Stand with Arizona
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Sunday, May 16, 2010 21:28
VIEWED: 15979
PAGE 10 of 18
MomCarp, that's a load of BS. I live in Texas. You might have heard of it; we have a few illegals here, to put it mildly. And I spent more than 25 years working in print shops. I've known illegals, and I've had illegals gunning for my job. I fought back by being one of the best printers in an award-winning shop.
If you can't compete with the illegals, that sounds like an issue with employers who are hiring illegals and should be held legally responsible, and it sounds like you're just not doing your job well enough to set yourself apart from crews who'll do the job for less. Sometimes you have to compete by doing a BETTER job, not a cheaper one. People will still pay for quality, and if you can't make it, then as you've said, I have no sympathy. I've competed with illegals, and I've beaten them.
And in a free market, should they NOT be allowed to compete against you for the customer's dollars? If you can't compete, isn't that YOUR problem, not theirs? Now you want to round people up because they're forcing you to work harder, while the righties say the only way to make it in America is through hard work. Aren't you really upset that these illegals are doing a better job of chasing the American Dream than you are?
You righties confuse me. You SAY you want free trade and free market economies, then you turn around and say you can't compete in a free market against people who are willing to underbid you. If you obeyed your own beliefs, you'd fold up shop and move on to where you CAN compete, because the market where you are is obviously saturated.
At the same time, the right in general WILL NOT support tougher sanctions on employers or tougher regulations to make it harder to hire illegals in the first place. Rather than take away their incentive to come here, you'd rather waste time and money on a never-ending quest to round them all up and try to send them home.
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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Arizonas in a tough spot.. but ultimately, i think a state has the right to enforce immigration policy. if anyone has the say, its the people of Arizona. besides, the federal government isnt doing it, because it doesnt intend to. the federal government will just as soon give Arizona over to the UN or mexico..
ill tell you what i wont do.. and thats accept a microchipped ID card, so that i as a citizen can be monitored 24-7
you know what i think would be a good compromise? bring down the entitlement/wellfare state/government regulatory structure, and maybe then we can allow unfettered immigration and citizenship.
what are these people protesting?? the right to live here, without applying for citizenship? the problem isnt tourists or even documented workers- the problem is illegal immigration(ie people living or settling here, without citizenship)! the issue has become citizenship, and the accompanying social services/entitlements that come with it
this country has always had a history of migrant workers.. going back, we were less dependant on government to subsist. this is why the concept of liberty is so important- you can work wherever, educate wherever, consume whatever! just dont come crawling to the collective(government) if you make some poor choices along the way. prior to this century, thats how people DID survive.. and immigration wasnt an issue. this is what im saying.. the status of citizenship has changed.
those of you on the left, what do you want? you say this bill is racist, is it racist to enforce immigration laws? you want to allow these people to live here freely, without documentation. as a libertarian i get that! i want free trade and freedom of choice. however on the the other hand you want a massive public safety net that you feel everyone should contribute to. which is it? because the math will not add up.
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By the way, don't cry too much over losing SoCal and Arizona to Mexico. They already owned it, and just let us borrow it for a few generations. Or, if you're of another stripe, we stole it fair and square. And they're stealing it back. It's all good, as long as you're on the winning side, but it kinda sucks when you lose, huh?
Mike
"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions
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This law is not an infringement of the 4th amendment (which applies to legal citizens, anyway)
It is an attempt to enforce existing law.
Let's be clear on one point,since 1950something, anyone visiting this country is required to carry paperwork stating the purpose of their presence here. Seems pretty fair.
The number of times I've been pulled over for a burned out tail light, driving 100mph or whatever; invariably the officer asks for paperwork. I don't feel that this is in violation of my civil liberties.
I am a mom, and a carp, you can call me either.
Nice to meet you...
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"The ones who are crying "Arizona facist state!" have never been directly affected by illegals, and I have no sympathy."
Hello,
Either the problem is as bad as you suggest, and as a Phoenix resident, I *must* have been directly affected by illegals... and still think the law is wrong...
