape. I had both a friend and a brother who had stuff happen to them from close relatives, and so just with that example that already outnumbers the one case I can think of to the contrary.
2) Stranger Danger, however, is NOT "complete fantasy." The man who sexually assaulted me was not the big strong guy with a weapon stereotype, apart from being black, but he was small, old, not very strong. But I did not know the man, he just grabbed me after I answered some questions about the train schedule.
And you offend people who that has actually happened to by dismissing it. So, goddamn you, stop talking about "actual victims" like nothing ever once happened to me and I don't know what it's like. Like it's "misanthropic fantasyland." Fuck that.
3) When I said "dead chicks" it was in the sense of trying to get into the mind of what a rapist would think in that situation. I was saying what they would say, to illustrate the point of how I think that scenario would go.
4) YOUR attitude towards ME was offensive, and you're still holding your hands out going, What'd I do? What'd I do? Byte didn't know what she was talking about so I told her to shut up, what's wrong with that?
And at this point, I no longer care about you, or whether you believe me or not, but it is enraging me that you think you can talk about me after all this. In short, don't you fucking dare.
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So, where WERE we in this thread????
HKCAV, CHRIS, AND TONY IIRC you all defended violent games and movies as "good clean fun". They don't get a "pass" from me because you think they're useful for catharsis and that they don't increase violent crime.
If I want to hit a perfect tennis stroke, or slalom with great form, ONE of the training techniques is to watch it done properly over and over. Your minds encodes the motion, the activity, and (ultimately) acceptance of the activity by repeated viewing. Seeing victims fall in front of you in first-person shooter games, or stealing cars and raping women (grand theft auto) has got to be unhealthy for ANY growing brain. And who are these games marketed to, mainly? Teenage males.
As I heard it, the current armed forces commanders are all happy about first-person shooter games because it fits in so nicely with drone piloting and advanced weaponry.
This may be one of those gender dividing lines... males, on the average, may want to activate their flight-flight hormones. Females may find such activation dangerous. It would be interesting to see by gender who purchases these games and the average levels of violence between purchasers and non-purchasers and between heavy users and non-users.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
TONY- BYTE "goes off" on people as if she were the only one deserving of respect. And if people try to make nice to her over HER outburst, she gets self-contradictory No! I want THIS!.... No, I DON'T want THIS!. IMHO dealing with Byte while she is in one of those moods is counterproductive, and defending her bad behavior is bad for her too. But that's just me; your mileage may vary.
I agree with Sig, Anthony. Defending me is a pointless endeavor. It only makes things worse for me, and whoever is trying to defend me. I've given up on expecting respect. I can't even expect to convince people that my experiences happened.
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