Guns, Guns, Guns.
POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Monday, June 30, 2025 05:56
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Quote:
Niki- You have said that no amount of training should allow an exception to the ban. Then you say that police have the training needed to use banned weapons. You say that the banned weapons have no self defense value, and then say that police need the weapons to overcome robbers. There is a disconnect here.
There is no disconnect. I said no amount of training of individual citizens. Police training is done repeatedly, they are regulated and tested, it's their job to know the ins and outs of the law, when to shoot, who to shoot, and they face such situations with far more regularity than the average citizen ever faces them at all.
The average citizen, however much training they got, would not use that training on a regular basis, would not have to face testing and retraining on a regular basis, and has little knowledge of the law. You are saying there is no difference between policemen and average citizens. That is a false equivalency.
The same is true for self-defense. Aside from the fact that I DID NOT SAY the banned weapons had no value as far as self-defense for the police, I said, as you noted, when it comes to robbers. Beyond that, I seem to recall an instance in L.A. where the robbers were better armed than the police...yes, here it is on Wikipedia:Quote:
Local patrol officers at the time were typically armed with their personal 9 mm or .38 Special pistols, with some having a 12-gauge shotgun available in their cars. Phillips and Matasareanu carried illegally modified fully automatic AKMs and an AR-15 rifle with high capacity drum magazines and ammunition capable of penetrating police body armor. They also wore body armor of their own. Since the police handguns could not penetrate the bank robbers' body armor, the patrol officers' bullets were ineffective. SWAT eventually arrived with rifles powerful enough to penetrate the body armor. Several officers also appropriated AR-15 rifles from a nearby firearms dealer. The incident sparked debate on the need for patrol officers to upgrade their capabilities in similar situations in the future.
Because of the large number of injuries, rounds fired, weapons used, and overall length of the shootout, it is regarded as one of the longest and bloodiest events in US police history. This incident would later lead to California enforcing a highly restrictive law on firearms, including the controversial "10-round magazine-only" law for most firearms owned by state residents.
So you would rather have the police LEGALLY restricted to lesser weapons because that's what the citizenry is LEGALLY allowed to have--or you would rather have ALL the citizenry allowed to have assault weapons because that's what the police have. The police have to deal with people who have illegal weapons; they should have superior force to deal with them. Regular citizens do not need the assault weapons for any reason.
Note that even the police restrict those sorts of weapons to their SWAT teams, so obviously even they believe assault weapons aren't a good thing to have every regular policeman carry. But you apparently want to arm them all that way, as well as any citizen who wants to be equally armed?
If you cannot see the contradictions in the above, there are no grounds for communication. I've heard you use this argument before and, in my opinion, this is one of the signs of your bias, that you can never see the difference. You CHOOSE to equate citizens with police, and I recognize that some of your thinking comes from distrust of police and government. But I find it frustrating that you cannot see the difference between the police forces we train to protect us and the average man on the street--or even a well-trained citizen. There is a difference.
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By the way, Anthony. You dissed someone's remark about guns and "manhood", either in this thread or another. I would like to offer as my rebuttal an ADVERTISEMENT for the AR-15:
That SHOULD settle the issue. If the company MANUFACTURING the Bushmaster chooses to ADVERTISE it as something which makes men more "manly", then they must believe (or recognize that people who would be attracted to the gun believe) it is related to their "manhood". N'est-ce pas?
ETA: And if you think THIS advertisement doesn't appeal to the sort of person who imagines himself some kind of "soldier":
Then what can I say?
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Quote:
That SHOULD settle the issue. If the company MANUFACTURING the Bushmaster chooses to ADVERTISE it as something which makes men more "manly", then they must believe (or recognize that people who would be attracted to the gun believe) it is related to their "manhood". N'est-ce pas?
Hello,
Does that mean if I find advertisements for products that are sexist, then I can make misogynistic, sexist statements about women and they will be validated by the advertisement?
What a rediculous argument.
You should find such an advertisent as inappropriate as I do. Instead, you embrace it as the proper way to think about men. And you extrapolate from it that it is appropriate to say that I look at myself in the mirror and stroke my penis-stand-in firearms in masturbatory fashion? When did you start getting your social standards from the Bushmaster company?