Or the fact that I *haven't* suffered at the hands of these illegals means that there's really not that much of a problem.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Meh, I made a rather reasonable and practical set of suggestions on this in another thread, only to have it utterly ignored, which is the usual response for that kinda thing, so I will simply point out that this policy is racist and unconstitutional, and therefore it doesn't matter whether 1%, 50% or even 100% of the people of Arizona support it, it's still racist and unconstitutional - human rights bein universal and applying to either everyone, or no one.
So, in regards to the thread title, I will borrow a quote from Captain America which seems ever so appropriate to the situation at hand.
"No. YOU move."
-Frem
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I am always confused when someone uses the term "unconstitutional" in connection with citizens of another country. How does our constitution apply to citizens of Mexico, South America, etc.?
An American can never become a Mexican citizen (please correct me if I'm wrong) own property, vote, or collect public assistance.
In America, citizens of other countries march through the streets by the thousands demanding American citizenship. Is there a bit of a disparity here?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
If you can't compete with the illegals, that sounds like an issue with employers who are hiring illegals and should be held legally responsible
force a private businessmen to pay a wage above what someone else might work for? instead of obstructing the free market forces, why not remove these excessive mandates and regulations and let people decide for themselves where they want to work and spend their money?
Quote:
and it sounds like you're just not doing your job well enough to set yourself apart from crews who'll do the job for less. Sometimes you have to compete by doing a BETTER job, not a cheaper one. People will still pay for quality, and if you can't make it, then as you've said, I have no sympathy. I've competed with illegals, and I've beaten them.
see, thats exactly why we should let the free market decide these things, and not politicians
Quote:
And in a free market, should they NOT be allowed to compete against you for the customer's dollars? If you can't compete, isn't that YOUR problem, not theirs? Now you want to round people up because they're forcing you to work harder, while the righties say the only way to make it in America is through hard work. Aren't you really upset that these illegals are doing a better job of chasing the American Dream than you are?
i think its less the competition for jobs(although thats part of the resentment), but more so the burden on social services. all things being equal, i think Americans are willing to compete for work. but paying into an ever demanding safety net, only for that money to be dispersed to people who just cannot contribute equally is just completely unfair and unsustainable; and im not someone who whines about 'fairness' very often..
Quote:
You righties confuse me. You SAY you want free trade and free market economies, then you turn around and say you can't compete in a free market against people who are willing to underbid you. If you obeyed your own beliefs, you'd fold up shop and move on to where you CAN compete, because the market where you are is obviously saturated.
thats true, and i think thats a bit hypocritical too. but at the same time, i can sympathize, if only in that American business are put under such a heavy tax/regulatory burden, that it doesnt always 'pay' anymore to take the straight and narrow. once again, i just think when the government comes in and price fixes(nevermind the govt caused inflation), it just puts Americans at yet another disadvantage. but i agree, as you said, competition is the key to the free market
Quote:
At the same time, the right in general WILL NOT support tougher sanctions on employers or tougher regulations to make it harder to hire illegals in the first place. Rather than take away their incentive to come here, you'd rather waste time and money on a never-ending quest to round them all up and try to send them home.
change the minimum wage laws, and you take away the incentive to hire illegals. if you punish the employers, they wont hire anybody! the company doesnt exist for the employees, it exists for the owner/shareholders/investors. the government may want to come in and take it over, and force the company to be a harbinger of social equality, but that doesnt make it so
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Have you ever been in close proximity (as in a work situation) to an undocumented, non English speaking person for 8 hours? Or issued directions to workers in Spanish because you were the only person on a jobsite who spoke English?
Many Americans are egocentric in that they believe everyone should speak English; but the same can be said of "immigrants" who refuse to learn English.
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sorry Frem, i never saw the suggestions. if i find a minute ill hunt them down.. (or you can just refresh our memories)
but as for 'human rights', in recent history thats been a codeword for 'entitlements'. people dont have the 'right' to healthcare. people dont have the 'right' to housing, and they certainly arent entitled to demand citizenship anywhere they want. we have rights as individuals, which means we have liberties that are granted to us as sovereign beings. but one of those is not to invade someone elses property and demand their assets. now if they want to declare war against the U.S., they can legitimately reclaim this land. but otherwise...
we already have a massive government that is unsustainable! we dont need more people on the wellfare rolls... and thats all i can think of. bring down the wellfare/entitlement state, and we can talk about anarchy
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