If colorful metaphors and impossible body positions were ever warranted, they'd be warranted now.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:
Beyond that, I seem to recall an instance in L.A. where the robbers were better armed than the police...yes, here it is on Wikipedia:
Hello,
If you read the rest of that article, you'll learn that the robbers were taken out by being shot in unarmored parts of their bodies. No assault rifles were actually used to penetrate their armor. There was a much more deadly incident in Florida with the FBI and bank robbers. FBI agents actually died. They took out the shooter with conventional arms and reassessed what caliber they should carry.
Even if you decide a rifle is needed, it need not be the styles of rifles you wish to ban. They can choose from types of rifles you are satisfied to leave available for public consumption.
A weapon can't be so unsafe that it needs to be removed from ownership, and then be put into the hands of half a million people who live and work in the communities that need protection from these weapons.
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Hey Niki,
Do you really, I mean, REALLY, think our friend Anthony T of Arizona is the kind of man who holds his gun up in the mirror and fondles the thing? How do you not realize how utterly offensive that is to say about anyone whom you otherwise seem to respect? Of course Anthony is aware of the phallic nature of pistols. Who isn't?
Please, do you honestly think you are gonna have any more luck convincing Anthony that he's sexually fetishizing his firearms, than he has had convincing you that the right to bear arms is the one which safeguards all the rest?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:Quote:
the ability to defend themselves? That's truly insane, and talk about stigmatizing us!
Agreed. I said before, I'm not so sure the problem here is mental illness in general, but people with mental illness at some kind of breaking point. I think we need to address the issues that drive people to that breaking point.
Hello,
I think I've heard "is a danger to themselves or others" before. That seems like a pretty common-sense measure of dangerous mental illness.
You heard it from me, at least. I know that we'll run into trouble when called upon to determine the criteria for "danger to themselves and others", but it seems a start.
For example, 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4)states that "It shall be unlawful for any person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has
been committed to a mental institution; to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922
18 U.S.C. 922(g) is an interesting read, as it lays out who is prohibited from posessing a firearm, including convicted felons, drug abusers, illegal aliens, folks under a restraining order, or those convicted of domestic violence. A good bit of the stuff folks talk about when they mention getting guns out of the hands of criminals is already in Section 922.
Also interesting is that Federal prosecutions for violations of 18 U.S.C. 922 (all of it, not just (g)), have dropped by 28% between 2006 and 2010. extrapolating from the figures in the report cited below, there were around 7,000 Sect. 922 prosecutions in 2011. When you figure how many felons, drug abusers, etc. are probably arrested while in possession of a firearm every year, it makes you kind'a wonder.
http://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/249/
"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
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I own more guns than I can easily count.
But most are phasers, some are Galactica & Star Wars blasters, three are airsoft Bond PPK's.
To me, guns are props from movies & TV, and as violent as my upbringing was, I've never felt the need for a projectile weapon that can actually put a hole in anyone.
I do however own 3 real weapons- a tonfa, a pair of nunchaku and a Samurai sword, all hard to misfire or cause multiple deaths in seconds with.
The whole 'gun culture' thing is lost on me.
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Hello,
I grant you, it's much harder to kill multiple people with a Samurai sword (katana).
That being said, a Samurai sword is a tool explicitly designed to kill people. This is one criteria oft proposed for the banning of weapons.
ETA: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501184/Samurai-swords-banned-s
pate-horrific-sword-murders.html
--Anthony
Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz
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Quote:Wow. So when people start being killed by forks, those will be outlawed as well...
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,
I grant you, it's much harder to kill multiple people with a Samurai sword (katana).
That being said, a Samurai sword is a tool explicitly designed to kill people. This is one criteria oft proposed for the banning of weapons.
ETA: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501184/Samurai-swords-banned-s
pate-horrific-sword-murders.html
I once got stopped by a police officer who searched my backpack & asked me why I was in possession of a pair of scissors. Hair cutting, DUDE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
"It shall be unlawful for any person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has
been committed to a mental institution; to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."
And now pens must be banned.
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